--- title: "How good humour can be used to nurture inclusive cultures" episode: 4 date: 2020-06-13 guest: "Jeremy Nicholas" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/4-how-good-humour-can-be-used-to-nurture-inclusive-cultures audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-004/audio.mp3 --- # How good humour can be used to nurture inclusive cultures Joanne Lockwood speaks with keynote speaker and former BBC broadcaster Jeremy Nicholas about how humour can help people connect and feel included at work. They explore why shared laughter builds rapport, how humour can quickly reduce tension, and why people sometimes hold back their lighter side in professional settings. Jeremy explains the difference between laughing with people and laughing at them, and how context, relationship, and audience all shape whether a joke lands well or causes harm. He shares examples of how the same line can be received very differently in different rooms, and offers practical guidance on avoiding cruelty, making yourself the safest target when using humour, and being cautious when improvising. The conversation also touches on humour as a coping tool during stressful times, and the role of skilled event MCs in setting tone, building energy, and helping speakers succeed. Throughout, the focus stays on using humour thoughtfully to nurture belonging while reducing the risk of exclusion or offence. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Better communication happens during relaxed face-to-face meetings. - 05:55 — People laugh at different things in places. - 08:24 — Jimmy Carr's comedy about war reactions. - 11:01 — Fringe comedy shows can be tough sometimes. - 15:16 — Importance of engaging audience for stage performers. - 18:21 — Comedians find humour in shared annoyances. - 22:54 — Importance of not craving audience laughter excessively. - 24:29 — MC sets tone, answers questions, introduces speakers. - 28:32 — MC's role is to ignite and maintain energy. - 30:21 — Delighted to have hosted the podcast. ## Key takeaways - Understanding the importance of focusing on storytelling to deliver a meaningful learning message. - Key roles and responsibilities of an MC in setting the tone and maintaining energy and engagement at events. - The impact of regional differences on humour and how it shapes social interactions. - Techniques to balance scripted material with improvisation to avoid offending the audience. - Use of personal experiences and frustrations in humour to handle stress and bond with others. - The delicate balance of using humour to create an in-group without alienating others. - The potential relationship between humour, personal pain and mental health, and the importance of audience appreciation for performers. ## FAQs ### What is the role of an MC in event settings, and how does it relate to creating an inclusive culture? An MC's role is essential in setting the tone, answering audience questions, providing introductions for speakers, and maintaining energy and engagement throughout events. A skilled MC can enhance the overall event experience and support speakers' performances, contributing to a positive and inclusive atmosphere. ### How does humour contribute to fostering inclusive cultures? Humour can bond people and make situations more enjoyable, allowing individuals to relax and open up, fostering better relationships and communication. When used tactfully, humour can help include others in the in-group, rather than creating "other" groups through banter. ### What are the considerations for using humour in nurturing inclusive cultures? It's important to consider context when presenting humour, ensuring that it aligns with the inclusive culture promoting respect and understanding. Humour should be used to bond individuals and create shared experiences, rather than unintentionally excluding or alienating individuals. ### What challenges do comedians face in navigating sensitive topics and language? Comedians face the delicate task of balancing scripted material and improvisation to avoid potentially offensive language or subjects. They must consider the impact of their words and ensure that their humour contributes positively to inclusive cultures. ### How does humour in performances relate to mental health and well-being? Humour can be used to share frustrations, manage stress, and create a connection with others. However, it's also important to be aware that humour may sometimes mask underlying mental health issues, and comedians, like other performers, may struggle with mental health challenges. ### What are the effects of regional differences on what is considered funny and the role of humour in breaking down social barriers? Regional differences can impact what individuals find funny. Humour can help bridge social barriers, but it's crucial to use it to include others in a group, rather than create divisions. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everybody. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am the host for Inclusion Bites Podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having conversations around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in future, then please do drop me a line to Jo Lockwood at seechangehappen co UK. You'll be to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify and of course, all the usual places. So please plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode four with the title of how good humour can be used to nurture inclusive cultures. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Jeremy. Nicholas and I first met Jeremy at a Speaking Association conference in 2018 and we also shared a weekend in Edinburgh at a professional speaker weekend there. Jeremy is a keynote speaker on Communication in Business, specialising in adding humour to presentations. So I asked Jeremy to describe his superpower and he said finding the funny in everything, getting serious laughs in serious talks. Hello, Jeremy, welcome to the show. So how can good humour be used to nurture inclusive cultures? Hi, Jo. Yeah, well, I Jeremy Nicholas: think humour is important because people bond when you have a laugh together. People that laugh together tend to stay together. And so I think any kind of humour that you can put into a situation, it will make people like you, but that's not why you're doing it. You'll then like people that are funny. So I just think it's just that little bit it's like putting a bit of sugar in your tea. It's just a little bit nicer. Although, actually, that's a bad example because I don't put sugar in my tea. Joanne Lockwood: So it's a very human cup of tea. Do you think it's a very human thing to have humour? I think so, Jeremy Nicholas: yeah. I think you see apes messing around as well, and dogs have a bit of a laugh, but none of them use humour with words because they can't talk. Well, they can, but we don't know what they're saying. I've never laughed at a dog. I've never enjoyed their material very much. Yeah, no, I think it's a very human thing. It's in our sort of needs that we have, but people always rank it very low down, they always go for security and warmth and friendship and things. But I think humour is something that everything's just better. It's like seeing the world in colour. If it's funny, it's in colour, otherwise it's just in black and white. Do you find that some people try to Joanne Lockwood: mask their personality by downplaying the lighter side of them? And when we talk about some people never growing up or being a kid, where some people portray this very stiff, very rigid outer frame, do you think some people find it very difficult to let go. Yeah, I think they do. I think Jeremy Nicholas: sometimes you think people look like they've still got the coat hanger in their jacket, so their shoulders like that, I think just calm and relax. And that's why it's so much better if people can have face to face meetings. And you could have a business meeting with someone once a month for five years and never really get much beyond a certain stage. But you could have a retreat with them at a weekend, where you could then have a drink in the evening and chat and relax, and people start telling stories. And that's what we've done for years. We've sat around campfires, told stories and perhaps shared an alcoholic beverage, and that just relaxes people. And you then feel like, oh, yeah, they're the person I had that laugh with. Like you said, we had the weekend in Edinburgh with the professional speaking people. It was a Burns supper event and we had a tour of the castle and it was fantastic weekend. And then when I then see people from that weekend at other professional speaking events, I feel like I know them better than others that I've known longer, that I've only ever seen at an event, perhaps an evening event once a month for a few years. Yeah. Walking around a windy Joanne Lockwood: Glasgow up to the castle and standing there in that big square and taking photographs and having other people take photographs of them. Rightly. Jeremy Nicholas: You say windy Glasgow, but it was Edinburgh. Edinburgh. That's where Edinburgh Castle is. The way I remember it. The way I remember where Edinburgh Castle is. It's in the title. So that's how just a little numeric you might want to use. So it's near Glasgow, but not in Joanne Lockwood: Glasgow. Yeah. Never ever get Edinburgh and Jeremy Nicholas: Glasgow confused. People from Glasgow will tell you the trouble with Edinburgh is it's full of English people, and Edinburgh people are too polite to say what they think of Glasgow. But as a comedian, particularly an English comedian, it's much harder to go down well in Glasgow than it is in know there are certain places so I know there are places in the country where I go down very well, and there's places I don't go down very well. Liverpool. No, I'm not funny in Liverpool. I'm funny in Manchester, which is not very far away, so I don't know why, but I'm not funny in Yorkshire. I'm very funny up about as far up the M one to about redford north Nottinghamshire. Well, redford is on the A one. And then I lose my superpowers Rotherham Sheffield, all the way up Leeds. I'm not funny. Not funny. And then I start getting funny again about Middlesbrough, and then I'm funny all the way up to Scotland and Edinburgh. I'm very funny, but I go across to Glasgow. Not funny at all. Okay, so Joanne Lockwood: that's like localization of what's funny and humour and accent, is it some accents they find funny, some accents they find elitist, maybe, I don't know. I think a lot of Jeremy Nicholas: it would just be things that people laugh at and I think people in Liverpool laugh at different things to people in Manchester laugh know, I go down very well in London because I live in London and I grew up in London and other places. I think it's just if you're seen as a bit of an outsider so somewhere like Cornwall, that has very much its own identity and know you come down here with your fancy ways, then you might struggle and that's in their mind. I went to university in the north and I never got much beyond. You're not from around here, are know, eventually with friends, they forget that you're from a different part, but for an audience, when there's a lot of them en masse, you can seem like a bit of an outsider. So the way to then break that down is always make yourself the butt of the so and then people will warm to you. But I couldn't go to Glasgow and start having a go at in Glasgow you do this. I can't believe, you know, that's not going to go down well, but if I start saying it's lovely, here what you do, isn't it? In London we do this and then they'll oh yeah, they'll laugh at that. Joanne Lockwood: London, right, okay, so you have to create the other group. Often when we talk about inclusive cultures, we end up using comedy or banter to create another group and quite often you can find yourself being on the in group and using humour against the other, whereas what you're suggesting there is be the other and use your otherness to bring you into the in group if you like. Whereas banter is often about creating an other and then taking the mickey out of it. Jeremy Nicholas: Yes. So my rule on that is that I don't ever want anyone in the room to feel threatened. I don't like any sort of cruel humour. So you'll see a lot of stand up comedians that are very cruel in their humour and they're laughing at a very specific group. I don't like to do that and the only specific group I laugh at would be a group that I might belong to. So it might be Londoners or it might be men with bald heads or it might be glasses wearers and all things. It's clear that I'm making a joke about myself and I think that's really important not to have any cruelty. And the thing is, you can do the same stuff in different places and some people will regard it as funny and others will regard it as oh, we shouldn't say that. So, for example, Jimmy Carr did a story about he was working with injured soldiers from Afghanistan and the Gulf conflict, and he was working with them, and a lot of them had lost limbs, and there was a sort of a charity day, bonding day, and he went in and did a free gig for them and but he'd spent the whole day working with them and chatting with them and having pictures taken, and they thought he was great. So when he came on and did a show especially for them, and he said, say what you like about the war in Afghanistan, we're going to have a great team for the Paralympics, they all laughed because they knew that he had judged that that would be all right, because that was the sort of thing that they'd all been saying to him. And they'd had banter amongst themselves. So he knew that was fine. Encouraged by that, he then put it in his set the next night in Manchester to a theatre audience, and people booed him. And the difference was, the soldiers in the audience and their families all knew that he had done so much to help and that that's the sort of thing they would say. And he knew he wasn't having a go at them, he was laughing with them, whereas in Manchester it looked like he was picking on soldiers that lost limbs. And so that was very different. And he's spoken about that and he doesn't do that now. So it's just the difference between looking like you're having a go at people and looking like you're laughing with people. Are you laughing with or at? Yes. When I talk about Joanne Lockwood: DNI World, it's understanding your intent and then the impact. I didn't intend to cause offence, but in this scenario, in this context, offence was taken because the context was different. Humour. You got to understand the context of the humour, haven't you? Yeah. Jeremy Nicholas: The trouble with analysing humour too much is that inevitably you kill it's like dissecting a frog. You find out how the frog works, but the frog dies. And that's the thing with comedy, you look at it too much, it's like, yes, okay, we've got a bit serious about that. But, yeah, you are right. I suppose as a comedian, you Joanne Lockwood: probably learn that you can't be funny to all people every time, everywhere, and you just have to roll with that and just pick yourself up and carry on. Yes. So I Jeremy Nicholas: did last year at the Edinburgh Fringe, I did 27 shows on 27 days in a row and I was happy with 23 of them. And there were four that I wasn't happy with. But of those four gigs, people came up to me at the end and said, I like that. That's the best show I've seen since I've been at the Fringe. And I'd say, when did you arrive? And they said, about an hour ago. Just a joke I've thrown in. That didn't happen. It just occurred to me now, but the point being the four that I wasn't happy with, it's often because there were people sitting there folding their arms or there was just a person with a grumpy face in the front row. And that is the thing with a fringe venue, the way a comedy gig is set up, the light's very bright on the stage, the audience is in darkness, so you can perhaps only see the front two rows. And if there's one person in the front two rows who has their arm folded, it looks like maybe their partner dragged them along and it's not really their sort of thing and they'd much rather have gone somewhere else. You've just got to zone them out of your head, because if you look at them, you think, this is going really badly. And most comedians have a bit of an insecurity that, oh, I'm not funny anymore. And you've just got to rely on the fact that every night you've done this material, when you've been practising, when you did your previous shows, and when you did it at the event, it got a laugh, so it probably is still funny. So never mind that bloke with a grumpy face in the front row, just ignore them from those four gigs. I got other referrals from people because they said, no, that was really good, but I had times when I thought I might need to just run off this stage and run out into the road screaming because it's going so badly. But it never was. It never was. But most people who do humorous stuff have a little bit of an insecurity about, oh, my goodness, is this funny anymore? Especially if you've done stuff before and so you've got used to it. The things that make me laugh the most are unexpected things. So if I've done a show four times in a row, I think, well, fed up with this now. And the tendency then is to start chucking in new stuff that's just occurring to you like I did about that person. I've just got here an hour ago, which is mildly amusing, but I don't think I'll ever say that ever again in my life. The danger is you get some people who start then riffing and doing stuff that they're thinking of sort of stream of consciousness type stuff, and that's when the danger is, because then you haven't filtered it. The stuff that you've written, you've checked, is there anything offensive in it? It's when people start ad libbing that their true personality might come out and they might say it's something racist or sexist or homophobic if they have that in them. Now, I don't have that in me, so I'm unlikely to do that, but I might go too far just on a particular point. I might be not offensive, but I might just go a little bit too far with something you think probably best not to do that again. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: what you may have done is inadvertently just use language that wasn't good language. You wouldn't necessarily be offensive, but the language in the context of the way you use that language, someone might have detected some sort of element of racism. I think you see it politicians all the time. Instead of referring to a person of colour, they talked about a coloured person. That's because their skill about how to describe somebody and the use of adjectives isn't quite right. So, as you say, when they go off piece and wing it, they can sometimes their inner brain kicks in and then they lose the context or sentence that they haven't thought about. And, yeah, I guess comedy, it's even more risky to go off script, because then how do you get yourself back in again, then? That must be quite tricky, but I know what you mean about yeah, I. Really like the. Carry on. Sorry, I was just going to say I really like Jeremy Nicholas: the Claire in the Community sitcom on Radio Four. I don't know if you know, I've. Not heard that one. Claire is a social worker, played by she's a social worker, played by Sally Phillips. It's based on a long running comic strip in The Guardian, and she's a social worker, so she tries all the time to use the correct language and be very PC, but occasionally she'll start censoring herself when there's no need to. So they have a meeting and they're talking all about in one of the episodes, they're talking about humour. And she says, yes, we can't have any black humour, dark humour. She just immediately corrects herself on that, as though anyone would have any sort of problem with that. But, yeah, people do tie themselves in circles. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I know what you're saying. Also, when you're on stage, you're delivering either as a professional speaker, as a comedian, I've done a few stand up gigs and I know if you've got the wrong audience or the audience that's not quite in the right eyeline, you've got one person, as you say, is looking, playing with their phone, arms crossed, not interested. That can almost your brain just locks onto that negativity sometimes, isn't it? And I often find when I talk on stage, if I just need one person to smile at me in the first couple of sentences and I've got them, and that's the person I can work with. I can then blank everybody else out. But, yeah, I do a little stand up routine, which I've done a few times now, and I delivered it the other day. And the audience, it's like a square audience, so I had nobody in front of me, everyone was in the periphery and there was no one I could focus on. I couldn't hear the laughter. And that's a really tricky thing to sort of pick up on, isn't it? And as you said, you start to doubt yourself how funny you are. You think, that should have got a laugh and it got a titter. It didn't get a belly laugh. And it's a really tricky thing. Without wanting to date this podcast too much. We're now, in this sort of like, world pandemic situation. We hear these words unprecedented, and I think we hear about 15 times a day. And I think by now it's kind of the norm. I think we can move past unprecedented now. So how can we, as humans, keep our smiles up? The British have this spirit of soldiering on stiff upper lip. But how can we now come together as a country and laugh about stuff? Yes, Jeremy Nicholas: so people have different approaches. One thing that a lot of people send to me are lots of little internet memes, little funny images or videos. And to be honest, if I'm working and they start flying in, I just switch my notifications off because I think, no, hang on, I'm busy, and do that. But then I'll settle down the evening and then I'll see them coming in. Someone sent me one the other day and it was a picture of the Last Supper, as though it was a Zoom call. They'd taken all the people, so you've got Jesus in the middle with nobody else on the table. And then all of the disciples have been put into little zoom windows. And that was a funny image. And I felt like, yeah, because that's how I spend my life now, talking to people on zoom. I just think, just pick up the phone to people that always make you laugh, that you always tell good stories with and just have a really good rant about all the things that are annoying you, because it's a great way to release some tension and a lot of comedy just to release a tension. You build up that pressure, build it up, build it up, and then the laughter is the pressure being released. And so we call it truth and pain, where you just moan about stuff and the other that's something that annoys them. Then you'll have a shared bond and you can laugh at it. And you can make your problems smaller by laughing at it. No matter how big something seems, if you laugh at it, what a great weapon that is. It just brings it down to size. So that's called truth and pain. And if you think about a comedian or a professional speaker, when they come on, they don't ever start by saying, I'll tell you what I really like. And if they told you all the stuff they liked and that they're happy with, that's not funny. But if they go, oh, it drives me mad when so Billy Connolly would be the best at know when the person in front of you plays with a cheque or you pick the wrong queue at the post office. Yeah, Ulster is going to the days when we were allowed outside, of course, but it's that common shared thing. So I have a programme called Talking Funny for Speakers, where I give them exercises to do on how to make their talks funnier. And week one, the exercise is write down all the things that annoy you, and then in the group, we all share all the things that annoy us. And then you think, right, what is funny about that? And then what else is funny about that? And what would be even more? And it'll go to like, four stages and what else? And what else? And what else until you get that little bit of gold that like, yep, that's the line. That's what really annoys me. Yeah, I like that, Joanne Lockwood: because the routine I do, I think you've heard it, is all around the pain in my life and the sort of ironic examples of how just being me in the world. And people laugh at it because they'd never thought of those things in that context before. And it allows them to get an insight onto the pain and the irony that I face every day. If I just said, I'm really happy walking down the street, there's no humour in that, is there? But, yeah, if I say I'm walking. Down the street, Jeremy Nicholas: what gets the biggest laugh in your routine? What is the line that you think always that's the killer line. I Joanne Lockwood: talk about the airport scanner and the punchline to that is unexpected item in the bagging area. And that always gets the sort of people come up to me afterwards and they're still laughing about that one bit because it's a common phrase used in a different context and I don't kind of signpost it enough and then I land it and it kind of just makes people go, wow, where did that come from? Yeah, I see what you say. Oh, yeah, I get it now. And it's a way of being crude without being crude, isn't it, as well? And I think when you have a Jeremy Nicholas: good line like that, what I always encourage people to do is then say, and what else could you say about that? What other things would go along with unexpected item in the baggage area? I actually Joanne Lockwood: now talk about the fact that so women out there, if you want to smuggle cocaine, make it look like you're trans, it's much easier to get through customs that way. Very good Jeremy Nicholas: line. Yeah, we've got a laugh as well. Joanne Lockwood: Do you find sometimes people kind of mask an underlying mental health problem by using humour? They're using it as a way of covering their life and how can we stop or how can we spot that and help people who are just masking their underlying conditions? Jeremy Nicholas: Yes, I think a lot of people that a lot of professional comedians have over the years have mental health problems. There's a very high rate of suicide amongst comedians, and alcoholism and drugs, but then there's an awful lot that don't have any problems with it at all. But I think people that just think a little bit differently are often very good at making humour. I don't know how you spot it and I don't really know how you help, because that's not really my end of things. No, Joanne Lockwood: so, Robin Williams, for example, everyone thought he was the life and soul of the party and quite clearly had some very underlying mental health conditions, and everyone thought he was okay, that was how he was. But I guess he must have gone home at night, switched off the microphone, switched off the camera and turned in on himself, maybe. Yeah, because as a speaker, and I know many speakers, we kind of thrive on the audience appreciation, don't we? We thrive on that brain drug that we like to be liked. And sometimes when you're not in front of the camera, not without an audience, the vacuum appears, isn't it? And you're then living on your own with yourself again and no one to find you. So I Jeremy Nicholas: think my thing is that it's important not to care too much whether they laugh or not, because if you're really craving that laughter like it's heroin, then on the days when you haven't got a show, you're going to struggle. So I think just think of it, it's nice if they smile. If they laugh, it's better. But if they don't do anything, they've still had the story that you're telling. That's my big thing. It's always got to be I don't ever think of myself as a comedian, I think of myself as a storyteller with some kind of a learning message. So they're getting the learning, they're hearing the story, and then instantly, if they laugh as well, that's a bonus. And usually they do, but I wouldn't ever want to go out and just do did you hear the one about because to me, there's no point. I don't crave the laughter enough for that, and I'm not funny enough either for that, because all of my background is I was a BBC broadcaster journalist for years, so it's always been about the content. And the humour for me is only ever the icing on the cake. It's not the actual cake itself, it's just a little bit of sprinkle of sugar to help that medicine go down. Good Joanne Lockwood: point. I've seen you MC some events, and I think you're a fantastic MC, and I know you even coach MCs for events as well. So how important it is? Is it to have a great MC or someone facilitating? Because some content in some conference could be quite straight laced or do need this icebreaker. So how do you see your role in that situation? Jeremy Nicholas: Yeah, so I see the role of the MC to set the tone for the event, to answer any questions that the audience might have. So, first of all, what's the WiFi password? Where are the toilets? When's the break? How long is this going on? When can I get out of here so that people can plan that? Any other questions? Like, if they're gluten free, there's gluten free sandwiches at the far end in the breakout sessions. Do I have to pick now? So, any question. So I just think, what do the audience need to know? And then it's about giving a build up to all of the speakers. And most speakers give me introductions that are far too long and I just say, all I need to know is who you are, what you're speaking about, why we should listen. Please welcome your name. That's all I need, four lines, but still people send me biographies and I don't care about that. I don't care how many universities you went to and how many degrees you've got and what your names of your children are, just who you are, what you're talking about, why you're here, why we should listen. What's your name? Off you go. And then it's coordinating the clapping, really. Organisers often haven't got a clue how to do this. A number of times they'll say, well, the chief executive is going to say a few words and then welcome you as the MC. That's something I get all the time. And whenever I have the meeting, I say, okay, that's mad. I need to come on first to hush them up. Tell them the rules, tell them about switching their phone to silent, tell them the hashtag, all those things they need to know, and then, please welcome the chief exec. So he come or he or she comes on to applause. And I said, if the chief exec goes on, then he or she will then have to hush them up. Well, that's not a good way to do it. And then welcome me. Why welcoming me? I'm just some bloke you've paid, so all right, yes, okay, we'll do it that way around. And then with the speakers, you need to make sure that they start well and any kind of showing off that they were going to do, you do for them. So if someone's written a book, I don't want them coming on waving their book around. I'll go, oh, they've written this book, they must be worth listening to. And then I'm giving them a plug and then they come on to applause. And then my other big tip for MCs, sorry, I'm a bit fanatical about this, is that when you get to a break, when you get to a break, you want to leave the stage to applause. The number of times people go, Well, I think we'll take a break there. See you back in 15 minutes. And then everyone shuffles out quietly. What you need to say is, coming up after the break, we've got Dave, who's going to do this, we've got Miranda, who's going to do a session on this, and Leslie will be here to share these thoughts. But let's hear it for the two speakers we've heard so far, joe and Marion. And then there's clapping. You walk off, it's not your clapping, they're clapping. Jo and Marion. But it means that everyone knows that that's the thing. And they're not just shuffling out quietly to get a coffee. No great Joanne Lockwood: ideas, great tips. And I think when you're in the audience, you can experience the difference. As you say, there's the chalk and cheese there, and a great MC adds to the event. There's a valuable part of it, and it makes the segue between the speakers far more relevant. You get the takeaway summarised, you get build up energy in the room. And I know when I come on stage, I love the energy as I come in. And the one thing Jeremy Nicholas: people often say is, oh, you don't notice a good MC. If they've done their job, you shouldn't notice them. If they don't notice me, I haven't done my job. I want them to notice me because I want them to think, oh, that was really good. It reflowed. Well, because of the MC, I'll recommend him to somebody else. So forget that rubbish about you don't notice a good MC. That's rubbish. No, I agree with that. I've MC'd a couple of Joanne Lockwood: events and I really want to be building them up. I want the audience to start clapping. I even get to practise clapping while we're in the dead space before the thing starts. I want a couple of whoops. I get competition going between the sides, and then when someone comes on, they're already in that zone where they don't mind clapping and being vocal, which is what you want as a stage performer, as a speaker, you want that energy because that's what you soak up when you first come on, isn't it? And I love the point about you introducing my book and not me, because it's having someone else talk about you as an authority is far more powerful than saying about yourself, isn't it? Jeremy Nicholas: Yeah, absolutely. I think that all speakers would welcome a good MC because then they're coming on, they've started the fire, and then the speaker will just come on and throw paraffin on the fire and get it all going. But if they come on dead, it's really hard to lift it. And especially if you've had a session and the speaker before you wasn't very good or the subject was very serious, so it brought the mood down a bit, then the job of the MC is to, oh, I can't let the next person start like that. So it's basically like a barbecue, where occasionally, as the MC, you've got to put a few bits of paper, a bit of a bit of opening the air valve belonging to get it going, so that the next person starts it's like a spinning top. You've just got to whip it a few times to get the top going so that the next speaker at least starts with a decent chance of doing a good gig. Joanne Lockwood: Well, thank you for your time, Jeremy. I really appreciate you taking some time out in your busy pre Easter schedule. I'm sure you have lots of things planned, like going to the side or maybe going for a walk in the forest. But maybe next week. Well, maybe August, but keep safe. So, for my listeners, many thanks to Jeremy. I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty of humour for thought. We talked a bit about MCE as well. And a huge thank you to you all for listening in. So please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S please tell your friends please tell your colleagues I've got a whole load of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. Please remember, if you would like to be a guest on this show, please let me know. I would welcome all of your feedback, comments and suggestions to Jo Lockwood at seechangehappen co UK. Let me know how we can improve. Let me know what content you would like. So, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today.