--- title: "Secrets from the habitologist" episode: 38 date: 2021-07-29 guest: "Tony Winyard" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/38-secrets-from-the-habitologist audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-038/audio.mp3 --- # Secrets from the habitologist Joanne Lockwood talks with Tony Winyard about why lasting change tends to come from starting small. Tony explains how his work in health and his training in the “Tiny Habits” approach helped him move beyond simply sharing information, to supporting people to implement better sleep, nutrition, movement and breathing through micro-changes that become automatic. They explore what makes habits stick, including enjoyment, consistency, and reducing the pressure of unrealistic goals. Both share personal examples, from building fitness through short, manageable cycling sessions to lessons learned from public speaking and stand-up comedy about pacing, pausing, and making messages land. The conversation also moves into inclusion and communication: how language, speed, idioms and media narratives shape understanding, bias and belonging. Tony shares lived experience of being mixed race while often being perceived as white, and how that has influenced what he’s witnessed and learned about racism and identity. Joanne reflects on assumptions, the fear of getting things wrong, and the value of emotional intelligence in connecting with people across difference. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Start small and build up for success. - 07:45 — Worked as DJ, radio contributions in Indonesia. - 14:53 — Gave up DJing, tried financial advising, regretted. - 18:19 — Raised prices after wedding epiphany in London. - 25:59 — Travelled extensively, adapting communication for clarity. - 28:08 — Ensure language is understandable for international audiences. - 34:56 — Beat by semi-pro, excelled in Melbourne comedy. - 43:00 — Assumptions complicate understanding of diverse identities. - 43:54 — Struggles with identity and confronting prejudices. - 53:41 — Understanding racial inequality's societal impact, despite privilege. - 56:35 — Content without constant news, informed selectively. - 01:00:52 — Media skews perceptions of Africa and Middle East. - 01:06:11 — Coaching and group programs for health issues. ## Key takeaways - The importance of starting small with habit formation, focusing on enjoyment and consistency to make habits stick. - The impact of mixed-race heritage on personal identity and experiences of racism. - How media consumption influences perceptions and biases, and the benefits of reducing mainstream media exposure. - Insights into cultural adaptability and the importance of clear, empathetic communication in diverse settings. - Personal anecdotes illustrating the role of timing and pauses in effective storytelling and stand-up comedy. - Lessons on valuing one's work and adjusting pricing strategies to reflect true worth. - The transition from a transient lifestyle to finding fulfilment through emotional intelligence and self-awareness. ## FAQs ### Who are the speakers in this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast? The speakers are Joanne Lockwood, the host, and Tony Winyard, the guest. Joanne Lockwood is a prominent advocate for inclusive cultures and Tony Winyard is a habitologist known for his work in helping individuals develop automatic habits. ### What is Tony Winyard's background? Tony Winyard is of mixed-race heritage, with a Sudanese father and an English mother. He looks white, although he was born in Sudan and has siblings who look black. Tony has lived in 11 countries and worked as a DJ, radio presenter, and now runs a business called Habits and Health. ### What are the key themes discussed in this podcast episode? Key themes include identity and racial issues, the psychology and techniques behind habit formation, the influence of media on perception, structural racism, cultural adaptability, and the importance of clear communication. ### What experiences did Tony share regarding structural racism and discrimination? Tony recounted his experiences growing up in London during the 1970s and 80s, where he faced less overt racism due to his lighter skin but witnessed his black peers suffer frequent police harassment. The discussion also covered broader issues of structural racism and discrimination in policing, employment, and societal constructs. ### How does Tony Winyard approach media consumption? Tony avoids mainstream media, choosing not to own a television or read newspapers for decades. He prefers to selectively engage with current events via social media, finding this approach reduces stress and leads to a more balanced viewpoint. ### What is the significance of Tony's quiz and free five-day programme? Tony offers a quiz and a free five-day programme through his business, Habits and Health, aimed at helping people take control of their habits, focusing on positive changes in areas like sleep, nutrition, and mindset. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have interviewed a number of amazing people that simply had a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 38 with the title, secrets from the habitologist. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Tony Winyard. Tony describes himself as someone who helps people create habits that become automatic. When I asked Tony to describe his superpower, he said, it is the ability to assimilate pretty quickly to most places that he goes. Hello, Tony. Welcome to the show. Hi, Jo. It's great Tony Winyard: to be here. So thank you for inviting me. No. It's absolute pleasure. I've been Joanne Lockwood: looking forward to this, for a long time, meeting some of the, the show notes you've put together beforehand that you've had a pretty interesting life and I love it. Can't wait to find out more. Jo, Tony, when we talked earlier, we talked about, you have a nickname of of the hepatologist. And so what are the secrets of a hepatologist? Tony Winyard: So the reason how that came about was I interviewed someone on my podcast, a few months ago, and they I'm trying to remember what their title was, but their title was somethingologist. It was about something that they did, and it's it's it's gone through my mind. But it stuck me, and I thought that was quite unique. And at the time, I was training to become a tiny habits coach. And and I just played around with the habitologists, and I looked around on Google and see if many anyone was using it. And it originally, it was just something for a bit of fun. And a couple of people said they quite liked it. So I I don't use it often, but I do use it sometimes. That's neat too. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, when I talk, in the DNI space around bringing change, a lot of it is around nudges, which I guess are tiny habits, small micro changes around process, around beliefs, about framing that can have a huge impact. So is that what you do in terms of creating these new habits? Yeah. Tony Winyard: Well, yeah, it very much is. And and how it all came about really was I've been for a few years now I've been immersing myself in studying in various areas of health, so nutrition and sleep and movement and breathing and and so on. And I I found I had a very good knowledge about all of this. And I was able to give people lots of knowledge, but that wasn't really necessarily helping them implement the things I was talking about into their everyday of life and actually maybe eating better or sleeping better or whatever the case was. And when I discovered this book, tiny habits, that was kind of like the missing piece of the puzzle because then I was able to help people make it into a habit to sleep better or into a habit to eat better or whatever the case was. Joanne Lockwood: We we keep looking for these massive changes in in our lives sometimes, don't we? And it becomes unrealistic, unsustainable, unfulfillable. We wanna lose all this weight. We wanna become fitter. So we always embark on these big ticket programs, which don't hit the mark, do they? So tiny habits, a way of achieving a goal without investing your life into it. It's just incremental. Tony Winyard: Yeah. And it has to start small because if you try to start to if you want to run a marathon, you don't start running 20 miles every day because it's you're probably gonna fail. But if you start by running just around the block and then you slowly build up and, you know, and you scale up over time, you're more likely to succeed. And that's the same for anything, really. We it's if we can start very small and it could even be just as small as, well, I'm gonna start running, but I'm not maybe I'm not really so keen on running. You just put your shoes out in front of the door. You're you're running shoes in front of the door. And maybe for the 1st couple of days, you don't even run, but you just see the shoes there and it puts it in your mind. And then you build up from there. But, yeah, if you start off tiny, you're more likely to succeed in whatever behavior you're trying to automate. That's interesting. I I I'm Joanne Lockwood: most people would probably describe me as unfit, and I I wouldn't disagree with them. I need to do something about my activity, and I we moved our house recently into the countryside, and I decided that my my new habit was gonna be go for cycle ride. So I bought a bicycle, and it I I had a overambitious expectation of my own physical ability. I thought, oh, I can jump on a bike. I said, it can't be that difficult. I've I've used to ride a bike every day to school and in my I've been to center parks like you do. And I suddenly realized that I'm now 56, very overweight, and that I'm not as fit as I thought I was. And, my first five miles, I think I felt like I needed oxygen when I got home and I did it. I made it. I cracked it. I went to the place and came back again. But I've now I'm gonna readjust my expectations, and I'm gonna do probably a quarter mile for a week and then then half a mile that I've got. I know where the next lamppost is, and I'm just gonna aim by the lamppost or aim by the trees and then try and build it up. So you're you're quite right. And I think if I keep holding on to this, I must achieve this massive goal. I'd have now I'll never do it, but I think just something realistic. 10 minutes is is not a is not a defeatist. It's a realism. And I think you're quite right. Well, and another element Tony Winyard: of what you just said, because by when it sounded from what you were saying, when you did that 5 miles, it wasn't fun. And if it's not fun, you're unlikely to repeat it again. But if you make it very short, you're more likely to enjoy it. And that's a massive part of making something automate, you know, automate. You have to enjoy it. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. My goal, and this is my vision, is pick up on a Sunday morning, cycle to the farm shop, pick up some eggs and bacon, cycle home and cook it. So my test cycle was to the farm shop and back. But when I got back, I was in no fit state to cook anything. Jo so that's the bit I gotta work on. It's better get there and back and enjoy it and be able to talk when I get home and be able to enjoy cooking the food when I bought it. So, yeah, I know I can do it now. I know it's within my reach. I just now need to improve that and, and go off more regular cycles. But, yeah, so it's really interesting about this habits thing, and I think I've already sussed out. I need to develop the habit Mhmm. Of looking out the window and going, now I could do 10 minutes while I'm thinking. This before, I was thinking, oh, I need to wait. I need to find an hour or 2 to do this. Mhmm. I don't. I just need to think, like, I think in 10 minute chunks. I can go down to the end of the road and back again. Yeah. That's still a win, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. Tony Winyard: It's a much bigger win. It's yeah. Consistency. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've had a you've had a pretty fantastic life where I can read from what you sent me. You've lived in 11 countries. Yeah. And you're just radio presenting as well in your past. That and that sounds really intriguing. Tell me tell me about that. Tony Winyard: Yeah. I I've worked on radio in a few different countries. And in one of the countries, I was in Indonesia for a few years. And I I was at the time, I was working as a DJ in a nightclub in Indonesia. And the the kind of equivalent of Capitol Radio, I'm from London, so Capitol Radio is my, you know, how are the landmark I would use. And the equivalent of Capital Radio in Jakarta was a station called Tulijayo, and they asked me and the the local DJ I work with to come into their station to interview on their breakfast show. And I'd already worked on radio in some other countries previously. And at the end of the interview, I just I made a couple of comments about the station and some improvements I thought that they might be interested in that would make this show run smoother and and some other things. I can't even remember what it was I suggested. But they turned around to me and say, well, why don't you have your own show? And I was, yeah. Okay. And and then I so I started doing a weekly show, and they gave me complete carte blanche into whatever music I wanted to play because I had a pretty good music knowledge Joanne collection. But the more interesting thing happened was I was the only native English speaker on the station. And Jakarta is a city of 8, 9,000,000 people. And it's quite a a lot of major artists perform in Jakarta on their Asian leg of their tour, like, major, major artists. And so a lot they were often getting interview slots for some of these people. And they started to ask me, would I interview the people? Not because I was any thing special as an interviewer, but because I spoke English as in my native language. And so I got to interview Jon Bon Jovi and Cindy Crawford and Steven Seagull and you be free. All sorts of very famous people. As I said, not because I was anything special, but because I was a native English speaker. Joanne Lockwood: That's fascinating. I mean, that must have been kind of I guess, from the start, you must have had that that the nerves were sort of, like, shaky Joanne, wobbly voice. Are you in awe? Or did you overcome that pretty quick? Now Tony Winyard: I'm I wasn't. Now I wasn't in awe. I for some reason, I've never had that I don't get that kind of, starstruck thing. But what I where I did go wrong, and it's actually it's interesting interesting to something that we were talking about before we started recording. You you talked about your style that you like to do to show the kind of conversational style. And at the start of these interviews, I was doing a ton of research on every person I was interviewing. I had all these all this information about them, the things they did and when they'd released records and films and whatever it was. And I was just asked going for a series of questions in these the first few of the, interviews that I did. And it took me a while to realize that there was no flow. It was just a series of questions. And and then I can't remember who it was. But for one interview, I thought what I'm been doing hasn't really been working. Maybe I just need to have a conversation and be confident enough to not have any information on the person and just simply to have a conversation and see how that goes. And it went so much better. And I never knew where the episode was going to go, where the conversation was going to go. And the the interviews were a 100, sometimes better. And I've just always done interviews that way ever since. And that was in in the mid nineties, something like that. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I often sort of beat myself up because I feel like I'm winging it. But sometimes, winging it is actually more natural, more authentic, more interesting when when I don't know where the conversation's going, you don't know the conversation's going, and therefore the listener is following on that. As you say, if I if I was too prescriptive here and I've got your bio out and I ask you all this stuff, it's gonna sound quite, you know, almost like fake or or prepared. Well, I've done I don't know about you. I've been on Tony Winyard: some podcasts where I have just been the the the host has just had a series of questions. I I remember one was it was literally just question after question, and there wasn't any connection between the questions. And it was so stunted. There wasn't any flow to it at all. Yeah. I Jo a Joanne Lockwood: lot of panel shows, for corporate events. So they they want me to present or I often try and encourage them to interview me live and get the q and a going for the audience. And they always want me to give them a whole load of questions or give them all the all the things. I said, well, look, can't we just make it obviously Jo? But I suppose that requires a confidence in the host, doesn't it? And I suppose I've gotta be careful here that I'm not imprinting my confidence into somebody else who may not have it. So, yeah, it it's it's nice to have a few prepared questions, I guess, but it's nice to go off piece quite quickly. Mhmm. Well and Tony Winyard: and, actually, I I had a couple of comments from some of these, like, mega stars who and they were being interviewed all day long by various radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, and so on. And a couple of times, these conversations, as I say, just went off on a real tangent. And a couple of times, the start the end of the interview would say, wow, I really enjoyed that because we covered some ground. I haven't covered in any every other interview has just been question after question, but we discussed some stuff today that I haven't brought up in any of the interviews. And so that reinforced my confidence to continue doing that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Brilliant. Is so you worked in 11 countries around the world. You did a lot of DJ ing. You met a lot of celebrities, became a kind of like a an A list hangar outer. And what you came back to the UK after that, after a few years to 2? Yeah. I'd I mean, it sounds very glamorous. And in some Tony Winyard: ways, it was. I mean, I was yeah. I worked in all those different countries, and I was being usually the I was working the best club in each of the cities that I was working in. And so the club was usually 4, and it was people wanted to know the DJ. And I was it was good, and it but eventually, I got tired of it. I got tired of virtually living out of a suitcase and going to a country where I didn't know anybody. I'd made lots of good friends. And then there was always a scene at the airport where I've got all these people saying goodbye to me. And I know I'm probably never going to see most of them again. And then I go to another country and I start this whole thing fresh. And after a while, it was a combination of, I got tired of that after a while, but also I'd been away from England for 12 years. I thought, yeah, maybe but the first 10 years, I didn't miss England at all. Whenever anyone said to me, are you gonna go back to London? My reaction was normally, why would I wanna go back there? But then eventually I started to miss things. And plus at the same time, my mom started to lose her eyesight And I thought, okay, now is a good time to go home. So, yeah, after 12 years, I I returned. Joanne Lockwood: The DJ ing or or something else? Well, and yeah, Tony Winyard: I I also got fed up with club DJ ing, so I didn't want to continue working as a DJ, but I didn't, I wasn't really qualified to do anything else. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. And my best friend who I'd known since we're, like, we're the same age and we're we're 14 days apart in our birthdays, and we went to the same school and everything, and our parents know each other. And he's he was working as a financial adviser, and he had we had way too many clients. And he said, Artem, why don't you come and work with me? I can't handle all these clients I've got, and I can we can get you trained as a financial adviser. And so I did that. I went forward to train him. And it was such a big mistake because I am just not cut out to do something like that. I I had a ball in having a I I made no money at it because I didn't have any belief in what I was doing. And, but then what happened, I ended up people were offering me DJ work, but this time as a wedding DJ, which is very different to a club DJ. And so I ended up doing that just to make some money because I wasn't making any money in in trying to sell financial services. And so I ended up working as a as a wedding DJ. Wow. That's a Joanne Lockwood: big difference. So Jo your was it transit van, a load of load of amps and speakers and lights on on the on the road kicking it for you? Yeah. And it started off. I because Tony Winyard: I'd been away for so long, I didn't really have a reputation. You know? And and as I say, a wedding DJ, the typical person, a couple who is gonna book you for a wedding, they would never have heard of me as a club DJ, especially I'd been away for so long. So my reputation didn't count for anything as far as weddings were concerned. And so I started off almost at the bottom of the rung earning really poor money and not particularly been respected. I mean, it wasn't a great experience at the beginning. Joanne Lockwood: But I found that as a professional speaker. You do your first your first gigs now. I always think about when I watch the Freddie Mercury film and the history of Queen. Literally all these mega bands, all these world famous rock stars all started off lugging their kit in the back of a transit in a in a dirty, dingy, smelly pub somewhere and then moving on to the next venue the next night. And I think as performers, whether you're a comedian, whether you're a DJ, whether you're a speaker, wherever you are, you've gotta break that that ground. You've gotta you've gotta kinda do those backstreet venues. Mhmm. Because it's a good test of your metal as well as it it is your confidence. You're used to the heckling. You're used to the customer service dealing with situations. I think if you just go straight onto stage and get it big, you don't have that same depth to your personality, do you? Tony Winyard: No. And I and I had done all of that kind of mobile DJ. And initially, before I became a club DJ, I'd started off when I was 15, 16, 17, doing that kind of thing. And my goal then was to be a club DJ, and I was doing everything I could to get in clubs, which was very different to working in pubs. And and and so I managed to to get into the club scene, which was a a story in itself. But then when I found myself back into that scene, and I'm now it's 20 years later, and I'm a very different person. But it yeah. It slowly improved. And I I think that the where there was one event where I had this kind of epiphany almost where I was doing a wedding, and, it was in a venue in Old Street in Central London. And the venue owner came up to me, and he was this really tall guy. And he he sort of looked down at me, said, how much do you charge, mate? And I I said, a £150. He said, well, I have DJ's charging double. That will you charge a £150 for? And he he said this line that I'll never forget. He said, you're selling a Ferrari for the price of a 4 Cortina, mate. And he said, you wanna up your prices. And so the next day I was thinking, why am I charging 150? And I realized I was charging that because that's what everyone was charging. And so I didn't really think about what I should be charging. I just thought, well, that's what I have to charge because everyone else is charging. I literally doubled my price. And the next time I went to meet someone about doing their wedding, I thought there's no way they're gonna book me. Yeah. When it when I say 300. And I soon found that everyone was still booking me. It didn't make any difference to my booking rate. And then everything changed inside my head because then I realized, oh, I've got control over my prices. And before that, I hadn't given it any thought. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's I I when you're pricing things, you can either work a lot for a little or you can work a little for a lot, and it's just changing the ratio somewhat, but having that self belief, that value proposition, understanding your worth, and then finding the clients that value your worth. And she say, you'd rather do 5 nights at 1 at at at at at 300 than 10 nights at 1:50. It just makes more sense, doesn't it? Mhmm. And often you find that you do the same amount of work but earn more money for that work or you earn the same money, but do half the work or quarter of the work. And that's the ratio and that that's the confidence as you build your business, isn't it? Tony Winyard: Well and yeah. And once I had that realization that I had a lot more control, I went, I mean, it just a change from 300 in and by that was around the early 2000. And by the early, teens, you know, 2012 or 13, I was charging probably about 8 times that I was in around £2,000 for a wedding. But then I was offering far more because I'd I'd trained myself in many different areas. I trained myself in to be a master of ceremonies. I'd done a lot of public speaking training. I'd and, and I'd done other things that had no connection with DJ Joanne like comedy and improvisation and emotional intelligence and all these other areas which helped me to reach a different type of client. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The value add. None you weren't just nothing wrong with being just a DJ, but you you were adding more value, which is what the clients perceived. And as you say, you are finding different opportunities than you would have before. And I suppose your reputation traveled further. Once you're in that different market, you don't compete. Yeah. You set you set the standard, don't you, at that point? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And it didn't Tony Winyard: You mentioned emotional intelligence. You mentioned you mentioned Joanne Lockwood: emotional intelligence, and you said you trained in it. So I'm a I'm a great believer in when we when I talk about DNI and inclusion around one of the biggest anxieties people have is the fear of getting it wrong. How do I have a conversation with someone who has a disability? How do I have a conversation with black when I'm white? How do I engage with people who are different to me? And I always come back to this emotional intelligence. It's about knowing how to have a conversation with anybody, therefore, everybody is accessible to you. And it's the basic skills around reading people, the open questions, being able to pick up on empathy, compassion, we how how people are reacting to you. It's all of that kind of stuff built in, isn't it? So what what where has it taken you in that in that sort of experience? Tony Winyard: Emotional intelligence made quite a big difference because it helped me see things in a very different way. It helped me. It it wasn't actually just in my at the time, I would just dived into studying and reading a lot on all sorts of different subjects. And I'm I remember around that same period as I was learning more about emotional intelligence and how to use it and how that would help me with the people that I was speaking with and trying to find new clients and whatever the case might be. But I also, at the same time, learned not to see myself as a victim. Jo that wasn't so much emotion intelligence. That was some of the psychology stuff I was working. And that up until then, I think I sometimes did see myself as a victim, and it wasn't helping me in any way. So it was a combination of those two things really, really changed my my thinking. And, I think I've enjoyed life a lot more since then. Joanne Lockwood: Mind me asking, why did you feel a victim? What led you to feel that? Well, I was going through Tony Winyard: a difficult separation with my ex, and I had to take her to court a few times to see my daughter because she wasn't letting me see my daughter. And so I was and there were some kind of horrible things that went on, but instead of, yeah, I was playing the victim too too much in that whole situation. And rather than taking responsibility where I I was at fault as well, there she was definitely at fault for some things, but there were things where I was down to fault. I I was at fault, and I wasn't taking responsibility for that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It I someone taught me or made me aware of the fact that you have to be accountable for your own actions, your own footprint, your own impact on the world. And once you can understand who you are and how people perceive you, that self awareness, that makes you a better person in the world because you have that self awareness and you're you don't want to be a negative impact on on anybody else because of that. It's waking up and and appreciating that is a real awakening, I found. I I think also and to touch back on earlier, you know, I mentioned about Tony Winyard: when I was working in all those different countries, something that I learned when I was doing that whole kind of, you know, I was in working around Europe and the Middle East and the Far East and which were all very different environments and very different culturally. And and I learned for start, initially, I had to speak very differently because when I first left London, I had quite a strong London accent. And I realized that people couldn't understand me. I was talking too fast. I was using slang. And so I taught myself to speak much slower, to, you know, get rid of the slang. And and then each of the countries I was in were were I mean, from some countries that are very rich, like Japan and Switzerland, to some countries that are extremely poor, like Indonesia and Syria. And so there were some very extremes. And I taught myself to how to I learned quickly how to adapt to very different situations, you know, and the way that I would the people I was meeting and the way they were responding to me was very different. So that taught me a lot, I think, about emotional intelligence in some ways as well. Joanne Lockwood: That's interesting you mentioned that. I I I travel quite extensively in my early thirties. I was to work for an international private bank, which had offices in many countries, mainly the higher end of the food chain, so the more affluent market. And I also also a member of a club which I call my student being the national president at one point and that was an international club and I used to go on lots of international trips, staying in people's houses in various countries Joanne then living with with with the culture. And I I learned, this was probably back in the mid to late nineties I started this, where the level of English spoken by people who lived in other parts of Europe or other parts of the world wasn't as advanced as it is today. People were learning English, but not fluently. And so I I learned pretty quickly that you had to speak with a rhythm, with a certain pace, be very conscious about the words that you would use in your language. And I wouldn't say being patronizing, but being very deliberate about what you were trying to say in a way that was clear and not as you drift into Yeah. Localisms or slang or rolling your words together. So I got very used to talking in this very understandable way. And people used to say to me, you're so easy to talk to. You're so easy to understand. And I've always held that belief that make yourself easy to understand. If you want to be heard and truly listened to, take responsibility to make sure you communicate in a way that people do listen to you. And I I still hold that dream today and I still find that people give me feedback and say, I speak in a very clear, very evenly paced, interesting way, very clear of voice. And I think, okay, I don't know where that came from, but obviously, over my lifetime, spending my time in different cultures with different languages, you get used to communicating in a way that is less complex maybe or un without unnecessary complexity. Tony Winyard: And I wonder also if you've well, something that I've it's only recently that I realized this because I I guess it I just took it for granted from for many years. In the last year or last couple of years, there's been a couple of situations where, some people, well, I can just think of one example in particular where a friend of mine who's doing these online courses, he's creating these courses, which have been sold to people in many different countries. And he hasn't really traveled that much. And he was asking me for feedback on some of the copy he was using and some of the things he was signing in the sales videos. And I said to him, what these are going to to to Canada. You told me that you've got clients in Canada and Mexico and some places in South America. And they're not going to understand some of these words you're using. And he hadn't even crossed his mind because they were just words that he used every day. But I knew from being in all those different countries that there were many words that we use on a just without even thinking that people in some other countries, although they've learned English, they just don't understand some of the idioms and phrases that we use. And Joanne Lockwood: we forget. We pick a lot of our common language up from television, TV, the metaphor, similes, and you say the idioms we use tend to be very contextual, which don't translate. And Mhmm. We've gotta be really, really careful that we're not misinterpreted. It's something we we we think we've said is clear. And they and I've had people say to me, what do you mean by that? I go, oh, you're right. There's no context there, is there? There's no background to that phrase that came out of a seventies TV program. Jo, yeah, it's been really, really sanitizing your language to make it understand understandable, but you're trying to do that on the fly without sounding patronizing, without sounding, like you're treating somebody as the stupid or an idiot, which can come across if you try too hard, but being very natural and flowing and being very well paced. And I think speed of talking is very important as well. Allowing pauses, allowing reflection time, gaps between words. Again, it not just helps people who where English is in the first language, but also someone who lip reads, someone who is is looking for that that clue for maybe the hard of hearing, whatever that may be, is allowing time to process as well as not rather than just rush people into the next point. Tony Winyard: Yeah. And and also, I mean, what you just said there reminded me of a story about the pause is so important in so many different areas of life. I mean, certainly in the situations you were talking about, but it also by having that pause and slowing the pace down, it allows people to whose net who is native language, maybe not English. They've got time to think about what it was you're saying and understand what you're saying. But the story that it really reminded me of, I was doing I did I dabbled in some stand up comedy a few years ago. And I had this little some sketch that I'd written or a series of sketches. And I was trying my hand in different comedy clubs and I wasn't trying to be a comedian. I was just trying to see if I could, I wanted to make people laugh because of the speaking I was doing, and I wanted to be able to inject more humor into my speaking. So I thought, well, this is the true test. If I can make people laugh in a comedy club. Anyway, I had all this my my, whole approach was mostly story led. I didn't really do sort of gags or such. But because I hadn't done this before, I wasn't supremely confident that I was a very good comedian. And for the first couple of gigs I did, I just sort of told a story, bang straight into another story straight. And I didn't really leave any time for people to get some of the stories that I was saying. And so I wasn't getting many laughs. At the 4th gig, I don't know why, but I felt more confident for some reason. It was a maybe it was a nicer atmosphere or something. There was more people. And there was one particular story I had, which was a real wordplay. And at the end of this story, with the kind of wordplay, I paused And the reaction I got, it was only a slight a small pause. And I was about to go on to the next story. And I literally had people standing up and cheering and giving almost, like, a standard narration. Wow, what a difference. Just by pausing for a couple of seconds before moving into the next story. That that sold me a huge huge amount. I've done a couple of stand ups. I must say a Joanne Lockwood: couple. I've done one routine. I did it 4 or 5 times, and I learned very quickly you have to let the audience laugh. You have to create space for the audience to find something funny. Otherwise, as you say, without the pause, there's no opportunity for someone to for the joke to land, is there? You have to create that space. Obviously, Lockwood kicked in and I haven't furthered the stand up, but I'm not sure I enjoyed it. It's a bit like we talked at the beginning about these small habits. I volunteered to do it because it was way outside of my comfort zone. It was like this big thing that I was scared of. I thought, well, if I'm scared of it, I've gotta do it. And as a professional speaker, I'm used to getting up on stage. So it wasn't it wasn't the fear of the stage. It was just I don't know. It was there was a fear there that I wasn't happy with. And I remember the Professional Speaking Association, and each year at the conference, there's a a 5 minute comedy slot where any any member could stand up and and sort of book a slot, and you get 5 minutes. So I remember sort of the convention beforehand saying to the person who's organizing it, I'd like a comedy slot next year. And they said to me, you're in. You're the first. Tick. Got it. I thought, oh, it's a year away. No problem at all. About 48 hours before the night, I thought I need to do something. I need I need to have a routine. I'm sure other people have rehearsed and practiced, but that's not my style. I tend to be a kind of a it what it comes to my head, it pops into my mouth and it goes out. And I had a whole load of routine. I had I had 4 or 5 stories, which were actually life anecdotes that I knew individually they were funny. I knew individually I knew them, so I had a routine. I pieced them together in a path and a storyline that worked with a big punch line at the end, you know, the closing punch line, the the big laugh. And I delivered it to to this this stage, and, I didn't win the prize that night. I was beaten by a a semi pro after dinner speaker who was was doing this routine night in, night out, so I didn't feel too bad about it. But I felt I held my own against the other competitors. And then I was traveling to Australia to speak at a conference over there in Melbourne. And another person, a friend of mine, who was also traveling to the same conference to speak mentioned the fact they were gonna do their stand up routine at a comedy club in Melbourne, downtown Melbourne one night. I just emailed back and said, any chance, you could give me the details because I I I'll book a slot at the comedy either. So however many 1000 miles from home on a Tuesday night and this company club in Melbourne, I stand up and give my routine again. And, yeah, the feedback I got from the the MC Booker organizer was I I I raced it. I think my nerves kicked in outside my comfort zone. I probably raced it too much. And also because they give you a finite time, it's gotta be 5 minutes. You're really conscious about the clock, and I was trying to squeeze it in, squeeze it, and squeeze it in. I think that was a mistake I made. The next time, what I'll do is I'll I need to pace it and have less content and make more of it. And I think that's the mistake. It's trying to and I think as a speaker, it's the same. You try and put too much in, then you end up overloading people. So sometimes less is obviously more. And I think with comedy, 4 or 5 well honed stories that land are better than 7 or 8 squeezed. I learned that. And I I delivered a couple more times since. Once a networking night, in London and once a at a women's, essential women's day event. I delivered as well. Yeah. As I say, I'm not sure if I wanna do it again, but I've done it I've done it a few times. And, certainly, yeah, learned I learned a lot about myself and and yeah. And I can be funny. This is probably the most important thing. Jo, yeah, I'm a great admirer of anyone who's done to their stand up. Tony Winyard: Using humor is Jo it's the best way to connect with people, isn't it? Jo that's why, yeah. It's I I I have enormous admiration for some of the, you know, comedians on the scene who are constantly every year, they're rewriting their whole set and they'd go into Edinburgh each year. They deliver they they practice it all year in the lead up to Edinburgh. They deliver it there, and then they begin again almost, and they rewrite a whole new set. And then by Edinburgh, the following year, they've got a completely new set. That's just an amazing ability to be able to do that. Yeah. I used to go and see Joanne Lockwood: acts at the, the Guildhall in Portsmouth near where I live. And I've seen John Bishop. I've seen, Mumford. Is it Steve Simon Muff Steven Mumford? Jason Mumford? Jason Tony Winyard: Mumford. Jason Mumford. Jason Mumford. Jason Mumford. Yeah. Is it Jason Mumford? Yeah. John Bishop, Joanne Lockwood: Alan Davis. I saw the would I lie to you crowd? They did like a little little routine. So I yeah. I've seen I've seen quite a few of Jimmy Carr. And it's they they create that show for the year for that tour, don't they? And they all the gags. One thing I loved about John Bishop was the way he set up a whole load of stories all the way through. And at the end, he had a slideshow that actually showed the stories and actually as they happened, he had this big check about I think it was about a llama, and there was him and the llama at the end, and it was kind of the way he Joanne that final close, he signposted all the way through the just slam dunked at the end. I I was a great admiration for the the way he he he created that journey. And, I I think you can learn a lot from comedians about how the storytelling, how they craft their their their speeches and talks and that humor. And, yeah, I'm a I'm a great analyzer of stagecraft and how people speak. Tony Winyard: Yeah. And I agree completely. There's a lot to be learned from professional actually, not even just professional comedians because when I was doing, I did 20 gigs around London and a lot of the people that a lot of places I was working in, we were comedians who were starting from the very beginning. But I got to know a lot of these guys. And as I went to all these different clubs, I got to know some of these comedians on the who would, in the beginning of the the circuit, as far out for them. And I still am in touch with some of these guys, and that was about 10 years ago. And now some of the misadams do really well. And they're not famous by any means, but they're starting to earn some money from it now. But they're they're Joanne Lockwood: a as a white English guy, how did people take you? How did people find you? Have you got a different view of culture, of race, and maybe inclusion or discrimination in somebody who maybe hasn't maybe experienced that part of the world. Tony Winyard: Well, yeah. And it's interesting you say as a as a as a white English guy, because I'm not actually a white English guy. I don't that's how I look. I'm actually mixed race. My my father is black. My mother is blonde Irish and but she must have strong genes because I don't have any. Well, I said I don't have any. Most people who look at me believe that I'm just white English because I'm, I've got a very, I've got a slightly olive olive skin, but my facial features are very kind of European. But as I said, my my father is the same shade as, Usain Bolt. You know, he's he's very dark. And so it's been it's interesting for me as as I've grown up and as I've traveled and I've gone to all these different places. And I know that everyone who looks at me looks at me as a white English person. But I haven't necessarily grown up like that because I've grown up. It's sometimes it's been a bit strange when I was growing up because I was very aware that I am mixed race and and who my father is and so on. But I know it was even times when I'd be in a situation where a crowd of guys, maybe some like a football crowd sort of thing. And and there were some quite racist remarks being made, not to me, just being made because they just presumed that I was the same as the rest of them. I was a white English guy. And so in some ways, it's allowed me to see a different side of racism because I see guys who would never be racist in front of someone who was from another race. But when they were just other white people, they extremely racist and believe in that I was just the same as them. And so it's allowed me sometimes to see people for who they really are rather than who they pretend to be when they're in front of someone who is a different race, which is in some ways is good because it's allowed me to listen. People I know who who don't have no idea that I mix race and who I know are actually very racist, inside, but they never show that face when they're in front of black or Asian or or whatever it might be. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. Interesting. I mean, I I I obviously I read the show notes that you sent through, so I was aware about your father when I asked the question. So I I didn't want to sort of I wanted you to tell your own story, though. But it is interesting that you you make assumptions about people around you. This tip of the iceberg, these these stereotypes we create, we look at someone, we form these judgments very quickly. And how often do we get to know the true person, who their family is, who their friends are, what interest and what their loves and hates are? And I I talk about this when I do my LGBTQ plus training all the time. We we don't we can't assume someone's sexuality. We can't assume who they're someone's married to, but yet we do. We Joanne an assumption that I I know I've got many gay friends or or it's always presumed that they're married to a woman or if if it becomes if if they say they're married to a man and then they talk about their children. So they get puzzled. How can you have children if you're if you're a man married to a man? Again, you have to do all this explaining, and often it's easier just to pass or cover or blend and not have those conversations. Just just be a a passing straight white person if you like without having to explain all these details about your book. Many people don't have that luxury if they're not a passing if they're black, they're openly gay and they're happy to be openly gay, they wear that with pride. And I can't not be trans. It's kind of obvious to most people. I don't I don't make a secret of it, but I can't pack myself away in a box for someone else's convenience. And the amount of times, you know, like yourself, I've been involved with conversations prior maybe to my transition that are sexist, that are racist, that were whatever, all the things you described, transphobic. And it was eating me up inside. It really was a struggle to hold that in. And, of course, if I'd snapped and said something, people look at me like, what's it to you? Why does it matter? And it's and then you have to kind of almost you just say because it does. It's not enough sometimes. You have to almost like it matters because, and then you almost feel obliged to sort of tell your story, which you don't really wanna be put in that position. Tony Winyard: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I I struggled with it as a kid because I didn't, my mother and my father's divorced or they split when I was very young. So I didn't grow up with my father. I grew up with the person who I call my dad is is a white guy. He's, you know, he's really my stepdad. So I grew up in a very white environment, but always aware that I wasn't completely white, even though I looked completely white. And the school I went to was probably about 50% black. It was a it was quite a black area of London. But I always I it was it was difficult because I didn't feel I'm African black, so my father is African. Most of my school was West Indian black. And in the seventies, when I was going to school, it was very cool to be West Indian Black. It was not cool to be African Black. African blacks were really kind of ridicule ridiculed and, you know, a lot of fun made out. And so I would never let anyone know that I was actually born in Africa and that my father was African because I knew that I would be in for a whole load of, you know, people making fun of me and so on. And so I it was always and I couldn't just come out and say, oh, I'm my dad's black because I didn't look black. And so I kind of felt not uncomfortable. It was just it was. Yeah, it was kind of strange for me going up. I wasn't I was never sure. I just most people just assumed I was white, and I never said anything different to most people. Joanne Lockwood: I I was born in Singapore back in the mid sixties. My father was a naval art officer. My mom, I suppose a professional mother at the time as women were in the sixties. So I was born in Singapore in naval hospital in Singapore to 2 white middle class English heritage people. But when I got to a certain age where I was applying for jobs, CVs, resumes, passports, whatever. There's always a there's always a nationality and a place of birth that came up. Now I always put Singapore, and I always put in brackets afterwards British Naval Hospital, close brackets, because I was really, I don't know. I was just keen to say I am English, really. It was almost like I was Yeah. Worried that I would be perceived as someone who wasn't British English by saying I was born in Singapore. And I I look back on that now, and I would never explain that again. I never put that. I never put that footnote anymore. I just say Singapore. But there must have been some bias in my own head, some prejudice in my own head about being perceived as as not completely white. And I still remember that. I I don't I'm not shameful about that feeling, but I'm very conscious that I felt that way. I've challenged myself on it since. Mhmm. Because I was conscious that other people may be biased against me if I put the Singapore down. So it's very interesting that you you say you kinda pass as a as a white person, but you're still proud of your your African heritage where you were born. Tony Winyard: Yeah. And what you just said is so true. I spent Jo the certainly, the first half of my life or certainly until my twenties playing up or really living up to being British and English and told very few people where I was born or they, you know, they didn't know anything about my father. And I probably really exaggerated my cockney accent to to to fit in and and and so on. And I didn't want anyone to feel you want to fit in. You want to be like everyone else. And I it's only in the last, I think, 10, 15 years I've become much more comfortable with who I actually am and where I'm from and my, you know, my family on my father's side as well. Jo you keep in contact with them? Do you Joanne Lockwood: see them? I never actually met my father Tony Winyard: until I was in my mid twenties. And then I met here. And at the time I was, well, I was working in Switzerland and I didn't meet his family because he'd married again to so he's from Sudan. I was born in Sudan, and he married a Sudanese woman and moved to Tottenham in North London. I didn't know that when I was growing up. And it was when I came back to live in England and I met his 4 children, so my half brothers and sisters. And I got quite a close relationship with 2 the your 2 oldest girls, but I didn't have such a close relationship with him. He was very deeply religious, and I'm not religious at all. And I found it quite difficult to he would try 5 times a day, and it just wasn't yeah. And and because we hadn't I hadn't grown up with him. I didn't know anything about him as I was growing up. It was always a difficult relationship, but it was much easier with his with his children. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Especially, if you haven't had contact with Joanne estranged father, it's a really difficult relationship to rebuild, isn't it? Whereas maybe your siblings is is a far easier, maybe relatable peer to peer type type level as now, I think. I've I mean, I haven't had a great relationship with my family for many years. I'm sorry. Carry on. Well, yeah. And so if right. Tony Winyard: Yeah. There was a slight delay, so I didn't hear you carry on. But, yeah, it was funny in some ways because they were, both their mother and father were Sudanese. And so they my my siblings look black, but they were born in London, whereas I look white and I was born in Sudan. So it was it was some strange sort of parallel as well as the opposite, say, in some ways between us. Mhmm. Joanne Lockwood: I've got some friends who fostered to white families, which is quite apparently quite common in the sixties and early part of seventies where black children were taken from their black parents for various reasons, poverty or other reasons, and and they were they were homed or fostered or adopted by white families. And that that led them to a huge identity crisis. Black raised by white people, understanding their culture. And I mean, I think all of the people I know that have told me this have felt very confused about their identity and had a lot of conflict around that racism and find trying to find out who they truly are. It must be really kind of I don't know. I I I can't even think of how that makes you feel. Tony Winyard: Well and there's also and I don't know. I mean, obviously, I can't speak for the situations you're talking about, but I know for myself, growing up in London in in the seventies eighties, it was quite especially from the police, it was quite a racist atmosphere. And a lot of my friends were being picked up regularly by the police on the the SAS laws at the time. And and I was never arrested by the police. And I was wearing the same clothes as these guys, and I was doing the same things and in the same you know, but I was never ever just stopped for for suss, whereas all my friends were always, always being stopped for suss. And so they became I almost, in some ways, kind of felt guilty. I thought, well, I am actually half black. And if the if these police officers had known now, I probably would have been stopped more often, but I was never literally never stopped. And yet they were all my friends were always being stopped. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That must be really, really kind of I don't know. In one way, you feel lucky, but in another way, you feel disappointed for your friends because you could see that overt racism at play. Tony Winyard: Yeah. There was a feeling of guilt in some sometimes because I was I realized I was really, really lucky that I was not being subjected to what my friends were being subjected to. And that was just purely by the luck of not having a darker complexion. I mean, my my best friend was also mixed race, and he was a his father was black and his mum was white, but he looked very black. You know, his his hair was more sort of Afro and so on, whereas, you know, my hair is not. And and we were subjected to such different experiences. And yet we were basically the same in some ways. You know, Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm kinda lost for words because that situation for me, I've got no reference point of that that conflict of identity or that conflict of of history in my life. So it's hear your story and hear your story of other people I've I've spoken to. It yeah. It's it really takes me into a different position of thinking, you know, about how that can happen and how it does uncover racism, uncovers the social constructs and the the systemic problems we have in society in some cases with the with the police, with the stop and search, with discrimination employment, in in benefits, aggravated by things like Grenfell, Windrush, and now, what appears to be a racial bias to death, to dying as a result of COVID often due to how people live, the societies, the communities they grow up with, multiple generations and families living in the same property. There's a whole lot of sort of structural reasons why black, brown, or non white people are disproportionately affected by COVID, and it's not about vitamin d and it's not about the color of skin. It's about the societal constructs that we've created around those communities. And it's, as a white person, I'm really shielded from that. And I'm spending a lot of time educating myself on on making sure I understand what's going on in society. And yeah, it it it is. And, for you to be in that kind of halfway house where you you pass as white, but have that black heritage, it's yeah. It must be quite a a conflict. But I'm not saying a bad conflict, but a something that you have to work with in your life. Tony Winyard: Yeah. And I. Yeah, it was. I guess it was more I just felt because my friends were. Suffering quite badly and, you know, being beaten up and stuff and sometimes. And so I just I was very aware of how how lucky I was. But but but there was an element of guilt about that. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, one of the when I when I do my training, I do my talking. I talk about how a lot of biases come from media. And I noticed in part of your bio, you say you don't own a television and you haven't read a newspaper in decades. So a lot of the biases that are prevalent in today's society are really fed by the media. Do you feel shielded from them or do you feel cut off or how how do you keep in touch with society? Tony Winyard: I don't feel the need to. I feel and I I I have very little stress in my life, and I believe that's one of the reasons is because I don't feel that I have to keep in touch with everything that's going on and be have to know what's happened yesterday in Westminster or what the Daily Mail have made up or or whatever the case may be. I I mean, I I'm I'm very aware of what's going on if well, just from being on social media, from using things like Facebook and and whatever platforms. If there I see a lot of people talking about a particular story, depending on the context and the sort of things they're saying, then I'm it may lead me to go and discover more about what that story is. So I may look at certain websites to find out more about that story. But half the time, I can see from the different, comments that are being made by lots of different people that I know who are white, black, Asian and whatever. Sometimes I feel, well, actually, I don't want to know anything about that story because it's clearly I can see it's not actually helping people by the views that they're expressing. So I'm quite content not knowing anything about that story. Joanne Lockwood: Do self select and research as as you feel you want to and is necessary at the time? Oh, good. Yeah. I think we are sucked into this. I need to be fed with information on our phones, on the news, on our media. We kinda get addicted to it. It must be, I'd say, quite cathartic. And did you say very relaxing not to have this this pressure of of media intrusion into your life at the time? Tony Winyard: And and the reason it came about was because when I was living abroad for a long time and I came back to England for a friend's wedding in 96. So I'd been away about 10 years at that point. And I had been reading, I've been getting a weekly paper called the International Express, which was like a the last 7 days main stories from the Daily Express. And I'd been receiving this for a few years, and that was the only touch point I had with Ringling because this was, you know, pre Internet and so on. And I didn't realize, but I was believing all these sensational stories in you know, that they have in The Daily Express on a regular basis. And when I came back to England, I was there's a couple of times about I was with different groups of friends, and we will be we will be going to a different places. And I was saying, oh, we we surely we don't want to go there. It's really dangerous there. And my friends were sort of looking at me and what are you talking about? And this happened on a few different occasions. And I realized as I was on a plane going back to Indonesia, it occurred to me that my whole, thoughts about England had been completely shaped about how England was by by the Daily Express over the previous few years because I hadn't actually seen England. I'd only been all I knew about England now was what I was reading in the Daily Express. And that was why I was being so fearful about going to places like Ealing and and Islington and other places, which I would never have had second thought about going to when I was growing up. But now I was suddenly fearful about going to these places because I'd been kind of conditioned in that way by reading the express every day. And on the on the plane going back, I thought, well, I'm not buying that paper anymore. And that slowly turned into I just have never bought a newspaper since. Joanne Lockwood: I'm honest. I don't think the only time I've bought a newspaper in the last 10 years is when I was in it. I wanted to check the article I wrote or the story about me. But no. I I don't I don't buy newspapers, but I I do click on links on social media, and I probably consume a bit online, BBC news, that kind of stuff. But, yeah, no, I don't think I bought a newspaper or read a newspaper for many, many years either. So but you're so right about how we form these biases and prejudices and based on somebody else's commentary. And I've never been to China myself, but I'm hearing all this about the Uighur population and the way that the Chinese culture. I've never been to some most of Africa and my whole life is view of Africa is clouded by what I see on the television. I've never been to any parts of the Middle East. So how I perceive the Middle East, the people from that territory and region, again, all clouded by the media. And I'm always very conscious about my biases about because we often see lots of stories where there's a war or conflict or poverty or or something we disagree with going on in that region. That's all we ever hear, and we don't really get to to experience the people. And I was watching the other day, I can't remember which country it was, they just had a major earthquake or it's had a major disaster. And they were interviewing these people, but the people they were interviewing were covered in mud and rubble because they just had their they'd had their lives blown away by what disaster had happened. I thought it's already made them seem more primitive, less capable, less intelligent. My biases were building up big time. I thought, oh, these people have jobs, they have families, they have a bank account, they have money, they drive a car, They they have a position in society that is that delivers a service to other people. But all we're being shown is this poor, broken family, not who they I wanna know who they were all about Jo I could film a true impression of of of the context. And that's all all we see. We we only see the disaster view of these people, which dehumanizes in a way and just reduces them to a a hard luck story. Whereas yeah. And there's Tony Winyard: also the agenda that the the channels have. Jo, I mean, I can there's one particular story I have where, again, while I was in Indonesia, in Jakarta, and there was a riot happening in North Jakarta, in in Kota, a place in Chinatown. And I was at the time living in South Jakarta. And Jakarta is a huge place. It's not as big as London. It's not far off. And so if you can imagine, if you're in, say, somewhere like Wandsworth and there's a riot happening in Sauternum, well, you're not affected at all because it's so far away. Well, so we I was share I was at a friend's house at the time, another English guy. And we happened to have just walked down the road to the local pizza place, and we bought a pizza. And we're back in his house, and we're eating the pizza. And we're watching CNN, who were reporting on this riot in Jakarta. And the reporter said all the expats are barricaded in their houses because the thing things are so bad. And we've looked at each other and, well, we've just walked down the road to get a pizza. What are you talking about? The expats are barricaded. But everyone who was outside of Indonesia and couldn't see what the situation was would obviously believe what this reporter was selling them. And that again, that and that wasn't long after that story with the whole newspaper thing as well. And I I just started realizing these newspapers and media have they've got this agenda which they want to make people believe. And if you're not a there to see that actually that's not the situation, then you're going to believe that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think if you like, from a DNI of this podcast, you know, into business, and that's a real perspective. So we wanna maybe leave people with a question what you're being fed by the media, question their motives, and seek out your own truth. A bit like you're saying, you do you do the selective research, targeted research to get uncover the real story. I think that's really, really important. And as a as a takeaway, that could be that's the nugget I'd like to leave people with here is about understanding your biases, understanding what you've been fed, understanding the perspectives you have, and how to challenge those and be really active about learning about some of about people, about new situations, cultural, emotional intelligence. That's why I always encourage people to do it. Well, Tony, we've been speaking for just over an hour. I'm sure we could both carry on for another couple of hours, Esther, and I look forward to meeting out with you in the real world one day. So thanks, Tony. How do our listeners get in touch with you to to speak about your website, what you're doing? Tony Winyard: So I I touched upon it. Yeah. I dive with the whole habit thing. And and as I said, the way that the habits came about is because I've been immersing myself in health for quite a few years now. And I help people to improve their sleep, their nutrition, their breathing, their movement, and their mindset. And I I call my business habits and health. And so there's the ways people can get more information about me. My website is tonywinyard.com. Winyard is W-I-N-Y-A-R-D. I've got a quiz. You can find out whether you're in control of your habits or your habits are in control of you. Just switch is tony bueno.com/ habits. I've got a free 5 day program, which I kinda coach people through improving their habits and how to create a habit from whatever behavior it is you want. Maybe it's to to do press ups on a regular basis or to floss your teeth or whatever it might be. I've got this free 5 day program, is just tonywinyard.com/ habits. I saw the quiz. I I think I get no. The the quiz is habits hyphen health dot com. I think I gave the wrong URL before. I forget what it was I said. But yeah. And I I've got I do I coach people in this, and I also have some group online programs in this where it's usually 8 to 10 people. And there's a there's that kind of hive mind where by people telling their stories about how they're having problems maybe with their sleep or or respiratory issues or whatever the case may be. And when I'm able to help that one person, I'm also helping other people in the room or or the story that one other person is telling is talking about is helpful to the other people in the room as well. And I know I have a podcast which we touched upon. Yeah. I've got podcast called Habits and Health. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I'm gonna go check my habits and see see what I've got. And I'm I'm definitely gonna build up my my cycling habit. That's that's one thing I've taken away from talking to that. I need to break into that habit, make a positive habit out of cycling, not, ignoring the bike. Although I can see the bike every time I look out the kitchen window, it's staring at me saying, ride me. Ride me. So I I haven't hidden it. So it's in my thoughts. So amazing. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your contribution. Been really good to chat to you. And a huge thanks, to you, my listener. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Thank you for getting to the end. If you want to hear more, please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast at B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. I'm sure you have a few. Tell your colleagues. Probably got some of those as well. I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up that I was sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks months. So please, please, please, if you'd like to also, if you'd like to be a guest, get in contact with me. I'd love to have you on the show. And as always, I'd like feedback, suggestions for future shows on how I can improve to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been a pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.