--- title: "Losing the Labels" episode: 44 date: 2021-09-09 guest: "Briana Tucker" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/44-losing-the-labels audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-044/audio.mp3 --- # Losing the Labels Briana Tucker describes what it feels like to live under constant scrutiny as a woman of colour in Wisconsin, where everyday situations can carry the risk of being stereotyped, labelled, or treated as a threat. She shares stark examples of overt racism and how assumptions about “aggression”, professionalism, and even hair and appearance shape what feels safe at work, in public, and at home. Joanne and Briana explore how labels and bias operate at both individual and institutional levels, including policing, healthcare, hiring, and education. They discuss the emotional and practical labour involved in staying safe, the role of allies validating experiences, and why people must take responsibility for their own learning rather than relying on marginalised communities to educate them. The conversation also touches on faith, spirituality, and finding ways to move from heightened awareness to action. Briana closes by sharing her consulting work in process improvement and DEI advocacy, and why she wants a future where people can live without being defined by stereotypes and can show up as themselves, unapologetically. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Pressure and labelling of women of colour. - 04:13 — Wisconsin has unrecognised diversity amid racism perceptions. - 09:52 — Cops aided supremacists; almost overturned car. - 11:53 — Constant survival mode, managing appearances for safety. - 14:46 — Living cautiously to ensure personal safety daily. - 19:58 — Prefers contacting family over police for help. - 23:39 — Raised Christian, now spiritual, accepting of all. - 27:14 — Two companies enhance operations with strategic questions. - 29:59 — Ensuring accessible, inclusive practices in business operations. - 33:10 — Operational analysis leads to continuous improvement. - 35:00 — Clients prioritise diversity; operations need improvement. - 39:14 — Awareness of racial injustices has significantly increased. - 42:10 — Denied hair touching, faced job threat consequences. - 46:33 — Increasing awareness and openness to bias conversations. - 49:40 — Embrace openness, respect differences, and foster understanding. - 54:31 — Share, join, suggest, and participate in podcast. ## Key takeaways - The significance of recognising everyone as having their own individual stories and the impact of unconditional love and respect in fostering inclusivity. - The definition and distinction of spirituality, focusing on love and non-judgement as human teachings rather than divine. - How businesses can enhance efficiency by analysing operations from the bottom up and identifying task interconnections. - The pervasive reality of direct racism and the emotional toll it takes on daily life. - Practical strategies to educate oneself about diversity and inclusion, leveraging resources like YouTube, TikTok, and educational books. - The entrenched racial and economic disparities in predominantly white areas and their impact on minority communities. - The call for personal responsibility in effecting change and respecting diverse experiences, emphasising self-education over reliance on minority communities for learning. ## FAQs ### Who are the hosts and guests in this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast? The episode "Losing the Labels" features Joanne Lockwood as the host and Brianna Tucker as the guest. Joanne is the founder of SEE Change Happen, and Brianna operates Browning Business Consulting and DE&I Advocates. ### What are the main themes discussed in this episode? The episode explores the importance of unconditional love and respect, recognising individual stories, spirituality focused on human values of love and non-judgement, and overcoming societal labels and stereotypes, particularly for black women. ### What businesses does Brianna Tucker operate, and what are their focuses? Brianna Tucker operates Browning Business Consulting, which focuses on process improvement and strategic operations, and DE&I Advocates, which enhances diversity and inclusion in workplaces by partnering with HR experts. ### How does Browning Business Consulting help businesses? Browning Business Consulting streamlines business processes by answering critical operational questions—who, what, when, where, and why—to improve efficiency and encourage critical thinking beyond mere checklists. ### What services does DE&I Advocates provide? DE&I Advocates educates clients on diversity, inclusion, and unconscious biases, aiming to create inclusive hiring practices and operational efficiency by leveraging local experts. ### What personal experiences of racism does Brianna Tucker share in the episode? Brianna shares numerous experiences, including direct racism at work, discouragement from pursuing engineering due to her race and gender, and surviving racial hostility post-Barack Obama's election. She also describes the constant state of caution she lives in to avoid perceptions of suspicion or threat. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a number of amazing people who have simply had a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you would like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf And let's get going. Today is episode 44. The title. Losing the labels. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Brianna Tucker. Brianna helps her clients streamline their operations through educational and process improvement techniques. When I asked Brianna to describe her superpower, she said it is her listening skills and ability to see through all of the fog. Hello, Brianna. Welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne. Brianna Tucker: Thanks for having me on the show today. I'm really excited to just chat with you and just have fun. Joanne Lockwood: So where are you based? I am based in Brianna Tucker: Jo. I am based in Wisconsin. Actually, I am probably 30 minutes from a major city, Milwaukee. And, it's absolutely beautiful outside, which is rare for us because it's usually cold. We don't really get summer. So I'm glad that I got to be in Milwaukee instead of where I'm actually living at, which is Hartford, Wisconsin. But Joanne Lockwood: in the UK, you know, we have rain, we have sun. We don't get much sun, then we get more rain and we'd be wind. Jo, weather for us is is variable. And I think we've had about in the middle of our middle of our summer, we've had 3 days of heat. That's our summer. So we're making we're making a question. I could probably survive over there because it's about the same Brianna Tucker: here in Wisconsin. Excellent. Joanne Lockwood: So when we're chatting earlier, you we we settled on the title of this podcast of of losing the labels. Tell me about why that's what why that's passionate for you. Yeah. Jo, Brianna Tucker: my experience as a woman of colour in Wisconsin, has been crazy. There's often times Jo much pressure on us to act a certain way, respond a certain way, look a certain way. And with that, there's so many labels of what's good versus bad, what's derogatory versus what is positive. Even, you know, just defining what derogatory is. It's just so complex that it gives you this uneasy feeling and this anxious feeling of what am I doing wrong now? Because you're so afraid of what label you're going to get, whether it's you're ignorant or you are too aggressive or you're, you know, just just all around a bad it's a bad feeling that people get when, you know, they have these labels and especially on black women here. It's very it's not easy to, avoid those those labels of angry black woman. And so you go through so many different trainings and courses on how to walk, talk, wear your hair, what makeup to wear, how to wear your makeup, what jewelry to wear, even how to enunciate your words, in a particular way. So, you know, it would be life changing to have that moment to not be defined by any one thing and just being able to be yourself unapologetically. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Do you think do you think it's you said as a black woman, do you live in a mainly white district or white town? Well, the town I'm in now is Brianna Tucker: predominantly white. Believe it or not, we have a lot of diversity in Milwaukee and especially Madison and probably even the Appleton area as well. But people don't really talk about it because it is a predominantly white state, but there's so many disparities with the income that the only thing people hear about Wisconsin is how racist we are. But we do have tons of diversity here. It's just, unfortunately, nobody knows about it because they only hear about that bad label of the racist state. Joanne Lockwood: I'd never heard that myself. No. I mean, that's a surprise. Brianna Tucker: That's like everybody whenever you say you're from Milwaukee, there's 2 things you hear. There's black people there, and then you also hear, isn't that the most racist state and city in the world? And I'm like, well, I don't know if it's in the world, but I know that we are very segregated, but no different than any other state or city. Joanne Lockwood: So you're kind of middle America that this that in that in that zone. Is that right in the is that right in the red zone Yeah. Vertically, is it? Exactly. We're usually, Brianna Tucker: one of the states that makes that final decision, or we have a very high influence on how things go, especially during, the presidential election. Jo Joanne Lockwood: is there is there a lot of poverty in your area, or is it a is it working spouse? In the city I live in now, Brianna Tucker: there is not a lot of impoverishment. But in the city of Milwaukee, yeah, definitely. But it also is siloed to certain zip codes in certain areas. Like, you can literally drive down the street and see the transition of impoverishment to, you know, an affluent area just by driving down one block, you know, in the same direction. And that just Joanne Lockwood: those those those districts aren't just black districts or they're white areas of impoverished as well, are there? Not as Brianna Tucker: much, honestly. It's mainly minorities. And and that's just not black people. That's Hispanics. And the the Hmong community, it's minorities in general. Wow. Joanne Lockwood: So you talk as a as a as a black woman intersectionally that, yeah, a lot going on in terms of your life and your history and your background. Yeah. How much do you think you're influenced by being black versus being a woman, or do you think there's there's equal oppression going on in both parts? Brianna Tucker: Well, I guess for each person, it's different. For me, I can say that I've felt more oppression from my blackness than I have from being a woman. Being a woman has been actually a bonus in some situations because people want that, again, a label of being diverse. And so they love the fact that I am a woman, but my blackness intimidates them. And that's a word that's often used when referring to, especially, people of colour in general. Jo you think there's a lot of white Joanne Lockwood: fragility where people are are kinda scared of of of having their privilege challenged and Yeah. Threatened by the presence of black people. Is that Oh, yeah. Is that the culture? Well and I I can't say Brianna Tucker: that that's necessarily the culture, but that's definitely something that you feel as a person of colour here in Wisconsin. You, you, go through different experiences where people blatantly tell you and it and show you why they don't like you. And usually, it's because of the colour of your skin. Joanne Lockwood: Jo it's not not subtle racism. It's overt and in your face. Overt. Yeah. I have gone on interviews Brianna Tucker: in which the managers have called me back after the interview and told me, we don't hire your kind here. So, yeah, it's it's blatant. It's not covered up in any way, shape, or form. They are very direct. And it depends on the company too. Right? Like, you know, that's not the experience with everything, but in most cases, for myself, I've had people blatantly tell me or even when I went to college, I'll never forget, my advisor told me that he was not going to waste his time on me because I was a black female, and the only thing that was gonna happen is I was gonna drop out and have a whole bunch of babies and lay on my back. So he was wasting his time by trying to encourage me to become an engineer. So, yeah, it's blatant. It's raw and direct. And so if you don't have tough skin, it'll kill you emotionally. Is this is this 2020? This is not Rosa Parks. This is Joanne Lockwood: not 1950 show. No. Exactly. This this shit still happens? Yes. Wow. Yes. I mean, when we talk about racism in the UK, a lot of it is more systemic and structural rather than in your face. I'm not saying in your face doesn't happen. Right. But it doesn't happen to the same extent. You know, I'm I'm completely blown away by the over experience you've had. Oh, yeah. Or even Brianna Tucker: another experience for me that is, like, I guess, ingrained and burned into my memory is when Barack Obama got elected the first time. There was a group of white supremacists driving next to me, as I was on my way to visit a friend to celebrate, you know, that Barack Obama had won the election because that was a huge deal here in the United States or just anywhere in general. And the cops helped the white supremacists try to tip over my car. And I I my car actually did tip over on 2 wheels, but thankfully, I don't know if it was the wind or whatever, but it knocked me back onto all fours and I was able to speed up enough that I could kinda disguise myself in traffic. And that's the only reason why I'm still here. But it's blatant. It's not it's not hidden at all. There's no buffer in most cases. I'm really struggling to Joanne Lockwood: find words. This is this is a new concept to me. I I mean, you hear about it. You see the press, especially in the in the wake of George Floyd's murder and some of the riots, some of the was it the Tulsa? I saw some stuff in Tulsa and the massacre there. And I've never heard a conversation with somebody who is telling me like it is for them. This is eye opening and ear opening and Oh, thank you. It's it's incredible. I mean, I don't mean that in a it's incredible how how powerful that is. And Yeah. And how I think coming from middle class United Kingdom, we're so buffered from this experience that you have, and it's just to us, it's kind of TV and Hollywood. Right. But it's real, isn't it? Yeah. It's very real. I Brianna Tucker: mean, like I said in the beginning, there is an immense amount of pressure and I can say that as, you know, just from my own experience, where you are constantly living in a state of survival mode, where you're trying to figure out, okay, what do I do? Where do I go? How do I get there? Do I travel by myself, or do I have to travel with other people? And what kinds of other people am I traveling with? Because I can't have too many white people, otherwise, they look suspicious. And I can't have too many black people because that looks suspicious. So I have to have, like, a ratio of people around me that looks diverse so that I'm safe. And even then, I'm still not safe because if I say something that feels or can be perceived as aggressive or intimidating, I still could lose my life. Joanne Lockwood: You say, if you're with too many white people, that's also not safe? Brianna Tucker: That's also not safe. Really? Because it depends on, 1, who the white people are, where we're going, and in some, like, I've had instances where, because I went to a I had a very unique experience growing up. My mother, is an amazing person and she was a teacher in the public school system for Milwaukee. And she placed my brother and I in private schools. And Jo, when I went to high school, it was a predominantly white, affluent high school. And here I am living in impoverishment. Jo, I got to see both worlds firsthand. And I will never forget the day that we, which was bad on my part, but I snuck out with my friends and we went to lunch off campus. And, we got stopped by the cops and the cops pulled me out of the car. And they told me that I don't belong with my friends. And Jo, they tried to put me in the police car and luckily, one of my good friends was like, Jo, she has to go back to school. She goes to school with us. And I had to show them my ID card just to show them that I really did go to that high school because most people know that that's a very affluent high school. And once I showed him my ID card, he was like, Yeah, just be safer next time. And then, I got back in the car and we went back to school. So, yeah, it's very real. It's something that you I don't know that a lot of people think of because as a woman of colour, it's something that we don't usually talk about. You just kinda live it and put all these rules in your head of what should I do, what shouldn't I do. And hope and pray that it that'll keep you safe to see the next day. But there's no there's no actual confirmation that that will, you know, because you do have situations like Breonna Taylor. And that hit me harder than anything because I'm like, Breonna Taylor is very close to the name Joanne Tucker. And how hard is that to know that even in my own home, I might not be safe? And that's the one place that I'm supposed to feel safe. And here I am living Joanne experience where I am consistently thinking, praying and just being strategic all day, every day to make sure that I don't do anything that may appear aggressive, rude, or too ethnic or urban is another phrase that they use here. Just so that I could make it to see the next day and I can see my family and my loved ones. So it's very real and powerful even today. Joanne Lockwood: So a random knock at the door at night must have Freaks me the hell out. Yeah. Freaks me out. Brianna Tucker: So you don't feel safe in your home? You don't feel safe in your car? Joanne Lockwood: No. You didn't feel safe on the street? You didn't feel safe in the shop? Brianna Tucker: No. And I I can't tell you, how many times. And actually, it's so bad to the point where you don't even acknowledge it yourself until someone else sees it. Because I was actually shopping with a good friend of mine and she's white. And we were at a store, and the store clerks consistently followed me around. And I'm so used to it that it didn't bother me, but it bothered my friend because she was like, hey, what's what's going on? Why is this happening? And I'm like, do you not see my skin? Do you not see what they see? They think I'm gonna steal. They think I'm going to do something or destroy something because there's such negative inner or negative images of people of colour here that they don't trust us to just come into a store and shop. And that person consistently followed me, and then they called for the casual cloth security and police officer to follow me until we got out of the store. So it's all day every day to the point where you just do stuff naturally. It's not even a second thought anymore. Joanne Lockwood: This is so ingrained in the white mentality that white is good and black is bad is is ingrained at the core, isn't it? Yeah. This is not a this is not like a casual thing. This is like No. A real deep held belief Yeah. They are better. You are you are worse. Yeah. And like I said, Brianna Tucker: I can't even say it's just black, unfortunately. It's anything different. Hispanic or Chinese. Anything different. Far east. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Anything different. So what about other communities? The LGBT community presumably is is different, is it? Yep. Brianna Tucker: And here, that's, you know, you have certain conservative cities that that's not okay. You don't openly express your love to someone if you are within the LGBTQ community in certain cities because they will let you know that that's not appropriate according to them. So, yeah, it's anything different. Being a woman and Joanne Lockwood: being gay or being trans is, like, what that is I I I don't Brianna Tucker: even know if I have the words of how much anxiety that that brings to me just thinking about what that person may go through. Because especially when it comes to being someone that might be trans or gay, men and women get that horribly. Like, they're isolated. They are spoken down to and just ridiculed and they experience so much so much hardship just in general because that's not something that you are allowed to do. It's very conservative. Joanne Lockwood: So the people that are there that you believe to protect you, the government, the state, the police, Brianna Tucker: they're they're not they're they're they're institutionally part of the problem, aren't Joanne Lockwood: they? They're there. Yeah. Like, Jo. I I Brianna Tucker: rely and I'm sure I can save that for at least a lot of the people that I know. We rely on each other. I've my first mind would never be to call the cops if I was in a a bad situation. It would be to call certain relatives or, you know, my mom or certain friends that I have. I would never call the police first. They would be the probably the last people that I would call. And even with lawyers, you know, my brother, unfortunately, he had a bad experience with lawyers where the lawyer was just like, hey, you're gonna go to jail either way, so just take the plea. You know, that's a very real experience. And so, no, you you just don't trust any government officials or any people that are within government because it's a pattern of, hey, you're not actually going to help me. You're only going to help yourself. Joanne Lockwood: That's a white judge, a white jury, white lawyers. In Brianna Tucker: lost cases. Yeah. The white press have already found you Joanne Lockwood: guilty? Yep. Exactly. This sounds like a a story out of the 1800, not a 2020 story. This this is I mean, I I had a belief that at least things were better than they were. This sounds like Jo progress has been made in decades. No. In fact, worse. No. Yeah. It it's Brianna Tucker: I will say, we saw a huge shift here in the United States, you know. And it doesn't mean by any means that Trump influenced any of those things. But during his election time, people became more aggressive. Whereas prior to that, and actually, I would say even with Barack Obama with how many threats he had to his life between those two presidents, we saw a huge influx of, blatant racism being increased opposed to suppressed. And, the way in the violence, the acts of violence is crazy. Like, it it's not necessarily that it didn't happen before those 2 presidents, but it definitely got worse during those 2 those 3 terms or whatever. So, yeah, it just So it it Joanne Lockwood: prodded that white fragility and and and gave them a a common reason to fight back against the rising of black people or something. Is that is that how it seemed? Yeah. Brianna Tucker: I'm How dare black people have have rights? How dare black people dare to have Joanne Lockwood: a president? Well and and again, it wasn't Brianna Tucker: just black people. It was how dare, them legalize different, you know, the marriage of 2 same sex couples or, you know, how dare they allow different things to occur that we don't like? If it's not a conservative thing, how dare they? We don't like that. We want it to be conservative. Hence, this sort of demonization Joanne Lockwood: of liberal, any anything that is liberal or progressive seen as anti church, anti Christian, anti family values. Yep. Exactly. Brianna Tucker: Exactly. But but your community have a faith, a religion, Joanne Lockwood: family values. Yeah. You you don't ostracize people who are different from your faith, do you? You you Well, Brianna Tucker: I will say that I was raised in a Christian house, so my father was actually a minister. Jo I was a preacher's kid, but I I actually ended up growing up to become spiritual. I don't identify within the Christian community anymore just because I didn't feel comfortable ostracizing people that didn't look like me, and especially, people that identified within the LGBTQ community because my experience in was that people that were within that community, they were some of the greatest people. And I couldn't imagine how a God that I believe in would ostracize them and choose me, even if I was, you know, the worst person in the world, but they were the greatest person in the world. I couldn't make that connection. I couldn't understand how that could happen. So I I still obviously, you know, know a lot about the Christian faith, the Catholic faith, because I grew up in Catholic schools. But myself, personally, I identify as spiritual just because I couldn't I I truly took love my neighbor as myself, literal. I I would love myself unconditionally. So I the only thing I can do is love everybody else that same way and show them that same respect. And especially with some of my experiences, if that's my story and every person is an individual book Joanne an individual story, I don't know what their story is. I can only see the cover. So I I don't wanna do anything that's disrespectful or hurtful or that ostracizes other people, especially because I don't know their story. I don't know what happened to them in their, you know, previous life or in the past. So I always that's just how I chose to live my life is just be respectful and kind and loving to everybody because we all deserve it. Yeah. I'm Joanne Lockwood: I'm certainly not religious, but I do have a kind of spirituality, and I I believe in that inner inner voice, that inner calm, that more Buddhist, I suppose, as a sort of a mantra. But you're right, that love our neighbor as you'd love yourself sort of religion My interpretation is that religion doesn't shouldn't teach you to hate or it doesn't teach you to hate. Right. That's a human thing, isn't it? That's a human thing. Yep. Judge judgment is a is a human thing, not a not a a spiritual godly thing. Brianna Tucker: Right. And for me too, it was, if we're all created in his image, then we're all great. We're all amazing in our own And none of us are mistakes. And none of us are mistakes. We're not we're not mistakes, are we? Right. Everything is perfect. Joanne Lockwood: So Right. So As I say, I there's so many so many challenges and and contrary messages in in text. I I I I'm I'm quite comfortable being spiritual, not religious. And Yeah. Likewise. Jo you you your your business, Browning, BC, is it? Yeah. Browning Business Consulting. Brianna Tucker: Mhmm. Yeah. What what what is your you Joanne Lockwood: you you've got a DNI, focus. What what is it you're doing? What working with companies? Yeah. So, actually, there's Brianna Tucker: there are 2 different companies. Browning Business Consulting, I focus on process improvement. And, essentially, what I do is I work with my clients to lay a good foundation so that they understand what are my operations. I need to be able to always answer the 5 questions, who, what, when, where, and why. You know, like, and you start with the what. What are you trying to accomplish? Okay? Who do you need in order to accomplish that? How are they going to help you? When should they help you? And why are they important to that process? So helping them critically think and make sure that every decision they're making operationally answers those 5 questions so that it is a strategic way of how they do their operations. And, you know, you're also giving that view of, is this efficient, is this not efficient opposed to right or wrong? That has been, you know, what's really catapulted my clients into business growth and development. And it makes it simple opposed to, you know, trying to speak from this academia level. It brings it personal and something easily relatable. And then, I have a partnership with someone that's, in HR here in the States. She's amazing. And it's called DE and I Associates. I mean, Advocates. I'm sorry. And there, what we're doing is we are utilizing the local talent that are already in diversity and inclusion. I know that I am not an expert in that realm. I know what my lived experience is, but I can't speak for everyone. And I know that there are people that have actually taken the time to educate themselves, to go through the different trainings, and etcetera Jo that they can appropriately treat, teach those subjects, help people understand the difference between conscious and unconscious biases. So we use those subject matter experts to kind of take people through diversity school. So you go through a couple of different workshops with different subject matter experts. It's not just one, you're going through multiple. And then my partner and I are working with you strategically to make sure, one, you are inclusive in your hiring process because she's an HR expert and real like I said, she's absolutely brilliant. Jo she helps them make sure that their job descriptions are written in a way that is inclusive for everyone. And then I, on the other side, come in and help you look at your operations and see, okay, are you doing things in a way that is accessible for other people and not just the typical, hey, I am, you know, maybe able-bodied person or I'm a person that's able to visually see things easily. So 2 different businesses, but kinda the the same thing. And obviously, with my own personal business, I just try to, do my best to incorporate the things that I'm doing for the DE and I business within my Browning Business Consulting Business. And making sure that people understand that for me and Browning Business Consulting Business Consulting, diversity is more than just a word. It's it's an ex it's my lived experience. And so, as a person, you are going to be treated only as a person. I am not going to do anything to you or disrespect you or talk down to you or demean you or try to make it seem as if I'm so educated and you're not. I'm going to make sure that your experience is the opposite of what I experienced. Joanne Lockwood: I love that you start with the the what. Because when I consult with clients around DEI, I always start with what are you trying to achieve? Yeah. And then next question I ask is why does it matter to you? Right. Because if you don't know what you're trying to achieve and why it matters, there's no point in embarking on the journey. You know, you talk about the where. I talk about the direction of travel, the speed of travel. But unless you know what you're trying to achieve, you never know if you've got there. Right. Jo and you have to get you have to understand why it matters to you as well as a business and as a person. So I think that's a great starting point, and I use that without putting in the words you did. And it's it's it's very powerful to to really root it in that what. What are you trying to achieve? Yeah. And then everything should fit into place. As you say, if you answer those questions into my order, it starts fitting into place. Yeah. Right. Brianna Tucker: Well, because I noticed, with my work as a employee, that in most cases, we we have a list of tasks. Right? But we never really understand the whole story behind those tasks. We're just doing them. And so, things aren't done efficiently because it's just like we're checking off a checklist and making sure things are getting done. Whereas, if you're critically answering those questions, then you're starting to think, okay, how do these tasks relate to one another? And are these tasks even necessary in order to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish? Because usually, in business, there's multilevels. Right? You have your, you have your business goals, and then you have your operational goals. And then within those operational goals, you'll probably have even more goals as far as like how you accomplish those different tabs. And so, when you break it down and you just start from the bottom up because in most cases, that's what people do. And you look at how everything relates to one another, you can see that domino effect of how this one task leads to everything else being accomplished. So I found that starting with, you know, letting them look at their operations and analyzing how are how's everything getting done? Who's helping you to get these things done? Then that starts them on a path of starting to look at everything that they're doing because they're putting it into practice and then they're also able to see the benefits of, okay, I answered these 5 questions and now, I'm realizing that there's some things that I could probably clean up to make it more efficient And it just, you know, kind of naturally promotes that continuous improvement type environment. Joanne Lockwood: Do you ever get frustrated that you find yourself talking to the converted, the echo chamber, because the people you work with are already woke. They're already thinking in this way. Sometimes, it's it we we actually wanna bang the heads together with the people who aren't in the room, the people who aren't engaging, people who aren't listening. Because, generally, I'm sure the many of the companies you work with are already on the right path anyway. They're already thinking in that more diverse, more inclusive way. Brianna Tucker: Yes. As far as diversity, yes, they are. As far as their operations on the other hand, it's, Joanne Lockwood: you know Okay. It's still a little bit different Brianna Tucker: because they're not answering those critical questions. They are kinda just taking it day by day and surviving. So, you know, similar to me, they're just working each and every day. And most of my clients have been smaller businesses, so it's easier to control, you know, how diverse your company is. And to your point, yes. In In most of the cases, my clients have been people that even if they don't want to have this super diverse culture, they are at least able to know that respecting that is important and you have to do that in order to be my client because I won't tolerate anything outside of that. So, yeah. Like I said, to to that point, I'm talking to people that already feel and acknowledge the same thing that I do as far as diversity, but we still gotta clean up their operations. For sure. Joanne Lockwood: People often ask me, do I experience a lot of bias about my own identity in business and the world the world I work in? Right. And generally, I don't. The reason is Interesting. People people know who I am. I don't hide who I am. Okay. It's kind of right in my identity right out there in the middle. So people who come to me come to me because of who I am. So people who don't come to me, maybe don't come to me because of who I am, but then I don't hear them. All I hear is the people who do wanna work with me. So I I I have a very positive experience in life because I only ever work with people who wanna work with me. And then they come to me. So Right. I I suppose I that's a privilege I have is that by being professionally trans, I avoid I avoid that that that stigma of of trying to hide it or cover it or Right. Or mask it. I just I'm out there front and center, then that creates its own market. So I I realized a while ago that I I am privileged. I'm not I'm not a, I don't have another role, if you like. I'm not an account and I'm not a codeveloper. So trying to get over that job whilst being trans. I have the privilege of being professionally trans, which means that's what you get. Yep. That's what you're getting. I don't I don't that's what you're gonna get. So in a way, it's a superpower or at least it's Yeah. It is. Brianna Tucker: It definitely is. And Joanne Lockwood: I I guess you're working with mainly black owned businesses. So being black helps you with those businesses, is it? Well, actually, I my most of Brianna Tucker: my clients are white. So Wow. Okay. You know? Does that go against the, the grain in terms Joanne Lockwood: of the societal expectations? I mean, it it's, you know, from when you were talking earlier, it sounded like you are more likely to be rejected, but there's obviously a community or a side side of your society that is open is is inclusive. Yeah. Ironically, none of my clients live in Brianna Tucker: Wisconsin. But Okay. Joanne Lockwood: Okay. So outside of the borders. That's pretty much Yeah. They're outside of the Brianna Tucker: borders. They're, you know, East Coast, Southwest, part of the United States. Jo, I think obviously, and that's another thing that's kind of interesting, I guess, about the United States is the way people embrace cultures and diversity in different areas is crazy. You can literally actually see and feel how even city by city within some of the states that, you know, diversity is accepted or not. Jo, yeah, ironically, most of my clients have been white, white women, ironically. Well, Joanne Lockwood: that's fantastic, isn't it? That's Yeah. It means you yeah. So has has the world changed where you are locally in the last 18 months since George Floyd or has it got, you know, heightened awareness? I think it's Brianna Tucker: more heightened awareness. I believe that, more people are starting to acknowledge those experiences where prior to George Floyd and more so Breonna Taylor as well, that it was kind of like like you were saying earlier, where it's things that you feel like it just happens on TV. It's not something that actually happens to you. And I know that in Wisconsin, we've had, other victims similar to, Breonna Taylor and George Floyd that have experienced that and they, you know, sued the city and etcetera. So I think it's the awareness has become stronger. Mhmm. And there's obviously some people that still say, hey, you guys are making this up. But there's a lot more people saying, I don't even think I realized what was going on because I felt like this was just something in the history books. And they're taking those actionable steps to try to unlearn some of those unconscious biases that they didn't even realize they had. So it's it's been both negative and positive, I guess. Joanne Lockwood: Are they conscious or unconscious? Oh, yeah. A lot of these sound like a brain has a brain. Hate, isn't it? Yeah? It's Cultural hate. It's both. Brianna Tucker: And that the biggest difference is the acknowledgement of it. Right? Because in some cases, yes, you are raised a certain way. You might be raised to think like, I remember one person told me that, she was raised to think that black people were inherently ignorant and that, you know, Hispanic people were inherently hard workers and that they were only good for labor work. And she didn't realize that that was something wrong, that that that's not something you should think about those people. You should just get to know them as individuals. So it's she she knew that that was there, but she also didn't understand how that thought or that bias affected the rest of her life and how she treated people. So it's a combination. Joanne Lockwood: I'm still struggling to find some words after listening to you speak all the time. It's such a different world that you're telling me about that I had no appreciation existed. As I all I've seen is the Hollywood representation, the CNN representation. Well and now you know a real person that Brianna Tucker: has experienced that consistently throughout her entire life. I mean, the stories are endless even from I remember or another example, I should say, of how things happen here is I typically wear protective styling for my hair. I absolutely love my hair. It's naturally curly, coily, brown hair, and it actually turns red too, believe it or not. And I had an experience where I wore my hair in its natural state. And a white woman thought that it was beautiful and tried to touch my hair, and I told her no. And basically, to make a long story short, I almost lost my job because I told her no. She reported me and said that I was, again, aggressive, rude, disrespectful, all because I wouldn't allow her to touch my natural hair because I knew, hey, you know, black hair is beautiful, but it takes a lot of work for us to maintain it and protect it and, you know, make sure that it's healthy. And I'm like, literally, this is a 2 to 3 day process to get my hair the the way that it needs to be. So I don't want you touching my hair because that means I have to start this process over, and I usually only do that on weekends. And how about just respect the fact that I need personal space and respect that that I want my personal space. But yeah, she reported me and said that I was being rude and aggressive and mean. And thankfully, again, other people came and said, hey, that wasn't the situation. Like, Brianna just said Jo. And the lady continued to try to touch her hair and she said no again. And then eventually, Brianna walked away. But that's kind of the story here, or at least for me is, I have so many experiences where if it wasn't for other people validating the experience that I was living, no one would believe me. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I've got black friends in the UK, and they tell me they're often getting people touched in their hair or asking about the hair. The hair is always a big deal. Yeah. And it's it's another micro question. It just becomes a kind of, oh, here we go again, doesn't it? Yep. Exactly. Exactly. Brianna Tucker: And and like I said, the the irony is even when you say no, it's like, I don't care that you said no. I'm gonna do it anyway because that's what I wanna do. Joanne Lockwood: Jo you feel that you're having to comply and allowing white people effectively take over your take over and tell you what you can and can't do, and they feel they got rights to it? Exactly. That's exactly how it is. I Brianna Tucker: mean, even like you said earlier with, you know, even within the health care system or whatever, it's more of, hey, I'm the white person. You're gonna tell I'm gonna tell you what you should do and you're just gonna do it. And if you don't do it and you don't comply, then this is what's gonna happen to you. Even down to healthcare, I mean, there's been instances where I've had to advocate for myself by hopping from doctor to doctor to doctor to doctor because, hey, this doctor over here said, Jo, that's not what it is. You're fine. You're allowed to tolerate that. Or Jo, you shouldn't get this because you're just trying to get more drugs, so you can sell the drugs or so you can take the drugs. So it's that constant, I'm going to tell you what you need, opposed to listening to what I'm saying and acknowledging that my experience or whatever I'm telling you is what it is for me. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, again, listen to the incredible stories around this white or privileged entitlement that occurs, and it it occurs in the UK, but never to the extent you describe it. Is there optimism for the future? I mean, can you see things changing? Oh, definitely. I would Brianna Tucker: say, especially here in Wisconsin, I have seen quite a bit, like I was talking about earlier where, you know, that conscious, unconscious bias combination is being acknowledged now. And so a lot of people are wanting to have those conversations to see, okay, what have we been doing? Because similar to you, it's like, I'm so disconnected from this and there's things that I'm doing that I don't even realize I'm doing. I wanna learn. Jo I feel like between, you know, us all growing together and seeing different experiences and being open to have those conversations. And, you know, just people willing to educate themselves as well. Right? Like, not relying on those minority, communities even within LGBTQ. Like, we're not gonna rely on that community to educate us on how they should be respected. We're also going to do the research for ourselves and make sure that we're asking questions and not being afraid to ask ask those questions and have those tough conversations. But it's definitely starting to happen. And so I feel like, you know, I may not see it in my lifetime, but I know that it's going to happen sooner than later because people are actively doing things now to try to make things better later. Even in Milwaukee? Even in Milwaukee. We're actively doing things now to try to make things better. A lot more different initiatives, a lot more auditing as far as, like, HR is concerned to see are we truly diverse? Are we truly inclusive? Have we ever had any experiences where people felt isolated? There's more companies trying to incorporate holistic, approaches to healthcare. So including things like therapy sessions or support groups and, you know, different groups to advocate for the rights of all humans. Jo, yeah. Even here, I mean, it's they're baby steps, but even baby steps are good steps. They're all steps. They all count. Yeah. I I Joanne Lockwood: agree that we can all walk away from the problem, but we may not be able to change the world on our own, but we can change the world around us. So if we choose not to make a difference, then we're letting it we're letting it pass for somebody else to take over. So I think we all gotta be the 1. And if we're all the one, that makes a difference. Yeah. And that difference adds becomes cumulative, doesn't it? Exactly. That's what we can all do. Yeah. When people say, what can I do? We you can change yourself. That sort of thing. Exactly. Yep. And we infect other people with this inclusion virus. Right. Brianna Tucker: Exactly. You know? Spread it everywhere. Yeah. And and the thing that I've learned to embrace too, even for myself is being okay with knowing that you're not going to understand everything. I'm never going to understand what your life is like as a trans woman because that's not my lived experience. And even my experience to another black woman's experience, I'm not going to understand that because that wasn't my experience. But I am open to, you know, just hearing your story if you're willing to share, respecting your space, and respecting your voice. And as long as we all just start there with, like I said, asking those questions, even if they're hard or even if they may not come out the right way, you know, because that's the other big fear is that, hey, I might ask you a question that technically is inappropriate and I don't want it to be inappropriate, but I I'm I'm curious. I wanna know. So kind of a a two way street, right, where I'm willing to be open to have those questions and comments and conversations, but I'm also expecting you to do the same thing. And if we all kinda commit to just that basic thing, yeah, it can change tremendously. Yep. Do the work. Do the work. Do the work. You can do the work yourself. Yep. I agree. I think too often people Joanne Lockwood: put too much reliance on other people Oh, yes. To do the education, to tell me how tell me where I'm going wrong. Right. I mean, YouTube, that you can watch tens and thousands of hours of YouTube if you want lived experience and wanna hear, if you wanna ask a question. Yeah. I mean, Brianna Tucker: there's and believe it or not, there's so many shared stories similar to mine from all different communities on even something as simple as TikTok, which is one minute, you know, in most cases. Or if you are a person that you love to read books, there are tons of educational books on, you know, being supportive and and breaking down those conscious and unconscious biases. So, yeah, there's too many resources now for us not to take some onus on ourselves and do the work. Joanne Lockwood: Well, I can't believe we've been talking for almost an hour. That's incredible. Brianna Tucker: Thank you so much. You made it so easy. I appreciate that. I know you were a bit worried at the beginning whether we Joanne Lockwood: could talk for an hour, but I I knew we'd find some words and Yeah. Brianna Tucker: I definitely was. I was completely freaking out because I thought, what the heck am I gonna say? And to such a a audience that has heard so many great speakers prior to me, it was like, man, this is pressure. They're exciting. But it was amazing. Joanne Lockwood: You're right out there on the the people I've interviewed, and this is right up there in terms of personal impact. This is right up there in in yeah. I've I feel moved. You've almost reduced me to tears on a couple of occasions. So, yeah, you you have you have made me the one who who has learned from this and I I really I've been this so much. I've valued what you said so much and, You are way too kind. Brianna Tucker: I'm just No. Sharing my story so that other people know that they're not by themselves because Yeah. We don't talk about it and that's part of the problem. So, even if I don't have someone. Someone listening to my story, that opens up because I'm sure even in the UK, people just probably haven't shared their story because it's so taboo to do. So, even if maybe they listen to it and they become more brave to let their voice shine, that's that in and of itself is huge to me and I appreciate you just saying that and acknowledging my experience. So thank you. Joanne Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. How could people get a hold of you if they wanna find out more? Sure. They can reach me. I am on Brianna Tucker: Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. My username on all three platforms is bbiz, B-B-I-Z, Consulting. And my website is actually the same. It's bbizconsulting.com. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I'll put those in the show notes that there there as well. Thank you so much. So a huge thank you for the listeners for tuning in, for listening, for making it to the end. And I'm sure, like me, you could have listened for another hour or so. This has been amazing. So do keep do subscribe, because you'll hear future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. Tell your colleagues so they can share in these stories as well. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks months. Of course, if you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. And I'd always welcome feedback, suggestions on future shows, and how we can improve this to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.