--- title: "You’ve Seven Seconds, Make Them Count" episode: 73 date: 2023-07-20 guest: "Sylvie di Giusto" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/73-youve-seven-seconds-make-them-count audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-073/audio.mp3 --- # You’ve Seven Seconds, Make Them Count Joanne Lockwood is joined by personal branding and first-impression expert Sylvie di Giusto to unpack what really happens in the first few seconds of meeting someone, and why it matters for credibility, opportunity and inclusion. Sylvie shares her ABCDE framework for first impressions: appearance, behaviour, communication, digital footprint and environment. Together they explore how these cues influence the assumptions people make at work, and how professionals can be more intentional about the signals they send in rooms, meetings and online. They also discuss authenticity in the context of professional life, including the trade-offs of sharing personal views on social media and how to communicate with respect for different audiences. The conversation broadens into leadership and development: why organisations often hire for hard skills but lose leaders due to soft-skill gaps, and how self-awareness and emotional intelligence underpin better communication, empathy and active listening. Both reflect on confidence, imposter feelings, and the role of natural talents in helping people thrive and feel a stronger sense of belonging. Along the way, Joanne references her identity as a trans woman and how discomfort or fear of “getting it wrong” can become a barrier to inclusion, while Sylvie shares a moment of learning after worrying she may have caused offence, highlighting accountability and growth as essential habits for respectful workplaces. ## Chapters - 00:01:40 — Person at conference stood out to me. - 00:03:21 — First impressions are based on A-B-C-D-E. - 00:07:57 — Understanding biases in order to influence positively. - 00:13:55 — Being authentic, expressing beliefs, and embracing polarity. - 00:15:32 — Experts needed to educate and enlighten us. - 00:19:46 — Conversation often becomes attempts to persuade others. - 00:23:57 — The importance of focusing on talents. - 00:28:21 — Finding passion and ability is where magic happens. - 00:30:03 — Discover your unique selling points and stand out. - 00:34:21 — First words matter, make them count. Care. - 00:40:59 — Discover your perception DNA with a quiz. - 00:44:13 — Importance of not projecting unapproachable persona. - 00:50:27 — Accent turned weakness becomes unique superpower. - 00:53:10 — Accepting being tokenized, embracing unique voice. - 00:56:57 — Check Sylvie's website it is a brilliant example. - 00:58:00 — Thank you! ## FAQs ### Q: What is the ABCDE framework mentioned in the episode? The ABCDE framework stands for Appearance, Behaviour, Communication, Digital footprint, and Environment - all factors that influence first impressions. ### Q: How can biases be utilized in entrepreneurship? Understanding biases allows entrepreneurs to shape perceptions and control conversations, positively influencing others' biases towards their business or idea. ### Q: How can personal and business online presence be balanced? While there's a blending of personal and business presence online, it's essential to be measured and conscious about the information we share, taking into account the impact on perceptions. ### Q: What is the significance of making a strong initial impression within seconds? Studies show that people form lasting impressions within seconds of meeting someone. Making a positive impact within those initial moments is crucial for building successful relationships. ### Q: Can you provide an example of how one's perceived weakness can become a superpower? The speaker shares their personal story of feeling uncomfortable with their accent. Eventually, they realized their accent made them sound like an international expert, turning what they initially saw as a weakness into one of their superpowers. ### Q: How can I make the best first impression in a conversation? Start by genuinely caring about the other person, use their name, and show preparation by researching their background or organization. Lastly, focus on displaying care, the most valued word in a first impression. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. To join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today. It's episode 73 with the title You've Seven Seconds, Make Them Count. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sylvie di Giusto. Sylvie describes herself as someone who helps professionals around the world understand what their first and lasting impression says about them and how it impacts the way they perceive themselves. When I asked Sylvie to describe her superpower, she said in her work, it's substance, significance and creativity, and at home, empathy, happiness and responsibility. Hello, Sylvie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so Sylvie di Giusto: thrilled and excited to be with you. I've been looking forward to this Joanne Lockwood: as well since we met a few weeks back, that conference in Dublin. It's been great to have you finally here. So, Sylvie, tell me, You've Seven Seconds, how do we make them count? Sylvie di Giusto: Well, let me start with an example, one that you actually just mentioned. A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure to join a conference in Dublin where some of the most successful speakers from around the world gather to learn. And just imagine me walking into this room where there are around 300 people, and instantly, within the first seconds, somebody in that huge crowd stood out to me. I instantly saw her, noticed her, wanted to know more about her, wanted to get to know her, wanted to feel out that person because she stood out. And guess what? That was you, Joanne. And so you made your 7 seconds definitely count, because we know that it has nothing to do with the fact if you are a good human being, a bad human being. We walk into meetings at work, we walk into meetings with clients and people instantly, instantly kind of judge you, like it or not. We make assumptions. And in the best case, those are good assumptions, like I had about June. And I instantly thought, this is a person I need in my life. And I'm so excited that we reconnected. Joanne Lockwood: Wow, you kind of maybe got flustered there. Thank you. I'm very honoured to think so. And I completely agree completely that we are, as a human species, we are kind of have this bias, this fight, flight, freeze mechanism in our head. And that 1st 7 seconds is that window of opportunity to establish who we are with somebody else isn't exactly and. Again, it has nothing to do Sylvie di Giusto: if you are a female or a male, if you are old or young, if you are your body or in the body of Mother Teresa we all do it. It's actually brain performance happening. There is science behind it that tells us kind of exactly what happens in our brains. It doesn't really matter if it's 7 seconds or milliseconds if it's 11 seconds. There are different studies out there but all of them have in common that we do form opinions about somebody instantly based on what I call the ABCDE of a first impression. And if you don't mind, I run you quickly through that framework that you know how you can use this to your advantage, especially at work. The A stands for your appearance, the way you look. Like it or not, we are all visual creatures. Our brains are actually quite lazy. They don't like to work so they take a shortcut through our eyes. We look at somebody and instantly, based on their body image, their clothing, their skin, their teeth, their smile, their hair, their accessories, we think we know something about that person. Is it fair? No, it isn't. Does it happen? Absolutely. But just to be clear, looking good is great, but it's not enough because at one point we are going to be for behave your attitude, is it positive, is it negative? Do you have the aura like you have that I instantly was gravitating towards you and thought I want to know more about that person based on her behaviour, emotional intelligence. How do you, for example, apply business etiquette skills? Do you look somebody in the eyes or not? Do you shake somebody's hands or not? Are you on your phone all the time? So how do you behave in micro moments that might not be relevant to you but at work might be relevant for your client or for your boss or for your team member and then at one point you're going to say something. So it's the C four communication and it's about what you say and how you say it. Let's first start with how you say it. Your voice is a very powerful tool. It's like an instrument that you play every single day and most of us never learn to play that instrument, we just play it. And how do you communicate? Are you a clear communicator? Are you a passive aggressive communicator? How do you start conversations? What do you actually say? Your tone, your pace, your voice. Do you have an accent like I have? Do you have specific patterns, communication patterns that you apply that ABC with a very common model? I have added the diesel for your digital footprint because I find that nowadays most often we don't make a first impression anymore in person. I was lucky to meet you in person the first time, but in reality most often we make a first impression with the emails that we send with the social media profiles that we create with the conscious and unconscious digital footprints that we leave behind on the internet. And if you are at work and think, well, my social media that is personal, that is private, that has nothing to do with my personal, with my professional life, then you are very wrong. Because if there are two things that don't belong together, it's the internet and it's private. Right. And then the environment, the environment you operate in, the E Four environment, the people you hang out with, the people you surround yourself, are they all alikes? Lookalikes or do you put conscious effort into surrounding yourself with people you can learn something from, but also your environment, such as the office, the car that you drive, the house that you live, we are going vacation. Everything that we find out about you and your environment will influence the instant opinion we have about you. So thank you very much for letting me quickly run through. But now you know how with your ABCDE you can actually a little bit control the imprint you make on others. What you can't control, and you are such an expert in that topic, is which unconscious biases you are fighting on the other side. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that's really, really interesting because one of the things I've come to think about over the last few years is that whilst we want to strive to eliminate unconscious bias to create fairness, create opportunity, as an entrepreneur, as you are, we want to play those biases. We have to understand the biases that are in play. And as you say the ABCDE, we have to think about how we're going to come across. So we want to influence someone's bias positively, not let them almost like control that conversation in that way, isn't it? Because we're giving them the help that we want to be perceived, they're then reacting to the information we're providing. So I think if you think about sales, we think about marketing, it's all around playing to someone's bias or their emotions or their connection. Whilst I love to remove unconscious bias, I want to make sure that I'm playing the bias positively. I love what you said about the digital footprint. I've been very conscious that my personal and business life online presence are blending into one. And I'm not saying that I'm inauthentic, but I am very measured about the stories I share personally and I'm very conscious about what it says about me. If I'm going to say that I'm sad and unhappy or struggling or stressed, I put it in context not as a wound, but as a scar. So I'm saying the takeaway from this is what I've learned from this. I think what you're saying there is we've got to be there's 7 seconds, as you say. 10 seconds. 7 seconds, 2 seconds. This ABCDE is beyond just that first visual impression of someone, isn't it? Absolutely. And when Sylvie di Giusto: it comes to your digital footprint. I know that many people think, well, let me just be authentic online the way I'm authentic offline. But here's the problem with authenticity, something that authenticity means I don't have to care anymore. I can just do, say, behave whatever I want. And I think the opposite. Obviously, you are a human being with ups and downs. We all have them. But at the end of the month, at least, I rely on a paycheck and so do many people who work in corporations. So I need to take into consideration that, yes, I should be authentic even online. But there is kind of a limit on how I can share my opinions, always knowing that possibly I can offend somebody on the other side, for example, or also being aware of you don't know which opportunities you miss out because of your digital footprint. We don't know how many clients don't call us to speak at their conferences because they found that post online or that picture online, or that email that has been forwarded to them and we don't even know about it, and decide, no, that is not the speaker I want to work with. Yeah, and I suppose the rule I Joanne Lockwood: have is that my mum is on Facebook, so whenever I post something, I think my mum is going to read this. Yes, how do I want my mum to interpret it? And my children and my wife and my friends, not just my business professionals. But I don't want to alarm people. And I consider myself quite a positive person. So any post I have that has a deep reflection has to have a positive outcome, or at least say, this is how I felt, this is why I'm down, this is why I'm not feeling great, but I'm taking away from this positivity or this is what I'm going to bounce back. So I always have that kind of mantra, if you like, in my social media posts, to leave people in a story and a journey and leave them with a punchline that's positive or at least informative or something to take away. And that's not inauthentic. And I agree with you, authenticity isn't being able to speak without regard, not being offensive, being derogatory. People who take that view of authenticity, I think, have misread the situation. It's about being true to yourself, but also understanding your place in society as well. I think you have to understand your social responsibility. Some other thoughts. Sylvie di Giusto: First of all, I'm excited that you put so much effort into this and also always ending up ending on a positive note, even if you share something sad or something that impacted you negatively. Because the reality is, if we don't need one more thing, it's more negative. People, even in the online space, right? We all like to surround ourselves with positive people who all have struggles. You and I have struggles, and you can absolutely share those struggles online as long as you always keep in mind who is reading it and how could they possibly interpret it. And I'm going to add two more Ms for you. I always say your mom should be able to read it without having a heart attack. Your manager and your minister. The three m's. Three M's. In the end, it's all about showing respect. I think respect is incredibly important. First and foremost, respect for yourself, because you are the most important person in your life. You are the CEO of your career. It's not human resources, it's not your boss, it's not your CEO. You are the CEO of your career. So you need to show yourself some respect in that role. And then, obviously, only if you show respect to yourself, you have the capability to show respect to others too. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. One of the things I don't know if you remember, there was I won't mention the person in detail, but there's someone at the conference we were both at and he was talking about the fact that he would never share his political views or other polarising beliefs he may have in case it turned one side off or lent. Or he would, as you say, lose business. I take a slightly different approach that I would rather say what I believe, say why I believe something and if that turns people off, for me, it's almost like we probably weren't good fits anyway. My identity as a trans woman can polarise people. I'm not going to hide that I'm going to be me. If that turns you off, then that's fine, because I recognise that it's going to turn more people on or the right people on than the wrong people off, sort of thing. So I think in terms of my authenticity, hinting at my political beliefs without being a political commentator is important because I want to talk about social justice. I don't want to be leaning to the right, I want to be leaning to the centre and to the left slightly, where we are looking at communities and governments that are investing in people, not minimalizing the state. So I'm happy to talk about that. I'm happy to sort of commentate on some of the injustices that are going on in the world through that lens as well. And I think that's important because that's part of my brand, to have those opinions. Here's exactly the point. Sylvie di Giusto: You are an expert in this area. We need you to talk about things like that. We need you to educate us on those different things and help us understand the world because we have blind spots, we have our own biases and possibly don't see the things or quite sure, don't see the things through the lenses. You see them. However, here's the difference. You are an expert in that area and you can take a stand. If I'm a sales speaker or if I am a customer experience speaker, then my political opinions are not relevant. For my audience it's always audience and occasion, right? And so I agree and disagree with what that speaker said. Of course people like you need to take a stand and need to educate us and part of that education is your personal view on things that helps me as somebody who don't have the same lenses to identify my blind spots and learn from you but I on the other side. I speak about first impressions and when I post something about politics it rather has nothing to do with my personal political opinion I never take a stand but I help people to see both sides of the coin and how first impressions of a politician, for example, impact voter decisions. So it really depends on the audience and on the occasion, especially if you are a leader in a corporation, what you say out there, what does your political opinion really or how does it really help or does it just add noise to the world? I completely agree with what you're saying Joanne Lockwood: and my view is that you talk about the problem, not the person or the politics so the impact of a decision, not the decision itself or who made it so you're talking about how it affects people and lives. I would never criticise a person or demonise a person or create judgement on a person because generally I don't know them. All I know is what I see on the news or the paper or hear about. So I'm really conscious about that judgement you make. And it actually annoys my wife that I will say that maybe one of her comments is unfair. And she goes, well, you always take somebody outside. No, I'm not taking somebody outside. What I'm doing is trying to step back from the person and look at the decision or the problem. And that's what I want to commentate about my view on the opinion, not who made it and why they made it. Sylvie di Giusto: Very well done. And that view helps us to understand the problem without also on top not judging the person you are commenting on. Joanne Lockwood: You said audience and occasion. I think that is and I talk about context, which is what we're saying there, isn't it? What is good language, what is good to conversation, what is good in one situation, in a different context, with a different audience, can have a different connotation, can have different meanings and can polarise in the wrong way so I think it is important to understand who your audience is. One problem there is when we communicate Sylvie di Giusto: very often we focus on the things that we say and how we should say them and when we should say them and what we should say but the reality, the most important part of communication is actually not speaking, it is listening, active listening. I think we all can do a better job in active listening to the other person and then adjusting our communication but very often we start with what should we say to impress the person, to sound interesting, but we rather should be interested. Not interesting. Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. And I find when we communicate and talk, often we're trying to persuade the other person of our belief. So if you think about many conversations, you initiate it's. Like I'm saying now, I'm trying to persuade you that I'm right by what I say. And most conversations are like that. And if we're not careful, we don't actually listen to the other people's view or opinion or perspective, we're never going to change our view. So it's trying to work out how we can be, as you say, active listener, not reinforce our confirmation bias, not play to those biases when we have and be kind of open to new thinking. Sylvie di Giusto: Empathy all it requires empathy. If you're an empathetic communicator, you know how to listen well to the other person and respond based on what they just told you. Yeah, completely. And Joanne Lockwood: I think that is sometimes not not as prevalent in leadership. In many organisations. We tend to promote good technicians, senior administrators, into leadership roles without giving them the right tools, because we know we can train leadership. We know we can train leadership. You're not born. Maybe some people have inherently different personalities that are more attuned to leader roles, but we know we can train leaders now and we often don't invest well enough in those soft skills. The empathy, the emotion, the compassion, the emotional intelligence, the listening. Yes. I spent Sylvie di Giusto: 20 years in human resources myself, working for a big organisation in Europe. Some of you might actually know them. Kashdat Kwali, which was a retailer, and Thomas Cook, which you certainly know. And I was responsible for building up their management academy for their top 100 leaders. And what was fascinating for me is I always found that we hired leaders for their hard skills, but we fired them because of their soft skills or. The lack of yes. Or the lack of soft skills. Exactly. And so things like emotional intelligence, conflict management, communication skills, to a certain degree, they are all so important for leaders in organisation. And I encourage everybody listening who is somehow influential in their organisation to figure out how to help those leaders get ahead in the way they represent themselves, because they also represent your organisation by applying these soft skills or the lack of soft skills. Joanne Lockwood: But I don't think we invest enough time. You're completely right. I think it is a case of recognising that we can train technical skills, we can't always train human attitudes or values. And I think in the modern world, we look at the way we've moved on from a command and control, hierarchical, very top down style of management and leadership. We're now in a more collaborative, transformational sort of style, where people want to be empowered. They're artisans, they're creators in many roles. Now, we want to empower people to succeed and we have to motivate them and manage them and lead them in different ways than we've ever done. And I think COVID brought this home to us, that none of us had the experience of COVID in any part of the business. Our leaders were just as scared as our colleagues. Exactly. They had no tools and how they reacted was, I think, quite incredible because they adapted very quickly. They came from a world where the standard message was, we can't do that, we have to do that now. And it was even agile by agile standards, wasn't it? Sylvie di Giusto: I think one of the mistakes we often make when we hire leaders in organisation is that we so much focus on those hard skills, so much on their past experiences, in terms of the titles they had, the responsibilities they had, and don't look enough into their soft skills and especially into their talents, because, as you say, it's soft skills. Still, there are ways to kind of train them. We have leadership training programmes or other soft skills programmes. What you can't train is actually a talent. A talent is something you are born with. When you go back into your childhood and you think of something you have always been somehow magically be good at, you just were born with that talent. Could be in the creative space, could be in the physical space, could be in the analytical area. Then for the rest of your life, you will do two things. First of all, you are always interested in learning more and more and more because it brings you joy, it fulfils you to apply that talent. You can never stop learning about it. Second, it drives you crazy. If other people can't do that, you think, It's so easy to me, why is it so hard to others? Then that's a very good signal. It could be one of your natural talents because it feels easy to you, because you were born with. And when we apply our talents at work, when we have that opportunity, we thrive. We are better employees, we are better leaders, we just contribute better to the organisational success because we have the ability to apply our natural talents and not just our hard skills, which nowadays are given hard skills in any industry are, and I hope I don't offend somebody easy to learn. I can go on YouTube. I can go on YouTube and watch videos about a specific hard skill and tomorrow I could possibly start to do it yourself, build a house if I want to, and I'm not a contractor at all. Right? So hard skills are not hard to acquire anymore. Soft skills, possibly you can educate and train them over the time of your career. But think about your natural talents. What is a natural talent you can bring to your organisation? Because if you can apply your natural talent, you will thrive, your team will thrive and your company will thrive. Yeah. And I think that's Joanne Lockwood: one of the key essences of belonging. You're using your strengths every day. You're not out of your comfort zone. Maybe you're in your stretch zone, but you're not in your panic zone, you're not complacent, you're not doing something that's too routine. You're right in that sweet spot of my strength is, and I think what you were saying there, it made me think that maybe that's the cause of some maybe my own impostor syndrome, because some of the things I do are quite innate, they're quite automatic, they're just the way I do things. And then people go, but you're so good at that. I go, I don't understand. I feel kind of an imposter, or I feel a bit embarrassed that you pointed that out. I don't think I've earned it and you're going to find me out. And I think maybe that's where the mismatch can occur in our limiting beliefs, our imposter syndrome, because we have an innate ability. Very good thought. Very good thought. I might Sylvie di Giusto: actually steal that a little bit and use it when I help people to understand how they should identify, first of all, their natural talents and make sure that they apply them at work and also find a connection, because very often when people identify their talents, they are actually not talents that they use at work. But everything is connected with everything. Right? If you are a very creative person, there will be opportunities for you to show that creativity in work might be in your PowerPoint presentations, might be in the way you organise team meetings, but make sure to focus on that talent because it will bring you joy and once again, help you thrive. Yeah. Is Joanne Lockwood: it a Japanese saying? Is it ikagi or ikigai or something? What it's not saying is that if you find your passion, find something that brings you joy. Find something you can make money out of. And when they all intersect, that's when you're self actuating. That's when you're in your position of most Power. And I think I look back at my career. So I spent 32 years in It, in computing. I ran my own business in It for 20 or 530 years. And people used to say to me, wow, you're brilliant at this. You've got a natural talent, or what you've just done is incredible. And I was at the end of it. I used to go, I don't see it. And then what I realised towards the end of that part of my career was that I didn't see that as something that I wanted to be recognised for. It was something that I was good at, something I had a flair for, but it wasn't something I was really proud of. It wasn't something that I went, oh, thank you. I want to be the best It person in the world. It's like, okay, all right, thank you. And I felt a bit embarrassed by it. But I think now I found a different passion in diversity, inclusion, in speaking, in training. So when people give me feedback in a positive way about that, I go, thank you. And it means something because I go because I want to be good at this, I want to be recognised for this. Whereas in the past I maybe didn't. And so what you're saying there is really, really resonating with me that finding that sweet spot of that passion and ability. Yes, it's where the magic happens. So we know that probably Sylvie di Giusto: the most important part of emotional intelligence is self awareness. And really do we take the time to think about ourselves and what makes us unique and stand out? Right? I have a book coming up called Discover Your Fair Advantage and it helps lead us to identify 15 unique selling points. Unique selling points? USP is a term that we very often use in marketing or sales to describe what is so unique about a product or a service that I'm going to buy it from you and not from your competitor. And I applied those principles to a human being, to a professional in the workplace. What is so unique about you as a professional that I should hire you, promote you, buy from you, buy into you? And some of those unique selling points are, for example, your values and beliefs. We both are keynote speakers, but probably apply very different values and beliefs to the way we make business. Your origin and your story. I mean, look at your amazing story that you went through. Do you apply that in your marketing, in your positioning, that people understand? It's such a unique story that helps you stand out your natural talents and gifts, your skills and competencies, your experiences and lessons learned, your accomplishments and achievements, or your passions and obsessions. Because we often think when we think of passions, passions are only allowed in our personal life. But no, absolutely not. If you have the opportunity to bring your passion to work, it again will fulfil you with joy and make you thrive. I even always encourage leaders to identify a fun fact about themselves and share it. Because after all, we are in a people business, right? We have to go beyond the transaction, the professional transaction between us. And in a people business, find something that is unique about you, a fun fact. You might have a collection of 4000 vinyl records, for example. Or you might have a unique hobby, or you might be one of 18 siblings or something fun unique about you that you can, for example, use as a conversation starter and where you have instantly a common ground that, yes, this is a people business and you make yourself likeable, approachable accessible by going beyond the business transaction. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that is so true. I learned very quickly in the business we're both in is that that frictionless, that easy to transact with you. Know they're going to ask this question. So you have that answer, you've got your finger poised on the send button. There it is, it's in the chat for you. There it is. I'll get that over to you next. And I think that's so important. And we can all have our ego and our diva and we can all have our sort of don't you know who I am? And these are my riders, we can all have that. But really it comes down to do I like you? Do I want to do business with you? I always start conversations with how would I like you to feel about me when we leave? So you talk about starting with the end in mind. When I have a conversation, what impression do I want to have left that person about me with and have I achieved that? Have I left a positive impression? My values, clever, intelligent, good speaker, knowledgeable, friendly, open all the kind of words we can use. Have I left you with that? I always think that's important, that I don't just bump into conversations, I set out with that in mind again. So when I'm trying to create that first impression I'm thinking about the last impression exactly, not just how it the end goal. I always tell people we know that the first Sylvie di Giusto: eleven words of every conversation are the most important ones. People are going to remember you for the first eleven words in average, of course, that you say. And so most people, at least in the United States, start conversations with how are you doing? There is nothing wrong with asking how are you doing? If you're actually really interested in how the other person is doing. But other than that you just wasted half of the eleven words, right? Preparation is key. Do you have a conversation starter that instantly pulls in the other person, that instantly shows the other person that you care, that you care about them, that you cared to prep, that you went, let's say, on their LinkedIn profile, find out something about them that just happened at work, something positive about their organisation. Maybe you have a common contact you could use, anything that helps people to instantly realise that you care. I have sourced around 24,000 people in the meantime in my audiences and every time I use that app and ask them what is the picture perfect first impression somebody else should make on you? Depending if they are, for example, a realtor or a financial manager or somebody from human resources or a speaker or an event planner. Different roles. 24,000 responses and the number one word across all, across all industries is care. Show me that you care. And by the way, it's one of my favourite words because it's actually very easy to imprint that in milliseconds without even doing something obviously near. It's more an unconscious process. The moment you take care of yourself first, people think you have the capability to take care of them too. I repeat that for you. If you don't take care of yourself first, people do not assume that you have the capability to take care of them too. So when I go back to your ABCDE, what was it, for example, about Joanne when I walked into that room and instantly realised that is a person who cares because she takes care of herself too? And I can see that. I can see that in your appearance. I noticed that in your behaviour, in your communication and so on. And some people think self care is selfish. No, it is not. Again, you are the most important person in your life and if you don't take care of yourself, others don't think that you have the capability to take care of them. Joanne Lockwood: And I know for a fact you walked the talk on that, because for the first time I saw you standing up at that event when you spoke on that was it Thursday morning? I could tell that you were pitch perfect in terms of your presentation, your message. You stood up to talk about first impressions and you lived that mantra from start to finish. And every time we met over the course of those four days, again, you were pitch perfect on every occasion you were on brand. And it wasn't fake or inauthentic, it was who you were. And you had that smile and that you were beaming and whatever you were wearing, it showed you off. I became a fangirl. Same Sylvie di Giusto: here. I'm glad we connected fangirls of each. Other, Joanne Lockwood: but I was drawn to look at your website, I've watched some of your show reels and when you go back, you talk about your apcde. You are connected from the A through to the E in terms of your brand, your message, the way you behave, your attitude, your compassion, your smile, your interest in people and your digital footprint reinforces that message. That's really, I think a power you have is to create that complete on messageness. It's not at all fake, it's not at all inauthentic. It is innate within you as part of who you are. Communicate that with people. It comes across as that is, you are truly a person that has this aligned. Thank you very much. Thank you. Sylvie di Giusto: It was hard work. It was years of focusing on, once again, self awareness. I needed to learn about myself, who I am and who am I not. And even if we all play some sort of role, especially in a professional world, how can I play the role that I am still okay with it, that it makes me happy, that it brings me joy? Right. And since you mentioned the ABCDE again in my audience, I let them at one point vote on what do you think? Which of those elements is the most important one? And actually, it's an unfair question because they all matter. There is no more important. One, you can't look good and behave horrible. It's going to be difficult if you're a great communicator with words, but your behaviour and your appearance doesn't align right, so it's all five of them. However, I always then switch the order for them and say, you need to start with your digital footprint. First, you want to be online. The same person as you are offline. But secondly, you don't know how much you miss out on opportunities, that you never meet people in a room because they somehow found something in the digital space, a version of your digital you that pushed them away. And you don't know about those opportunities. So start there. First. Joanne Lockwood: Do you ever find that people are scared of you? You're too polished, you're too impressive. Sylvie di Giusto: Yes. So maybe you can link that in your show notes or somewhere on your website. I have something called a free perception audit. You take ten minutes of your time to answer a series of questions and then you will find out what your primary or secondary perception DNA is. And so my primary is somebody called the Cosmopolitan, and my secondary is the dramatic one. There are seven different categories. You, Joanne, will probably find out that you are somebody called the avant garde and the caregiver. Let's give it a try. You test it afterwards and see if I'm right. So, just to describe, you one of those categories, my own, the Cosmopolitan. The Cosmopolitan has a keyword called quality. Everything in their life needs to scream quality. They are willing to invest into their clothing, into their education, into their house, into their cars. Because quality is important, they don't want to distract from them. If you look into their wardrobes, for example, everything is plain. There are rarely pattern. If there are pattern, they are probably geometric patterns, sharp patterns. Nothing is flowery, nothing is cute, there are no ruffles, nothing is nice about them. So the Cosmopolitan is very often perceived as sophisticated, as strong, as powerful. And every of these categories has a downside. So, unfortunately, the Cosmopolitan is also not perceived as a people person. They often scare people away because they are so polished, so clean, so sharp, that it takes people a while that they actually go beyond that philtre, that harsh philtre they have in front of them to find out we are nice people, we are really nice people, and to now close the circle. What I do is I know that my appearance comes off this way, so I put a lot of effort in my body language, in my facial expressions, in the way that I speak to people, to show them a little bit more of that I'm actually a nice human being and kind. You mentioned my smile. It's nothing that I trained, right? I'm not teaching myself how to smile, but I know it's important for me to smile, because if I would walk into a room and my facial expressions are like my outfits, then, oh, they would be really scared. I look very different when I work with coaching clients one on one, then you would find another version of me because I know it's a very personal situation. I need that warmth that you as a caregiver, for example, has. Does that mean I dress up and I'm somebody else? No, I just use and borrow elements of one of the other six categories that you can find out when you take that free online assessment. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you for saying that, because my first impression of you was someone who was a little bit aloof, maybe wouldn't want to speak to me, but I'm of the personality where I will speak to everybody and anybody and avoid those biases or judgments. I will speak to the people serving coffee because I have great conversations with everybody that way. I think when we first chatted, you were genuinely interested in me. That came across and that completely diffused any apprehension I had about talking to you. You were interested in me, I was interested in you. We had a great conversation. So I think what you're saying there is that, yes, you can have this persona that you project, but you have to remember that you have to let people into it. Otherwise you will end up being the person you don't want to be. And I asked the question because I get people who come up to me and say, oh, Joanne, sorry for taking your time. I really appreciate I've been following you for ages. I didn't think you'd ever have the time to speak to little old me. And I go, how do I create that impression? How do I make it sound like I'm scary and unapproachable? That's the opposite of who I am. Of course. Within the first few seconds of conversation, I'm warm, I'm open, I'm hugging, I'm beaming and interested in that person. And I think it's part of that ABCDE again, it's that self management, self awareness of who we are and making sure we're aligning with how we want to be perceived as well, isn't it? Absolutely. Sylvie di Giusto: And it's part of self awareness, but also understanding that, for example, my assumption is you being transgender, that some people feel uncomfortable. Uncomfortable not knowing how to address you. Right? Not knowing how to speak to you, not knowing so much about the things that you know so well. And then it makes them feel uncomfortable. I have this approach that first I surround myself consciously, very consciously, with people who can learn me, teach me those skills. So I have friends that I reach out and say, help me understand, because it's something I didn't go through, so how would I know, right? And very often, it's not just reading literature. You really need a human being telling you how to react and act in such a situation. And the best thing is always just to be humble and address it or ask, I would think that would be more comfortable for you than being confronted with somebody who feels uncomfortable because of you. Am I right? I Joanne Lockwood: completely and one of the biggest fears of getting it wrong and saying and doing the wrong thing, big barrier to inclusion. And I agree, if I can detect someone who's leaning away from me or nervous in my presence, I go my first reaction is what's wrong with me? Why are you scared of me? What have I done wrong in the education I do is getting people to overcome that fear. So part of that is we've already talked about the emotional intelligence. They're willing to listen, be self aware, self regulate, self managed, social awareness, all these kind of things. But the other side of that is the CQ, the cultural intelligence and you talked about it there is you've got the drive to find out more. You're actually interested in people, to find out more about people. So from drive you got knowledge. If you got that knowledge you can start to then to apply that and contextualise it and use that. If you're always afraid or you're not interested enough in people or difference or those challenges, you're never going to learn. And I think as you say there, cultural intelligence fits with the emotional intelligence, makes us better people people and we. Will always make mistakes. I will make mistakes, you will Sylvie di Giusto: make mistakes, others will make mistakes. But I think the most important part is to have the awareness that it possibly was a mistake that you just made and learn from it. And if you don't know yourself how to do better the next time, ask your friends. I recently was at an event and with my whole heart I said something out loud where then once the words were out, I thought, oh, did I just offend possibly the Afro American audience members by saying something that I even not meant this way? And I went back to one of my best friends, called him, described the situation, he taught me how to phrase it differently in the future so that there is not such a risk that I offend anyone because I always want to be respectful and I'm going to make mistakes. I'm making bad first impressions too, as we just heard, right? And you saw me the first time but it's all about being aware of it and trying to do the best you can. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think that's so true and I think what you're talking about there is the accountability. If I make a mistake, I have to own that mistake. I have to apologise, I have to learn, I have to move on because if I don't learn and I make the mistake again, that says that I don't care enough about you to get it right the second time. So again, that human connection is making sure that we take that personal responsibility to grow and learn and not push it back on somebody else. Exactly. So what have you got planned? Just looking at your bio again and I remember when you came on stage, you were introduced, you've got like an opening saying, haven't you? When people read it out about, they describes you. I am Austrian by Sylvie di Giusto: birth, French in my heart, Italian in my kitchen, German in my work ethic and American by choice. I think that's amazing because Joanne Lockwood: as you say, that sums up a lot of the dynamics of who you are, doesn't it? Yes, that also sums up the accent. Sylvie di Giusto: And if you don't mind talking about standing out and being visible and having a unique selling point, I share a quick personal story. Years ago, I have been invited to comment on a politician on a TV show. I didn't even know the politician, but the TV centre called and I said, of course I want to be in front of a camera. Right? And then I became a regular guest on that TV show. And when I watched the TV show in the evenings myself, oh my God, it was horrible. It was horrible to hear myself in front in between all those well spoken American political experts. They used so yummy, sophisticated words that I didn't even understand, but they sounded to me so incredible and so smart. And when I said something in between, it really made me feel uncomfortable. And a few months in, I was invited to the holiday party and the producer, the TV producer I was working with, he and I were sitting down and I shared it with him and I said how embarrassed I am and that I don't understand why they still invite me, basically. And he said to me something that changed forever. Forever my view on my uniqueness and my value. He said, Your accent is the reason why we invite you, because first, you sound like an international expert, which made me feel instantly better about myself. But second, you say things so simple that everybody in the audience understands you, while they don't understand what the other political experts say. So I had to learn the hard way that something that I thought is my weakness has actually become one of my superpowers. When I speak nowadays, I regularly notice that the prospects that reach out to me are looking for a somehow diverse speaker. And since two things here come together she's a woman and she has an accent, obviously some international background that is often when they make the cheque mark and say, yes, she is our next speaker. So even if you think that one of your weaknesses is holding you back, consider for a moment if it actually could be your superpower and if you could use it to your advantage. Love Joanne Lockwood: that. And sometimes we have to just accept that we're being tokenized. If I boxes, there's a paycheck. Thank you very much. If I don't, you're going to give it to somebody else, so why won't I take it? And I did a conference in Berlin, 2018. It was my first proper keynote. I got invited to speak in front of 700 people, mainly German speakers, with I mean, speaking English is not a problem in most parts of Germany, but there was a simultaneous translation of the earpieces and all the stuff at the back of the room. And I stood up in front of this audience and delivered a talk on the power of words. And honestly, it was the first proper keynote. I'd done well in that size of audience. I'd done little things, small stages. So my impostor syndrome was going mental. And I remember standing on stage and as I walked up, I just paused and I walked to the other end of the stage and I just paused and looked at the audience and I walked back. Then I delivered my opening line. And what happened was the audience hadn't appreciated that I was transgender because it wasn't part of my bio. It was just, here's Joanne, she's here to talk about it. Most of the audience were that big. It was quite tiny because it's a big stage and see me and someone came up to me afterwards and they said, wow, you had me captivated. Because in that opening sentence, your voice boomed out and it was so disconnected from your appearance that I was captivated by it. And that taught me that my voice is part of my brand as well. However much sometimes it frustrates me that it's a bit too deep, bit too resonant. It is a superpower that I am able to grab people's attention and people do tell me it's quite a smooth radio voice. It's easy to listen to. So I think, well, let's just own it. It's not the voice I've chosen, but it's mine and let's use it. Sylvie di Giusto: Absolutely. Use it to your advantage. Joanne Lockwood: Sylvie, it's been amazing. I mean, we've been talking almost an. Hour, Sylvie di Giusto: all the places that we went, right? I'm so fascinated. It has been such a great conversation with you. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so honoured to be your guest and so glad that we reconnected. And I hope this is not going to be the last conversation you and I have. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, for sure, you're going to be in the UK in October next year for the Professional Speaking Association UK and Ireland Conference summit in Birmingham. So we're definitely going to see each other there. And who knows, we may bump into each other somewhere in the world in the meantime. And if we do, that'd be amazing. Yes. How can people get hold of you? Your name isn't obvious from the pronunciation. So what's your website? What's your LinkedIn profile? How do you spell your name? Sylvie di Giusto: Well, everything goes along with my name, which is not an easy one. https://sylviedigiusto.com. But here's the trick. If you google first impressions or first impression and speaker and I don't show up on that list, then you probably don't have internet, so there are many ways to find me. I'm very active on Instagram, I'm very active on LinkedIn. Always reach out to me if you have any questions about first impressions or everything beyond Joanne's or Jo's. Friends are my friends and I would love to help you in any way. Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. And I've been on Sylvie's website and if you're looking for a great example of a speaker website, Sylvie's website is top notch and I'm actually in awe of it, thinking, well, I feel so inadequate by the side of it. But it's a great example. The show reels are there, all your programmes are there, your testimonials are there, and it is honour to have you on the show today. So thank you so much and I really do look forward to keeping in your circle as a business friend and networking and meeting up some other place as well. So thank you so much and a huge thank you also to you, the listeners, for tuning in, for getting this far. I really appreciate it. Please do subscribe and keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's bites. Please share with your colleagues and friends. Share the link, reshare the LinkedIn post. I have a number of other excited guests lined up that I'm sure you'd be equally inspired by over the next few weeks and months. And, of course, if you'd like to be a guest, I'd love to hear from you. And I'd also welcome any feedback and suggestions how we can improve. My email address is Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen co uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.