Celeste illuminates the complexities of equity by design, exploring barriers, bias, and the urgent need for authentic inclusion—advocating a paradigm where individual differences are not only recognised, but leveraged for collective success.
In this episode of Inclusion Bites, Joanne Lockwood speaks with Celeste Warren about equity by design, the barriers that prevent people from thriving, and the practical work required to build more inclusive organisations.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for boldconversations that spark change. I'm JoanneLockwood, your guide on this journey of explorationinto the heart of inclusion, belonging and societaltransformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes tocreate a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs,but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncoverthe unseen, challenge the status quo and sharestories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in?Whether you're sipping your morning coffee orwinding down after a long day, let's connect, reflectand inspire action together. Don't forget, you can bepart of the conversation too. Reach out to[email protected] to share yourinsights or to join me on the show. So adjustyour earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite thespark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites.And today is episode 212 with the titleEquity by Design. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcomeCeleste Warren. Celeste is a diversity, equity andinclusion strategist, an author, speaker and the founderof Celeste Warren Consulting, with over three decades of experiencehelping organisations embed equity and build inclusive culturesthat drive meaningful and sustainable outcomes. When I asked Celeste to
Joanne Lockwoodhost
describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability to connect heartand and strategy, turning complex ideas about equity and inclusioninto clear, actionable models that leaders can implement today.Hello, Celeste, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for
Celeste Warrenguest
the invitation. I'm glad to be here, absolute pleasure. We're having a quick chit
Joanne Lockwoodhost
chat earlier in the. In the green room. And whereabouts in the world are younow? I am in, outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's about two and a half
Celeste Warrenguest
hours from New York City and on the east coast of the United Statesand it is absolutely freezing here. We've had a very, very coldsnap that is a little bit unusual for this part of the country but,but we're hanging in there, trying to stay warm. But I'm originally from,from Pennsylvania, the state of Pennsylvania, but western Pennsylvania,which is a small steel mill town. Andmy father was the first black teacher, blackprincipal in that area. And, and so, you know, my,I guess we call it origin storey or backstory. I grew up in ahousehold. There were five kids, mom and dad, and as I said, my dadwas the first black teacher, first black principal in that area.And every day that he would come home, my mom would sayat the dinner table, you know, hey honey, how was your day? And that wouldstart a conversation that really was ingrainedin me as a child. I all the way through my adultjourney and he would talk about the challenges that he faced beingthe first black man, you know, in this area. And, you know, what he hadto go through, some of the obstacles, some of the barriers, and then hedidn't just sit there at the dinner table andcomplain. He then would say, and here's what I did about it.Because he wanted to teach us, his children, that the colour ofyour skin, your gender, how you identify is. It may causeyou problems throughout life, challenges throughout life, but don't letthat stop you from being able to achieve whatever it is that you desire toachieve. And that was sort of. I got a front row seat tothat my entire childhood and teenageyears. And that just was, if you can imagine, just ingrainedin me throughout my formative years. That's sort ofwhat's grounded me into the work that I am doing today.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Wow, that's a fascinating backstory in origin. It's.I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I think you've had whatsounds like a really good foundational upbringing around some of thegood principles of what it is in the world. And I sometimes wonder whetherour modern generation are being brought up with thatlevel of resilience and robustness to be able to challenge and stand up.And maybe it's our social media world, maybe it's the way we're bringing peopleup now. We seem to be very quick to react and weaponize our particularcharacteristic rather than actually say, I've got this now, how can I make.
Celeste Warrenguest
Yeah, yeah, you know, well, we, you know, coming up for those of us thatare on that other side of 50, we didn't have social media, wedidn't have the Internet, we didn't have, you know, email, we didn't have thetechnology that could connect people like they do today,like my children do today. And also, too, is that sortof, you know, you talked about that reaction, being able to, I mean, justreacting to stuff immediately without sort of thinking aboutit and that. And sometimes, you know, you getthat keyboard courage and you put stuff out therewithout really filtering it and thinking through it. And I think growing up,we had the opportunity to think things through,at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, thinkabout the consequences of your actions. Andthat sort of just sort of just stayed with us. And we didn't have achoice because there was nothing sort of quick in the momentthat from a technology standpoint that would, that would putthings out there across the globe, you know, like the Internet doesnow. And like social media, you might react in the moment, but the only personthat would see it is people that are around four or five people, maybe thatare around you. So it was a very different time than it is right now.You know, there's good and there's also, you know,opportunities as well. But I just think that growing up the wayI did, when I did, where I did, with those circumstances,really helped me from a foundational standpoint, because itreally taught me, okay, you are a black woman in the worldtoday, and there are going to be challenges, there are going tobe obstacles. You know, he didn't paint the world as rosy, youknow, but he also said, I don't ever want you to use that as anexcuse as to why you can't achieve throughout your life.That's kind of the lesson that he. That he taught us by theconversation that he would have at the dinner table. And Ithought that was really, really important. I remember onestory that he told me that just has always stuck with me. I wasin. I was home for college, and he was telling me a story abouthow when he. After he got his master's degree in education andhe. He got his master's degree in English, and so he was hired atthe school, but they didn't hire him as an English teacher.They hired him as a gym teacher in the gymnasium, and theydidn't have a gymnasium. That's the sad thing about it. And sohe had to teach the students in the parking lot of the school.And so he's teaching the kids, you know, physical educationand all of that. And. And when he would be out there, the. The kidsthat he was teaching, the parents of those children would come and parktheir cars in the parking lot and watch him as he was teaching these kids,and he's telling me the story. And I was kind of like getting angry, like,well, what did they think you were going to do to their children? And hesaid, well, I don't know. He said, you know, I was a black teacher. They.They weren't used to black teachers. And so they. I said, did you getangry? Did, like, what did you do? And he said, no, I didn't get angry.I just taught the kids. I did my job. And then he said, youknow what happened? One by one, those cars went away till itgot to a point where no parents felt a need to come and parktheir cars and watch me teach their kids. They. They then,they finally built a gymnasium. And then eventually heended up an opening occurred in the English department andhe was able to teach English and then, you know, his careerthroughout administration as well. That story kind ofstuck with me because he overcame the adversity of thoseparents not trusting him to teach their kids by just doinghis job and doing it well until they eventually, probablythe kids probably went home and told their parents, like,why are you coming and parking there and watching, youknow, Mr. Phillips, that's, that's crazy. He's a niceteacher, he's very good. And we're learning a lot from himabout physical education and how to stay healthy andetcetera, etcetera. And so he had, in that process, he'sbuilt the trust of those students and then ultimately builtthe trust of the parents as well. And that story has stuckwith me for decades. And it's been a lesson around how I goabout doing what I do and have done throughout my career.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
In a way, that's building your own affinity bias, isn't it? Because if wedon't know people, they're in and out group, we don't trust them, we don'twant to communicate with them, we don't engage with them, we don't valuethem. But as soon as you start to become comfortable and know someone'sstory, no one's capability, then they become part of your in group andthen you can start to trust and engage. It sounds like that's whathappened in that scenario where at first this person was an Other.They're on the outside, there's no trust. And it took that pattern of thisperson seems to be, okay, I'll trust them, you trust them, we're alltrusting them. No, there's no story here, we can move on. And it'sbuilding that affinity bias, if you like, proactively to bring thatperson into your circle of trust, isn't it? That's exactly it. And
Celeste Warrenguest
he didn't do anything differently. He didn't, you know, because I can, you know,you can imagine someone with a different temperament might have walked upto those parents in the car and banged on the window. What are you doing?And why are you watching me? And that, that definitely was not thetemperament of my dad, but he just did his joband, and instilled trust and with, with everyone.And you're exact, you're exactly right to the point when he passed awayin 20, about. Well, it's been close to eightyears now. When he passed away, they lined the streetswhen we were going from the, the church to the cemetery.They Lined the streets, the students lined the streets in front of theschool to say goodbye to him. And he had been retired from the school systemfor many, many years at that point. And they actuallynamed, they renamed the elementary school after him.And so, yeah, and so it's, it's, you know, when you talk aboutlegacy, when you talk about that, that the characteristics andthe behaviours and the mindset of someone who, in hisown way, he was bringing about change, he was bringingabout societal change, organisational change throughout his career,because he was paving the way for others to be able to come in afterhim and do what he did in that. In that school district andin, in the community as well. I'm just trying to phrase this into, into
Joanne Lockwoodhost
the thinking that it seems such a.It's a burden on peoplewho are from marginalised, minority, voiceless backgrounds. However you want todescribe individuals, it's incumbent upon them to behave in a waythat makes them acceptable to others in order so they can get thechange acted. Whereas if you were from a majoritybackground, you would just be you and not have to think about all this, notcarry the weight of responsibility or whiteness on your shoulders. You justare. Whereas as soon as you've got a characteristic, you then represent.And that's a real burden that minority people face. Is it? Is it? Oh, yeah,
Celeste Warrenguest
it was hugely that way for decades, well,probably centuries, but. But it was very much that was sortof the weight that we carried. And, you know, you fill in the blank ofmarginalised group, whatever identity that. That was the weight. Ithink now what we're trying to teachindividuals is be you don't try to carry thatweight because that, that's unfair. You know, one of the things that Iknow, my father knew, my grandfather knew and grandmother and motherwas that was unfair for us to have to carry that weightthroughout our lives. You know, life is. Can be hard enoughwithout having to have to carry that weight of. You have to
Celeste Warrenguest
make sure you're doing, especially in this day and age, at least in the UnitedStates, Black women are really, you know, it's just verychallenging right now with the, the job situationbeing what it is. Black women are the ones that are losing themost as far as jobs in the United States. And there'sthat, there's that tightropethat you're walking regardless of your identity, if you're in aminority group. But it's tightrope of, well, I wantto be respected for who I am. I can'tact in a certain way because Then I will fall intothe stereotype of that they have for people whoidentify as I do. And so I need to make sure I'm, like, walking thisthin line. And it's very exhausting. It's so exhausting.And so, you know, taking the time to say, thisis me, this is who I am, and, you know, not in a waythat's disrespectful to yourself or to others, but justbasically saying, this is what I bring to the table. This is the value thatI bring. This is who I am. And I bring a valuethat will benefit, whether it be an organisation or a team or whateverthe entity is. But I bring a value becauseof who I am. And we need to kind of flip the switch a bit.I have a T shirt that I just got. I saw it. Where did Isee it? I think I saw it on Instagram and I was like, I gotto have that. And it has be you. The world will adjust.And I thought, oh, how nice is that? That? And it's just. That's thelesson that I like to teach young, young people when I talk to studentsat universities and my own children who are, you know, in their20s, is be you. Because if you try tobe somebody else, especially in an organisation, you know, youcome to a company and you. You sort of act likeyou think they want you to act, that isexhausting. You can't do that for a sustained period of time. It's just not sustainable.And so make sure that you are yourself because you bringa value to whatever entity, organisation, group, team that you're.That you're entering in. And if you didn't, then they wouldn't have brought youin. And so make sure that you always understand that and hold your head uphigh and contribute in the best way that you know how to contribute.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You're so right about this being yourself. And I think we talk alot these days about authenticity, don't we? The. The fact that there's a fine linebetween being authentic and being unfiltered, isn't there? You see,you need to be accountable for your authenticity as well. Oh,
Celeste Warrenguest
absolutely. You know, I. When I talk with folks, I was 10years as a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer with a Fortune 50 company,and one of the things that I would get challenged sometimesby folks is like, well, I want to be my true self. I want tobe my authentic self. And I said, it's,yes, we want you to be your authentic self because you bring valueto the organisation, but understand that you are in anorganisation. And that organisation, the foundations of thatorganisation, is treating people with dignity and respect. And if thetrue you isn't someone who can treat people with dignity andrespect, well, that you needs to go somewhere else,because that's not foundationally the culture that we, that wenurture within the organisation. And so there's a difference between,I like to say there's a difference between business casualwear and come as you are. And business casualis, you know, still, stillprofessional, but it, but it's, it's, it'scomfortable for you. So you can think, you know, in the workplace andbe productive, but come as you are. As you walk out of bed andyou come work with flip flops and shorts on. That's not the same thing. Andso it's exactly what you said about the filter. You have aresponsibility and accountability to, yes, speak yourmind, but do it in a way that you still maintaindignity and respect of your colleagues. One of the challenges I see in the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
world at the moment is the DEI pushback or the DEI must die type typesort of rhetoric that's out there, that what seems to be happening isthe people who are the majority, the incumbent, the monoculture,whatever it may be, are now saying, well, hang on a minute, peoplekeep telling me I can't do this, I can't behave that way, I've got tobehave in a certain way and why can't I be authentic? Why can't I bemyself? Why can't I have my views? Everybody I know has similar viewsto me. I'm not in a minority. And what we, what we seem to bedoing here is that in the situation where we're almost competingwith whose views are palatable in our organisations, in society,how do we rationalise those two perspectives? Where does the powerand the culture lie there? Well, I think
Celeste Warrenguest
that, first of all, people have different perspectives anddifferent views. That's the world that we live in and we've always lived inthat world. Everybody has different perspectives, different ideas, differentbeliefs, and that's fine. But you have to be ableto have productive conversations about those differentperspectives in a way that respects otherpeople's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm otherpeople in a way that doesn't belittle other people in away that doesn't say that because you believe thator you feel that you're less than and you don't countand you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything.And that's where I think sometimes people Sort of lose perspectivebecause you and I can have a great discussion about somethingand we can decide, agree to disagree and walk awayand still be colleagues and associates. And that's the piece that I thinkthat we've forgotten. And another thing too is, you know, with diversity,equity, inclusion, they just, they have looked at thisas something that it isn't. So diversity is simplydifferences in people. Those you can see and those you can't see.Organisations are not run by robots, most of them, butrobots were created by humans. So the human elementis in every organisation, every ecosystem. And so that'sdiversity. The differences in all those, in all those people.Inclusion is, you have to surround them with thisculture that all of those differencescan be leveraged in a way that gets you to thiscollective purpose. And if we were talking about an organisation, that collectivepurpose would be the mission or the vision of that organisation. Butequity then is, okay, how do I take all of these people withall these different skills, capabilities, identities,backgrounds, life experiences, how do I take all of thesepeople with all these differences and get them to this collectivepurpose? Well, you do that through acts of equity. You meet peoplewhere they are, understand all of those differences that areembodied in that person. What are some of the obstacles and barriers that get inthe way from them being able to aspire to whatever it is that theyaspire to get to. And then once you understand that, then youbuild the steps to get them to that collective purpose.And some of those steps are going to be such that they're going tobenefit 80% of the people. And then some of those steps have to be sortof tailored a bit so you can meet a person where they are and getthem to that collective purpose. And that's kind of how Ipragmatically try to explain diversity, equity, inclusion. It'snot about preferential treatment for one group over another.It's simply about giving people what it is they need to haveaccess to opportunities. And that's where the, the,
Celeste Warrenguest
the rub gets. Because if one person's getting something andanother person's not getting it, then it's like, oh, okay,you're getting something and I'm not. And it's, it's in thespirit of getting to this access and these opportunities andeverybody doesn't come from the same place. And so you got tolook at people individually as individuals and help them toget to where it is that, that, that they, they want to get to. AndI think that's, you know, that's one thing and then anotherThing, Joanne, is when, when people say, you know, DEI, thefirst thing that's going through their head is that you'relowering the standard of performance or quality of a role thatthat person is gone into. You know, I always, I used to get inconversations if I'm sitting in a room and there's therecruiter and then there's the hiring manager, and therecruiter would inevitably say something like, well, I wantto make sure that you have a qual. A diverse candidate slate. SoI'm bringing you candidates from all different walks of lifeto choose from for your role. And then the hiring manager might say
Celeste Warrenguest
something like, well, I want to make sure that they're, you know, they're qualified forthe role. And I would politely stop the conversation there andsay to the manager, well, why did you feel a need to saythat? After the recruiter said, I want to make sure that I'm bringingyou a slate of candidates that are from all different walks of life,all different identities, et cetera. And they would, you know, him and hawand sort of not really answer the question. And I said,because, first of all, would you. After you sat. Because, you know, usually this ishalfway through the meeting. It's like after you sat through this meeting and you've giventhe recruiter the skills, the capabilities, the years ofexperience, the type of capabilities and competencies that you need that they needto have years of experience that they need to have for the role, we've hadthis, this conversation. And then you say, well, I want to makesure that the person's qualified after they said that. And so your,your assumption and your bias is because they said they wanted,they're going to bring in diverse candidates that they're, they're inferiorand they're. But they're or not qualified for the role that you have.That's an insult to the recruiter because their job is tobring you candidates for your role that meet thequalifications that you've outlined in your conversation. But thething that you don't realise is those skills, those capabilities,those experiences, they can be embodied inall kinds of different identities. And a lotof times, depending on the, the, the hiring manager, I'll say, well, close youreyes. And I want you to envision the perfect candidate for your role.What, what do they look like? And they, and they stop. Because thenit's like, okay, well, they're picturing this white male, 40 to 60 yearsold, and it's like that's when it starts to dawn on themthat, okay, okay, I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying, Celeste. Andit's like you need to understand that, you know, number one, you're insultingthe recruiter. You're trying to say that they don't know how to do their job.Number two, the skills and capabilities and experiences that you identified.Look. Can be embodied in people that have all different types of identities.And three, the perfect person doesn't necessarily look the way youdo. And having that conversation with them really helps. It's a teachingmoment, it's a learning moment. But. But it's necessary becauseotherwise they'll continue doing that in otherroles that they have. And then other people are watching them too, you know, maybewatching them within earshot of the whole. The whole. I hear that all the time.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
This is belief that hiring for diversity means hiring for second bestbecause you're hiring somebody who is perceived to be less competent becausethey're diverse. Yes. And that is exactly what you're describingthere. And there's this almost like this. If it wasn't for this diversity hiring, thewhite guy would get it. Now we're having to say, Hank, why can't the whiteguy have it? He must be the best person for the job. This incumbency stillplays out in many, many organisations. And what you're describing there, and you'reright, it's how do we get this across and how do we. How do weget people to see past those default demographics and say.Because often when you're developing the job spec and doing your recruitmentmarketing, as you say, you've got this avatar of the perfect candidate in your head,and that's often based on the demographic of the person who's thinking about itat the time. It's, how do we reevaluate the idealcandidate where we're valuing some of those lived experiencetraits and that you maybe don't get with another characteristic. And youalmost like saying, well, actually, if we're doing some balanced metrics here, empathy,compassion, lived, experienceable to communities, whatever it may be,is actually more important than pure technical skill, becauseactually, I need some personality in there as well. So we've got to try andrebalance the job spec, haven't we? Yes. Yeah. And you know, the
Celeste Warrenguest
example that I like to use is we've all seen that illustrationby Deloitte where there's three individuals and they're all. Inthe first illustration, three individuals and they're all standing on one rockand they're. They're in front of the fence the person on the rightcannot see over the fence with the one rock. The person in the middle canbarely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over thefence. Then you go, and they all have one rock. So hey, everything
Celeste Warrenguest
is good, right? But still the two people to the rightcan't see over the fence. And so then you get to the second illustration. Theperson on the right has been given two additional rocks, the person in the middlehas been given one additional rock, and the person on the left still has theone rock because they were still able to see over the fence. Those rocks inmy analogy that I use with that illustration, those rocks are theacts of equity that I was talking about to give them opportunity to beable to have the same access that the person has on their left. And thefence in my analogy are all of those, I call them the isms,those things that didn't crop up overnight. And it's going to takelonger term strategy to sort of pull them apart frominstitutions, from organisations, from society like isms,like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, et cetera.And so we have to be doing both in order to, to get to thatthird illustration where the rocks are gone and the fence is gone. But what ishappening, the acts of equity are causing disruptionbecause the person who was standing on one rock in the first illustration andstill standing on one rock in the second, but they're looking to their right andthey're saying, well, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocksand I still have one. That's not fair, that's not equitable. And the challenge isbecause they don't see the fence that's in front of them because they've always beenable to see over it. They don't know how that fence manifestsitself and behaviours to his colleagues on the right. Theydon't know about marginalisation, they don't know about bias,they don't know about the obstacles and the barriers that get in the waythat are embedded into that, that the isms in that fenceand so those of us that are doing the work of diversity,equity, inclusion, creating more inclusive cultures and belonging,we have to put the acts of equity in place, put the rocks in place.So, so we can still still have. Those are sort of the short termmidterm strategies, we have to tear the fence down, that's thelonger term strategy. And then we also have to have aconversation with that person standing on one rock and say, okay, here'ssome things that you need to Understand, you've always been able to see over thatfence. That fence is there. And here's how it manifests itself in
Celeste Warrenguest
behaviour. Give them things to read and articles to read or books toread or training to take or, you know, give them thing resources toeducate themselves and then have a conversation with them and helpthem to understand how that fence, first of all, that's there,second of all, they have always been able to see over it for whatevernumber of reasons. And then third, how. What it manifests itself tohis colleagues on the right and why it's necessary for those acts ofequity while we're tearing down the fence. And then lastly, wedon't want you to just intellectualize it, we want you to be activeallies. We want you to get in the boat, we want you to grab anoar and we want you to row with us and help us to get upthe river so we can get to that third illustration where the rocksare not needed, the fence is torn down and then everybody can see thebeautiful mountains and even that person that could see over thefence the whole time with a fence torn down, their aperture has beenwidened and broadened because now they're able to see not just thetop, but they're able to see other things that maybe that fence wasobstructing and they didn't even realise it. And that's why, youknow, I say everybody wins when we get it right. Equity. You know, rightnow we're at a stage where we're putting the rocks of equity in placeand we're trying to tear down the fence and that individual.Those conversations still need to be had with the individual standing on the onerock, as painful as they can be sometimes. But we're notgoing to get to that third illustration if we're not all working together.It's. It's just going to. It's going to be very, very difficult. Yeah. Was it
Joanne Lockwoodhost
JFK said a rising tide floats all boats equally or whatever. So what we're tryingto do here is we're not trying to float your boat higher or lower thanmy boat. We're just trying to raise the tide so we're all floating and we'reall off the rock, if you like. Yeah. And that's the
Celeste Warrenguest
reason why, you know, the myth about preferential treatment, becausethe individual, all they see is the rocks. The fact that they have three, theyhave two and they only. They only have one and they don't see the fence,they don't see the larger ecosystem of what's happening. You know,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it's all very well and I just play with your analogy and your, your,your model here. So we've achieved justice, which is the final box.There's no fence, we don't need the rocks. We can all see, we can all,we can all participate fairly neatly in society. But part of thechallenge at that point there is the internalisation, theingrained mindset of somebody who has been brought up in a marginalised community,experienced marginalisation, discrimination themselves. How do we re.Engage them? Because I think sometimes we look at the mindset of people. Whereaspeople who are used to succeeding and having everything their own wayhave a certain mindset. But people who are used to being knocked back gointo situations where less belief, less confidence, less supportnetwork, all these things. So it's all very well removing some of the barriers, butwe've also got to help enable people. There's even more equity. We've gotto give them, give them self belief, isn't it? Oh yeah, there,
Celeste Warrenguest
there's a, it's about mindsetshift, a shift in mindset shift in behaviours. And youtalk about a tightrope having conversations withindividuals that it, so that individual that was standing on one rock whenthey grew up, just like I grew up around the table with what myconversation with my parents, they grew up around the table withcertain conversations. And so you're telling them that, okay,if we want, want an inclusive society, you have toforget about or rewire what mom and dad and Auntieand Granddad told you coming up. That's not an easy conversation byany means, but it's one that's necessary in orderfor us to get to that third illustration. And, and,and on the, on the other side too, to your point,of the marginalised group that has always beenthose behaviours have manifested to them of the obstacles and the barriers gettingin their way and that's the way their life has been and their journey hasbeen. Unfortunately, it's the same thing as, you know, domestic violenceand the woman who, her husband's been beating her for years.And then one day he says, well, I'm not going to do it anymore. Andall of a sudden she's just supposed to flip and be this different personwhen every single time he raises his hand she flinches. Andfor years afterwards. So all of this mindset andbehaviour change needs to occur as well for everyone,for us to really, truly benefit from that third illustration.Because once we tear the fence down, once we, the rocks are, and we don'tneed the rocks we simultaneously need to be working on ourselves.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. So the people who needed the rocks, they need to believethey don't need the rocks anymore. And that's half the battle as well. Trust. It's
Celeste Warrenguest
all about trust. It's all about trust. And that's a hardthing to overcome when there's been centuries andcenturies of behaviour that has been against youand your. And your. Have you ever come across the story or the anecdote? I
Joanne Lockwoodhost
don't know how true it is, but apparently someone did some research and they putfive monkeys in a cage with a ladder and some bananas at the top ofthe ladder. And the monkeys used to climb the ladder, eat the bananas, and thenevery day they put more bananas on the ladder. Then one day they started. Everytime a monkey climbed the cage, they started squirting the monkey who'sgetting the banana with water. So the monkey learned, if I got the ladder, grabthe banana, I'm going to get wet. So it stopped doing it. Then the otherthing they started doing was if a monkey did go up the ladder, instead ofsquirting the monkey who was up the ladder, they squirted the monkeys whoweren't on the ladder. So when the monkey came down, the monkeys at the bottomwho were being squirted then beat up the monkey. Oh, wow. The ladderto reinforce it. And then as this experiment, they swappedthe monkeys out and put new monkeys in and the newmonkeys learned the behaviour of the. Of the group. Yeah. And eventually,after a year, there was no monkeys in the cage who had ever beensquirted with water or ever had a problem. So they, they'd always attack amonkey who went up the ladder to grab a banana, because that's what they did.And that's kind of the belief system you end up reinforcing, as you say, forgenerations and generations of oppression or marginalisation. This is theway it is. I've internalised this. I can't succeed, I won't succeed.You're not going to like me, you're going to reject me. This person's always goingto get the job, whereas the person who is in that incumbent never beensquirted with water. Getting bananas is going to be gung ho going,I see no barriers. And that's often why they succeed more, becausethey're not constrained by their history. Yeah, there's
Celeste Warrenguest
a. There is. It is. All of this is notgoing to be something that is going to happen like that.And the cornerstone of trust is thishard. It is hard for all the reasons that that we talked about the experimentthat you just talked about, all of it. You know, it's, it's sort of inan organisation, you come into an organisation and someonetrained you. That person who's trained you has been with thatorganisation for 20 years. The person who trained them 20 years prior to
Celeste Warrenguest
that had been with the organisation for 20 years.And, and they're thinking,well, why do you, why do we do it that way? Because that's the waythat we've always done it and they're training them the same way whenthat might be antiquated, an antiquated way of doing it. Especiallywhen you think about the technology that has evolved over 20 orsomething years. And so, you know, that's, that's one of the,it's a, it's another example of howorganisational culture becomes so ingrained. It's beyond theHR policies and procedures and the rulesand the this and the that, but it's, it's the peopleand how they behave with the unspoken rules andthe behaviours and it's so funny, but what I've seen from a generationalstandpoint, what I've seen with young people thisgeneration Z and you know, to a degree withY too, as they were coming into the workforce, but they asked the question,well, why do you do it like that? Well, why? That doesn't seem like, well,do you know that you can download this app and that can be done intwo seconds? Right? So the reason why I havehope, one of the reasons why I have hope isas I look and I talk with this generation, this new generation,they courage to be able to say and ask questions,why? Why? Why? Like a five year old toddler, why? Well, why?Well, why? Why? And then when you can't answer the question,then you have to think to yourself, well, why do we do this?And as, as the new generations come into theworkplaces, they have this perspective that isso refreshing because they're not afraid to ask the question why, whichis, which is good because that helps us to sort of breakthat cycle ofdoing it, because that's the way that we've always done it and be ableto think about new. Because we're only going to survive if we,if we nurture innovation and creativity, that's the only way that,that societies survive and thrive. Innovation,creativity. And if we stomp on that, then that'sgoing to be very, very problematic for our future. Any future, anycountry, any organisation. You said earlier a statistic around
Joanne Lockwoodhost
in the US and probably other parts of the World around, the number oflayoffs affecting black women are disproportionately higher.What's the hypothesis around that? What's the why? You know, it can't justbe because they're black women. It must be a circumstance oran inequity or something in the social constructs ofsociety that because they're black women, they're therefore morelikely. But it's not because. Just because they're black women, is it?
Celeste Warrenguest
Yeah, you know, so data would saythat there's been a lot of layoffs in the United States, especiallyin the federal government, in those type roles, which alarge percentage of folks that work in the federal governmentare black women, women of colour in roles acrossdifferent industries. The roles that seem to bebeing diminished are roles in. That are inhabitedand the incumbents are largely black women or women ofcolour. So there's. The data would tell you that if you talkwith some of these black women, they will tell youthat also in some cases too, some are justopting to, to just drop out because of thekind of. What we were talking about earlier about that, that the feeling of,you know, I. I feel marginalised. It's impacting my,my psyche. It's impacting my health. It's not worth it. I'm justgonna. I'm just gonna. I need to just stop and I need to leaveand do something else or leave this environment. So there's alsothat aspect as well. Many the, thearticles and the things that I've read sort of talk about the data andthen they talk about how some of these women have been feeling that have optedto, to. To just make a decision that this isn't the place for me andI need to leave for the reasons I talked about. But one of the things.So there's the. There's all of those things I think wrapped up together.But one of these things, one of the things that I will tell you thatI believe is true iswhat we're seeing with black women. It's like the canary in the coal mine,because it's the tip of the iceberg. What you see happening toblack women is just a. For of aforetaste of what's going to happen in the economy andgenerally to everybody. And it's sort of, like I said, a canary in a coalmine type type thinking. And I've seen articles, I've seen
Celeste Warrenguest
articles and heard, you know, different news talk shows and things like thatwhere they talk about that and they talk about it from a historicalperspective, but that's saying that, you know, what happens tothe minorities in the country is sort of a pretelling of the way the country's going to go and it'll behappening to everybody. And we're starting to see, at least in the UnitedStates, starting to see that in other countries as well. Because backin2024-2024-2025-2024, there werea lot, there was like overwhelmingly large amount of countriesthat were having elections. I think it was like in the 80sand for whatever reason it was just a large number in one year.And there those, those elections, the outcomes of those elections,there was a large percentage of them where they hired in government officialsthat were more conservative. And so you see that, that there's thispendulum that swings, right? And whenever there is a rise insocial activism like we saw in 2020, then all of asudden the pendulum starts swinging to conservatism.And that's kind of what we, what we saw with all of the elections in2024, what we've seen in 2025 in many, many, manycountries. And so now in, you know, history saysthat there's going to be a pendulum and it's going to swing back again tooin future years. So that it's just, it's just sort of thishistorical anomaly that, that just happensthroughout the world. And so, you know, that's why I think that wehave to pay attention to what's happening to women of colour andstart saying, okay, how do we prevent this from happeningholistically, not just to them and what do we need to put in place tohelp black women, but what do we need to put in place to helpoverall as well? Because this is something that it's leading us down apath that isn't good for this particular country. Who's next then?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Is it, is it more around the low paid workers? Is what we'relosing hospitality we're losing. She's a government workforce. Andthe symptom is that here, that in this particular case black women, womenof colour have filled those vacancies and never progressed to higherechelons or more skilled work. We're looking at it and AIand all these kind of technologies here where traditionally that'snot where black women and women of colour have gravitated in their careertrajectory. Yeah, there's definitely.
Celeste Warrenguest
That's absolutely true, Joanne. And whenever I'm talking withespecially university students and different groups, I alwaystell folks from a career standpoint, understand your disciplineand what's needed not today, but five and Ten years from today, whereis your discipline, your industry going? What are some of thechanges that are going to be happening? And understand that and thenhow does that translate to skills and capabilities that are neededand you go after those skills and capabilities because you know,think about it, there, there are jobs that exist today that five and10 years ago did not exist at all. You know, social media,
Joanne Lockwoodhost
marketing, Uber driver, you know, they just didn't exist, did they?
Yeah, they didn't exist. They just didn't exist. And so the world is just
Celeste Warrenguest
changing and so you have to try to stay ahead of it andthat's really, really critical. And you're right. AI, Artificial Intelligence,you know the coin coined the phrase is AI going to takejobs? And it's like, no, it's not going to take jobs, all jobs it'sgoing to take. It's going to replace people who don't understand AI and how toleverage it in their jobs. But you're absolutelyright, there are certain industries and certain disciplines thatpeople of colour, women of colour don't migrate to,but that's not because they don't have the intelligence to be ableto migrate to them. There are a lot of different barriers in theSTEM fields that, that get in the way of people ofcolour, especially women of colour being able to, to get STEM field, to get intoSTEM field that start early in education. Yeah, I was going
Joanne Lockwoodhost
to say the issue here is going back to someone who's, when they're five orsix years old or even back to before the parents conceivedthem. Yes, to try and educate the parents on how toinject aspiration into their future offspring andhow to nurture them to want to succeed and removethose psychological self imposed barriers of limitingmindset that many people grow up with. It's almost like we're going to start thateducation process now for future parents to bring to their futurechildren. And in the, in the education systems the teachers, you know
Celeste Warrenguest
that right, wrong or indifferent, they have their own biases. And when Sallyraises her hand versus Joe raising their hand to answer a question, you know, thereare all kinds of studies around early bias in earlyeducation that starts in, you know, boys being encouragedfor math and girls being encouraged for other, you know, thing English orwhatever. There's all kinds of studies around that have been around for decades. Butit starts, you're absolutely right, it starts with the parents, it startswith the teachers. It starts early, early on in the systemsto be able to rectify those gaps that you see,in these different disciplines as adults, sowe use the. Phrase DEI is broken. We see the
Joanne Lockwoodhost
rhetoric going on by our political leaders aroundthe world, not just in one particular country. How do we rebranddei, diversity, equity and inclusion, so that it's more understandable?Because I think it's become kind of a toxic phrase, it's become kind of amisunderstood, a misquoted motives have been misquoted andmisunderstood. How should we relaunch the essence of whatDEI is in a way that the people who only have onerock can understand? Well, I am not a
Celeste Warrenguest
proponent of rebranding it. I'm more of aproponent of helping people to understand it ina way that makes sense to them. And like I said, meeting themwhere they are because, you know, the way thatI look, the way that I in this, again, this is the world according toCeleste. But the way I look at it isyou are. If you're offended because I'm a black woman and you say tome, well, I don't want to call you black woman,can I call you something else? And my answer is no,I'm a black woman, I'm proud of being a black woman. How Iidentify. And no, you can't call me something else. Put another labelon me. You need to understand me for who I am and what I bring
Celeste Warrenguest
to the table. And that's kind of how I feel about diversity,equity and inclusion. I don't like using the acronym DEIbecause it has been bastardised, the acronym. But when I saythe words diversity, when I say differences in people, when Isay the word inclusion and inclusive society, whereeveryone feels a sense of belonging and feels valued for whothey are, however they identify. And when I use the wordequity, which basically is Management 101, Leadership 101,Business 101, meeting people where they are understandingthose differences and then helping them to remove obstaclesand barriers that are getting in the way for them being able tohave access to opportunities that everybody is has a right tohave. When I explain it to them in those very simple,pragmatic terms, then the light bulbs go off. And I think atthat point it helps people to understand what it is, whatdiversity, equity, inclusion truly is. And so, you know, Ijust think it's just confusing people and you try to call itsomething else. Oh, and by the way,this too shall pass. Because, you know, a lot of this is thisanti diversity equity inclusion rhetoric. A lot of it is, again,it's part of that, that pendulum, if you will, that keeps swinging Backand forth and I say, you know, maintain, help people understand,help people to see the benefit in it. Help people to see that when wedo it right, everybody is going to win and it'll be be something that canbe done for everyone. Absolutely, Celeste, absolutely.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You're right. And we shouldn't have to apologise and change the names ofthings to make them more palatable to somebody else. We even have to over explain.But you're right, we're in a world now where we've gotsome challenges and DEI is as importantas it ever has been and will continue to be. We need to work onthat. So how could people get a hold of you? We've had a fantastic hourand a bit together. I'm sure other people want to engage and have a chat.So how do people get ahold of you? Well, you can reach me on my
Celeste Warrenguest
website, crwdiversity.com oryou can reach me on LinkedIn. Celeste Warren, she her. Oryou can reach me on Instagram,crwdiversity. And they're all interestingways to stay engaged with me. And I say interesting because I'm a littlebit less, I'm more engaging on Instagram and LinkedIn.And you know, when you put your contact information, your email and in mywebsite, then we can engage there as well. Soplease, please. And also too, the book, the Truth AboutEquity, what it really Is, what it isn't and why everyone wins when youget it right, is on Amazon as well. So if you want to continuethe conversation and educate yourself a little bit like we talked about, pick upthe book and, and I'd love to hear what you think about it. Well, I'm
Joanne Lockwoodhost
going to dive over to Amazon right now and take a look, see if Ican find it. Is it, is it just on hard copy or is there aKindle or is there a audible? There's audible as well. Audibleas well. Ah, my favourite. So when I take our puppy for a walk, Ican, I can listen to you in my ears as I'm going for the walk.That's what I do. Absolutely. Well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to headover there and spend one of my credits on it. So let's do that.So let's. Thank you so much. Thank you. I've enjoyed talking with you.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want toexpress my deepest gratitude, gratitude to you, ourlistener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause ofinclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord.Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and becomepart of our ever growing community driving realchange. Share this journey with friends, family andcolleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Gotthoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears.Reach out to [email protected] andlet's make your voice heard. Until next time, this isJoanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to returnwith more enriching narratives that challenge,inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive
Joanne Lockwoodhost
world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.
Origin Stories, Resilience and IdentityThe Burden of Marginalisation and Shifting MindsetsEquity by Design: Fairness, Opportunity and the Path to Justice
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood speaks with Celeste Warren about equity by design and what it takes to build truly inclusive workplaces. Celeste shares formative family stories, including her father’s experience as the first Black teacher and principal in his community, and uses those lessons to explain how trust, resilience, and persistence shape her approach to inclusion.
The conversation explores the burden often placed on marginalised people to adapt in order to be accepted, and contrasts that with the responsibility organisations have to remove barriers and create fair access to opportunity. Joanne and Celeste discuss authenticity, dignity, affinity bias, and the common misconception that diversity and equity lower standards. They also examine why equity is not preferential treatment, but a practical way of meeting people where they are so they can thrive.
A major thread throughout the episode is culture change: challenging ingrained habits, helping people understand the value of difference, and encouraging active allyship rather than passive awareness. Celeste uses accessible analogies to show how equity works in practice, why it matters for recruitment and progression, and how leaders can support both structural change and mindset shift.
The episode closes with a clear message that equity benefits everyone when done well. Listeners are left with a call to action to question outdated assumptions, support inclusion in their own contexts, and help build workplaces where people are valued for who they are.
Watch
Watch the highlight
A 55-second highlight — Celeste Warren on how acts of equity tear down the barriers that hold people back.
“And I think growing up, we had the opportunity to think things through, at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, think about the consequences of your actions.”
“But you have to be able to have productive conversations about those different perspectives in a way that respects other people's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm other people in a way that doesn't belittle other people in a way that doesn't say that because you believe that or you feel that you're less than and you don't count and you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything.”
“the first thing that's going through their head is that you're lowering the standard of performance or quality of a role that that person is gone into.”
“And I would politely stop the conversation there and say to the manager, well, why did you feel a need to say that? After the recruiter said, I want to make sure that I'm bringing you a slate of candidates that are from all different walks of life, all different identities, et cetera.”
“The acts of equity are causing disruption because the person who was standing on one rock in the first illustration and still standing on one rock in the second, but they're looking to their right and they're saying, well, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocks and I still have one.”
“We don't want you to just intellectualise it, we want you to be active allies. We want you to get in the boat, we want you to grab an oar and we want you to row with us and help us to get up the river so we can get to that third illustration where the rocks are not needed, the fence is torn down and then everybody can see the beautiful mountains and even that person that could see over the fence the whole time with a fence torn down, their aperture has been widened and broadened because now they're able to see not just the top, but they're able to see other things that maybe that fence was obstructing and they didn't even realise it.”
“if we want, want an inclusive society, you have to forget about or rewire what mom and dad and Auntie and Granddad told you coming up. That's not an easy conversation by any means, but it's one that's necessary in order for us to get to that third illustration.”
“as the new generations come into the workplaces, they have this perspective that is so refreshing because they're not afraid to ask the question why, which is, which is good because that helps us to sort of break that cycle of doing it, because that's the way that we've always done it and be able to think about new. Because we're only going to survive if we, if we nurture innovation and creativity, that's the only way that, that societies survive and thrive.”
“And so you see that, that there's this pendulum that swings, right? And whenever there is a rise in social activism like we saw in 2020, then all of a sudden the pendulum starts swinging to conservatism. And that's kind of what we, what we saw with all of the elections in 2024, what we've seen in 2025 in many, many, many countries. And so now in, you know, history says that there's going to be a pendulum and it's going to swing back again too in future years.”
“When I say the word inclusion and inclusive society, where everyone feels a sense of belonging and feels valued for who they are, however they identify... when I use the word equity, which basically is Management 101, Leadership 101, Business 101, meeting people where they are understanding those differences and then helping them to remove obstacles and barriers that are getting in the way for them being able to have access to opportunities that everybody is has a right to have.”
The distinction between diversity, inclusion, and equity, and why acts of equity are imperative for moving from access to belonging.
How lived experience and resilience shape approaches to challenging bias and driving sustainable DEI outcomes.
The consequences of affinity bias and strategies for transitioning individuals from "otherness" into trusted in-groups.
The invisible psychological tax of being from a marginalised group and how to foster environments that support authenticity without sacrificing respect or professionalism.
Reframing perceptions of DEI—from tokenism and preferential treatment to recognising equity as foundational to organisational success.
Practical methodologies for addressing systemic barriers, using analogy and storytelling to engage and educate those in positions of privilege.
The evolving landscape of workplace inclusion, considering current social and economic challenges, and why a mindset shift is essential for lasting change.
One thing to remember
The central insight of this episode, "Equity by Design," is that equity is not about preferential treatment, but about removing barriers and meeting individuals where they are—so everyone can access opportunities and thrive. True equity requires both practical acts (or “rocks”) and the simultaneous dismantling of systemic obstacles (“fences”), paired with a shift in mindset and behaviours across society. It’s not enough to focus solely on short-term fixes; sustainable inclusion demands deeper changes in attitudes, legacy biases, and organisational culture—for both marginalised and majority groups.
Questions this episode helps answer
How did Celeste Warren's childhood experiences, particularly her father's role as the first Black teacher and principal in his area, shape her understanding of equity and resilience?
In what ways does the pace and nature of modern communication, such as social media, impact our approaches to addressing injustice compared to previous generations as discussed by Celeste Warren?
Celeste Warren describes overcoming adversity by "doing the job well" and building trust over time. To what extent do you think this approach is still effective or fair in today's landscape of diversity and inclusion?
Joanne Lockwood raises the notion that members of marginalised groups often carry a “burden” to be constantly exemplary. How can organisations ease this burden without placing additional expectations on those individuals?
Reflecting on Celeste Warren’s t-shirt message “Be you. The world will adjust.” — what are the risks and rewards of such an approach in professional settings?
Where should the line be drawn between authenticity and professionalism in the workplace, especially for those with protected characteristics, as explored by both speakers?
Explore topics
Ideas from this episode
Origin Stories, Resilience and Identity
Upbringing and family history brought home the critical impact of origin stories and resilience in shaping one's identity. We explored how lived experience becomes foundational to developing strength, particularly for those navigating marginalised identities.
The Burden of Marginalisation and Shifting Mindsets
The deep-seated reality: for the marginalised, there exists a pronounced burden of representation. It's not merely about being oneself; there's a persistent pressure to be exemplary, to pave the way for others and to counter stereotypes, often at the expense of one's wellbeing.
Equity by Design: Fairness, Opportunity and the Path to Justice
How equity must move beyond aspiration or policy towards tangible, everyday acts. Celeste invoked the familiar fence-and-rocks illustration to demonstrate the essence of equity: providing the supports (the rocks) required for everyone to have equal access, while acknowledging that not all barriers (the fences) are visible to those accustomed to privilege.
Learn
Frequently asked questions
What does “Equity by Design” mean in the context of inclusion?
“Equity by Design” refers to intentionally embedding equity principles into the structures, policies, and everyday practices of organisations. As discussed by Celeste Warren, it means recognising individuals’ varying circumstances and proactively addressing barriers that might hinder access, participation, or advancement. It is not about offering preferential treatment, but about ensuring everyone has what they need to thrive.
How do diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) differ, and how are they connected?
Diversity is the presence of differences among people, both visible and invisible—such as race, gender, background, or experiences.
Inclusion involves creating a culture where those diverse individuals feel they belong, are valued, and their voices are leveraged.
Equity bridges the gap by recognising that people start from different places and need different support to gain equal access to opportunities.
As Celeste Warren explained, inclusion creates the environment, diversity brings differences into the room, and equity ensures everyone reaches the collective goal.
Why do some people feel threatened by equity initiatives or DEI work?
Resistance often arises from misunderstandings about what DEI is and isn’t. As discussed, some assume equity means “lowering standards” or giving special favours, particularly when hearing about equity initiatives in recruitment or progression. However, as Celeste Warren pointed out, equity is about removing systemic barriers so all qualified people—including those from historically marginalised groups—can succeed, not about compromising quality or fairness.
What is the difference between “authenticity” and being “unfiltered” at work?
While openness and authenticity at work are encouraged, Celeste Warren noted that authenticity must be balanced with accountability. Being one’s true self doesn’t mean disregarding mutual respect or professional standards. Authenticity should never come at the expense of others’ dignity.
How can organisations move beyond their default view of “ideal candidates” based on stereotypes?
Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren highlighted that job specs and recruitment processes are often unconsciously shaped by the demographics or experiences of hiring managers. Organisations need to value competencies beyond technical skills, such as lived experience and empathy, and should challenge implicit assumptions about who fits best in a role. Structured awareness and education are key to broadening these mindsets.
What’s the impact of historic marginalisation on confidence and engagement?
Systemic barriers and generational messages can embed a sense of limitation or reduced self-belief in marginalised individuals (Joanne Lockwood, Celeste Warren). Removing structural barriers is important but not sufficient—organisations also need to offer support and encouragement so individuals from marginalised groups can believe in, and seize, new opportunities.
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