---
title: "How the term queer became cool again"
episode: 8
date: 2020-06-13
guest: "Joseph Galliano-Doig"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/8-how-the-term-queer-became-cool-again
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-008/audio.mp3
---

# How the term queer became cool again

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Joseph Galliano-Doig, co-founder and CEO of Queer Britain, to explore how the word “queer” shifted from a weaponised slur to a reclaimed, inclusive umbrella term. They discuss generational differences in how the term lands, the importance of self-identification, and how language, intent, and context shape who holds power in a conversation. Joe shares his career across LGBTQ+ media and advocacy, and the motivation behind establishing the UK’s first national, bricks-and-mortar LGBTQ+ museum. Together they reflect on why a permanent space matters for visibility, cultural memory, and creating somewhere both queer and non-queer people can learn, connect, and feel proud of these histories. The conversation also touches on life during lockdown, including the ways isolation can be especially difficult for people who are not out or who are living in hostile environments. They discuss workplace inclusion as a potential refuge, the pressures of constantly managing language and disclosure, and the wider social climate—including trans rights debates in the media and renewed global attention on racism and allyship.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Choosing name was tricky; 'Queer' most inclusive.
- 08:51 — Pushing against open doors, idea's time. Responsibility.
- 11:06 — People coming together to support queer project.
- 16:04 — Routine of shouting days, playful morning banter.
- 22:15 — Workplace importance, authenticity, inclusion, and acceptance.
- 31:25 — Media focuses on negative trans stories for reaction.
- 34:42 — Challenging validity of unsupported anecdotal stories.
- 42:09 — Power's ruthlessness impacts everyone, especially black people.
- 47:30 — Unexpected encounter leads to realisation of identity.
- 51:00 — She doesn't see herself as a wife.
- 57:04 — Multiple identities shape who we are socially.
- 01:03:08 — Thanks for listening, subscribe for more. Guests welcome.

## Key takeaways

- The politicisation of public displays of affection and its impact on LGBTQ+ individuals.
- The importance of gender-neutral language and the effects of misgendering within the community.
- The impact of the pandemic on identity, community, and the collective consciousness of LGBTQ+ people.
- Insights from a new research project on queer experiences during the pandemic, spearheaded by Goldsmiths and Kent State University.
- The multiple identities individuals navigate and how social constructs shape these identities.
- The historical reclamation of the term "queer" and its newfound inclusivity and acceptance within the LGBTQ+ community.
- The vision for Queer Britain, the first national LGBTQ+ museum in the UK, and its goal to foster inclusivity for all, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity.

## FAQs

### What is the primary topic of this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast?

This episode explores the cultural journey of the term "queer"—how it evolved from being a pejorative term to becoming a widely accepted and inclusive identifier within the LGBTQ+ community.

### Why do Joseph Galliano and Joanne Lockwood discuss public signs of affection?

They discuss this to highlight how acts like a kiss between partners can be politicised and the societal pressures that make LGBTQ+ individuals wary of showing affection in public, mirroring their personal experiences.

### What does Joseph Galliano say about being misidentified?

Joseph shares his experiences of being misidentified and the constant need to correct people's assumptions about his identity, which ties into the broader conversation on language and self-identification.

### What is "nibbling," and why is it discussed in the episode?

"Nibbling" is a gender-neutral term for the non-gendered sibling of a parent. Joanne Lockwood discusses this term to emphasize the importance of gender-neutral language and addressing misgendering.

### How has the pandemic affected LGBTQ+ identities and communities, according to the discussion?

Joseph and Joanne examine a research project with Goldsmiths and Kent State University that looks into queer people's experiences during the pandemic. They discuss how isolation and virtual interactions have impacted identity and community bonds.

### What are the hopes expressed by the speakers for the post-pandemic future?

They hope for a stronger sense of community and more inclusive values to emerge, urging society to take lessons from both the positive and negative experiences during the pandemic.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify and all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a. Decaf and let's get going. Today is episode eight with the title how the Term Queer Became Cool Again. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Joseph Galliano. I met Joe following an introduction from a mutual friend, Kate Bosnsworth, who was the CMO at M&C Saachi. She thought we'd have loads to talk. About and we

Joseph Galliano: did, and I don't. Think we've stopped talking since. Joe is the co

Joanne Lockwood: founder and CEO of Queer Britain, a charity working to establish the first national LGBTQ Plus museum. But he's been a journalist, editor of the Gay Times, a book editor, a third sector major donor fundraiser, an ambassador manager and a senior corporate network leader. Surprised? I guess I can't do anything else. And I asked Joe to describe his. Superpower and he said,

Joseph Galliano: other people. So. Hello, Joe.

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to the show. Hello. I'm

Joseph Galliano: exhausted hearing that. I think I need to have a lie down.

Joanne Lockwood: Well, we'll have plenty of time for that later, I'm sure. So tell me, how did the term Queer become cool again? It's funny, because we had quite a long

Joseph Galliano: discussion as an organisation about what we were going to call ourselves, which was that was always the hardest thing to do, really, in the early stages. And we really thought about what is it that young people in particular, how do they refer to themselves now, and what is also the most inclusive term under that big long acronym that rolls on and on? And Queer was the only moniker under that acronym that actually everybody can stand underneath. So for us, it was about being as inclusive as possible. But also, I think it's that last little bit of reclaiming, because it's still problematic for a lot of people yeah. Of a certain generation. I know many people that when they hear that

Joanne Lockwood: word, it sends shivers down their spine. They've heard it so many times as a word of abuse directed towards them. I guess it's about time. It's definitely been a stick

Joseph Galliano: to beat people and it has been used for a long time, I think. Right back to Lord Queensbury, oscar Wilde Bosey's father, oscar Wilde's lover's father, who used queer in that pejorative sense. One of the things I thought was quite I certainly make absolutely no claim to having been key in disarming that word. But if you go back to the early ninety s and you look at an organisation like group like Queer Nation, which was a split off from the HIV AIDS activist group Act Up. And they obviously embraced the word queer as an act of radical defiance. Yeah, I think the the fact that. Most people

Joanne Lockwood: now use LGBTQ Plus, the queue obviously being queer, it's gained acceptance and it's belonging normal conversation. It's part of the acronym, if you like, for anyone who doesn't identify either sexually or gender hetero, CIS, normative, if you like. It's a term for anyone who wants to be who is just themselves. It's

Joseph Galliano: that kind of sexual and gender nonconforming and I think there's a beautiful plasticity to it that it can be embraced to mean what you want it to mean and outside of kind of academic circles, I think that's what people do with it and that's what I find most exciting about it. Yeah. Personally

Joanne Lockwood: I'm quite comfortable describing myself as queer in a queer community around queer people. I think if someone, as you said, used it pejoratively or weaponized it against me, I'd find it offensive but as an I am moniker it works quite. Well for me and that's about control and self

Joseph Galliano: identification, isn't that? Yeah, completely. Where does the power reside in the use of a word? If you can take it and use it for yourself and you can use it affectionately, then you're holding that power and I think that it comes back to exactly like you say, though the intent, where is the violent? If there's violent intent, then actually you hear the violence rather than the word. Yeah, I suppose you could use any word with

Joanne Lockwood: violent intent and it would sound violent. Flowers. Don't

Joseph Galliano: you dare hit me with those flowers.

Joanne Lockwood: With the right intent or the wrong intent, you can weaponize anything, I guess, as you say, by reclaiming the queer and identity that I'm proud of, I own that and I take the power back. So I completely understand that. And this is why also,

Joseph Galliano: particularly for some older people in particular who have had it used against them as a slur, it can be hard for people to kind of step outside, step away from that pain, which is tough. So

Joanne Lockwood: you had this crazy idea of co founding the first LGBT museum in the UK, or fixed space LGBTQ Plus Museum. There's been many roaming ones, hasn't there? But this is kind of the first one. You're aiming to have a fixed permanent home? Yeah, I mean, there have been

Joseph Galliano: plenty of really good exhibitions and great community projects and so forth. This is the first, actually not the first attempt to get project like this up and running, but the first attempt for a while to establish a national bricks and mortar museum. We'll also always do pop ups around the country and so forth, but it feels like bricks and mortar is a really important thing in terms of the sort of symbolism of what does it mean? In terms of how do we show, as a country whose stories and artefacts we value and how can we own them for ourselves as well? So that was the why? That was the reason

Joanne Lockwood: that you felt it was important to create this sort of snapshot, this storytelling, capturing the lives and the moments of people for future generations, queer and non queer people. Yeah. And

Joseph Galliano: actually, that's absolutely, really vital, is that we think of it as the LGBTQ plus museum for all, regardless of sexuality or gender identity. I keep coming back to it's. The image and I know we've talked about this before, but it's the image of young woman who's just come out to a mother and trying to create somewhere that they can both go to together so they can both come away feeling excited to be a part of this set of communities and understanding their own family a lot better and coming away just excited with the possibilities of the world and all it can offer.

Joanne Lockwood: So have you found it's been received by, A, I suppose, the queer community, and B, by the non queer community? Have you found there's a real kind of yeah, we need this, or has it been a struggle? No, I've been

Joseph Galliano: pushing against it feels like I've been pushing against one open door after another. It feels like an idea whose time really has come. It's so funny, Joe, because I started off, in some ways, just sort of thinking, like, what's the most exciting thing I could do right now? And I knew emotionally what it meant to me. I know emotionally what it would have meant for me to see myself better reflected in the culture. I hadn't somehow made that leap as to how that would feel for other people. Quite often I've been talking to people about what we're doing, actually, strangely, in business meetings or with community activists, and you suddenly realise that they're talking to you, but there's a tear in it, they've kind of welled up. And I think the first few times that happened, that was a real signal for me, that it was like, okay, this is really important, this is something to be carried with a great sense of responsibility. And I feel very privileged to be able to do everything in my power to hold that and make that happen.

Joanne Lockwood: So I suppose in the same way that a church is not the building, it's the people. The Cream museum, effectively, is the community, the people coming together, the memories it holds that you treasure beyond just the bricks and mortar. Yes. Although I see the bricks

Joseph Galliano: and mortar being a very strong signal, and that's kind of creating the what would the right word be? The crucible for the beacon to be sitting in, so that that can be then seen around the world and so that people can see the value in these stories. And understand why this is important, that this is important.

Joanne Lockwood: Some sort of North Star shining light that everyone could focus on. One of the things that I became, I suppose, aware of when I first met you, we started talking about this. It was just a conversation over a coffee in a cafe, effectively, I think. Then I came to some of the launch events and I met some of the other people who are involved with the project. And I think you hear so much from the community, or wherever the community is. The population of people who are queer about negativity, around business, around Pinkwashing, around the government, MPs, parliament, civil service, not representing or not considering queer people. But what I was struck by was the depth and breadth of people involved with the project, who are sponsoring it, who are promoting it, who are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with the museum from that launch at Dover House. Number of people there and the Demershire Club, the one there. There was such a number of diverse people from all over. Okay, maybe the privileged side of London, maybe. To be fair, we started off with

Joseph Galliano: very much a focus on developing a donor community. In those early days, there was definitely privilege in those rooms. You need that to get things going. But I felt it's being wielded for the

Joanne Lockwood: benefit of the community. It wasn't privileged for privilege sake. It's privileged using its privilege for amplification and to establish this and be a part of it and be proud. And to be proud. I mean, there's many people who are not proud to be openly queer. But in those rooms there were people who were prepared to be openly queer. And back the project.

Joseph Galliano: And what is wonderful is the amount of times those people, they say, how can I help? And that some of the most powerful four words you can hear, aren't they? Really? Yeah. Because that was a real powerful amount, I think. Last year there was

Joanne Lockwood: that event that Coots organised in 440 Strand, wasn't there? Where they had the massive rainbow stripes on the outside of their main office, their flagship, global flagship office in London. I can't

Joseph Galliano: tell you how much that made me both sort of proud and give a wry smile. The fact that Coots had taken such a bold move to know it's a private bank, that's kind of pretty conservative type of organisation, one would think the Queen's Bank. And we've slapped the word queer on the front of it in one of the most high profile locations in the country. And you can talk about Pinkwashing. And I don't think in that particular instance that was a demonstration of Pinkwashing in the slightest. I think that was done well within that sector. A bit of bravery, actually.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it was. I worked for Coops in the in the whole place at 440 Strand was so controlled about who could be seen on the on the banking floor, which entrance you could come into, which escalator what you were allowed to wear as an employee. They still have the frock coats. Have frock coats and they used to have that massive revolving tree in the foyer right on the ground floor, which used to rotate once every 24 hours really slowly. I didn't know that. Yeah, you wouldn't notice because it rotated so slowly because obviously they wanted the tree to grow upwards, not twist and things into the sunlight, so they had to rotate it. Fantastic. And a massive koi carp pond in the middle. It was like still there. I found it clear that night there were what, 100, 200 people in the foyer there in a reception celebrating pride. Celebrating coots's celebration of pride with queer Britain dead centre. I thought that was. You know we've done other things with them

Joseph Galliano: as well. They've been sort of happy to introduce us to some of their clients. They've been happy to hosted us for a donor dinner and actually just some of the staff there are there at the end of the phone when you need to talk things through. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: So we're now in June, aren't we? So this 2 June 2020 is it June? I've lost track.

Joseph Galliano: I actually googled the day the other day. What day is it today? It's funny, my wife and

Joanne Lockwood: I had this routine when she was being furloughed. We lost track of days so we got in the habit of wake up in the morning shouting out the day of the week it was so we both remember what day of the week. And religiously we always do pinch punch the first of the month when we wake up in the morning. It's kind of like a commando assault on each other. The first one to get in wins. It's kind of like we've had for years and sometimes it can get quite over the top. I wouldn't say violent, but certainly it gets a bit risky with people looping each other and I've got this app on my phone and I just realised that my lockdown effectively starts on the 13 March and that's eleven weeks ago and it's like, where's that time going?

Joseph Galliano: It's funny. How are you coping with it all? How are you? I've

Joanne Lockwood: worked from home on and off for quite a while and in the last couple of years quite a bit. But I'd always intersperse working from home or working remotely with trips to London, clients delivering, travelling the world. So this is the first time I've been consciously at home so much and occasionally I go a bit stir crazy. I need to get out. I realise that I haven't really been out much for four or five days and even then it's just to put the bins out or have a quick look outside. So we're starting to make the most of the weekends now. It's socially acceptable to be out more, to social distance more and to sort of put some deck chairs in a local park. So, yeah, I'm capping. Okay. I've got plenty to keep me busy. This podcast, for one, and having conversations with people on Zoom. Yeah, I'm doing all right. How about yourself? Yeah,

Joseph Galliano: I'm lucky enough to be living in a sort of fairly rural part of North Essex. We have shops just down the road. Local shops just down the road. My husband's a gardener, so the garden's lovely. I think it would be churlish to say that I haven't been enjoying some aspects of that. I'm certainly not missing commuting. I was travelling about 4 hours a day, so I'm not missing that at all. But it does make me think, what would this be like for the single parent living on the 17th floor who doesn't have those luxuries? Must be tough.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's not easy in those situations. We're in a first floor, two bed flat with one living room, so, yeah, we can get on top of each other and we don't see a lot of the outside. There's not a lot out there apart from a road. So, yeah, we do need to get out of it. But, yeah, you're right. There's a lot of people out there who are either living alone, who've been very isolated, or, as you say, a single parent, or even worse, in some respects, a different problem, where there's multiple generations living in the same household, all trying to compete for space, internet, computers, tabletops, which can be equally stressful.

Joseph Galliano: Yeah, I think it can throw people together into emotional soups that they might not have either wanted to find themselves in or they may have had other way, other releases for and actually, as well for some queer people. Particularly tough times if you're stuck in a hostile environment, if you're stuck in an environment where you can't be yourself and there's no way of actually going out to the places where you can be yourself. If you're in the closet. Yeah, it must be must be very tough for I think there are particular challenges, I think, for many LGBTQ plus people.

Joanne Lockwood: I think we're starting by saying that the Pride Month is cancelled. So this was obviously a global celebration month for people that all the marches, all the Pride events have now been virtualized. It's hard to imagine some of them taking place over Zoom until Eurovision. I really had an amazing night watching the Eurovision Revisited, the online version, the way that the production company still put an event on in a different way. And I thought it was fantastic. I thought they missed a trip, though. They could have still done the voting. They could have played all the songs and still had the voting. We could have all joined in still. I didn't see it. And I sometimes wonder if

Joseph Galliano: I'm not gay enough.

Joanne Lockwood: I didn't realise there was a sighting scale. I didn't realise you could be a bit gay. Yeah, very definitely. You're right. It's impacting on people and just the fact that they can't get out, they can't meet people, they can't be themselves. I'm hyper aware of the impact on people who maybe have a gender identity, the trans or non binary, where they live in a family environment or with people who they're not open with, they're not out. And that could be a real challenge. There's no way they can sort of get any respite in that situation. Maybe, unless they're zooming, even though that's difficult. I know some trans people who are out at work but not out or not fully out at home, or that they're not out with their kids, or they're living in a marriage where it's not acceptable to be themselves. So work is their respite, and now they have to do zoom calls in. An environment where

Joseph Galliano: they don't want to. Go back to their birth gender for a

Joanne Lockwood: zoom call for work, but then. They can't fully express themselves when they're. In a household with other people. So it's a real dilemma for certain people. Yeah, it must be. I think this also goes to

Joseph Galliano: show why the workplace for many people is such an important place. And I shy away from this kind of use of the word authentic, which kind of it does, I think gets I think gets perhaps overused in a corporate setting. But that said, where cultures within companies can be made to be inclusion. And I'm not talking about diversity in the sense of headcounts and making sure that we've tick got one of them. Tick got one of them. I'm talking about how do you make the workplace somewhere that actually you can feel celebrated in and accepted in and that you can bring your best professional self to work in without worrying about too much of that other baggage. And there's not enough companies that are like that. Are we getting better? Obviously still a long way to go,

Joanne Lockwood: but is it better than it was? Certainly, I

Joseph Galliano: would say obviously I don't want to speak for trans. I certainly can't speak for trans people. Certainly as a certainly as a gay man seems better to me. But if we're talking about where a white, middle class gay man sits on that privilege ladder within the sets of communities, then it's possible that I'm not getting the best view for other people. I suppose my

Joanne Lockwood: experience is variable, it's situational. There are pockets of issues, but there are large swathes of places that are fully accepting. I spend most of my time in the world being embraced for who I am. It could well be that I've got my blinkers on and my hearing aid turned down, so I don't hear the negativity, but I don't experience much of an issue these days. But then again, I'm white, I'm relatively privileged, and I live in a world that is quite comfortable. So, yeah, maybe I'm not the best judge. Yeah. And it comes back to it's funny, I always sort of

Joseph Galliano: think about the William Gibson quote, which is the future's here. It's just not very evenly distributed, and I think that's true. Obviously, the experience of somebody who is black and trans or sort of genderqueer in some other way is going to be very different than for somebody who looks like me. And it's also going to be different if in the sort of company that you're working, are you working in a big corporate that's got policies kind of within an inch of their lives? Or are you talking about people who are working in SMEs that are maybe led by one entrepreneur who may have opinions that haven't been filtered through an HR department?

Joanne Lockwood: That's a very good way of putting it. Yeah. Shooting from the hip. Exactly.

Joseph Galliano: Yes, quite. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: The unfiltered politicians speak, isn't it? From over the water. Yeah, really. But that's true. I think you're right. I think companies who are multinationals, big corporates, tend to have great policies, great HR teams, great inclusion strategies, employee networks, staff groups that cover all different intersections of diversity. But, yeah, I think in the small business community, they either get it or they don't. There's a real challenge there. It's often hand to mouth watching the bottom line. They're probably quite sexist still, let alone homophobic or transphobic or biphobic.

Joseph Galliano: Yeah. They're still struggling with the basics around gender. Well, let's face it, most of us have had a crap boss at some point that creates toxic environments. And that's a very tough, very tough place to be if you're just trying you're going to work to keep the wolf from the door, food on the table and a roof over your head and not necessarily going to work. Going to work to change the world.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, you're right. I think the

Joseph Galliano: world is moving slowly, though. The world is moving slowly, but it's moving.

Joanne Lockwood: I think that each generation passes, each year passes. We're making progress. Maybe not enough progress for a lot of people, but we are making I don't think we're going backwards yet, so let's see where we come. It's funny, though, because

Joseph Galliano: the way I kind of often think about this is that when I think about when I was a teenager and in theory, could have been arrested for holding somebody's hands in public, another man's hands in public if somebody had complained and had reported that as it could have been reported as a breach of the peace. Let alone the fact that when I was 17 and I was living with my first boyfriend who was 19 no. Who was 20. Sorry, wasn't 19. I was 19, he was 23. And at that time, he could have spent seven years in prison for the relationship that we had forward fast to however many years it is. And, you know, the the idea that I can I can be married and live very comfortably in a rural village without anybody seemingly batting an eyelid is great. The trouble is that when things move quickly, they can also unravel quickly as well. And one of the political reasons, with a little p that I felt it was so important to drive this museum project forward is to help lock down those gains. It's like, what could be my part in helping lock down those gains and make sure that we are kind of properly positioned as ourselves, embraced in the heart of the mainstream, without having to make those compromises about who we are. And that's what I'd really like to see. I

Joanne Lockwood: agree. I think that's where we got to. Try and move society forward. We've got to try, as you say, capitalise on the progress we've made, make sure that we can't go backwards because it only takes a different government, a different political bent, different priorities. I think we've seen that with the frustration around the trans, the gender reform, the GRA Gender Recognition Act consultation to put out. It was a priority for Theresa May's government. We had number of equalities ministers championing it, speaking for it, the Labour leader spoke for it and now it's being kicked into the long grass. And whether I'll ever come back again, who knows whether it's going to be something that will never happen, might happen, it's really difficult to say. And of course, for many non binary people and trans people who are not going through what was traditionally a medicalized process, they feel very vulnerable that they're not going to get acceptance there's. There's gatekeeping, there's talk about rolling back access for child services in terms of young people's, trans access to the gender identity services. So that's all quite worrying and it's giving oxygen to radical groups who are very small in number but very loud, and they have the ear of quite a few editors in big tabloids and broad sheets.

Joseph Galliano: Sorry. No, sorry, go after you. You

Joanne Lockwood: see a lot of Sunday papers from printing kind of the negative trans stories about people detransitioning, about medical issues, about people who about one child who sued their school for allowing gender neutral toilets. And these things hit the national papers, they get promoted. And I spoke with the deputy social affairs editor for one of those papers recently and he was telling me that they get hit with dozens or so stories every week from these vocal groups, all these negative stories. And I said, well, why can't you print something that I want to talk about? And he said, well, tell me a story that's interesting but getting on me in life, being happy, being a functional member society isn't interesting. It's only interesting if something creates a reaction. So I have to do something that was against my nature to be interesting. Whereas all the all other people seem to be doing is finding people who have had a bad experience and amplifying that. Whereas the thousands and thousands of people who don't have a bad experience suddenly have no voice and the only voices you're hearing are the people with problems. And

Joseph Galliano: isn't that true as well, where I'm totally true. When you talk about actually people don't want to be the subject of debate. They just sort of want to get on with their lives. And I think a lot of the rhetoric around trans people now in the media actually very strongly echo how gay men were being talked about sort of 30 years ago. It's quite interesting and salutary to see how history you can read history to make sense of what's happening now. And actually, if you look at how, say, gay men and lesbians were spoken about all that time ago, what are the similarities and the correlations between that and the way that trans people are talked about now in those settings, similar. Messages

Joanne Lockwood: disbelieving is real. We can fix you. You don't have to do this. You're just a phase. You don't know your own mind. Or that's not normal. The biology the world wasn't designed for people to be anything other than men being men and women being women. And a marriage is a relationship between two people of different sex or genders. And we're hearing the same stuff again. And it's to say that people don't know their own mind, they don't have this lived experience, and then demonising people as being predatory when there's such a minority of cases where a predatory person uses the fact to say they're trans, to be predatory. It's such a rare occurrence. Why add the stigma?

Joseph Galliano: Is it even a rare occurrence? I mean, this is the thing, isn't it? Isn't it, that when those stories tend to be looked at, they're unsupported anecdotal stories that have been really used to just sort of whisk up some fear. They've been quite often put out by somebody from the Christian right. And I do mean that in a very you know, when I talk about the Christian right there I mean that in a very specific way. I talk about those people who would use the Bible to deny basic human rights. And it's also that kind of isn't it just a bit boring? And like, how long can you describe people using terms around the shock of the new? How often can you have headlines about this outrageous new trans trend? Just it's such nonsense. And you can't say that same thing again and again and again, and it be true.

Joanne Lockwood: But we see well meaning schools, well meaning government, local government all trying to do what they think is the right thing. Suddenly facing lawsuits, facing people who are anti trans for whatever reason, trying to unpick the Equality Act and reword it to suit their own objectives and basically just make stuff up around it. And then, because everyone's so risk adverse, they think that the status quo is the default option, rather than saying, well, actually the status. Quo is no longer a default option. Trans people have had change. They've had access to services, they've had access to live, and now they're finding those protections roll back because everyone's too. Scared, it's going too quickly.

Joseph Galliano: And aren't trans people just about? Excuse me, that's my mother.

Joanne Lockwood: She can join in. That's my mother on the phone.

Joseph Galliano: I've just lost her.

Joanne Lockwood: Hi, mom. Hello, Mum.

Joseph Galliano: You're on a podcast at the moment. I'm being interviewed for a pod. We're having a conversation for a podcast at the moment. That's my

Joanne Lockwood: mum. Say hello to Joe.

Joseph Galliano: Hello. Hi, Mum. Call you later. Bye bye. Well, that's

Joanne Lockwood: the new norm, isn't it? We have to bring our whole family to work at the moment. Right. That has stopped my

Joseph Galliano: voice memo, so I'm going to start that again. Right. Okay, where were we? I think we're just talking about the rights

Joanne Lockwood: of certainly trans people being kind of questioned and erased in some respect by people who are risk adverse and the loud vocal kind of, as you describe them, the Christian. Right. Well, I wonder

Joseph Galliano: as well, because part of the culture wars, where a few years ago, where you had the defence of the Marriage Act in the States, that was defining marriages between one man. And one woman. In a way that became a proxy for a different sort of culture war, for the culture wars. And it feels like as the argument for same sex marriage has been largely won for now, it's moving into where is the next frontier that they can use to probe and try and kind of break down coalitions that can exist between trans people, lesbians, gay people? How can feminism be used as a way of clawing people apart from each other, as opposed to doing the thing that it really should be doing, which is about bringing everybody together as.

Joanne Lockwood: Mean? I thought I thought it was interesting that Ruth Hunt was speaking in the House of Lords the other day around her support for trans equality. And whilst not everybody loved her in her role at Stonewall, she did certainly advance the focus of Stonewall to look at trans rights and bring it to focus at Stonewall way over to can. We can debate whether she was effective at that, whether it was authentic. But at the end of the day, Stonewall now have a trans positive element and they do a lot of trans awareness training to organisations which love them or hate them. They're doing a fantastic job doing something.

Joseph Galliano: I'm so glad that they are. I'm so glad that they are. Yes, it needs to happen. And actually, I think anything that can keep the L, the G, the B, the T, the Q closer together means that we'll be stronger or just come. Together as Q is. Kind of. The wonderful thing about that is that what I really love is people could just be whoever you are, be whoever you want to be. Yes. Because it doesn't really matter, does it? As long as

Joanne Lockwood: you come from a position of kindness, then you just want to get on with your life. People don't generally want to be bad people, actually.

Joseph Galliano: This is one of the interesting things through history, is that by and large, people have kind of got on with their lives and they've worked their way around the systems as much as they can. And this is no different.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm watching the news. I'm sure you are following what's going on in America at the moment about some of the rhetoric coming out of the White House, some of the statements, but there's the upswell of support around the globe to call out racism to being vocal, being an ally. But it does still show that no matter how far we think we've come, racism is still prevalent in most societies in the Western world. It's just below the surface. Homophobia, biphobia, transphobia are just below the surface. And I think if you amplify those supremacy type voices, then it doesn't take much for these views to surface in clusters here and there.

Joseph Galliano: Isn't it about the ruthlessness of the urge to power, which, when you get a particular kind of, say, character like Trump, for example, and I'm not saying I think Trump is a symptom, he's not the sole problem. But when that kind of when when that sort of power is trying to establish and preserve itself, or is trying to preserve itself, it doesn't really care who it throws under the bus in order to protect its own position and actually divide and conquer. It's a classic tactic, isn't? And I imagine as well, that for a lot of black people in the States and in the UK, probably what they're going to be. I would imagine that they're going to be not surprised to see the films have disturbed other people, have disturbed, actually, lots of white people. Because I think probably what they're going to be saying is, yeah, this is what we experience as black people all the time. This is why black kids are so often taught by their parents how to not attract the attention of police as they're walking out in the street. This is why people are worried when they go out jogging in nice neighbourhoods. Nice meaning white and wealthy.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes, that perception. A black person out for a run with a hoodie on is likely to be there for nefarious purposes, rather than be there just to go for a run. Yeah,

Joseph Galliano: true. Completely true. It's

Joanne Lockwood: something I don't experience even as a trans person. I don't perceive that people perceive me as a threat and a criminal in that way. They may perceive me in other ways. But

Joseph Galliano: they clearly don't know you. Shh. But, no,

Joanne Lockwood: I've never experienced that kind of guilt by perception type. Yeah, okay. Like yourself, I've experienced discrimination in employment, in opportunity, but never being judged as a criminal without cause. Or some of the impact that racism has on people, so I've never experienced that and I can only have a little bit of empathy because I can't understand the full impact of it. I know what I feel about having to cover, having to pass, having to maybe my voice is quite deep, I'm cautious about how I speak in certain company. If I'm on the train, I'm conscious about if I shout out for a cup of coffee, it could cause some sort of kind of confusion amongst the people around me, so I'm very cautious about it but that's nothing compared with a black youth just being themselves, if you like.

Joseph Galliano: How does that make you feel? I mean, what does that do to you on an emotional level or an intellectual level? I assume on an emotional level?

Joanne Lockwood: Well, I suppose what I'm doing is. I'm trying to protect

Joseph Galliano: myself from having. A further situation, so it's better

Joanne Lockwood: to control myself, to maybe whisper or not to ask for a cup of coffee or if I'm out with my wife, sometimes I say, can you go and have that conversation, please? Because I really can't be doing with having to out myself effectively to the waiter or to the person serving or to someone who I want to try. To get

Joseph Galliano: some help from. I think it's just easier for you. Guys feet because I don't really want. To bring me into the equation,

Joanne Lockwood: I've kind of got used to that, but you're right, it's holding back. I'm not bringing my whole self to the world, I'm bringing my whole self society. So, yeah, it does impact and my wife and I are conscious about holding hands, kissing in public, like many, many queer people do, which I find really confusing because she doesn't look any different. To me. Maybe a bit older and a bit more gorgeous, but, yeah, she's matured.

Joseph Galliano: Well, isn't it funny, though, how a kiss between partners can be politicised? Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: We used to go to a lot of National Trust walks, do a lot of National Trust houses, and we would find cubby holes behind doors or behind a curtain somewhere and we'd have a quick snog. I feel like we were really devilish because we were being kind of naughty behind the cupboard sort of thing as grown adults, but we just didn't feel brave enough or open enough to be. Able to sort of just show public. Signs of affection, hold hands walking around. A National Trust building. Well, I had

Joseph Galliano: a funny moment. My experience is, again, it's very gentle, I think, compared with what many people have to experience. But I found myself about five or six years ago, and I was in a local shop near where we just moved into the house that we just moved into and went to buy a bottle of wine. And the woman serving nicest pie, oh, your wife will be pleased with that, obviously. I'm wearing a wedding ring, and I had almost like a weird out of body experience where the thought process went for first of all, I blushed because I thought, well, I can't just let that pass. Because somehow that feels like that's letting my lovely husband down and not kind of respecting that relationship that I have with him. And then there's the conflict of not wanting to be antsy or awkward or rude and then the next thought thinking oh my God I'm as out as it's possible to be. You google my name it is gay, gay, gay out there. You can't get away. There's no going back into the closet for me thankfully. Not that I'd want to exactly, but I also just thought if that is how I felt former editor of Gay Times. Somebody who's been very well supported by his mother, who you just met. Somebody who at the time in his early forty s and has been there, done that. What is it going to be like for somebody who is not so sure of themselves? What is it going to be like for that person who is like a young person who hasn't yet come out the closet or is struggling to come out the closet or is struggling with our identity issues. And I just felt in that moment it was like well I have to say something because for that person I can't leave that unsaid. And so just actually very kind of politely it was just like oh husband actually and of course nothing more was said. It was just like oh well, enjoy your wine. And obviously because these situations we're kind of almost trained to think that these things are going to be much bigger than they will be in the moment.

Joanne Lockwood: But, God, it's complicated. That whole series of thoughts that you. Can I was at my wife's Christmas party with her office colleagues, and she started introducing me as her other half. And I sort of laughed at her because I just used to introduce her as my other half in the distant past. And she kind of didn't get upset with me, but she kind of went, oh, other half bit on the side. It sounds a bit yeah I'm your. Wife sort of thing. And then to hear her introduce me as our other half I sort of said well and she said well I thought about it. She said because you're not my wife because technically and legally I'm still a husband. I haven't change that role really. I don't identify as wife in that way and to call me husband when I was in a cocktail dress sound right either and partner didn't quite work either. So we kind of fell back to other half as being kind of a nondescript of we're together and everyone knew she was married to me but described me as a very neutral way of describing me. The people who knew we were married you got to double think these things, haven't you? It's no longer can you just go through life just using everyday language that other people, other straight, normal, typical people use. We have to sort of normal wherever normal is, but the societal norms. Whatever. People use who have never questioned any part of our identity, they just do. They don't think about what they do. Having to double think everything, having to work out the risk, the reward, the impact. Am I going to come across as pedantic? Am I going to come across as really another gay person trying to make trouble or trying to you almost have to think about the impact of what you say back.

Joseph Galliano: Do you? And every time I'm misgendered, do I make a big deal of

Joanne Lockwood: it or don't I? When I talk about my wife, do I say partner? If I'm talking on the phone to somebody, my partner will be down quick, down soon. Do I say wife? Sometimes I just use language that just makes it easier for me not to have to explain it. And I think that's probably what you're saying there as well. Yeah.

Joseph Galliano: Do you ever feel like you kind of also trip up on those things for other people? Is there any anxiety around getting the language right. Doing it deliberately for other

Joanne Lockwood: people? Not deliberately, but the kind of accidental,

Joseph Galliano: say, around misgendering, for example.

Joanne Lockwood: I misgender people occasionally. I misgender myself sometimes. I've described myself as the eldest of three brothers before I ended up correcting myself and saying, well, actually, I'm the eldest of three children, or the eldest three siblings. So, yeah, I've corrected the language of myself. I sometimes refer to myself in the third party sometimes, and I sometimes misgender. Myself historically, but

Joseph Galliano: no. I am I slipped

Joanne Lockwood: up with people before someone was telling me about they were going to be a grandparent. I said, oh, it must be really great to be a granddad. And I thought, actually, that just misgendered you. I haven't actually asked you how you want to identify in relation to that child. I suppose it's that building

Joseph Galliano: I've built assumptions in without letting you tell me what it is that you want. How do I describe myself in relation

Joanne Lockwood: to my brother's children? Am I an uncle? Am I an auntie? What's the sort of the non gendered term? I know a niece and a nephew. The non gendered terms are nibbling. I'm not sure what the reverse? Nibbling. I've

Joseph Galliano: never heard a nibbling. Apparently it's a nibbling is a non

Joanne Lockwood: gendered brother or sister of a parent, but I'm not sure what the reverse is of an aunt or an uncle. The non gender version of that is nibbling. I

Joseph Galliano: like that. I like nibbling. Nibbling. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, it's language, the constructs, I guess we're all working around them, aren't we?

Joseph Galliano: Yeah, yes, very much. And actually, it's funny, it's interesting how, I mean, obviously where we're at now with this pandemic, with everything that's going on. We're about to launch a piece of in the process of launching a piece of research that we're doing with Goldsmiths and Kent State University in Ohio, which is going to be a research project that's going to look at not only experiences in queer people's, experiences across the UK, in pandemic, but it's also going to be looking at that question as to sort of how do these kind of times affect senses of identity? This is a little bit of a sideways kind of thought from what we were talking about, but I wonder how identities are going to change as we come out the other side of this. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I often have this similar thought when I think about the Robinson Crusoe kind of scenario. If I was alone on a desert island, who would I be or how would I be or what would I be? I guess I would re identify as a survivor, primarily, and as a human being trying to survive. So I think identity is relative to your scenario surroundings, and when we're in lockdown, we're kind of almost like in a smaller bubble, so our identity is more limited. We're not expressing it to anybody, we're not being it to anybody, we're not who we are with anybody else. We're just within our own heads. So how do we maintain that identity when no one can see us, no one can hear us, no one can feel us? Well, it's interesting,

Joseph Galliano: isn't it? Because we have all got multiple, multiple identities, different times and with different people. Different parts of those come to the front. So are you a husband, son, bad guitar player, shoddy singer? Someone who's trying to set up a museum? Nephew bloke who likes a bit of banter in the shops on a Saturday morning? Any neighbour? All of these things are different kinds of identities which all in around make us who we are. But, I mean, even the funny thing is, when you think about a mean, these are all social constructs as well, because I'm not Joe. You're not Joe? That's just a label that's been stuck on your not. That's not nothing intrinsic about to who you are. We're just this collection of atoms here, assembled in this particular way at this particular moment in time, if that's not too esoteric.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, we could just be seven of nine, couldn't we?

Joseph Galliano: Yes. Just defined by

Joanne Lockwood: where we live or where we sit. Third person from the right. It's just a way of controlling policing, organising, helping us fit identify each other. Yeah. It's probably less devaluing than describing a feature of you. If you have a name, it doesn't become, is that Joe with the which which Joe with the oh, Joe with the glasses and the long hair? It's Joe Lockwood sort of thing. So we can create a name and label that isn't relative to how we look or where we're from, I suppose. Yeah. And I

Joseph Galliano: guess at the end of the day, how do we just allow ourselves to be ourselves?

Joanne Lockwood: And that sounds like a great moment to ask you kind of where's the world going from now then, what's your predictions for the Lockdown and the communities?

Joseph Galliano: Well, I wouldn't dream of making predictions. I mean, I certainly would have hopes. I hope that this is one of those moments and including actually it's all interconnected what's happening in the States at the moment, the pandemic. And I would hope that out of this we'll emerge with a greater sense of community, better sense of values about. What'S important and what's just g jaws. I wouldn't dream of predicting. What do you think, where do you think we're going?

Joanne Lockwood: I oscillate between hope that we won't go backwards and that we'll learn a lot from this. But then I see what's going on at the beaches, I see what people are doing the moment they're allowed to go out, allowed to unlock. Old behaviours are coming back very quickly. The anti government rhetoric is starting up again, the politicalness is starting up again, the division is starting up again. I'm not sure we'll learn all the lessons. Will we see this as a sad time, a happy time, or a time for learning? I don't know. I'd like to see where we are now as a time for learning the great social experiment and hopefully we'll take stuff from this and learn from it. And

Joseph Galliano: it's all those things, isn't it? Yeah, it's all of those things.

Joanne Lockwood: Too many people have lost things for everyone to be happy. So I think we have to find a way of helping the people who've lost a lot, but also allowing those people to recognise what they have gained. I think we've gained a

Joseph Galliano: lot. People are speaking to people they've never spoken to before or haven't spoken to

Joanne Lockwood: another a long time. They're spending more time with the families that the children are spending more time with their parents. We're commuting less pollution is down. There's a whole lot of stuff we can take and let's hope we keep the good stuff and chuck the bad stuff out with the bathwater, not the baby. As I

Joseph Galliano: guess, an anxious optimist, I'd say that I think it's really important that in however tough times are, we've got to kind of make sure that positives can be taken out of them. And I really hope that that's the case now. Obviously, I'm anxious about straightened times, I'm anxious about the things that people have lost, I'm anxious about all of those things, but I'm also hopeful that greater community can come out of this well, many thanks, Joe. I'm sure all agree there's much there to ponder and take

Joanne Lockwood: inspiration from. So how can I listen to get. In touch with you?

Joseph Galliano: If you go to www.queerbritain.org.uk, that's a website for the charity or for the museum, or you can drop me a line to hello@queerbritain.org.uk and yeah. Comments, thoughts, ideas? How can we helps all welcome. Fantastic. Well, a huge thanks to everyone today for

Joanne Lockwood: tuning in and listening. Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Please, please tell your friends and colleagues I have a number of exciting guests lined up and I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. If you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. I would welcome any feedback and suggestions to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk for the future shows and how we can improve. My name is Joanne.