---
title: "Personal is Political and How Silence Speaks"
episode: 30
date: 2021-03-04
guest: "Professor Laura Serrant OBE"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/30-personal-is-political-and-how-silence-speaks
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-030/audio.mp3
---

# Personal is Political and How Silence Speaks

Professor Laura Serrant OBE joins Joanne Lockwood to unpack what it means for “the personal to be political”, and why our everyday experiences of inclusion, exclusion, and being given (or denied) equal chances reflect how society distributes value, resources, and voice. They explore the power of storytelling as a bridge to empathy, how perspective shapes reactions to the same event, and how group dynamics, belonging, and fear of ostracism can silence people or push them into conformity. Laura reflects on the particular responsibility that can fall on those who visibly occupy minority positions, including the ongoing work of naming what is offensive even when it isn’t personally felt as offence. The conversation also moves into practical inclusion: asking people what they need rather than guessing, listening for intent and impact, and avoiding “survey fatigue” by ensuring feedback leads to visible action. Laura shares how poetry helps her “download” her thoughts and how her Windrush-inspired poem amplified untold stories, before reflecting on her career and honours as a tribute to the communities, colleagues, and ancestors whose voices shaped her work.

## Chapters

- 01:39 — Personal experiences shape our political landscape.
- 08:08 — Fear of group conformity limits individual opinions.
- 12:44 — Constantly visible minority positions make conversations challenging.
- 17:40 — Diverse challenges faced personally and professionally. Vulnerability.
- 28:38 — Using tools as reference, not instruction manual. Communities aren't instruction manuals, but points of conversation. Ask individuals for their thoughts and listen.
- 31:59 — Opinions matter, but what's the impact?
- 36:27 — Writing poet tree for years, downloading my brain, NHS anniversary event sparks poem popularity, considering book about different rooms and experiences.
- 48:00 — Nominations, policies, and allies spurred my achievements.
- 52:49 — Unexpected visit to Buckingham Palace, overwhelming experience.
- 57:46 — Academic seeking evidence and culture representation. Wellbeing.

## FAQs

### What does it mean when someone says "personal is political"?

When someone says "personal is political," they are referring to the idea that personal experiences, especially those related to inclusion and social justice, are inherently political. This means that our personal experiences reflect the larger societal structures and dynamics that shape our world.

### How does being part of a visible minority impact personal experiences?

Being part of a visible minority means that people often assume every conversation related to that minority is the individual's battle. This can lead to assumptions, stereotypes, and potential offensive remarks. It's important to recognize and respect individual experiences while avoiding generalizations.

### What challenges arise in deciding whether or not to address potentially offensive comments?

Determining when and how to address potentially offensive comments can be challenging. The speaker in this episode shares their personal experience of filtering their responses. They consider various factors such as the context, relationship, and impact, as well as their own safety and well-being.

### What does it mean to be professionally transgender?

Being professionally transgender means that the speaker identifies as transgender but primarily focuses on their profession in their public persona and conversations. It is about being recognized for their expertise and skills while acknowledging their transgender identity as a part of who they are.

### Why is effective communication important in fostering inclusion?

Effective communication plays a crucial role in fostering inclusion. It allows for a better understanding of diverse perspectives and experiences. By actively listening, asking questions, and creating safe spaces for discussion, individuals can learn from each other and bridge gaps in understanding.

### How can we create an inclusive workplace environment?

Creating an inclusive workplace environment involves allowing individuals to be their authentic selves without fear or discomfort. It requires providing education and support to help everyone understand and address inclusion challenges. Effective communication, empathy, and embracing diversity are key aspects of fostering inclusivity.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, have been interviewing a number of amazing people as simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, I'm generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to joe.lockwood Lockwood c changehappen.co.uk. That's sw changehappen.co.uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 30 with the title. Personal is political and how silence speaks. I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by professor, Laura So an OBE. Laura describes herself as a black woman, nurse, academic and queen. When I asked Laura to describe her superpower, she said, it is my story of self embracing silences and silos about inclusion. Hello, Laura. Welcome to the show. Hello, Gerard. That was a wonderful introduction.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: And, yeah, it's been a while. We've been waiting to speak, so I'm really looking forward to it. I've got my decaf, so, I'm ready to go.

Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. Wow. Yes. We have we've planned this months ago, didn't we? Tell me about personalist political and how silent speaks. What does that mean to you? Wellbeing I

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: don't know if you've heard the phrase person as political before. It comes from, a really well known book, the women's room. Now I read that book when I was 7, believe it or not, for the first time, and I kind of remember stopping at that phrase and thinking, what does that mean? And I didn't really understand it. And I reread the book when I was seventeen. So 10 years later, and those words just kind of pow, kind of hit me. And what I realized was that what it really meant was that the things that happened to me, which up to that point, I just thought, oh, well, that's happened to you, Laurel. That might happen to one you know, but it's just a thing that's happened. I've realized that those experiences, particularly around inclusion or around feeling left out or around not being given an equal chance were actually what politics was about. And I know people think about politics in terms of, you know, which party do you vote for, etcetera, etcetera. But for me, politics in a in a kind of social sense is about distribution of resources, who gets what, who counts, whose experience is promoted, and whose experience is kind of maybe even vilified. So the politics of living and the politics Wellbeing with diff ourselves is really what counts. So the my personal experiences, our personal experiences, are the political point. So the personal is political. That's what counts. So in my experience, yours, and what happens to me is not just me. It is really a reflection of our world, I suppose, and and where we live.

Joanne Lockwood: Well, yeah, I just, as you're speaking, I'm just reflecting on this. Storytelling is so powerful, isn't it? They are listening to people's lived experience. It creates that empathy bridge. It allows us to what's I can never understand what it's like to be you. What I can do is take your your story and try and relate it into language that I can understand. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean,

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: I I say to me that is my superpower, as you mentioned, at the beginning, and it's all our superpowers, is that we are the we are 100% the experts on our own life. We don't need to, you know, we don't need other people. Other people can comment. They may influence. They may affect. But we are the expert because even when we all experience the same thing, we're all in the same situation. We all see and feel something different. And so that story, my story, the story within me is not only my superpower, but it's knowledge that only I have, and it's really, really important, I think, to hear stories of each other to share stories. It's it's how it's what makes us human, isn't it? It's how we learn. It's how we become the people we are through stories. I love

Joanne Lockwood: that. We are our own expert. I love that. It's a great, great, great sound bite. And they're so true because when I some of the training I do. I talk about the equation, e plus r equals o. So e as an event, something occurs. Yes. The r is our reaction to that event, and that leads to an outcome. But what we often get is the plus is our perspective, our lived experience, ourselves bringing into our our narrative or our view of that event which -- Yeah. -- so different people see the same event. These are different reaction and therefore a different outcome. And we often forget to understand someone's lived experience as to why they think react or perceive differently because we're so focused on the outcome, not how we get there. Yes. That's why the stories are so important, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, we

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: see it every day. I mean, when we watch the news, you know, when they have eyewitness reports, The eyewitness reports are always slightly different, which kinda makes you think, oh, how can that be? Because if everybody saw the same thing at the same time, How can the stories be slightly different? But, of course, what just as you've said, what we forget is that what you see depends on who's looking. Where you're standing? And where you're standing relative to that. Well, you have

Joanne Lockwood: stood in the past. Yeah. Your history. Exactly. Your socialization. You're upbringing. Your what's what makes you happy, what makes you sad is a is a good influence on on your reaction as well as not. Yeah. I mean, it's almost you know, the

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: the wonder of the mind is is fabulous, and it's almost instantaneous that whatever we, as we speak, it's filtered, even without us knowing it's filtered through our experience. It's filtered through our expectation. And it's filtered through how it feels to be in that moment. So it's already our interpretation of events is already immediately interpreted by ourselves.

Joanne Lockwood: And this is where we phase into unconscious bias it plays into that whole set perspective is also a type of bias, isn't it? Because we it's our fast brain, we discuss straight into memory, fill in gaps, make assumptions, etcetera, etcetera. And this all comes from our perspective, our lived experience. Isn't it? It does. It comes from our lived experience, but

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: also I think as as we are social beings, our lived experiences also affected by the people around us. And their reaction as well. So almost immediately, we're using our own experience, but we're we're also checking it out around. I mean, I don't know if if you've ever been in in a situation where an accident has happened, and I don't mean there's something catastrophic. It can be something even as a small child, it it could be something that's easier as, you know, something getting knocked over, you know, or broken. Almost immediately where we've got the shock of looking at it. And then we look at each other. We're looking to see how other people are reacting. So we we look for that kind of community of reaction as well, which which is really important. Kind of that group think

Joanne Lockwood: sometimes that if you're not careful, isn't it? Yes. It's I mean, I I offer the only other thing I I'm very conscious of is when we live in our in our tribe, our group, our socialized circle, our echo chamber. Yes. We have this in intent need to belong to this group. We wanna feel part of something. And often our views are merged into the groups. Yes. So we find it very difficult to have our own individualistic opinion for fear of shunning or ostracization from the group. You know, I'm I often talk about if you're a man in IT supporter and a lovable supporter, you have you almost implied that you have to have a rivalry And then you can't almost you can't, you know, allow to acknowledge something great about the opposition. Despite the fact that you may want to, but because your group, your tribe, unleashes you back into this conformity box, or you'll be kicked out and and into the world on this. And I think we could be very careful sometimes that are what we use for safety in our groups and our our our our family units or wherever that may be could often reinforce biases or perspectives that maybe we're not, we're a bit worried about breaking out of.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Yeah. Because I think part of it is that there's an issue of personal safety that people feel, and that comes along with feeling accepted. So I think often when we're in a group situation, and we certainly see this, don't we work? We see it with with groups of people of all different ages that we we're we're kind of trying to check out, am I accepted immediately? And if not, what do I need to do? To make myself accepted or what needs to happen in order for me to be accepted. And that's part of the kind of, I suppose, unconscious way in which we we we measure our position within a group. We we're kind of trying to we're trying to position ourselves. We're trying to locate ourselves in a particular situation. And that happens, you know, at home as well as at work. We look for clues that that will help us to see whether we are accepted or will be accepted within this group. And that's

Joanne Lockwood: where the belongingness, the inclusion, bringing your whole self to the group, if you like, so that you know what you can bring, what you can't bring, what opinions are good opinions, what's outer kilter of the group. Yes. So all that social dynamic occurs, isn't

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Yes. It does. And and, you know, I think that I don't know about you, but certainly in my experience as as a as a black woman sometimes in those groups is that something may not necessarily strike me, around race and ethnicity, let's say, particularly about our conversation. But because I'm aware of my position, I do feel a sense of responsibility to raise that issue. It may not be my issue personally, but I feel that if I'm not in the group who if I'm the only one in the group, who else is going to raise that that point or give that different opinion. And I don't know, as I say, sometimes it's quite difficult because people can often assume that because I raise something, it's my issue personally, and it isn't necessarily my issue personally, but it is an issue that may affect my tribe or my group?

Joanne Lockwood: Oh, I I had this kind of debate yesterday on Facebook as it happened. And I was trying to get across the difference between something that is offensive and that I wasn't offended. So I wasn't personally offended, but it was an offensive remark. Yes. And it wasn't about me, but it was about the perception of this topic. The other people I know would find that conversation offensive, although I'm hardened to it, and I don't find I'm not offended by myself, but I know it's not a good conversation to have. And Someone's almost calling me, you know, calling me out as a snowflake or a politically correct person than trying to whatever. And and and telling me I was offended. I said, oh, I'm not offended. I'm just pointing out that what you're talking about is potentially offensive to somebody. And that all I'm asking you to do is consider who may be listening or watching and that that's the impression you may give. And it was really hard to get across the difference between how I feel and and what is being perceived as.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Yeah. I I I think that that's something that we that's been around for a long time, and it's quite difficult, because I think when you occupy a when you visibly occupy a minority position, okay, so it's not something you can avoid you know, because people will know, you know, even if you say nothing, even if the conversation's not about that, you know, even if you're in Tesco doing your shopping or whatever, you know, it's, you know, you it's with you all the time. It's not something you can choose to take off or put back on. When you're in that position, And people there often assume, and I I I know I've had this, that people assume that every conversation that relates to the thing that you are visibly part of is actually your your battle. So, you know, an experience tells me that I also filter that. So I filter that as to whether or not to say something, and that's where the the the the challenge comes about being offended by something and and knowing something is offensive or has the potential to cause offense And it also happens, I think, with, you know, friends and and members of my family who are not member of the same visible minorities as as myself, that people have said to them, when they've raised an issue, say, about race and ethnicity, if they're not, black or minority ethnic themselves, they'll say, well, why do you care? You know, it's almost like there there is a we we we reach a situation where who has the right or who the right all the responsibility to raise an issue has been to be offended. And, actually, that is that's always a really tricky one, isn't it?

Joanne Lockwood: I I mean, it's often said that to be offended as a privilege, most people don't have the privilege Wellbeing offended that they just are, if you like, or choose whether to be offended or not. And you're right, so right about just being you sometimes, you feel this obligation to represent and be a role model for whatever your characteristic may be. And that could be quite exhausting. It is. Because you you

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: can't you can't choose not to be. But there's always a sense of responsibility as well. And I and I say I do I do it's a it's a it's a tight rope. That I think that I learned to walk because I, you know, buy, by a whole range of of situations, some due to my own direct efforts, some due to being in the right place at the right time, some due to circumstance, some due to to some good allieship by people who did not look like me. I have I am in a position where I am in spaces where there are not many people like me or with my particular social background or experience, etcetera. So there is some responsibility when you're in those spaces to say the things that have to be said to have those disruptive conversations and those challenging conversations, but it but it is a responsibility that you carry and you and learning to live with that is kind of part of the personal political balance.

Joanne Lockwood: As you're thinking, thinking that, I'm just thinking, I often say that I I've kind of cheated because I'm professionally trans whatever better way of putting it. Whilst I don't always talk about that as my primary conversation, it's part of who I am. It's my It's my Wellbeing to the conversation is my that lived experience. And I can't take it off. I don't hide it a bit. So I I own it. But it means that I can, I have a privilege that because I'm professionally my personality, I don't have to hide any part of me because that's what people are expecting? And I have a lot of empathy for people who are a Java programmer, a, as an accountant, whoever, who have the same characteristic as myself, a lot of people, and they just want to be a great accountant. They don't want to be professionally trans or black or whatever. They wanna be an accountant. So I feel like I kinda cheat sometimes because I'm allowed to be me because that's what I do. And I don't have I don't have the same battle as somebody who wants to be the accountant first. But at weekends, I wanna be able to take my professional hat off and just go back to being the Sainsbury shopper, you know, go back to my day job of being a human being. And that's where I find sometimes my shield of armor is let down. I want vulnerable I'm now back to the world of of the accountant trying to be an accountant. I'm the Sainsbury shopper trying to be a Sainsbury shopper, and that's where I feel -- Yeah. -- defenseless sometimes because I don't have my my my my my professional armor around me. Professional

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: armor. Yeah. Yeah. But I but I I would actually I mean, I think I would I challenge that in a in a way because I just think it's a it's a different challenge. It's a different challenge. It's not it's not less what is different. And, you know, very much, you know, inclusion and diversity is around equal, but different. So recognizing the difference, but seniors are just a different way of being. And I know what you mean. So, for example, when I go to when I go to the shops, whatever, I mean, you know, I tell I'm a black woman doing a shopping, you know, a middle aged black woman doing a shopping, you know, and, I noticed different things. So, for example, when I was a lot younger, if I was walking down the road and there'd be a group of young, young working class men of whatever group, you know, black, white, whatever, they're all crowded on floor as a young woman walking past you know, they'd have a look at you. They, you know, they probably would they probably wouldn't step out of the way so that you'd have to work your way through so they can slow your path and I would walk towards them thinking, oh, what's gonna happen now. Okay? As a fifty seven year old woman walk in the same street, I walk down the road, and they all step off the pavement. Now I don't know. Now I know that's politeness. You know, they but, obviously, they're looking at me and thinking this could be my mother or even possibly my grandmother. So I'm I'm no longer in this fear of having to create a reaction. I'm just, you know, oh, you're right. Oh, and they nod And, you know, even though they might be, you know, being a bit boistery, sure that they tend to walk and let me go past. And if if somebody in their group doesn't move, they'll say, move. And move them along. So there's something about we are differently presented and challenged, but on the other hand, professionally, as you say, when I turn up and I'm doing a presentation or I'm doing a talk, they know what they're getting. So they're expecting a politically astute politically aware, black woman to talk about inclusion and diversity, and they they they filter me differently. And I think that's what it is, but you're you're vulnerable. So my vulnerability, I feel more in the professional space if people are not expecting me, to look like I am. And that's the thing, isn't it? It's if the if if if I'm going to a meeting and it's not about inclusion and diversity, it's about something else. People may have spoken to me on the phone. They hear my voice. I'm not necessarily what they're expecting to walk through doing. I've actually had people say, oh, You weren't what we were expecting. I don't know if you've had that, but they let you think, oh, you're actually saying that out loud, you know, or do you can you hear yourself?

Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I've had some face similar because because the two sides of the work I do, some of it is around trans awareness, LGBTQ plus. But a lot of the work I do is around more generic inclusion belonging. I don't want it. I do focus groups, interviews, facilitated workshops, those sort of things. And I don't sign post anything about me other than Joanne Lockwood, inclusion, plumbing specialists. So I I have, I mean, I stood up on stage in front of six hundred people, And I know people are gonna go, well, as soon as I start speaking, because my voice -- Yes. -- is not congruent with my with my visual image. And I know that's part of my reaction power, if you like, to throw that and land at the beginning and own the room and get people to look back and go, oh, that wasn't expected. But I've I've run training sessions, recently for a European network, and they they do evaluation forms at the end. And and I've I've run run this this this event twice. And twice, I've had a common comment on the evaluation form saying, I really confuse why Joanne's voice it doesn't fit with how she looks, and that people are actually remarked about it. Do you think there weren't so worried about my content. There were just there were just confused by my voice. It's like, oh, well. It's the way it is. Yes. Well, exactly. And that and that's the thing. So I think that the

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: point you're making about being Chad, I think we're we're differently challenged different spaces. I was speaking, I remember, having a conversation with my partner, And, you know, he he's white, he's English, you know, Yorkshire born and bred, you know, all the rest of it. And for him, he he notices, I'm his first black partner. So he he notices now things that I don't notice. So he'll go not so much now with years down the line, but he at the beginning, he would say, well, people are looking at us. I've gone, yeah, they'll lockwood for him, he couldn't understand why they're looking at us? You know, it's because he's not had that within his experience. Now he has that. Now he says, I just look at him straight back, but, you know, before he was slightly confused, and it just shows that, sometimes we're with our friends, and our colleagues. And this happens at work. It happens in different places where, you know, they're sometimes more likely to hear some of the negative comments than we are because people have some kind. Most people have a filter week saying, well, actually, I'm not going to directly address this with Joanna. I'm not directly gonna talk about this with Laura because I really like them because I'm I might be on steady ground, but they might speak to our colleagues, our peers, our families, our partners, because unless they out themselves as being related to us or working with us, people don't know. And they're kind of thinking, often thinking, At what point do I say I'm offended, or what point do I say my partner's black, or what point do I say my partner's trans, or what point do I say? You know, you know, my mother or my father or what? At what point do I do I say? Cause they haven't got that obvious if you like safety that that will allow people to think twice before they say things to them, and how do they cope with that? And that's often something I get asked. That's really

Joanne Lockwood: interesting because I've got a good friend who shared with me about probably about a year ago that people kept coming up to him. And saying asking questions about me, you know, how should I talk to Joe, this, Joe, that, Joe, and he just just don't wanna say, Why didn't you ask Joe? Yes. You don't ask me. I'm not Joe's agent, you know, kind of a champ and Joe. And, but sometimes, I guess our friends often get put in the position where people go to them because they don't people don't wanna maybe offend us or they wanna yeah, they don't wanna show their anxiety to us. So, yeah, it's quite interesting. Well, I was gonna say

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: sometimes sometimes people are, with good intention if it's not within this sphere of experience either directly or indirectly, they really just don't wanna get it wrong. It's, you know, that's I think that is probably the the major driver. They don't know how, you know, how to do it. So they go to somebody who they assume or they see seems to do it okay. And so I think that's one of the good one of the key things I would say around kind of inclusion and belonging work. Is that is recognizing that it, you know, it's not about focusing on the members of the minority group. And fixing them or helping them. It's not just that. It's also more about the general population. And kind of moving beyond just telling them the rules and regulations to giving people actual ways of living and working with the with inclusion issues every day. The everyday issues, what do I do? What what words do I use? Is it okay for me to just ask you know, how do I actually approach that? And and and as I say, for them, we often don't know what people's per and all lives are like when we're at work and and we see them for that split second in business or just between 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. So, you know, how do we help them so that they can be their wholesales? They don't have to hide the fact that their partner, family, sister, brother, best friend, whatever. Belongs to the the very group that you are using offensive language about or where they feel uncomfortable. Yeah. I don't know about

Joanne Lockwood: you, but, I mean, I I know when someone is has good intent. They're being curious. They're being respectful. And whilst in the back of my mind, I I'm from the saying, well, here we go again, another another person asking this question, I also want to leave them with a great feeling about me, about people of my characteristic. So inevitably, I will always respond in a very positive way. Because I respect someone's honesty and curiosity, and I don't want to just push them away and get angry with them. Absolutely. And

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: I think that is the key thing. It it's it's not what you say. It's the way in which you communicate something. Helps people to understand your intent. When I was, training as a nurse, this is, you know, way back in the early 1980s. When I was training as a nurse, One of the things that, often struck me was, patients and other, colleagues I worked would ask me questions that I would think, well, surely everybody knows that. And I realized that they didn't know that because they'd never experienced it. They had lived in places where they never had a black next door neighbor or knew anybody in their family where that had happened. So, but what I felt was I was their first experience of that, or at least I was made them feel that they could ask the question. And I always said to patients, to all the students, as I grew up and started, obviously, supporting students and learners to say There's no shaming, not knowing the answer. The only shame is not asking the question appropriately. You know, so you just ask the question. And if peep people are more than happy, I mean, the whole thing about stories where we started, people love talking about themselves. You know, that's just, you know, they lack to know that people are interested in them. And so that's why it's the and so the intent of why you're asking about them. And more importantly, waiting and listening to the answer is really, really important. Yeah. The active listening, the mirroring, the nodding, the

Joanne Lockwood: repeating the words Yeah. Very important. Yes. I mean, going back to what the, yeah, the phrase you said earlier, the sound bite, we are our own expert Yes. So you don't need to ask somebody else about me. Ask me. I'm my expert. I don't know what makes me happy. I don't know what makes me sad. I know what you can do to help me. Yes. I mean, we talk about this in when we talk about disability, people often say, well, How can we make sure we're accessible for this person? Well, ask them. Ask them. Don't don't guess. Ask them. What do they need? And they will they will answer you. Yes.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Absolutely. And I also think it's it's about using some of the tools that we're giving as reference points not as an instruction manual. So often, you know, we, you know, we all have, or within businesses, certainly, within learning and and training. There may be lists or information given around different communities, you know, just for knowledge of understanding, certainly around erasing religion or or belief systems or or things like that, but they're not they're not a instruction manual. They're more like a reference menu. So you know, if you know, for example, oh, I don't know. I know that in general, this community, this is something that may be an issue or this is something that goes with this particular religion, That's the start of a conversation with the individual person to say, I've heard this. Is that true? How what's your thoughts about that? Because we all live our identities. We all live our cultures. We live our positions differently. You know, and that's where we, you know, opening those conversations, recognizing that you're as as you've just said, that we're already talking to the expert in the room even even our parents don't know us as well as we know ourselves. And so, you know, if you're gonna ask know, you could ask, you could ask my parents about what happened when I was born because, obviously, my memory of that is not quite as strong as me. But if you wanna know what I think about something, what land, why what you want I want you to call me, how I'd like you to approach me, what I'm happy to be engaged in, then you need to ask me. And take the time to listen to my answer. Don't pretend to ask me. Don't do a survey and then have no no, you know, allowing to see nothing changes based on my my responses. And that's not the same as doing what I say. That's actually being evidence in that you're listening.

Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. I mean, it's, yeah, that is so true. I mean, people claim about survey fatigue. It's not survey fatigue. It's lack of action fatigue. Yeah. People get frustrated by being asked what they think and nothing ever coming of it. That's -- Yeah. -- that's the struggle people have. Absolutely. I mean, we -- I'm just

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: gonna say absolutely. We're seeing, research, a lot of the research that was done in the kind of sixties seventies around, different community a lot of the anthropological. That's a long word for Wednesday morning. Anthropological, studies. What they actually show is that people get tired. Peep there's there's a a somewhat much more famous me who said, people get tired of engaging in work, which does them no good.

Joanne Lockwood: Well, they don't understand the outcome. There's no -- They don't see any change, any

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: difference. No action. Follows the inquiry. An analogy I often use

Joanne Lockwood: is the difference between blowing into a straw and blowing into a balloon. With a balloon, you blow the balloon. You could see and feel the balloon expand. You've got a reaction. Yes. With a straw, you're just giving, and there's no feedback. Yes. It becomes tiring. It becomes exhausting and frustrating. Whereas the balloon, you've got a reward, haven't you? Yes. That's the difference. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that that is that is

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: absolutely key to that. You know, you know, I remember from when I was a lot younger, people used to say to me, Laura, what do you think about this? Now you say to them, you know, if you if you don't want my truthful opinion, don't ask me. Because I'm not gonna give you the answer you just wanna hear. And then also if I've given you my story, giving you my opinion, giving you my thoughts, I've invested in this. So where's the return to of my investment? How is that going to do me good? And I don't mean necessarily financially individually. How am I gonna feel that my contribution makes a difference? Can you answer why I call the so what question? So you're asking me what I think so what difference is that gonna make? Yeah, or

Joanne Lockwood: what's your why? Why does it matter that I have an opinion? What are you gonna do with that? Exactly. Exactly. And that's often the mistake businesses make when they're implementing DNI policies or processes. So what is the why? Why are we doing this? What difference are we gonna make? What's the outcome? Exactly.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: And what difference does it make here in this business? Not what difference does it just makes the world? I mean, you know, we're all have the altruistic, you know, we all do our lockwood any changes in the world. Absolutely. But in in a business sense, why is this important and how is this important and how will I know that this particular business has made those efforts How will I know that what I've contributed within the organization I work in is valued? And I see the only way I know that is by seeing they used to say the Wellbeing the responses. But if everything's just the same, you know, where we we just this week is you know, 1 year since George Floyd, if everything is the same, so what?

Joanne Lockwood: Too often people are focused on these performative actions. This or we could do the right thing. It's the hygiene. It's the compliance.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Yes. We all know that to make something

Joanne Lockwood: sustainable, it's gotta have a business outcome and and beyond the, it's the right thing to do. Businesses, our businesses, and we have to respect the fact that they they want to see an outcome. They want to know why it's going to benefit their customers themselves why it's gonna make them more creative. Because we see the McKinsey reports. We see the stats. We all know that about diverse, inclusive companies are more this and more that and more the other Yes. Yeah. The facts don't change people, and we're not doing it because people don't understand the why and the outcomes that they're gonna get from that return. And they don't join up their processes. They don't have their hiring teams aligned with the marketing team aligned with the business and the operations objectives, hire as golf and hire as quick as possible, whoever's available without thinking about the the overall goal of the organization from a DNI perspective. Yes. The product designed and always consider all of the people. So, we often think of DNI's people function is isn't more than a people function. It's a it's a business function. It's not -- It is. It's very much

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: a whole system's approach is what they need. Because otherwise, people get stuck and also people are let down. And, you know, bad news travels fastest So, you know, it's not enough just to appoint somebody from Madago's background into a role if the system that you're putting them into hasn't been considered. Because then they just fail, and then that's another failure. And then that's also somebody else who who has invested their time and themselves for you. But also business wise, it also reflects badly. You know, it always reflects badly.

Joanne Lockwood: The theme we started with the storytelling and you shared a great way of, again, a note on it is ask. So I'm really, really curious. You know, I've we we spoke before we went live on the recording about some part of your identity that you're really proud of as part of your background that's brought you where you are now. But I've before I talk about that, I'm really fascinated about you're an occasional poet.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: So what kind of poetry are you writing, and what's it about? Well, it's interesting. I've been writing poet tree for years, actually, for for a long time, but not just for myself. Poetry is my way of what I would call downloading my brain. I've got, you know, I'm one of these people whose brain always seems to be on the go. And and, sometimes I get stuck know, like, you've got to kind of reboot your computer. Some so poetry is the way in which I download some things that happen, and and it literally has just been the way of doing that. But then, in 2018, you'll remember it was the 17th 70th anniversary of the NHS. It was also the 17th anniversary of the Empire Windrush, landed at Tilbury Docks, and I was chairing a conference I was due to chair a conference, for NHS workers around, you know, kind of celebrating the NHS, diversity of the NHS, etcetera. And we were looking for we were all helping the organization, and we were looking for some poetry to be done. As in black as an interlude between the formal because it was a bit of a celebration as well as kind of like information, give it. And the the group that we're putting together didn't really have funds. They were it was very charitably done, and they inquired 2 professional poets about writing a poem for the event. And the cost was a bit too high. They couldn't really afford it. So I I don't know what happened to me. I almost had a rush of blood, to the head. So I said, well, I can write you something. I don't mind writing something for you. So I actually wrote it's the first time I wrote a poem, specifically on demand rather than just doing the downloading. And I wrote a poem, called you called and we came. And it was actually about the the Empire Windrush coming post war, to and the the nurses and doctors and that people who came to help the British empire after the war to rebuild, and the experiences of racism and you know, non inclusion and belonging, as I call it, that occurred after that. And that was the first poem. And this poem just went Stella, people have used it over and over again for Black History Month for various things. I've performed it. It's become part of a play. It was a part of a ballet performance. That was done by hitting the northern ballet. And since then, people have asked me about writing poetry, dwrap poems, I've realized I've got lots, hundreds of poems. So I'm now considering because people keep asking me I'm considering whether to, I'm considering writing. When I say considering, I started doing it really. A book based around not all my poetry, but the book is, I think, is going to be entitled stories from my mother's house. And I'm going to frame it around different parts of the home and the house. It's not because the poems are about a house, as somebody asked me. It's more that if we think about the rooms in our house, it's about like the rooms in yourself, And different rooms have different kind of spirits, different meanings. You know, the kitchen, for me, as a as a black woman, the kitchen is the heart of the house. It's family, it's belonging. It's social. So and it's about Wellbeing. You know, the your bedroom is kind of your own sanctum. It's your space. I mean, a reflection. It's your place of peace, of taxation. So I've got different poems about different moods and different experiences, and I'm thinking of that the chapters of the book will have a intro if you like about the rooms in my mother's house, and then the poetry will follow. So that's what I'm creating at the moment. So poetry is -- I love it. I love it.

Joanne Lockwood: -- is a sense of me. Yeah. It's it is my inner story,

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: the poem. I think that's, I think that's really great. I

Joanne Lockwood: mean, my wife dipped a toe into the water of writing a book, and she designed each of the chapters around a song that meant something to her at that particular phase of her life. Hasn't got published yet, but she's still working on it, but it's all she started with the songs, which evoked a feeling and put it back in that place of being that age in that situation. Yeah. And the song was kind of the trigger point for that moment in her life, and I thought that was a really good way of doing this up, but I love the idea of the each room in the house has a kind of a meaning and a and sets the scene for the. Yeah. I for me, it's,

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: poetry has always been my inner, my my self story, the the things stories I tell myself if you know what I mean. And I think that for me, there's something about the timing of stories needing to be told. So so The silence is it for me. There are there are I have a thing about silences, and this is where we get the kind of silence speaks, is that our our experience is all things we've talked about. The stories itself are our silent stories. Our experiences are silent. Until we choose to share them. And and we are the safeguarding of ourselves. And, you know, we are our own main protector. And so we do feel so we choose which stories to tell. So but there are times when when something happens or you witness something or you experience something or your business is going through something where the silence becomes so pressured to speak that it starts to scream. You know, it reminds me of that painting of the screen. It's a silent screen. And the power that there is in those untold stories of ourselves. Is huge. And the and and what what I learned when I wrote the Winderish poem is that what came out was the untold stories of making that sacrifice. The untold stories of the generations, we heard we had the winter candle, and what we heard was the untold stories of ordinary people giving off their best for a course and the consequences of when their stories were not heard. And so that's the importance of, like, the importance of hearing silences, and silence always speaks. It's never truly silent. But we don't always hear it. Woah. Woah.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Powerful. Very powerful. I I completely relate to that. Yeah. It's often what is not said rather than what is said sometimes, isn't it? Absolutely.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Space. We're all looking around at each other. When something happens, we go back to the there's an accident that means that everyone looks. The silence is deafening. But I also think science

Joanne Lockwood: is powerful to allow science to just be and allowing everybody that time to think to reflect to pull their thoughts together because we live in a world where we wanna keep filling this vacuum of science with noise Absolutely. To allow people that that introspective time that that thought generating time rather than just pushing people to have an opinion now So take your time. Pause. Interesting. Yeah. And I think

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: we we sometimes have to give people permission to take time because there is we're in this fast world where everything has to be day before yesterday. And, you know, we're all we're still, you know, living through COVID, and we we've all been through as period of time where the world's been a lot more silent. And, you know, COVID hasn't created the issues that we've seen. But it's allowed a space where we can hear what's already there. And I think that is often what many businesses are seeing now, certainly around inclusion and diversity. You know, the things that happened over the last year have actually made a stop and see the world we're already inhabiting, whether that's the business world, our social world, you know, the the world of the TV, what have happened, we we are seeing what already exists or we're hearing those stories, this is a really, really great time to listen to the stories that are already there in your space?

Joanne Lockwood: I'm also, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the power of looking at photographs without a noise, without without any sound, just your yourself Wellbeing absorbed using your sight sense, and being really in tune with what the photograph is saying to you. Yes. Because often, we we watch tele and they they put background music or there's someone talking over it, but to truly study their image and the power and impact that makes about the story it's telling and might make writing your own story about the image, putting your own spin on what you see. Absolutely. One of

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: things that I often ask people when I when I coach them is about giving them time in the coaching just to be silent. And I asked them the question, what's your silence telling you? And that's what we get from pictures too. What's the pic not what is the picture of? But what's that picture saying to you? And that's using your inner voice. That's your own story. The speaking to you, yourself speak.

Joanne Lockwood: Must be really powerful to to have a group of people all narrating a picture with their own lived experience and perspective and seeing different emotions coming out of that that same, you know, again, event, reaction outcome. That perspective of what they're Wellbeing. And that tells a lot about their lived experience that their own story does not, maybe they're paying. And if and if you -- Maybe they're fabulous.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Absolutely. And if you go back to historically, that's what we did, didn't we? We sat down and we we we told stories, you know, whether we're watching the fire, whether we sat, you know, before the the world of fast forward and and, you know, online and, you know, we we sat and we told stories. And in those stories, just like we've bought as we do now, when someone tells you a story of yourself, you actually hear your own story, how it relates or not, how it's different to that one, how, you know, something that you'd never perhaps considered before, and that comes out of their story. And you get much more of that from personal stories than you do from a manual giving you instruction because it doesn't evoke that human emotional connection and potential that we have in our stories. It's always much more interesting to hear a story about what happened than to read about it. Well,

Joanne Lockwood: I'm gonna ask you another story about yourself. So I know you're immensely proud to be a professor, to be awarded an OBE, and also appearing on the as the 8th most influential black person on a powerless in 2018. So I know you're missing a part of that. So tell me tell me that story. Well, I can't tell you how I

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: ended up on powerless because it was nominated, you know, I was nominated kind of, what's the word anonymously. So I never knew, you know, you just got this thing. And and the same, I suppose, would there be, I think the pro the professor was different because that the culmination of years of work, of research work, of policy work, of advocacy work, and development work around health disparities, particularly. And the OBE was a nomination which I got was for services to nursing and health policy. I've worked on many health policies both in the UK and, overseas, which all have an element to focus on equal chance, as I called it. The first policy I worked on was, one was published way back in 2001, which was the 1st sexual health and HIV strategy. For England. And that was and the reason that these things are proud because the the OBE and the policy work has always been focused on diversity and inclusion in many senses and disparities. And I think about the people that I met on that work along the way. And the OB to me is a reflection of them. Who were many, many were, I mean, certainly working in the early and mid eighties around HIV at AIDS, when it was AIDS and it was before HIV. Working with communities who were verified by nature of their sexuality of just being themselves, you know, the the hundreds who died, the people who lost their job, the people at the house is firebombed, all those things. And and he, you know, here I am, you know, 20 years plus later, and that OB is reflection of their voices. And, my responsibility to ensure that their voices and their experiences were included in every line of that policy that pushed it where it needed to be pushed. And the professorship comes is if you like the professional bit that comes along with that, the writing, you know, this the book we talked about Wellbeing my first nonfiction book, but I I've written textbooks, journals, articles, etcetera, policy documents, all that kind of thing. And for me, this is for all those people who should have got an OB, who should have been given recognition for the work that they did, private, voluntary, all that, you know, the the windrush generation, my parents, you know, the ancestors. That's why I'm proud of it. That that it's not only my efforts. I'm not here. I didn't arrive here on virtue of my own efforts. But definitely for me, you know, the allies that I had along the way, those people who pushed me when I didn't want pushing who prodded me when I needed prodding, but I didn't wanna do it, and who actually just stood me up, brushed me down, and kept me going. And that's why I'm proud of it.

Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. I mean, I hear many people who have been awarded, at OB or similar that they all would tend to say, it's it's not about me. It's about I was just the, what, the visible person, this is everybody else. It's the impact we've all had in change of people's lives. Yes. I just happen to be the one that got picked to be recognized for you. And I was a little bit in ears, honest, and think about the impact that people have had on lives. And that's what the OB and similar wars are about. It's it's not about you as a person. It's about what you've the impact you've had on others, and the impact on society for in a positive way. So I think I think a amazing. -- what it's for. Absolutely. What it's for, you know, I

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: you know, it was the first person what although I didn't know it at the time, first person that I nursed, when I say nursed to death, I don't mean they're nursed, but, you know, who I know. That's always true. I nursed them. The first person that I nursed who, died as a result of complications associated with age was in 1982. And the dignity of that man, and what he taught me about the best and the worst of humanity will will stick with me. That was 1982. So, you know, when I went to the palace and I got that award and received it, you know, his was the face that I saw. And, you know, that's with me, and no one knows name, you know, obviously, but that's the person I saw.

Joanne Lockwood: That's, again, very powerful, very powerful. Did you get to go to a garden party and, get your No. Well, there is a garden

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: lot. You I tell you what you do. You get to go to Buckingham Palace, and it's really strange because you've only seen it if you're being up there by the gates. You walked through the arch, but I've never seen so much gold in my life. You know, obviously, we talk you know, I had to keep reminding myself that this wasn't kind of, you know, Focal. This was the real thing. But the, it was, Prince William who gave the OBE, on the ceremony that I was at. And we I remember walking through the halls and with a partner much children, you know, because you get you get to bring 4 guests with you. And I remember walking through the halls with them and thinking, good grief. You know, I was I was born in a, you know, back to back to Octum down terrace in the front room on the setting, you know, in the, you know, in the not the most oblivious parts of of Nottingham. And I'm thinking, how on earth am I walking through in Paris here and with with all these people. And I I think I was just thinking of the the distance traveled. I mean, both my parents had died a while ago. In fact, today is is my would be my dad's birthday. But, I think about them and the struggles they had and coming to England at the time of, you know, no no dogs, no black the Irish kind of thing. And and I'm just thinking, how on earth am I now walking through these hallowed halls? But it was it's a fabulous day, and I met some great people, and the people getting the awards were from all walks of life. People have done really good work for charities and and people who'd you know, shown great bravery around supporting somebody else and and so on and so forth. And, And the most surprising thing for me was actually real I didn't realize that the gers were who were two of who were still on either side of Petroleum, We're actually like the personal bodyguards. We're all family. I never knew that. Maybe I'm the last person to know that, but I never knew it, but I learned so much, and I remember sitting in that room thinking, wow.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Good, mate. I've I've been packing a palace once, so I got invited to a garden part back in 2009, 2010, it was the year where the heavens opened and it hailstoned. Oh, wow. We we the Bucking Palace Garden party is a is it a huge lawn, and there was probably I know, 2 or 3000 people out there. Yeah. And the heavens opened and literally everybody rushed into the back of the palace. There's a couple thousand people all huddled dripping wet in their their their hats, their dresses, their shoes, so everyone was soaked to the skin. Literally, it was like an instant heaven's open no escape. And it, yeah, it was probably the worst rain in London in in this in a decade or something. We were out in god. That's right. Oh, Darren, the hats and all the nice dresses. Oh,

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: dear. And all the hats were very in, all the shoes were very in. It was kind of yeah, the outfit you'd you'd you'd

Joanne Lockwood: you'd planned and and were proud of and there's something that's just the soggy soggy mess because it's it's the middle of suburb. It was a it was a June. I think it was a June day, but it hailstoned, really hailstoned and emptied It's incredible. It actually was featured in the in the, London evening standard on the front page. Really? Creamed garden party reigned off sort of thing. And pictures of us all running in, but it was yeah. So that was that's my Buckingham Palace experience getting wet.

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: For how sandwich is the dog keeping the sandwich? I remember going. Well, you oh, well, that's good. But the key thing is, Jira, a bit Did you use the toilets? I thought, I've got to use the toilets just to say that I've used the toilets of booking advice, which I did. I did actually. So -- Oh, no. Definitely. If anyone ever goes to book it by make sure you use the toilets, they're fabulous, but at least you can say I feed it there. Yes. We

Joanne Lockwood: we park on the mound because if you get invited to the garden party, you get parking pass so you can park nearby. And, of course, that seems like a good idea until you try and leave. Yes. You can't get out because every, all these hundreds of cars are there, that part of London is busy in the evening. And it looks like 2 hours to get out of there and across London, and we thought, you'd be better off getting a cab or or walk into the tube station. Well, that's where we got

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: a cab, and then we got a cab, because I was we weren't too far away. We were, veneers co court. So we got a cab from there. So yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Well, I mean, that's amazing. I mean, hearing your story, you know, hearing some of your background and what makes you proud, I guess, is really fantastic. I've got one last question. You describe yourself as an a queen, academic and queens, where where does that identity come from?

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: Well, an academic is is more about my my inquiring and inquisitive mind, and I am an academic. I'm, someone who wants to ask me if I'm a real professor. Yes. I'm a real professor. Yes. I'm a PhD in all the academic bits of paper that go with that. But I think that's because I seek evidence and it's it's not one kind of evidence. Sometimes the evidence, as I say, is from people's stories or their experience, but I seek evidence to help me make decisions and I try and bring a critical mind and also be always open to changing my mind based on new evidence on new information. That's the academic bit of me. The queen is a reflection of my culture, my cultural position. I have being blessed to reach my 57 years so far, lockwood. And I've reached a point where that is part of my identity. You know, we, you know, as as a black woman, as a queen, as a as a head of a family, and the holder of the culture and the heart of a family and part of the community. And that's how I see myself and that's how I hold myself, and that's how I present myself. You know, young women are young queens and old women are queens, and we you know, just as men are kings within that, but we we have that sense of responsibility and leadership through our families. And that's that's why I'm Wellbeing.

Joanne Lockwood: Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm sure for everyone is listening, there's so much there to to ponder and take inspiration from How can I let's just get in touch with you? Well, people can,

Professor Laura Serrant OBE: contact me via my website. It's lauracerrant.com. And also by email, laura@laura.com. So that's easy. I'm also on Twitter. I go in for where is my name, Laura Sarrant. I've Googled it a few times. I'm the only Laura 70 for Google, but you'll get it anyway. And I've also got, a podcast, which is called speaking for ourselves, which is really about those untold stories. So there's lots of ways people come, and I'm on LinkedIn, obviously, but everywhere I am, I'm just there as me as my name. So you should find me relatively easily. And S

Joanne Lockwood: E, double r, a n t. Yes. Brilliant. Okay. Well, that's been amazing. So a big thank you for everyone who's listened for tuning in. Please do subscribe, to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion BiTE podcast. That's b I t e s. Teddy Friends, Teddy colleagues. I've got a number of more, but could they be more excited? Don't think so, but I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll also be inspired by over the next few weeks months. And, of course, remember if you'd like to be a guest, let me know. I welcome any feedback and suggestions and on how I can improve the show. So email me at joe.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Thank you to my guest. Catch you next time. Bye.