--- title: "Standing in the middle and feeling excluded" episode: 32 date: 2021-03-18 guest: "Tom Morley" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/32-standing-in-the-middle-and-feeling-excluded audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-032/audio.mp3 --- # Standing in the middle and feeling excluded Tom Morley joins Joanne Lockwood to unpack what it means to be “standing in the middle and feeling excluded” — a pattern that began in childhood as the youngest of four brothers, and followed him into adult life. Tom shares how he tried to engineer inclusion by becoming a vocal harmony facilitator, imagining that being the person in the centre would automatically guarantee belonging, only to discover that attention and leadership don’t necessarily translate into real connection. They explore how authenticity changes the equation: instead of performing for approval or trying to control how others see you, genuine inclusion can come from turning up as yourself, naming what’s true, and allowing relationships to form naturally. Alongside this, Tom and Joanne talk candidly about resilience and mental wellbeing, including experiences of depression, nervous breakdowns, and the practical value of techniques like CBT. The conversation also turns to pandemic life and work: how lockdown reshaped connection, changed what team-building looks like online, and created new anxieties about returning to workplaces. Tom shares practical ideas for reintegration and trust-building — including check-ins and creating space for people to speak honestly — and reflects on why we shouldn’t rush back to old norms without acknowledging what people have been through. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Authenticity connects; no need to impress others. - 05:33 — Fond memories of vocal harmony facilitator role. - 16:13 — Western culture fosters exclusion through consumerism tactics. - 22:01 — Background noise fades; groove and harmony remain. - 26:00 — Resilient mindset helps navigate emotional cycles. - 33:57 — Year since UK's COVID-19 restrictions announcement. - 39:13 — Universally successful events create anxiety post-lockdown. - 41:48 — Cautious transition to post-pandemic workplace environment. - 46:02 — Build trust and support through shared vulnerability. - 53:14 — Value diverse personality traits in leadership roles. - 59:00 — Find rhythm in everyday objects and sounds. - 01:03:36 — Home interactions better than office routines now. - 01:10:47 — Thank you, listener. Subscribe to Inclusion Bites! ## Key takeaways - The importance of meaningful connections over broad, shallow approval, emphasising true engagement with smaller, like-minded groups. - How artistic environments devoid of future job prospects can encourage creativity and freedom. - The challenge of inclusion, and the argument that not everyone can or should be included, maintaining fairness and respect. - Techniques for creating supportive communities where people can share vulnerabilities and build trust. - The impact of COVID-19 on traditional work models and how virtual platforms have flattened organisational hierarchies. - The need to value diverse attributes in leadership and re-assess what makes effective leadership beyond traditional traits. - Practical ways to embrace and adapt to the changes brought by the pandemic, using creativity to foster new models of engagement and community. ## FAQs ### Who is the guest on this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast and what is his background? The guest is Tom Morley, a vocal harmony facilitator and creative leader known for his work with group drumming and harmonising. He is also a visual and vocal rebel who has shared experiences from art school and his journey through creative and financial challenges. ### What significant personal experiences did Tom Morley share during the podcast? Tom Morley shared several personal experiences, including the loss of his mother at age 13, undergoing financial difficulties during the UK lockdown, and the incident where his van was set on fire by vandals. He also discussed the impact of accrued loan interest and maintaining his work through the pandemic. ### How does Tom Morley’s social media strategy align with his approach to inclusion and engagement? Morley focuses on targeting a niche audience instead of trying to please everyone. He believes that meaningful connections with a smaller but engaged group are more valuable than broad, superficial approval. ### What are Joanne Lockwood’s and Tom Morley’s views on the limitations of inclusion and targeting specific demographics? Both Lockwood and Morley acknowledge that not everyone can or should be included in every endeavour. They argue that it’s acceptable for brands to cater to specific demographics as long as it’s done with fairness and respect. ### How has COVID-19 impacted Tom Morley’s professional activities? The pandemic greatly affected Morley’s work, particularly the in-person group drumming sessions which were disrupted by latency issues during online activities. He adapted by organising online music and movement sessions using household items for percussion, allowing for global participation. ### Why do Joanne Lockwood and Tom Morley believe in focusing on authentic expression? They emphasise that being genuine in art and branding is crucial because it resonates more deeply with a niche audience. Even if not everyone appreciates it, authenticity fosters true appreciation and meaningful engagement. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have been interviewing a number of amazing people as simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd love to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 32 with the title standing in the middle and feeling excluded. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by my great friend, Tom Morley. Tom describes himself as someone who is compelling, cheeky, unbelievably expensive, irreverent, but at the end of the day, value for money. And when I asked Tom to describe his super bear, he said it is authenticity and turning up. Hello, Tom. Welcome to the show. It's good to be here. And that Tom Morley: whole authenticity thing, you probably know this phrase, once you fake that, you got it made. But thank Joanne Lockwood: you for joining me. I know we've spoken many, many hundreds of hours over the last lockdown months, but Jo it's been great. We've finally got to catch up and schedule this in. So Tom, tell me about standing in the middle of feeling excluded. Tom Morley: Well, first of all, I have to I have to fess up about the decaf because you and I have worked together. I know you wouldn't go near decaf. So, I prepared for this by making myself a real full cafe. So, if I, yeah, rein me in if I go a bit too far at any point. So Bounce off the walls. Yes. Yeah. Standing in the middle. I'm still feeling excused excluded, refers to, being the youngest child in a family, youngest of 4 boys. And the other 3 always Lockwood like a gang to me, you know, fully formed gang. And because, I mean, this happens to the 4th child. You have to look for a role. And I was naturally sort of quite anyway. So and encouraged by my mom, I'd say, you thought she could, move me into the area of graphic design, I could make some money. We were a poor family. So she thought, last, I've had a child who could make us some money. So that kind of excluded me even more from the gangs. They thought I was kinda namby pamby while they were, you know, building camps and falling out of trees and stuff. So when I when I grew up, I thought, right. I looked around and I thought, right. If I become a vocal harmony facilitator that I look I could see you stand in the middle of the circle and you divide the the group into 3 and you teach this group and then teach that group and you teach all different parts. Now we're looking at you all the time. So I thought that I'm bound to be included then. I'll not only be included, I'll be the leader. But the the there was a a quirk. I took a drum with me and I used to lead with the drum. And then everybody said, oh, great. That drumming thing was great. When you come back, can you bring the drums? And I said, this is vocal harmony. It's it's it's not about drums. Just 200 people, one drum. Right? And me, the leader in the middle. They said, yeah, we love the drumming. Bring the drums. So eventually, it was like, Polanski is the tenant, you know, when you you kinda get moved to be this person that everyone wants you to be. So I bought 200 drums and, gave me out. They all loved it. And but the trouble was with that, at the end of the session, they all kind of loved me and everything, but they went to the bar and I ended up loading the van and missing all the jokes and all the humor. And, and then by the time I got to the bar, they're all leaving. Bye, Tom. Great session. So I kinda discovered that I couldn't engineer physically a way of being in the gang. I had to kind of join the gang, by being I mean, that's why authenticity comes into it in the intro. I found that, if I was authentic, I didn't have to trick it 200 people into looking at me. I just hang out, you know, and say, I'm a bit fed up about this or this went wrong or that went right or and, and, actually, man, I could save myself so many years of training, to impress people because, nobody really needs to do that. You just need to say, oh, you know, I'm feeling a bit down today. Oh, come over here, mate. Tell me about it. It's all you need to do. Joanne Lockwood: I love the way you said, that you you were kind of you had this vision about this, yeah, as you said, vocal harmony facilitator. Now that sounds such a great role, vocal harmony facilitator and I've never come across that. But it cast me back to the days as a young person, you know, sitting around the campfire and you do those rounds, you know, London's burning, London's burning and it all starts at different times and you try and get it that harmony going. So I really I really took took me right to that point in my life and with with some fond memories. But isn't it incredible sometimes that despite our best efforts, the thing we want to be proud of relate to, they relate to something you just it's incidental like your drum, you know, this is who you were this vocal harmony facilitator and suddenly you become the drummer that it's like almost like forcing you to be someone you weren't trying to be. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the I mean, Tom Morley: my brothers all, moved into the furniture business. They made a lot of money in antiques. They were moving furniture all around the world, you know? And, and that my joke was, well, you people, you get everybody and sit, everybody's sitting down. I'm gonna get everybody standing up. So all my groups always get them standing up. And then when I bought the drums, that kinda African wooden, drums with these beautiful hats on, you know, covers in this beautiful African material and string, and they're really lovely things. And I turn up at these posh venues as the facilitator, and the door peep would say, oh, are they the new bar stools? You should go around the back, mate, and bring them in the, good tensions. Jo, again, I was, you know, and, you know, they used to drive or they still do, you know, drive furniture around the country. I'm not doing that. I end up driving these drums up and down motorways, you know, nearly going out. I I mean, I could swap stories with them about how I was falling asleep at the wheel. I was meant to be jetting around the world, you know, with, nothing but some songs in my head teaching people vocal harmony. So, yeah, it's it's been a disaster. Joanne Lockwood: So do you think that people kind of labelling you as the trades person because you were the lugger? Because that's one of the inevitable things when you're the one that's setting up the kit, doing all this. You you it's almost like this seeing you as the as the hired help rather than the the main cause, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, there there is, Tom Morley: there's an element of, you know, kind of prophecy in it, that what you're trying to run away from just follows you around. And like I say, when I don't try, then, I just connect with people anyway, but I've kinda burden myself with 300 drums. I mean, luckily, just before just before lockdown proper, I knew I was gonna be working online because I could see it coming. So I I unloaded the van and I've got it as a backdrop in my studio here, all the drums piled up. And everyone said, why don't you use green screen? But 3 days later, some vandals, who normally just knit mopeds and set them alight in the, local churchyard decided to nick 1 and set the light against our van. So it blew up in the middle of the night and we got these messages from the neighbors saying, there appears to be a van on fire. It looks a bit like yours. I hope you hope it's alright, but I'd taken all the drums out. So, maybe maybe I shouldn't have taken them out, come to think of it. I should have just left them in there, got an insurance money, and then said to people, it's vocal harmony from now on. Sorry. Damn. I thwarted my fate. Joanne Lockwood: Alright. Just talk about, you know, some of your life in general. You you've got a quite striking appearance and your look is very you. Do you find that that's ever led you to be judged or excluded or do you find the opposite? Tom Morley: Well, yeah, both judged and excluded and included. I mean, the whole thing about anybody who's a rebel, or, you know, visually a rebel or they speak like a rebel, What they're really doing, is they are trying to move away from the mediocrity of normal life, which they would, you know, obviously not like. And there there's a small tribe of people you can join. It's why a lot of bands meet at art school. It's, you know, when I first went to art school in the foundation year, I was dismally, kinda disappointed because it was just like an extended 6th form. Now, I thought I was gonna be with Salvador Dali and people, you know, kind of budding surrealists or dada people, but they're all people going, yeah. I quite like, Magritte. I'm gonna do my version. So but then when I got to Leeds, Leeds Polytechnic is where I met Green and we formed Script League. That that now they they really were proper artists. You know, a lot of us, we are a whole kind of cohort of rebels. Part partly because it was the freest course in the country. It was just like big warehouse and you had to fight for space, with the 2nd 3rd years. And so it was, it was a real kind of growing up. All the tutors weren't interested enough. They just wanted to do their own work, except maybe someone like Jeff Nuttall who's a situationist. He's dead now, but a lovely guy. And he would just come around and challenge us sometimes. Jo that's rubbish. That's brilliant. Publish it. Why are you doing that? So, yeah, we grew up fast there. And also nobody, nobody encouraged us to say, well, it's Monday. What are you gonna do this week? I mean, that wouldn't occur to them. So we had we had to say, it's Monday. What am I gonna do this week? I've got all these resources. Because in those days, you could you could get, money to do crazy things from the college itself. We we got grants from the government. We got our rent paid. We got, you know, so we were really free. I mean, we didn't know how lucky we were. There was just a point in history when that was encouraged, you know, kind of creativity was really encouraged. And nobody said, What are you gonna do with this when you leave? They just said, go and influence, you know, be an influence in the world. Be a good influence whether you're a sculptor, painter, performer. You know, it was a it was a different time. We can believe it. It's probably only 10 years after we left art school. The, the Royal College was saying, we're gearing ourselves to what industry needs. And we're looking, what? How can you call yourself an art school? Joanne Lockwood: I mean, picking up on something you just said there, which I find really, really resonates is this, you know, you basically said you can't keep everybody happy, you can't please everybody. And it always resonates for me where it's better to engage 1 person than to have a 100 followers who aren't engaged. It's that meaningful connection that you want. So motivating and engaging your tribe, your cohort, whatever resonates with you is actually far better than trying to keep everybody happy because if you keep everybody happy, nobody's happy in my experience. At least you're better off with half the world loving you. Yeah. Well, half. I Tom Morley: mean, I've, I said to my wife who who thinks sometimes I'm on social media too much. I said, well, look, I, I am ridiculously expensive. I I need to engage those people who are gonna pay, and they don't all know about me, so I will just tell the whole world what I'm doing all the time. 99% of people will hate me. 1% will love me. Nought point nought point naught point 1 percent will employ me, but they'll pay me so much, that, it'll get us through the year just fine. And Jo, yeah, and and at first, I wanted everybody to love me when I was a kid, but, man, is that, you know, that that that's a fool's, what is it? Fools' fools game. Aaron, yeah. People do it. Fool's game. Yeah. It's not winnable game, isn't it? You It's not winnable game. Yeah. It and, advertising will suggest you can do it if you buy this product or, or buy into this brand or you get this and you get that and you get that. And then everyone gets to 35, 40. They're absolutely exhausted, and nobody cared anyway. You know? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think one of the things I hear a lot of people talk about in the inclusion world is that this this deadlock of feeling like you have to include everybody, how to include everybody in this. And I think in order to break that down, you have to recognize that not everybody it can be included. And as long as you're fair, you're respectful, you're giving people equality of opportunity and you're giving people dignity then there isn't really a lot you can you can do fair than that. And some people may not be suitable. They may not have the capability, may not have the interest. And I I I say it's perfectly valid for a brand to say, I cater for very thin affluent women in our sportswear line, and this product isn't for you. In the same way that when you're an artist, you you produce music or entertain, you know full well that not everybody is gonna be happy with that. And you go, well, fine. That doesn't matter. I've got I've got people who love me for what I am, and that's that's the authenticity side, isn't it? Yeah. And I think that, Tom Morley: what you're describing is is a kind of utopia where, the brand that caters for the thin, affluent white people, is kind of seen as such as that is a very small minority. And the rest of you were doing your clothes over here, your style over there, and there's no judgment between them. However, it's set up differently and advertising probably understands psychology more than most. So it's the whole thing about FOMO is, has just got crazy now. So I mean, the it when when they started airbrushing photographs long before Photoshop, when they used to airbrush photographs with a real airbrush, you know, in a proper lap and it would take hours, hours and hours to extend the model's legs or bring their, hips in or something. Now, of course, everyone can do it on their phones, but they spend a lot of money doing that. And in a deliberate way to exclude people, but say, however, you won't feel excluded if you buy this product or you get on this diet or you follow this plan or you so so it's all, I mean, the the whole of western culture is based on exclusion, deliberately, say, can sellers, products and division, divide and rule. So it to be a rebel and why people end up in art schools or communes or bands or gangs even. You know? It's so it's to try and get away from that, manipulation. Say, no. We're setting up a alternative camp over here. But the trust trouble is, as Jamie Will talks about this, in a much more eloquent way than I do, he says there's 4 stages. There'll be Andy Warhol's factory proper, you know, or studio 54 proper. And then, and then it gets kinda watered down, and a few more people are allowed to get in. And then it becomes something where you can go, oh, I'm drinking out of a glass that Whitney Houston might have drunk out of on my stag night or my Hindu. And, and then it just becomes commercialized. So every rebel outpost becomes commercialized eventually, but you just then have to move on. The the the concern I have for this country, the UK, with, Brexit and the kind of shutting down of funding for a lot of projects, both science and art projects because we can't get, European funding anymore, is that the more sensitive rebels who would need or the more sensitive artists, I'll stop calling them rebels, creatives, who would need, the support of a group and the support of a group that had maybe premises kind of some kind of infrastructure that you could join with all those being destroyed. So, you know, like, kind of local theaters can be sold off to become luxury flats. I I I'm completely neutral here, politically. But, so that's gonna happen. It's gonna happen because of Brexit. It's be it's gonna happen because of COVID. Jo, consequently, people who would have benefited from those local resources, arts resources, are gonna have a harder time now. I'm kinda lucky. I'd I've built some resilience. I've learned some CBT techniques. I I have my kinda gang, and, I'm recognized as such, but it's taken decades for me to get to that position. I feel really sorry for for young people who are coming through, and, there isn't really a lot to support them. As I said, you know, we we got grants that we never had to pay back, and that and that was hard enough. But to, I don't know how the, the arts in this country are gonna survive. I I think the spirit will survive, but Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean, you're saying that that you've you've got an inner resilience. How did you find that? Was it something that was always there or you really had to sort of use these CBD techniques or use other techniques to develop it or were you always able to rest back on it because you knew it was there under the covers? Tom Morley: I think I had to have 3 nervous breakdowns, which kind of relied on being depressed for a year each time. These were about 10 years apart. And, at the bottom of each, I mean, you do hit the bottom there. Anybody's been that low knows you do hit the bottom because if you don't, you never come back. So and at, hitting the bottom of this kind of, there's a kind of you sense something. It's terrible. It's dark. You never think you're coming back. But I always had this thing and it was about harmony and it was about the groove. It was about rhythm. There was nothing else there. And as I came back, because that had been the thing that was there, it kind of expanded a bit more each time I came back. Jo, so any other lies, nonsense, political shenanigans, da da da, it all just sort became background noise to the groove and harmony. So so now I know I mean, who knows? I'd I've learned a lot of techniques, so I'll never get depressed again. But who knows? If if I do, it it's still gonna be there, you know, and, and I'll come back and I'll be older and I'll be wiser. And there'll be even less kind of detritus of what I should be doing or what I should be saying or who I should be talking to. And it will be me in the groove. And there's enough people who wanna play and dance and sing in harmony in the world. And there I'll be in the middle. Joanne Lockwood: Creating the groove and the harmony. Yeah. And, really? Yeah. Leading leading the leading the yeah. Absolutely. And I'll do it Tom Morley: authentically, because it's now, you know, if it's it's almost like I'm a hologram of myself, bought of groove and harmony and there's lots of space and it flickers a bit sometimes, but that's all that's there. You know, when I first did it, there was a per there was a kind of scared person in the middle of going, oh, I hope everybody loves me because, I make them feel so good and their bodies are getting flooded with chemicals and they're all feel good chemicals. And, you know, so I so I knew the I knew the formula to look like the magician, but I really I I was the wizard that was, you know, now I'm just a wizard. You know, my own wizard. Don't Joanne Lockwood: don't look behind the curtain. Yeah. Well, well, there there is no curtain. You Tom Morley: You know, that that's the thing. They they burn. Joanne Lockwood: When you're talking there about, yeah, hitting the right bottom, I Jo way you believe that I have been clinically depressed or to a point where that would be a diagnosis. But I've I've certainly bounced off the bottom of well I've as deep as I can get and several times in my life things have felt like the end of the world. 4 or 5 years ago I was going through a phase of my life where I couldn't get out of bed, I was breaking into tears all the time, I hadn't I couldn't plan more than 5 minutes ahead sort of thing. What do I wanna do later? Well, I don't know. I'm not sure what I wanna do now kind of thing. And it was Yeah. I remember lying in bed with the world just going Joanne and round in circles, there's no answers, no get off, there's no way of solving any problem. And I remember waking up one morning and just saying I am. I'm good enough. I'm valid. Who I am is okay. And I didn't need to answer all the questions that were going around in my head. I almost like said well, I'm not brushing them under the carpet, I'm just saying I don't need to answer that because I am. I don't justify that and that that got me out of bed. And I think that that experience 4 or 5 years ago, unlocked some of resilience, which I probably had all my life, but now I can fall back on it consciously knowing that it's there and it's there to save me if you like. And I I think when COVID hit last year, for me, it was just a case of, okay, have my cry, have my readjustment, have my pity party for a few days. And right, okay, what's my technique? My technique is going, well, I've done this before. I can do it again. And okay, I appreciate it's a privilege that I have that many people don't but I was able to bounce back knowing that I was I could do it because I believed in myself. I magic stuff out of nowhere. I can do it again, I think. So that's that's kind of the resilient techniques I use and it's amazing how you can almost do that on a day by day basis because we all go through these little micro highs, micro lows we don't really appreciate. And I think I mentioned to you earlier that this week I haven't had as many sales calls or raised as many invoices I had the previous week. So, therefore, my brain is telling me that I'm I'm less happy because all those chemicals that were making me feel euphoric last week have disappeared this week, so I'm crashing and burning. So I've just got to look myself in the mirror and Jo, nothing's Joanne. Nothing has changed in the world. You're just going through this down cycle and you just got to ignore it and bounce off and go, well, next week, I'm gonna feel great again. And it's learning that, isn't it? And knowing that that bounce back ability will happen if you keep on. Yeah. Tom Morley: And I think we are speaking. I just wanna be clear here that both you and I are speaking, you know, living in one of the still one of the richest countries in the world and we're professionals and, you know, our houses are not gonna disappear. There's there's gonna be water in the tap and the kettle's probably gonna work. So, so we have the luxury of saying, well, if I get depressed, I will still have a roof over my head. A lot a lot of people don't in the world. So so I wouldn't say, my formula of having a breakdown is gonna work for everybody nor would I recommend it. But, it does, as you say, it does and we we have the luxury of reading books about saying, just be in the present. And, actually, it sounds like what you're talking about. And I've talked to my wife about this recently because sometimes I get, visited by an avalanche of regret. And then I just I don't process it anymore in the kind of CBT way, which I'd I'd have to sit down for 3 hours and do all these exercises. I'd just go, yeah. Well, that's, you know, who's that for? Who's that avalanche for? It's not affecting anybody else. It's it's in the past. You know, who's who's who's kind of in charge of this? And I'm gonna just go, well, thank you, Avalanche. I'm just gonna listen to the birds singing. And really, it's not avoidance. It's not spiritual bypass. It's just a choice to Jo, well, yeah, all that's going on is going on for a lot of people all the time. But that is what, what those guys I I think, or they talk about enlightenment is it is, you know, the you t you you study, you study, you study with the master and eventually the master just thwacks you around ahead and goes, those studies were for nothing except for this thwack. Now be in the present. And you go, oh, I said what it was all for. Yeah. That's what it was all for. I remember doing a workshop with a guy called Chuck Spazano once when I was quite down, and a friend of mine took me there. And he, Chuck Spazana is kind of spiritual leader in a way, but he was also bit like a used car salesman. Lovely guy, American guy. He was about 60 of us there for for a weekend in London. And it's Friday night, and he said, so you've come on the happiness course. Let me tell you the short way to do this course. And he just stood there and he said, are you happy? And we all sat there and he said, that's it. We said, what? And he said, oh, you want the complicated version. Alright, everybody. Who had trouble with their parents growing up? And then we spent that two and a half days processing everybody, going through this. And then at the end, he said, okay, buddy, be happy. And then having processed it all, we we knew what he was talking about. But, that option is always available to us, but we've been so conditioned that that isn't available to us. We have to do all this complicated stuff. We have to you know, I know I keep coming back to Deal with it. We have to deal with it. Deal with it. Deal with it. Deal with it. Yeah. Process it. Go through this therapy. Go through that therapy. Stop eating this. Stop eating that. Start eating this. Take more vitamins. You'll never get there unless you do this. You know? It's a, there there's there's a guy. I was gonna say if you listen to this podcast and you're a CBT practitioner Joanne Lockwood: or you're you've got qualifications of this and you wanna you're shouting at the at the PC right now, Gaye, you don't know nothing. Well Tom Morley: Well, let me We're not we're not practitioners in any way. We're just Joanne Lockwood: experience stuff, isn't it? CBT has saved my life. Tom Morley: I I I really if you look on my, on my website, and, really, I did process everything for 6 months every day, every day, every day until I processed a lot of what we we then called, mind talk. You know? They call it self talk, monkey mind chatter. You do have to do it, but the but the annoying thing is you do have to do it, but then, you get to a point where you go, oh, I didn't have to do all that. But you have to do it in order to get to the point where you think I didn't have to do it. It's it's, it's like the, as I say, you know So you achieve mastery. You get to the practitioner phase, Joanne Lockwood: don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You have You become the master of of that technique. And therefore, you, yeah, go direct to the end. You you you've done the graft. You've you've done the wax on, wax off and the, all this sort of thing so you've become the sort of like the, yeah, the the Jedi or or the, the Dojo master or something, wherever you are. Yeah. So you've done the time. I get that. Yeah. And then when you get there, you, Tom Morley: you think, oh, but everyone said enlightenment was, when everything would be fantastic all the time, you know, and you wouldn't have to worry. You wouldn't get any bills. You wouldn't. It's not. It's it's, you know, yeah. You feel you're there, but, you're living in the real world and that's other, I often say the people, you know, run the business and Joanne in your own business. It's, it is, far tougher road to enlightenment than sitting in the Himalayas for 20 years. You know, letting your beard grow or I don't know what the equivalent would be for a woman, But, you know, just kinda not looking after yourself. Joanne Lockwood: Shaving your legs for a couple of years probably. Yeah. Tom Morley: We're gonna get into trouble here. So yeah. But, I mean but, basically, not kinda tending, your body in any way, but just kinda concentrating on the inside, the inside, the inside. Yeah. That's not what we're here for. What's what's the point of living in a world if you're not gonna live in a world? You know, you can you can get all that when you're dead, all that thing thereafter, you know, and and we're here to influence each other. I mean, crikey, the the world will fall down if we all, just went meditating. Well, actually Lockwood wouldn't. Let's all go and meditate in the Himalayas and let the animals get on with it. I think that's probably the answer. Joanne Lockwood: It might have a an impact on Gillette's, stock price if we don't. Tom Morley: Love you. They're gonna be shaving their beard off for a while. Yeah. So we're Joanne Lockwood: a year into Lockwood. You know, we've 23rd March is is kind of in the UK when, we we got the the broadcast from Boris telling us that to stay at home protect the NHS to save lives where that all started almost only a few weeks away from that anniversary. So you were your business, your life was kind of based around being present in rooms full of people, facilitating, enlightening, empowering, activating people. And that must have been a real kind of nudge or knock that you've you've you've found a year it's a year ago. So what what was going through your mind at the time? You know, what was going through the mind of a of someone who was in that environment and what did you how did you find yourself, I don't know, moving forward from that? I was a bit concerned Tom Morley: because, I'm, unfortunately, I followed in the footsteps of my father who was really lousy at opening the mail. And in those days, my mom would open it if it was red. If a bill was red, she'd open it. And somehow, we were poor, but she'd have squirreled away some money, to pay the red bills. When COVID hit, I I hadn't opened it. They don't they don't send red red bills anymore. They send black and white ones. Jo I had opened the mail and I opened a a letter. I own a little well, I used to own a little, pad, kind of rock star pad in Central London, which was part of my income, renting it out. And they said, we're repossessing your flat. Basically, I hadn't you you know, I could have paid, but I just missed some payments. So they repossessed it. And I said, well, that'd be good. There'll be about a 100 grand equity, you know, that swings and roundabouts. But the lawyers somehow carved up all the equity amongst themselves. I mean, the one point they were charging me through a mistake of theirs. They charged me some of the £2,000 a day interest on the loan. So I lost all that money. As I say, the the the van got burned. My income was based on or my work was based on getting people to drum in harmonies, in rhythm, singing harmony, drum in rhythm. And, I needed a place far away from the workplace in order that people would feel safe to do that. Now, yeah, online, because of the latency issue, we can't drum in time. So everyone's out of time. We can't sing in harmony because everyone sounds terrible. I don't know if you ever tried to sing happy birthdays. It's like, you know, do that and drum. It sounds like sheds falling down in a storm. And the whole security of doing this out the comfort zone stuff in a venue far away from the workplace had gone too. Everyone was at home with the dog watching, kids watching, spouses saying, is that what you do at work? And so, it was a complete disaster for me as far as my skills went. But I thought, well, what are the outcomes? The team bonding, doing something together that's different, you know, seems impossible. And, not that I'd advertise it this way, but, change in their neurochemistry by, you know, getting up and moving and, feeling different, doing something different, you know, wearing a pair of sunglasses on Zoom. It's really simple stuff. So I just started playing their music, from my laptop, which at that time is a 2015 MacBook, and sharing my computer sound and getting them to dance and, and move and bang 2 pens together or sticks. Now because they're all muted and they were only listening to music I was playing them, they heard the music. They heard themselves playing along to the music, so they were in time. And the amazing thing was and this was the paradigm shift for me that kinda has sustained me through this year. Everyone's out of time together. So if I play them a track at a 130 beats per minute, some people will be putting their hand in the air. Some people would be putting their head back. Some are you know, so it's it's been a kind of choreography that would have been insanely expensive to, design as a theater piece, but it's happened by chance. So that is very exciting. It's very exciting to facilitate, and it's very exciting for them to be part of. So and I can do that globally. I, you know, I do global events. I don't have to drive anywhere. You know, the biggest journey I do is from the kitchen to the studio. It's on the 3rd floor carrying 2 wooden spoons. You know, so I do charge for transport and equipment. But, that is, you know, it's I I can do these kind of universally, successful events. And everybody says, like, as before where I started, that drumming session was fantastic. They're not playing any drums. Somehow, it's because I've got drums in the background and I might play one drum. Although now I tend to just play, chopsticks or something and get them to play. But there's drums on the on the tracks I play them. Jo, so as far as I know this wasn't in your question, and, you know, that is the beginning of it, but the end of it is I think, when Bryce kinda announces we're coming out of lockdown as they're starting to do now, the main thing I hear from people, not just in the business, but from everyone is kind of anxiety because they know it's not gonna be the same going back to work. Everything's the same and everything's different. And if we talked about inclusion here, and exclusion, everyone's going to be thinking, you know, what is the right protocol? Do we go back? And it's almost like, a bereavement. You don't you don't know what to say, you know, when someone's died or or more than one person's died. You know, what do you what do you say when you get back to the office? The office is exactly the same. The coffee machine's in the same place. The work is the same. It's we we are gonna go through something. Well and it it there was never been through it. I suppose it will be like, the end of the war in a way, the second World War. My mom and dad met him. And my my grand told me a lot about the war. It's gonna be like that. We're we're Joanne Jo, oh, we're back. It's, now what do we do? So I'd and my managers are encouraging me to which I'm designing now, you know, kind of not calling them rituals, but exercises that we can do back in the office to do a checking in, you know, forming a circle, and, just ways to sort of reintegrate ourselves into the workplace. It's gonna be massive. It's really, one of the biggest things of of this, well, this century so far. It's gotta be. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, I completely agree. And even before we get actually step foot in the workplace, we've got to get to the workplace sitting on the train for 2 hours with a mask on because I can't see masks disappearing overnight, there's still going to be some restrictions you know even we're going to be cautious about walking too close to each other, we're going to be cautious on escalators but we want to pack ourselves on the Waterloo and City line anymore nose to nose, bumper to bumper, are we going to be cramming ourselves in pubs anymore? So I think we've kind of got used to having space around us and are we ready to sort of give our personal space back and share it again? And I think there's there's a whole load of anxieties as you say that are yet to come. I think any workplace that isn't starting their workplace workforce planning around reintegration, 100 of thousands of people have been onboarded into an organization where they've never met the people and they've never even been to the physical office. So there's a whole load of people out there that we need to bring, make part, include, will we have screens up still? Yeah. It's yeah. The supermarkets aren't gonna suddenly take down all the perspex on the 21st June. The banks aren't going to suddenly change this, we're not going to get rid of all of those hand sanitising machines everywhere, because there'll still be this risk of return. You know, we're not out of the woods. We may be in fact stated, but we don't know what's gonna go on. They even talk about potential flare up every winter and every winter we're going to have to have some level of social distancing, mask wearing, sanitization, Joanne space, face, whatever we want to call it for the foreseeable until it becomes a part of history and it's just eventually just faded out. Jo, yeah, I completely I completely get it. Yeah. Workforce planning, the work yeah. How we transport and and travel, how we socialize, everything is changing. Cater with that with the Yeah. Women account working from home, you know, there's a lot of gender inequality in the workplace, working from home, there's a lot of social divide around internet have not have internet technology, not have technology. There's a whole load of different experiences people have. They're going to, as you say, come back and grieve over this year year, isn't it? Yeah. And and you imagine I mean, Tom Morley: one of the things I'm suggesting in a very simple kinda movie I'm I'm making, is, you know, as a tip, you know, to to get back, which is what musicians do and it's what theater groups do. At the beginning of the day, you know, every every day, actually, if they're working on a show or working on a production, is you get in a circle, you make sure the circle is circular for a start. And it it this is interesting because on Zoom, the hierarchy of the company is gone. We're all in the same box, you know, in the same size. The CEO doesn't have a bigger box on Zoom, a bigger picture. So, forming the circle and being in the circle is, you know, it will emulate that a little bit. And also the whole thing about being on mute and not, you know, and unmuting yourself that has been going on in circles of performers and artists for, probably centuries that, you you speak, you have a time to speak where which might be, you know, time by timekeeper. 1 minute, 2 minute. You share how exactly how you're feeling authentically. You don't go, I'm fine. You know, COVID's been a bit annoying, but actually, I'm fine. You just go, you know, you, as much grief can come out or as much positivity or as much hope can come out in that time. And then nobody says, oh, yeah. I feel like that. Or, you shouldn't feel that bad. Oh, let's go for a coffee. Yeah. You you're not allowed to say anything like that. You go on to the next person. They speak. They're the great time. Next person speaks. Their grandfather died. You know, da da da. You go around, but you build this kinda circle of trust, and then you go on and you live for that day. And then when you come back the next day, someone else might have gone down. Someone else might come up, but gradually you build this, yeah, it it's, kind of circle of vulnerability, but, support, you know, and, and, and we we're gonna need to do those sorts of things because if we just go back and go, oh, yeah, anyone Jo to Starbucks? You know, it's, other coffees available, but the it's just, it's it's gonna be a disaster as I I know, you know, might as well mention this, but, my mom died when I was 13 and, at that point, I thought the adults in the world knew everything. I I wasn't even told she was dying. I was just told she'd she's she died last night. Sorry to have to tell you. And nobody knew how to cope with it. Nobody phoned my school. Nobody. If a name was spoken, people got embarrassed. I mean, it was it was like living in this crazy world all of a sudden when nobody knew anything that the, the, the illusion that adults could run things was taken from it. And I think if we try to go back to work and we don't acknowledge, like, we didn't acknowledge my mom's death. If we don't acknowledge, what COVID has done, even to the point of, you know, simple things like you're saying, like, not being able to get into higher heels anymore because our feet have expanded. That's just the men. You know, the there'll be all sorts of things that we can't do anymore or don't wanna do anymore. We've got to talk about them and we've got to restructure accordingly because this is the paradigm shift that extinction rebellion were talking about, where everyone said that can't that it don't be crazy. We can't stop the planes flying. We can't stop commuting. You're mad, dear people. Think of Pauline on the checkout. Think of poor Pauline, you know, not being able to get to work. Pauline haven't gone to work for a year. The the world hadn't ended. You know? So it's been delivered to us. We can we can now change. Will we? You know? That would be I would love that kind of inclusion to go, yeah. Alright. We're all in the same boat. You know, the Tories talk talk about it as if we are, but we're not we're not in their posh posh boat where there nothing changes for them. Now, like I said, completely, neutral politically, but they do rather annoy me sometimes. So let's all be in the same boat, and let's say, yeah, this is an opportunity. We didn't see it coming. Let's try I mean, they're already taken apart all the jumbo jets, so we can't go back to that kind of, flying around the world all the time because we're scared of hitting the wrong button on Zoom. So we'd rather go to a meeting. We've been trained. We're returning to a completely different world and we have to acknowledge that, and we have to work with the advantages of it. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, certainly. Oh, yeah. I'm when I talk to a lot of my my clients and customers there, there's a lot more emphasis on storytelling, lived experience, understanding people, people being vulnerable and it's accepted that people can be vulnerable now because as you say, we've all lived through the same storm. Our boats, some of us have engines, some of us the sails are broken, etcetera. So we're different boats. But we we we have got this kind of shared experience where we know that what what's going on in someone's mind. We we can we can very easily say when we meet someone online or wherever that how's it going for you? How's Lockwood been? So we've got this common theme other than the weather to talk about for the first time in British history or the war. So I think it is. I think it's really important as you say to keep telling these stories, not let the dead die in vain, not let the people who have suffered suffer in vain. Yeah. Not understanding the social inequities, you know, the impact of, social low social immigrant groups and their susceptibility to dying of COVID because of the environment they're living in. We're gonna unpack this, we gotta put it on the table and say what this now we shall not propagate this, we've gotta learn from this. And that's I I hoping that the population, the people will tell these stories, and we won't let, if you like, the the ruling class, the government, the privileged try and revert us back and to where we were and just tell it, oh, forget about it. We'll just carry on. Here's some cash. Get on with it. I hope we do put those taken away and say, no, we're not going back. Let's keep what we've learned. Tell those stories. Because if we don't, all we've done is people died for nothing. Yeah. Absolutely. Tom Morley: And and we can tell those stories in different ways. I recently saw admittedly on social media, it was just a meme, But it had, had the the the nations who'd done best in, in COVID times, you know, as far as protecting the population and the nations that have done worst. And you can imagine, gender wise, all the nations who'd done best were run by women. All the nations who did worst were run by men. I mean, it's that simple. So what does that tell us? I wonder whether, given that we've been ruled by men for a long time now claiming they knew what they were doing. They didn't. You know? The women knew. Why don't we just say, okay, boys. You've had your time. We're just gonna give it to the women for the next 10 years. I mean, really, if I if I was head of the United Nations and I had any power, that's what I would do. I'd say, you know, maybe they'll make some mistakes, but crikey, they can't make any worse mistakes than the men who just, you know, cronyism has run rife. I mean, they've, it's been embarrassing the way the world has responded, really. Especially the men. I I feel I I often feel ashamed of my gender and the way they behave, you know, and they just assume power. It's, I mean, they're idiots and and women know how to handle crisis, you know, but if I wanna be general about it. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, for sure. I completely agree that what we need to do is start valuing different personality attributes in different ways. So when we think about empathy, emotional connections, I'm not saying we stereotype women and saying all they have is empathy and emotional connections or saying there are fem what we would consider feminine traits or what we consider masculine traits and we always seem to value masculine traits and big, loud, boisterous, overly confident tends to rule the world. And what we need to look is look at the meritocracy. Look at what makes up the meritocracy, look at what makes someone valuable and start to value different attributes and skills that many men have, but they're they're they're they're often, submerged because they hide them, they cover them in order to fit in with the with their colleagues. And there are skills that women have that are valuable. And sometimes they they they mask them in order to fit into the male world. So I think by looking at the different elements of meritocracy, looking at different personalities people have, they're really analyzing what skills and we need in the roles of business leaders, politicians, world leaders, or whatever that may be. Mhmm. And we we don't try and make this gender bias balance saying, well, men had it men tried and got it wrong, therefore women have a go. What we need to look at is what are the best attributes of the leaders that we want to see and encourage those behaviors in our in our in our children. We nurture that through schools. We create that environment where we're breeding better or rounded human beings that aren't necessarily categorized by gender or by race or by color or whatever that may be. And that's that's the challenge of building this equitable society with the social justice, isn't it? I'm being too, black and white in in talking Tom Morley: about it in gender terms. Yeah. But, I sometimes have to play the devil's advocate to to get the conversation done. But the but you're right. But it's so if we take Jacinda Ardern, you know, on one kind of, end of the spectrum about how the govern where she says, well, GDP isn't, the main thing, of New Zealand. That's not what we're going for. We're not gonna go for continuous growth, which is the basis of capitalism. She says, we're we're gonna go for the the emotional well-being and the health of the whole population. You know, That is seen as revolutionary. Well, it's not really, is it, if you were to run a tribe? And then on the other side, you have these pantomime dames, you know, Boris and, what's his name? Trump. You know? He he could not be, more exaggerated, examples of stupidity, greed, vanity, and absolute kind of desolation as far as emotional intelligence goes. So we have these examples now. And, yeah, and you're right. They're not male and female. They're just, attitudes really to to getting things done. I mean, that's all politicians do. Yes. We give them their money. They get things done or they don't get them done. So, so I think you're right, but let's look around and let's not go, let's draw a line in the sand. COVID's gone. Hooray. Let's all have a party. Let's have a, you know, history or what what was it they talking about? Festival of Brexit. Yeah. Let's get street party, Joanne Lockwood: put put the big tables out, get our flags out, and Yeah. Sing Britannia because that's Yeah. And let's And let's stop being Tom Morley: negative and mentioning COVID and, you know, the 100 of 1,000 that died, you know, through mismanagement. I mean, it's it's it it will happen, you know, will happen. They'll try, but but we must resist. Yeah, we must Joanne Lockwood: resist. Joanne I put you on the spot? I mean when I've listened to some of your gigs and been part of your gigs, I love the simplicity that you say to people about how anyone can play a tune and you say this little phrase and with the phrase you tap the rhythm out of the bait bean can with a couple of chopsticks. Do you have your chopsticks and the bait bean can handy and just tell the audience I love and don't you forget it and how to bring that tune to life. Well, Tom Morley: yeah, given that you can edit this, I can do it. Let me see. Alright. So is this is this a pause? Joanne Lockwood: Tumbleweed. Yeah. The studio is now being wrecked as Tom bends over and knocks over the the guitar on the keyboard. Tom Morley: I'm looking for a cab. I might have to do it on a calendar. Joanne Lockwood: Let me let me see if it works. A calendar's good. I mean, as far as the as far as the audience concerned, they're on audio only. They can't see you. So I don't think whether it's a can or a a colander, it doesn't matter. You can imagine. I did put you on the spot here, and I do appreciate that, I'm trying myself in the north, so I think Don't destroy the myth that Tom's always got a can and a pair of chopsticks in his pocket. Let me see if he'll work on me. Tom Morley: Yeah. We're just about welcoming. Yeah, I can do that. I can do that. Do you want me to still pretend it's a can or shall I say it's a colander? No Joanne no. I mean we Joanne Lockwood: I might even not cut this but just leave it rolling. So this is, tell the story. This is a calendar on the floor. Tom Morley: That, when I studied, Latin American percussion, I mean, you've got you've got the basic I'm just play this on, but, yeah, on a remote control and it wouldn't be, other end of a wooden spoon. So you got clave, which is which is the basis of a lot of, carnival music. And then I say, to people, if you find yourself in the carnival and you feel a bit excluded because, you, you know, you feel a bit white and tourist, just pick up anything on the ground. It could be a tin can. I've actually got a colander here, which, is on my studio floor at all times, and I'm gonna play it with a wooden spoon. Jo and the rhythm is I love you, and don't you forget it? So, even if you you know, so you don't have to remember the rhythm. You just think, I love you, and don't you forget it. You can't even say it a different way than, the way of of the beat. So if you put that with the clave, then, you've you've pretty much got a carnival. You just need a bass drum. I've got 100 of people playing that, 1,000 over the last year. And, and I've also got, you know, with parents playing out, I've got their kids watching. And I say to the kids, you know, kids were when they're when your parents say they're gonna work, they're doing serious stuff, this is what they're doing really. I love that. And then I just get the kids joining in to playing buckets. And, and the other day, I said again, it is is a, you know, corporate team building gig. Everyone was standing up because I get them standing up. Listen. Do you know what we're all missing going on holiday? Bring something to the screen that reminds you of holiday. So they bring goggles and masks and snorkels. And then the the the kids always end up sort of crowding in. They can't resist it. So one of the the this little girl, she must have been about 7 years old. She started doing the crawl. She put these goggles on and she was doing the crawl in the air. And, her dad, who's this big guy, he picked her up. So she was kinda horizontal in the air doing the crawl, but doing it really well. I mean, she was a dancer, this girl, obviously a natural dancer. So I just said to all 30 of them, you know, the board and everybody, I said, okay, buddy, let's do the crawl. You know? So Jo they're all swimming in the air and they were bringing things like suntan lotion and, you know, hats and, you know, all sorts. I said to them, see how many pairs of sunglasses you can jam on your head. Jo some people were wearing 5 pairs of sunglasses, you know, and that began with, them just me saying, why don't you play this rhythm? And it turns into a circus of creativity. And I know you see the, the thing is I've been doing this so long. I know that's not far from the surface in anybody. It's dying to come out and it's, it seems especially dying to come out in lockdown. So, I've just had a whale of a time this year. And and, to to be honest, I'm quite concerned about going back on stage because I I can't even if I see someone in the back row, it takes a you know, who really is a good dancer, takes quite a lot of kerfuffle to get them on stage. On Zoom, I can just spotlight them in a second, or if I'm working with a spotlight, then I just go spotlight that guy. You know? Damn. Let's bring him. Oh, I didn't I don't even whisper it. I think because I can see their name. Bring Jo to the stage. You know, Jo and his daughter. And, they become stars instantly. And what does that do to a team who are used to going on away days and having gala dinners and getting indigestion and staying up too late and pretending they haven't got hangover because they're tough. All that is gone. They're, they're at home and they're just having a whale of a time. And the feedback as it comes in, you know, the chat is, this is incredible or go, Jo, or go, Julie, or, you know, it's, I mean, it's amazing what we've done. And I'm kinda concerned that, because the government say Jo back to your offices because we wanna keep Starbucks and put our open. You know, it's it's nothing in comparison to what they're doing now. You know? Pret Pratt and Starbucks can work out a different business model. I don't want them to fail, but the you know, let's not go, you know, and return to the old thing just to keep the old structures going. We've we've we've built this glorious world of kind of interaction and color and kids being involved rather than being left crying because their dad's at a conference for 3 days and all he's doing is getting a hangover. Like I say, I'm neutral about the whole thing. Amazing. I mean, Tom. Joanne Lockwood: Tom, absolutely amazing. Amazing. I've sat through while being part of many of your Voxstar Activator sessions, both as a a spotlight for you or sitting working on your production behind the camera. And I'm always in awe of you think it's, you know, you think it's a one off, you know, how can anybody do that again? The next time they're producing bass guitar drum kits out of nowhere, then this sort of, African drum comes out and then you've got this sort of like this Japanese thing pops up and everyone's everyone's got these instruments in their homes and they just bring them out, suddenly they're on camera and everyone is dancing, everyone's engaging. The the whole families are involved, not just the people, you know, the corporate business people. Yeah. It's all those all the children suddenly become part of it. And and then mom and dad and the children or dad and dad and the children and mama mama and the children are all joining in together. Making this a family event, aren't they? Yeah. Absolutely. Tom Morley: I mean, talk about inclusion. You you if you know, I've done, you know, pre COVID. I've I've helped out on Family Days companies. It takes them 4 months to organize those family days and they they might get a big top or something. They might get a clown in, but it's nothing like what we do online. And, and it, it doesn't take any organizing at all, except clicking the zoom link. And, if on those family days, those on-site ones, I'd say, okay, I'm gonna email you a list, Bring some sunglasses. Bring a hat. Bring some bring that half the people turn out. Yeah. I never read the email. Whereas if I, if I do it on zoom, now I know all that stuff is in the house. There's no way. If I say right, everyone get a colander and a wooden spoon, they've all got a colander and a wooden spoon, you know, Jo, and they've all got hats and they've all got, as you say, they've all got these surprise instruments. If, you know, if I say, all right, there's, mime, guitar, just with a, you know, wooden spoon or or or mime with a clipboard or something, The screen will fill with guitars and, banjos and, all sorts tennis rackets. You know, it it's phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal what people have got at home. Mhmm. It is. Yeah. And the power of your Joanne Lockwood: your Voxter activator sort of show really because it really does. Everybody feels part of it, don't they? Everybody feels like they wanna take part and they'll it brings out their inner sort of show off almost because they Yeah. Feel safe in their own home, don't they? They don't feel like they're being embarrassed because all they can see is you and them. So they can say Yeah. It's a very safe space, isn't it? Yeah. And, I I mean, I've got guitars Tom Morley: and drums and all sorts here, but very often I say, okay, let's play guitar and I just play a wooden spoon or, so it's, you know, so I'm not the king of the show. You know, and people bring pillow. You know, they play. They just grab cushions and they play them like kind of real rock stars. It's amazing. They believe it, the and because it's, yeah, screens full of their colleagues doing the same, as you said, they kind of build, the energy themselves. Oh, if Pam's doing that, I can do this. You know, if Jo's doing this, it's you know? So it's, They're trying to outdo each other and outshine and Joanne Lockwood: out out guitar each other, aren't they? It's it's rivalry and everything is going on. I just I don't think it's that competitive. I think it's, Tom Morley: okay. So it's more like permission. Oh, I see we're allowed to do this. I don't think they're trying to, I don't get the sense they're trying to beat each other. It's like, ah, okay then. I I get it. It's cloak time. It's, it's kinda that whole thing about the shades I just discovered. Yeah. Well, you've seen her 2 pairs of shades. Why don't you get them both on? And then I if I put 5 pairs of shades on, they'll yeah. Alright. It's kind of insect time. It's, it's it's just outrageous what happens. You couldn't you couldn't you couldn't do it in a creativity workshop if you planned it. It's just play them. You know, play the music, play it out. The their systems are good or they're wearing headphones or and they just get really excited. It's like being at a gig. It's amazing. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. So how can people get in touch with you if they wanna find out more about you, your Voxstar Activator program, or or just generally saying hi. How do they get a hold of you? Well, my name Tom Morley: is Tom Morley, tommoreley. So I'm at Tom morley.com. I'm all over the Internet as well. If you were to put in Tom Morley drums into a search or Tom Morley rock star, you'd find me. But if you come to the website, then you can find everything, all all the tags or and you can email me from there. And, also, that email will also go to my manager. So if you're thinking, yeah, this guy sounds a bit weird, but he's organized. The the if you email me, it'll go straight to them. And if you say, yeah. Well, I just need a price to take to a meeting, you'll get it within an hour. I mean, you don't have to say in that voice. You'd say, I need a price to take to a meeting. So we cater for everybody. And, so there's a whole structure behind me. Luckily, there didn't used to be, but there is now last year, which is great because all I have to do is worry or concern myself with the creativity, and they they do all the contracts and all that. They just send me some money every now and then. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You you do rhythm and groove. Somebody else does invoice and finance. That's the way it should be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they do it really well. Tom Morley: I mean, it's it's a great formula. I wish I'd learned it 40 years ago. There you go. Joanne Lockwood: Well, a huge thank you. It's been an absolute honor and privilege to spend another hour and a bit's company with you. I know we get on and we we talk often but this has been inspirational. I've learned some stuff about that I never knew before and I'm a huge thank you to you, the listener for tuning in and keeping up this far. Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues. And I've got a number of well, I say more exciting guests. I'm not sure if we can get more exciting than the guests we've had already on on the show. But I've got loads more guests lined up, I'm sure you're gonna be inspired by over the next weeks months. Of course, why don't you come on the show? I'm sure you can be inspirational and I'm sure you can bring some some insight into your own world. So please do let me know, welcome your feedback or suggestions how we can improve the show. So email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That will come to me. I won't be passing that onto my manager or anyone like that. You'll get me with that email address, guaranteed. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute honor and a pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.