--- title: "Diversity fatigue through the lens of a middle aged white guy" episode: 3 date: 2020-06-13 guest: "Scott McArthur" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/3-diversity-fatigue-through-the-lens-of-a-middle-aged-white-gu audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-003/audio.mp3 --- # Diversity fatigue through the lens of a middle aged white guy Joanne Lockwood is joined by Scott McArthur to explore “diversity fatigue” and what happens when inclusion conversations become polarised, overly labelled, or reduced to training and statistics that don’t shift culture. Scott shares professional and personal reflections from his background in HR and employee experience work, including why storytelling changes people more than facts, and how cognitive diversity and community can help create better dialogue. Together they discuss men’s experiences of feeling sidelined in DEI conversations, the unintended consequences of labels, and the importance of creating spaces where people can ask questions, admit uncertainty, and speak without fear. The conversation also touches on mental health and vulnerability, including the stigma men can face when expressing emotions and the links to male suicide. They discuss Scott’s work with the Whole Man Academy, the role of connection and community, and how workplace practices may need to evolve towards more individualised approaches rather than one-size-fits-all policies. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Inclusion Bites podcast: Conversations on diversity. - 06:15 — Overcoming TEDx fear, met diverse inspiring people. - 07:41 — Rediscovering analogue, sharing memories of grandfather. - 10:21 — Learning from mistakes, attention and generative people. - 14:33 — 15 years in HR, proud of progress. - 18:29 — Some people are toxic, need open dialogue. - 22:50 — Reflecting on personal identity and self-discovery. - 23:50 — Transition from work-focused to enjoying life. - 28:07 — Value cognitive diversity in friendships and associations. - 32:40 — Met interesting microbiologist, miss community gatherings from past. - 35:13 — Embracing supportive mental health, challenging gender dynamics. - 38:30 — Men's makeup encourages unity and introspection. - 42:58 — Personalized individualization in shopping is gaining traction. - 44:47 — Individualization in work and society: a shift. - 48:18 — Deliberate discrimination in hiring, grooming, attire. - 50:30 — Remote work increases mental health pressure. - 56:48 — Embrace viewpoints, dialogue, and form shared opinions. - 57:49 — Promotion of Scott Speaks on social media. ## Key takeaways - Historical managed discrimination in companies and the imperative need for cultural transformation. - The rising value of individual intellect and the challenges associated with managing gig workers and remote employees. - The critical importance of face-to-face interactions for effective learning and community building. - The power of storytelling and the move towards story-based recruitment and recognising diverse learning styles. - The complexity of diversity-related discussions and the dangers of being overly certain in one’s beliefs. - Emotional support in the workplace, focusing on belonging, value, worth, and motivation. - The significance of men engaging in conversations about emotions and breaking traditional barriers concerning vulnerability and introspection. ## FAQs ### What are some key takeaways from the podcast episode? The episode dives into the complexities of diversity and identity, emphasizing the need for open and honest conversations about privilege and inclusion. Scott MacArthur and Joanne Lockwood discuss the challenges of diversity fatigue, the impact of diversity initiatives on professional opportunities, and the importance of understanding and supporting individuals who are targets of abuse or discrimination. ### What topics are covered in the podcast episode? The episode covers a range of topics, including diversity and equality, toxic masculinity, the formation of the Whole Man Academy, the impact of labels and personal transitions, the significance of individual uniqueness, and the challenges in conducting open conversations about feelings and biases. ### What are the key messages around diversity and inclusion in the workplace? The importance of valuing individual intellect and addressing the challenges of managing gig workers and remote employees is highlighted. The need for men to engage in discussions with women and people different from them in the workplace is emphasized. ### How does the episode advocate for change and inclusion? The episode stresses the need for open and honest conversations without fear of reprisal and promoting emotional support as more valuable than financial support. It encourages reframing the use of the word "victim" and shifting the focus to the individuals perpetrating abuse or inappropriate behaviour. ### What platforms and resources are recommended by the speakers? Scott MacArthur can be found on social media platforms using the hashtag "Scott Speaks" and hosts a YouTube channel called "The Employee Experience". The Allman Academy, with the hashtag "allmanacademy", is open to everyone and is about to launch a podcast. Joanne Lockwood looks forward to hosting future inspiring guests on the In Bites podcast. ### How does the episode tackle the issue of polarisation in society? The conversation emphasises the need to expand perspectives and social circles to foster understanding and reduce polarisation in society. It discusses the impact of online platforms in perpetuating hate and forcing people to disengage, highlighting a platform called Shaper. These FAQs encapsulate the key themes and messages from the podcast episode, providing a synopsis of the insightful and thought-provoking discussion on diversity, identity, and conversations for change. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am the host of the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a place for everyone to thrive in. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify and all of the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode three with the title of Diversity fatigue through the lens of a middle aged white guy. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Scott MacArthur, no less. And I first met Scott at a Professional Speaking Association conference in 2018, and we hit it off straight away. Scott is a mentor, a speaker, a writer, and, as he says, has worked with musical producers as a rock musical producer, a TEDx speaker, a business consultant, an HR director, a zoo ambassador, research scientist. And today, Scott focuses his writing and keynote speeches on the employee experience and the workplace of the future. This is all through his lens experiences of science and technology. He has a particular interest in emergent technologies and cognitive diversity. Scott has worked in over 300 companies worldwide wow. Including PwC atos, Superdry, Willis Deloitte, Specsavers, Capgemini and the Chinese Olympic Authority. I bet they've got problems at the moment. So I asked Scott to describe his superpower and he said, I know how to read, so hello, Scott. How are you? Hi, Jo. Nice to speak to you. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. We met a year and a bit ago at that PSA conference in where was it? Coventry way, wasn't it? Coventry, yes. That was Scott MacArthur: an interesting experience in itself, wasn't it? Yeah, we kind of Joanne Lockwood: gravitated, kind of kindred like minded spirits. Yeah, Scott MacArthur: it was good. It was interesting because I think, if I remember rightly, there was quite a lot of people knew each other, and you and I didn't really know many people there. That's why we gravitated. But it was a good force of gravity. I'll never forget that. It was a good introduction. It was, yeah. Joanne Lockwood: It's quite daunting when you go to these events for the first time on your own. Yes. And everybody seems to know each other, don't they? I think we looked after each other well. I Scott MacArthur: think we did. And I mean, actually, if I'm absolutely honest, despite the fact I'm a public speaker these days, I feel quite uncomfortable in social environments like that. For example, I dread dinner parties and I can't stand formal networking events. I think I can empathise with people who struggle with it, kind of to. Collect sort of self professed introvert. Is that how you describe yourself Joanne Lockwood: or. Is it just I don't think I'm an introvert. Scott MacArthur: I've done all the tests and you know that I'm not a great believer in the science is very poor behind most of these tests, but I guess I'm maybe an introverted extrovert. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I like my own company. I really like my own company. And I think it's partly why my superpower is reading books, because I love being in the company of Tolstoy or, you know, and I can do that by opening a book. And I can be quite difficult to get to know as well, because I put up this shield quite often that's not always particularly welcoming. So, yeah, I'm introverted extrovert. I'm extroverted introvert. I don't really know Joanne Lockwood: ambivert, I think is the kind of yeah, I've read. About that as well, but maybe I don't know. Scott MacArthur: But certainly I don't feel comfortable in social environments and this is easy because I know you and I could talk to you all day, but certainly in these environments I feel quite uncomfortable. But the PSA, the Professional Speakers Association, does get easier, doesn't it, once you get into it and you crack the veneer of you get to know these think. Because as Joanne Lockwood: speakers, we're all opinionated, we all want to sell our ideas, we all have a certain stagecraft and presence about us. That's probably why it's daunting, I think. Once you realise that you are the same ilk, if you like, and then people start finding us daunting now, don't they? And it's kind of oh, they do. I think it's just a case of breaking that ice and just jumping in. I think both feet first isn't mean. There's a Scottish saying, I don't know Scott MacArthur: how well it translates, but it's we're all Jock Thompson's Bayams. And what that basically says is we're all the know, we're all from the same place, but sometimes you have to rediscover that you're just the same as everybody else. And in that environment, it can be quite difficult. I noticed you've done a couple Joanne Lockwood: of ten X's over your life. I watched a few on the YouTube the other day and if anyone's listening in, do look up Scott MacArthur's couple of TEDx on YouTube. If you tell us the titles and just tell us what that experience is like. Well, I've done two. Scott MacArthur: One was one of the biggest ones in Europe, which was TEDx Warwick. There was a couple of thousand people there. That was quite a moment for me. I call it a threshold moment. You have these experiences in your life that suddenly you go, Whoa. And you see things differently. So at that TEDx, I spoke about why facts don't change people and it's all about how important storytelling is and how important cognitive bias is, et cetera. And I was coming at that from my scientific and psychological training and past. But I'll tell you what the best that was, it wasn't the TEDx. I mean, that was daunting. I'd done lots of speaking at that point, but having 2000 people in front of you and a red dot, it was quite scary. But it was the meal afterwards that was actually the threshold moment because they took us out to a really nice hotel to have dinner and I'm sat there with I'll just give you a few. There was a guy who's become a dear friend who's one of the UK's leading AI experts. There was a guy who was a prison guard from California. There was a professor from Bristol who's one of the world's leading authorities on Nanotechnology. She's an incredible creature. There was a woman there who was an opera singer, who was one of the she was lead soprano in the Covent Garden Opera Company. Unbelievably different people. And we were all sitting there giving each other feedback and it was just like it was incredible. You wouldn't, on the face of it, think that an opera singer could tell somebody from a scientific background about how to improve his talk, but she really could. So that was a threshold moment. The second one I did was TEDx Telford, which is a much smaller 100 people, much, much smaller experience. But the interview set up was terrific. And at that one I did something that I never thought I would do. I spoke about my relationship with my grandfather who was very dear to me and the talk was called who is paying for Your attention? And it was all about how the analogue technologies, which is the future. I mean, analogue is the next big thing. Digital is coming to the end of its time and analogue is going to be next. And I was basically going back to the future. I was explaining to them why a letter I'd had from my grandfather and I've got a box of them that are foot deep and I call it my grandfather's foot, which always cocks people's attention. But I could smell his aftershave, I could feel his writing and where he changed his mind and there was all these people crying in the audience. It was wonderful. So that one was more I guess it was slightly more about myself. It was about my own story and telling it for the first time publicly, which was something I do as a speaker a lot. But that was a really intimate one. I was in tears. I came out off the stage and I was crying. You can't see that in the video. But I was I was crying. And so it was a complete two different experiences. But I'll tell you what and I know some people criticise TEDx and say there's too many of them now and you don't get paid to do it. That's a load of nonsense. I absolutely love it and I cannot wait to do the next one. It's a privilege to have the opportunity to stand up there and meet these incredible people. I mean, the one at Telford, funny enough, there was a diversity expert, there was a marketing guru, there was a guy who is a design expert, there was a chap who was a global warming expert. Joanne Lockwood: We've lost Scott. Hold on, something just happened. We've got a global warming expert and. An incredible Scott MacArthur: array of different types of people. So it was a privilege, and it is a privilege to be associated with it. So bring on the next one. Yeah, I've not done one yet. Joanne Lockwood: I have applied once. I didn't get accepted. I don't think I found my story. I need to find something unique, something I've got a passion about, and crystallise it as a one off. Whereas I think before, the mistake I made was I tried to just tell a general, sort of like, doesn't work. It's not repurposing an existing keynote. This is developing something specific. Scott MacArthur: And I think the other thing is the mistake I made well, not a mistake, it was a learning thing. The first one. Well, they both get good titles. Why facts don't change. People are you paying attention? Or who is paying for your attention? They're both easy to remember, they're both easy to say. And people, they are what I call generative. You immediately think, what's he going to be talking about? And I think that helps. So if you go in there, and some people do, and I don't think you should, but you go in there and you're selling a book or you're selling a product, I don't think that works. You just have to be yourself and come up with something from your experience that really captures people. Actually, I'll tell you what you can speak about. I remember you telling me this. You said to me, and this is quite personal, so you might want to edit this out, Jo, but you said to me, one of my stories is about how I turned my wife into a lesbian. Yes. That would get 100,000 bites in a second on a TEDx. It would, because what's that about? It's got, obviously, sex, it's got all sorts of funny. And it's that sort of title that works as a TEDx. One of my mentees just now, she's the chief executive at Twycross Zoo and I'm zoo ambassador there, and she's just done one, and it was called How To Be More Bonobo. And it's rocketed it's over 40,000 hits. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Because it's just this unusual title and folk go, who's that about? Scott MacArthur: There's an art to it, and I'm not saying I'm particularly good at it, but there's an art to it, and I think it is about having one simple thing that you talk about for 15 minutes. Yeah, no, Joanne Lockwood: I don't half forgotten about that as a talk title. Scott MacArthur: I've still got it in me. I've still got it in me and maybe that's Joanne Lockwood: the one I expand and go for. I'm not going to edit this out. I mean, for the benefit of people who are curious. It's about how I took part. My wife and I took part in a Channel Four documentary which documented my gender transition. So we went from what people would label us as a heterosexual couple into a same gender couple. So on national TV, she kind of became a lesbian. And that's kind of the basis of the talk. But I would go into a lot more about how we like to label people, how we feel more comfortable, and we put people in boxes, which is probably the basis of that talk, that people want to assume that those are our labels. And actually, we're not sure what our labels are. In fact, we don't bother with labels in a marriage. That's how we would describe ourselves. Yes. Of two people. That's probably a good point. What I need to do is I probably need to dig out some applications and go on a hunt for a TEDx opportunity somewhere. Yeah, good point. Scott MacArthur: It's a great experience. I titled this Joanne Lockwood: when we talked about diversity fatigues with a lens of a middle aged white guy. And the reason I suggest this is we hear this expression, white male panellist tail banded around. For me, it's a horrible expression. It's discriminatory, it's insulting and doesn't have any place in my world. But also, I am aware there is diversity fatigue. We're always quoting McKinsey, we're always quoting these stats. We're throwing millions and millions globally on unconscious bias training. But I think we both know it's not working. We're not causing a shift change in culture overnight, or even at all. I think the latest stats on gender pay gap, we're looking at 2080 before we get even gender parity, almost. We're making it worse before we get there. So I'm also conscious that I speak to many men and they're starting to feel marginalised. They're not being involved in the conversation. So how do you feel as a man, as a white guy in that space, talking about diversity and cognitive diversity? Scott MacArthur: Well, there's two parts to that. The professional part, which I spent 15 years working in the HR world. I was an HR director, I worked in British gas, I worked in Scottish and Newcastle, quite male environments, but I worked in what they used to call equal opportunities for 15 years. And I professionally feel excited, actually, about what's happening, because what you've currently got, and it's a bit like politics at the moment, there are interim moments. Remember I said that phrase threshold moments before? I take great pride in being involved in the laying, the foundation that's come to today. I think it has moved. If you'd gone to a gas engineer in the back of a van in the 1980s when I was a British gas, they would have laughed at you. And I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about me talking about equal opportunities. They would just laugh at you. What are you talking about little girls? But they've got no role in this. Blah, blah, blah. And now we're at a point where, yeah, it's everywhere. And for me, it's an interim step because it shouldn't be like this. It shouldn't be everywhere. It should be like electricity. It should just be there, but invisible. It shouldn't be something we have to talk about. That's the next phase. So professionally, it's amazing. I'm really excited about it. But personally, there are things that are getting in my Wick labelling just drives me nuts. I hate that toxic masculinity phrase. I cannot stand it because not just because it's stupid, but because we all know you, and I definitely know that if you label somebody something, they take on that label. So it's completely counterintuitive. It's crazy. But as a bloke who looks for work in the conference environment, I now have this monster that I'm competing against, and it's called diversity, and it hurts my business right now. So there's a professional side of me is quite comfortable with it, but in terms of opportunities, for me, it's had a negative impact. So I have to balance that. And, I mean, I'm obviously very happy about it in terms of the humanity side of it, but being in the interim phase is quite complex. And I think one of the reasons you and I hit off is we can have that sort of conversation. I don't know what to say. What do I say? Jo, one of your other phrases that could be another good TEDx title is, don't be a dick. You know that you've said that to me a million times. And I think that is really telling because the environment is full of people on one side being offended. They become professional at being offended. I think that's a horrible trait. And another side are just becoming more and more toxic because of the labelling. So, actually, we've got to be really careful about how we because we're all Jock Thompson's bands, we're all just people try to do our best. And I think you said in your introduction, helping people thrive. And that's ultimately where I think we're heading. We're on a journey, and I think we're getting there. I think we're making real amazing progress. Amazing progress. Yeah. There's Joanne Lockwood: some great points you've pulled up there. And I find sometimes, let's call it in the DNI space, the conversations go on. You end up these two polarised camps, the people who won't change and the people who demand change. And then there's often no room for the centrist view, where people come together, where people are able to have these, I don't know, conversations. Please help me understand this. I want to make things better. I want to make change, and I'd love you to help me type conversations, but we keep getting caught up with bad language. We throw in phobias and isms all the time. Let's be clear, there are some people who are toxic. There are people out there, it's not males, it's not white people, there are toxic people, people on both sides of the argument that won't come together and have conversations. And I understand why people have entrenched views, having been oppressed, having been brought up in an environment where they have lived experience of being discriminated against and bullied and beaten up and violent. So I understand fully why people have protection views. But I think in a corporate world, we need to start coming together in this centrist ground, having open, honest conversations without fear of reprisal. If you get it wrong, if you're coming from a position of respect, from open heart, to listen, to learn, then we should embrace people like that. And I think that's the challenge we have at the moment. But I think we still do detect some protectionists from the middle aged white guys sometimes, because often we see initiatives that favour women, that favour ethnic minorities, that favour to people of different faith. Almost the point where we're saying, well, actually, if you're the white guy on this slate for his role, you stand less change than a diversity candidate. That's Scott MacArthur: right, yeah. And I mean, that's why we formed I'm part of a group called the Whole Man Academy. The whole Man Academy, which is a group of guys. There's three of us, four of us mainly, who are looking at initially, it was to create a space for men to talk, because men aren't as good as others at speaking and getting airing their feelings, talking about how they're coping with the label of things like toxic, masculinity and tim has been really interesting. Jo, our audience is men only, right? It's absolutely and deliberately and unashamedly men only. We've had our biggest audience is women, which is really interesting. We'll come back to that. And our second biggest audience is the bisexual and gay community and the trans community, and our third community is men. So we seem to be getting this upside down response and it's really because I'm just watching it what's going on. And on the whole, I'm speaking in stereotypes, but on the whole, women are coming because they want their men to come. So they're saying, I'm going to buy John a ticket because John needs to talk to somebody about his feelings or about his biases, and we give them that environment and that's great. The bi and gay and trans community see to be, and this is terrible stereotype, I'd love to know what you think of this, but the impression we are getting is they are more in touch with our feelings, so they're coming anyway. Half of our audience, literally, in every event, is from that community. And then finally, we're getting very few heterosexual men coming into that environment that want to actually talk about how they feel. They're just not coming. So it's a fascinating as an experiment, it's fascinating. And we've had events where our last event had Rob Rinder, Judge Render from the television, that chap, he spoke, charlie King, who's from TOWIE, came along. I was speaking, we had some others and we attracted 25 people, whereas if I do a talk in London, over 100 people turn up if I'm doing an open thing in a pub. So I get more than the whole man academy. I think it's the label, it's the man bit. We're not giving up because I think it's a really worthwhile and an important piece, particularly given, if you look at the mental health part of it, so many young men killing themselves that we need to do something about it, we need to help. But it's a very interesting social experiment, Jo, you think of that and it's partly in reaction to everything's about not me, and I think that's fair, that's a good natural human reaction. I'm not sorry for that, not in the slightest, no. Joanne Lockwood: Speaking from my own lens, my own perspective, and my own lived experience. What you're saying about people who may be LGBT I certainly went through a phase in my life where I had to think about me, who I was, my identity, relationships I have with other people, some of the things in my life that I liked disliked, places I want to move from and to. When I consider my own gender transition. I had to think about collateral damage, who I was going to hurt. Was it worth it? Who am I? All this kind of stuff is going on my head. So I probably did a lot of self reflection, self analysis about my own sense of self and identity. And I think many people who go through whatever transition that is in their life, whether they've had an illness, an incapacity, or they've had a major death in their family or close friends, we all start to then think about our own mortality and humanity, don't we, at that point? Yeah. And I think it's quite probably a true observation that in my previous life, I didn't do that. I was so focused on being the head of the family, earning income, delivering my job, hunter killer protectionist type role, showing no weakness and being there a 100% 24 x seven to make sure I was delivering what I could at work, living what I could for the family. And then I realised that there was no fulfilment in that, it was just an empty life. I wasn't living to live, I was living to work, and I was working to live. As a result of my change, I rebalanced my entire life that actually, I want to live my life, I want to live my life, I want to enjoy my downtime and I want to enjoy what I do. And I was thinking about I was out shopping in the local tesco's at the weekend with my wife and I remember we filled our trolley up and we got such a cashier and I remember there's been times in my life where I dreaded having to pay the bill, thinking, Will this card work? Have I got enough money? Can we pay the rent? Can we pay the mortgage? Can we do this? And I kept all that in my head without sharing with my family. So I had all this pressure. I had cash issues with the business. I couldn't draw my monthly allowance that month because the business hadn't generated enough profit. I was paying the staff, I was doing credit control almost aggressively to get money in from clients, to pay people, to pay that, to pay that. Scott MacArthur: And then there's only a little bit. Left for me, sort of thing. So I Joanne Lockwood: remember sort of 20 years of my life running a business, literally worrying about everybody. I never allowed myself to open up and say, well, how about me? I feel I can't cope anymore. I really am struggling. Yes. And I've certainly learned over the last three or four years a different way of being, which the gender transition has been a catalyst and a realisation. And I'm not saying it's cause and effect, but this is obviously in my head a long time. But it has I think it's interesting you note that your target audience is your minority group. Yeah, exactly. Scott MacArthur: Fascinating. You've reminded me that one of the phrases that your audience might not have heard before is this phrase, cognitive diversity. And I think what you've just said, it really quite didactic there, because it reminded me of how I felt and how I grew up in an ex mining town in the roughest part of Scotland that you can imagine. Very male dominant, classic man getting the pay, going to the pub and the wife having to come down and pull him out the pub to get money to feed the kids. That environment. And I never met a person who was outwardly gay until I was in my never met a person of colour until I was probably 19. It was all that environment. And to expect anyone to come out of that environment, male, female, not to be impacted by it is a completely ridiculous thing to expect. And I have been unfair on, like my father, for example, who, on the face of it, is a homophobic racist. However, he's on his journey, I'm on my journey, we have different journeys. He's never met anyone. He's never had the experience to question where he was brought up. And it's why I often say to people, it's a bit trite, forgive me, but seek first to understand before being understood. You've got to learn to ask questions and not make judgments, because, Jo, you've got cognitive biases just as much as I have, as you know, and it's difficult. And that's why I like you, because you and I have these debates where we'll probably fall out because we're like, that doesn't make any sense. But that's exactly how it should be. You should be able to have this different perspective. And again, one of the things I really value about our friendship is that it's cognitively diverse. We are not the same and we shouldn't be the same. And it means and this is why, again, in many ways, I quite like the Professional Speaking Association. Because, again, you can be sitting there, and you can be talking to someone who's an expert at doing training courses on cruise ships, and then you can be speaking to somebody who's an expert at speaking about rape, and then you can be speaking to somebody who's an expert on LinkedIn. And you have these cognitively diverse perspectives. And what that does, if you're willing to see it, what that does is it holds a mirror up to you and goes, do you know what, Jo? Or do you know what, Scott? I don't agree with you. I see it differently. And that's where the magic is. I mean, David White, one of my favourite poets, he says in one of his most beautiful poems, he says, Start close in. Right, start close in. And what he means is, you've got to start with yourself. And the only way you can well, sorry, there's multiple ways, but one of the main ways you can do it is by meeting people who are different to you, because they look at you and they go, you're weird, or I don't agree with you. And that's like, oh, no one's ever said that to me before. And as long as you've got that soft front thing, you can actually learn about yourself from a stranger. And that's terrific. Terrific. But most folk don't see it. No, that's one of the things I try and Joanne Lockwood: talk about when I'm consulting or training or running workshops, is about the expression go and drink in someone else's pub. If you keep drinking your own pub, you meet the same people. Exactly. Go to a stranger's pub, get involved with conversations, meet new people, expand your perspective, be likeable, be approachable, be open, be vulnerable and just get involved with conversations with different people. And I often encourage people to look at their circle of friendships, look at the people they know in their life and without make it sound tokenistic. Work out who you're not friends with, work out what people don't have in your life and then find a way of meeting people. Either join community groups, volunteer, get out there and drink in other pubs, or just meet different people in different groups. And then you expand your circle of friends. Absolutely. I think we've all got room at our table for more perspectives. Oh, yeah. As soon as we start narrowing our perspectives, we get a single view of the world. Then we have these polarised conversations where nobody can have the middle ground. It's almost like a mediaeval battle, where people are standing on the hills with their arches firing at each other. All the foot soldiers and the mental horses and their swords, and things are getting slaughtered on the battlefield, and the generals just look at each other. Hmm. That didn't work. There's twice. The more arrows and these battles are just last man standing things, aren't they, that no one wins. It's just who doesn't die? Who doesn't die? Yeah. Scott MacArthur: Crazy. That's what we are. Sometimes in these DNI Joanne Lockwood: conversations, it's the loudest voice, the biggest fists. Who's not going to die? Absolutely pummelled people into I've given up argument. I just can't take anymore. I'm out. My mental health won't take this. I'm out. And that's what the press, Twitter and all these online stuff does now. It just spreads hate from two hills with the arrows flying at each other. Yes, absolutely. Scott MacArthur: There's an app have you heard of Shaper? No, I haven't. No. It's kind of tinder without the sex, what it talks about. And I'm not saying it's a great app, it's an okay app, but it's one of these swipey things, but it swipes on interestingness, and I quite like that. I don't even know if that's a word. Okay. So, for example, you'll go on there, and it'll have people from a broadcast. So you'll have scientists, poets, engineers, gardeners, whatever, cooks, and you can meet them, you can connect with them and get to know them. It's not a mean I think you're better to get something like the PSA than you are a shafer. But if you're sitting at home now and you're wondering how to meet people, it could be a way to start. I met a very interesting microbiologist that's not a million miles from me, because I used to be in that game, but nevertheless, it's been 30 years since I've done it. So when I met her, it was really interesting. And she is an interesting person, and that's a way to meet people. But because of the way society has changed and I mean, the other thing that I think and you mentioned it, community groups, we're not good at that anymore. I'm an atheist, and I don't find the God thing helpful, but I do find church helpful, oddly, because church, if you take away the God stuff, was a great place for people to come together, to dance, to sing, to talk. And we haven't replaced that in society because the church is dying. And that is a good thing. And from my perspective sorry if you don't agree with that, but that's, from my perspective, a good thing. But we also, I think, have therefore left a gap. And there's a chap called Elaine de Boton talks about this. He talks about the school of life, and he's trying to bring in the idea of almost secular churches where we get together from different backgrounds and help each other. And I think that's a real opportunity. I mean, someone's going to do really well in that space, because I think as human beings and certainly from a biological perspective, we need to be with other people. We're not meant to be on our own. We're not these wild cats that go around polar bears who spend most of their life walk around on their own and only come together for sex. Humans are not like that. We need the socialisation. I've been to a few cities like Joanne Lockwood: that, but yeah. Scott MacArthur: So there are opportunities there. But again, we're at this threshold moment. We'll never get to the end. There's another beautiful piece of poetry that talks about we're on the pathless path. All these people talking about goals and all this stuff, and frankly, I think it's a lot of nonsense because life isn't like that. You can only really see life in hindsight. It's very difficult to see it that way. But I think part of the pathless path is we need to be better at working, being together. We used to be quite good at it, but that was within a construct that's no longer appropriate. So we need to think of a new construct and certainly not going to be going back the way it's going to be going forward, but in a different way. Do I know the answer? No, I don't. But I do think there is an opportunity there, which is kind of what the Homean Academy is about, but it's not the answer. Joanne Lockwood: I think the new focus on things like mindfulness being more introspective, providing people support to know that good enough is good enough, they are good enough. And a lot of stuff we're doing around mental health, first aid is very powerful. And I think that's what we've lost. I think what we need to do is help men embrace this, where women will naturally come together and talk about their feelings, talk about the stress of their life, talk about the man in their life, talk about all the issues with each other in a safe, friendly environment. But men always come to in my past experience, men come together looking for sort of one upmanship, establishing their place in the pecking order, not showing weakness, or they'll be the brunt of the banter. It's making sure you're not the weak person in the pack, isn't it? Scott MacArthur: Yes. To burst into tears and say, I'm really Joanne Lockwood: struggling, is not a male thing. And I know two men have committed suicide through financial pressures at work, business and family. And their problems were solved immediately after their death by everyone pulling around the surviving partner and saying, we can help you and fix this. And their businesses were rescued, everyone was paid. So these solutions are always there. You need to have a fuse in your head that says help. Scott MacArthur: Yes. And even what you've just said is interesting because in a tangential way, because if you go into the football dressing room is a classic metaphor. Right? And what's a reality. And I've heard people saying, it's awful. The language, the demeaning language, about women. The demeaning language about homosexuality and trans people is terrible. And actually, I used to agree with that, and I used to during my British gas days, I got dragged into a job where I was looking after welfare. And that's a word we used to use as much now, but we used to have welfare officers who'd run events, and I had to look after these guys. And to be quite honest with you, Jo, they were disgusting. I was like, and I'll tell you the story in the pub sometime, but there was some stuff that was really scary, but I've actually reframed that in my head now. I kind of see it as saying that's really bad is not right, because they obviously need it. There's something happening there that they need. The problem is, there's not the next step. There's not the place for them to say, I've gone to the football environment, and I get a lot of that from my mates, and I like that, and personally, I don't like it, but a lot of men clearly do. Millions of men clearly do. So just to say that's rubbish and discounted, I don't think it's right. I think we say, okay, men need that environment. Let's understand that. And I don't understand it, but let's understand it. But then there's the next level. And this is what the Homean Academy is trying to do, is to say, okay, come along to one of our events. We'll talk about football, but we'll also talk about your feelings. We'll also talk about and we're trying to be cute with it because we'll talk about things like fashion. Men never talk about fashion with guests. Last month from a company called Shakeup, which is men's makeup, right? And when we started to talk about men's makeup, one of the guys said, put your hand up if you ever use your partner's makeup, nearly every hand in the room went up, right? It was like, whoa. So a lot of this stuff is about getting us together, men, women, and get us together and just get us talking about how it feels. Please don't misunderstand me. I also have an issue with the victim culture I think we've created. I work with school kids quite often, and you can see a lot of those kids are being programmed to be victims. And I don't think that's helpful either. But it's because it's so complicated, and it's kind of why I use poetry quite a lot, because poetry cuts through a lot of this and things like, as a first step, stand close in. What does that mean? And it gets you thinking rather than telling you, this is how you've got to behave. Does that make sense? Jo? I see a Joanne Lockwood: lot of people trying to repurpose the word victim. I'm not a victim. I was the target of victim is a very personal experience. Whereas if you can reframe that and say, I was the target of abuse. I was the target of someone's inappropriate behaviour. It puts it back to the person that perpetrates it. So I think I think we should stop using victim and saying, I was the target of and yes, if you identify as a victim, that's fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but what we need to do is push it back to the people creating those scenarios in the first place. But it is if you are the target of abuse or the target of discrimination, through microaggressions, through socialisation, through all the things. And it's a very privileged statement to say, well, I don't see that man up, girl up, whatever that may be. It's a very privileged way of looking at life. And it's often incumbent on those with privilege to walk in their shoes, to understand their lived experience and to try and think about what's going on in their life and what support you can give from that perspective. Rather than don't just chuck money at something, actually, some people would rather you embrace them and gave them emotional support, not financial support. Give them attention. Scott MacArthur: Give them some attention. Belonging, value, worth, Joanne Lockwood: encouragement, praise, motivation goes a long way. And understanding what motivates people is something we do in the workplace all the time, isn't it? Absolutely. What's the future, then? What's the future for diversity initiatives? And how do we get men to have these conversations with each other and have conversations with women and have conversations with people who are not like them in the workplace? How do we get them to come together? Well, God, Scott MacArthur: there's a PhD thesis on that question. Magic bullet. Yeah. It's not going to be simple. That's right. But it's true. I think there has to be some carrot and stick. So I think legislation has to change. I think, with the world I used to live in, employment law has become far too about, far too much about quotas and not celebrating difference, but actually making more difference, which I've got, I think is just stupid looks at it the wrong way around. I think there are real nitty gritty things like maternity and how that's dealt with and how careers are dealt with, how companies respond. But I think there is actually, and maybe this is more a hope, one of the things that is belonging more and more obvious to anyone who works in any number of companies. And I've worked in over 300 companies. And you start to see trends in all sorts of companies, and you start to see how they're morphing and changing and all the rest of it. Now, I don't buy into the millennials nonsense and I don't buy into all this stuff. It's just silly. It's Joanne Lockwood: consulting labels, new packaging. We don't need it. We don't Scott MacArthur: need it at all. But what is happening? I don't know. And I'm proud that I don't know, because I really don't know. If you look at the high street now or even online, however you buy things, what are people looking for now? They're looking for things to be done for them as an individual. So it's personalization individualization. So you get your coat can with your name on it, or you get your dress done to measure in the shop with a scanner, or you get all this is happening and you think, okay, that's only being around for a long time, but it's only really getting traction now. And I've seen some of the emergent technologies in this space which is going to make it easier and easier and easier for companies to do things, bespoke products for everybody. So it used to be the driving force behind companies was something like we used to call it scalable efficiency, right? So everybody had the same uniform, the same terms and conditions, collectively bargained with trade unions or staff associations, all of that stuff that's now counter to what's happening in our lives. We're looking for individualism. We're looking for things that are for me, not for my tribe. I think that and I can't imagine a future where that isn't going to be just something that keeps going like that. It is exponential, and a lot of folks use that without really understanding what that means. Exponential means that if I take 30 steps from where I'm sitting right now, I'll be in my loo, which is just down there. Jo right. 30 steps will get me to that loo. If I take 30 exponential steps, I'm on Mars, right. Joanne Lockwood: Doubling each penny on a chessboard. That's exactly Scott MacArthur: the grain of rice, the famous story. But if that's happening in society about individualization, there is only one thing that's going to mean, and that means that at work we're going to turn around and we're going to say, I'm not accepting collective bargaining. I'm not accepting quotas. I'm not accepting the collective model. Now, I know people have, you can say my superpower reading in one of the great writers in this space, who I don't like, but was Iron Rand, who was writing this in the she was talking about individualization from the market being the ultimate supreme ground force. And I don't agree with that. But what I do agree with is where you look at it and you say, okay, what will that mean in the company? And it will just mean that if you want my skills, you're going to have to give me what I need for my life. It's why I don't believe in the work life balance thing as well, because it's a false binary. It's just nonsense. But that's another talk. But for me, it's coming, and companies are not quite there yet. And I think that will be the beginning of making this a much easier process for us all, because again, it's why I am very cautious about things like psychometric testing who say, oh, you're a yellow or a red or a pink. No, that's labelling and if you get labelling, you know that that can never be a good thing. There are 7 billion different personalities in the world and we should celebrate that. And then people say to me, well, we can't do that, too expensive. No, technology is taking us on that almost evolutionary journey where we can I mean, evolution usually takes millions of years, but not in this context. We can now do things efficiently, but at the individual level. And I think, Jo, that's our salvation because it takes away all of this. So our conversation would just be Jo and Scott having a it's. I tell you, you taught me something, right, about speaking, actually, and you said, imagine how you would feel if the MC came on the stage and said there were two types of people in the room. There was blue people and red people. And they walked in and went, Good morning, blue people and red people and I was yellow, how would I feel? Right? And you taught me to say, Good morning, everyone. Do you remember that? I don't remember even doing it right. Tiny little change. And I thought, Shit. And I didn't mean when I went up and said, hello, ladies and gentlemen, I didn't mean to not include somebody, but I never realised. Sorry. I did realise, I just never thought about it. I'd never thought about it, so I never realised. And I think that that sort of story that you tell and I tell to a lesser extent, but will help people understand that we're all Jo Thompson's Bears, we're all the same, but we're actually all unique and it's that we should be celebrating and not things like in the HR world, recruiting to match corporate values. What a pile of nonsense. But people sell that and people go, well, it's really important, it's actually killing your business, particularly in the next ten years. Joanne Lockwood: Branding, that's what it's all about here's, our visions of values. We want to use that as an excuse for cookie cuttering somebody else. Scott MacArthur: Yeah, well, let's be honest, it always was about discrimination and it was deliberate, managed discrimination. And I get know historically, if you're running an army, you need somebody that fits that mould. They need to be the know. But if you're running Martin Spencer's or you're running Barclays Bank, you don't need that. At mean, I won't tell you the company name, but I remember joining a company and just look at my CV, you can work it out. But their induction programme, they actually told you where to get your haircut, what suit you were allowed to wear, what aftershave you had to buy they actually told you what fucking umbrella you were allowed to buy, Jo, from what shop. It was the same with the girls, but they've stopped that now, which is good, but that is where we're coming from. And anyone who's naive and include you and I in this, who thinks we can change it overnight? Well, they've just been naive. It's going to take generations. But to answer your question, I've been prattling on now, but your question is such a good question. I think that change will be that will be driven by a mixture of sensible legislation, but mainly about the culture we live in, being based on individualization of products, and that will drive a demand and a requirement for companies to treat us as individuals, not as labelled groups. Some good thoughts there. Personally, I think Joanne Lockwood: we're going to see the rise of the artisan. We're going to value the intellectual ability of an individual and that fits into your individuality there. And organisations need to learn how to manage artisans and respect them and motivate them and not box them into this corporate structure. We need more neural networks of employees and people, and don't think of employees as team players in our neural network. And our artisans in the future are going to be gig workers. They can have a portfolio of careers, they're going to come together for small, discrete projects, maybe in an agile workforce, resources on demand. So again, we need to be able to value and motivate these people differently than just put them in this HR box. I also think we also have increased pressure on mental health because if a lot more people are going to work remotely, going to work in isolation, what outlet do people have for socialisation, to share ideas, to have discussions, to have disagreements and agreements? I think that's the danger of the future, where we end up just having conversations like we are now online with one on one, but we don't enrich that with a broader experience. I think that's maybe the challenge of the future is to stop people feeling isolated, because as soon as we see people like individuals, some of the tribe and team spirit disappears as well. So we all become gifted individuals and not team players. So those are definitely challenges as I see it. Scott MacArthur: Yeah. As far as the pathless path, we don't know where it's going to go. But another thing that I quite often have heated debates about is people telling me that we have to think about development in a different way. It has to be done online. No, it doesn't. There is not a platform on the planet that does it well, they do it okay. And it's only ever going to be okay because, you know, you're sitting, you and I can have this conversation here, partly because we know each other, that helps. But actually, to get the real nitty gritty with somebody, you've got to be in the same room as them. You can't replace it. There used to be a phrase and I don't like it, but it was a blended learning. You would look at things from different perspectives and of course we now know that learning styles is nonsense and all this labelling stuff is all nonsense. But getting people together is dynamite. Dynamite. And it goes right back to where you started us when you mentioned about community. Community is not online. You can help with online stuff, but the reality is, and a lot of people get a lot of good things out of the online stuff, but actually, real communities like face to face, touching. Hands, et cetera, and a blend, Joanne Lockwood: blended learning. We're not kinesthetic, audiovisual, et cetera, et cetera. We're more than. But we all appreciate diversity of learning opportunities in two different ways. Absolutely. Storytelling is a very historic human way of communicating. We draw cave paintings, we tell each other stories. The Icelandics have the sagas of Snorri to talk about their culture, how things have evolved way before we can write and communicate and transmit. The human species developed through stories, which is, I guess, where religion, a lot of religion came from through the stories. But we love our stories. We go to the cinema to see a story, we come entertainment. It's about taking us from a journey from here to here and making us feel great at the end of it, or sad or happy getting an emotion. So, yeah, humans coming together and telling stories is very powerful. I'm a great believer in that. But they don't teach us how to tell Scott MacArthur: stories. No. I was working with a group the other week, two weeks ago, young people who were all doing quite well on their corporate jobs. And I'd watched them all do presentations. There was maybe 20 of them. Not one of them told a story. Not one of them. It was all about bullet points and about leveraging the value, all that nonsense, language that you get indoctrinated with. But of course they don't teach you at school. It's crazy. The important stuff is not done at school. They don't teach you how to have relationships. They don't they don't teach you how to read a book. And I know, I think that's my superpower. They don't actually teach you how to read a book at school, and they certainly don't teach you how to tell stories. What's more important than those three things? I can't change? Yeah, you look at the recruitment Joanne Lockwood: process, we base it on a CV and we were taught how CVS, and it's all about bullet points. I achieved even short sentences. I did this and I achieved 50,000 pounds worth of saving. Whatever. Let me tell you a story about who I am. Get to know me as a person. Get to know my values, what makes me tick, what makes me happy, what makes me sad. Those are the conversations. And you go, Actually, I think you're a fantastic person. You'd be great here. We'd love you. Come and have a job. Scott MacArthur: Come and have a job. Let's figure out how we can make that work together. Joanne Lockwood: And we never have those conversations. I appreciate hiring at scale isn't very difficult for artisans, for specialists, for senior managers, for leaders. We need to have that more story based. Who are you? Tell me about yourself. Scott MacArthur: Sorry? I mean, tell me about yourself again. Creates problems for people Joanne Lockwood: with diversity, then. We're always well versed in the storytelling art, so we got to respect different learning styles, different personality types, to be able to allow everyone to succeed within a story and wellbeing, environment. There's no easy magic bullet, as we've said already. No, it's Scott MacArthur: complex. That makes it beautiful. That makes it beautiful. For me, that just makes it beautiful. Complexity is beautiful. Simplicity, it's a bit like and I won't go on about this, but one of the competencies I really don't like. Really don't like, and I know it's an indicator of someone who is going to have a problem with me, if nothing else, is people who are certain certainty is the sign of a fool or a teenager. Yeah. Certainty is just such a silly way to be. And that's why Brenny Brown nicked us from the Buddhist. But she talks about having a soft front. Strong back and a soft front and a wild heart that she added. But that's what that meant. It means that a soft front means you take in you don't have a hard front. The armour like the certainty thing. Joanne Lockwood: I agree. And it's beautiful when you think about it, Scott MacArthur: but people don't get it. They think, companies think, oh, I need somebody who's dead sure and they need to know what they're doing. That's how we got the Scottish Parliament building or the two, or what they call them, black swans. That's because people were certain about what they were doing, rather than actually open to feedback and changing what they were doing. But I won't go on, Jo, because. That Joanne Lockwood: subject, that's another hour we can have a question I like, which is strong opinions, lightly held. That means you can have a viewpoint. You do know what you stand for, but lightly held means you're able to embrace other people's and maybe adjust your own and recontextualize it, or accept other perspectives. Your soft front, strong back type. I love this content as well. Anything that says, I want to speak to somebody who has an opinion. But I'd like to think that between us, we can come up a third opinion. Bit of yours, bit of mine, and a shared one. And I think the basis of all storytelling and human direction is to come up with a third view, which is amalgamation. Scott MacArthur: Yeah. Well, I think we yak on Joanne Lockwood: now for well over an hour, and that's been fantastic. So how can our listeners and our viewers find you? So you've got hashtags and what's a good way of finding? Well, my main hashtag that I use everywhere is Scott MacArthur: slightly narcissistic, but it says Scott Speaks. And if you use that on LinkedIn or on Instagram or on YouTube, you'll find me. My YouTube is called The Employee Experience, which is full of mini documentaries and little what I call talk trailers for what Scott speaks about. Otherwise, I'm obviously on LinkedIn. But my favourite platform, and the one that I think is misunderstood, is Twitter. Because Twitter is about information. It's not about your family or your job, it's about information. And if you use it well, I think it's still a lovely platform. So at Scott, underscore MacArthur is where I can be found most of the time. And I'm very proud of how I curate my Twitter stream. And a lot of the detail there disagrees with what I say because, again, I think you should be given balance to people and don't think that all my stuff is certain because it certainly isn't fantastic. And if anyone would like to find out more about the whole man academy, Joanne Lockwood: whether you're a woman listening, a man listening, or someone who identifies as non binary or other genders, then again, contact you. Is it hashtag allman academy as well. It is. Yeah. Scott MacArthur: hashtag #AllManAcademy. And it's we have a we have a newsletter which is open to everybody. We're about to make a big announcement about a podcast. It's coming soon. We're starting recording that in the next couple of weeks. That will be a bi weekly podcast. So that's all coming in the next few weeks. Well, thank you, Scott. Joanne Lockwood: I really appreciate our time together and I really look forward to catching up with you face to face again and just carrying on this conversation. In fact, what? We should set up a webcam next time we have a pint. Scott MacArthur: That's a great idea. Yeah. Okay, let's be in each other's pubs on the webcam. That's a great idea. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you very much. And to the audience, thank you for listening. Please do subscribe to keep updated with future episodes of the In Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S bites. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. And if you would love to take part, please do let me know. I'm looking for other people to just have a chat with Jo and inspire the audience.