--- title: "Creating a level playing field so every human can be inspired" episode: 41 date: 2021-08-19 guest: "Mindy Gibbins-Klein" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/41-creating-a-level-playing-field-so-every-human-can-be-inspire audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-041/audio.mp3 --- # Creating a level playing field so every human can be inspired Joanne Lockwood speaks with Mindy Gibbins-Klein about what it really takes to create a more level playing field so more people can be inspired and, crucially, feel able to speak up. They explore how opportunity and access are often left to chance, and why intentional action matters in environments like conferences, publishing, recruitment, and media. Mindy and Joanne discuss allyship as a deliberate practice: noticing who is missing, creating space, amplifying voices, and taking responsibility for changing patterns that otherwise repeat by default. The conversation also covers how people can become more thoughtful about language and impact, including acknowledging mistakes, apologising, and building psychological safety through everyday choices. Both share personal reflections on acceptance, belonging, and connection, including Mindy’s experience as the parent of a transgender son and Joanne’s experience of rebuilding relationships through openness and dialogue. The episode ends with practical encouragement: focus on what you can influence, act with intention, and keep going even when traction feels slow—because small, consistent actions can compound into meaningful change. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Creating opportunities for inspiring change and equality. - 05:31 — Ensuring fairness in book world opportunities. - 07:40 — Passionate about diverse allyship and representation. - 13:13 — Make change by inspiring thoughtful individual actions. - 17:17 — Avatar: Beautiful film with deep, non-threatening message. - 19:58 — Shared gold card experiences and travel frustrations. - 22:42 — Adapt language; acknowledge others' feelings matter. - 24:29 — Learning respectful terminology for Northern Canada's Indigenous. - 30:42 — Realised underestimated impact on family and friends. - 33:35 — Communication breakdown caused daughter's anxiety and disengagement. - 36:54 — Belonging is natural; fitting in is stressful. - 40:12 — The bubble promotes psychological safety and awareness. - 41:41 — Inclusion is about fairness, respect, equality, dignity. - 47:11 — Changing leadership improves diversity and results. - 48:41 — Intent matters in speaker diversity recruitment success. - 51:04 — Privilege obscures structural disparities and inequities. - 55:03 — Focus on intentions; release control of outcomes. - 57:48 — Runs three companies on leadership, coaching, publishing. ## Key takeaways - The importance of creating equity without tokenism, and proactive measures like allotting a significant portion of opportunities to underrepresented groups. - Challenges of racial and societal inequities in achieving genuine inclusivity and how organisations can take gradual steps to address these. - The role of privilege and structural disadvantage in perpetuating exclusion, illustrated through metaphors like the "velvet drain pipe" and "stacked playing fields." - Strategies for making inclusion a deliberate effort, such as revisiting recruitment methods and ensuring diverse representation in organising teams. - Insights into the misconception of inclusion, highlighting that it's about fairness and respect, not unconditional inclusivity. - The power of good intentions in creating a "snowballing" effect for meaningful, long-term change in diversity and inclusion initiatives. - Personal reflections on empathy, acceptance, and the balance between fitting in versus belonging, drawing from both Mindy’s and Joanne’s experiences. ## FAQs ### What is the mission of the Above and Beyond Thoughtful Leadership Conference mentioned by Mindy Kibbins-Klein? The mission of the Above and Beyond Thoughtful Leadership Conference is to promote leadership without tokenism and to ensure a genuinely level playing field that inspires everyone, irrespective of their background. ### How does the podcast address the challenges of creating a level playing field? The podcast discusses the significant challenges posed by racial and societal inequities, highlighting the necessity for proactive measures to ensure fairness, respect, equality, dignity, and autonomy in inclusion efforts. ### What metaphors does Joanne Lockwood use to illustrate issues of privilege and structural disadvantages? Joanne Lockwood uses metaphors like "velvet drain pipe" and "stacked playing fields" to highlight the embedded nature of privilege and the cumulative disadvantages faced by underrepresented groups. ### How does Mindy Kibbins-Klein suggest tackling inequities within organisations? Mindy suggests taking gradual steps to address inequities at all organisational levels, comparing large-scale initiatives to “boiling the ocean.” She emphasises the importance of individuals acting with good intentions to create a snowballing effect for inclusion and equity. ### What misconception about inclusion is clarified in this episode? The episode clarifies that inclusion isn’t about unconditionally including everyone, but about ensuring fairness, respect, equality, dignity, and autonomy when making decisions about who to include. ### How does bias and judgement fit into the discussion of inclusion? Biases and judgements are natural, and the key is to manage how they influence behaviour and speech. Mindy and Joanne discuss ways to recognise and mitigate these biases to foster an inclusive environment. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people that simply had the conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 41 with the title, creating a level playing field Jo every human can be inspired. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Mindy Gibbins-Klein. Mindy describes herself as someone who encourages people to be more thoughtful in their conversations, interactions, and the way they show up in the world. When I asked Mindy to describe her superpower, she said, helping people hone down their message in a way that makes their heart sing as well as inspiring others. Hello, Mindy. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. It's great to be here. We've been looking forward to this for ages. I mean, we've both been busy over lockdown, getting times in the diary. Finally, we made it. Absolutely, absolutely thrilled to have you here today. Thank you. So we were talking earlier just before we started recording about this creating a level playing field so every human could be inspired. What does that mean to you? Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Well, I think most people would recognize the fact that we don't have a level playing field in various sectors, in various pockets of society, maybe the world as a whole. And I just feel that things could be different. You know? We like to not only see change happen, we wanna make change happen. And one of the things that we do here is we look to inspiration because, we work with a lot of people who want to inspire others, but they need to feel inspired. They need to feel that they're going to be given a Joanne, that their voice is going to be heard. Otherwise, they don't bother. So it's a real shame when someone has an important message for the world and they don't share it. And, I'm just looking to create more opportunities so good people doing good work can inspire as many people as possible. That's what we're doing. That's so Joanne Lockwood: true. We often find that when we're talking to people who are from underrepresented communities, minority faith groups, but even in many cases, women. We don't feel that we can speak out. We don't feel like we have a voice. We don't feel like we can be listened to. And you're so right. That almost de inspires us, doesn't it? It sort of makes us feel, well, why bother? That's a real challenge we've gotta overcome. Yeah. That's that's why I do the work I do. Yeah. And we certainly we certainly noticed it when, I mean, the George Floyd murder, the Black Lives Matter movement that developed. We had in the UK, we had the Sarah Sarah Everard murder, and we've talked about violence about women and girls is now becoming more prevalent. Do you think that people are becoming more inspired to speak out than they ever have? Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I think, as I say, people will feel inspired to speak out if they feel that that's gonna land in a way that that does something. And plenty of people can speak out nowadays, you know, since the birth of the Internet. We have millions of blogs. We have millions of podcasts, you know, millions of live streams. So a lot of people are speaking out, but it it's about what happens after that. So, you know, in the work that we do, if somebody wants to be a speaker, they really want audiences. They don't just wanna be doing a live stream into a black hole. If they wanna write a book, they wanna see it published and they wanna see it touch lives. So I really think that people have to see that level playing field or see that things are improving. You and I have been in the speaking world a long time. I used to call people out when they planned a conference, and it was all, pardon me, single white men. And, you know, many people have seen that. And, you know, when I called them on it, the organizers, they would say, oh, we never even thought. Never occurred to us. So I don't blame people for things they can't see. Right? I I you know, there's lots of things I don't see. But if you see it and you then don't do something about it, then I'm I'm here to stir things up. That's what I do. That's a Joanne Lockwood: really insightful statement about we can't change things we don't see. And that often comes from privilege. We we we look around our our own echo chamber, our affinity of people around us because we're mixing with people like us. We're having conversations that are similar to our own, we often find that we're not challenged by different thoughts, different viewpoints. And when we're thinking about, as you said, this conference is having an all white animal or people call it a Joanne. I heard that's kind of like the term these days. People just think that's the norm because they've never they've never seen a different way of doing things. Well, I work in the book world Mindy Kibbins-Klein: as you know, and I'm always looking at these lists of books you must read. And this started a whole movement. It it changed the direction of both my companies, and we have a stated mission, which we can talk about later, which came from seeing that something that wasn't right something wasn't right, and I wanted to make it right or go somewhere towards making it right. But I still see these lists coming out, and the phrase that we use in my companies is this, left to chance. Some people are not given a chance. There's different variants. But left to chance, most people are not given a fair chance. So we don't really want to see conferences and bookshelves and, you know, the media left a chance. I see it changing in in the broadcast media in the UK. I don't know if you watch TV, but I'm I'm inspired and encouraged by what I've seen. And I don't think it's tokenism. We can talk about it. I don't I really see high quality, excellent standards. So it's just they're trying a bit harder for equity, and that's the word that is driving me, driving my team insane. It's driving me to create equity wherever it doesn't exist. I think that's brilliant. Left a chance, Joanne Lockwood: most people are not given a fair Joanne, and and that's where we think about allyship, isn't it, where the responsibility of somebody who isn't of that group, community, or marginalized characteristic, the allyship is where we pick up that strain and our role as allies is to amplify, to spotlight, to create room, to create an opportunity for voice to occur so that it doesn't become chance. It becomes a deliberate act. And I always say that inclusion is holistic, active, and deliberate because if we're not being deliberate, we're not being active about it, it's chance. As you just said, if it left chance, it doesn't happen. And I love that quote. I'm gonna I'm gonna I can steal that, but I will accredit you for it. Steal with pride. Yeah. I I think so ally I'm I'm really passionate myself about allyship around that, whether that's around female allyship, whether that's about LGBT allyship, black allyship, or brown people, or non white people. Really passionate because you're right. I've seen a huge shift in the in the content of the BBC. I I tend to watch the BBC in the UK. I've seen a huge shift in the type of programs I was watching to mid last night on how children in the fifties and sixties who are black from the Caribbean didn't receive the same education. I've seen one recently around Leanne from Little Mix when she was talking about how she felt tokenized as a as a as a black girl on the on the crew, and she didn't have any any black support. It was all white support on the team. And they really are shining a spot right now on these inequities. And this, as you say, we don't see it. We can't change it. People just haven't seen it. And I am seeing the shift in BBC content. I'm seeing the shift in presenters, the shift in the themes. And, okay, it's you can you can argue it's not going fast enough or not going far enough, but I've definitely seen that. For the last 2 years, I've definitely seen the BBC's editorial and and production as really, really changing. Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Yep. That's exactly what I was thinking. I didn't mention the BBC, but that, you know, they're a they're a shining example for the rest of us. But we're you know, I see a lot of things on a smaller scale, as I know you do too. And we we're both inundated with requests and connections and, you know, information about events happening here, there, and everywhere. So we have the chance to look at the smaller events and what's happening more locally and the things that we can influence as well. I don't feel I have a particular influence, when it comes to BBC and, you know, who's reporting and what stories the producers choose. But I do have influence in lots of other areas. And for our listeners, you have influence. You may not realize it, but every interaction, every piece of communication, every time you open your mouth or type something, you you are choosing to use your influence. So it's really about choosing that in a more intelligent not not intelligent way, emotionally intelligent way. You know what I mean? Joanne Lockwood: But most people don't they just think it's it's not on their radar. I mean, I I I'm a I'm a DNI specialist. I talk about this all the time. I find myself sometimes you almost feel like you're an inclusion bore sometimes or people end up sort of saying, oh, I can't say that because you'll hear Joanne or that. No, no, you can say what you want, but just be mindful about what you're saying. If my presence makes you double think, then that's what I'm doing. I'm not policing you. I'm just making you think while I'm here. So maybe you should think while I'm not here as well. But that's that's the challenge. People don't think consciously around their language, their who they're excluding or tolerating or not really embracing. How do we how do we get people to sort of bring that to the front of their mind more? Because once you've had a a life changing moment, maybe an illness, maybe an accident, you suddenly become more self aware of the space around you. But most people just progress through life just being them and never considering others in the same way. Well, you Mindy Kibbins-Klein: mentioned that you mentioned what happened with George Floyd, and I read about that in a recent ebook that I've published, which, you know, is absolutely horrendous. And, you know, when I think about it, I still shudder. However, it did something good. It it, you know, shone that spotlight, as you were saying. And I do think it makes people more aware on a on a permanent basis, maybe not one incident or one story. But once you once you open the door a crack, you can then open it a bit more. If it's locked shut, you can't see anything. And I I think it's good to help people see things. I think the work that you do is phenomenal. All of us do ENI specialists. I'm I'm not even one. Why am I including myself? Okay. I've included myself. But the work I do is in that area. And what I have noticed is people are willing when you don't see it, you you don't even know what you're not seeing, as I said. But if you are thoughtful about the way you bring these things up, you remember your influence, and influence is a privilege, then you Joanne, in fact, bring people into the conversation. They I I think most people really do want to be a better person, you know, do the right thing. And, you know, I think it's great when some people are role models or, you know, just showing people the way in a gentle and thoughtful way with respect. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I was kind of personally a bit shocked about, yeah, the BAFTAs this year and and what and the and the revelation about Noel Clark. Because in the past, we've kind of associated this me too with older white privileged men. And as suddenly we've got a young black guy who is propagating the same things that we thought was really just just consigned to this the older generation. And I think that's really woken me up to the world that we've gotta keep being on top of this. We can't let it slide, can we? Mindy Kibbins-Klein: If there's something that you notice in the world, I'll keep it really broad, really high level, and it doesn't feel right, and you know it's not right, and you can do something to make it right or just to kinda shine that spotlight, then that's an opportunity. So, you know, I really don't think that you or I or any individual can create world peace or end world hunger or any of these massive things. But it does happen on a personal level with more people becoming thoughtful, becoming thoughtful leaders, doing their thing. Others will then see that and follow. And so each one is a drop in the ocean. And I I feel inspired by what I see. And, like yourself, I will always bring something up in conversation that, you know, makes people's eyes roll or whatever. But until we have that level playing field, that's what we need to do. The funny thing, though, is how threatened some people feel. Because when I've called out these creators of the book lists, and said, how come there's 38 men on this list and 37 of them are white, in fact? They get defensive. And, in the comments, you know, I'll get haters saying, well, you know, what about us? And, you know, I just say, well, you've had 200 years of white privilege. You know, come on. That's so true. Joanne Lockwood: People are afraid to give ground and it's not about ceding privilege. It's not about giving ground. It's not about losing anything. It's about winning by everybody else getting more. That doesn't mean you can say you get less. The old saying goes, it's not pie. It's just about creating more space, not taking your space. And it should cost you nothing to embrace and amplify somebody. It shouldn't cost you nothing to to think about somebody else's needs and feelings. It costs you nothing to to accept someone else's identity, language, or however they wish to describe it. It doesn't cost you anything. People feel that that they've got a it's challenging their own rights. We just we've gotta really change the attitude, but it's not about changing your rights. It's about giving people more access, more opportunity, less chance as you put it. So looking out for Mindy Kibbins-Klein: those opportunities. You know? If you don't see it, don't blame yourself for not seeing something. Again, what can you do to get out of the echo echo chamber a little bit? You know, I must admit, I like hanging around with people like me. However, there are so many different aspects to me that I can usually find a very diverse group of people to talk to, to hang out with. It's you know, that's one of the things that I've started doing personally. If this can help anyone, great, because, you will always gravitate towards people who make you feel good, people you have things in common with. But think about all the different aspects of yourself, your personality, your background, where you've traveled, your interests. So not just what you look like, your race, your gender, you know, lots and lots of things. And then by definition, you will be associating with people from lots of diverse groups. If for example, you know, I I love Avatar, the film, and that's why, you know, I could watch that every day of my life. And when I find another Avatar fan, I don't think, oh, hang on. She's not a white gal like me. I don't that would never occur to me. I just know that there's a kindred spirit there. Jo, and and yeah, you can get into all of all of Mindy's, favorite films and books and foods and yeah. So that's the kind of way that you can diversify yourself and, and your associations. Joanne Lockwood: As I was just to tell, I mean, I actually before I say, I I quite like Avatar. I think it's a beautiful film. There's so many different dimension so many different dimensions to it. And just the the romance, the the hate and stuff that's going on in there as well and the sort of the factions and and because they're they're they're blue creatures from another world, you can address this kind of racism effectively in that film when it's not not threatening anybody because nobody's identifying with the goodies or the baddies, really. They're just but they can see what's going on and how really it's all about love winning out, opportunity bringing it out, and just living peacefully. We don't need to create a conflict. So, no, I I agree. I think it's I think it's a great hidden message in there that maybe not everybody sees through to, but it is fantastic. But, yeah, I forgot what I was gonna say now. Diversity, yes. I agree. I'm in my mid fifties. I've had a fairly broad experience in my life. I've traveled the world a lot. I know you have to I've got involved many things. I've had several careers. I've had several careers and a couple of agendas. So I've I've had extra dimensions in that. So I I do find that I when I talk to people who you would believe weren't like me, actually, there's so many things we can find in common. And it's just a case of just keep probing, keep probing, keep asking. Okay. Right now, we've got it. We both like this. We both have done this. We've and we we often don't spend enough time finding out what makes us similar, do we? That's the I mean, I often use it as an icebreaker. Find out something you have in common with the person in in your pair, find that's that you both like. But we how often do we sit and have that conversation? We go straight into, we'd we'd we both have a opposing opinion on this. Let's get stuck on it. You're right. You're Mindy Kibbins-Klein: right about that. I think it is we're gonna use one of my favorite words now, which is intention. That it that is where it all starts. I write and speak about it all the time. We oh, how exciting. Somebody believed And the ice cream ice cream ad. I have, a real passion for people behaving in an intentional way. And it goes back to what I was saying about us not always remembering the power we have to choose to choose what our intention is and then act on that. And so if you go into an interaction with that question in your mind, what do we have in common, you will find things. So I I think this is easier than most people think. I don't know about you, Jo. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Jo. Completely. I mean, we we had a conversation just before we push press record, and it turns out you you were well, still are a gold card holder for certain airlines. And I said, well, actually, I was a gold card holder for certain airlines as well. And we lounge passes and all that. So suddenly, just by the fact we traveled a lot, we have a similar kind of gold card experience, if you like, and that we wouldn't have known that without that that brief conversation about, you know, what we've been doing for the last 12 months and some of the frustrations of airports. But you you do realize we've just Mindy Kibbins-Klein: alienated all of the, you know, carbon folks who are thinking, oh, you're adding to the problem. Joanne Lockwood: I I I haven't had a gold calf for 20 years. Well, it's so It was trendy back then. Yeah. Don't tell Greta. If Greta hears, then it's just I'm one of the baddies, yes. But no, I agree. We've learned. I mean, in the same way we were talking just now about if we don't know, we can't change. We didn't know about carbon. We didn't know about plastics. We were just blind to it because it wasn't a conversation people were having Or if they were, we weren't listening or it wasn't being said in a way we could hear it. And there's a whole load of things that we're probably still doing that we'll learn in the years to come that we should have done. And that's that's about trying to be waking up to everything, isn't it? Yeah. And and I think Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the awareness and the willingness to say, hey. I don't always get it right. In fact, lots of times I get it wrong. Here's here's my mistake or error of judgment. Here's how I want to put it right. And so if you don't mind, I'll apologize right now for using the word insane about 10 minutes ago. You maybe heard me hesitate before I said it, and there were 3 similar words I could have used, all insulting in a mental health sense. Jo, no, I'm really aiming to become more self aware and more thoughtful about these things. But, you know, we're gonna put a foot wrong. We're we're human. And that's what it's all about is, you know, acknowledge your humanity and and celebrate and give yourself a pat on the back every time you choose to behave in a more resourceful way. That's the best way I can put it. Every time you do something that is heading in in the way you want to be living your life, whatever that is, you know, more thoughtful, more caring, more inclusive, more generous, whatever, Just recognize that and give yourself that pat on the back. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Completely. And I I think we're setting ourselves an unwinnable target if we think we have to be right first time every time. It's about learning. It's about making mistakes. It's about, I also say, it's about being accountable. So if I know I've made a mistake, I apologize. I acknowledge it. I put that right rather than pushing it away saying, oh, don't oh, come on. Are you joking? Doesn't matter? It does matter to people. And in the same way that I've I've learned those certain words or phrases that people many people believe or or feel are racist. And I've looked up entomology, and I find some of the definitions questionable whether it is or isn't. But rather than argue with somebody about whether something is or isn't racist, I I say to myself, you feel it is. I I don't need to argue about that. I could I could use a different word or phrase. It doesn't it doesn't cost me anything to adopt my language. I don't need to argue whether it is or isn't racist. I just accept it is for you, in which case I will never use that phrase again. And I in the same way that because you care. That's because you care enough to do it. Mindy Kibbins-Klein: And so, you know, having the intention to care, having the intention to, you know, behave in this thoughtful and resourceful way, It's wonderful when people are enlightened like yourself and they care enough. And so we're here doing this work to open the doors. I say to enlighten, not that we're enlightened, but we're enlightening. And that's the work that that needs to be done. Right? Open the door and more light will come in. There was there was a real, fantastic quote I've just finished reading Daring Greatly by Brene Brown. And one of the quotes that I highlighted was I'm gonna paraphrase if I don't get it right, but we we need to appreciate the cracks. That's how the light gets in. I love that. Yeah. You know, we're not perfect. No. That's that's Joanne Lockwood: yeah. No. We're not perfect. I I also learned about, the indigenous people from Northern Canada and that part of the world and the term I used for years was offensive and it meant eat war fish or something. It was kind of a really stereotyping word and I've learned the new word Inuit is I think which is the the name we use now. I'm very conscious about making sure that I retrain my brain every time I want to use the old Lockwood, Remember the meaning, remember how insulting it is, remember how stereotyping it is, and choose the choose the name that they describe themselves by, that they respect yourself by. And that's all we can do, learn that new word, practice it, practice it, practice it. In your head, you get it wrong, you you catch yourself before it comes out. Yeah. And you you get in the habit of saying that. If you can catch Mindy Kibbins-Klein: yourself before it comes out, not like me a few minutes ago. I want to, I wanna ask you about the word woke because my PR company has a whole campaign going on. I was called woke. I had to look it up because I'm not very trendy or cool or anything. I didn't even know what it was. I was like, oh. And I started saying to them as we were planning our marketing for this year, I said, but I'm I'm happy to be woke. In fact, I'm proud to be woke. So our hashtag is now woke and proud. But what is your take on that? I see Joanne Lockwood: people banding around as an insult or a slur. It's almost like putting you down. Oh, that's just woke. It's like a snowflake, you're woke. Right. And I sat down, I Googled it like many of us probably did. I've researched the word and a phrase I love is woke is obviously woken, awoken is where it comes from. So the opposite of woke is asleep. Right. I don't want to be asleep. Right. I don't want to let the world pass me by. Therefore, I'm proud to be awoken Yay. Till we wake it up to the world. Jo I'm proud, if you wanna call me woke, in the context of aware, forward thinking, and not asleep at the wheel. Great. That's me. Great. That's how I see the word woke is it's a it's a state of mind to be aware of the surroundings, aware of language, aware of environmental and sustainability, aware of the future of the planet. I think that's that's the positive angle of woke. And, yeah, I'm woke. Woke and proud. Mindy Kibbins-Klein: So hashtag woke and proud, everybody who's listening. We'd welcome your support with this. I'm just gonna write that Joanne Lockwood: down. Woke and proud. Yeah. I'll make I'll make sure I tag that into the episode. The only person who uses that. I'm not I'm not the only woke and Mindy Kibbins-Klein: proud person on planet Earth. So we we need to, you know, we need to shift that. Woke is a great thing to be. Joanne Lockwood: It's not but but people weaponize it. They're trying to insult you by saying, you're one of the woke crowd. Yeah, I am. Yeah. Yes. What? Let me explain why. Yeah. I'm happy to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm not asleep. I'm not asleep, won't be asleep. Yeah. We met, what, 3 or 4 years ago at PSA, Professional Speaking Association meeting, didn't we? Yes. And I think when we met, you were telling me about your TEDx. Mhmm. You you happy to talk about your TEDx? I am very happy talking about Mindy Kibbins-Klein: the TEDx, which is now 4 years ago. Yeah. Jo, I mean, people can look it up. Shall I spoil the the ending? No. Joanne Lockwood: No. I mean, I remember the conversation we had initially about how you told me about the circumstances that led up. Yes. And how you how you became woke about Yeah. What you were talking about. You know what? Look. It won't be a surprise, but that Mindy Kibbins-Klein: that's fine. Look. I think it's still a powerful talk even if people know what's coming up. The thing is I have a son who's transgender, and it's not even a word I knew. Same as woke, the first time I heard it I thought what is it? But I had to definitely figure it out because this is my son. This is a member of my family. And my journey, the the point about the TEDx talk was to show that I don't feel that I made the most resourceful choices in my behavior. I didn't cope the way I would have liked to. I didn't act like the person I thought I was or the person I wanted to be. And it took me a while to come around to it and accept and unconditionally accept him. And, you know, it's so crazy talking about it now, but I had to oh, there we go. It's so different talking about it now. And I didn't want there to be, an association that there was something wrong with me or him or it wasn't. I used it as a jumping off place to talk about how when things happen or when something occurs to us, we feel whatever we feel, but we can choose to act. So, you know, it it didn't take me as long as as long as it could have done, but it was really about the message that came out of it. You know, if if you're not happy with your own behavior or something about yourself that you can choose. You can, you know, think about it. Be thoughtful. Do you want to learn, you know, unconditional love and acceptance? Is it possible that just if you look at it differently that that changes the way you look at it? Or do you need to change the situation or something about yourself? And that was my big realization. So obviously, my son was changing, you know, a big thing about himself, And it gave me the chance to change a lot about myself. It wasn't a situation I ever expected to be in. And thank you for asking me to talk about it. The talk has really opened so many doors for me to have conversations with other people, people from lots of different paths. So, yeah, that's that was my journey based on my son's journey. I Joanne Lockwood: I, obviously, I experienced that journey for myself the other way around. So I was the I was in the center, and I it took me a long while to realize the impact I had on others. So at the beginning, I came from a world where my echo chamber says, it's all about YOLO. It's your life, get on with it, you're going to live once. If everyone doesn't accept you, cut them loose and move on. So that is the peer pressure you get within my community at the time, basically saying, just push on ahead and don't care about anybody else's feelings. And what happened to me was I I started to realize the impact I had on those close to me, my my wife, my my 2 children, my daughter and my son, my mother, my father, my brother, and also the people who've known me for 20 or 30 or 40 years. I completely underestimated my impact on them. And I think in the same way, I became awoken to the needs and feelings of others where I had never probably considered those feelings in the same way ever in the past. And I had to accept that people needed to get to know me again. I couldn't just demand recognition. I couldn't just demand acceptance. I couldn't demand anything. What I found was I had to reestablish, reconnect. I remember saying to my wife probably about 4 years ago, in a moment of sadness, you'll never be proud of me again because we're going through that tough time in my life. I felt that I was an embarrassment. I felt like I wrecked her life. I felt that everything we were going through was really causing us so much pain. And I remember probably 3, two and a half years ago when she said, I'm really proud of you. And the emotional release that gave me was I'd I'd finally earned her respect and trust, and she was proud of me. But it took my daughter even longer. And my daughter's getting married in 6 weeks' time. And our relationship broke down to the point where she completely rejected me. She completely switched off about me. She wouldn't she wouldn't speak to me. She wouldn't return any of my calls. You know, to paraphrase, I was dead to her effectively, the way she put it. And we went out for coffee the other night. We reconnected about a year ago. We went out for a meal, coffee in Brighton Marina. And she wanted to talk to me about that phase of our life together and how she felt going into it and how I felt. And we both sat there McFlurry and we fried in the car park and we really just bonded. But I think what happened was we we we failed to communicate at the right point and that that failed to communicate. There was an assumption, there was a feeling, and my daughter had massive anxiety attack about addressing the problem. She knew she couldn't, so she walked away. And I'd never had a relationship with my daughter where she wouldn't talk to me. We had we had a kind of a a hot relationship where we were either at each other's throats and really dealing with things and scratching and screaming at each other and really working on the issue live and hot or we were hugging. And so I'd never had the point I never under I never understand her that she could disengage and bury her head in the sand and and hide the the problem. And I didn't know how to deal with that. And when we we talked about it the other night, we both unpacked that, discovered it. And I learned something about her that I never knew. And I completely empathize on her, know where she's coming from now, and I can actually see it as other things she did, how she used to hide her homework. Now when she was given the task of ironing, she used to hide the ironing in the cupboard until we found it a month later. So she was a very much a head in the sand person, and I I never saw that. And I think without that conversation and me waking up to her needs as an individual, I'd never discovered that. Well, Mindy Kibbins-Klein: again, you both had the intention because you both cared. So, you know, in in your case you could have said, oh, whatever, you know, living my life. And she, thank goodness, you know, realized that it was important to have to reconnect with you. You know, we, we're all on a journey and and it takes it takes 2 to tango as they say. And you can do what you can do, if anybody listening to us feels they're not accepted or they don't belong to bring that word in. You can only do so much. Again in the Brene Brown, it says Jo fresh in my mind, but I know I have to quote the study that she did, the difference between belonging and fitting in. I'm sure you know it. I'm sure you quote it yourself. You know, belonging is you being part of a group where they also want you there. And, and if you're not, then and you're not fitting in, you know, you want to belong but it's not happening, then you have some choices to make. And, you know, it does go back to what I was saying about, unconditional love and acceptance of the situation or yourself or them or change something about it. So we always have that choice. Joanne Lockwood: I I think for me, fitting in is forcing yourself into a hole where you almost fit, whereas belonging is that hole is just for you. It's your whole. You create space, and the space absorbs you around you where whoever you are, psychological safety, the showing up, The real you, but fitting in is you're always compromising that the edges are slightly you can't quite go there. You're slightly square edges in the round holes within. That's the fitting in. You're you're always worried about compromise. Well, it's just is that. It's fitting in Mindy Kibbins-Klein: trying to fit in is stressful, whereas belonging just is. You you know you have a sense of belonging when and, you know, it it's, it goes back to what I was saying before. You know, people have certain, I don't know what you call them, criteria or or just aspects that they are using to figure out if they belong with with someone else or if they're part of that group or if we have things in common. But if you expand your definition and your understanding of the whole person, chances are, you know, you you you do belong together in in, you know, in pretty much any situation. You can be with someone else. There's very few people that I couldn't form a connection with. And I and and I have connections with I was just gonna say a word that I'm not sure is right. I was gonna say psychopath. But I have no idea. I'm not a psychologist, and I'm not gonna say if the person I'm thinking about is 1 or not. All I can say is that it takes an extra effort with some people, and then I have a choice. Do I want to make that extra effort? And if I do and they don't, then we're still in a bit of a bind. But, yeah. It's it's it is fun. Is there empathy? Is there compassion to be truly Joanne Lockwood: do we truly give wanna give time to other people? And Yeah. Yeah, as you say, that word you use psychopath, the traits there are there is no empathy. There is no consideration of others. It's all about Right. Personal self, if you like. But can you have empathy for that person so that, you Mindy Kibbins-Klein: know, that this is a lot of the work I do is around, being thoughtful even when others aren't. Showing respect even when someone does not. And, you know, caring about someone even when it's pretty obvious they don't care about you. This is the gritty stuff that I like working with, you know, and and it's it's comes down to your intention and your choices. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You may know this lady as well. I met somebody at PSA, Official Speaking Association Scotland meeting and she was married to a multiple pagerist who obviously had, psychopathic, sociopathic instincts because they had no empathy for the situation they're causing. I remember her saying, it's like blaming the lion for eating the antelope. The the lion doesn't have feelings for the antelope. We may go, oh, that's so sad, but the lion is doing what it does naturally. So you can't blame the lion for doing what it does. So sociopath or psychopath, you can't blame them necessarily for being that way. That's just the way their brain is. See, it's not a blame thing, it's just acknowledging this person doesn't have empathy. I can't change that. I have to accept in the same way that I want them to accept I have empathy. I have to accept they don't have empathy, and we can agree to differ on that or I learned to manage that relationship. So I'm I have safety in my own feelings and they don't absorb me. Yes. That's right. So it's acknowledging that difference of character, difference of thinking different to them and not treating it as a they're bad, I'm good. Right. That's a bias again, isn't it? That's our own bias of kicking them. Whatever I do is good or whatever someone else does is bad. I have Jo, no, you're just a lion, I'm just the antelope. There's no remorse, it's just the way you are. If I let you eat me, you will eat me. That's fine. I know that. I'm stepping away now. Well, thank you for leading straight into one Mindy Kibbins-Klein: of my topics, because in the thoughtful leader, I talk about the bubble. And it's it is a very interesting concept because a lot of people are saying you shouldn't have yourself in a bubble, but the bubble is all around psychological safety. The bubble is all about you making sure that you are not being influenced, in a negative way by people who are in your sphere of influence. So we sometimes don't even realize who and what is influencing us. That comes back to, again, open your eyes, be awake, be woke, and see what's happening. And then if you realize that, you know, somebody is behaving in a certain way and you aim to have that thoughtful conversation and they're not playing, you have your choice. And step away is a valid response. So we do not have to engage with every single person in every single situation. That that's a lot of pressure that people put on themselves. However, it's it's a spectrum of a of a certain kind because if you disengage to the point where you're totally protected, you you feel totally safe, but you never talk to a living soul, and you don't leave your house, and you you know, that that's you're missing out on some really beautiful aspects of humanity, I feel. Maybe some people don't think that way, but, you know, I I think there's it's somewhere in the middle. What do you think, Jo? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I think you're right. And often when I talk to people in in in my inclusion and belonging work, there's this fear of getting it wrong. There's also this fear of it's too enormous. How do I include everybody? I say, well, actually, inclusion is not about including everybody. And it comes down to the idea if you've got the freedom principles, fairness, respect, equality, dignity and autonomy. So when you're making a decision about whether whether to include or exclude somebody, are you being fair? Are you given opportunity and choice and equality? Are you making sure that you're you're dignifying them with the with the way you're treating them? And if you could apply that test to every decision you make and you don't and you feel that somebody isn't for you, then you've done it fairly. You haven't you've been subjective. You haven't been unkind. You haven't been manipulated and went on that. So that's the test I would use. And when we think about in the recruitment process, you can't hire everybody. So as long as your recruitment process is fair, equitable, you've got opportunities for all people, and you don't get the job piece, you don't have the best skills, that's you're still included in the process, you just didn't make it to the end. I think that's the mistake people make is they gotta try and make everybody feel included. Mhmm. It's about being fair about who is selected, who does have the opportunity. I think that's what we've got to try and think about here is is the mindset that goes into our thought, always thinking, is that fair? Is that kind? We may make a judgment. You know, we see people in the street, oh, I don't like her shoes or that's a a handbag doesn't go with that dress. And there's a little micro adjustments we make all the time, but it's stopping it coming out of your mouth because it go, that's that's that's unkind. That's not fair. That that has no value to anybody. I'll just keep that thought to myself and train myself to to try and ignore that next time. Aw. And and that and that's because you can't you can't expect people to not have biases. Biases are there. You can't expect people to not have judgments because judgments and biases are all part of us evaluating the world around us. What it's about doing is how we manage, though, and how it comes out when we talk, and that's what we gotta be careful. Yeah. Well, thank you for bringing that Mindy Kibbins-Klein: up. You and I meet a lot of influencers, and I don't mean, you know, celebrity types. We people who have influence in the sense that they are organizing events. They have tickets for things. They have opportunities, collaborations, podcast interviews. So I think when we open up the opportunity to everybody, we are inclusive. And so it's creating the space. It's about creating the opportunity. And then the people who step in, well, that's up to them. Where we have an issue is where we think we're being inclusive, but the other party doesn't feel that it is an equitable situation, which is a perception. Because maybe because that particular conference has always had a certain type of speaker. They all look the same, sound the same, smell the same. So, you know, the person who's kind of standing on the edge thinks, well, there's no point applying because it it's pointless. I'm not gonna get that opportunity. I'm not gonna get that gig. I can see that because I've I've had those thoughts myself. I think, oh, do I wanna bang my head against the wall? No. Even though it does feel better when you stop. I don't want to be the person who stops myself getting an opportunity. So, you know, I just sort of take a deep breath and and charge in again. And, you know, we have to make an extra effort. So I guess my point is we have to make an extra effort as the organizer of that opportunity or event or whatever, in my case, being a publisher. 80% of our publishing slots are dedicated, allocated, and reserved for people from underrepresented groups. 80% nonnegotiable. That was my big moment 2 years ago, and we've stuck to that. And if you're in that position of influence or or you have that privilege, which it is, to stick to it, make it really clear. Everybody's welcome. So, you know, when I get pushback, I say, well, we'll still have 20% available to people who are not from underrepresented groups. It's just, you know, there's a lot of other places where you can publish a book. We're aiming to to, you know, improve that part of the industry. And then if you're the person who is thinking, oh, is it worth applying? Is it even? Yes. I might my answer would be yes. It's always worth putting yourself forward. It might be an extra effort. But imagine if you get that and you pave the way for other people and show that it's possible when you like to inspire others. No. Joanne Lockwood: For sure. I I think I I dropped in on your conference you organized recently. It's more US time zone based, I believe. I think I was I was helping one of your conference organizers with their tech, and I got a link, and I just dropped in and had to listen to a few sessions. And you had a very balanced set of speakers. I I would probably say leaned more female than male for the for the ratio. And when people say that it's I mean, I hear this all the time. It's just so difficult to find good women speakers. It's so difficult to find good black lawyers. It's so difficult to find. And I say, if you're not winning games, change the manager, and then you start winning games. If you if you can't get a diverse lineup, you can't get diverse workforce, change the hiring manager, change the booker, change that because I guarantee you, if you put a a woman in charge of a speaking event, you'll get more women. If you put a black person in charge, you get more black people. Right. And when I was talking to this recruitment consultant, they said it's really hard to find good black lawyers with the specialism. I said, but there were black led legal firms that have black lawyers and I bet they don't have trouble finding them. So it's about getting into the community, understanding the value proposition, speak the language, sound attractive, the brand of the organization. And if you're not getting attract if you're not attracted to people, look in the mirror, look at who you are, look at what you stand for because it's you that's not attractive. Mindy Kibbins-Klein: Well, for our conference, we did allocate 80% of the speaking slots to people from underrepresented groups. That was our intention, and that's what we did. So thank you for noticing. I really appreciate that. We had people from every community. We had people. I I'm not sure how well we did in the LGBTQ plus community because we we have certain well, we can't have a quota for each yet because it's it is quite difficult to find just the right number of people. But we opened it up. We made it clear. We I actually do talk about it, which is it does sound very woke and almost non PC to say we want you because you're from a minority group. I mean but I've I've just got used to having those conversations. Not we want you. We we we especially want you because you're from that group and you're a good speaker. So as long as I'm coming from the right place, as long as I have the right intention, everybody raved about the conference. I don't know who else noticed because some people would just be like, okay, those were the 20 speakers. Would they notice that 16 were not middle aged white men, middle aged straight white men? I don't know. Able-bodied anyway, you you you get the idea. We didn't. We opened it up, and we managed that. It's it's a choice, and it is extra effort. And some people are thinking, oh, you know, I don't I don't know how and and I don't really have time to put in the extra effort. But then again, you know, this is gonna reflect on you. Yeah. Complete I completely agree. I I as Joanne Lockwood: I say, I did notice because, I I mean, first of all, I noticed because the lead emcee was female. All of the organizing committee were female. So I knew I knew how it was being structured and organized. Therefore, it was inclusive by default rather than inclusive as an afterthought. You weren't trying to bolt in other people after the event, it was started off with that as the framework and I think that's the problem some people make is they try and reverse engineer the diversity quotient. Jo, I mean, I tokenized. Sorry. I only run one conference a year. I can't Mindy Kibbins-Klein: afford to play, you know, tokenism because if that conference doesn't achieve everything that we hope for, we're we're not gonna be able to continue in future. We've got big plans. It's, people are wondering what we're talking about. It's called the Above and Beyond Thoughtful Leadership Conference. It's all about thoughtful leadership, so we kinda have to walk our talk. And, we will get you to speak at one of the conferences, Jo, for sure. Okay. Okay. Jo we're, yeah. Well, I mean, I guess we still have a little time. I don't know what other question you have for me, but I could Oh, I was gonna go Joanne Lockwood: back to the title of the show Okay. About Chris' level playing field. It's easy for us to say as white people with privilege that we're living the playing field. I perceive that many people would consider the playing field to be so stacked against them. We're not even we haven't even got the new turf ordered yet. We're still trying to we're still trying to get the diggers into trying add some dirt into that. The whole playing field is built on probably structural racism, societal. We look at stop and search, we look at we talked at BBC program earlier about the inequities in their education system, the opportunities that failed to exist. This this playing field is so bumpy and so stacked against a large part of the community. Are are the are the privileged people getting more privileged? I mean, there was a thing about the the government departments, the senior civil servants about this velvet drain pipe, how the ratio of privileged middle aged white men generally starting straight up this drain pipe into these positions where people who are from the minority communities really are struggling to get into these higher opportunities. So we may be living in the playing field at the front door, but actually when you get to where it counts, it's still stacked. I think it counts at every stage, to Mindy Kibbins-Klein: be honest. I I think, when you get when it just becomes the norm and nobody really thinks about it, but they see a truly diverse organization or group or team, then, you know, you you have a diverse group who who are all, you know, aiming to move up. Then you can address it at the next level and then the next level and then so it it it's like you said, you know, you you Joanne tackle the whole thing all at once. You you can't, you know, say, well, I have to include everybody. That's a big ask. That's a lot of stress. It's like boiling the ocean. Not gonna happen. Never. Well, I don't know. Climate change folks might say it's happening. Yeah. I'm sure the dinosaurs thought that and then it Joanne Lockwood: it kinda happened, didn't it? Yeah. But we You know, Mindy Kibbins-Klein: being enlightened about these things is the first step. It acknowledging that you're a caring person and then asking yourself, are you willing to do a little bit more? Yes. It's tough. Yes. It's bumpy. There's no turf. Get your shin pads on and get in there and play. Play the game. Just enter the fray. It it, Yeah. It's hard, and a lot of people won't go for it, but then that's that's kind of Pareto, you know, the 80 20 principle. 80% of of people are just happy, you know, ticking along, doing their thing, keeping their heads down and, you know but the 20% who think, yeah. You know what? I could do more. I could create more. I could create more opportunities. I could help more. I could speak and use my influence in a positive way. Yes, you can. And, I feel I feel like I'm on a a political podium and, yes, you can. Yeah. That's good. But the soapbox is out. Let's go for it. Yeah. No. I mean, Joanne Lockwood: I often say it, and it Joanne sound a bit cliche if you're not careful, but you can't change the world, but you can change the one. Be the one, be the one person that says not on my watch, I can make a difference personally. And then to coin a kind of a COVID phrase, become infectious. Get the r number of inclusion, the I number if you want, up to up to 2. Infect people with your ethos of inclusion, belonging, leveling the playing field, then the one becomes the many. And then we can do that one at a time. The other thing I often say is a snowflake on its own hits the ground and melts. A snowflake with its friends becomes an avalanche. Avalanches change landscapes. So be that part of that avalanche of of momentum and be the one that joins in. I love that. Mindy Kibbins-Klein: I I use a snowball metaphor, but it it's saying the same thing. The only thing I would add to that is focus on yourself. Do your thing, you know, think about your intentions, put extra thought and care into your interactions, go out there, put it out into the world, and be be thoughtfully inclusive and equitable and and create that. What happens after that, we need to almost let go of that because I feel very strongly that, we cannot really control how our message lands, how people will react to what we're doing and saying. So just remember your influence is all about what you put out there. And if you do your best with the best intentions, it it will have that effect. But, just just keep your eye on yourself because I do see a lot of people getting upset when they don't seem to get the traction and they they know that you know, you won't always, but keep doing it anyway. That's what I would say. Brilliant. Joanne Lockwood: And those words of inspiration, I think we'll, we'll let our listeners check the show notes. I'll say, how how can people get a hold of you and tell people a bit more about what you do before we move on? So how do they get a hold of you? Hold of Mindy Kibbins-Klein: me, https://mindygk.com. It's my supposed to be my official website. There are so many other places though where people can find me. I'm trying to use Mindy GK here and there because, people spell my last name in a funny way and then they don't find me. The Thoughtful Leader The thoughtful leader has many formats of book, ebook, audiobook, as well as my podcast, as well as my clubhouse club called The Thoughtful Leaders, plural, because we wanted to be more inclusive, not just 1, and reach out. I have a very inclusive and expansive connection and relationship strategy. Until I get up to my limit on any social network, I'm open. If someone abuses it, they're cut off. But until then, you know, connect with me. I would love to chat more about these topics. Joanne Lockwood: I suppose if anyone's got a book inside them they're dying to bring out to the world, look you up. Yes. And if if you can't help, you know people that could help. Well. Especially if they're not a typical If they're from an Mindy Kibbins-Klein: underrepresented group. Yeah. So I do I do run 3 companies. I I run the thoughtful leadership company where I do my speaking and training on these topics. I also run a book coaching company that is going strong 19 years now, running the book midwife, and the book midwife is a metaphor. I'm not a real midwife, so don't call me in the middle of the night. I've got the baby. And I run Panomo Press Publishing Company. So Panomo Press is, the publisher for business, self help, and life story type books that, yeah, 80% are authored by people from underrepresented groups. So I would love to speak with anyone about any of those things. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much. I I'm sure we could talk for another couple of hours. There's lots we could have covered and absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. And of course, thank you to the listeners for tuning in and getting to this point in the podcast. Thank you for sticking with it. And if you haven't subscribed, please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. I'm sure you have a couple. Tell your colleagues. Spread the word and share. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up. I'm sure you'll also be inspired by over the next few weeks months. And, of course, if you'd like to be a guest, if you've got some inspiration or a story you'd like to tell, then join me. I'd also welcome any feedback and suggestions on how we can improve the show. Just email me jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk My name is Joanne Lockwood . And it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.