--- title: "Freedom for Everybody" episode: 43 date: 2021-09-02 guest: "Lulu Minns" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/43-freedom-for-everybody audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-043/audio.mp3 --- # Freedom for Everybody Joanne Lockwood is joined by coach and retreat specialist Lulu Minns to explore what “freedom for everybody” really means, and why it matters for inclusion. Lulu reflects on her former career as a criminal defence lawyer and the frustration of working inside systems shaped by privilege, bias, and entrenched gender expectations. Together, they discuss how women are often expected to tone down assertiveness, how everyday sexism shows up through behaviours like mansplaining and unwanted physical cues, and how that cumulative pressure can be exhausting. The conversation moves into what freedom looks like in practice: creating time and space to think, recover, and create. Lulu shares why retreats can be transformational for women and why confidence, permission, and self-trust are often the real barriers—not capability. They also explore how leadership and workplace norms could shift by valuing listening as much as speaking, making room for diverse opinions, and moving away from rigid “command and control” approaches. The episode closes with reflections on how cultural change—at home, at work, and in society—requires rewriting inherited rules so that more people can thrive. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Frustrated by system, left after gaining confidence. - 10:08 — Women lack time; retreats transformative for them. - 13:28 — Self-care requires effort, planning, and prioritisation. - 16:47 — Nature and nurture both influence individuals profoundly. - 25:19 — Empathy is undervalued in traditional professions. - 28:26 — Early legal career: Addressed inappropriate workplace behaviour. - 38:18 — Women face societal limitations on self-expression. - 39:21 — Couple reassessing traditional gender roles, contentedly. - 46:09 — Freedom is personal; diverse needs require individuality. - 54:40 — Create independence through self-reflection using rubber ducking. - 56:26 — Clients struggle with decision-making; immediate decisions challenging. - 01:03:18 — Share with friends; subscribe for guest notifications. ## Key takeaways - The complexity of business networking, especially post-Me Too, with a focus on social greetings like hugs and kisses. - Why empathy is a crucial, yet often underappreciated, skill in professional settings, particularly in the legal field. - How subtle physical gestures in business can reinforce patriarchal power dynamics and what that means for inclusivity. - The importance of nurturing feminine principles like inclusivity and oneness in traditionally male-dominated professions. - The benefits of understanding and balancing individual energy dynamics to enhance personal and professional relationships. - The ongoing debate and personal experiences surrounding office culture versus the flexibility of remote work. - The necessity for creating spaces that encourage creativity and offer personal freedom, moving away from outdated industrial and educational systems. ## FAQs ### What are the key themes discussed in the "Freedom for Everybody" episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast? This episode covers a wide range of topics, including the complexities of business networking, the importance of empathy in the legal profession, physical contact and power dynamics in business settings, workplace inclusivity, the influence of patriarchal structures, the balance of masculine and feminine energies, modern work dynamics, and societal expectations around gender and self-care. ### How does Lulu Mintz view the role of empathy in her legal career? Lulu Mintz believes that empathy is a critical, yet often undervalued, skill in the legal profession. She sees herself as particularly adept at anticipating courtroom dynamics due to her empathetic nature, which she points out is traditionally associated with femininity. ### What challenges does Lulu Mintz mention about physical contact in the workplace? Lulu Mintz shares how physical contact in business settings can sometimes be uncomfortable and how subtle gestures can reinforce patriarchal power imbalances. Joanne Lockwood supports this by discussing how such interactions can perpetuate power dynamics unconsciously. ### How does the podcast discuss the blend of masculine and feminine energies? Both speakers, especially Lulu, talk about the fluidity of masculine and feminine energies and societal attempts to impose rigid structures on these dynamics. They note the importance of balancing different energy days and how understanding individual energies can improve relationships and productivity. ### What are the speakers' views on the current work environment and remote work? Joanne Lockwood criticises narratives that push for a universal return to office work, calling for alternative work paradigms that focus on learning, nurturing, and community involvement. Both speakers advocate for flexible work schedules, highlighting the benefits of work-life balance and creativity. ### What insights does Lulu Mintz offer on inclusivity and feminism? Lulu identifies as a "rebel feminist," who champions equality and inclusivity across all genders. She underscores the importance of feminine-based principles like inclusivity and oneness and contends that these should be balanced with traditionally masculine values for societal progress. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've interviewed a number of amazing people and simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 43 with a title of freedom for everybody, and I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Lulu Mintz. Lulu says she is a rebel radio podcaster, an award winning coach, and a retreat specialist. And when I asked Lulu to describe her superpower, she said she is a challenger by nature. Hello, Lulu. Welcome to the show. Lulu Mintz: Hi, Joanne. It's really good to be with you. And it's always interesting for a challenger by nature to be interviewed rather than interviewing. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I suppose it is. Yeah. Beyond the other other end of the, of the mic, so to speak. We've been talking about getting you on the show for a couple of months now, and finally, pleased we've, managed to achieve it on this beautiful sunny day in the middle of June. Fantastic. Yeah. Lulu Mintz: Absolutely. Yeah. It's quite tempting to do it in the garden. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I know. It'd be lovely, wouldn't it? I think I must bring up my studio out there. Mhmm. So tell me, you we we called this episode freedom for everybody. What does that mean to you? Oh, it's such a good question. It means Lulu Mintz: so much to me, actually, and you probably know as well when you kind of do work on yourself, when you run a business as a consultant, etcetera, looking at your values, freedom's always been a really core value of mine. Jo much so. You know, I was a criminal defense lawyer before doing what I do now and, you know, literally fought for people's freedom from incarceration, if you like. So when I was really doing work on myself, quite a lot of emotion came up for me as to how important freedom is. And I've always used the word rebel in my branding and, you know, all all rebels, you know, want freedom. But I often say all she rebels, don't just want freedoms for themselves. They want freedom for everybody else. And I feel like, you know, as a society and in humanity right now, we're really on a tipping point of exploring what that looks like and, how we can move forward with that and really looking at how much women have to contribute to the narrative of freedom for everyone. So it really is a call that runs through everything I do and everything I always have done. But I mentioned that kind of emotional piece. I've always felt as well a certain degree of rejection for being a rebel, for being a challenger by nature, and always, you know, running running forward with with freedom above anything else really for myself and for other people. Joanne Lockwood: That must have been, I suppose, as a rebel, must have been tricky being a defense story at times because you must have seen some injustice, and you must be fighting for people that maybe were, in the marginalized section of society who didn't have, if you like, their human rights being protected and that must have been quite frustrating for you at times. Yeah, it Lulu Mintz: was. Luckily kind of when I started, I was a bit, you know, green behind the ears or wet behind the ears or whatever they call it. So, you know, I was kind of still learning the ropes. But certainly, as I became more confident and self assured in, you know, you know, being vocal in court and knowing that I was right about certain things, I did become increasingly frustrated with what I was seeing and and more powerful in what I was saying and advocating for, but also really more frustrated in in seeing the kind of systems it were for for what it was, which was a big part of me leaving actually because I kind of felt like I have to become part of this system to to really flourish more than I had done already and I refused to do that. Jo, yeah, it it was it was tough tough to watch, and I learned a lot, but was glad that I left when I did. Joanne Lockwood: I'm gonna ask you a leading question now. Why was it frustrating for you? Was it is it that the process itself is steeped in privilege and bias, or is it just that traditional or old school nature or maybe the it's a man's world still in the in the legal system? Yeah. It Lulu Mintz: was kind of all of it really thrown in, and it it took, you know, departing from it to really start to unpick that. I I didn't even notice. I was probably naive in some ways, you know, growing up in Brighton, which there's a lot of diversity and inclusion and, you know, my parents are very unconventional, and I've always kinda gravitated to, maybe groups that are marginalized for whatever reason. And, I was probably naive being a woman in that field. I thought, you know, growing up, you know, the world's your oyster. You can do whatever you want. And it was only on leaving reflection that I kind of recognized, oh, actually, I was told to tone it down, not be aggressive, not to be too assertive because it wasn't taken very well, that that was actually because I was a woman and I was female in in that role. And that didn't really occur to me at the time. It massively frustrated me, but I didn't really almost put the 2 and 2 together that that's why I was having that experience. And, actually, the more confident I became, the more I was getting that feedback that that actually wasn't acceptable in my role. And I was confused by that because I was a defense lawyer. I'm like, isn't that what I'm supposed to be doing, being a challenger by night shift? Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: So is that is that the the system, if you like, not valuing strong women. It's they want women to behave in a feminine way, not in a a more masculine way. Is that was that was that the the challenge? Yeah. Absolutely. And I would Lulu Mintz: even have, you know, men, that I that didn't work for you know, in my firm, they were not my boss, etcetera, would intervene potentially or or feel that they had something to say about, say, conversation that me and a prosecutor were having in court. They would just, like, intervene or, you know, treat me like their employee or or you shouldn't say that. We know you should back off a bit, etcetera. And, you know, I would always, again, stand stand up for myself within that. But, you know, again, it became really frustrating, to do any, you know, have having to bring a certain energy to deal with that on a daily basis, was actually quite exhausting. Joanne Lockwood: A classic mansplaining. Absolutely. Absolutely. And as we Lulu Mintz: know, women in those positions tend to leave before, you know, those promotional I was head of department. I left before partnership, and that is the classic moment of when women leave. I think often it's looked at of women having children and things like that. There's so it's so much deeper than that. I don't have children. That wasn't the reason. Yet, you know, there's lots of women I know that that leave for all sorts of reasons that they can't necessarily articulate at that time. Joanne Lockwood: So you're a rebel at heart. And as you said to your you came from a rebel family. Your parents are kind of nonconventional. You spent a lot of time growing from Brighton, which I think Westfield would would describe as a fairly nonconventional place to live as well. So you you found freedom by by moving as well, didn't you? You relocated to the west country? Yeah. Yeah. We've always actually, as a family come on Lulu Mintz: holiday down to the west country and St. Ives in particular, you know, for the artist scene. It's always quite a bohemian scene. The surrealist artists used to come to Cornwall as well. So, again, I've always felt quite an affinity with the West Country, and we do as a family. So, but that's quite a recent Lockwood, but I previously lived in Manchester, London, and and things like that. But, yeah, I grew up with a lot of, artistic inspirations. Frida Kahlo, Carlo, Lee Miller. I don't know if she's familiar to you as a surrealist photographer, and, a lot of music as well. So I'm super grateful for that. I guess my rebelling against my parents was to get a conventional job, which was interesting. Joanne Lockwood: So a double rebel. So you're probably against the rebels. Lulu Mintz: Exactly. Yeah. We're well in with my father because he's a musician is to like rubbish music, and that would really upset him, you know, like ordering the Backstreet Boys because they run a music shop. So, you know, ordering something terrible. Again, conventional would be would be a form of rebelling. So, you know, it was a kind of flip on its head for rebellion in that sense. Joanne Lockwood: Excellent. So you you say you've, run retreats. Tell tell me a bit more about those retreats and and what goes on. What's the purpose? Yeah. I first when I started coaching, Lulu Mintz: you know, again, it was a real heart based decision. I wanted to run a retreat for the women that I coach in Morocco because, again, Morocco is quite unconventional. I love it. And, so I hosted my first retreat in Morocco in 2017, which was amazing. I didn't make it easy for myself, however, you know, because just even, you know, paying the re ads and, you know, it it it's not on on home turf. It's a very different place for for those people that have been to Morocco, although a beautiful place. And, yeah, I really wanted to create that that space for women. You know, again, it it has many women don't have the luxury of time. I was reading an article the other day and doing a lot of research about this, particularly with coronavirus and the pandemic. You know, again, a lot of childcare, housework, etcetera, has fallen on women within the home having to drop their businesses. And an article saying, you know, that women don't haven't previously had the luxury to develop their genius, as, say, you know, Carl Jung, Sigmund Freud, etcetera, you know, really, really had this gift of a luxury of time. And I've noticed over the past 5, 6 years working with women, they don't often feel that they deserve time either and retreats really give women that that space and time, you know, over 72 hours, 3 days. And I I've noticed over the last 5 years hosting retreats that the women I work with really come back to me and go, it was the retreat that changed absolutely everything for me. So this year, I may be crazy, but, you know, being a rebel at heart, we're doing 3 retreats in post pandemic. Fingers crossed we can do them, but we've had to that we've had to move previously. And, know, we work with such incredible women that are happy to do it whenever we'll do it later date. And it hasn't been you know, there's been a lot of admin with it, but it's well worth creating that that space for women to work on themselves and their businesses. Joanne Lockwood: It's a really interesting thought where you say women often don't feel they have the time for themselves and or they don't make time because there's always this kind of self pressure to keep going, to find something else to do, and stopping almost feels like you're letting somebody else down, wherever that may be, your family, your work, or or whatever that may be, your children, and and stopping and taking time for yourself is really hard thing to do. And certainly women who are maybe entrepreneurs or in very busy lives and careers, it's really hard to stop, isn't it? Yeah. It is. And I think, you know, as Lulu Mintz: women, we feel super connected, don't we? That it's that it's that connection to everything and everyone that to disconnect and focus, you know, on ourselves or on that one thing, whether you've got children or not, can can feel like a much, you know, harder thing to do. And, you know, as you say, it's it's giving yourself permission to actually do that which is really important and, educating women to do that because, actually, when women burn out, everyone else around them is affected because of that massive connection and, you know, nurture that we have for for others. Mhmm. Joanne Lockwood: Because, certainly certainly, if you like, the home admin side of it is everlasting, isn't it? Where it's there's always something to do, and I think where we're not careful, we almost feel because we're the buck stop for a lot of lot of lot of activities, a lot of tasks. And if if we don't do them, nobody's gonna do them. And if if we take a time out, they're still there when we get back as well. So we we feel this kind of must do little and often all the time, all the time, all the time. And even taking a break and having half hour in front of the telly just zoning out of reading a book, often you have to make that time that, because it doesn't come natural. I'm certainly experiencing that myself. Yeah. Lulu Mintz: Definitely. And there's a lot of talk, you know, now, isn't there? It's quite trendy to talk about self care and and, you know, things like that. And it really is a personal journey for every everyone and every woman in particular because there tends to be more of a battle with that. And, you know, it really does self care and takes some doing. We Joanne really focus and think it's about the being, which it is, but it takes some doing. And I often say to clients, you know, if it's not in your diary, it's not going to happen. So for me, no one messes with my yoga schedule and that goes in my diary first before anything and anyone that goes in my diary because then I know I can serve everyone and, with what they need at a much deeper level when I have filled myself first. And I learned that the whole way by being a defense lawyer for 11 years. And, again, I wasn't just with my clients. I wasn't just their lawyer. I was lawyer, secretary, mother, social worker, PA, you know, you name it, whatever they needed, you know, which is why I was successful when a popular lawyer is choice for many of my clients who were in and out of the criminal justice system. But there was not a lot left for me by the end of that. And it took me some recovery time. Joanne Lockwood: Jo when you're working with your female solopreneurs, leaders, what are the biggest challenges you find that they're that they're trying to tackle in their life? Is it is it just imposter syndrome and limiting beliefs, or is there is there far more than that? Oh, far Lulu Mintz: far more than that. But, you know, in a good way, I you know, some of it is really positive as well. Lack of time is massive. You know? I create really powerful self study courses for women that are really short and, you know, short and bite sized deliberately that you could take 5 minutes today, 10 minutes today, or just do it once a week and and still make progress. But, again, this lack of time thing is massive. Lack of confidence and lack of permission to themselves to really actually do things in the way that they may want to do them and to do things differently. Again, women can tend to be conditioned to not break the rules and to, you know, follow things and do more of what they are supposed to in inverted commas. And I can't remember. My background's in, criminology as well. So I think it's called double deviance. So if we a woman breaks the rules, it's not only the rule she's broken. It's the it's it's the rule of being female and a woman that she's broken as well. So there's there's a double punishment, if you like, and that's evident in the criminal justice system and it's also, you know, evident in corporate positions, etcetera, if a woman doesn't follow follow the protocol and the processes. So women can spend a lot of time double checking themselves to make sure they've got things right, which is exhausting, ultimately. Imagine all that time and energy that could be spent you know, on on doing other things instead. Joanne Lockwood: Did you believe that's nature or nurture? Is this how women are socialized from a young age, to be compliant, to be rule protectors of rule setters? Yeah. Lulu Mintz: That age old question. I've spent my lifetime studying that nature or nurture question, I think. And and I really do think, you know, I I think it's a mixture of both, but I definitely think nurture is really, really strong. And, you know, but also nature, it's been proven more and more that we carry ancestral trauma from from, you know, our ancestral line of, you know, previous experiences that that family members and staff have have had. So I find that fascinating and really, really interesting. And then even when I look at my own upbringing, which I said is very unconventional, I've got 2 sisters, you know, very, very female dominated family, if you like. Me and my sister were talking about the other day the films that we used to watch and some of the children's books. We used to read, My Naughty Little Sister, and she's reading it to her daughter at the moment, who's only 5. And she said, I'm horrified that the the boy Harry is just being a boy, and the girl is being very rude and very naughty. So she's like, Ayla's loving it, but I'm actually wanting to stop reading it to her. We used to love those books. Joanne Lockwood: It's interesting how, generations Joanne, and we look back at some of the stuff that we're now feeding our children in horror around the stereotyping and how we that yesteryear almost, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It is. And I don't know. Do you Lulu Mintz: remember Barbara the Elephant? Did you ever used to read those books? Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I remember Barbara Lisman. Yeah. Yeah. But I went to Lulu Mintz: yeah. I went to a talk, an International Women's Day a couple of years ago in Brighton, and there was a chef, and I can't remember her name, but she opened the cannabis kitchens in Brighton and she she'd come out of banking and she was saying that, you know, when she entered, you know, the the chef industry, that women were cooks and men were chefs. And I was like, oh my god. I was sitting there going, I've never thought about that before, but, yeah, maybe that's right. And then I went to my friend's house. We were trainee lawyers together. She's got 2 little boys, and I was reading her older little boy who was 3 at the time, Barbara the elephant. He comes over to me with this book, and Barbara the elephant is doing, like, a cooking thing in this book. And at the end of the book, I get to the last page. I had a fit by it, but the boy elephant barber got a chef's hand. All the girls got pink bows. And I said to her, I was like, Melanie, this book, what on earth and what is this showing the boys? And she said, oh, god. I've never really thought about it. And, you know, that, again, that was a book from our childhood. All the front cover was wrinkled. You know, it was a really old book. So, again, we had this kind of conversation of of of, you know, those subtle, subtle messages which are everywhere despite parenting that might be different. I mean, even classics. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Paddington Bear. All of the main characters in Paddington Bear are men who are going out to work, and the women are either activists with banners or posters or or at home. It's Mhmm. Those classic stories are bought were written and created at a time where that was the gender norms. And Yeah. We've been feeding ourselves this for generations. Yeah. And I think Lulu Mintz: it's Disney Yes. I've looked at some of the Disney cartoons. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's not I think Frozen was the first Lulu Mintz: film where a girl was rescued by another girl, I e, her sister. And I think the now there's some there's some there's Brave and Moana isn't there, and there's a good few ones. And my 2, older nephews were saying to my niece the other day, I think it was at Christmas or whenever it was, of she wanted to watch Brave. And they were like, oh, no. It's rubbish. And I I went they always know I'm always on the rant, about something like that. I was like, there were not films like this for girls. We were young. She's watching it, You know? Blah blah blah. And, yeah. But, you know, it feels it feels good that they're they're quite naive to that. But at the same time, we do kind of educate them that, you know, women haven't always had this privilege and and these wrong role models. You know, it's so important that we have those role models, isn't it? Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. Yeah. I I do get a bit frustrated sometimes with Hollywood that the the female led action movies are women just trying to be men, trying to live up to male stereotypes. And, this I think Charlie Sewan did a couple of really good ones, Atomic, I can't remember the name of the film. I was wondering, Atomic, wasn't it? And, Atomic Blonde. You think, wait. You're actually watching it. It's just Atomic Blonde. Yes. It was a feat strong female character lead, but she was really not behaving as, well, as a as a as a as a woman in that well, just behaving as a man. It was that I the it was it was an action hero as a woman rather than a woman being an action hero. And I think that was that's what the difference we gotta change is that we we create new genres and new new roles for women that are women being women, not women acting like men. That's Lulu Mintz: that's part of the problem we're trying to fix. Yeah. I think that's that's, you know, the real challenge. And, again, I felt in the legal profession, you know, climbing the banks as it were, and it's no disrespect to any of the women that were kind of ahead of me, but, again, I saw that. I didn't feel particularly supported by by women in the field, unfortunately. But bar 1, who wasn't at the same firm, but, you know, there there weren't those role models for me. And I was kind of looking for women, you know, who are partners and things like that and thinking, oh, are you sure that's a fit for me? So I really felt like I didn't really have anywhere to go with it. And I I have a course actually. It's it's called the 24 principles to feminine success, and it's something that I've taught for around 5 years. And it was actually really hard for me to articulate at the time. I just kind of had a download about it. I was like, oh my god. This is really important. And I I still teach it now. It runs through g level radio, the podcast, and, you know, it it's really about how we introduce more feminine based principles into positions of leadership whilst honoring the masculine ones as well because we all have masculine and feminine energy, but we've been taught that more masculine based principles and more powerful than the than the feminine ones. And I often say the suppression of women also has equal to the suppression of the feminine and feminine based principles which we really need to introduce back in to bring balance and harmony in. And when I started looking at those principles, I was like, this is the reason the world's such a mess. You know? Climate change, you know, poverty, all of this stuff. But at the same time, it's very important to not, you know, really blame the masculine principles as well because then we perpetuate more of the same problem. Joanne Lockwood: I think I was watching on telly last night or the other night about this role of they now have a role on film sets and TV programs called the intimacy coach that helps define the boundaries and barriers between between actors on on set and what is they can they they negotiate, what is appropriate or inappropriate for their own personal space. And I I was like amazed that we're we're down to that level of now, having to help women create these boundaries because they're often put in uncomfortable situations by male directors or male costars or whatever it may be. And, it's really interesting to see that the intimacy coaches, they're an integral part of filmmaking. Oh, wow. That's that's that's Lulu Mintz: incredible. But what does that yeah. That's quite horrifying what that shows in terms of in terms of it's funny. Someone put something on LinkedIn. It was a good couple of years ago now, but I think it might have been around the me too movement of, you know, business networking when we were allowed to be in the same room, which we haven't been for quite some time, you know, to is it acceptable to give someone a hug and a kiss, you know, and all of that. And it's such it's so important we're having those conversations, but then it's kind of I don't know. It's kinda sad at the same time because I'm I'm not if there were if there were too many rules put in, you know, that that's just as human beings, we're not that linear. It really is, you know, but but for me Oh. Part of that is, you know, I'm very empathetic Jo I can read a situation like that and and know what's appropriate and what isn't. And I appreciate that a lot of other people don't and they find that more difficult. And, again, I only leaving the legal profession really saw that as a massive strength that I have because I watch, you know, other lawyers and people, and I could see a situation that was gonna escalate over the in the courtroom. You know, by the way, the lawyer was talking to the client, etcetera, but I was never told at school or when you look at skill sets and things of, like, oh, you're massively empathetic. You're really good at tuning in with people, you know, going straight straight in with what they need because, again, they're more more feminine based. It's a more feminine based skill set, you know, traditionally, and it's just not something that's valued. So why would you why would you be told that? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's interesting. The hug and the kiss is a greeting, isn't it? That awkward social situation with it. Is it one kiss on the cheek? Is it 2? We'll be going French and doing 3 or that that that hug that lasts for half a second too long? And you you Joanne wait feeling kind of like, oh, that was a bit bit unnecessary. Yeah. Yeah. And then creepy feeling you get sometimes. Lulu Mintz: Yeah. We've all been there. A little bit. Yeah. Well, I I had it, you know, historically with some of my, you know, criminal clients, bless them. You know? And I had a really good relationship with many of my clients because they were regulars. You know? But I I remember a few of them in slow motion, you know, getting a a good result in court. And then a client, you know, sometimes they weren't very well washed and, you know, drug addicts and things like that that that wasn't the physical contact. It was something I really didn't want or need. But, yeah, it was it was in slow motion. I remember a few of that. So it's it's difficult, isn't it? But now we've got coronavirus kind of elbow bumps and and things like that. But as humans, it's so important that we do need physical contact. Maybe not in a business setting, but then in it was some business relate I've had those business relationships with some people like that and not others. It's it's all about us learning to read situations and and communicate, really. Communication's key. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I do recognize that subtle physical contact is a way of creating a bond, is a way of showing, understanding affection wherever it may be, but some of it is is steeped in patriarchy, isn't it? That that that that touch of the elbow, that press in the back in the small of your back, you first type type, gesture. Some of those are are very patronizing in a way and reinforcing male power, male privilege, and it's quite unless you unless you step back and and see it and have experience at some at some point and be aware of it, you just think it's polite societal thing, but it is reinforcing that that power imbalance. Yeah. It really is. Lulu Mintz: And I remember again me always being a challenge when I was only a trainee lawyer in London. And one of our trainers, he wasn't a partner at that point, but with one of the other trainees, tapped her on the head. And I you know, we all used to go to the pub together and things like that. And I was like, don't you know, because we were friends as well, and I always had a bit of a big mouth. But I I was like, don't, you know, tap her on the head like she's you know, and I went off on one about it because, again, I didn't like what I saw because it was kind of, well, you know, you and, you know, it was quite a while ago, I guess, I entered the legal profession. But not that long ago, it there were all sorts of comments of, I washed you down there, all of that kind of stuff, which was so inappropriate, but I became so used to it. And then you build a certain, like, barrier around yourself. You know? If I was probably at times more serious than I needed to be and because I had to or felt like I had to get control of a situation so I wouldn't become, as a young female, the butt of all the Jo. I wanted to be taken seriously. So, you know, it's, you have I felt like I had to bring a certain amount of energy into a room to ensure that happened. And, ultimately, that exhausted me after 11 years. I was, just exhausted of doing it all the time. Joanne Lockwood: That's the bringing your whole self to work sort of metaphor, isn't it, where you have to put this mask on, you have to wear this suit of armor, and you can't be the relaxed, real you because you've got to think about what's going on around you all the time. Yeah. You have. In the last 2, I wanted to leave for about Lulu Mintz: 2 years. I knew I knew I felt there was a whole world of different things going on out there and the legal system's quite archaic and old fashioned. And I felt I'd go to my office in the morning and pick up my files caught and I felt this, oh, here it goes. I could suddenly become aware of this kind of energy that I needed to this mask, this armor I needed to put on to deal with the day ahead. And, you know, not forgetting you know, I'm not just blaming, you know, male lawyers, police officers. You know, it's a very masculine environment. Not to forget, I was dealing with, you know, rapists, murderers, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So I I had the whole I was going into I went into my first prison at the age of 19, very patriarchal institution, you know, the the way they're designed, etcetera. Jo, you know, but it really did did have an impact. And as I said, I'm naturally empathetic and very sensitive by nature and all of that. And I'd even forgotten that about myself because I'd had to, you know, keep all of that away from me. Joanne Lockwood: So you you said when we're chatting, earlier on that you're a feminist, a rebel feminist, and I'm assuming you're a 4th wave feminist. It's around equality for all, not this is not around a protest. This is about creating equitable spaces so that gender norms are kind of erased, if you like, and and everybody for creating a society that's fair and equal for all. Is that is that how you see it? Yeah, absolutely. It definitely is how Lulu Mintz: I see it and I, you know, we can't solve a problem with the same thinking that created it. So, you know, I'm I'm very and that's why I'm very passionate as well about bringing in more feminine based principles in terms of, you know, I see inclusivity and oneness is a very feminine based principle and and a more masculine principle is division and separation. But that has its purpose. Right? We need to divide and separate ourself to identify what thought is ours compared to someone else's, etcetera. But when we live in a world that values that more than the inclusivity and the and the oneness, you know, then we get disaster that we we we've kinda been facing for for a long time. So, you know, that inclusivity does still include men. You know, they still need to be included in the conversation. And that's why I always say, you know, every every she rebel, that's my version of feminism, you know, wants freedom not just for herself, but for everybody else. And, you know, it's really important because we're seeing a lot at the moment. We're talking a lot about diversity, but what I'm really not seeing is inclusivity of diversity of opinion because that is just not allowed right now. It's you're either Brexit or you're not. You're either pro getting the the corona jab or you're not. You know, that's all division and separation. And when we get too much of that, you know, we're never gonna solve these problems. We really need to respect and and be in you know, create safe spaces for conversations where people are entitled to have an opinion and to have a different value system to you. Like, be open to that. It's really important that we can do that. Joanne Lockwood: How do we get men to step up? When we saw it around, the tragic killing and murder of Sarah Everard and the, the heightened awareness of violence against women and girls, and then the hashtag not all men started. But then, yes, but it is all women. It was kind of the retort. We have I mean, I've been at events which talk about promoting women in leadership, creating gender equality in the workplace. And I was on a panel in San Francisco looking out into the room in this this session around advancing women in organizations. And there was out of 4, 500 people in the room, there were about 8 men. So it was women attending these forums to promote gender equality, not the men. And, you know, I'm a great believer that you have to involve the incumbent, the person with privilege or or or hold the keys if you like in this conversation. So whilst we as women talk about it, if we're not involving men, we can't make progress. Lulu Mintz: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so difficult. I think it's, at the same time, exclusion is the key to diversity. That's I can't remember who who made that quote as well because people say to me, why do you just host retreats for women? And and I'm like, because it's a very different conversation that happens when when women come together and actually, you know, there there's not been many platforms for women to do that, and, many women can learn very differently in in a different setting. And what I've noticed is and and we definitely need to include more men in the conversation. And there was a post of mine actually on LinkedIn the other day and there was lots of men commenting and I was talking about feminine principles and it was great to see. I really don't think, you know, more corporate based men would have understood that even 5 years ago. So there's really an an an opening with that. But I feel like one thing as well that I would really love to see when men are included in the conversation because I see this time and time again is is often you can have that say, you know, there's a room full of 40 women. And this was an event I was at the Canadian embassy with a coach that I work with, and she was talking about women and our access to capital in business. Around 40 women in the room, 2 men. The voice of 1 guy was around 25% of that room. I couldn't even go and speak to that person when we were networking afterwards because I was quite furious because I was like, this is a platform for women to vocalize how they feel about accessing capital and funding for their business. It's a room for them to vocalize how they don't feel that their voices are heard. It's a room for them to vocalize they've been told to deepen their voice to be taken more seriously. You know? And and he did and I I also, again, me being massively empathetic, felt super sorry for him. Power dressing. Yeah. Exactly. Sorry for him that he didn't even realize because he's so used to it. Mary Beard talks about this, you know, of we see authoritative speech as male, that he came in and and he had the right to that room. That's how he felt. Came in in the suit. He had the right to that room. He had the right to the opinion. He had a voice that deserved to be heard. And, you know, so we we do need to invite men into the conversation, but we also need to make sure that the women's voices is are still heard within within those rooms. That's the biggest key. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, it's it's often, it's like criticizing the the lion for eating the antelope. It wasn't actually that man's fault. That was how he was bred, bought up. That's how he he's had to fight in a man's world to always be told to get your point across, be assertive, speak up, express your views, and fight your corner. And men don't think in a way where they they they listen first, understand the room, and then talk later. They feel they've got the right to have that opinion, because that's how advanced in a male's in a man's world. Yeah. That's their Lulu Mintz: that's their birth fight. So don't criticize the lion. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. That's their perception. That's what we've changed, how we nurture Joanne Lockwood: our young boys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Lulu Mintz: Absolutely. It's, yeah. And, Mary Beard, I don't know if you've read Women in Power. You know, she talks about odyssey and, you know, coming back from war and, you know, the mother comes down and wants to say something, and the little boy sends her away. Go away, mother. This isn't a place for you here. You know, we we've grown up with this, you know, Roman Greek literacy running through so many things. And, again, that's another subtle message that that has been there for such a long time. You know, and that that's even a woman in the home, let alone, basically, Jo actually on the wall or the war zone and and and all of that kind of stuff. So, you know, and I really do I've got a a self study course, which is called the 3 keys to self actualization, which is around self securitized, self authorized, and self express. And I'm yet to take a woman through that process Jo matter where she is on her journey, even if she really is empowered, that hasn't had major breakthroughs of, you know, the because as women, that conditioning of security comes outside of you, authority comes outside of you, and it's not really okay to fully express who you are and what it is that you've got to say because there there's that subtle message is there somewhere. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, yeah. I've I've lived a life of of 2 perspectives, socialized most of my life in my previous perspective for 40, nearly 50 years. And my wife and I are still trying to rewrite the boundaries or rewrite the rules in our relationship. And despite our best intent, we still have kind of gendered or stereotypical roles within within our household. And if it requires muscle or carrying, it tends to be my job. If it involves driving, it tends to be my job. If it if it involves more empathy or birthday presents or birthday cards or things like that, that tends to be my wife's role or primary role. And we don't have a problem with it. It's just how we've how we've grown up together. But we're trying to rewrite some of the rules so that I don't feel excluded from some of her traditional, Lulu Mintz: gendered roles in the home, if you like. And I don't want her to feel Joanne Lockwood: excluded from getting involved for some of the things I used to do, and it's trying to share that out. But I off always often find we we often thank each other for doing things, and it's I think I I don't want to be thanked for taking the bin out. It's my role as well. It's kind of we we're sharing, and and we're sort of getting used to the idea of it's not your role. It's not my role. It's just a job that he's doing. And then whichever one of us does that, it's not about thanking. It's it's it's acknowledging that that that I just got on and did something that needs to be done. And it's a real challenge to to try and rewrite that gendered rule book Yeah. In a relationship. Yeah. Yeah. No. Lulu Mintz: Definitely. It is. It's yeah. And I think, you know, that's why I do love as well. You know, I practice lots of yoga and definitely spiritual sides to me and what I do and what I teach, you know, in terms of that, you know, masculine and feminine energy that, you know, it can change. It can flow. We can flux. You know? We we can it is fluid. Right? It's not it's not it's not a structured system thing that that society has tried to condition us, to to believe it is. And, you know, that that can make relationships even more beautiful in terms of, you know, find finding that what that what that looks like for each individual and then each, you know, relationship, coming together is is really, really powerful. And, yeah, I have, like, my some feminine flow days, and then I have my more, like, structured, you know, gotta get shit done kinda day. Sorry. I swore, rebel at heart. And, yeah, you know, and and really tune in with with where I'm at and how I'm feeling. And, you know, I think it's really important that we we we really start to do that. Joanne Lockwood: Essentially, you you used, a colorful word there. Does society still get shocked by women using expletives and swearing? Is it kinda seen as a kind of I don't yeah. I think they do sometimes. It's not. As a man kind of go, yeah. I'd Yeah. Good. That's Lulu Mintz: alright. That's all. Well, and even, you know, my dad being so open minded, he would say to us and my 2 oldest sisters, Jo it's not very ladylike yet. He swears like a trooper. So, you know, we kinda like we learn it from you, dad. So, you know, but yeah. No. I do I do think it's I mean, I swear on my podcast, but it is called She Rebel Radio, so I don't know what your rules are. Joanne Lockwood: I don't have any rules. This is not a a PG show or anything like that. This is just is is aimed at business, and people say what they wanna say. No. I don't have any rules. If if you want to say shit, you say shit. I mean, let's avoid some of the the the big the big nasty words that What was your name? Graham Norton. It's okay on here, I think. It's probably Lulu Mintz: the wrong thing. To know. I know. Yeah. And the interesting thing about that word, shit, as well was it's quite a I I, with coaching, I'm a multiple brain coach as well, which is head, heart, gut. That's quite a guttural word, which is a lot where we we place a lot of our identity and, all of that kind of stuff just as we were talking about that. Oh, you know, this is male or female. Is it acceptable in in certain, you know, groups that, yeah, it's an interesting point. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, I often use, bullshit, as a as a as a phrase or or term when I'm talking about meritocracy, the bullshit of meritocracy, or I'm happy to call out bullshit of something, as as as all these sort of kind of business societal tropes reach out and go, hang on. That's complete BS. You know? It's it's not we we made those rules. We can change those rules. Yeah. It's a societal social construct. Yeah. Let's, let's not get hang up on that. Yeah. No. It's not just In fact, I I was saying I was saying bullshit in my in my own mind this morning. I was I was reading this article on the BBC website, a news news article around how everybody wants to return to the office, and that's what everybody wants to do. So then I started unpicking the article, and it was property managers. It was leasing companies. It was property it was all property companies who had a vested interest in setting this narrative that people want to return to the office. People need to go to the office to socialize. Jo. People don't use to go to the office to socialize. They need to come home earlier in the evenings. They don't need to spend 3 or 4 hours commuting so they have more home time so they can socialize at home. They can socialize in community. And we've we've we've decided that the business has evolved based on this paradigm, and this is how we've done it. Let's let's say, okay. One of the roots of socialization is working together. One of the one of the ways we can learn and nurture and coach each other is to be in the same room. But let's say the objective is to learn, nurture, and culture, and create socialization. Well, how could we do that that's not in the same way? We can give enrichment in different ways. We can create more local community hubs. We Joanne not spend that 4 or 5 hours burning fuel, sitting in traffic jams, trudging on the train, destroying our work life balance, eating into our family time, actually create a new paradigm that says, let's not propagate that BS as the only way of achieving those goals. And that's what I wanna see happen where people don't go, well, we gotta go back. That's that's the only way we can solve this problem because it's not. No. No. It really isn't. And I Lulu Mintz: think, you know, any article that says everyone wants x is just again, like, we are a diverse, eclectic mix of people. Like, what works for 1 person is not gonna work for somebody else. But, you know, I love that people have really had this taste of freedom that I, you know, myself, opportained when I left the legal profession coming up 6 years ago, I think, may maybe even be more, maybe even be 7 at the end of this year that I suddenly got this taste of freedom that I could go and sit down the beach and, you know, have my tea in the morning and have time for yoga and walk and, you know, really create space for myself. And during the 1st lockdown, I saw that beach kind of, like, fill up, which I was kinda horrified because I felt like it was my beach at 9 in the morning that all of a sudden everyone else had access to that. That I think what's not gonna change is that, you know, people really are seeing that, actually, freedom is a personal thing, and we really can create more of it if we don't follow these really archaic, ridiculous rules, which quite frankly were created in industrialization as well where we were sitting, you know, in factories churning out lots of things and, you know, the education system is very much designed to put us into the workplace and for us to follow the rules. And if humanity as a whole is really gonna evolve in the way that we should, we need to create a lot of more space for creativity. And, you know, as I said, the the hint there is space. We need space to learn to think differently, to have different conversations, and nurture a new way of being. And we're not gonna do that by sitting in offices for 10 hours a day and commuting for god knows how long as well. Joanne Lockwood: I like that. It's I'm a great believer in the rise of the artisan, the empowered individual working as part of a a team who can create. They have time to think, to create, to fail fast, to explore opportunities and ideas. Okay, not every job role supports that level of thinking, but we've gotta recognize that there are a lot of people out there who are creative. We've gotta think about a lot of people who are able to manage their own work schedule, their own work life balance, and we have to allow those people to do that. And I think when we come from this command to control presenters presenters and mentality, If I can't see you, I can't trust you. We've gotta try and break that and and reeducate our leaders to see people in a different way. I think that has happened over COVID, but I'm still worried that the there are hidden agendas of people who want to drive going back to the way things were as quick as they Joanne. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Financial, obligations. You know? We want we want the rail infrastructure. We want the the underground infrastructure. We want the the hot the the the the planes, all of these public transport systems. They would become superfluous if, if people didn't start using them again. All these road expansions we're doing, and people aren't driving as much anymore. So there are some invested interests in getting people to start commuting again. Yeah. Lulu Mintz: There are. And, again, I they they they come from quite patriarchal masculine roots. And it was once we need those things, because one thing we did see really flourish with lockdown, etcetera, is nature, you know, really started to heal herself. We saw people really connecting with nature for the first time, you know, in a in a long time. At the same time, when we're having, you know, more natural words deleted from dictionaries and replaced with, like, technological words and and things like that. So, you know, and people feeling more more connected to their home, and their families and and they are quite feminine feminine based principles and, you know, that that's really important that that starts to come in and we don't just go back to the old way of doing things. And if we don't and I'm really passionate about, you know, nature and all of that stuff, it's been a big, big part for me in in moving, you know, forward and doing things differently. And we really need to start looking after that, you know, otherwise, it wouldn't be a very nice place for any of us to live. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I've certainly embraced my femininity in terms that I now see my strength as the people who are next to me and around me. Whereas before maybe I saw my strength as people who are beneath me. So so it's a very much I prefer that collaborative peer, real deep friends and sharing rather than that hierarchical, I I I need to achieve a status by and this is how I demonstrate my status with with stuff and big things and expensive things. It's now all about, now all about a more, I don't know, a more earthly understanding your place in the world, understanding how you how you could influence through collaboration, through generosity. Yeah. Through that interconnect. Different metaphor that I'm experiencing. Yeah. Through that interconnection Lulu Mintz: that we were talking about. And again, that's why and I think women flourish so much at our retreats because, a, we're all surrounded by nature. There's that we we have, you know, we don't have any more than 8 women, so there's that real, like, connected piece where everybody is heard. And, you know, when you compare that to more patriarchal systems and structures within business, you know, how much do we value when someone's asked to speak at an event? Oh my god. They're the speaker. Like, they're so prestigious, you know, etcetera. And I often say and and this probably might might not go down somewhat that well in some respects of, like, speaking's quite a masculine principle. Listening is a feminine one. And I will repeat, we all have masculine and feminine energy. But, you know, if we valued listening as much as we value speaking, again, how would things change? And I think that's starting to shift. You know? I know in coaching profession, we massively value active listening. And and and sometimes that entails not even fixing a problem for someone. There's there's a great compassion when you witness someone wherever they they may be at. That's kind of healing and helps people move through it itself. But, you know, we we don't say, oh, you know, we don't congratulate someone for listening very often. Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. Yeah, how often do we hear a leader say, this is the problem. This is how we think we've just solved it. What do you think? That's not that sets the scene for kind of nodding group think it doesn't really set the scene for, for thinking or challenging. It's when people get used to the idea of saying, well, this is the this is the challenge we're trying to solve. Who's got some great ideas? And then ask people what their ideas are. And then maybe as a leader, don't even speak. Don't don't give your opinion. It's you're there to collect that diversity of thought, input, that creativity, and set people set people on that on that path to to doing what they do. Otherwise, you might as well just have a a a company full of automont automatons or minions just doing your bidding all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, you know, asking asking those Lulu Mintz: powerful questions and and, you know, allowing people, as you say, has come up that creativity. And, you know, as a coach, I I do that frequently and, you know, clients that work with me frequently or over a period of time find themselves going, oh, can I have your feedback? Because I do give feedback. I'm I'm not a coach that, you know, doesn't give any kind of feedback and insight because that's, again, part of my power. But, you know, I I won't give it until they're ready, and they're they've they've gone through the the process that they need to go to by answering their own questions and, you know, moving moving that that forward because they always know the answer to the question. I don't. They do. And, you know, so Jo do people on teams and and things like that. If if you give them that space, again, the word space is so important because transformation happens in the space in between things. And if we fill it all the time with stuff, then, you know, things really can't move forward and move through. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think you also create an environment where you always feel you have to ask permission to do something. You always have to ask, am I right all the time, rather than just trusting your own judgment, trusting your own capability. And I think often we create these environments where that's the case, and I've worked in a fight where people constantly come into me saying, is this right? Or how do I find that? Or or can you tell me the answer to this? And I'm thinking, can you not do what I will do, which is Google that or or think about it for 10 minutes? And if you're not careful, you you almost, like, train people not to think for themselves. And there's a I came across this technique that is is colloquially known as rubber ducking. So instead of you're you're not allowed to ask someone for help until you've stood in front of a rubber duck and talked about the problem to this inanimate object. And then as a result of this talking to the rubber duck, most people can solve their own problem because they've spoken out loud. They're hearing their own thoughts. They're having to formulate their thinking to this plastic duck on the shelf. And, it's cut down in this organization that they're advocating for. It cut down the number of questions to to managers or to leaders. It increased empowerment, and and it creates a real change of culture where people felt they they could bring their own ideas and and then what they were saying that everyone has their own rubber duck, they buy their own duck, they put up their own shelf, And often at times of the day, you look around this office, and there's all these people just talking ducks around the office, and it's part of their culture. And it it creates that creativity. It allows people to think. And so often, yeah, if if you're stuck and you you don't know where to go, just buy yourself a rubber duck, stick it on the shelf, and talk to it. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think one of my clients was sharing that at one Lulu Mintz: of our retreats actually because everyone was saying that they were gonna get get themselves a duck. And I I find because a lot of my clients can come from quite corporate positions that, you know, and they're setting up their own business consultant coaching, you know, or doing something more creative. And, you know, again, there is a real struggle with making decisions, moving things forward, which, you know, as you know, you have to do when you're running your own business. I feel quite privileged that I've never really struggled with that because being a court advocate, I was also a police station representative, so I didn't have time to call someone and say, oh, what should we do about you know? And what what advice should I give this client? I had to do it on my feet all the time, which is a gift Joanne a curse because sometimes I can make decisions that are too quick and I haven't really thought it through. And and and I get frustrated if I haven't made the decision really quickly. I'm like, oh, no. I can't sit with this. I've gotta, but, you know, it's definitely served me served me really well to have that autonomy, which is probably why the more office environment and things I struggled when I couldn't do things my way that I was like, oh, what do you mean we have to, you know, you know, spend hours talking about it? I used to get really bored, and that's definitely personality type for me. But it's, yeah, it's really important that that we and we all so many of us, I had a story that I wasn't creative because my mom's an artist, actually. My older sister, you know, used to try and get me to draw things when I was 4 and told me it wasn't very good because she was kind of 12 and very talented. And I had this story because I couldn't draw. I wasn't creative, but we're all creative. You know, you're creating this podcast, I create my podcast, I'm, I create courses, I create retreats, I, you know, create so many things, I love to cook, all of those things. So, you know, really, really finding whatever lights, you know, you up creatively. Anyone who's listening is is really important to nurture that because creativity creates more creativity and and more of it. And and that's what we need more of. Joanne Lockwood: And that probably comes back to something you said at the beginning around creating space for women to have time for themselves. Because unless you have that time for yourself, that ability to to clear your mind, it's very hard to be creative when you're at the coalface digging and digging and digging or cooking and cooking or educating and educating, whatever you may be doing on a daily basis. That's time for you to just blue sky think to relax, just open up. That's the challenge, isn't it? It really is. And I don't know if you know aware Lulu Mintz: of the statistic. It's in the book Invisible Women, which says that 75% of the world's unpaid work is completed by women, which is huge. Again, as a criminal defense law. And that was a punishment handed out in court, unpaid work. It's a community sentence, mostly for men because there tends to be more men in the criminal justice system, which is a entire separate conversation. But when I read that statistic, you know, the amount of mundane tasks that women are tied up in, which is really preventing them from developing their genius. And I'm super grateful. You know, I don't have children, etcetera. But my mom actually, you know, she would really run my parents' business. She held the purse string. She made a lot of decisions and was a real role model for me for that. And one of her biggest, you know, amongst many other things was every working woman deserves a cleaner. She always had a cleaner. She was like, not only do I support another woman's business, because women tend to be cleaners. That's just the statistic. But, b, that really created the space for her. And, again, that's a conversation I have with a lot of clients. Like, you can scrub your toilet, but you can actually work on your business. Jo what what what which choice is it gonna be? And I know the pandemic hasn't helped me. I don't have, you know, allowed to have peanuts in the house and whatever. But, you know, it really is important for women, you know, wherever they're at, to have that conversation with themselves and go, actually, what of these which of these mundane tasks needs to be done by somebody else so I can focus on my genius, my evolution, my genius, what I'm here to do because that really is, you know, why we're here to create change. And you're not gonna do that by being too involved in the mundane. That might be your revolution. If it's just that, please do it. And that's Joanne Lockwood: why going out for a meal yeah. But that's why going out for a meal could be so special. You don't have to think about preparing it, shopping for it, buying it, planning it. You just turn up, eat it and then say, buy, and you deal with the washing up. And that's that's why it's such a a great thing to do is Jo take time out of your life to have a have a meal out because it's that's that's time that you would have otherwise had to spend doing that yourself. And I think that's that's why I would always say even if it's just fish and chips on the safe front, it's a way of breaking that cycle of here I go again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As you Lulu Mintz: say, that that important of breaking that cycle of of the mundane. We have to do, you know, things that we have to do, but breaking that. And as you say, if it's sit if you're sitting somewhere beautiful, having fish and chips on the beach, You've saved yourself the time of thinking about all of that stuff, but you've also, you know, hopefully creating that space that we're talking about. You know? I know when I feel stuck, I get up, I go for a walk, I go to the beach, I practice yoga. That's when my best ideas come. It doesn't come when I sit in front of my laptop going, right, Lulu is working. It's when I'm wandering around doing other things. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I completely agree. Oh, I can't believe it. We've been going for an hour, just over an hour. Wow. It's been such an inspirational and enlightening conversation. We I'm sure we could have carried on for another couple of hours without without a break. And now I really, in fact, I think you you kind of invited me to be on your podcast. I'm looking forward to maybe having a rematch and, and carrying on the conversation from me from my perspective. That'd be really interesting. But how can how can our listeners get in touch with you? So my Lulu Mintz: website is, LuliMintz.com, so that's, super easy to find. She Rebel Radio, the podcast is on all the usual platforms, Apple, Popin, Spotify. So that's super easy to find. And, loo I tend to be Lululemintz on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. So, yeah, either Lululemintz or She Rebel Radio, pretty easy Joanne Lockwood: to find. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time and your contribution. Absolutely amazing. And also a huge thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in, listening to the end. Thank you so much. And please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. Tell your colleagues. I'm sure they'd love to join in and listen too. Of course, I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up over the next few weeks months. So please do. If you subscribe, you'll get notified. Of course, if you'd like to be a guest, I'd love to have you on. So please email me to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And, of course, tell me if you've got any ideas or suggestions on how I can improve the show. So finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.