--- title: "Will Diversity and Inclusion \"Just Happen\"?" episode: 31 date: 2021-03-11 guest: "William Buist" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/31-will-diversity-and-inclusion-just-happen audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-031/audio.mp3 --- # Will Diversity and Inclusion "Just Happen"? Joanne Lockwood is joined by business strategist William Buist to explore whether diversity and inclusion will naturally improve over time, or whether it requires deliberate action. They discuss how legislation can create the illusion that equality has been achieved, while everyday systems and norms still produce unequal outcomes. William reflects on the invisibility of privilege for those who have it, and why allyship often looks like many small, intentional “nudges” rather than grand gestures. The conversation moves into how networking and referral habits can unintentionally reinforce sameness, and how widening personal and professional circles can create opportunity and learning for everyone. They examine inclusion and accessibility in both physical and online settings, noting that remote working can reduce some barriers while introducing others. The episode also explores how recruitment and “merit” measures (like years of experience) can embed bias, and why organisations need to redesign processes and culture to make change stick. Throughout, the focus is on practical culture change, dialogue, and building a workplace and society where people are valued for what they bring rather than excluded by outdated assumptions. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Recognising privilege only highlighted others' disadvantages. - 05:09 — Recognising privilege, fostering inclusive, collaborative change discussions. - 08:48 — Celebrating diversity reveals unique perspectives and learning. - 11:27 — Expanding my network to include diverse people. - 15:06 — Networking challenges: breaking barriers for diverse inclusion. - 19:17 — Everyone's perspective adds value and reduces fear. - 22:16 — Understanding different perspectives fosters mutual comprehension. - 25:13 — Eugenics dangers: judging life by arbitrary standards. - 29:26 — Recruitment processes biased; lacking diversity, inclusivity. - 33:35 — Mindset issues hinder diverse and inclusive hiring. - 37:18 — Merit alone ignores intrinsic biases; diversity matters. - 41:02 — Starting inclusivity is challenging, requires thoughtful consideration. - 45:26 — Inclusion requires ongoing adaptation, both online and offline. - 48:09 — Merit-based success mindset reflects inward-focused mentality. - 52:43 — Diversity inclusion requires maturity and ongoing effort. - 54:12 — Use privilege to create opportunities for others. - 56:50 — Contact Williambuist.com for strategic business advice. ## Key takeaways - The significance of recognising privilege and using it to create pathways for those without inherent opportunities. - The continuous journey needed for societal evolution towards inclusivity, rather than expecting instant results. - Practical steps for businesses to incorporate diversity and inclusion in their strategies effectively. - The impact of focusing on skills over experience to overcome biases in hiring practices. - How to design truly inclusive environments, both virtually and physically, and the accessibility challenges each presents. - Embracing and learning from different perspectives to enrich personal and professional lives. - The importance of setting meaningful timescales and avoiding new forms of marginalisation in the pursuit of equity for all. ## FAQs ### What is the main theme of this episode? The main theme is the necessity of proactive efforts in achieving diversity and inclusion, rather than expecting these goals to materialise naturally over time. ### What does Joanne Lockwood mean by "privilege" in this context? Joanne Lockwood discusses privilege as the systemic advantages certain groups have in society, urging the utilisation of privilege to create opportunities for those who may not have had them, fostering a pathway towards mastery for all. ### How does William Buist suggest businesses address inclusion? William Buist suggests embedding strategic inclusivity ideas into business operations, focusing on diverse skills and talents rather than extensive experience, which helps overcome biases and creates a more inclusive workforce. ### What is the "direction of travel" that Joanne Lockwood refers to? The "direction of travel" refers to the continuous and evolving progress required to achieve inclusivity and diversity, acknowledging it as a long-term journey rather than a final destination. ### Can diversity and inclusion progress naturally without intervention? William Buist argues that while legislative frameworks exist to promote equality, relying on natural progression alone may lead to slow change. Proactive efforts are necessary to drive meaningful and timely progress. ### How can individuals and businesses ensure fair pay and opportunities for all? Both speakers stress the importance of fair pay and creating pathways for everyone to reach their full potential. Businesses should re-evaluate their recruitment and pay structures, factoring in diverse backgrounds and skills. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I have been interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E, Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, of course, the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 31 with the title, will all diversity and inclusion just happen? I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by William Buist. William describes himself as someone who works with clients to ensure they have the clear business strategies and goals to make them stronger. When I asked William to describe his superpower, he said that it is curiosity. Hello, William. Welcome to the show. William Buist: Hello, Jo. I'm very good to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on. Absolute pleasure. I'm pleased we've been talking about this for a couple Joanne Lockwood: of months, and I'm pleased we finally made it. So, William, do you think that diversity and inclusion will just happen? William Buist: It's such an interesting question. And I think there have been, certainly, you know, there's been a lot of legislation over the years to try to help, move this along and make sure that we are treating everybody as we should as equals. And I think the danger is that we kind of think that there are certainly some people out there who now think that diversity and inclusion either has already happened, or that they don't need to do anything more. And I I just think whilst that's possible, if we were to take that view of just letting things run as they are, change would still happen, but it would happen too slowly. I think too slowly for you, too slowly for me, too slowly for the world at large. We need to take action. You know, I'm a I'm a white bloke, So I've had privilege all my life. I've had an unfair advantage, and too often that unfair advantage actually is is invisible. I I haven't noticed that I've had an advantage because I'm the one with it. I think it's always very easy to see the disadvantage if you are the one that is disadvantaged. And I as a result, I kind of, for a long time, not really realized the impact that that privilege has had on on other people. You know, I I see today if we kind of become aware of it as the years have gone by and seen people that I know and love struggling to overcome the disadvantage that the world has thrown at them and and realizing that I wouldn't have had those difficulties. You know, if I want to, open a door into a company, if I if I pick up the phone and and dial the number and ask to speak to somebody, I'm more likely to get through than some other people because I've got a male voice, because I'm a white bloke. You know, and that just feels intrinsically wrong. But if equally well, if you are a white bloke, you may not have really noticed that happening because you pick the phone up, you get put through. So, you know, what what is there to notice? You you've gone to do something and it's happened. It's very difficult to be in the shoes of the people for whom that doesn't happen. And I mean, I know I'm using a very simple example, but but it's true in so many areas. So do I think it would just happen? No. I don't. I think people like me who've got privilege need to consciously do something to step away from that privilege and level the playing field. And I want to level the playing field by bringing the parts of it that are struggling and finding it harder up rather than, you know, damaging and and doing down the good things that are on that playing field. And I think that's, you know, that's a a harder thing to do than just to kind of some of the, you know, muted legislation over the years has sought to do, you know, actively discriminating against a group that's had advantage doesn't necessarily do anything to remove discrimination. What we need to do is think about how do we how do we get into a situation where it doesn't happen at all, where it's not part of the consideration. That's a very that's a different world, not an amendment of the current one. And and I think that's hard. I think it's, you know, we all need to be thinking about how do we do that. Jo sorry. That's a long answer to a very simple question. Yeah. That's a very good answer. We are. Very good answer, I mean I've Joanne Lockwood: heard a saying that, a fish doesn't see the water it swims in until it's taken out of the water And that's often how privilege works, you don't see your privilege until you're taken out of your privilege or you're you suddenly have something that changes your life and makes you appreciate your privilege. And yeah, that's very true. And the other thing that resonates with what you're saying is that we need to involve everybody in these discussions and to demonize white men, to demonize people who have privilege, and not involved in conversations doesn't drive change, so it's about collaborative corporate conversations which is what I believe in. I think the other thing that what you said struck me was that and I paraphrase what you said what we need is rapid evolution rather than revolution. So it's not about throwing away everything we've currently got. It's about evolving at a pace of change that is acceptable to everybody whilst maintaining what is working. And I think that would be more making people more feel more comfortable because I think there's a danger that by being inclusive and being forward thinking, we leave people behind and often people leaving behind are the incumbents and then they feel more marginalized in the same way that I think when we looked at post apartheid, South Africa, then the white community were then marginalized in a different way. So and I'm not saying I I don't understand South African politics Jo I'm not making any judgment call there. But what we wanna try and do is make sure that there's equity in society for everybody and suddenly we don't end up displacing people and say, well, you've had your turn now, it's now our turn and that all that does is create reluctance for change and people will tend to barricade their castle and say well I'm not going to let you in and I think my start is always dialogue, corporate collaboration, talking, cooperation, lower the drawbridge, sit round and in pirate terms, parley, talk about the problems, but not let talking be a preventative of progress. We don't want lots of committees, we don't want lots of tracked out. If we want gender equality, we need to have some really tight timescales, we need to be looking at 2030 and that's not far away. Some might argue that 2030 is a long way away or too far, but we've gotta start making change because it starts in something realistic. But yeah. No. I completely agree with what you're saying. William Buist: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's you you're right. 2030 isn't very far away. It it will be here before we know it, in many ways. And I think if we were to get to 2030 and not have a different world where, you know, people were seen for who they are, how they feel, what they think, the the thoughts that they have, and the value that they bring to the world by what they do and how they behave. And in and in all of that, I haven't mentioned anything on which we discriminate or create this kind of sense of othering that still exists in society. See it every day. See people talking about, you know, immigration in ways that is discriminating against primarily color of skin, but other things as well. You know, religion can come into that as well. And there's this whole piece around, you know, people like me, and I don't mean people like me William Beers. I mean, that sense of people like me as a stronger draw than people who are not like me. And that's always gonna be true. It's part of the human condition. But that's about difference. It's not about better or worse. And too often, it's it's interpreted as better and worse rather than just different. They're not looking for and celebrating those differences and saying, what can this teach us? You know, what what is there about somebody who's blind in terms of the way they perceive the world? Because clearly they're not seeing it. They're feeling it, hearing it, tasting it, and touching it. Now what is it that they get from doing that that I don't get because I look at it? And what learning is doing that? And then and and when you have those conversations, boy, do you learn some stuff that's interesting? And, you know, that takes me into takes me into a little story, actually, about one of the things that I think as a business person that we that we all do is, you know, we're we're we're talking to the people we know, to our clients, to people who have run across us. And and from time to time, they ask things like, you know, a question that starts with, who do you know who? Who do you know who does a diversity and inclusion podcast? Or who do you know who speaks on, speaks on communication skills? And those questions, you know, they're trying to get to somebody in my mind who I know, who I understand, who I think is good at that thing that they're asking about, and who I would refer. And I I remember when I first Joanne, an organization called the PSA, of which we are both members, the Professional Speaking Association, which some of your listeners, I'm sure will be too, but others others perhaps haven't heard of it. And one of the things that struck me very quickly was how collaborative that community of people is and how much referral goes on between speakers of other speakers. You know, for people who are all in the industry of speaking, there is almost no competition because we all speak on our on our topic, whatever our topic is. So we're we're not worried about referring others because we're referring them for their topic, not for ours. But one of the things I noticed was that, there was a tendency for people, and I think rightly, way, only to refer to those people who they had seen speak and who they knew well. And you look at the history of the speaking industry, and the history of the speaking industry was white blokes. And so what you've got is people who've seen white blokes who are really good at what they do, and so the white blokes refer to white blokes. And it's not that they're trying to exclude anybody, and it's not that they're trying not to be diverse. They're just the people that they've seen and that they know. And so I I looked to that and I thought, let me have a look at my black book and see who would I refer. And I started realizing that my black book too was filled with people who were white male predominantly. And I thought this that something should Joanne, and the only person who can change that is me. So I've been spending the last 5 or 6 years deliberately seeking out people from from other backgrounds, other, you know, other diversities, other and seeking to be inclusive in who do I know? Who's in my black book? And I remember somebody we both know that sadly is no longer with us, Joy Marston. Joy, wonderful black lady who who spoke really about motivation and keeping going when times were tough, and and a whole, you know, whole beautiful style that she had. And she was speaking down the road from where I live in Cardiff. And I thought, I haven't seen her speak. I'm going to go and see her speak because then I can put I can put Jo in my black book as one of the people who I would refer, you know, if if if that's worthwhile doing. And, there's 2 things that happened. 1 is that Joy was, you know, quite taken aback to find me there in the audience. It wasn't an audience you would expect to see me in, and I explained why I come to to see you speak. And and we struck up a really strong and enduring friendship, from from having done that. And she taught me an awful lot that helped me with my speaking, which wasn't why I went to Seav at all. And and part of my point here is that when we are inclusive, we're gonna get benefits we didn't even consider when we set out to do those things. And I just would invite listeners to think about where have you got an inadvertent, unintentional bias in the things that you do and say and think that lead you to an a less inclusive group of people than you could otherwise have. And what can you do to change that? Because that's how we change this. That's how we make the world more inclusive. Little a a 100000000 little changes is much better than one piece of legislation that most people don't understand. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I think nudges is a good word as well. We can make a small nudge, inclusive nudge. We can be an ally or whatever. Ally. Ally should just have to be huge massive gestures as you say. It can be a small nudge, it can be a small invitation, it could be amplifying, it could be creating space for someone to have access to something they wouldn't have had without your without your input. And it's interesting what you're talking about networking it's I know many people who come from marginalized or underrepresented communities or are underrepresented in certain positions, networking is often a big barrier because it's generally the domain and I'm not saying historically it was the domain of the white man or the man in power, you had in order to go to a breakfast networking event, you had to have availability to go to breakfast somewhere else where many working women, there are many working parents who aren't women as well, but there are many many working women who had responsibilities for child care, found it very difficult to, to do both jobs, you know, go networking at breakfast and make the children okay and sort out the home etcetera etcetera. And then another networking zone is lunch hour and then and then there's after work networking and again there's often discriminations again against women who have had home and family responsibilities. And as we both know, it's quite difficult sometimes to break into the networking clique, You gotta have a level of confidence, maybe you need to be referred in by somebody. So if you haven't got access to that power and privilege circle, how do you make your first break? How do you get someone to give you that leg in? And as you were saying, the important thing here is just creating that little bit of movement, identifying someone's on the outside and just opening the door and say come in meet my friends this is so and so they're fantastic they they do this and I've used them before and they're amazing. And that's what networking is about, which is to make sure we're doing it to people who are not the traditional people. I've seen people who go network and get all you end up evaluated with someone suitable for the club. They all sit around and discuss about this person, say, well, actually they're not really very business y. They're a bit they're a bit kind of, bit working class for us really. We're here we're a bit more business professional and I've seen people actually creating judgments on whether someone's good enough to join the networking club because of their their social standing. And that was less than 5 that's about 5 or 6 years ago and I think are we we must be still doing that, it must be still happening I can't believe the society's changed that much. But we we are. We're furthering these these as you call it othering, which is a great term. We're seeing people who are different to us as other, the outsider. And and they're still doing so. How how I mean, I don't know how much networking you do outside the PSA, but it's it still happens on on LinkedIn maybe, we're amplifying different people, maybe people like us. William Buist: Yeah. And I think there's I mean, there's a there's a real challenge around understanding who the people in the group are from the outside as well. You know, that as well as as you've rightly described, that whole ethos in a networking group of, you know, are they good enough? And I mean, who who defines what good is for goodness sake? I mean, it's just it's a nonsense, isn't it? And it it's one of the things I think that, you know, we're recording this at the, at the beginning of March, 2021. So, you know, we're we're in a lockdown situation country. We're a year almost a year into, the pandemic and having to work much more frequently remotely. You and I were just chatting before we started recording about how that's affected our business and our ability to reach out to to people and to get our businesses in a wider you know, with wider acceptance. I know I don't know about you, but I've been certainly been chatting to people all over the world in a way that I simply would not have done had I been traveling because, you know, chat to somebody in Australia for half an hour and fly out there to do that. You know? I mean, it was it was it's just not not feasible. It's become it was always feasible before, but it tended not to happen. And now we've got this opportunity to network in a very different way. And I think I I'm delighted because I've seen people on those networking calls and and events and things who you wouldn't necessarily normally see because they're in a wheelchair, or they're blind, or they've got some other disability that that means it's difficult for them to travel or to get out or to to go, as you say, at breakfast time or in the evening when when other pressures come to bear. And that opportunity to have time spent with people for whom you wouldn't normally spend time has just reinforced again to most of the people I know and to especially to me that people are just people. You know, they're just it doesn't matter whether the body's working properly or not. You know, if you've got some physical disability or or what the color of your skin is or what religion you are, we're all human. We all feel. We all think. And we all have we all have the opportunity to listen and process in our own way from our own experience and play back, you know, as you did earlier in this podcast. You know, you listened to what I said and you paraphrased it and you played it back. And then I I'm hearing that paraphrase. What I'm hearing is what you heard tempered with your experience, all the years of experience that you've had and how valuable is it to get that feedback. You know, have I been clear in my communication? I can only tell when I hear it played back to me. And what I'm what I'm delighted to see is that people are kinda having their eyes opened a bit to the fact that everybody can bring value, regardless of their history, regardless of their social standing, regardless of anything. If they're in a conversation and they're bringing to bear their viewpoint, It has as much value as anybody else. And the more we can show that and demonstrate it, the less the more we break down that fear that of the other that we've been talking about. And it's a it's a fear. It's not based on anything systematic other than an emotion. And and the way we break down fear is to build familiarity and and comfort and trust. And I think that's something that this medium, you know, the the the in Lockwood medium of communicating across technology has really helped to do. And I just hope that hangs around when we move back into a more open society where we can meet in person as well. And and I kind of a challenge for those who are listening is how are you going to be as inclusive as you have been on on Zoom and all those other tools when you're back into traveling and meeting people. What what are you gonna do differently because of what you've learned in the last year to be more inclusive? And I think if we all think about that question a little bit, well, that might make quite a difference. Yeah. I I love what you're saying about the listening element here. And, Joanne Lockwood: I mean, we're speakers. We like to share stories. We like to share our own story, and we like to listen to other stories. But One of the things I always focus on is as a human species we tend to be most of our conversations about around trying to sell our own ideas we always want to say we're right, we want to give our perspective and educate somebody. And we do that all the time, you know, not just in professional but when we're trying to to decide which cinema film we're going to go and watch, we want to persuade the other person we're going with, we want to watch our film or their film, we try to come into consensus. What I encourage people to do in a DNI space when even in a humanity space is to start trying to prove yourself wrong all the time, which may sound like an oxymoron, may sound a bit crazy, but if we try and prove ourselves wrong, we'll get to the truth quicker. Because otherwise what we end up doing is trenching in our positions trying to both trying to prove ourselves right. Whereas if I start asking you questions about your reality about your perception, I'm going to learn about you and why you think something. So we're not actually having a debate about the minutiae of the point we're trying to make, we're trying to understand the logic or be or the person behind the point they're trying to make. Because I may not we may not agree on the point, But I may be able to understand that your lived experience where you've where you've been in life, the things that affected you have led you to think this is a good idea. I Jo, well, I don't see it's a good idea because I've had this. And when we start to understand who we are, we start to forget about the point of right or wrong. We just go, actually, I understand about William now and I kind of realize where he's where you're coming from or where you've said that. And we're still we're not agreeing to disagree, we're just agreeing to understand each other's perspectives of why something is different between us. I think that's that's the challenge of trying to prove yourself wrong rather than always trying to prove yourself right because otherwise we we just end up in these entrenched, unwinnable arguments when nobody comes out enlightened or with any more knowledge than they started with. And that's that's because by opening our mind, I can come up with another opinion without having to agree with you. Yeah, show me your workings out. We may have a different answer, but I get your workings out, I can see where we differ. That's I think the power of listening, and reflecting and understanding somebody to just to learn about someone that's perspective. I think that's the power of, you know, when we talk about diversity, we talk about inclusion, it's about the power of other people. It's about those those powers of other perspectives. There's powers of difference of opinions, though, someone from a different ethnicity, a different faith, a different background, a different gender, whatever that whatever the gender identity is. That person has a different perspective on life to me. And I wanna learn about that perspective, so I can incorporate that into my model and go, okay, I know what it's like to be me, but I don't know what it's like to be you. So let me hear your story. And next time I meet someone who's different from me, I'll go, okay, I've heard lots of stories, I kind of get different perspectives now. And is it and I can then be involved in their conversation because I've got that sort of way of thinking in my head and I think that that's the kind of the key thing. But picking up on the other thing you were talking about is the the othering, the the disability. I I watched, on iplay the night a documentary called silenced and it was about disability, people of disability and it was looking at the history of that about the eugenics and about how we were trying to fix people, how people who had deformed limbs had to be put in casts and and how there's this fear of people who are missing limbs and they had to wear prosthetics. It wasn't for their benefit, yet so they didn't scare the other people. So we've kind of built up this disfigurement is scary, difference is scary, difference is other. We want we want to be pure, we want to be a pure tribe for the survival of the species, this Darwinistic type evolution that we're hanging on about. When that turns into eugenics, that turns into sort of trying to fix people, or if we get the technology to understand how someone's going to be born, and they're not born healthy enough, good enough with the right eye color, with the right hair color, with the right number of limbs. Do we do we have made that human decision to decide that life isn't worth living with blue hair, green hair, with pink hair, with red hair? And we say no unless they've got brown hair, they're not good enough or no hair, they're not good enough for the species. And I think that's where it becomes to say someone who is different, has a different quality of life because you can't speak English because you have no wealth, you have no no status means you have got a lesser life. And I think the other point you made was people all think the same, you know, we've all got our brains, we all perceive the world, we all see color and smell and sight or whatever, whatever our abilities are. And we sometimes judge people as being different to us, well they can't perceive the world I do because I'm right, they're wrong. I think this is a danger and silence if you haven't watched it dig it out on Iplayer. It's an hour of documentary and I was completely drawn into the stories, drawn into the the horror, if you like, of the work houses, how people spend 80 years of their life because they were seen as mentally infirm, whatever that meant. They were difficult to deal with, you know, today that would be ADHD, today that might be someone who's neurodiverse, whatever that may be. These people spent 80 years in the in the workhouse cause they had no exit, no one advocated, no one said, hang on a minute, once you were in, you were kind of in and it's frightening and that was less than a 100 years ago, less than a 100 years ago. William Buist: Well, I mean, you know, I'm I'm 62 and, you know, in that in those 62 years, I've seen an enormous amount of of Joanne. And yet, some things haven't really changed at all. They've changed kind of there's a veneer of change that's being put over the top. You know, we we have, you know, equal pay legislation and have had it for a long time between men and women. And yet still, if you by by almost every standard, if you look at the the statistics, whichever way you want to look at them, there is still a gender difference in pay. And, you know, something something isn't quite right. There's always reasons. So, you know, when you start talking to people about why that is, you will always get the defenders who will say, well, you know, maybe the the people who are in different types of jobs are are skewed by gender. And it's not the pay that's the issue, it's the fact that, you know, some some women are doing these sorts of jobs and some men are doing those sorts of jobs, and yet still there is, you know, there is clearly something not right in the state of Denmark as as Shakespeare might have said. And, you know, I think we need to look start looking at these problems, and they are problems, from a different viewpoint. It's not what do we need to do to fix the world as it is. It's what world do we want to build. You know, let's not let if I have legislation to deal with with abuses of a system that already exists because you need to do that, but what world do we want to build for tomorrow? And and I remember I was I was talking to somebody who's who's quite a senior I mean, white bloke, of course, quite a senior guy in a a big infrastructure national project. But one of the things that he was very, very keen to do is to make sure that he had a really diverse workforce. And he was employing, you know, tens of thousands of people, and and he was struggling to get, you know, certain areas of the business filled with what he viewed as, you know, the the right level of diversity and inclusion within it. And I, you know, I absolutely know that his motives were entirely right. And we spent some time talking about the whole recruitment process and and what were the processes he was going through. And in the course of that conversation, we kind of identified a whole host of things that were unconsciously biased towards a certain type of employee, and that certain type of employee would was not diverse, wasn't inclusive. And that's why they were struggling to make it diverse and inclusive workforce. And, you know, by way of one example, and it is one of of many things that we uncovered in the course of some time looking at the whole process end to end, One of the things that they used as a as a measure of should you apply was experience. And, you know, how many job roles do you see that require 2 years, 5 years, 10 years experience? And if you're looking for very senior people, it might be 20 years of experience. So, you know, if you're applying to go on to the board of a company and they want 20 years of experience at board level, you've got to have been able to get onto a board 20 years ago. Well, guess what? All the boards 20 years ago were white men. So who's gonna get those roles that need 20 years of experience today? White men. And and so you you not only do you have the issue that you're not resolving, but you're perpetuating it by just not quite thinking through what does this requirement for hiring actually mean we get in terms of people in the pool that's available to be hired? And when we talked about this, well, what's what's the experience of proxy for? What are you trying to uncover by asking for experience? You know, then you you dig under the skin of that, and it's about good decision making. It's about inquisitiveness. It's about leadership. It's about, you know, a whole host of skills that if you have had all that experience, you will have honed. But when you start looking at the skills, some of them need, you know, a kind of innate skills. You either have them or you don't. Others of them are things that can be taught and taught very quickly, in which case, if if you haven't got them, it doesn't actually matter because you can teach them very quickly and you can overcome that issue. And others of them are not about length of service, but about examples of doing it. So, you know, good decision making. Tell me a couple of really good decisions you've made in the last few years. Right? I don't have to know that you've had lots of experience in decision making. I need to know you'd know what a good decision is and how you're defining, how you measure a good decision, those kinds of things. So, you know, they this you know, in this example, you know, they went away and they took apart the whole recruitment process and started looking at k. Let's not ask for things that are going to favor inadvertently the the the typical person that would be in those roles. Let's instead, you know, change them and look at what are we what are we actually seeking to achieve. They didn't solve the problem entirely. I don't think you can solve it in a single change. But but you certainly started to get more people who were, you know, in a more diverse and inclusive way. And, of course, once that momentum had started, it built on itself. The fear started going away. The othering started going away because now there were disabled people, and it was it wasn't a problem. You know, all the things that people say, well, we haven't got enough disabled loo's if we have all these disabled people. Where are they gonna get the loo? You know, I mean, it's all a nonsense because you just deal with it. And what you get is the talent. You know? And and to me, that's evolving. You anything that isn't about talent that is a problem is solvable. And who solves it? The people with the talent. So get the people with the talent and the problems go away anyway. So I I yeah. That's another one. That's a point of mindset. Joanne Lockwood: Com quite a mindset leap for a lot of companies, though, isn't it? Oh, massive. William Buist: But companies gotta have a mindset leap there where they they Joanne Lockwood: still have this mentality that, as you say they're looking for 20 years experience, they're looking for this they've got this round hole and they want a round peg and anyone who's not quite, you know, they may be round but they're too small that they're not prepared to work them to to train them to nurture them into that position or that they're too big for the hole, you're too old, you've got too much experience. I often hear that. You're over 50. You've got you know, we want someone younger than you who can fit, ageism, sexism, racism, whatever it may be. We we we're masking this this desire for hitting the ground running. We want someone to hit the ground running, which is which is code for we want someone like us, someone like the person who was there before, someone like the rest of the team. And it takes a leap of faith because it shouldn't do because people often see a diversity hiring strategy as meaning hiring for 2nd best. Because if we were hiring for best, we'd be hiring people like we've got already. And I wanna get people to start to reframe diversity hiring into hiring people who are marginalized, hiring people who are underrepresented, who isn't represented in our organization. We want more representation of people of of color, people who have different face, different different genders, different abilities, because we want to have those voices because that's who our customers are. We've got to be representative of the people we serve, we serve customers, we serve our stakeholders, whoever that may be. And it's no different to the disconnect people feel when the government, the parliament is made up of people who are different to them. We we see the north south divide where the people from the north believe that the government in Westminster is representative of people with northern voices seeing their challenges. We see it where there's underrepresentation of women in government where women backgrounds saying parliament is made up of too many white people, they don't hear our voice. So that's no different to us as an organization. We have to be representative, so our customers believe that we're meeting their needs. Our our stakeholders, our investors believe that we're meeting our needs. And now we're gonna factor in not only diversity inclusion, but environmental sustainability goals. Our Earth's footprint, if you like, we're going to try and make sure that we have these, these ethics that cross from people to planet and that's how organizations are being judged in the future. I know you work with businesses and you you coach, you mentor businesses, you know, you Jo from yeah. How about going from strength to strength? Do you see this as something that businesses are starting to adopt? Is this a is this an open door or is this still something you're having to persuade them? William Buist: Is that open door? I said, there's a question. I think it's an unlocked door, not necessarily open. So I think I think businesses, if they choose to walk through it, are not gonna be impeded. They've just gotta, you know, press the door handle and and carry on through. But if they're looking at it from afar, it kind of looks like it's a locked door, you know, and it's too difficult. I'm probably stretching that analogy too far now myself, But but but but you you take my point. And I think it's I keep coming back to the the the way that I I see change happen is when people are exposed to the advantages of having done it without having necessarily to take that step themselves first. So because then they then they want to take the step because it's in their interest to do so. You know, I I remember talking to somebody. It's not that long ago, but it's it's probably pre COVID. So when we were all meeting in a room and and, you know, the debate had started about, you know, as long as as long as it's on merit. So, you know, if if if you're choosing a a person for a job or for a speaker to speak on the stage, as long as it's on merit, it's okay. I I I don't think that that's enough as we've discussed. You know? I think that the trouble with merit is it's measured by things that are intrinsically biased. It's not until you see people, you know, I'm I'm gonna use a speaking example again, but, you know, people in in wheelchairs on stage talking about the reason they were in a wheelchair or who've lost a limb or whatever it is. And you hear these fabulous stories that help you to to look at your own life as a, you know, physically able-bodied, fit, healthy, white male. I'm I'm and hopefully never do, touching wood now over to the side. You know, never had an injury that has has caused that for me. But what I what I do know is that if I did have an injury like that, that I would be on a great adventure. I would learn enormous amount in a relatively short space of time, and there's nothing to fear from that. There is opportunity in it. And I know that because I've seen enough speed people who have had the misfortune to have those sorts of injuries talk about it. To know that, you know, I don't wish it on anybody, but if something happens to me that affects my life in a in what others outside would see as a negative way, what I would see is the opportunity to learn. And that's a mindset thing. We come back to mindset. It is you know, all of this is about seeing culture, you know, our culture, whatever that means. Our culture is, you know, the way we do things around here. You know, so if the way that a business does things is not inclusive and not diverse, then that's the way they do it. And and you've got to change the culture, and that means changing the hearts and minds of the people within the organization in order for that change to take effect and to stick. And and there's another key point, isn't it? It's not just about making the change. It's about making the change stick. And it's too easy to go backwards, and people do that. Now what's the what's the word the Americans use? Recidivists. I love that word because it just rolls off the tone nicely. You know, the the criminals who repeat, offend, of recidivists. And and it's it's it's that same kind of thing that people will make an effort to be more inclusive, you know, almost when they feel they're being watched. And then as soon as they're not being watched anymore, they they they slide back into the old biases. Well, we need to change that for you too. And the way we do that, I think, is is by really letting people see how how much more they can achieve with a more diverse, more inclusive audience, if you're a speaker, with a more diverse, more inclusive workforce, if you're an employer, with a more diverse, more inclusive customer base, if you're if you're a business? You know, how do we appeal, across the whole spectrum of humanity? Solve that problem, but the rest is easier now. Joanne Lockwood: Is it the fear of getting it wrong, Not knowing where to start or the enormity of the task. What do you think is the biggest barrier? William Buist: I think I think there's a bit of there's a bit of both of those. They're not knowing where to start and it being a big a big challenge. You know, and I've certainly you know, I organize events from time to time in my business. And one of the things that, you know, if you're being diverse and inclusive in organizing events, you have to think about is how do I make sure this event is inclusive? So, you know, is there wheelchair access to the venue? Because we haven't had that issue for a year. That's why I think we've seen a more diverse audience on Zoom calls and the ability of people who would quite often struggle to get to a 3rd floor meeting room in a building that only has stairs. Yeah. And and so we have to start thinking about all those things that we need to think about in order to be more inclusive. And that's hard because suddenly you find some of the things that you're doing actually do have an unconscious bias against them. And it's nobody's fault that an office block built in the 19 fifties didn't put lifts in because those weren't the building regulations at the time. And and, you know, we've we've changed the regulations and now, you know, a modern office block will be built with sufficient, you know, facilities to cater for most things. Still don't cater for everything. Don't think because you're in a modern building that is inclusive in its design that it caters for every possibility. It doesn't. So you still gotta think about it. But, you know, then then you say, okay. So if we were going to be more inclusive in our employment, now we have the first time or the first few times we do that, you have a real situation of a very much of them and us. There's the 2 or 3 people we've just employed to tick that box, and God help you if that's what you're doing. It's the wrong reason to do it, but some people still do. And you've got that little group and you've got the big group of all the people who still got a culture of this is the way we do it around here, and that doesn't include those people. And I've seen that happen. I've seen people being, you know, isolated in an organization because they're different. And they've been employed to address the difference, but they're still isolated by their work colleagues. So you've gotta have a real mindset that is about how not just how do we do this in recruitment, how do we make the whole office change its attitude, everybody? And that's a big task. It's difficult. It's it's something you have to put heart and mind and soul and money to because you gotta invest in the training and the development of people and and and possibly address the infrastructure reviews and so on. And that's that's only gonna happen if you really, really believe in the outcome. So it's, yeah, it's too big. It's too hard. It's gonna take too long. All things I've heard. None of which I accept as a valid reason. Yeah. I think Joanne Lockwood: I think it's important to to point out to people who are listening to this that just because we've gone online or you know or our events online it solves every person every person with disabilities problems and we just introduced new problems and accessibility around online events is also a major problem. People I know I know many people who are wheelchair users, but they also have very limited dexterity in their their hands and fingers. So they can't contribute in chat, they can't take part in live polls in a speed quick enough to interact in time. I know people who lip read and sometimes they find online events very, very difficult to lipread. The images are too small, as in there's too much blur, and not everybody's subtitles, not everybody transcribes. Again, it's very difficult and I know with this podcast, this podcast is is it's not really accessible for people who, who can't hear because it's a podcast, it's an audio medium, I don't transcribe it, I don't I don't maintain it's a video experience, it's only an audio experience. But, yeah, I I I'm quite conscious, I'm excluding 6 to 10% of the of the organization of the population who are born deaf, whatever that is, plus the 60% of us who will be deaf at some point or lose our hearing over the course of our lifetimes. Jo, yeah, we've got we gotta think about being inclusive by design virtually as well as physically and making assumptions that people with a disability have more access and it's easier for them now if it's online. It's again, it's not thinking about the individual as being very stereotypical or very, very generalistic about our inclusion and saying what those should be better off now and then excluding a whole different set of people. Jo, yeah, it's a challenge, you know, in large auditoriums, theaters, there are hearing loops, there were other methods to help people who had hearing difficulties access the topic and the conversation, there were screen readers, people who had a sight impairment, got copies of slides in Joanne and they had transcribed or they had them read out to them using a transcription service. So again, a lot of these online events aren't doing that. That's another barrier to inclusion that we all we all start thinking about and as the hybrid world evolves, because think about how who are we excluding still, how can we make it feel more included and it's and that's the continual process. I mean we said at the beginning that we Joanne solve inclusion and diversity overnight, we're not gonna it's getting better, but it's not there yet. We are on Joanne infinite journey, we've still got an infinite way to Jo, it's always gonna evolve, always gonna change, we've always got new things happening. Jo, yeah, I think I think what you're saying there, it rings rings true and resonates a lot. And I love the way you talk about from your own narrative, your own thinking about how about the challenge of inclusion. And they resonate so greatly with the way I think and the way I talk as well. So I'm trying to prove myself wrong as I said earlier. I'm trying to prove myself wrong. I keep hearing what I'm thinking which is which is in a way it's validating for both of us I guess but yeah it's it's nice to nice to get into some into into the weed sometimes. Do you feel as a as a as a white bloke that you're under attack in by the DNI community? Do you feel that you're you're seen as not woke enough anymore? William Buist: Such a good question because, I mean, certainly, I I hear that kind of sentiment, you know, from time to time. No. I don't. Not at all. You know, if anything, quite the reverse. I think I I think, you know, under attack is such an it's it's an interesting thought. Not not in the slightest. And I I think, you know, I think I have a responsibility, but I think we all have the same responsibility. It's just that not everybody accepts it, I suspect. And this comes back to something I was saying earlier about this, you know, this discussion about, you know, as long as as long as everything is done on merit, we'll all be fine. And I just think it's you know, that actually, that comment comes from a mindset that I think does feel under attack. It's a kind of siege mentality that make that takes people to that that kind of view of, you know, as long as I'm okay because everything's on merit and I'm good, I don't mind what you do for others. And that's you know, it's an inward facing sensation. My view is unless there's somebody unless there is literally nobody in the world who's better, you know, that's the time you should hire me. It's when you when you decided there's nobody in the world who's better. Jo, you know, it's almost the exact opposite. I don't want to be picked because I I certainly don't wanna be picked because I'm white and male. Right? So that that that's a given. But I don't wanna be picked because I'm good enough either. I wanna be picked because I'm the right person for the job. And that's I'm I'm carefully choosing my words here. The right person doesn't mean the best person necessarily. There are times to take people on because of what they will learn, not because of what they bring you. There are times to take people on to you know, and I'm not talking about employment necessarily, but, you know, onto a project, onto a stage, onto, you know, take people on to the next level of their lives. One of the one of the things I talk about is, when I do speak from a stage, is about mastery and about the journey we're all taking in our lives to get better and better. And, you know, we kind of start out with no knowledge as a child. We we learn through rote learning. We learn to talk. We learn to name things. We learn to write. We learn to we learn to understand some basics of of chemistry and physics and English and maths and all of those things that we learn at school. We're explorers. We're gathering knowledge. And then we kind of whenever we go to university or we or we go on a training course or we get a job, we're we're novices at it. And the novices are desperate for experience. They're out trying things to learn to get experience. They become practitioners. They're getting good at what they do, and the world lives on practitioners. You know, all almost every job is is about having the right person who is able to do that job well, be a practitioner. You do it for a while. You learn stuff. You become experts in it. You learn nuance and subtlety and that's again it's a different sort of learning. So we've had, you know, learning like a child, rote learning. We've got experiential learning. Now we're learning subtlety and nuance. It's kinda honing skills. It's both a mental and a physical learning. But there's a there's a step further, which is that step to mastery. And and mastery is much less about doing and much more about being. It's it's when you stop worrying about taking a good photograph and start thinking about being a photographer. And that that difference is about learning to let go, learning to understand that what you do isn't as important as how you do it as to who you are, how you think. It's all about mindset, and it's all about being inclusive, and it's all about lifting people so they can learn from all the things that you've learned from. And and, you know, we know those. You know those people when you run into them. They're few and far between, but, boy, do they stand out. And they stand out because they're no longer the one that matters. They're there to support everybody else. Back when we were hunter gatherers, you know, they would have been the elder sitting in the tent who would say, you know, it's time to move the camp because the buffalo will walk next week. And they just knew. I didn't go catch the buffalo. That was for the younger ones who were still getting the experience of how do you hunt. But they knew where to be. And I think that's the journey that humanity is on with diversity and inclusion. And we maybe got to being practitioners right now. And we need we need to we need to develop the expertise. But, ultimately, as society as a whole, we almost need to completely let go of the idea of needing to be diverse and inclusive because we will have become diverse and included. And I you know, we started this call with a question, you know, is it possible that diversity inclusion would just happen? Well, not until we are more mature as a as a race, as a species, and not until we've taken the time, effort, and energy to learn the subtleties and nuances and the value of doing that, then we get there. But it's a long road. You described it as an infinite road. No. I I I don't think it's infinite, but it is long. And we can enjoy the journey while we journey on it too. And I think, you know, that's that's why I don't feel under siege or under threat, to come back to your question. I don't feel threatened by any of this because I'm enjoying the journey. And I'm, you know, watching and listening and learning and improving what I do and what I think so that I can be a better person as a result of that learning. And that that journey is worth taking. Joanne Lockwood: Some might say to enjoy the journey is a privilege. Some might say that to achieve mastery is a privilege Joanne there are many people who would welcome that that privilege and that opportunity so I think let's not deny what you've achieved and what you're achieving or whatever everyone else is achieving But the privilege we hold is the fact that we Joanne do that and that's aspirational for us. I think what you're saying really is making sure that we create opportunity for people, we look at we unpick the meritocracy, we unpick what that's truly saying and seeking to amplify and give opportunity for people who wouldn't have had that opportunity. And that's our pathway, if you like, to giving people the the ability to to develop and grow and enhance so that we're not looking for 20 years experience, but we're giving people a a pathway to to mastery from whatever your background is and that's that's the mission if you like for privilege. It's not only about fair pay, as you say, employing people with a disability, it's allowing those people to thrive in a way that they can achieve their potential, which we all hope is is the mastery, it's the being fantastic practitioners, being artisans in their craft, whatever that may be. And, that's what we that's what I believe we can do as as a privileged people in society is make sure that we use that privilege to amplify and give opportunity to others. I think that's a a fantastic sentiment you're saying there. I think that's that's, it's not idealistic, it's not utopian, it's a state it's a statement of direction, it's a direction of travel, this is where we're heading And we we can debate whether it's a long journey or an infinite journey as society evolves on a daily basis. But you're right. We've got to keep focused on it. We've got to keep putting petrol in the tank, putting air in the tires and keeping on that path because if we stop and pull over our progress will be lost as well. So no very very impactful. I really enjoyed listening to you and hearing your thoughts, it's been very powerful. How can people get hold of you? I mean, you you you you speak, you mentor, you train, have you got a website, have you got a book? How do people get hold of you? William Buist: So yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. The website unfortunately, I have this unusual name, which is which is one of the, one of the real advantages of of, my parentage. I I thank them immensely for that. If if if that was the only thing they gave me, it would be great. They, of course, gave me other things too. But, yeah, William Buist, B-U-I-S-T. Williambuist.com is the website, and william@williambuist.com will get you on email, to me. I'm very happy to speak to anybody about any of the the topics that we've talked about today. But if you're particularly, if you're running a business and and thinking about how do we address the sorts of issues that we talked about today? How do we do that from a strategic viewpoint and and make it embed it in the business and make it long lasting, then I'd love to have a chat with you and talk about how to approach that, and make it make it work for you, from the beginning and ever ever better as as time goes by. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I've just clicked on the link on your website, gone there, and it's it's a great website, very easy to navigate. Jo, yeah, I I would encourage anyone who's, just keen to get a hold of you, yeah, check you out. It's, Jo very powerful. Well, it's been an amazing journey this last hour. I've really enjoyed our conversation and obviously a huge thank you to you, the listener, for tuning in and listening in, keeping up to the end. Please do subscribe, to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast at B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, I'm sure you have some, and obviously your colleagues. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'd be inspired by over the next few weeks months. We've had an excellent, guest today with William. And if you'd like to be a guest yourself, please let me know. I welcome any suggestions and feedback you may have to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Tell me about what you'd like to hear on future show shows. Tell me how I can improve. In fact, tell me you're listening. Tell me you're out there. Please do drop it on LinkedIn. Say hi. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.