---
title: "Viewing gender through a fresh perspective"
episode: 39
date: 2021-08-05
guest: "Antoinette Dale Henderson"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/39-viewing-gender-through-a-fresh-perspective
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-039/audio.mp3
---

# Viewing gender through a fresh perspective

Joanne Lockwood is joined by TEDx speaker and author Antoinette Dale Henderson to explore gender through a wider lens, starting with women’s experiences of confidence, imposter feelings, and being heard at work. They discuss how early social conditioning shapes expectations of “masculine” and “feminine” power, why women can be penalised for being direct, and how skills like gravitas, clarity, and vocal delivery can help people land messages without becoming inauthentic. Joanne also reflects on her own experience of gender transition and voice, and how assumptions about presentation can lead to misgendering. The conversation broadens into allyship and culture change: why gender equality conversations often lack men, how organisations can use data and infrastructure changes (policy, flexibility, trust) to make progress, and how storytelling can shift minds more effectively than preaching. They also touch on the pandemic’s impact on women’s careers, workload, and wellbeing, and what more inclusive workplaces might look like as work patterns evolve. Antoinette shares details of her books Leading With Gravitas and Power Up, and where listeners can connect with her.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Reconsidering gender power dynamics beyond traditional binaries.
- 09:54 — Gravitas involves deeper voice for credibility.
- 15:21 — Women struggle being heard due to lacking confidence.
- 17:27 — Societal conditioning enforces restrictive gender roles.
- 26:57 — Balancing gender roles without neglecting women's issues.
- 32:04 — Vocal women outnumber men discussing social issues.
- 36:09 — Use storytelling to inspire change, not preaching.
- 43:14 — Pandemic setback gender equality, affecting women's careers.
- 44:47 — Flexible work environment fosters gender equality progress.
- 51:24 — Company prefers office work despite remote capability.
- 56:31 — Prioritise socialising at home over work environments.
- 01:01:49 — Last-minute TEDx video recorded while camping.
- 01:07:11 — Two books: Leading with Gravitas, Power Up.

## Key takeaways

- The evolution of gender perspectives and power dynamics in the workplace.
- How societal conditioning affects gender roles from childhood.
- Strategies for women to overcome internal barriers like perfectionism and imposter syndrome.
- The impact of the pandemic on gender equality and work environments.
- The importance of promoting emotional intelligence (EQ) in leadership roles.
- Shifting towards a results-based work culture that prioritises flexibility and trust.
- Encouraging inclusive conversations and involving men in gender equality initiatives.

## FAQs

### What is the main focus of this episode of the Inclusion Bites Podcast?

The episode, titled "Viewing Gender Through a Fresh Perspective," explores traditional gender power perceptions, the evolution of societal attitudes towards gender norms, and the impacts of work environment changes due to the pandemic. The conversation also delves into the importance of authenticity and emotional intelligence in personal and professional development.

### Who is the guest featured in this episode and what is her expertise?

The guest is Antoinette Dale Henderson, a TEDx speaker, author, and founder of the Gravitas programme. She specialises in helping women advance in leadership roles by advocating broader perspectives on gender and power.

### How has Antoinette's perspective on gender evolved?

Antoinette's views on gender power perceptions have evolved through her interactions with Joanne and her daughters, prompting a reconsideration of traditional gender norms and pronouns.

### What societal shifts are discussed in terms of gender and inclusion?

The conversation highlights the increasing acceptance and representation of diverse gender identities and roles in media and corporate sectors, marking a significant shift from past societal norms.

### How has the pandemic impacted work environments and gender equality?

The pandemic has caused a significant shift towards remote work in sectors like banking and technology, while traditional industries are pushing for a return to the workplace. This shift has highlighted gender inequalities, with women often bearing a disproportionate share of domestic responsibilities, affecting their careers.

### What are the concerns about traditional gender roles in the workplace?

The episode addresses the challenges women face when adopting traditionally male traits to succeed, potentially at the cost of their own unique skills such as emotional intelligence and collaboration.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people, have simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@changehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in the headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 39 with the title, Viewing Gender Through A Fresh Perspective. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Antoinette Dale Henderson. Antoinette describes herself as a TEDx speaker, a two time author and founder of the Gravitas program. When I asked Antoinette to describe her superpower, she said, she always chooses to see the best in people, and her superpower is enabling others to see that in themselves. Hello, Antoinette. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. It's amazing to be

Antoinette Dale Henderson: here. I've been looking forward to this. We've known each other

Joanne Lockwood: a couple of years and through Lockwood, we've not had the chance to catch up. So this is gonna be really amazing. So thank you for coming on. I'm looking

Antoinette Dale Henderson: forward to it. So I call this episode Viewing Gender Through a Fresh

Joanne Lockwood: Perspective. What does that mean to you? Well, it's

Antoinette Dale Henderson: interesting because I have, over the past 3 years or so, found myself working more and more in the space of, helping lead women in leadership really further their careers. And and that really came as a result of my work in the corporate world. So I've worked with men and women, anybody. And, you know, what what I noticed was that it was often women who are coming to me and saying, I'm experiencing confidence issues. I'm in experiencing, you know, that second pandemic of 21st century. I'm experiencing imposter syndrome or I'm really holding myself back and I I need your help. And so I was inspired, probably about 3 years ago to to start looking at how I could put together some programs and and really some solutions to help further women in business. And that coincided with the whole me too movement where, women started to call out really inappropriate behavior and and stand up for themselves and and and say enough is enough. And then at the same time, looking at, the gender pay gap that that was also starting to happen about 2 years ago. And so that inspired me to write my second book which is, Power Up, The Smart Women's Guide to Unleashing Their Perspective. And and so that's gone really, really well. And and the TEDx came out of that book and, you know, there's been a big focus for me. Now as I say, I I work with everyone, particularly in the leadership space, but I did find myself working more and more with women and and really looking at that theme of gender equality. And my take on on power is that I think traditionally that there's different perspectives on what power is. So you you've got the most traditionally masculine powers. She's very strong and directive and powerful. And then you've got the more female power which is traditionally more about emotion intelligence and influence. And you can even hear through my voice when I describe each of those two ends of the spectrum. You know, that there's a much more of a softness associated with the with the perception around, female power. And and I'd I'd thought, well, why on earth should it be like that? Why shouldn't everyone be able to access that full range? Why couldn't why shouldn't everyone learn from everyone else and be able to tap into their full ranges of power? And so, yeah, a lot of the perspective was around why should it be polarizing? Why should it be binary? Why should it be one thing or another? And so I was already started to look at at at what gender is and what it means. But still at the same time, you know, I was talking about men and women and and looking at it through fresh eyes, this has been a very, very recent thing for me. Because clearly, I mean, we we met about 3 years ago, didn't we? And I I saw you speak and you moved me to tears actually the first time I saw you speak, Joanne. And listening to your perspective and your story and the people that you work with and represent and and the whole perspective around trans and non binary and what that means already started to just open up my eyes. And then more recently, I've got 2 daughters. Right? 14, 17. And my youngest, the 14 year old, more recently has started to they both go well, she goes to a girl school. The other one has moved on. She now goes to what originally was a boys school and now is mixed because she's doing a doubles. But the point is is that what what she was doing was, starting to question why is it that teachers should refer to them all as girls And why is it that that it should be so simple as the 2 pronouns? And and how about, you know, opening up people's eyes and the teachers and the the whoever they are, and however they are. And so that that's really the fresh perspective on gender that that really my eyes are being opened up to now through my own children and through where I think the world is going.

Joanne Lockwood: That's fascinating to hear because we as parents often feel we're the ones to do the educating. But what we're learning now is that we are learning so much more from our children about their world and about their future. And we're now more responsive. And I think maybe when we Jo back to our childhood, we didn't believe as children, we had that empowerment that we would tend to do as we're told if we don't speak, if they're not spoken to, it's kind of attitude. But now we're now empowering our children in different ways to speak up. That's

Antoinette Dale Henderson: right. And, and I think that's a beautiful thing. And and I'm so grateful. I trained to be a coach when my youngest was about 2. And I'm so grateful that I did that because when I did that, I learned to really listen and learn to really just have that curiosity around the fact that everyone is different and everyone deserves the right to have their own opinions and to be able to express it, which kind of inspires a lot of what I do in my professional world. And so I learn and I trained to do that. And and I really hope that that kind of finds its way into the way that I I am a parent and and how I, yeah, how I do empower my young the young people around me. It's it's taken

Joanne Lockwood: several centuries of programming by the state, by the media, by Hollywood to just reinforce this gender binary. The the brave strong man and the soft fragrant woman, if you like. And that's been reinforced. You look at some of the the Disney cartoons of yesteryear, the Snow White, the Prince Charming, the the helpless woman, the saved saved by the man, slay the dragon stuff. We've really had that programmed into us for for decades decades decades. And it's really hard to overcome those stereotypes now, isn't it? It really is. But I think it it is interesting

Antoinette Dale Henderson: that corporates are waking up to the potential of not thinking that way. I think it's Pixar. I think they've got a new movie that they've come out where they've got a a non binary, person who's being featured and and and then you look at some of the toy manufacturers and then they're they're less like that. You know, you you'll have you'll have a mix up. You might just have the barbies with, like, the big boobs and the tiny little waist and the kind of pink outfit and all of that, but they are mixing up a lot more now. And so I think that it's it's all accelerating. So I'm I'm fascinated to to be able to kind of project into the future to see where we're all going. But I think if I if I look back to when I was, a child and going through being being a teenager and stuff like that, I mean, being gay was illegal. Right? And, you know, and it and hidden away. My my uncle was gay and he died of AIDS. And at that time, my parents could not tell anybody. You know, it was secret. It was taboo and it was so and and now, you know, that that's at least in my my view and and the world that I operate in, that that just isn't even a thing anymore. So I think everything is changing. And I think if if we want to really live in this world, we we all need to kinda go into it with an open mind. Yeah. I mean, do you think the part of work is

Joanne Lockwood: is really evolving and changing? I mean, I read Mary Porter's book, you know, Work Like a Woman. Yeah. I've got it. Yeah. There seems to be that perception that in order to succeed as a woman, you have to almost adopt male's traits, the loudness, the confidence. As you said, the feminine powerhouse for EQ and collaboration differences skills. Are we losing that sometimes when we're trying to create a violence where women feel they have to succeed as a man with male traits Or are we are we able to push back? I think that has traditionally been the

Antoinette Dale Henderson: case. And and I know that there are people out there who will will train women to, speak with a deeper voice or to look at bringing in more sort of masculine clothing and but I actually think that's, I think that I hope that that's in the past now. And so I think the more enlightened corporates that are much more open minded when it comes to that kind of thing now. You know, I work with with men and women. And what I will say is that when it comes to gravitas, you know, my definition of that is, you know, commanding, respect, getting taken seriously, standing out from the crowd, then you you have to think about your voice and you have to think about the messages that you're communicating. And so and and I look at the difference between how approachability comes across and, you know, how how that comes across to your voice and you can already hear me as I'm saying it, you know, my voice goes lighter. It might it might go up at the end of the sentence because it's it's got that lightness. But if people want to have that credibility and that gravitas, then it will naturally your voice will naturally go down. And, you know, I I do share that with everybody in all my classes because it's it it it does make an impact. But that's not about becoming more man. It's it's just about playing with depth and gravity and seriousness and authority, and and that does come with with with having a more powerful voice. I've heard that before from

Joanne Lockwood: someone. They talked about uptalk, which is where you speak, you know, higher at the end of the sentence. And that almost implies a lack of confidence while you're asking a question. Mhmm. You tend to finish a question with an up. And so having the power and closure is always down talk, isn't it? You you you land that Exactly. You to. Exactly. It's interesting. Earlier this

Antoinette Dale Henderson: week, I was I was running a session and I had 3 Aussies on the program. And so I was describing this. It's like, you know, the uptake. It does sound like every statement becomes a question because it it you're you're asking But you might not be asking. And so actually, you know, if you wanna make a point and that actually, you know, you you're describing the Aussie accent here. Whether it's Aussie or whether it's from LA or whether it's any teenager, you know, the uptick is yeah, I mean, you you don't want people to become inauthentic or sound like robots, but it's just knowing if you really wanna land a point. Then if your voice goes down at the end of the point, then it will land.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Completely because it's a full stop, isn't it? It really is a close. And if you want to get that point, yeah, it's a real divide. I made a conscious decision when I gender transitioned 4, 5 years ago. I toyed with my voice, the confidence I had and whether I wanted to change my voice to sound more feminine because it was voice coaching. And I decided that it was my voice, I didn't want to change who I was that much for everybody else, I changed my appearance, my identity, everything else. But the thought of change in my voice, it would just overburden my thought process. I'd always have to be conscious of it, I was actually thinking about how I was speaking. And I decided that I was gonna keep my voice and in some ways, I guess it's an advantage because I still have that that deep gravitas about it, but I'm not I don't uptick at the end generally unless I'm asking a question. And also, it does create a little bit of shock and awe when I'm on Joanne, and I stand there and hold that pause at the beginning before I speak. And I've had a number of people Jo who've literally sat back in their chair, go, wow, where did that voice come from? Wasn't expecting that to be so it's a great attention grabber. So I've learned to use it to my advantage and put up with the, I feel like, the misgendering or the confusion it causes negatively, if you like, because our voice and the way we present is very, very powerful, isn't it? It is. Yeah.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: And, yeah, it's interesting. I I've I've I've I've thought about my voice as well. And and and and if you think of gravitas, you know, sometimes people's perception of gravitas is it's a statesmanlike. It's a statesmanlike quality. That's, you know, how it was originally defined by back in Roman times. And so the perception that the traditional could be is that if you've got gravitas, then you you are a man and, you know, statesmanlike qualities emerge like fine wine over the years, and you've got the silver hair and all of that. Clearly, I'm I'm never gonna be any of those things. You know, as a a fairly petite female, blonde female, you know. So but my take on it is that, yeah, that's great. And so one of the first edition of the book, I chose to put my face on the front to say, anyone can have gravitas. You know, it doesn't matter who you are. You know, you can find a way of developing it, find your own way of developing it. And I I like that shock and awe. You know, I if you if you do the same as everybody else and and conform to what people are expecting, then you're just kinda bland. You become bland and you merge into the background. I

Joanne Lockwood: mean, I've asked you as I've I've had many conversations with other women, you know, either in the bar after the event or in coffee breaks, whatever you're taught. I've met many women who have a confidence, find they're not being heard. And and, of course, my socialized brain is listening to the way they're talking, thinking why I could completely understand why you're not getting heard because you don't have any gravitas in your voice. You don't have any, your sentences aren't structured in a way where I know what you want. They're kind of drifting and I think that is some of the some of the challenge that many women I've I've spoken to who have kind of lack of confidence is they don't know how to be confident to start with and put themselves in a situation where they speak with authority that that maybe the uptick is occurring because of that nervousness or that that that anxiousness they feel, that projection or or being talked over maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that

Antoinette Dale Henderson: that can be the case with men and women. And and I I think that it it takes practice and it's absolutely learnable. I I think what people often do is they they feel like once they finally got the spotlight, they feel like they they they go overboard. They're trying to justify. They had all of the information and they just they go around the houses and and the the nuggets of information or they they get lost. I think when it comes to women and and when I wrote the book, Power Up, I I I was really clear that I wanted to get tangible evidence and and real research to back up what I was saying because I, you know, I wanted to make sure that it it the research demonstrates this and And female conditioning, you know, the way the girls are brought up like you were talk talking about before, you know, we we do. We get hold to sit still, be quiet, not make a fuss, you know, be pretty, you know, go play nicely, and and girls are, you know, girls are encouraged and conditioned in that way. Whereas boys, you know, they go run outside, play, be loud, get into fisticuffs, and that's almost celebrated as well. And so, you know, those those roles or those expectations get formed really, really early on. So that happens. And then and so, you know, there's that society's conditioning. And so I I talk about that there's the glass ceiling which, you know, their society's perspectives on on to the extent to which women can progress and develop within within organizations and who is expected to be at the top of those organizations. There's a glass ceiling, but there's also glass bricks that women almost have in their own head that stop themselves from putting themselves out there. So that conditioning, things like perfectionism, imposter syndrome, trying too hard, being the good girl. These are all glass breaks which get in the way. So it's not surprisingly that when the woman finally gets a chance to speak, it comes out jumbled and there's all of this stuff that gets in the way. But it doesn't mean that it has to be the case. You know, it it is about how do you learn to overcome that? How do you structure your thinking? How did you get clarity in your thinking? And how do you use some of those techniques around being heard? Things like pausing to make sure your message lands. I

Joanne Lockwood: completely agree. I I've had so many more conversations with other women in the last 3 or 4 years than I ever had in in earlier in my life. And I've met some amazingly strong powerful women who don't speak loudly. They don't speak with any aggression or pushiness. But they're just so thoughtful, so considered, and they really are at the top of their game. And they show me every day that you can succeed by really being authentic and feminine, but know your mind. And I'm not saying don't suffer fools, but be wary of the fact that people are going to maybe look down at you or undervalue you, hold your ground, hold that strain and and say, Jo, I am good enough and my opinion is valid and as I have lots of conversation with women And I really see that and respect that in them. And it's

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Yeah. And and and it's learned though. It's for all of us, it's land. It it comes over time. But I think, you know, that they're more powerful blockers in the way for women because of what I've just described there than there are for men. And and I meet a lot of women who say, oh god. I wish I've met you 30 years ago. You know, I've I've wasted so much time getting in my own way. If only I knew some of these things when I was in my twenties, a lot of meandering, you know, career wise or or or vocally, you know, wouldn't have happened.

Joanne Lockwood: Is it is it a male trait that men tend to be more competitive or more, feudalistic towards each other? There's a lot more jockeying for hierarchy within within men that is about winning, conflicting, difficult to say more collaborative, more nurturing, more nurturing, more respectful of each other Jo we don't tend to get into those conflict conversations with each other. And men have been practicing this kind of bravado and socialized into that, which is why maybe women struggled in those in those environments where they need to have a conflict or be forthright. That is a natural skill they've learned over the years. Yeah. Spot

Antoinette Dale Henderson: on. And so, you know, I think it's it's how do you approach conflict or challenging conversations? Do you go into them knowingly and, choose to put yourself out there or or do you shy away from them altogether. So that that there's that. It's the choice. It's how you behave, but it's also what happens afterwards. Because what often happens with women is that we'll hold on to things. We'll we'll replay things that have happened and and we'll, yeah, we'll and whereas men will just kinda let them go. It's like there was a conflict. There was a there was a disagreement. There was a a bit of sparring, and then it's just gone. Whereas women would just hold on to that, and it will stop them from it then going into a similar situation after. Yeah. I I see that from both sides.

Joanne Lockwood: From both sides of my life, I I see the difference in Okay. The way that conversations are closed and resolved. As you say, a couple of broken noses and it's sat on the back in a pint and and it's forgotten. Whereas women, it's a it's a lifelong, lifelong, disagreement and it's really hard to resolve that cold argument, isn't it? The whole argument resolved quickly. The cold arguments, once they freeze, they kinda set in, and it's really hard to Jo overcome those.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Yeah. And I think yeah. And and when women don't do that, that perhaps if they if they are colder or harder or more direct or stronger, then they they'll get labeled in in all different ways. So they're like either get labeled a bitch or they'll get labeled a, you know, a tyrant or they'll get labeled a a queen bee. And, and so, you know, a queen bee's, I guess, syndrome is a slightly different thing because, you know, a woman has sort of decided to kind of put herself in that position and and she'll she'll trample over other people to get to that place. So that's a slightly different thing. But you you kinda question what would be different if it were a man evidencing those kinds of behaviors. And, actually, would those behaviors end up getting celebrated and and enable that person to kinda rise up through the ranks, as opposed to being held back. I don't know. It's, you know, expectations of what we think is the right way to be and and isn't. And I think, you know, the fresh pair of eyes thing is thinking, well, why should it be like that? Why should any of it be like that? Why can't we all celebrate, you know, all of our differences? You think about emotional intelligence, I I actually think that that is a superpower that we all need to develop and, progress with. And I remember running a session a few years ago now, but it was for an investment bank, and it was all men, 20 men and me. And it's like, right. Today, we're going to explore in emotional intelligence. And you could see 20 pairs of eyes all rolling. It's like, what is this fluffy stuff I'm gonna talk about now? What was she gonna be banging on about now? You know, and it's and and I don't think it has changed. I think it is evolving but still there's that association that we place on the more intuitive hours that that they're softer or they're lighter or that they're less valuable. Actually, I think the reverse is true. I'll just pick up what you're saying

Joanne Lockwood: about when we try to introduce men to the fluffier side of of EQ. And it reminds me, I was I was on stage in San Francisco and I was on a panel and the topic was effectively gender equality in the workplace, how do we level up? And I was asked the question and I I as I was asked the question, I was thinking, I looked out into the room and there must be 600 people, 2 blocks of 300 corridor down the middle. I just looked around and said, isn't part the problem that we talk about gender equality and the room is full of women. There are no men in the audience. Where are the men? And okay, there's probably 8 to 10 men in the entire room or 600. Yeah. On a session about gender equality and gender equality, racial equality, disability equality is always occupied by the people with the characteristic Yeah. Not by the by the allies and the enablers. Mhmm. And changing the wealth to be more gender equal, to give more equity to women is actually a male challenge, not a female challenge. We know what we need, we know what we want. How do we get men to listen? How do we get men in those conversations? And so it's relevant to them. It can't just be when a man has a daughter, he's suddenly become too woke to the idea. That's the excuse. Now I've had a daughter, I now get it. Well, surely should have got it 20 years ago. Why now? Yeah.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Yes. Yeah. And it I can relate to that so well. And I remember when I launched the book and that this was back in the day, we were actually allowed to meet in in physical rooms.

Joanne Lockwood: Long days. I know. Can't wait until we go back to that. Last

Antoinette Dale Henderson: January, I I launched PowerUp. And we had 100 people in the room. Within that 100, we had, Alan Stevens, came, who's who's, who's a speaker and and a coach and a good friend of mine. And he came, and I had the cameraman there. He was there, and my husband was there. Right? 3 men and 97 women and including my 2 daughters. And, we came to the q and a. And and one of the first questions was so, you know, it's great that we're looking at gender equality, but, you know, it it it's there's there's a lot of pressure on our young men these days. And if you look at the suicide rate and, you know, they're under a huge amount of pressure to how how do they need to be? What does their role need to be now? And and and I, you know, totally get the question. Totally agree with the question and answered the question. But before I did, I said, isn't it interesting that we've got a large majority of women in the audience here tonight? And we're talking about a book that is for women. And one of the first questions that guest gets asked is how can we make it better for our men? And so that as well, it's like kind of preaching to the converted that you were describing, but also we we, as women, we wanna make sure everybody is okay almost to the detriment of ourselves. So back to the question of, how how can we turn that around and and does it always have to be when a man on the board has had a daughter who's had an experience who then has a word that he then thinks, oh, yeah. Maybe we should look at that. You know, maybe we should look at our quotas. You know, what what can we do? And what I find when I'm when I'm invited to work in organizations, and I don't know whether you get the same thing, but often I get invited by, you know, where the gender equality group or or where, you know, we're running a session for International Women's Day. And so, you know, it's like there is sort of bolt on grassroots kind of group of people who want to do something about it. And so they they have, I guess, a minimal share of voice and a and minimal budget to pay for. And I'm like, what if if you do really wanna do that, then you need to do top down, bottom up, grassroots, but also from the side as well where you're looking at changing policies. You know, you look at you need to look at the entire infrastructure of an organization, whichever element of diversity and inclusion we're talking about here. And so, yeah, I I think it does require people to push back and and go to, actually, what are the business benefits of doing this? You know, if you if you look at a truly diverse, and inclusive workplace, look at the increased engagement, the increased, retention of staff. You you look at the the results that people are delivering and and, you know, you look at the staff surveys and look how happy and fulfilled people are. Measure. You know, use the data to compare. That's how you do it. You can hear me Yeah. I mean fired up about this.

Joanne Lockwood: Greg, picking up on something else you're saying earlier about me too movement and how that kind of put a fire in your belly as well. And we still are not making tangible progress, aren't we? We thought it was a middle aged old white man problem. And now Noel Clarke, the BAFTA award winning Black actor, producer, director, a younger person, a millennial is now being called into question about his own treatment of his female colleagues, people who are subordinate or whatever it may be. So it's not just an old white man problem. Is it what we were talking about 2 or 3 years ago. Mhmm.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Yeah. There there's something going wrong there, isn't there? You know, that you you think about the role models and how they're behaving and and what was perhaps perceived as okay before or or actually what's happening that's that's making people think that it's okay to behave like that. And and and there's been yeah. That there's there's been some dramas at at my my children's school recently, and there've been some, attempted adopted adoptions as well. And it's the way they've coming back and they're kind of reporting on how this has been covered in their schools and how it's being communicated is like, girls, you know, you need to watch out for yourselves. You You need to keep yourself safe, and this is happening. And and they're furious. It's like, why should it be on our shoulders to keep ourselves safe? You know, where's the education of the boys around what is the right way to be? And, you know, that that certainly is beyond my expertise. But, yeah, I do think it's quite interesting how, yeah, how how and why this is happening. You think men

Joanne Lockwood: too easily forgive other men's behaviors because maybe inside their own head thinking, yeah, I could've that could've happened to me or I could've overstepped. Do you think that's a thing? Maybe. Maybe. You know that that phrase boys will be

Antoinette Dale Henderson: boys. Yeah. It's just such a corrosive thing to say. I don't I don't know. I think everyone's different And and we have Jo sort of start with the people that we know and the people around us, the people we love. And, yeah. There are people there are the proportion of men

Joanne Lockwood: who are vocal is a lot less than vocal women about that. I'm not saying there aren't men talking out, but most of the people talking out about Noel Clark, talking out about institutional racism, etcetera, etcetera, tend to be black people. Most people talk about sexism, tend to be women. It's not the people who are on the on the side of, I say the side of the problem, the people who have influence in that space, in that privilege. Those aren't the people who stand up and say, yes, I could do better personally, I know I can do better and I'm gonna do better from now on and I'm gonna call it out as well. So we're not spreading that that momentum through men, through white people, through able-bodied people. I was watching a program, on the television last night with Joanne from Little Mix talking about tokenism as a as a Black person in the in the group and how the Sony media executives wouldn't meet and talk about the fact that she didn't have any black or or non white support within her crew and and just how she'd be felt, how she started to be feeling she's been tokenized as the token black girl for media. And couple that with her gender, with her sex, with the fact she's a girl, a woman, and her color, we're still propagating this, and we could still see that the power is held by the rich white guy still, and it's propagating it. Yes. Yeah. And and absolutely. And if

Antoinette Dale Henderson: we're thinking about kinda looking, at the world through a different pair of eyes, of course, that that demographic that you've just described there, they don't see any need to look at the world through a different pair of eyes. And, actually, for them, it's it's threatening to do so because it it it just knocks side where their their whole world view and their whole perspective on how things are and how things should be. So do you know that it's fear based? And so they're gonna hold on tooth and nail to what they know and what they have. And so I do think so, with the way culture is evolving and and how young people most young people are are being educated and are thinking and are influencing one another. I do think that things are going to change and develop. And, yeah. From a values perspective, I I think that things are are moving on. I think that those kinds of old fashioned behaviors and and perspectives, you know, that eventually before too long, those people are gonna retire. And and I'd like to think, you know, looking for the future that, you know, that will be replaced by a much more open minded way of looking at things. I think you're right. I think

Joanne Lockwood: there's a you say protectionism. I think there's a feeling that people are worried that they're gonna lose what they've got, their their cozy world. They've they fought hard to get where they are. They built up whatever they built up. Maybe they're concerned that people are gonna come at them with pitchforks and burn their house as a as a as a racist or a sexist or whatever. And maybe they are there is an element of protectionism. Or maybe there's also an element of of naivety or ignorance that they really don't believe the problem is bad. As as people say it is, maybe the I I often hear people, well, racism isn't that bad. I I I've got black friends and they're not like that or I know plenty of women and they're not talking in this way. And so do some women almost give permission to men to say it's not that bad? Are we are we is there no solidarity or when women don't experience sexual abuse, discrimination, or oppression? They they assume that everybody else is like them and that it's okay. They must be overreacting. Maybe if they grew up and became more mature, they'd be fine or they dress differently or they behave differently. Are are other women effectively down talking the poppers of other women?

Antoinette Dale Henderson: I I think that can certainly be the case. Yeah. And yeah. So so what do you do? Did you try and, like, turn around everybody who who is is in denial or holding back or disagreeing? Did you try and, like, change all of their minds or Jo would you try and go with the people who are who are already converted and and supportive of of the message, what do you do? And and I I actually think, do you know what? I think the story the the answer is about telling stories, Telling actual stories of people's true experiences and painting pictures of what it actually is like so that people can relate to it and and doing it rather than doing in a preachy way. Because if someone tells you what to think or what to do, you see this in social media all the time, then everyone is, you know, the other person is just going to dig their heels in and resist. Whereas, if you do it kind of round the back door through telling stories and evoking images and, you know, painting pictures, then then people are gonna be much more open to to starting to think about things in a different way.

Joanne Lockwood: I completely agree. I I run quite a few workshops around inclusion, belonging, conscious bias. And the most powerful element to those is when I have the privilege of hearing the stories of people on the workshop. They're brave. They stand up and say, this has happened to me. I've had people who are black talking about being stopped and searched, people who are black who've talked about being followed by supermarkets, other people who are black who talk about various aspects of being denied access to to services or just feeling like they're always a threat. I've had young women who actually aren't that young, they're in their thirties, are being told down to because they appear young. They're they're they're shorter. They're smaller. They've got a a very young looking face or their hairstyle is long, which makes them look like they're in their early twenties. And how they've been passed over, spoken over, assumes they were the junior when rather than being the manager. And just hearing these constant these experience stories where the pattern is always the same. It can't be individuals making this up. I think we heard the story when we're talking about Sarah Refford, the hashtag is not all men, but then that was repeated by the hashtag, yes, but it is all women. Every woman has a story. Every woman is could talk about how they'd be denied opportunities or or there's been averse sexism. And even women that say, well, I'm okay probably become socialized into believing that what happened to them was was okay. It's just the way women are. That's what happens to women. Yeah. Yeah.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: And exactly. And and and I think when you start to tell those stories, then people they remember. They they think, actually, no, I do remember that happened to me. And in fact, whether whether we, you know, we represent powerless or we felt squashed or or we felt like we couldn't actually express ourselves and and we we felt bullied in some way. And, you know, when when you take people to that experience and then they relate to it, if you can then attach a message around, you know, how can we ensure that this doesn't happen to other people, that's when you start to inspire change. And and and for me, the the story that I told at the start of my TEDx, it's sort of an emotional story and I've never told it before and it was, my first day at primary school. And, so I grew up just speaking French. And it was my first day at school and it was in English school. So I I didn't understand anything that anyone was saying, and it was loud and people were running everywhere, and I didn't know where to go. And I remember lunchtime, I had this food put in front of me, and I was like, what on earth is this? And I just didn't know what to do with it because it was so foreign to me. And I I remember spitting out some of the food into a water beaker and the teacher came on shouting at me. What have you done? That's disgusting. All these children looking at me and just feeling completely powerless to speak or defend or say anything. That feeling and feeling gagged actually, you know, that feeling that you just can't speak. And I think that that feeling is the feeling that you get when someone is imposing their power over you and you're powerless to do something about it, whether you're being attacked or verbally or, you know, overtly or whatever it is, that feeling that you're powerless is is just such a horrible feeling and we have all had it. And I think what people some people do is when they when they have experienced that, they kinda toughen up and they think, right. My response to that is that I will never let that happen to me again. So they then become the person who has the power over others. They exert their force and their power and then it gets perpetuated. And so it's that feeling of vulnerability, that fear, I think, that stops people from, yeah, from from from allowing themselves to be vulnerable. And I think if if you if you tap into that, if you meet people at a place like that, then if you do that, you can bring people around.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think so too. I think sure. Yeah. So COVID has been a major, in my opinion. It's really set back gender equality in the workplace and Yeah. In in the home environment. We we talk about the rise of violence against women and girls because of the lockdown, because of those tension situations that they may have, refugees that provide support out to to women who suffered domestic abuse at home. But also from from a work perspective is that it set back careers because women and I and this let's put it out there. There are many relationships where there are either same sex couples who are men. There are there are modern families where the man and the woman share responsibility or the man does most of the care. So I'm not talking about those great relationships. I'm talking about the the typical majority of the relationships that still exist where the woman is still the primary educator, the primary caregiver, the primary home admin person. And the extra burden through lockdown has meant that these people, these women cannot focus on their career. They've maybe lost their position in the queue for promotion, opportunity, training, development, or they're really just barely treading water in their role. How how do you see that the society and the work world of work correcting this because we've got to play catch up now? I think you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, there's

Antoinette Dale Henderson: there's evidence to show that, the pandemic can have put, gender equality back by a decade for all the reasons that you've just described there where, in extreme cases, women have had or have felt like they've had to make the decision to step away from their career, still working altogether to take on those care, responsibilities, at home. And and, actually, another stat which is quite interesting in is that, in the in the pandemic, if you look at people, who are in research, the submission of research papers actually increased by men. So more men, submitted clinical papers, you know, research papers, to be published in clinical papers compared to women where the research papers decreased. So there's something interesting going on there with what people were doing with the time that they had when they were working from home. But as far as what can we do about it is concerned, you know, I certainly noticed coaching, women and just eyeballing them, you know, through the screen and seeing them in their home environment just at their complete wits end with juggling, homeschooling, and holding down a high powered, high stress Jo. And and with no time left for themselves at all, no time for anything, really. And so it it's no it's no wonder that, you know, a lot of people have just found it too hard and and stepped away. You know, I I certainly remember in the career that I had, I I was in, I worked in PR communications before I set my business up. We got to sort of the age of where women were starting to have families and taking on career responsibilities. It's like, where have all the women gone? Because they would just become too hard to hold that down, as challenging job that's full of, global travel and really really long hours pitching the business, all of that. Impossible to do that with a young family which is one of the reasons why I set my business up actually because I just couldn't do all of that and have a family at the same time. Jo you you kind of increase you you multiply all of that with with the pressures that we've had over this past year, and it's no wonder that gender equality has been set back. What can we do about it? Well, I have observed that what a lot of the more enlightened organizations are doing is they're really looking at how can they create, an environment of trust, where people any, you know, people can work more flexibly. And as long as they're delivering results, you know, it doesn't matter actually how many hours they're doing or how they're doing or where they're doing. None of it matters as long as they're delivering results. So I I think that the more successful organizations and the more attractive organizations are people are are gonna be the ones which are going to make life easier for people as a result of the pandemic because in that sense, we've got the pandemic to thank for that. Hopefully, cultural change within organizations is gonna move in that direction. I hope you're right.

Joanne Lockwood: I'm still seeing so many examples of workplace trying to fall back into the traditional back to the office, and there's still this kind of if I can't see you, I can't trust you. That command and control, that old school way of working where we measure people on presenteeism, time sat at the desk. We're still not even after even after the pandemic, we're still still haven't learned about how they can manage people asynchronously, set set work, set milestones, set objectives, not being constantly in interactive meetings. We can message people and get responses tomorrow. Set the agenda so that you don't have to keep track on everybody day by day or minute by minute. But this this is still going on, and I I see so much pressure now to push people back into the office without considering the anxiety. I mean, we're still even on the news today and last night, we're talking about this Indian variant variant of the COVID. I would predict we're still not gonna be allowed on public transport or in shops without masks for a while, wherever that while may be. So people's journey to work isn't gonna be as it was. People's workplace experience isn't as it was. You know, there's no longer do we get each other coffee because we have to have our own cup. There's glass screens around everything, there's we're social distancing our office. So people have got anxiety now about going back into the workplace. And just by the very nature of how women we are socialized, we have more anxiety because we're worried about our impact on others, our caring responsibilities, our elderly parents, our children. We're not self centered. We're not just a man often just thinks about themselves and go, I'll be fine and minimizes the risk. So the difference in approach to return to the office is completely different from a from a gender perspective, I believe. And we've gotta be careful. We don't ignore the anxieties and the feelings of women pushing themselves back into an environment where their mental health, their their well-being is gonna be suffer as a result of this. I think, as you say, some companies are looking holistically at people, speaking to people, to individuals, understanding their anxieties, and building a work shape that works for them rather than being a cookie cutter. Everybody's in the office. Everybody does this. And I think that's gonna define the good companies and the bad companies is how person centric they are and how they listen and really communicate with their people about what is the best way of working for everybody.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was speaking to, head of HR earlier this week, and she was saying it's it's it's really challenging actually for people working in HR at the moment because they've got such a wide spectrum of people who were working for them. So for so people from one extreme where people are like, I don't see what the problem is. I wish you all go back to the office now anyway, and it's gonna be fine. And let's let's just crack on and get bit moving again, all the way to the other extreme where people are are still terrified of even leaving their homes. And so how can you be inclusive, and cater to that entire spectrum of people? And and they simply don't know the answer to that question. You know? But, ultimately, that there needs to be some form of decision or stake in the ground. But how are they gonna do that? So you might have people who who are happy in the office. They forget to put a mask on, and then, you know, they meet someone else who who is who is really out of their comfort zone with that. So and then it's it's it then becomes the responsibility of the individuals to be assertive enough to say, I need you to put your mask on now, which is a challenge in itself. You know, you you see it on public transport all the time. So I don't know. It's a unique challenge, isn't it? None of us have ever done anything like this before. So, yeah, it'd be fascinating to see My wife was furloughed in the early stages,

Joanne Lockwood: And then she she was, I say forced. She was put in a position where she had to return to the office on her own while other people were fellows. She was literally the only person permanent in the office every day apart from engineers visiting to collect parts for 3 months. And she found that very stressful because that was in the middle, probably about summer last year where it was kind of wasn't locked up. It was locked down, but it wasn't enforced at home, I think. So she was feeling very uncomfortable here about being there anyone in the office. She couldn't fight back. She couldn't push back to come and say, well, actually, I don't feel it safe. She could have worked from home because lo and behold, when the go stay at home order was given in December, magically she was given a laptop, magically she was given a phone, so she could work from home. So we know that she could have back then. And of course, now what happened into early April, the government advice kind of changed Joanne then they wanted everyone back in the office, but we know she can work effectively from home. And so their culture and their organization is one about pushing people back into the office, knowing full well that they work very adequately, spread desperately from home because they have the cost of the office. They've got a traditional kind of management structure where they want to see people and count people and check they're there. And they haven't evolved, they're not evolving. And this is okay. There was I say there was small business, probably 50, 60 people. But given that most people in the UK are employed by small medium businesses, 67%, I think it is, that that pervasive culture is gonna be within our society and people are gonna be pushed back. An organization's because they're paying £3,000 a month for their office, they wanna they wanna get some value from it. Sure. That's perfectly fine. So is there an

Antoinette Dale Henderson: engineering firm? My wife works for

Joanne Lockwood: a, yeah, it's a installation service company for heavy plant. Yeah. Right. So I wonder whether there's gonna be a

Antoinette Dale Henderson: distinction between the the more, mechanical engineering, you know, traditionally, I guess, masculine type organizations compared to to others. So are you Creative. Yeah. Exactly. Marketing, you know, white colliery

Joanne Lockwood: type stuff. Yeah. Exactly. Are you, do you do you speak of a

Antoinette Dale Henderson: FISTISH? I don't I don't speak of Vistage.

Joanne Lockwood: No. But I know all of them. Okay. So I'd I'd speak for Vistage, and

Antoinette Dale Henderson: and so they're a global organization. And, it's for for MDs and CEOs from small, to medium sized businesses predominantly, and different groups all around the world. And so what I speak, for Vistage. So I'd I, through the pandemic and before that, was speaking to different Vistage groups around the UK. And through the pandemic, what I've noticed is is that, you know, for in those organizations where it's more about, you know, sort of be an engineer or factories or, you know, those kinds of organizations and, companies, then there's been much more of a push to go back to the workplace. And and clearly, it would be if you've got factory workers. You know, if you if they're manufacturing product,

Joanne Lockwood: and they need to be in the Yeah. You have to. Right. You have to put something boxes and and check and load and return.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Yeah. So it's much The area my wife works in is

Joanne Lockwood: the office side. And they have field engineers. Yeah. So they don't manufacture, they have field engineers, they service. And they bring in stock to install. They don't manufacture stock, not in that office. Jo, yeah, it's it's it's I think it's tradition. It's just the office exists, therefore, we're using it. Culture. Yeah. The perspective and the perception.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Whereas on the other side, you know, I've heard, a number of the banks. So I think Metro Bank, they've closed down their office in London. You know, everyone is going to be working from home. The office there.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Right. So everyone is gonna be working from from home now. And you think

Antoinette Dale Henderson: about the Googles and the Facebooks and, you know, the large, advertising firms and all all of those, a lot of my clients said that they're not going back to work in the foreseeable. And many of them possibly won't. So yeah. But but that's a

Joanne Lockwood: challenge for the government for infrastructure because then what do you do with all the trains? What do you do with all the underground? What do you do with the public services and transport in inner cities? What do you do with all Jo much buzz? The infrastructure's built up around servicing those office blocks. So it's a real dilemma for government Yeah. And infrastructure to be able to make sure that you're not losing jobs in one hand by creating flexible jobs on the other. Exactly. Because if the city of London empties, just think of the millions or certainly hundreds of thousands of people whose jobs are at risk because there's no one for them to surface anymore. That's right. And you also think about the psychological

Antoinette Dale Henderson: impact that it's having on us as humans. You know, I'd I I used to travel around all the time. I'd be, you know, on the train to London. It's 4 days out of 5, possibly one day out of the weekend. Always always, you know, hauling my bag around and doing my thing, you know, live in person. And now, you know, not even though things have opened up, just the thought of going up to London, it's just like a bit of an effort. Do you know?

Joanne Lockwood: Don't want to. I know. It's gotta be bothered. And so, you

Antoinette Dale Henderson: know, we just need to get out more as well, I think, as human beings. Otherwise, we're gonna forget how to be sociable and then how to to to practice those kind of interpersonal skills that we all need to bring richness and life to to ourselves and to the world. But we do need to learn how to break through that. Well, I often say that being people keep

Joanne Lockwood: saying we need to socialize at work, about how work is this magic thing when we meet partners, we develop relationships, all those things. I said, well, how about we change the paradigm? We actually need to socialize at home and locally. If we have more time in our lives without community, more time in our lives where we have the flexibility at home, then maybe we have more time in our lives to do extracurricular activities, join a club, join society, have a hobby, do outside interest, and we can bring that socialization into our home environment and not feel that we've missed it from our work environment. I mean, we keep trying to retrain ourselves back into the office to say, well, that's where we get our socialization only because that's our mindset. We've we've commuted for 2 hours there, 2 hours back. What time we go home at 8 o'clock in the evening? We're burnt out. Right. We don't wanna socialize at home. And if I if I if I finish work at 5:30, I turn my computer off, I stand up, and it's sunny, I'll sit in the garden Right. Have a cup of coffee, enjoy the sun, or I might go for a walk or go for a cycle or do something else. I've definitely got the freedom of choice about what I want to engage in. But I think when we're slave to the rhythm, we're slave to that machine of work, then that's what people are trying to force us back into is is to is to switch back into the old way of thinking. And I think we need to just change what I want from life. It's less commuting, less time where I have no control over myself and more opportunity to live my life and that work life balance yet still work hard, deliver Yeah. Earn a good living and be in contact with people. So it's trying to find that balance. It

Antoinette Dale Henderson: is. Yeah. Yeah. What what are your thoughts? So don't end up on

Joanne Lockwood: a plane. You you not fly around the world anymore. Don't wanna do

Antoinette Dale Henderson: that anymore. You know? Jo you wanna see yourself back on a stage in San Francisco? I think I would do it

Joanne Lockwood: differently. I think Might say yes to Francisco. I've got an opportunity to speak in Newcastle at the end of June. And I've got a bit of anxiety about that because the talk I'm giving, I created virtually online. I've never given this talk face to face. Jo I've got this stage anxiety about, you know, I've currently got monitors, I've got screens, I've got lights, and I've got all this control with a push of a button. And suddenly, I'm now vulnerable on a stage Yeah. Trying to engage with real people. Wow. That's I'm not gonna do that.

Antoinette Dale Henderson: You're gonna absolutely love it. I think yeah. Just sort of questioning whether how I feel about going back out there and delivering, you know, whether it's courses or whether it's keynoting live again. And I never thought I'd say this, but there's a lot to be said from for just doing it from your office. And you can sparkle. You can engage, and you can get amazing feedback even if you're speaking to, like, a bad light screen and staring into your camera, you can still get the vibe that you could still feel when you're connecting, can't you? Yeah. I mean, I used to find it really challenging

Joanne Lockwood: to deliver where I couldn't see the audience. So, you know, a traditional webinar format where literally you, everyone can see but you can't see anybody. I used to find that really too hard but I saw nobody. But suddenly my brain just gone, it's okay, I know they're there. Right. It doesn't matter. I know they're there. I know they can hear me. And I get a round of applause at the end, so I'm fine. But what I still struggle with is the pre record. So I'm talking to the camera. I can't go over that, that not live because my brain knows it's not live. My brain says, oh, I made a mistake. Let's do that again. Oh, I made a mistake. Do that again. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas if I'm delivering it live, my brain knows there's a one take and it's fine. But as soon as I know I can edit it, my brain just crumbles. Yeah. I've gotta I've gotta try and learn how to talk to that black mirror Yeah. With nobody on the other side of it and one take in the same way I would even if I couldn't see the audience. And that's that's what I struggle with. I guess it's that perfectionism that we were

Antoinette Dale Henderson: talking about right at the star, isn't it? It just starts rearing its head. It's like, oh, it could be better. It could be better. You could do it again. Oh, come on. Let's do it again then.

Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm I'm delivering a a talk to the the French Professional Speakers Association. I think it's next month. And when I applied, I thought, okay, this sounds good. I knew it was gonna be online and I get an email saying, oh, we want all the speakers to send a prerecorded video and then be available on the day Yeah. To do like a live q and a after the event. I thought, you want me to record this? And I had a deadline of I think it was last Friday or the Friday before. Yeah. And I left it like we do. You leave it to the last minute and think, well, okay. I've got I've got the opportunity here for 3 takes. I delivered the first one. I was 8 minutes over. I thought, okay. I'm gonna try and chop 8 minutes off of this. Deliver the second one, and I was so worried about going over Yeah. That I kinda lost my train. I found out that and I watched it back and thought. I loved the the energy in the first one, but it was too long. The energy in the second one, I thought was a bit flat, but it was just the right length. I thought Yeah. Go ahead. I'm just gonna send you the one that's the right length. I just gotta send it to you. And I'm being overcritical. I I know it was probably my own mindset that I was wrestling with. Yeah. Rather than why I delivered. So I sent it off to them and they said it was great, it's fine, it's on the agenda. So And that's the thing, isn't it? Is that is a classic glass brick you

Antoinette Dale Henderson: just described there. It's like, it needs to be perfect, and we're not gonna get there. I remember when I applied for my TEDx. And, again, I kinda left it until the last minute. I got an email on the day before saying, well, thank you for the written submission, but we need a video from you. And I open only opened that email when we we were literally driving down to the Kent Coast to go camping. And I was like, oh, well, normally, if I was gonna record something like that, I get it all set up, do the lighting, make it all nice, But I was in a field with my phone. So I slept on some lippy, and my family's like, Antoinette, why are you putting lipstick on now? We're camping. I was like, I just need to go and do something in the car. Put myself in the car. And there were people putting tents up all around us, noise of, you know you know, children running around and stuff. And I just recorded this thing and managed to get just about enough reception to send it and sent it. And it was fine. You think why should I put so much pressure on ourselves to make things perfect? I know. I know. I know. Well, that's

Joanne Lockwood: it. You know? 10 minutes is enough. Yeah. And there's a huge psychological difference between live and recording yourself. I I I I'm sure you you probably felt the same that that suddenly you've got this this perception, but you can watch it back and go, I don't like that. Yeah. But if you're live, you don't see yourself, do you? No. I never watch I never watch the recordings of me back. I don't wanna do that to myself. Oh, I do. I I watch the recordings

Antoinette Dale Henderson: back, you know, because I I always ask my clients if I can record it and, you know, put together show reels and things. And I watch them back and I'm like, oh, I remember that bit when I fluffed that thing or Dora said that completely wrong or forgot forgot to do. I remember that that laughing to myself on the inside of my head and pressing on regardless. And I often say this to people when I'm coaching them around that, you know, have Joanne They're like, oh god. You know, I'm worried that I wanna forget something and all this. No one knows and no one cares. Even if they do notice, they don't care. So just have a little laugh on the inside and keep going. And actually, it made you more authentic, wasn't it? Yeah. You're right completely.

Joanne Lockwood: And I've I have listened to some of my stuff back, but I've gone to subtitle it and things like this. And what I realized is there are so many times when I was speaking I don't finish the sentence. I get half it through a sentence and then go off on something else. I think I didn't base why I just said this didn't make sense. I didn't feel what I

Antoinette Dale Henderson: was gonna say. That's deliberate, though, isn't it, though, Joanne? That's a nested loop right there. You open the loop, and then you come back to it later, don't you?

Joanne Lockwood: I think that's oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it just goes to show that when we're talking in real life, that we must do that all the time. Conversation gets interrupted. Sentence gets interrupted. We wander off. We come back. And but when we just ourselves back, we we spot this because we knew what we've we're gonna say. We didn't say it. But

Antoinette Dale Henderson: that's that's what makes a lovely authentic conversational style, I think. I mean, we we don't like that sort of back to the statesman like gravitas. I'm going to deliver a powerful message. You know, it's all scripted in advance. We

Joanne Lockwood: Oh, the Toastmaster style. Oh, yeah. The God. It just doesn't

Antoinette Dale Henderson: work, does it? I remember coaching this guy, and it was it was a 2 day authentic presentation skills course in America. And there was a guy, and he came in, and he is like one of those classic kinda silver haired fox types. And I was like, oh, this is gonna be interesting. And, he said, yeah. I've taught myself. I've ironed out every verbal tick. I have no more sos and likes and you knows and things like that. And it was true. When we when he first did his first presentation, it was like, this is like listening to an actual robot because it was just it was just message, message, message delivered completely dispassionately. And it's like, right. We need to bring back some of you into the way you talk. By the end of the second day, it was so much more engaging. So I think, you you know, often people get coached. Do this. Do that. Talk deeper. You know, leave these things out. Say this. Be authentic. You know, do this gesture, and you you end up ironing out the whole lesson of your life. Like this and a power pose

Joanne Lockwood: and Often we get

Antoinette Dale Henderson: told fake it till you make it. It's like, for goodness sake, that's please don't do that. Now don't try and be somebody else until you finally figured out who you are. Start with who you are and build out from there. People will love you

Joanne Lockwood: for it. People will love you for being you. If you love yourself, you're happy with yourself. Be yourself. And that's that's all you could ever ask, isn't it?

Antoinette Dale Henderson: That's what most people. Yeah. That that and and we all need to come back to that, I think. There's one we do, and then we might change that. We've been rabbiting on as

Joanne Lockwood: we as we have. We're absolutely engaging conversation. And so how tell tell us a bit more about your book. Tell us a bit more about how people can get in contact with you. And, yeah, please, yeah, tell us all about that. Okeydokes. Well, there are

Antoinette Dale Henderson: 2 books. There is the Leading with Gravitas, and I've literally just about to launch the 2nd edition of that on the 4th June, in 3 weeks time from now. And that is all around what this intangible thing called gravitas is, how you can create your own version of it rather than trying to be like anybody else. There's a whole load of content in there around remote communication and how you can make the most of communicating in a virtual environment. There's a brand new chapter on leading your yourself, your teams, your organizations leading through change. So that's the first one. And then the second one is the one that I mentioned launching a year ago, which is Power Up, the smart women's guide to unleashing her potential. And and, really, that's for anyone who wants to accelerate their career, through their organization, by starting with who they are. Both of those, you can get on my website or Amazon or any online bookstore. So those are the books. And then if people are interested in working with me, I run a couple of, open programs. There's a gravitas master class a couple of times a year that people can come along to. There's a 2 day gravitas for women course. All information on all of that is on my website, antoinettedalehenderson dotcom, as well as information on my coaching as well. Do you need LinkedIn? People can

Joanne Lockwood: track you down there. Yeah. So LinkedIn and Instagram,

Antoinette Dale Henderson: Antoinette Dale Henderson. And, yeah, come and say hi if you got any questions. Let's link in. Let's connect, and, I would love to have a conversation with you. I'll put all

Joanne Lockwood: of those details in the show notes. So if you look below, you can click on them and and find out. Jo, well, thank you. I've really enjoyed that. I could have carried on talking for another hour. It's absolutely amazing and fascinating to have a a really deep conversation with you. I really enjoyed it as

Antoinette Dale Henderson: well. Thank you. Yeah. Brilliant. And a huge thank you to

Joanne Lockwood: the listener. Amazing that you stuck with us. Tell us what you think. If you've got, friends and colleagues, please tell them. I'm sure that you're not alone. So please do tell them about the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up, and I'm sure you'd be inspired by it over the next few weeks months. And, of course, if you'd like to be a guest, let me know. I'd welcome any comments, feedback, or suggestions on how we can improve the show. So email me, jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. So finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and this has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.