---
title: "Living on the Edge"
episode: 45
date: 2021-09-16
guest: "Andi Maratos"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/45-living-on-the-edge
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-045/audio.mp3
---

# Living on the Edge

Andi Maratos and host Joanne Lockwood explore what it means to live “on the edge” of the mainstream, and how that perspective can make it easier to see the world differently and create safer spaces for others. Andi reflects on growing up feeling like they didn’t quite fit, “playing the game” in the corporate world, and the cost of hiding parts of their intrinsic self. They discuss the shift that can happen when a workplace makes room for individuality, and how authenticity can unlock confidence, reduce the need for masking, and support life and career decisions. The conversation also looks outward: the role of allyship, the impact of public rhetoric on trans communities, and the difference between performative corporate Pride and meaningful action. Andi shares what organisations can do in practice, including reviewing policies such as transition-at-work guidance, resourcing internal networks, and backing inclusion with real investment. Andi also talks about taking on the CEO role at Chrysalis (Gender Identity Matters), rebuilding and growing the charity’s support offer, and inviting listeners to get involved through donations, fundraising, and volunteering.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Transitioning from conformity to self-discovery and clarity.
- 07:39 — Found acceptance at work despite initial fears.
- 11:49 — Appearance norms evolving, driven by subcultures' influence.
- 20:57 — Promotes positivity by sharing personal boundaries.
- 27:15 — Living uniquely, self-reliance; prove through actions.
- 28:39 — Stopped asking permission; found empowerment through change.
- 35:17 — Telling my mum was necessary for honesty.
- 41:59 — Self-development aids relationships and mental well-being.
- 45:26 — Strengthened vision, more allies, 200+ active members.
- 51:24 — We are all different; allyship is essential.
- 01:00:12 — M&S cake criticised for lack of inclusivity.
- 01:06:10 — Passionate supporter, contributor, and advocate for Chrysalis.

## Key takeaways

- Inclusive marketing strategies that transcend traditional gender and sexual diversity norms.
- The evolution of celebratory days to embrace diverse familial setups and identities.
- The role of Chrysalis in providing safe spaces for gender identity support and personal development.
- Navigating and overcoming external judgment and societal pressures to live more openly and authentically.
- The significance of agency and independence in respecting individual journey paths.
- Corporate inclusivity efforts, highlighting the need for genuine policy changes over superficial gestures.
- The impact of music subcultures and youth culture on today's acceptance of diverse self-expression.

## FAQs

### What does Andi Maratos think about Valentine's Day and its inclusivity?

Andi Maratos suggests that Valentine's Day, with its focus on romance and love, doesn't need to be tied to gender, allowing a wider range of people to participate.

### How has traditional celebration become more inclusive according to Joanne Lockwood?

Joanne Lockwood highlights the evolution of traditional celebrations by pointing to products like Father's Day cards from Moonpig that cater to diverse families, such as those with "two best daddies."

### Why is inclusive marketing important from the outset?

Both Joanne and Andi discuss that inclusive marketing spanning gender and sexual diversity from the beginning ensures that all individuals feel seen and validated by brands.

### What are some examples of inclusive choices in food?

The discussion includes examples such as the "vegan queer cake," which represents inclusive celebration options catering to different dietary and identity preferences.

### What is Chrysalis, and how can it be supported?

Chrysalis is a charity focused on gender identity support. It can be supported through social media, the Chrysalis website, Amazon Smile, and charitable platforms like Just Giving.

### How does the podcast suggest handling negative external opinions?

Joanne and Andi liken negative external opinions to "graffiti on the wall," suggesting that such opinions should not impact one's inner well-being.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. that's, S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 45 with the title Living on the Edge. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Andi Maratos. Andi is the CEO of Chrysalis, a charity supporting trans, non binary and questioning people together with their family and friends. When I asked Andi to describe their superpower, they said that they genuinely believe in people. Hello, Andi. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for

Andi Maratos: inviting me. It's great to be here. Yes. And

Joanne Lockwood: we're this is the day after with the latest announcement that, lockdown has been extended for yet another 4 weeks to the end of July now. Another another 4 weeks of talking to people on

Andi Maratos: Zoom, but I know. It's what it is. I

Joanne Lockwood: know. I did my first in person training gig yesterday, and it was really strange presenting to a a ring full of people socially distanced. Actual humans. Really, really hard. Yeah. Say again. Sorry? Actual humans in an actual

Andi Maratos: space. Actual humans, actual space. Yeah. The challenge was

Joanne Lockwood: there was too much space, and it was very difficult to have conversations and talk to each other, but there we are. But yeah. Jo, hopefully, 1 more month, and we'll be back to to normal. And we can talk about what we mean by normal in a minute, Shelley. Yes. So, Joanne, living on the edge. We talked about this just now. So what's living on the edge mean to you?

Andi Maratos: So I think I've never quite known the language, fitted in, whatever, see myself in the space of all of those people over there. And that flows through everything inside me. So that's the music. That's my growing up. Does it enable me to define my gender identity and my sexuality? Probably all of those things are are just edges, not quite in there. But for me, that's, it's a great space because on the edge, and I'm sure there's a Pratchett quote in here somewhere, but you can see things more clearly. Anybody who knows me knows that I love Pratchett. And inevitably, there's going to be some quotes that slip in here from, some of his stories. I think he's, although he's an author, I think he's a great philosopher. And being on the edge. So it makes me see things differently but it makes me that much more able and willing to reach out and, draw others closer to to make the edge a safe space in and of itself. That it's okay to be different. That being different is just as awesome as everything else. And maybe the the more you look at it, the more you explore the, the concept, the more you see that everybody's got a bit of edge inside them.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Interesting. I I mean, I I probably spent the majority of my life tucked in the middle in typically middle class, typically white, typically in a family unit, you know, the 2.4 nuclear family, typically on that wrap run of acquiring assets, being a good employee, doing as you're told, growing in the company. I spent a lot of my life in that in that center middle ground. And since you're what you say, I would say in the last 4 or 5, maybe 6 years, I've been edging closer to the outside of that. And when you say you can see things more clearly, I think you're so right. But then when you're in the middle of everything, there's so much going on, so much conformity. You don't have the chance to rethink about who you are, what you believe in. You you just get caught up in that group think and that way you do stuff. Jo, yeah, I can see that. So what have you learned from from your edge if you like?

Andi Maratos: I think, yeah, absolutely. Like you say that there is there's more space. You can see more, you can be yourself. So, I like you, I I started off trying to play the game, trying to fit in, did all the things that were expected of me like, you know, going to university, get into that career, get on the ladder. And then and and in that time and that space, I was hiding very much I was hiding who I was. And that's not I say, not necessarily my sexuality or my gender identity, that's my real intrinsic me. That's the me that makes me who I am, which is much more than that. That's the alternative me, the me that thinks differently, that sees things differently, that literally does not have anything else in the wardrobe that's not black. And I tried to conceal that. I tried to conform. I tried to pretend, and I tried to listen to the language and be like everyone else. And it just doesn't work. And eventually, I got made redundant kind of thing happens to everybody. Well, not everybody, but a lot of people go through that. It's a life changing moment. It's a time to reevaluate. And I found myself out of the corporate world and into the education world. And in there, I started to find a place of much more collaboration. Business manufacturing, it's all about competition. It's all about guarding your secrets. But in education, we were there to try and help each other grow and develop and nurture. And even though that's the job of the institution to do for the students, it also does for the staff and everyone connected. And so I started to grow and develop and to to reach out and start to feel who my real me was. And I went I said to my boss, would it be okay if I got stuff put in my hair? Because I'm going to an event, and it takes quite a while to get this stuff installed. And, it's I'm gonna have to be coming into work and sitting at my desk in front of you looking a bit weird for a while. For me to have that conversation with my boss, who's a former army officer, quite proper, was a massive thing. And he said, as long as it's not pink, I don't mind. And I thought, how little you know me? It would literally it it might be any other color, but it's never gonna be pink. But I think that it's just that absolute yeah absolutely you are welcome here as you. Was like oh, wow. I've kind of kind of found my space. And I haven't told this story for ages now, actually, but it still gets me because, yeah, he was a ex army, but he would we were in student accommodation and you needed someone who just totally got the people or individuals first and that you come to university to develop yourself and that he really valued that in his staff and his team as well. And I think that was the switch that flicked. That said you don't have to keep pretending. You don't have to understand that way of being Because actually what you've got is more than that. What you've got is different. What you've got is valuable. What you've got in yourself can create a world where it's okay to be you. The yeah. The being on the edge, living on the edge is valuable and creates change. And, yeah, from from there, maybe I stuck around in that job a little bit long. I was within the education sector for 15 years. I I came out there. But I think yeah. I came out as alternative. I started being visible as my whole authentic self. And from that, I gained confidence in in my authentic me, in my knowledge, in my brain, in my abilities to go forward, to go back into education, to learn more, and eventually to, take the risk, take the leap to take on chrysalis. That, yes, I really could do it. So yeah that was 2017, I took a risk, I believed in me and I believed in my individuality. And I believed it was strong enough that that belief could carry through and believe in all the other people involved. And with that belief, we could all become our authentic selves.

Joanne Lockwood: It's interesting what you said about coming out as alternative. I mean, III think back to so I'm I was born in the mid sixties. I So my kinda growing up formative kinda year with seventies, in those days, people used to align themselves more with music. So punk, you had rockers, you had, goths, you had Joanne of The Smiths. Jo people used to align themselves with with their identities around that. And, of course, we had the new romantics of the early early eighties, the Duran Duran, the Simon of Bonsolin. So people didn't really come out as alternative. They were part of a music crowd sort of thing. People were punk, people were rockers. Not in not in the corporate world.

Andi Maratos: Absolutely. No. Not in the corporate world. No. But but you can decide

Joanne Lockwood: to weekend. Precisely. Yeah.

Andi Maratos: But you I I've I've spoken with colleagues who, you know, they take all their piercings out for an interview. Guys who wouldn't even have like 1 piercing. Yeah. Certainly in the nineties, you you just wouldn't be seen as you. I think hair color, visible tattoos, and I think those changes that have been driven by those of us who for whom that is an intrinsic part of who we are, but we've gradually moved up in whatever fields. We've seen that, oh my goodness, a tattoo is not going to destroy somebody's ability to perform a function or to to do a job. So things have shifted, I guess I'm kinda kinda going sideways, but this is me. I think that the change that started with all those subcultures are certainly in in the UK with the musical subcultures. I do think that that has been part of what's progressed the wider, inclusion. I don't wanna use the word agenda. Change. You know, just that that greater acceptance, greater understanding of all kinds of diversity and that and I suppose because music is something that you control, that level of self agency that is just an aspect of who you are. And if you wanna grow your hair or if you want to have a tattoo, then it doesn't change who you are. But I still think we're a very long way from that being acceptable at senior level. I think there are small pockets. I think it is coming up. But I was on a call earlier watching lots of, executives talk about how, they're fantastic allies, to the LGBT community from their, you know, senior positions. And they all looked incredibly conformist. In that every single person using he, him pronouns was wearing a shirt, and so on and and so forth. And so I think we're still a long way away from relaxing completely and meeting people on that actual genuine level Jo that then they can become that best person. We still got all the assumptions and the the covering, the need to perform in a particular way.

Joanne Lockwood: We've come out of the weekend shadows into the mainstream over the last 10 or so years. As you say, we were in the seventies and eighties, we were kind of weekend punks. We were And it's huge culture as well

Andi Maratos: Yeah. I think. And that certainly, you know, shifted. You know, we've we've grown up. That doesn't mean that there's not young people in all of the scenes, but, yes, it has certainly become much more. But it it took the rock and

Joanne Lockwood: roll era and the sixties era to start establishing youth culture to none. I guess in the seventies, there weren't enough people old enough to be not youth culture. People were still in their mid thirties, late thirties. Jo now that we've got people who have come through that era Mhmm. Of that freedom, that youth culture to understand that we're taking that I'm taking that into my fifties and sixties now. Yeah. Whereas my my parents, they were brought up in an era that that forgotten generation, that wartime yeah. They were born on the cusp of of the outbreak of war. So they didn't already have that freedom in their teenage years to express. And maybe, as I say, maybe the the rock and roll is where the first teenage culture came from, isn't it?

Andi Maratos: But yeah. I agree. But I think that there's maybe, an over, focus on very small groups. So people talk about the hippies. There were not that many hippies. If there were, we'd be living in a very different world right now than the 1 we're in. And and the same with with the, the subcultures, the the culture of normality, the culture of, as you said, that, go on down the 2.4a half a dog path, do not question, do not assume. Oh my goodness. There's definitely no way that we're ever gonna tell anybody that we're gay. Space that was was prevalent all the certainly all the way through the eighties. Oh, HIV. Yeah. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: The the original partial partial to criminalization of homosexuality in 1967. And as soon as that that freedom was it was allowed, then the HIV AIDS epidemic took over, which kind of put a kibosh on that freedom of expression that people then had. And section 28, I mean, all those other things going on, you know, promoting promotion of gay education in schools. So that all that kind of restifled that and it's now only that we've got past over that that constraint, if you like, we're now able to start restart expressing ourselves. You

Andi Maratos: say we've got past it? Well, it

Joanne Lockwood: from a sexuality, maybe, potentially, point of view, but we still see it in Hungary. We see it in Poland at the moment. We see it in many territories in the world. But and even in much of America, even though the UK is not perfect, it's it's a lot more liberal, a lot more tolerant and accepting of of varying identities than many places in the world. You know, I'm not saying we should be count as lucky or anything because there are still areas where there's a lot to work to do, but we do have it relatively easier in terms of identity and expression than many other countries in the world at the moment.

Andi Maratos: But I do wonder whether we talk ourselves interfering that it's not so so great. Yeah. I

Joanne Lockwood: mean, Twitter, some of the Sunday royalties and tabloids, the constant barrage of of hate that goes on around certain communities, the the polarization of the media, stirring up discord where it doesn't need to doesn't need to be there, creating this big debate around taking the knee black lives matter, put this hope but pitching pitching people against each other all the time, trying to create this this debate in the media. Yeah. Debate. Yeah. Telling people they have to have a side, whereas before people could form their own minds, but now they've been given a side because their their culture, their background, their tribe, whatever it may be. And and that that's you have to have a

Andi Maratos: side. You can't have an opinion or a thought or a feeling or an experience. That is not nuanced. It has to be a side. And if you have to have a side, then we have to define it. And, actually, we're talking about edges. There there there is no no other side, is there? You know?

Joanne Lockwood: I mean, without I'm not gonna express my view on taking the knee, but what what 1 view I do have, which is a core belief of mine, it matters to some people, therefore it matters to me, it matters to them. So whatever I my feelings on it are, and they're not negative, the overriding thing for me is it's not my it's not my cause. It's not my thing I wanna do, but if it matters to you, I support you in what you do. And a lot of people don't see that as a conclusion of their thought process. They wanna debate whether it's right or wrong. I don't care if it's right or wrong. I care that you care. Yeah. And that's that,

Andi Maratos: when coming back to talking about the superpower of belief in people that believing that you, you Jo, are important. Your belief structure is important. The actions you take, the reality that you described to me is absolutely true and valid and important. Listening is is where it comes down to, isn't it? But that's the that's the power that that really delivers positive change. If I ignore all of those things and you tell me what's important to to you and I still ignore you, then we're not gonna get anywhere. Yeah. And

Joanne Lockwood: whenever I talk to people, whenever I train, whenever I consult with people, I always come from the view that as human beings, we don't get up and set off the day to be nasty or have bad intent. And all I say is to people is this is what makes me happy and this is what makes me sad. And I know generally, you just wanna make people happy. So these are the things that make me happy. And if we can stick to those, I'm fine. We're fine. And maybe it's because I've got a clear understanding of what does make me sad and what makes me unhappy because of my identity, because of some of the, the struggles I've had in the last few years. Maybe other people don't realize through their privilege or their lens

Andi Maratos: that they actually got privileged. In the middle. Yeah. Again, thinking about taking it taking yourself out and having a look at yourself. And and what does that mean? That that being being an alternative for me, that that's, a subcultural thing, but it's being alternative to the mainstream in in whatever way, isn't it? And doing that work. Whereas if you're comfortable in the middle, if you've never felt that tension, if you've never, if everything you've tried has worked okay, then that's alright. And you don't you haven't done that work. You haven't thought about who you are. So you don't really know what makes you happy because you've never really bumped up against the things that don't make you happy. And in counseling, so I'm a person centered therapist. And our second principle for for therapy is that the client needs to be in a state of incongruence. You need to have realized that something's not right. You need to have experienced something out of alignment in order to go and want to actively change it.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think when you know, going back to what you're saying about this space on the edge, in the center, it's very densely packed, isn't it? It's suffocating. There's no room to stretch. There's no room to sort of enhance and develop. I think you're so right. On the on the edge, there is more grass. There is more free space. We're living instead of living in the center of the city, we're living in the country, we're living on the beach, and I've got my own space. And I I love the way that we we have an identity now of questioning. I think questioning is brilliant. That's me cross legged in a grassy field somewhere just trying to figure out who I am, what life's about, what my direction is without having noise in my head all the time. So you must do this, get on the conveyor belt, get off at the next exit, drive and drive. And I think questioning was a was a fantastic place for me to be where I just figured stuff out without that pressure, but you need to go out of the center. And it's safe in the

Andi Maratos: middle. It's Jo safe in the middle. You if you don't challenge things, then you're not risking much. And I guess we're all capable of achieving intellectually whatever we achieve. And with people take risks in business or whatever. But if you're in the middle, you can do all of those things and look like you're progressing, but you're not taking risks with your core being. You're not going, what if? Yeah. You're not taking that walk down the street when you absolutely know that you're gonna get something shouted at you. Because you don't need to. I had a thought. Where did my thought go, Jo?

Joanne Lockwood: Well, people shouting at you. People shouting at you. And that's that's just 1

Andi Maratos: 1 example. But it is about stepping outside your comfort zone. And they're they're cliches that turn to people like, oh, god. I don't wanna do that. But actually, it's amazing. It's amazing being different because you can do so much more. You can you can take a charity and go, no, it's gonna be like this. And and it is. And we've gone stratospheric, really, with the the support that we're offering. If you're if you're different, you can go, oh, heck. Lockdown. Better do something. Turn on a 6 months because you're used to not following those those worn parts of thought because you know, I know that they don't work for me. If if everybody else is doing it, I am not the person to try to persuade to do it because I'll be looking for why. What can we improve? Always. Always. Well, if that's what everybody's doing, surely there's something better. You think when

Joanne Lockwood: you're in the middle sometimes that you you're seeking validation from your peers, checking that it's the right thing to do all the time. Oh, maybe maybe you're nearer the edge or nearer that questioning place. You You're so used to making decisions that are life changing affecting and realizing those decisions whilst they have consequences, they're not the enormous fear that you thought they would be.

Andi Maratos: I'd hate to generalize, actually, because I can think of a lot of people for whom living on the edge is constantly anxiety inducing. Mhmm. I think about all the the brackets of diversity and, all the covering that people have to do, all of the extra lifting that you have to do, you know, whether it's visible, whether it's not, whether you come out, etcetera, etcetera. Again, go back to the, being shouted out on the street. But from a personal perspective, I don't know what the middle ever felt like because it was never I was never in it. Jo, yes, I'm used to not getting that affirmation and making risks and just kind of relying on myself. If it feels right, do it. Because nobody's going to properly get what you're doing anyway until they do, until you prove so for me, it's proving myself by my actions. I said I could do it. I did it.

Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. I've certainly I think I've probably just proven it to

Andi Maratos: myself, but don't think anybody else cares. I I certainly

Joanne Lockwood: Joanne I I've stopped asking permission. And I remember distinctly feeling I needed to ask permission for things around by identity reevaluation, my career. I have business partners. I had bosses. So I was always feeling that I I couldn't be empowered, but I suppose I suppose it's pretty hard for me to to be specific about where this change occurred. 1 is, yeah, I I obviously reengineered my entire being in terms of career and gender identity at the same time. So it's difficult to work out whether I found empowerment through change of career and and passion and purpose or whether that there was an alignment of self. How which 1 was the most crucial into finding myself, whether it was my gender identity or was it the alignment of passion and purpose. And I still look back on that and think, could I have done 1 without the other? I'll never know. There's no control group. I can't ever check that. But I do wonder sometimes was were they both necessary to find myself here? I think authenticity

Andi Maratos: frees up who you are. So if you're looking at 1 aspect of yourself, it's really, really hard to only develop your left arm when you're doing weight training. You kind of have to do the whole thing. And somebody else said to, you know, it's self development is it's never ending. You there's always more you can do. Again, to go back to Rogers, you know, we'll never reach the 7th stage, we'll never reach Nirvana and pure enlightenment because there's always something new to discover.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You're so right. So my fear sometimes is I'm actually getting sucked back in the middle. I'm I'm kinda comfortable in who I am, comfortable in what I do. I have a brand. I have a what I I have a stuff that I get on with. So I'm actually drifting back into into the middle again, not feeling so edgy. Maybe maybe my identity isn't edgy. Your

Andi Maratos: knowledge of both what it feels like to be on the edge and your greater understanding of edge people. Mhmm. So in your place in the middle, you are then an ally to everyone who needs you and your power, your knowledge, your experience to make a better space.

Joanne Lockwood: Well, don't get me wrong. Speak the language that we don't. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. I'm not looking to go right back into the hustle and bustle of the middle. I wanna find a little oasis with a nice bit of grass, a palm tree, a little bit of water there where I'm close enough to the middle, but I still have that that edge space, if you like. So I never wanna lose that feeling of freedom. I don't wanna feel like I have to comply to other people's expectations. And when you talk about being shouted at walking down the street, I wanna get to a point where I just go, yep. Okay. Fine. Whatever. Yeah. You see, that's not good enough. I want a place where there is

Andi Maratos: no churching at in the street. But being comfortable in my

Joanne Lockwood: own skin Yes. Enough that I don't have to I don't have any internalized anger or fear or at that person. I can just go I can just see them as misguided. I can just see them as that's that's your opinion. It's it's not fact. Then it doesn't hurt? Doesn't hurt. It's it it's just as I describe it, it's graffiti on the wall. It's just something I drive by and read. It's not me. It's just them. And that's not about

Andi Maratos: putting armor on to, defend yourself against the strikes. It is about just, yeah, them just glancing off. They're not they just don't hurt, they don't enter into your world. I guess what you were just saying about how when you're in the middle, you don't think about the outside. And it's the same thing. You know? They're so irrelevant to your experiencing that you can just put them away as, oh, well, that's that that individual. Okay. That's it. I don't need to think about it. Is

Joanne Lockwood: that Yeah. Completely. I Joanne back 4 or 5 years, I was I had learned to love myself. I think it was probably the key thing. I hadn't learned to believe in myself. I hadn't learned to value myself. And I think that was part of what gave me inspirations to find that who I was, that 1 that 1 self. And it became Asking

Andi Maratos: permission from the world to be you? Yeah. That kind of

Joanne Lockwood: stuff. Yeah. Feeling like I had to apologize. You internalize so much of it because you see it in the media, you see it in the press, you see it all over the place saying being you is wrong. And therefore, you internalize that I'm wrong. And when you when you let go of that and say, well, actually, I I'm okay. I'm cool. I'm right. I'm happy with being me. Actually, what you think is not relevant in terms of how it makes me feel. And that's quite quite a wake up call 1 day. And it's I can't remember exactly when it happened, but I remember thinking, wow, it feels so quiet now. I haven't I don't have that thought. And the other thing I found was having not having a lie. You know, I'd lived my life with so many secrets inside my head, so many things I couldn't talk about. I think once you shared the biggest secret in your head, everything else is just a walk in the park and I don't feel that I have to cover, hide, mask. If I've made a mistake, if I've don't say I'm not proud of or whatever it may be or I'm scared of something, I I feel empowered to say it and let it out because I know that holding it in doesn't serve any purpose. So it's, yeah, having no sequence is a is a really powerful place to be where I'm not saying I'm an open book by any means, but I don't have anything inside me that is I I I'd be fearful of telling anybody. Yeah. There's a difference between

Andi Maratos: exposing yourself and everything about you to the world and not lying to yourself. So yeah. But you say, you make a mistake. Okay. People do. But, actually, also, I'm really proud of what I did and celebrating that. Yeah. I I remember telling my

Joanne Lockwood: mom about me, whenever it was, 4 or 5 years ago. And I always said to myself, unless I could tell my mom I wasn't honest with the world, it was part of me saying, I've told my mom, therefore I'm not lying to anybody. But as I was keeping a secret from someone who I care deeply about, whose whose views and thoughts mattered to me, Knowing I was keeping something from her meant I was I wasn't honest with everybody else. So, yeah, it was extremely powerful for me to to make sure I I shared all that information. Maybe selfishly at the time, maybe I didn't think enough about how my mom would feel about it, but I was more worried about my feelings. But, no, with hindsight, it was necessary for both of us to move on. Yeah. And and

Andi Maratos: as children, we don't have control over what our parents think. No. We don't. But we will never ever stop wanting their love and approval. And I guess thinking about what you've just said then, You're not always going to get it, But I think it's worth the risk of trying.

Joanne Lockwood: I I think I I this is 1 of these quotes. It's everything whoever wanted is on the other side of fear. I can't remember who said it now, but that's really powerful. And how often does that fear of judgment, fear of rejection, fear, whatever it may be, stop you achieving what you want to achieve? And it's overcoming that fear that's in your head often, isn't it? Yeah. And when you're so scared, of course, things

Andi Maratos: go blaa out rather Joanne, in that that measured space that you can then allow some of their responses in and maybe move forward because it you just threw it and ran away.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Definite no. Definitely. It it yeah. I I guess I suppose I'm lucky that I've been through that process personally, found myself the other side. So it was very tormenturous. I was often describe it as the Bermuda Triangle, that vortex where there was you had to find an exit either the way you came in, the way you wanna get out, or just another path. But you you can't hang around in that confusion zone. For too long. Otherwise

Andi Maratos: It'll rip your path. You'll get sucked into which your part yeah. Get sucked into

Joanne Lockwood: it. Yeah. But I think that

Andi Maratos: you don't very rarely does anyone come out on the path that they thought they were going to be on when they went in. The the there will be some that it it change the it changes you come out somewhere slightly different.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. But that that's exactly what I said earlier about the questioning area, isn't it? Hopefully, you Joanne find a calmness in that vortex to actually have that time to think, what? Now I'm here. What I've got all the options open to me. Now where do I wanna be? And not feel you've got this predetermined exit Joanne. The exit of other people's expectations are often are often your own desires. We feel that we've got to do something for somebody else. And that's that's a struggle as well. I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't consider other people's feelings completely. We must must factor them in. But but when they have agency over you, it can become, again, you're living someone else's life, not your own again.

Andi Maratos: Yeah. Checking and consulting, but being your own agent. Mhmm. Yeah. I think

Joanne Lockwood: also I recognize that other people had their own freedom of expression, their own freedom of choice, their own needs. So just because I was shifting myself to the edge, the other people around me had their right to not come with me, to stay in their comfort zone, to be who they wanted to be. And I very quickly realized that was part of the journey that we had I had to allow everybody around around me to pick their own path Yeah. And not say, I'm over here. You have to come with me. Because, no, people would push back and go, I don't wanna come with you. And I go, oh, okay. That's fine. Yeah. And

Andi Maratos: that's that journey of self enlightenment, whatever it looks like, whatever path you take it is and it's always going to be your people will join you, People will share it. But they will always relate to the user they relate to. Jo if they like that you, then they're gonna carry on relating to you. But if they don't, they might drift off, on their own path. So when I was doing my counseling training, you know, they said, oh, this will change. It's like, no. Of course it works. What what? Never going to change any of us. We're all perfectly formed individuals, you know, we're well developed. But actually, no, it does. And you see more clearly, you see what is real love, real affection, real respect. And you've come to value those feelings from people much more clearly, but you value it on their terms. I think that's rather than trying to butt 2 realities together. Is that making sense? I

Joanne Lockwood: get that. Yeah. Because I think when as you say, when you try and butt 2 realities together, you're not solving any problem. You're not talking. You're not opening up the dialogue. You're butting. You're you're you're clashing. You're trying to force 2 cultures together rather than unpick the best bits from both. And I guess following that

Andi Maratos: through, if you develop yourself, you never lose because you've you don't fall apart horrifically. You can rebuild relationships. You can take aspects that that are the right and healthy parts of those relationships rather than just throwing it all away and and it all breaking down. And I mean, I guess that's specifically talking about, LGBT plus coming out experience, but I think it's it's a truism for for much more about mental well-being and about authenticity. Yeah. That just if you believe that people are amazing, if you believe that they are in if you believe in people, you can believe everyone is acting on their best best motives even if you don't necessarily meet in a place of agreement. And it all comes around, and it's like, well, it's all been written about before, isn't it? But we all we discover it for ourselves. We discover that truth, and everyone will discover their own version of that truth.

Joanne Lockwood: But tell me a bit about Chrysalis. So you took over as CEO 4 and a bit years ago, was it? Around about that? Yeah. End of 2017. So however many years ago that I'm not

Andi Maratos: sure. I think we've we've lost like 15 months, haven't we? Did somebody just just like Thielman? Yeah. 4 years give or take with a bit of a COVID lockdown

Joanne Lockwood: in the middle. You you inherited a the the reins of an organization that was not dynamic and not going as achieving what it could. So what what inspired you to take over, and what have you kind of what have you imagineered, if you like, in that process? I think

Andi Maratos: because I knew what the organization could do. Just because it wasn't doing, it didn't mean it couldn't do it. And by that, I'm I'm talking about, you know, that that vision of really creating safe spaces for everybody who needs the support because in doing that, you create places for people to develop themselves and then you gradually make the world a better place. And that mission of Chrysalis is is core to to my belief, my mission. And so I knew it was possible. And when you're kind of on the edge of something, you can see what's going well, but you can see maybe what you would change. I said, you know, even if something's brilliant, there's always gotta be something that you can improve. And so that was the opportunity to Jo, right, well, these things are great. This is what needs strengthening, but actually, where else do we need things? And getting out there and communicating the vision, communicating my vision, around the area, meeting with people like yourself and others who were like, yeah, we want to be allies. And and I guess just just gathering you all up in the wake of, like, this is really exciting. This is really possible. And I took you all on that journey and you all had faith in me that we would come out and we have. We've come out with bigger, we're stronger, we've got over 200 active members. Now I think, you know, we we were around 50 back then. We've got solid data sets. We've taken all of that knowledge, all of that learning, all of that passion from within and from all our allies and formed it into something that says, no. We're we're really we're going somewhere. Yeah. I've seen the

Joanne Lockwood: change completely. I mean, I knew Christus a little bit before I met you in that pub in Southampton 1 night, the London. I think that's where we first met. Yes. Yeah. And I've seen an organization that was in the shadows, almost like lurking on the edge, right on the other edge in the dark shadows.

Andi Maratos: Yeah. The coming in shameful shadows. Yeah. The shameful shadows coming

Joanne Lockwood: into this into the public view, building relationships with organizations, the public sector, with private sector clients, being proud of not only your own identity as a CEO, but also proud of promoting other people's identities. I think that's been a real shift, not just because it's also in society where people are are feeling less ashamed, less ashamed of who they are. And I think Christmas is certainly riding that wave and bringing people with the organization to to to be prouder of who they are, not feel that they're they should hide. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. That that

Andi Maratos: taking that that drive to to be authentic and and and take it inwards and and putting it outwards. Jo I think maybe to Jo back to our analogy about edges, Chrysalis was was trying to exist in the middle and didn't see the power of getting outside of that and just go, no. Difference is awesome. Difference is amazing. Let's not try and conform. Let's value every aspect of every single person who comes to us as a volunteer, as a supporter, as a sponsor, as a as a member, and value and celebrate every aspect of each individual's diversity and difference.

Joanne Lockwood: And you've opened up new income streams, you've gone from a charity that was I'm not saying destitute, but certainly hand to mouth, week to week. We had 6 months left to

Andi Maratos: live. And yeah. So so the first the first task I had was to fund my salary. So, it's only grateful to tutor trust the trustees there who it's what they do, that they take dreams, and they trust and they show faith and they believe, and they showed faith in me, they showed faith in my dream. And that was enough to then be able to go to to the National Lottery, who really believed in us. And and both of them have been amazing funders. And we're still small. I think 1 of the great things about being small is if somebody donate to Fiverr, if somebody does a 100 pound fundraiser on Twitch, that makes a real difference. It's you're never just chucking money. It's we're really light. We're really agile. We're massively, to quote the trustees, punching above our weight because we know what we do is absolutely the best. We took what there was. We made it better, and we're not going to stop keeping on with that improvement. There's a lot of people out there who've been hurt through denial, either themselves or through others, through discrimination, through hatred, and abuse. And they're gonna need our support. But, also, I think even if even if being trans has never caused you any challenges, I think you can still come and and share parts of of what we're doing. Come and celebrate. Come and help other people find authenticity. It's, yeah, not Yeah. Just get involved. Like I said to you earlier, everyone is can be an ally to everyone else. You just need to reach out different. At the end of the

Joanne Lockwood: day, we are we're all different. Yeah. So I'm I'm binary or non binary, queer. I still see myself as as queer as well. So we all have our own sense of self, so we're we each need our own allyship. And, I mean, the world isn't a dangerous place at the moment, but there's a lot of stuff out there, isn't it? Right now, you look at the media, Twitter, it's if you immerse yourself into that anti trans rhetoric, it's it's quite a quite a strain on on your mental health. I mean, I'm I'm a fairly resilient person, and I get worn down and tired by yet another attack, yet another article by these supposed charities and well, if you like, with a with doctor and professor and their titles quoting their their flavor of gender ideology, if you like. I think

Andi Maratos: none of none of that is lived experience. It's exactly what we said. It's take a look inside and don't be scared. When, when I do our training, you know, so celebrate your gender identity. Everybody should be proud to be themselves, be proudly cisgender, be proudly white, be proudly of this heritage or that heritage. It's who you are. Yeah. Every every cis person who introduces themselves as a cis person because they're proud of it is someone who's just got that little bit of extra self awareness. Doesn't mean you have to, Yeah. And, and I think that has actually changed in my mind, that's changed over the last few years. So when I started, doing this, I talk about pronouns and people would look at you blankly, and we'd have to go through the English explanation of what pronouns are. And now pronouns are everywhere. And they might even make them onto Facebook 1 of these days officially. And, Jo I so I trapped myself there. And the same with the term cisgender because when a label is given to people, it hurts. It's itchy. It doesn't fit. Trans as a label, so any transgender and all the older words, they're itchy. They don't fit. They don't adequately describe. Also, they will be used as terms to harm, terms to hurt. But when people own the label and affirm the label, then it kind of rubs some of those edges off. So it fits a bit better for other people who want to try it on and to say, well, okay, it's a bit more roomy in here. It's not that marginalised box that I thought it was. And I'm okay in this space. Or, nah. I tried it on and it didn't fit. And why should you not try on the cisgender label and determine it doesn't fit? It's just the same as trying on the trans label and determine it doesn't fit.

Joanne Lockwood: For sure. And, yeah, we've all tried on various labels and decide that's uncomfortable or I'm in the wrong room or I tried the right handed label and I know I'm left handed and or slightly ambidextrous. So, yeah, I know Well, I just don't like labels, and I'm

Andi Maratos: not trying any of your labels on. I am just me. And don't ask me my pronouns because, quite frankly, that's none of your business. There's another 1.

Joanne Lockwood: Just just call me Jo. Just call me Andi. That's the other way I'm looking at it. Jo we're right in the middle of 5 months, that's central 5 month. There's a lot of lot of logo changing going on. Are you are you seeing a lot of real action, real change going on the work you do, or we're just seeing a lot of transwashing and pinkwashing going on?

Andi Maratos: I think the people you really need to ask that of are the people in those corporations, the actual staff. I get lots of inquiries and they're lovely inquiries about how we can make our service more trans inclusive. Can we talk to some trans people about why they don't find our service trans inclusive? And I said, well, absolutely, I can work with you. We consult with you on this. We can have 3 hour training sessions. We can properly give you the experience of what it is to be gender diverse, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. These are all things that you will need to put your hand in your pocket to get because we're a tiny charity and we need your money. But I will give you for free. Have you written your transition at work policy? Because if you haven't, why do you think nobody's coming to you? If you've got any support for the trans people in your organisation. I know we've got to wait another year for the results of the census, but that's, I'm really looking forward to those stats.

Joanne Lockwood: I agree. Those stats will give the necessary evidence to ensure that the support is given.

Andi Maratos: Yeah. Respect as well. So respect, acceptance, just, that it's a reality. We in the UK, we've got an opportunity there. We're literally the 1st country to ever actually do that. The opportunity to take our place back at the top of the countries that are great to be LGBT plus rather than slip in further and further down because we've got this weird idea that that there is there's an argument about somebody's reality. There is no no argument of I am me. Yeah. I think conflict to someone else's identity versus another

Joanne Lockwood: person's, like, there is no clash. There is no No. There is there is no conflict in that. Being trans, being queer, being LGBTQ

Andi Maratos: plus, it's an aspect of human diversity. And that's as simple as that. I I do, I just wanna say I use the term queer with the caveat that I fully respect that for some people that is not a word that they feel comfortable with. They certainly don't feel comfortable with using, and I'm not using it for anyone, for whom that would feel uncomfortable. For me, it's the word that adequately describes that none of those other labels are quite me. But to go back to thinking about corporate pride and, you know, pink washing, trans washing, or whatever. Put your money where your mouth is. Support your your lgbt networks. Yeah. If your group wants a float at Brighton Pride, then put some money behind giving them a float at Brighton Pride. But make sure you've reviewed your policies at the same time. Chat about all the things that you do. You know, pride 365. And if you can show that you're doing that, then fantastic. But for goodness sake, don't stick up a rainbow in your pub window, when you're on the outskirts of the pride square and do absolutely nothing to challenge the homophobic and transphobic behavior of your punters.

Joanne Lockwood: Amen. Completely agree for sure. Well, I can't believe we've hit an hour already. We've been yacking away. We didn't get to talk about some of the other things we we were we were thinking about beyond gender diversity.

Andi Maratos: We we knew it was going to go in a different direction. Yeah. We knew we knew it wasn't gonna be what we planned. We'll come back to that another

Joanne Lockwood: day because I I've read a blog article back at Valentine's Day about the M and S Colin and Connie love nest cake you could buy as a gift. And my my blog along the been long lines of MNS did a a really great job with their LGBT sandwich. They put guacamole in it, created this rainbow sandwich. But on Valentine's Day, they they created this binary cis het cake for people. And I 365. Why don't we have a Colin and Colin option, a Connie and Connie or Connie, Connie, and Colin or Colin, Colin, and a Connie Jo that you could mix and match your own cake. Maybe that they were gender neutral, not using such gendered names as well Jo that you could name your cake, name your characters, and you could then be more queer inclusive or or gender diversity and sexual diversity inclusive. I think

Andi Maratos: just, yeah, move away from gender being the default categorization. For goodness sake, it's, like, literally 5% of who we are. Mhmm. I I do respect that some

Joanne Lockwood: people find it cute. Some people find that part of their identity, but provide options where for people where it doesn't fit their identity or they want to explore a different side of their personality.

Andi Maratos: Yeah. No. No. III see what you're saying. But if if the concept of Valentine's Day is romance and love, then gender hasn't necessarily got everything to do with that. That's 2 people meeting.

Joanne Lockwood: Or 3 or 4 or 10. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It

Andi Maratos: could be whatever. Try it to nint listen. Yeah. We can evolve those

Joanne Lockwood: stereotypical days celebrations. And I'm not saying we should lose the feeling of Mother's Day or Father's Day for people who aren't who don't identify in that way. And I was looking on Moonpig and I saw some some Father's Day cards to my 2 best daddies, and I thought that was fantastic. There's some really great diverse thinking going on in the Moon Pick card range. But

Andi Maratos: I found Thoughtful have got some very good, more diverse cards as well. So, yeah, other other card provider dictates. Yeah. You have you have to dig for LG Plus, don't you? And maybe what you said about, corporate prime, every time somebody does something, it's a little bit more inclusive.

Joanne Lockwood: What we need to be doing is having it right at the beginning in the marketing, the design, the the ideation stage. Someone always says, how can we make AAA queer or a gender diverse or a sexually diverse inclusive version of this product to make sure it's inclusive for all people?

Andi Maratos: Yeah. Yeah. Go back to core principles. What is the purpose of this particular thing, and how can we make sure everybody can have a a slice of cake? Yeah. I think we've gone beyond

Joanne Lockwood: being worried about upsetting people. I think I'd like to think most of the most most people in in in this country are now no longer afraid of upsetting people by having a a gay cake or whatever it may be, affecting their brand. So I'd like to think we've moved past that, in which case that's our challenge, isn't it, to to corporate UK?

Andi Maratos: We all want cake. Everybody wants cake.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And we don't necessarily want straight cake or cis cake. We want all cake, all identities, and we wanna feel part of it. We wanna be included in the same way. Please have vegan cake as well. Vegan vegan queer cake. Yeah. That's what we want Without a rainbow all over it, just just nice cake. It could be a a really nice Victoria's bun or a carrot cake or something. Just something something really yummy. Yeah. Thank you. On that note on that note, so how can people listening support Chrysalis? What's what's the best way to get in touch with you? So

Andi Maratos: we are at Chrysalis gim on all of the social media. So that is Chrysalis, spelled chrysalisgim for gender identity matters. Or you can go on the website, www.chrysalisgim.org.uk. If you haven't had enough of me, I do blog weekly on the CEO blog there. So you can always check out what I'm thinking, and you can drop us a message through Facebook, through Twitter, through the website as well. And I

Joanne Lockwood: have personal experience knowing that you can use Amazon Smile and choose Chrysalis as the beneficiary of your charity donation from Amazon. Yeah. I also know that on Facebook, when it's your birthday, you could nominate a charity and you can also nominate Chrysalis within that. And Just Giving, you'll set up on there as well. And

Andi Maratos: many other ways I think you can find us on Just Giving. And, if you go to, charitable.travel when you're booking your hollibobs, you can select Chrysalis as your charity there, and we will get 5% of the cost of your holiday. So if you're planning something maybe for next year, then do consider us. Yeah. There's there's lots of different ways we're we're registered on Give As You Live and and all those other places as well. So yeah. And like I say, every every fiber, every pound really will make a difference to the service that we deliver. So Indeed. Or Yeah. Get involved as a volunteer. Come and find out more about what we do. And, again, drop us a message.

Joanne Lockwood: And I'm a passionate supporter of Chrysalis. I always whenever I'm asked to nominate a charity, Chrysalis is the only name on the list. And you get my Amazon smiles and my Just Givings and my Facebooks wherever I can. So and also I give my time. I'm proud to be associated with Chrysalis and I know how much support Chrysalis and you personally gave me in my vortex days where I was confused, and I think it's only right that everybody's had the opportunity. So fantastic. Well, thank you, and a huge thank you to the listener. Thank you, listener, for tuning in and getting to the end here. Fantastic. Thank you very much. Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. Tell your colleagues. Get them to sign up and subscribe as well. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up, and I'm sure you'll be inspired by them over the next few weeks months also. And, of course, if you'd like to be a guest or if you have any comments, feedback, suggestions on how we can improve, send those to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. I'd love to hear from you, and I'd love for you to be a guest. So my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time.

Andi Maratos: Bye.