--- title: "Running On Linux" episode: 81 date: 2023-09-21 guest: "Sophie Power" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/81-running-on-linux audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-081/audio.mp3 --- # Running On Linux Joanne Lockwood is joined by talent lead and podcast host Sophie Power to explore what it feels like to discover, in adulthood, that you have been “running on a different operating system” all along. Sophie shares her experience of being diagnosed as autistic in her early thirties, what it changed, and what it didn’t, as she reframed years of school, relationships, and work through a new lens. The conversation unpacks how popular culture and workplace narratives can over-simplify autism into the “autistic savant” trope. Sophie discusses why the language of “superpowers” can be well-intended yet still put pressure on autistic people to prove their worth, and how traits like pattern recognition are often misunderstood or over-romanticised. They also move from story to practical inclusion. Sophie and Joanne discuss simple, low-cost adjustments that help neurodivergent people thrive, from fidget tools and sensory-friendly lighting to clarity in processes and reducing unhelpful expectations around eye contact, handshakes, and interview performance. In recruitment specifically, Sophie argues for transparency, offering adjustments up front, and being consistent if interview questions are shared in advance. Throughout, the episode returns to belonging, authenticity, and the idea that supportive environments benefit everyone, not just those who disclose a diagnosis. ## Chapters - 00:01:26 — Late autism diagnosis leads to unique perspective - 00:05:21 — Reading, dyscalculia, struggles, diagnoses, self-discovery journey - 00:12:26 — Friends not surprised, reframing life experiences - 00:17:17 — Strengths vary - diverse team is essential - 00:22:51 — Dinosaur comic, competition win, chocolate velociraptor - 00:27:48 — Scary childhood, Victorian dinosaur statues in park - 00:31:24 — Autistic savants face harmful pressure, exhaustion - 00:38:40 — Accommodations for disability benefit everyone, equality policy - 00:43:23 — Overstimulation leads to need for quieter days - 00:45:58 — Social markers rooted in typical neurotypical behaviour - 00:50:23 — Prepare for meetings: helps show commitment, organization - 00:55:01 — Exciting podcast, subscribe for future episodes ## FAQs ### What is neurodiversity, and why is it important? Neurodiversity is the concept that neurological differences like autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and others are natural variations of the human brain rather than disorders to be cured or fixed. It is important because it promotes a more inclusive and accepting attitude towards people who think, learn, and communicate differently. ### What are some harmful stereotypes about neurodivergent people, and why are they harmful? One harmful stereotype is the autistic savant, perpetuated by media portrayals like Sherlock Holmes and other fictional characters. This stereotype suggests that all autistic people are only valuable for their unique abilities, like pattern recognition or analytical skills, and completely ignores their struggles with executive functioning and social interaction. It is harmful because it creates unrealistic expectations and pressure to prove oneself as an autistic person. ### How can employers promote accessibility and inclusivity for neurodivergent individuals in the workplace? Employers can promote accessibility and inclusivity by being aware of the social markers of confidence, credibility, and success that are often rooted in neurotypical behaviors, such as making eye contact, having a firm handshake, or speaking confidently. They can provide accommodations like fidget toys, reduced lighting, or specific work hours that suit individual needs. Employers can also ask about the needs of their employees and provide resources that don't put the burden solely on the disabled individual. ### How can individuals with neurodivergent conditions prepare for interviews and meetings? Individuals with neurodivergent conditions can prepare for interviews and meetings by being aware of their needs and planning accordingly. If interview questions are sent ahead of time, commit to them and prepare responses. Make sure to have a set routine to follow before and after meetings to help keep focus and manage stress. Use any accommodations that are available or that have worked in the past. ### How can people respond to comments like "you don't look autistic/dyslexic/ADHD" made to neurodivergent individuals? People should respond by educating others about the diversity of neurodivergent experiences and the harmful stereotypes that perpetuate these comments. Reframe the conversation to celebrate neurodiversity rather than reinforce societal ideas of "normal." Explain how comments like these are invalidating and make it harder to seek accommodation and support when needed. ### How can embracing neurodiversity benefit everyone? Embracing neurodiversity benefits everyone by providing different perspectives and approaches to problem-solving and thinking. It creates a more tolerant and accepting workplace and community that values individual differences and strengths. Encouraging neurodiversity also fosters innovation and creativity, leading to better social and economic outcomes. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone, my name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood.co.uk@seechangehappen.co.uk That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 81 with the title Running on Linux. I have the absolute honor and privilege to welcome Sophie Power. Sophie describes herself as a talent lead and podcast host for Zinc, which is the automated background checking software for Teams. When I asked Sophie to describe her superpower, she said that she is a people person and great at connecting with near enough anyone. Hello, Sophie. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for having Sophie Power: me. And hello. Hello, Joanne Lockwood: indeed. Sophie, we were chatting just now and we decided to call this episode Running on Linux. Tell me about that. Yes, we did indeed. Sophie Power: So, Running on Linux, sorry, when I can get my words out, is a lighthearted way of describing my experience over the past year of having been diagnosed at the age of 32 with autism. It's still, it was at the time and still is a new experience for me. It's spent the past year kind of reframing the way that I've approached things. It's obviously very interesting to be reasonably late in life, diagnosed, and looking back on the past 33 years now at the time of recording, you know, the past 33 years of living, I've always had the sense growing up, and I've often made the joke, oh I'm not wired right. It's been a running joke with some of my long term friends, if any of them happen to be listening. They'll know that 1 well. It was interesting to actually get that confirmation, which while it wasn't a shock, it certainly was, it kind of was and wasn't a shock, I think is probably the best way of putting it. It's very strange to have the sense that there's got to be a disconnect here somewhere. I've always had that feeling like, there are things about life I'm not getting. It's not that I'm unintelligent. It's not that I'm bad with people. It's not that I'm unempathetic. Quite the opposite. But there's something sort of not quite right there. So it was really interesting to realize actually, I'm trying to, yeah, trying to, you know, sort of interact with a world that runs on Windows, if we're going to use that analogy. And actually, I'm on a completely different operating system and I've been reading the wrong instruction booklet, which was where the analogy came from. I came up with it in the office, sort of as a little bit of a joke, but realized actually it kind of hit the nail on the head of my experience anyway, very, very well. So that's a little bit of what running on Linux is about when I say that. So what was it Joanne Lockwood: that you realised was different about you that led you to realise that the operating system was different? Sophie Power: Yeah, when I was very young, like a lot of toddlers, but probably more, perhaps more boys than girls, but I think that's more a socialization point. That's probably another talk for another time. I was obsessed with dinosaurs. Anyone who's ever met a toddler probably won't be that surprised to hear that actually, as my friends have now got toddlers of their own. But it went beyond just liking playing with the toys. Jurassic Park came out when I was a kid, So my first cinema trip was to see the Jurassic Park film. I was obsessed. I knew every name of every dinosaur. You could put up flashcards of the most obscure dinosaur and I could tell you what their name was, what period they came from. I could tell you a fun fact about them, what other kinds of dinosaurs existed around at the time. It was precocious. It was uncanny. My parents loved it. They thought it was brilliant. Joanne Lockwood: I I realize now, reflecting back Sophie Power: with the knowledge I do now, that was probably my first special interest and certainly the first example. I am terrible at maths. I have actually known for since university that I've dyscalculia. And it is what it is. I've worked with that for a long time. But I was always extremely good at reading. I could read and write long before I started school. Often, I remember as a kid, I was actually told off for reading the wrong sticker books. I don't know if they still do this because I don't have kids, so I'm not sure what happens in schools now. But certainly back in the 90s, you'd have coloured stickers on all of the books in the school library and a reading level would be assigned. And I'd, right from the get-go, be reading the highest sticker, which was purple and blue, if you're wondering, when I should have been on red. I used to get told off for reading too far above my level, which I remember thinking very strange and then being like, well, no, I'm not gonna read the Red Book. I read that 2 years ago, I'm not interested. And sort of that, again, that kind of precociousness, but it didn't translate to later school life as school got more complicated, social structures got more complicated, things got more nuanced. I started to really struggle. I got bullied a lot at school and I wouldn't really understand why. I had some really deep, passionate special interests that I'd get laughed at for. I was very passionate about drama and theatre and drama group. Passionate about politics, like a lot of teenagers to be fair. That's not unusual, but I joined the student council, the local town council, and I'd very earnestly run campaigns to get people in sixth form child bus fares. I was successful, I'd just like to say, because I was very persistent, very polite pest. It would often be viewed as, I'd realize people weren't laughing with me, but I wouldn't quite know why they were laughing at me, which is extremely disorientating and confusing when you're already going through the joys of being a young person. I wouldn't be a teenager again for all the size 6 genes in the world. Then as I became an adult, I started to, in my mid to late twenties, reflect back on a pattern of relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, and realizing I often got taken advantage of and not quite realized the steps that were happening as they were happening, and sort of not see these patterns of behavior. So I'd go take myself to the therapist's office. And then eventually I had a therapist say, I don't know how to help you. And I was like, oh, it would have been nice if you told me that before we'd spent 6 months, me paying 6 months of invoices, but okay. And so that led me to kind of question what and why. And I think that sort of coincided with a growing movement of more adult women realizing that their neurodivergence exhibited itself very differently to the stereotypes of ADHD and autism as being something that happens to middle class white boys. It's very real and very valid for them as well. And they still don't get the support they need, I think. When I reflect back on the boys at school I went to school with who had ADHD and the stigmatism that they faced. And I remember that. You know, it's something that flew under the radar for me. And rather than, you know, Sophie, Sophie is autistic. It was just, Sophie's weird. She wears weird clothes because she doesn't see the point of wearing the fashionable clothes just because everyone else is. You know, a little bit of sort of that oppositional kind of tendency. So yeah, it was a lot of things. And then yeah, it sort of culminated in end of twenties, spending my... I turned 30 before the pandemic, but my early thirties spent 2 years sat alone in my flat because I lived alone and was single and self-employed. So triple whammy of solitary confinement for lockdown and realizing that 1, I'm actually okay on my own. Yeah, I haven't noticed it's been 2 years. Oh, right, okay. And realizing I've dived into another special interest and Now I'm surrounded with loads of art and things I've created and that's really cool. I'm realizing actually I do really well in online communities and living online. I'm realizing it's because there are rules and there's rules for internet forums, there's their structures, there's ways that you converse and things you do and don't say and it's all very kind of fixed and literal. And then I think the absolute catalyst for going forward and getting a diagnosis was going out for a catch-up dinner with an old uni friend who herself had been diagnosed with ADHD. And she said very sensitively and very empathetically, Have you thought about it for yourself? Because a lot of the things that we shared as a struggle, she was a course mate, we sat together every day for 3 years. Just sort of, you know, Some of the things we struggled with together, and it was just a joke and a, ha, ha, ha, love deadline mode, lol. Actually, it turns out it was just classic ADHD symptoms. That led me to, through Psychiatry UK with the NHS, looking at ADHD. And then actually, the more I spoke to my psychiatrist, she said that it's, I think, the underlying issue that's really driving a lot of sort of the things that you're talking about struggling with is actually autism. And then from there ended up getting a diagnosis and it was like, you know, sort of mind, quite mind-blowing in a slightly long Joanne Lockwood: nutshell. So getting the diagnosis, what difference did that make to your life? Just that diagnosis. So what changed as a result of that? Sophie Power: Um, in some ways, absolutely nothing. Um, so in some ways, like, you know, I kind of told some people and they were like, yeah, I'm not surprised. Like, oh, did you not know? Was how some of my friends responded, which was quite, I mean, I'm a big fan of just not taking life too seriously and having a bit of a giggle, as you probably tell by the suggested title of this podcast. So, you know, I found, you know, sort of some of them were like, yeah, yeah, we know, babe. It's okay, we love you anyway, which is wonderful. And then, you know, sort of other folks, it's sort of the classic, you don't look autistic comments, which I'm not really sure how to unpack. I don't know how I feel about them actually. It's only been a year. I don't really know. I don't have enough of data to do a retro on that. And then in other ways, there was a period of reframing my whole life's experiences, and that has been very tiring. So as I've talked a lot about school so far already, but also my professional life. There's been so many times and references that are in my report as well, talking about, you know, incidences at work where I've just been blindsided by things and been really shocked by, you know, that or I've said something that I think is completely innocent, and then somebody's reacted like I've threatened their firstborn, and it's really blown my mind. I'm like, why are you so angry? I've just asked the question. I'm not understood why People have had quite extreme reactions to what I think are quite innocent things. I'm a nice person. I do nice things. I like to help people. I'm always looking for the best way of doing things, doing the right thing, and invoking community is really important to me. Having that reaction sometimes has always been quite shocking. It's been a period of reframing all of those experiences and going, well, actually, me and this other person are just reading, seeing off completely different hymn sheets to pick a colloquialism. We're approaching things with a completely different way of seeing and experiencing the world. And that's, sometimes yeah, there's been a lot of feelings with that. Joanne Lockwood: And now I understand that I feel things quite strongly and why. Is anybody neurotypical? You know, we talk about being normal. Normal is such a very fine line on the bell curve of extremes. Who is neurotypical? Because everything you're describing, I think, yeah, I get obsessed about that. Yeah, I can do that. I was very polarized in my school years. Maths and physics, I was completely in tune with. So I was A grade maths and physics and chemistry and biology. But Z grade if there was a Z grade in other things like French and German and some of the maybe economics, those sort of things. So I'm either in or I'm out. If you look at my report card, there was nothing in the middle. It was either loved it or hated it, which is a classic symptom of assessing and pulling things apart and getting to the bottom of it. If it's in your frame, if it's not, it's just not relevant to you. So is anyone actually neurotypical or is everybody on this, I hate the word spectrum, But we are all different. And who said that 100, 000 years ago, when our species started evolving into communities, that we had to be typical? I always think about dyslexia. Dyslexia is... Who decided that we were designed to write and read? Who decided that? We haven't evolved to read and write. So who says dyslexia is abnormal? Dyslexia could be our default position and we've just decided the social construct we've created says that dyslexia is wrong or not as good. I think, so who says that neurodiversity, you know, your traits that you special, your superpower, would have given you significant advantage in certain, and they probably still do in certain situations, where you can hyperfocus, you can get really stuck into something and block everything else out to get a task done or to achieve something. And I think we often see people as different, when really we're just, we're all different. I wonder if you've experienced that kind of feeling as well. Yeah, definitely. Sophie Power: Yeah, there's really a sense of we all bring different things to the table and we're all good at different things and we all, you know, there are some things I'm absolutely atrocious at. The 7 times table, sorry mum. Long division, awful. To be honest, budgeting, again, my dad's an accountant, sorry dad. But then there are other things I'm really good at, which is, I am 1 of those rare people that is quite comfortable walking into a room full of strangers on her own and going and making friends. And again, I reflect back and I've traveled all over the world on my own. And to me, it's like, yeah, sure, why not? Her first solo trip was when a friend pulled out and was like, I'm really sorry. I know you really wanted to go. And I was like, oh, I'm still going. She was like, what? I was like, yeah, I'll just go on my own, it's fine. And I didn't really appreciate at the time, 20 years old as I was, that was quite an unusual thing to do. But it just never occurred to me to be any other way. And then you realize, yeah, we've all got different strengths. Some of my friends are very analytical, some of my friends are very social, and some of my colleagues are very creative. Some are very data and numbers driven. Some are very pragmatic. Some are very energized and their thoughts jump all over the place. I see it happen in meetings. You've got people who come out with 20 different ideas in the space of about 10 minutes, and then you've got other people who are more methodical and analytical who sit there and we go, right, okay, well, let's put these in order and let's have a think about how we're gonna, you know, make some of these ideas happen. Do they relate back to this? You know, and then you've got somebody who goes, right, okay, cool. Well, if we get 0.1 done by Friday, I'll get it done. You know, And so if you have people, if you have a meeting room to relate it back to work, if you have a meeting room full of purely analytical people who just sit there and drill through numbers and no creative people and no kind of people who can just get stuff done, nobody's going to tell you what to do with the data. So you're going to have loads of really interesting data, but where's the insight? Where's the action that comes from the insight? Where's the progress? So you need people with lots of different ways of approaching things, whether that be the way we evolved thousands of years ago, or the way that we work now. So yeah, I agree. Normal is, you're right, Jan, such a narrow definition and I don't think it serves anyone, let alone somebody working on a different operating system. Yeah, and you could Joanne Lockwood: probably appreciate I was operating on a, I think MS-DOS when I was growing up, I'm that old. In fact, pre-MS-DOS punch card, I think I was operating on. And it took me to my teens and 20s and into my 40s to realize that I was running on the wrong hardware. And I had to do a shift. And I often think that the fact I'm left-handed, the fact that I'm transgender, it's just my brain has a different set of wiring and it's no different to being neurodiverse or whatever it may be. And some might argue that some of my traits have a touch of autistic or ADHD or ADD about them because of who I am. But I kind of think like you, they're just who I am, they're my superpower. And I remember seeing a psychologist or psychiatrist, whichever the definition was, at the gender clinic. And I remember coming out with a bit of paper and it said, you are trans, DSM 64.2. Yeah. Transsexual. And I went, yay, I'm official, I'm real, I exist. I'm not making this stuff up. And sometimes just that bit of paper or that diagnosis gives you permission to be you and then put everything in place. And it unlocks a lot of the history of you. I relate to that completely. Yeah, definitely that. It was Sophie Power: a really surreal feeling because the whole assessment was over a video call. And I was actually, I wasn't working at the time, so I was waiting to start at MyNow Companies Inc, having had a pretty major operation actually. So it was very surreal to just be like, okay, I've had a really major operation on my body and my whole body's going to be different now. And Also so is my brain. I'm going to move house and start a new job. Why am I so tired all the time? I don't get it. In a way it was really energising though, because it gives you this, yeah, like that sense of, yeah, you put it really nicely, permission to, or sort of a, like a, what is the word, permission, mandate, a mandate to be yourself. Yeah, mandate, Joanne Lockwood: I like that, yeah, it's good as well. It's, yeah, you've got the authority to be you, haven't you? And it's, and you're authentic, You're not playing at this. Yeah. I mean, I want to take you back to the dinosaur comic. Because I remember when I was in my childhood and I remember there being a comic, you know the comics used to come with that really, really low quality newsprint. And I remember having 1 and it was a case of over the over like 6 to 8 weeks, you had to read this comic strip and identify all the dinosaurs that were in the story. And you then had to work out from the images of them. So I spent hours in the local library with my mum. This is way before the internet. This is in the mid seventies. So we're in the local library with my mum getting books on dinosaurs out and trying to work out which dinosaur was which. And so I entered the competition with like a list of 20 dinosaurs. You know, this picture, this picture, this is what? And I won. I got every dinosaur right. It was like, so we're just talking about being obsessed with dinosaurs. Um, way before Jurassic Park. But 1 thing I was looking at the other day, there's a TikTok reel or something on Facebook or something that came up, someone had made an 8 foot high, I guess it was a velociraptor, just from the Jurassic Park type thing, made out of chocolate, made out of chocolate. And this thing was absolutely, I mean, you could have made it out of any mouldable material, but he was a chef and he made it out of chocolate, it's absolutely incredible. In fact the comments in the chat underneath was the dinosaur's teeth are too perfect, they didn't have dentists, the teeth wouldn't have been that shiny. So I thought it's a fantastic thing but when you said you know interesting fact about all these dinosaurs what's your interesting or funny fact about a pterodactyl then? I really want to know what what's interesting and funny about a pterodactyl. Oh gosh Sophie Power: um do you know what the the really the even funnier thing is that I, to my great shame, don't remember a lot of it. So I remember the obsession, I remember the fun, I remember the excitement. I have actually quite a lot of dinosaur themed clothes in my wardrobe. If my colleagues are really lucky I might wear my dinosaur dress to work 1 day. Last time it had an outing was my friend's son's second birthday party, which was dinosaur themed. But yeah, Joanne Lockwood: pterodactyl. There's something in the way the names Sophie Power: made. So ptero is a number and dactyl refers to fingers. So, the wings, they've got a certain amount of fingers and that's where the name comes from because they obviously they're winged. Joanne Lockwood: They are lizards with skin between their body and their arms, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, which is quite cool. Sophie Power: And, yeah, and then my parents, of course, having a kid that was obsessed with dinosaurs, took me to the Natural History Museum in London. And they were really excited for me to see the big animatronic I was terrified, absolutely terrified. It looked, when you're tiny, it looked very real. It is pretty scary. And I was apparently cried and cried and cried and didn't actually want to see it because it looked too real. Because yeah, they felt very real. I had no concept of what 70 million years ago might feel like. None of us do. Then I went back as an adult when I had a random day off work, as you often do when you spend some periods being self-employed. And I was like, oh, 0, it was a really nice trip down memory lane. It was just before Dippy went on holiday. But yeah, so that was really cool to see. To see sort of all of the... Yeah. Yeah, all of the... I've got an Instagram boomerang of the T-Rex at the Natural Joanne Lockwood: History doing its growl and sort of thing. I've got a little boomerang on my Instagram. Oh, amazing. Yeah, I found it quite interesting. I think when we went to Florida, I think it was Disney, there was a ride where you're either on a boat or something and you're going along and you got to this cliff edge and this T-Rex or some big dinosaur pops its head over the edge and like, oh my god, I wasn't expecting this. I guess it's called the dinosaur Jurassic, it must be called the Jurassic Park, right? We were in a jeep or something, that's probably what it was, yeah. And this big T-Rex thing pops over and it's like, oh, I remember my children were really, really frightened of that. Oh yeah, Sophie Power: it's very scary when you're little and everything looks so much bigger for a start, and everything's so much louder and what have you. There's 1 place I haven't been yet, actually, is Crystal Palace Park. I don't know if you know. It's in South London, for anyone unfamiliar with the geography of outer London. There are lots of statues of Victorian dinosaurs, so Victorian impressions of dinosaurs from the Great Exhibition of 1888. I want to say 88, but I'm not a historian. I'm making that up. Around that time. I really want to see them, but I live in North London so it's a bit of a trek and life is busy. 1 of the things that's really interesting about them is that they're actually very historically inaccurate because they were based on what few fossils they had and obviously modern science and modern paleontology is caught up and said actually these aren't accurate. So it's sort of like Victorian impressions of dinosaurs based on all these bones they started finding Joanne Lockwood: on the Jurassic coast and things like that. Even now, they're trying to rewrite some of the thinking about dinosaurs, about the color, even some of the shapes and the skin texture, some of maybe having more feathers than they probably imagined because we can't establish colour or some of those things have obviously deteriorated over the years but they're now trying to reimagine dinosaurs with a new more modern light rather than say based on that Victorian just a skeleton. Yeah, which is really interesting. Sophie Power: Speaking of Facebook and Instagram, I did see quite a funny meme about dinosaurs a couple of months ago. I think I sent it to 1 of my mates being like, lol, how'd you do? It was a comment that basically said, we have no idea if dinosaurs had hair or not because fossils don't preserve hair. So imagine a dinosaur looking like this. It was a picture of a diplodocus with a long head of brown hair, just randomly, which was quite like a little drawing that somebody had stuck some, you know, drawing of some hair over, which was quite funny. And yeah, maybe, you know, in another sort of 20, 30 years, there'll be a completely different framing for what we know about dinosaurs then. Joanne Lockwood: Going back to the topic we were talking about, if anyone's listening, you can probably gather we could probably talk about dinosaurs or anything. We could obsess over anything for hours. This is great. I love this conversation. Going off, just talk about random stuff. I see a lot of, you know, you're in recruitment, I'm in EDI, HR space, we obviously hang out on LinkedIn a lot. And you see a lot of memes, stories around autistic superpower, how autistic people have got this sort of extra spidey sense or this fixation with data. What worries me sometimes is we're trying to categorise or stereotype autistic people as rain man, you know, data experts. Is that setting up people to fail sometimes because I'm autistic, but I'm not a mathematical genius. Are we creating a stereotype? Sophie Power: Yeah, I think so. I think there's a lot of, it's well-intended, like a lot of these things are. You know, It's born out of a desire to celebrate and champion with the best of intentions. But I think when we create this view of the autistic savant, and if you look to media, There's a lot of that as well. I've not seen the show, but there's a Korean detective show, The Extraordinary Dr. Woo, we want to say. There's also Sherlock Holmes, another famous, more readily recognizable 1. They're often autistic coded characters. It's like these genius, analytical savants. And 1 of the things that I think I realize now I'm very good at is that's often seen as Spidey sense, quote Marx, but it's pattern recognition. I'm very good at spotting tiny little changes in people's behavior. I am the absolute worst person to watch a film with, because I very quickly have worked out how it's going to end. I also have a degree in comparative literature, so I've read pretty much every book there is to read and made an extensive study of all the different types of stories that could possibly exist. There's a little bit of that as well. But I'm really good at watching it and going, yeah, no, it wasn't the husband. It was the cousin. And people watching this detective film, people go, wait, what? And then it turns out to be right. And then I realized, I think it's brilliant. So I'm like, oh, great. And I've sat there and I've worked out. My friend sat with me watching is frustrated because I've just bought it for them. And for them, the surprise is the journey. I hate surprises. So like that pattern recognition, that perception, that analysis, I think can be really harmful because ultimately, the way I see it, is it frames autistic and neurodivergent people as, you know, it frames them in as much as their use to the wider population. I feel like the 1 thing people have always said is, what's your superpower? Oh, well you just have to find your superpower, is 1 thing somebody said when I told them I was autistic and they meant well. I'm not offended or anything, but it obviously puts pressure on the neurodivergent person to almost prove their worth. What use have they got? If you're going to be disabled, what value can you provide? Is it the more sinister kind of message? I don't love that view. It's well intended and I don't think anybody's ever meant it in a harmful way, but I think it puts a lot of pressure on people. Because sometimes actually, you know, The burnout is real and the exhaustion is real. It's very tiring. I was always confused by where people got their energy from. Just going a whole day of being at work, socializing, talking. I love socializing. I love talking. And then also the executive functioning around going home and managing a household if you've got children, managing a household with children, which is a whole other board game. And, And, you know, and then kind of doing all of that and then also having the time to go to the gym, have hobbies, like have long-term goals, you know, work on a long-term project, you know, saving for a house, you know, planning a big trip, you know, organizing a wedding, like take your pick, you know, where do people get all the energy from? And to then also have to think about your superpowers and how to present them and how to find them and how to unpack them and show them. That's also really tiring when you're also swimming against the tide. Joanne Lockwood: As an Sophie Power: autistic person, I suddenly realized, I talked about it with Theo Smith, sorry, but just before Christmas and, you know, sort of things like sensory sensitivities and lighting and all of these things, you know, Stimming and fidget toys and things, yeah. Yeah, and a lifetime of being told to stop fidgeting and being put in detention or told I look like I'm not enjoying things because I'm fidgeting in a meeting. It's just like, yeah, I've got a couple of- Sorry, I'm just holding up Joanne Lockwood: my squidgy, I've got some squidgy teddy bears here, which I often play with. I've Sophie Power: got a couple of poker chips that I fiddle around with. Don't even play poker. Not remotely good at it. But I've got a couple of poker chips that I fiddle around with like off camera when I'm in meetings and it really helps. It actually helps me focus, so I look like I'm fidgeting and not paying attention, but I'm actually more focused for doing that. Yeah, 1 thing I Joanne Lockwood: noticed, I was at a workshop that I was facilitating for a charity I'm a trustee of actually, and 1 of the things they did to prepare the environment was to be neurodiverse aware. So what they did was they made sure there was no strong lighting. So they turned them for sensory person review that they didn't use the main room lighting. They put table lamps on every table and they put fidget toys out and people who want to stim or fidget or play or occupy their hands. And I'm holding 1 now, it's like a bit of a plastic mesh with a marble inside. I picked up this, I've also got another 1, which is a kind of a key ring type thing, which you just flip over. And 1 thing that I've suddenly realized after a couple of hours of playing with these that I hadn't touched my phone. And what I realized that I'm picking up my phone, I'm playing with it, I'm stimulating myself, I've got this obsession with checking it, I can't handle any red notification icon on my app, so I've got to close them all. And I realised that you can actually turn the notifications off, so I started going around to turn the notifications off so I don't have to close them. But I found that after a couple of hours of just playing with these fidget toys, I wasn't picking my nails. I often pick my nails. I'm very guilty of that. And I wasn't picking my phone up. So I realized that actually my brain needs something to fiddle with. And, and I, it was a real awakening for me. And I shared that when people talk about fidget toys from a neurodiversity point of view. And I don't know if I'm neurodiverse, I haven't had a test or haven't even considered it. But what I have identified is that I do benefit from a fidget toy in a way of helping me put my phone down and maybe start having conversations and being more attentive because I'm not fidgeting in the background, if you like. Yeah, yeah, Sophie Power: it's definitely, I think it's something a lot of people can benefit from. I mean, you'll probably know better than me given your line of work, but I think we call them accommodations for disability, but actually they're things that benefit everyone, regardless of neurotype. There are a lot of people who could probably focus much better on meetings when they doodle on their notepad or they twiddle a couple of poker chips to do something with their hands rather than bite their nails. I am a nail biter. I was for my entire childhood. I was constantly nagged about it. Realistically, I was probably stimming because you weren't allowed to fidget. You had to sit stock still, stare at the front of the class, not say a word, not move. And if you did, you were told off, sent to the corner or put in detention. And so yeah, so we, you know, 1 of the things I've done recently at Zinc is write a sort of, not a policy policy, it's a bit heavy handed in a 30 person seed stage startup. But just write what equality means at Zinc and what it means in practice. Because I think a lot of it was done in an unspoken way. And actually, for those of us who need things outlined, it's very useful. So I outlined it. And 1 of the things we talked about was like, do you need to use fidget toys? Do you need to, Is it helpful to wear sunglasses in the office sometimes? Does your hyper focus look like dancing at your desk with some headphones in while you've got 3 browser tabs open? Because that's what it looks like for me. My colleagues are very patient when I need to work that way. And then it makes it easier for me knowing that They're comfortable with letting me work my way and supporting that, which gives me the energy back to help them when their way of focusing and knuckling down is silence and not talking. You spend 20 minutes being like, right, okay, let's put some music on and have a bit of a chat. It seems like, great, I've got loads of work done now. Okay, right, I'm going to go make a cup of tea and go and sit and do things. Then we'll have some quiet time. I switch my diary around because some days I sit and get my head down. Those are work from home days. Then I try and do the more people-focused things. But yeah, there's also been times when I've worn sunglasses in the office. And my team have been really good at just not making a comment, actually. I turned up on a video call at a previous company once wearing sunglasses because I was just over just too the sun was like beaming into my flat and I was like oh I can't even anymore. And instead of sort of like making a big comment about it everybody just put the zoom sunglasses filters on So we ended up like an entire call of people wearing sunglasses, which I thought was quite funny. Um, but yeah, um, I can certainly relate to Joanne Lockwood: what you're saying around the, the noise, what you have noise in the background, sometimes you do sometimes you don't. I mean I'm 1 of these people that I walk around my house telling Alexa to stop because Alexa's often got radio too on in the background and when my wife sets it up she tends to have it at a kind of a background hum level And when it's because my hearing is faded as I got older or not, I find this like, noise where I can't quite hear the vocal, I can hear the music, but I can't hear the spoken. It just really, really, I gotta go, just turn it off, either turn it up or turn it off. I can't handle the hum level. But I can find myself sitting in silence for hours without even, and go, oh yeah, I've been sat in silence. Or sometimes I get in the car and I haven't turned the radio on, I haven't put any music on or anything, and I've driven to Manchester and I get to Manchester and I realize I've just done that in silence. I haven't had any other stimulation. My brain has been focusing on obviously the drive but also it's been into thinking mode or exploring ideas mode and yeah I can be perfectly happy. I think you said earlier you can spend all day on your own and have a great time and you don't need anybody else to sort of join in sometimes. Oh, there's enough going on up there Sophie Power: to be honest. Yeah. It's been busy for hours. Like, yeah, it's interesting. Like I definitely have days where, yeah, I need the stimulation. But then I also have days where, God, I would love to just hit pause. And those are definitely the days where, yeah, I'd prefer a quieter day, lower lighting, less music. And it's actually not because I'm lower in energy, it's because I've got too much. And as well as being, you know, sometimes under stimulated, like there have definitely been times when I've been overstimulated. And I've, I've been like way too up. And then, you know, sort of, I've got other people in the office where we sort of hype each other up and then it's, you know, I'm up in the ceiling and I'm just like, oh God, I've got to go home and try and go to bed and calm down now. And yeah, so that's always a fun 1. So it's sort of, yeah, it's, and it's interesting because I just didn't have any clue about any of this until a year ago. So these things were happening and I just assumed that these were experiences that everybody had and that was normal and well, you know, normal, quote, mark, widely experienced, you know, and it turns out that actually less widely experienced than I realized it. But 1 thing as well is that understanding about yourself helps you to find your tribe and your people. And I've always felt a sense when I was younger of not fitting in and not feeling like I've met my people, that kind of sense of belonging. And I feel I'm much closer to that now I have a better understanding of where I belong and what belonging means which is really important. Joanne Lockwood: So in your job you are a talent acquisition specialist. Yeah, for the person on the street, that's a recruiter. I know it's a... Yep. Whatever. You place people into roles for a company. So as someone who is neurodivergent, has ASD, autistic, ADHD, whatever terminology you use, what do you think is important for people in the TA process, talent acquisition process, to think about when engaging with candidates who are specifically around neurodiversity? What are the good things? Because there's still lots of myths and you should do this and should do that. What really makes a difference? Yeah Sophie Power: so Things around like the typical sort of social markers of confidence, credibility and success are very much rooted in what that looks like for a neurotypical person. Eye contact, a firm handshake, less ums and ahs, minimal pausing, sounding certain, sounding assertive, projecting your voice clearly. Now, I had a lot, I used to go to theater school in my spare time, so I've had a lot of training in these things from a young age. It's a passion of mine. I was at the theater on Monday. So these are things I realize now are a big part of my masking. But actually when I'm very tired, they're things I really struggle with. And I realize I catch myself stammering and I find eye contact painful. And, you know, oh, don't touch me. Don't shake my hand. Don't gently pat me on the arm. Like, ooh, leave me alone. Yeah, and, but then, you know, sort of when I've got more energy, these things I don't struggle with, but that isn't the experience of everybody. You know, and so for a lot of candidates, like 1 of the things we put on our website about accessibility at Zinc is, you know, if you need to make us aware that you're uncomfortable with eye contact or you don't want to do handshakes or you need softer lighting in your interview room, then let us know. The lighting is probably the 1 I'd need the most notice about because I need to work something out with our office manager. But it's not insurpassable. We can overcome and sort of work with all of this. So, you know, none of these things are difficult. And I think as a company, as an employer, as a recruiter, it's just a matter of letting people know that they're available to be asked for as well. The burden doesn't always have to be on the disabled person to guess what you're able to provide. Let them know what you can do straight off the bat, what you understand, you know, because it also shows that you're an employer and a business that thinks about these things proactively, which means that they are, you know, when I'm looking at things, I know that I'm more likely to be more comfortable because these are people that think about this stuff before I've asked them to because it's stuff they care about and it means something to them. Also, none of these things are expensive. None of these things are time consuming. None of these things actually impacts an ability to do a job. You know, unless your job's a professional eye contact and handshake tester, that job doesn't exist. You know, it's absolutely fine, you know, to sometimes just not say a word if somebody's wearing sunglasses and headphones in the office, like they're getting the job done. It's Joanne Lockwood: cool. I've said that before when people are transfixed about grammar and spelling on CVs. And I say, Look, you're hiring and recruiting a forklift truck driver. Does it really matter? What you're looking for is, are they competent and safe for driving a forklift truck? So often we create this normative expectation and biases about who this person must be in order to be good enough. And we're just not thinking about what the requirement for the role is and the great attributes we're looking for. We're creating all this other stuff. And I've seen the debates again on LinkedIn around the do or don't around sending the interview questions in advance to the candidate. And people will say, well, if you send the interview questions, that's cheating. They'll be able to rehearse them and practice and do some research. You think, well, hang on a minute, in my job, when I'm doing things, I rehearse, I investigate, so what we're trying to do here is we're saying you've got to have a fantastic memory and be able to recall facts and figures, or you're actually saying that in the real world, we don't expect you to shoot from the hip. We want you to think about things in advance. I think it's a great way. And... Yeah, I mean, when you actually get Sophie Power: the job, you're expected to prepare for meetings. You know, if I turn up to a meeting with my management team and I've done absolutely no prep and I've got no idea what I'm doing and I'm just rocking up and winging it, that would not go down well. I've got a lovely team, but they wouldn't be happy with me. So what's wrong with helping people feel prepared? Some people don't. And I think another thing as well is like, what I will say, because I've experienced this as well, I have been offered to be sent questions ahead of time and I have accepted and gone, thank you. I have sat there, gone through the questions. I've not written a script, but I feel prepared and organized. And then I've gone into an interview and been asked completely different questions. Deviating from a fixed plan is probably 1 of the easiest ways to intensely stress out a lot of autistic people I have interacted with and certainly myself. That was probably 1 of the most stressful interviews I've ever had because I don't like surprises and I had prepared to be interviewed for this job this way because I'd been told that was how it was going to be. So that's probably another thing I'd say to be mindful of. If you are going to do it, commit to it. Stick with it. But yeah, It's another way of showing if they really want the job, they'll take the questions and prepare. So if they've prepared, they're showing you that they care about the job. They're showing you how they'll turn up to meetings prepared and organized. You can send them the questions, but they might not necessarily read them, prepare them, use them, make the most of the opportunity. If they don't, that in itself is data that you may or may not want to use. It's not cheating. If you've got to that point in the interview, they've obviously at least shown, at least on paper, that they've got potential. So you're expecting them to have experience or the right attributes or whatever. Yeah. Is that Joanne Lockwood: modernizing the recruiting profession, isn't it? And opening people's eyes and ears and minds to. What would be, I hate the phrase diverse talent. I hate that with impassion but I keep using it. What I mean is people of all experiences making sure that we're valuing people, making accessible, making it available to all and recognizing the equity we need, the extra support people need and whatever it may be so that people can succeed. Yeah. Sophie Power: Yeah, and neurodiverse folks are notably underemployed, either because they've been working, again, in a system that isn't set up for their success. They are literally underemployed. They're not hitting the potential they could with even minimal support. But then also, there are lots of people that have a desire and a want to do work but are struggling to get through the door and actually would be able to do lots of different jobs and provide lots of sort of value to their own lives and their self-esteem and also the workforce but you know are being held back by silly outdated practices. Joanne Lockwood: And on that note, I think it's been fantastic chatting to you over the last, well, we've actually been talking away for about an hour and a half before we started. And no doubt we could keep talking about, well maybe even dinosaurs. I got obsessed with planets when I was younger, sort of the solar system and I used to write whole projects for myself on the planets, do all the researches and yeah, the temperature on the surface when it was in front of the sun or behind the sun, it was kind of all this kind of stuff. Oh wow. Yeah, we could go on for hours. Sophie, how can people get hold of you? Yeah, Sophie Power: So if folks wish to get a hold of me, the easiest way because I go on there more than any other form of social media is probably LinkedIn. I am on LinkedIn as Sophie Power and then in bracket she, her, mus, which are my pronouns because I updated it before they put the pronoun feature in. And I, yep, I'm at Sophie Power, working at Zink Work as a talent lead. And I'm also can be found via Talent Hacks for Scale-Ups, which is the name of my own podcast. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. That's absolutely amazing. And thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in, for getting this far. I really appreciate your time, and hopefully you've enjoyed this. I have. Please do subscribe, if you're not already, to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Please tell your friends and your colleagues, please share the love. I'm sure they'll enjoy it as well. As you can imagine, I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months. And of course, that may well be you. If you'd like to be a guest, then please let me know. Or if you've got other comments, feedback, or suggestions on how I can improve, then just drop me a line to jo.lockwood at seachangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this show for you today. Catch you next time. Bye!