--- title: "Giving Yourself a Gold Star" episode: 29 date: 2021-02-25 guest: "Pam Burrows" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/29-giving-yourself-a-gold-star audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-029/audio.mp3 --- # Giving Yourself a Gold Star Joanne Lockwood is joined by wellbeing and stress-reduction specialist Pam Burrows to explore what it really means to “give yourself a gold star” — recognising your strengths, noticing small wins, and stopping the habit of beating yourself up. Pam explains how acknowledging even minor successes can lift mood and support resilience, and shares practical ideas to help people switch off from the stress “hamster wheel”, sleep better, and create healthier routines during lockdown. The conversation also covers how connection and humour can counter isolation, and why it now takes more intention to build variety and joy into repetitive days. They also discuss the workplace context: the need for organisational policies and a culture of trust so people can say they’re not okay without fear, as well as the risks of burnout when employees try to operate at 100% while juggling additional pressures such as caring and homeschooling. Pam argues for realistic expectations, supportive leadership, and building both individual toolkits and structural support so people can thrive. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Session inspired positivity over self-criticism. - 09:02 — Lockdown stress affects everyone, often unconsciously. - 11:03 — Remote work fosters authenticity and comfort in communication. - 18:19 — Acknowledge successes; switch off stress hormones. - 22:29 — Zoom calls with colleagues for fun conversations. - 28:23 — Imagination can physically affect your body's state. - 33:33 — Passionately pursuing joy through bucket foot immersion. - 41:10 — Steve Jobs' 10-minute segments inspire engaging presentations. - 43:18 — Accept, acknowledge, adapt to remain empowered. - 51:21 — Remote workers in Crown Prosecution Service risk burnout. - 57:18 — Focus on true priorities, not perceived urgency. - 59:13 — Preemptive planning reduces stress and uncertainty. - 01:04:28 — Email or YouTube Pam for more information. ## Key takeaways - Creative techniques to inject energy and personality into online meetings and presentations. - The importance of sharing personal stories from a place of healing, not distress, to maintain emotional balance. - Strategies for combating burnout by focusing on achievable tasks and realistic expectations. - Balancing live sessions with pre-recorded materials to manage energy and support effectively. - The significance of intentional and regular social interactions to combat stress and boost mental health. - Innovative ways to create a supportive organisational environment that acknowledges employee well-being. - Practical tips on leveraging personal privileges positively, enhancing both individual and collective growth. ## FAQs ### What is Pam Burrows' approach to more engaging remote interactions? Pam suggests making remote interactions fun and memorable, such as having participants put their feet in a bucket during virtual meetings. Her goal is to introduce activities that invigorate and connect people. ### Why does Pam believe passion is important in work? Pam feels fortunate to be paid for work she loves and emphasizes that passion is crucial for emotional engagement, whether in writing, speaking, or any professional activity. ### How does Pam Burrows balance emotion in storytelling? Pam advises sharing personal stories from a place of healing—'the scar, not the wound'—to effectively convey messages without appearing distressed. ### What challenges do Joanne and Pam identify in online presentations? They mention the difficulties in maintaining energy and connection, such as the energy drain and lack of feedback when participants have their cameras off. ### How has Pam adapted her presentation techniques for online formats? Pam uses a clipboard instead of a flip chart to manage her energy better during online sessions and maintain engagement. ### What advice do they offer for teachers struggling with online teaching? They recommend balancing live sessions with pre-recorded materials to manage energy and support effectively. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I've been interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. Of course, you can catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 29 with the title, giving yourself a gold star. I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Pam Burrows. Pam describes herself as someone who helps organizations manage and reduce stress, and she works with their teams to build their own well-being toolkit. When I asked Pam to describe her superpower, she said it's her ability to sparkle. Hello, Pam. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jo. Chuffed to be here. Awesome. Happy New Year. I mean, where are we now? Yeah. We'll have to say Pam Burrows: that. We're into the, we're up to the 7th now? Well, I I would say if I if I haven't seen you yet, we can say happy New Year. Yeah. Christmas Decades Away, Joanne Lockwood: terrorist acts going on in Capitol Hill in America. The world has gone crazy. I really hoped we're going to see the end of the world unprecedented, but everything still seems to be unprecedented. What's going on in the world? Who knows? Yeah. It's crazy. It's just crazy. And as I I hope that after the year of Brexit, after the year of COVID, unprecedented will be because signed in history because we're now precedent, we've done it all before, but no no no no all the customs embargos, the paperwork is there, the fact is we've now got an unprecedented unprecedented is here to stay for another year. Jo, so, Pam, tell me about your gold stars. Where do they come from? Pam Burrows: Well, they come off the Internet, actually, in a physical sense. So when I, in in the olden days when we were in person doing conferences and training courses, I would give everybody a little sparkly star sticker at the end of our session. And the idea is that, they can have gold one, or they can have a silver one if gold's not their color. And, and, basically, I tell them they can stick it where they like, and it's to remind them it's to remind them that they are a star and star stands for someone truly amazing. And then when they get all shy and go, oh, really? Then that's what the r is for. Yes. Really. Someone truly amazing. Yes. Really. And the session leading up to them getting their star sticker is basically me helping them to realize what they bring to the world, to stop undermining that and denying it and to celebrate it because, there's there's now plenty of research to show that it's not just a a bit of an Americanism of positive thinking to recognize your strengths, but actually it's it's a huge plays a huge part in our resilience and our ability to thrive, which you're all about. Well, I still Joanne Lockwood: proudly got my gold star, and I snuck it on a a name Joanne, actually. And I remember when I saw you speak, and do your sort of brief session you did for the PSA one evening, I remember you came along with your big inflatable mallet and you all talked about how we we all want to beat ourselves up all the time, we we see the negatives in ourselves. And I seem to remember about 3 or 4 months ago I had this incident where I was really beating myself up about something and that image of you with your mallet kept popping into my hair, my gold star, and I just thought I just gotta get over this. I gotta see the positives out of this, not all the negatives. And so that session that you did that night really inspired me and I've heard still carry that with me today. Oh, that's gorgeous. Thank you so much Pam Burrows: for sharing that. That's lovely. I think that's the thing about being a speaker and using props or a teacher or, you know, anybody using a some kind of visual. You know, if if there's something visual, something auditory, something that relates to people's emotions, then they're more likely to remember that. And I I feel very, passionate. It's a bit of an overused word. But my my focus now, especially since lockdown, is to really do lots and lots of things that stick with people. You know? So, in the past, I might have done, a whole day or or even series of days on stress reduction, but I might have done more, talking through with people what they could do. Whereas now, especially, since the the the last 10 months that we've just had, I've been saying to people, right, let's do that now. Let's do this stress reduction breathing technique or visualization or a way of thinking, some kind of physical movements that change the nervous system. And and what I'm finding is it makes more of a difference because people might say, oh, yes, that's a good idea. I'll try that tomorrow. And they don't. Whereas if they actually do it in the session, feel the difference, they go, oh my god. I'm gonna do this again. And, so I'm getting, a lot more feedback now about, the things that people are doing differently. So I'm chuffed about that. And the the star, of course, is a little visual to remind people to to do whatever their thing was that they thought, yeah, I'm gonna pledge to to do that. But as you said in the in the introduction, Jo, for me, it's got to be a 2 part thing. So I could go in and teach whole organizations to individually have a great toolkit for stress reduction and well-being. But if the organization itself structurally is, you know, putting too much pressure on people, not supporting them well enough, having unreasonable demands, you know, all of these things, then, really I'm just teaching people how to be tolerant of, an unsafe situation. So I like to I like to talk to the organisation first about what they're gonna set up with policies, procedures, and strategies, which enable people to bring their whole self to work and feel safe. When I say bring to work, that might be to their own dining table, but to to bring themselves and feel safe in that environment and, that they're acknowledged, respected, cared for, and, that they're, you know, they're not given undue pressure. Joanne Lockwood: Because it everyone reacts to stress differently or situations differently, so there's no one size fits all. So somebody who is coping well in a situation is not the same as somebody who is taking on anxieties, that they're perceiving their interactions with their with their colleagues, their boss, their workload in a subtly different way, aren't they? And so we can't just say well I'm I'm I'm not stressed, I'm okay, the work's fine, but But may I ask you, somebody maybe have maybe masking and covering that, won't they? Oh, yeah. Pam Burrows: Some people are really, really good. I've got, a little book, called burnout buster. And in there, I talk about 33 red flags that you're heading for burnout, 33 things to do about it. And one of those things is when you keep saying you're fine, you know, and especially if those who love and care about you are saying, are you sure you're fine? I I don't think you're fine, and you're getting irritated by that. That that's a huge red flag because, you know, one of the one of the things that we say around burnout and overwhelm is that people who finally go pop are not weak people. They're people who've been too strong for too long. And, and that's that's really key. You know, if you're checking in with somebody, the the question needs to be, how are you really? You know? And to to do that, you've got to have, you know, if we're talking about an organization, you've got to have a culture of trust for people to be able to answer that honestly and not feel that their job's in danger or they're gonna be seen as not coping and not not competent. And so it's about how you create that culture of it's it's okay to say you're not okay, to to quote the phrase around mental illness. And, and then to to to have something in your organisation that you can do with that, you know. You can't just ask the question, have people feel safe enough to say, actually, Jo. I'm not okay. And then you're like, what do I do with that? You know? I don't actually know how to help you. So it's a it's about having a a whole strategy for that. But I think the the I'm fine stuff is a real issue. And through lockdown, well, right since last March, really, I I defy anybody to say that they haven't, at some point, been a little bit stressed for whatever reason. And it's like there's a background You know? Even if you feel like you're coping, you're eating well, you're, you know, you're cutting out the alcohol, you're getting outside, you're, you know, kind of doing all those healthy things, it's likely that there's still that sense of a background of a of a national and international crisis. And so, you know, it doesn't take much to scratch beneath the surface. There was a few people that said to me, no, the pandemic, you know, I'm just getting on with things. I'm I'm okay. And then in the conversation, they'd say something about that they were drinking more wine than usual or that they weren't sleeping very well. It just made me smile really because I was thinking, you know, the signs are there, those little red flags that actually, even if it's unconscious, you're being affected by that. So you might be saying that you're fine, but actually you do need to have some strategies in place to make sure that you are getting good sleep because that boosts the immune system and that you're focused on what you what you need to stay healthy. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. For sure. Picking up on on what you're saying there, pre COVID, when you bumped into someone and said, oh, how are you? How are you doing? That was like a a 5 second conversation. I'm alright. You're alright. We're alright. But do you find now that with COVID we're jumping on a Zoom call like this, we're having a we're doing a podcast interview, we both spend a lot of time online talking to people. I'm how are you is no longer a 5 second conversation. It's it's become a more in-depth. People are willing to be more vulnerable because they don't feel so alone in this in this storm we're all in. We're all in different boats, but we're in the big same storm. So saying, no, I'm struggling is actually allowed now, isn't it? So do you think people have got more permission to be more authentic about not being fine? I think Jo. And I think Pam Burrows: that that that's come through various Joanne. Like, you know, I I phoned the HMRC to talk about my tax, And it was a a young woman who, the dog started barking because Amazon had arrived, you know, and she had to leave the call to go and get a parcel. I'm thinking this is the HMRC, you know? And then I was talking to a customer on Zoom and, he showed me his new baby, which, I mean, that would never have happened in his office, you know, where we'd normally have had a a meeting about his, the training I was doing for his team. And so, and so then I'd seen the baby. We'd had a lot of laugh. We feel more comfortable. And and that whole thing about saying that you're not okay, you know, if people can see each other in their home environments over video, I think just that in itself has has opened up a whole thing about people being able to, be comfortable with being honest about how they are. But also that as you just said there, we're all experiencing a thing. We're experiencing it differently, but it's the same thing that we we're being affected by. And there really is something about that, you know, because mostly, if you're I don't know. Let's say you're experiencing a relationship breakdown or, health problems or, you know, maybe a parent's gone into a care home. It's your individual experience and finding somebody who wants to listen to that, and and is gonna be the person you feel comfortable talking to is, you know, it's a whole different matter. But now we've got this commonality and, yeah, it's permission to to say because so many people are really struggling, it's it's no longer you're you're an usual person over here having an individual experience. You you're you're in this in this thing that everybody can relate to, and, and people are expecting you to say, actually, I'm not brilliant today. And and suddenly the the level of I'm fine has has changed. And I think it's all there's a lot of good things. I I work with, an organization called Harmless who work with people, with, issues around self harm and suicide. And, they're rushed off their feet. Unbelievable amount of support they're having to put in. But having said that, there are some people experiencing severe anxiety who aren't now having to do the things that that ramped up that anxiety, you know, the social situations and, and such. So, yeah. But I I do think the it's much easier to speak about how you're feeling right now, and and and that's a good thing. Joanne Lockwood: I I started analyzing my own psyche at the moment because I've detected that I've become a bit of a recluse. I don't actively seek an opportunity to go out out of the home. If I actively, if we weren't going shopping to Sainsbury's, I wouldn't go out. And I'm not doing any exercise, I'm not walking up and down the road or or taking my half an hour, not doing anything. So I'm I'm being very conscious about the fact that I'm I'm kind comfortable in my own little home bubble and we only live in a 2 bedroom flat. So it's not like we've got got a garden or any space, you know, our front door is into the common area. And I it reminded me of when I was at San Diego Zoo back in the late nineties. I I I saw this polar bear in its in its enclosure and superficially, this polar bear looked great. It it was a big area, lots of there's some rocks, some grass, a tree in there, and there was a big big, pool where you could dive in and it was it was you go into the pool and shake it. Jo I I just sort of sat and watched it, oh, this polar bear looks like it's having a great time. But after 5 minutes, I realized this polar bear was doing an identical thing in repeat. He was walking out to the tree, rubbing his bottom on it in the same place. He would take 4 paces, he would then dive into the water. He'd push off the bottom of the of the water in the same place, put the same paw up and climb out, shake, touch the tree, back and repeat. So this was like a 15, 22nd repeated cycle. And most people who went into that zoo would have just seen, ah, happy polar bear, but it's only the fact that I stood there and watched this polar bear for 10 minutes and I thought, wow. And so I'm starting to feel that polar bear syndrome now. I'm getting out of bed. I'm sitting in this chair. I'm doing my podcast. I'm doing my my training, whatever I'm doing. I'm getting up at lunchtime, putting a can of soup in the microwave, 2 slices of toast, sitting back down, eating it, starting the next Zoom call. And then we'll sit down, have tea in the evening, we'll watch 2 or 3 hours of television, bit of Netflix, whatever we do. And the same happens weekends, we get up, Netflix, binge, maybe go shopping and then Monday morning we start again. And I started thinking, I'm the polar bear. I've become this polar bear. There's no variety in my life. I'm just I'm not unhappy as a person. I've I just don't have anything more going on. And I've I think my 2021 kind of thought process is to now I've now I've identified that, what can I do? How can I how can I disrupt that? Otherwise, I'm gonna be in trouble by the end of the year if I just keep being that polar bear. And that's that's what I've gotta kinda work on now. Jo, I mean, do you have any any thoughts on that? Any advice? Well, the the very first thing Pam Burrows: that comes to mind is my mum. She's 83. We lost my dad a year ago, and, she's basically been grieving alone in isolation. You know, to start with, we could only see each other through the window. And I was doing the shopping for it after Levy set the door. And, yeah. And and she's really been struggling. And she, she started doing a little, diorama. So she put little Lego people and different things out on, on the sofa, and put what day it was. And it was to initially, it was to remind herself what day it was because it all everything became blursday, which is a phrase I learned yesterday that was quite cool. Blursday. What day is it? I have no idea. And so she she did that, and then she started photographing it and putting it up on Facebook each day. Well, it's grown into this. She's got so much stuff now. She's got all kinds of props and little little scenes. And only yesterday, she, for the first time, she's been doing it for nearly 200 days, I think, now. But the, yesterday for the first time, she put the exact same diorama, little little display out as the day before. And the phrase she put on it was Groundhog Day question mark. And so many people are like, yes. That's what it feels like. And that's what she's been struggling with that every day is the same. You get up, you go to the bathroom, you have your breakfast, you watch the same telly, but she watches morning telly and, and and that sense of repetitiveness. Now it's interesting that you say, Jo, that you're you're a happy polar bear, for the most part, but, I think sometimes the feelings of, low mood can creep up on us because we've we've not really changed that routine and and judged it up a little bit. So one of the things that we know about that background of stress is that the adrenaline and the cortisol that come with being on kind of medium alert all of the time, rising to high alert when there's some kind of news coming coming with the next next challenge is that that's that's keeping us switched on, and it stops us from, fully relaxing so that the body can do its maintenance. So what we really need is to, to find ways to completely switch off so that we switch off those stress hormones, but also to generate the good hormones that that lift our spirits and our immune system. So going back to the gold star thing, I have something called the CARE model, which is my model of well-being. And the, the a of the CARE model stands for acknowledge because what we what we know through, quite a bit of research now is the lift in spirit that you get when you start acknowledging your even little successes. You get a little burst of serotonin, the feel good hormone, which, if we don't get enough of that, there is there is, some science that says we get it through chocolate and cheese. So if you're if you're eating more chocolate and cheese than you really should or want to, if you want to eat less of that, then the alternative because the other thing we know through neuroscience is that it's much easier to do more of something than to try and do less of something. So if you say, right, I'm gonna have less chocolate today, you'll obsess about chocolate. Whereas if you say, I'm gonna have more fruit today or I'm gonna have more exercise today, then that's what you're focused on. And so when we when we start to acknowledge what's happened in the day, get a little burst of serotonin, we feel very satisfied, get to the end of the day and actually write those things down in a little notebook at the side of your bed, then you'll you'll actually fall asleep easier and, have better dreams and wake more refreshed. So fascinating stuff, just that very small habit of noticing the good stuff even if it's just, you know, I I actually put trousers on today or I didn't shout to anybody. You know? Just those little little wings that may may actually need, you know, a little bit of acknowledgment because there's there's not a huge amount to to celebrate. But the other thing is is, rather than thinking, well, I can't go to a party, I can't go to the pub, I can't meet with friends, is think, how can I get something similar? So I've done things like, I've had a weekend camping with friends, been to birthday parties, I started running online spa retreats all on Zoom. So it's all possible. You know, the camping trip, we all post well, those that could put a tent up in our gardens, had a bonfire, And, we were on Zoom for the for the most of the weekend. We did yoga together. We had a dog show. We did all kinds of things all on Zoom. And and don't underestimate the lift in your spirits when you do those things even though you're not in person with those people that you're close to. It does make a difference to have that social contact. And, and, you know, the fact that you're on video and you can make eye contact, which also gives us a little bit more chemistry for you. It gives us a burst of oxytocin, which is, sometimes known as the love drug. It gives us a little lift. So never underestimate the the power of doing those things. The the problem being, of course, if you if you're on, if you're on video calls for most of the day through work, then you think, oh, I can't do another Zoom tonight for social. But, you know, maybe don't look at the screen so much, but just still experience that social connection. It's really, really important. We we actually, as humans, we die without enough oxytocin, without that connection with another human being. So don't underestimate how much you might need those top ups. Yeah. Jo Joanne Lockwood: I I schedule Zoom calls with people not for work purposes. Well, the the the the the the professional colleagues or associates are people I know, but actually the purpose of the call really is just to have a laugh, have a chat. I mean, one of the reasons I love doing these podcasts is I get to have chats with people I haven't spoken to for a while, we get an hour together, etcetera. And I had a good chat with, a mutual friend of ours, Peter Edge, yesterday, and he wanted he wanted some help with something around, live translations and and subtitling. And, we we did a bit of that and then we spent the rest of the probably an hour and a half just having like a comedy double act, we were just talking about stuff. And at the end of it, we were laughing our heads off, we were falling around and we both said we should have recorded this, this is this is this is die metal material, we could have we could have put this out of podcast series. But it was it was such good fun. Like, at the end of it, I just felt really, really lifted. And you're so right. That's what we need. We need to make sure we keep projecting ourselves with the with the laugh, with the fun, with the with the for the face we haven't seen for a while. Does that bring that snap us out our polar bear routine, isn't it? It's just to give us something else to think about. Yeah. You're so right. Yeah. Absolutely. And you gotta do it on purpose because, of course, it Pam Burrows: used to happen by accident. You know, you'd just have a a meeting that you were going to, and you'd end up having a chat with somebody over the coffee break that would lift your spirits. You know, things would happen that so a friend would invite you out or you just pop out to dinner without, you know, without having planned it. Let's go out to a restaurant tonight. Those things would happen spontaneously, but we have to do it on purpose now. And I think that's one of the problems if people do have issues around anxiety and or depression is that you kind of spiral down, you start to close in because you don't feel like you've got the energy or, you know, people often hear people say, well, who would want to spend time with me even on Zoom when I'm so miserable? And so they close down when actually the the very thing that's that's going to help us out of that situation is making those connections and, having a bit of a laugh. But, I mean, you can you can do it without having to connect with somebody. You know, get on YouTube and don't get drawn into all the news stuff or the depressing stuff. You know, find find a comedian, find find some slapstick comedy from from the black and white era, you know, whatever it is that's that's that's gonna be good for you. Even a, you know, a soppy film that you can have a good cry, you know, a good cry releases tension and allowing that kind of, you know, the peaks and troughs of emotions that were were much more natural before before lockdown. But, yeah, Peter Edge is very funny. I could imagine you 2 being a real good double act. I would have liked to have seen that recording. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It it it was yeah. It was I I don't know if I I know if I'm betraying you as he could say, but he's he's, taking a course to be a a wedding celebrant at the moment. Yes. No. You Pam Burrows: did say that. And we were talking about we were cracking jokes around that Joanne Lockwood: and, and joked about the fact it's probably this is a bad taste joke that you should have you should have been a funeral celebrant. You've probably been far busier right now. And then we were talking about all of the sort of, like, the the irony of of that. And then we could talk about, funeral directors and and and informations, and it it it was quite black black type humor, but it was quite it wasn't at anyone's expense. It was just kinda dark humor. But, yeah, it was quite funny. We were really were a bit roaring a bit roaring away. And that just came out of him to say, oh, yeah. I'm I'm becoming a betting celebrant. Wow. But, yeah, it's it's easy it's easily done. I think if you've got someone you can relate to, just have that laugh. And I I we started doing it as a family. We do we do WhatsApp calls. We do a 5 way WhatsApp call just with my son, daughter, daughter fiance, my wife and I, so all joining in. It started on a couple of birthdays. We did it. Now we can't try and do it regularly and my mom will always FaceTime me on a Sunday morning, 11 o'clock. Sometimes I'm in bed. I haven't got out, but I think, what the heck? It doesn't matter. Sometimes I'm up and I'm eating my breakfast, but we just have an hour together just to make sure we've got that time. And I I think I'm actually seeing more of people. Although it's in the in the polar bear cage, you know, I'm still in my polar bear cage, but I'm still seeing more people having more conversations than I ever did before. Yeah. And geography is not an issue, which is which is Pam Burrows: great. We're we're me and my mom have been having some calls with our Canadian relatives, and, that's just been really special. The time time difference is a is a little bit tricky. But, my just very quickly, my my mom was adopted as adopted as a baby, and she only found birth family when she was in her late sixties. And so, through the Internet. And so the cousins that we, now have are my mum's you know, the first first time she's ever had a conversation with somebody that she's actually got a blood past with. You know? And, so those those conversations have been very, very precious. And we could have been having them for the last few years, but we're having them more regularly now because they're all locked down and nothing to do. So, they've been really, really special and, have meant a lot to my mum. So that's that's gorgeous. They did come over a few years ago and spent a couple of weeks with us, and my mom was just at her happiest. So when when they call and do a video call, it, you know, revives that those memories. And we chat about going for a picnic at Chatsworth and the lovely things that we did. Because, of course, the the other thing just just going, onto the the subject of thriving again is that when you when you imagine or remember happy times, the the brain and the body will respond as if that's happening right now. Now the bad news is that you can do that with negative things. So you start to, oh god, what's gonna happen next? And, oh, what about that awful thing that happened yesterday? The body will react as if that's happening for real right now. But, you know, the good news is, the other side of the coin is when you just start to imagine things, which is which is why the online spa that I do works. I've got a, a video. Actually, it's available just on on my YouTube channel, which is a holiday in the Maldives, And there's a video of the sea rolling into the Maldives beach with my voice over, doing doing a relaxation. So you watch the beach for a few moments, then you close your eyes, imagine yourself there, and you can actually this is the mad freaky thing about the body. You can start to generate vitamin d, by imagining the sunshine on your face. So, you know, you're not actually out there in the sunshine getting the the the vitamin d in the traditional way. So the power of being able to imagine. So we need to really notice what we're, you know, what we're driving ourselves crazy with. You know, what are you filling your head with, and how can you switch that to you know, even if you're just imagining a time when you were happy and did something lovely outside of the polar bear cage, you know, remember that time when? I think it just just reminded me actually. Did you see that film? I can't remember which zoo it was, but they because the zoo was closed down and not open to the public, they gave the penguins a wander around the zoo. It's almost you should find that video. It is so gorgeous. Yeah. So you know those things where there's like the aquarium and you can go they've made like a glass tunnel through the aquarium. So you you walk through and the fish and whatever sharks or whatever are swimming all around you. And the little penguins are walking through and we're kinda looking at all the fish. That is just the most adorable thing. And, I think they did it with other animals as well because, like, why not? You know, it's the because the animals aren't getting that interaction with the visitors. And, so, yeah, the animals went to the zoo, which is just gorgeous. It's just weird thinking out of the box, you know, do something you've never done before. But but isn't that what's Joanne Lockwood: going on at the moment? We've we've had all these years of you can't, that would never work. And suddenly all of the can'ts, all of the won't work, all of that fixed mindset, everyone's had to sort of they've been nudged out of orbit and now you have to think of something new. And some of the things that are going on, the creativity, the inspiration, and the innovation that's going on is incredible. So I'm not saying that the the ends justify the means or something, but but out of this I hope we retain a lot of the spirit. We've we've gained a lot of inspiration. Well, Pam Burrows: the one of the things that I, noticed a few years ago is that I dress for my mood. So if I if I'm feeling quite chirpy in the morning, I will wear a tutu and diamantes just even if I'm just around the house. I just kind of address to, then sometimes I'll do that to cheer myself up. So I started a little Facebook group called Dress Up to Cheer Up, and, we post photos of dressing up for taking the bins out or going to the supermarket. And, and then I started a a little Zoom weekly Zoom, on a Wednesday morning for people with Alzheimer's and their carers, but, actually, there's my mom and all her friends and lots of people just join in. And we sing. And we have the, everybody's on mute, and we have the lyrics on the screen. And, it's about 45 minutes, and we just and we have chats in between. And it's just lovely. And people are like, oh, Pam, you're such an angel putting that on for free. I'm like, no. This is social. This is fun. This is me being able to sing even though I can't sing in tune. I am having the time of my life, and I get to excuse my nonsense because somebody's joining me who's also enjoying it. So I'm allowed. And, it's just the bestest fun. So, yeah, just doing you know, there's no way I would have sat doing an online spa with my feet in a bucket of bubble bath. Well, it's not even a bucket. It's, it's a plastic drawer from a storage unit, not even a proper foot spa. There's no way and and to start with it, it was in the summer. So I was doing it in my shed. In my shed, in a tutu in diamantes with my feet in a bucket kit on Zoom telling other people how to do self massage, self reflexology, pretend you're on a Maldives beach, breathing techniques, reduce stress. Never would I have ever thought of doing that, but but neither would I have been able to take it, the step further. And I'm now getting paid to do that. And I spoke to a business adviser in the summer, and she said to me, oh, I think it's fab. If you've got individuals who want to do that with you, that's brilliant. But I don't think you're gonna be selling that into organizations. And I said, no. You're probably right. And now I am because everybody's thinking well, not everybody. So many more people are thinking, we don't have to do what we always do. You know, if we're having a team meeting or a staff conference or, or a Christmas party, you know, whatever we're doing, if everybody's at home, why not make it that everybody's got their feet in a bucket? I want a mission to get as many people with their feet in a bucket as possible. And, and and then now I'm getting paid to do exactly what I would just love to do anyway. And, yeah, I just feel really lucky about that. But as I said before, what I'm also realizing is, there's a there's a famous quote, and I can't remember who said it, but it's about, writing. And it's something like, no tears in the eyes of the writer, no tears in the eyes of the reader. And it feels like that because I've chosen something, which absolutely lights me up, makes me I could almost cry sometimes when I'm doing it because I love it so much. And so because I feel so strongly about it, of course there's, you know, I'm not a unique human being. There's gonna be other people who are gonna love to do that too. Some people don't. You know, I did a conversation with a customer yesterday who said, I don't think we'll run a spa past our our people. You know, they're they're gonna be a bit cynical about that. So can we do something a little less fluffy? And I'm like, yeah. Of course. We can do it. We can we can still do the shoulder massage and stuff. We you don't have to don't have to wear a tutu, and you don't have to have your feet in a bucket. But, yeah, just to to be able to to to find other people who enjoy what I do rather Joanne, you know, you kind of think, oh, well, we'll do something middle ground, little bit beige, it'll suit everybody. And, you know, it it wouldn't it wouldn't spark me up, So then I'm not bringing my sparkle to the to the screen. And, and it's not sparking anybody else up really either. We're just kind of going through the motions. No. Joanne Lockwood: You've you've gotta try and inject some energy and personality in into the into the well, through the black mirror and out and out the other side. That's that's the technique. And, you know, we've got some mutual friends, people like Tom Morley, who is energizing people, activating their inner rock star. And I've I've I've helped him, emcee a few of those and, and done a few of it, sort of, Zoom productions with him. And just being part of the energy, you know, you've got you've got 50, 60 people in this on this call from all over the world, from this corporate background, and they're all dancing, they're all shaking, they're all having fun. And it is. It's about bringing that energy. And I think when you said about that story about your tear in your eye in the in the right side, not the in the reader's eye, as as speakers, as trainers, we that's part of our storytelling, isn't it? We have to tell that story with that passion, with that experience. And if it's a tear in our eye, if it's a glint, if it's if it's a passion, if it's an excitement, that's how we convey through the feelings, not just through the logic, isn't it? Yeah. That's the important. Yeah. You're absolutely right. Pam Burrows: And then there's also I mean, it's it's all about balance because there's there's another phrase that's relevant for speakers, which is you should always speak from the, from the scar, not the wound. So, like, if you're if you feel like you're still bleeding about a particularly emotional issue, then that's not the time to speak about it. You need to heal the wound, and then the scar will be there. And you're talking from that place, which is and then you're much more likely to get the message across rather than people just feel sorry for you or distressed by the story or whatever. So that so there is a balance. But you're absolutely right. Without that, without the tear in the eye, you're you're just imparting information. And, you know, the people just read a book, you know, read a handout, you know, flip through flip through the PowerPoint slides that you might have produced for it. You know, it's the in the storytelling your phone out and start wandering off or Joanne Lockwood: or getting your email up and just and put yourself turn your camera off put yourself on mute and you're just you're just doing this presenteeism stuff again all over again aren't you? Just Yeah yeah yeah and people people want that Pam Burrows: that that reality. You know, the very first time I, had a tear in my eye whilst doing a presentation, I came off stage. I thought, oh my goodness. What's the person who's bud the budget holder for this conference gonna say about, you know, she's up there with a tear in her eye and, you know, like, little catch in my throat trying to say what it was I wanted to say. And, I came off stage to a queue of people wanting to talk to me to, you know, tell me that it was, you know, really touched them and that's the thing. You know, I had a tear in my eye That that connected the story connected. It was about my dad with Alzheimer's. And, and that connected with people in the audience, and and made it just very, very real what we were talking about. You know, we're we're all, you know I I love the phrase, we're all just walking each other home, which is a roomy quote. And, and it's that thing, you know, we're connecting on a human level and that's, you know, when when we first went online, there are a few of us saying, well, you don't have to be sitting down just because you're on screen, You can set it up so that you're standing up and you're due using all the energy that you I was absolutely exhausted. Yes. I was using the energy that I would normally use on stage, but normally when you're on stage, you've also got a huge room with people that you're engaging and you're calling out or they're asking question. You know, it it's a it there's a cycle of energy. But sometimes, especially when it was a webinar setup or flipping Microsoft Teams where most people have their cameras off, which drives me crazy. You're just looking into the lens. You're not you know? So so, yes, I was coming across with more energy, but a 2 hour session, and I'd have to lie down for 2 days afterwards. That's absolutely crashing. So, I'll just, I've not got one to hand, but I went from from that to sitting down, absolutely fine. I can still be very energized. And I had a flip chart with very low legs sitting here. But then I realized, well, you can still only see about an a 4 sized piece of the flip chart that can actually use. So I started using a clipboard as my flip chart because if it's near enough to the camera, it's the same size as the flip chart would be if you were set up that way. So kept it really low tech, and, managing my energy and making sure that it's interactive enough that it feels more like a cycle. You know, it's not just I'm giving you everything and then I'm, you know, empty. It's about and and that's, you know, and that's something about speakers thriving, teachers right now, teachers having to go online, so feel for teachers. Well, all school staff right now having to handle that. And and I just saw a conversation on Twitter this morning. A teacher saying, she'd done something like 40 hours live, and she said, I am broken. And another teacher saying, you know, you have to give yourself permission to use to do recordings, and you can while the kids are watching the recording, you can be supporting the kids who are struggling, you know, offline and and all of that. So we have to we have to think about how are you using your energy and how how does it become cyclical because, the when when you're just giving, you won't have anything left and people aren't as engaged in it either. So yeah. Yeah. I I remember certainly going back a Joanne Lockwood: little while, Steve Jobs, when he first when he first went back to Apple and launched the iPhone, I remember seeing an interview or hearing about his his kind of mantra for those presentations that he he only ever did things in 10 minute segments. So if you're gonna have a speaker, they speak for 10 minutes, then you go for something different like a product demo. Then you go from a product demo to a video, then you go from a video to a different presenter. So that there's always this 10 minute cycle. And so when I deliver my online training, my coaching that I do, is I again I try and bring video, I bring in interaction, breakout rooms, so I never talk myself more than for 5 or 10 minutes at a time, then interact, then show a video, then discuss that, then chat about it. So there's always something going on that is not just this talk and talk or you appear as a match box in the corner of the window and everyone's listening to you drone on. So I think we're all learning about engagement now, aren't we, and how we can a, look after our own sense of self because I was finding it a killer talking to this black mirror all the time and getting no feedback. So I said, I don't want to do that anymore. I wanna be I wanna be in the audience and I wanna be I wanna have the same kind of interactions I would if I was in the room with you. This is about me asking you questions and get you to do some of the talking as well. And it it people really respond. That that's where that's where the learning happens, isn't it? Yeah. Absolutely. Pam Burrows: Generally speaking, I do about an hour and a half, 2 hours for most sessions, occasionally, 3 hours. And and if you if you do that engagement stuff and you are it's all the different things we've just talked about. You're you're getting them engaged. You're talking about stuff that they connect to, and they're like, oh god. Yeah. They get me. And, and you've given them something of value. The time flies by. You know? People sometimes say at the end, oh, I was thinking, oh, god. 2 hours, 3 hours on Zoom. What's that gonna be like? And then they get to the end, they go, oh, is it time to finish already? Yeah. More. More. Sign. Yeah. Yeah. I want some Joanne Lockwood: more. Kiko. Kiko. Yeah. I was Sorry, Pam Burrows: Con. Jo you talk about your care model, and and when you talk about, Joanne Lockwood: awareness, it reminded me of I saw something for it must have come out for a year ago where someone talked about the CIA model, which is if you can't, you know, c for control, if you can't control something and you can't influence something, you either accept, acknowledge or adapt, so the a. And I kinda always refer that to myself, you know, I I can't directly control what's going on in the world in terms of COVID, in terms of the political, in terms of Brexit, whatever whatever the political thing is going on about, I can't control that. I don't really have an influence. Yes, I can have an opinion. I can shout about it. But fundamentally, if I if I get stuck in trying to fight it, what I'm going to do is drag myself down. So if I can move in to accept, I can move in to acknowledge, I can move in to adapt, I could work myself, I could then take control of myself and feel empowered that I I now have some responsibility about how I can how to deal with this. Whereas I think I was I get I was getting Jo stuck in I can't control. I was in this sort of tailspin of I can't I can't do anything. And you've got to back right out of that avenue and take control again by adapting yourself or how you how you see that problem. Pam Burrows: Absolutely right. And I I love the CIA thing. That's that's lovely. And, and what I'd say about that is that, some of the some of the time we get stuck in what we can't control, you know, the stuff that's going off in America right now. There's some very, very little we can do about that. So we get stuck in that news loop of something we can't control. So not only are we getting stressed about something we can do nothing about, but we're not taking control of the things we can do something about, which is, our breathing rate, getting getting out there and moving the body or, you know, clearing clearing your workspace so that you your your brain feels a little clear, you know, the things you can do. And that's, that's the, the double whammy is stop, stop getting stressed about things you can't do anything about and do start doing something about things you can do something about. And don't underestimate the little things. There's there's something quite magical about cleaning things. So whether you're sweeping or mopping or, you know, wiping down the kitchen tops, hand washing the pots instead of putting them in the dishwasher, clean the windows. There's something about that repetitive arm movement that is, it it just shifts the shifts the mood, shifts our state. So, yeah, so that's a good thing to do. When you don't know what else to do, just go clean something. Joanne Lockwood: Or cook or bake something or Yes. A lot of banana bread and Pam Burrows: sourdough went on, wouldn't it, at the start of the 1st lockdown. Yeah. Is that produce is that producing or being Joanne Lockwood: useful, having sort of productive come out of it when you clean, you can actually see the result. Yeah. You think, oh, that's a bit dusty. You just say, oh. It's when you can't be bothered that means you're kind of in that depressed state. But as soon as you notice it, oh, right, let me do that, you go back you you this you sort of the brain chemicals, you've then got satisfaction of achievement, haven't you? Yeah. You've rewarded yourself, you're going, yay, I've done something. Yes, absolutely. I think that's incredibly powerful. I I was looking on Facebook this morning and up popped a picture that I took a year ago today of my laptop and my remote speaking setup that I did a year ago. And I looked and thought, wow, was that a year ago? It's a tiny little laptop, laptop, a tiny little microphone, tiny little webcam on the corner of this desk. I thought, how could I ever have coped with that? And nowhere have I literally I I I finished reassembling my desk for 2021 the other day, and I look at it now and it's like the back shots takaalactica in front of me at the moment. So I've got screens, I've got lights, I've got stuff going on. And I just look at the 2 thinking, wow, in a year I've gone from that to that. But when I was reassembling my desk over Christmas, I had it all stripped down, I had it all in piles and bits everywhere and when I put it back together and I sat down when it's finished yesterday, I went, wow. I feel really, really good. I feel really empowered and I I'm really, really excited by the whole thing. It's like a new release of life. I suppose it's like getting a new car or or getting a new dress or something. It's just you you got that feeling of of newness, haven't you, to reinvigorate yourself. Yeah. And you just reminded me about Pam Burrows: a friend of mine who, when her children were little, she never had all their toys out available at all times. She would have a proportion because most, most kids, if, if they're lucky, have more toys than they know what to do with. So she'd keep some away, and then she'd swap them around. And even though the kids had seen those toys maybe 3 months, 6 months ago, they'd be like, this is like a new thing because I haven't seen it for ages. And, and I imagine it was a bit of a similar thing for you when, when you set everything up again. But but also realizing that, that that achievement, that movement that you've made over over 12 months and realizing it. And one one of the things that, I like to do every now and again, somebody said to me a few years ago, is look at your life through the eyes of somebody you'd love to have what you've got, and you suddenly go, link an act. Look look what I've got rather than what I haven't got or what isn't perfect. You know? And, and it's not about thinking, oh god, I'm, you know, recognizing your privilege and feeling bad about it. It's just about celebrating it and enjoying it because, you know, feeling guilty about having more than somebody else might have is no use either. And so Joanne Lockwood: so Shame and guilt aren't great emotions. It's how you can leverage it and inspire others and, and give. Yeah. That that's that's the power of privilege is where you can use it for the benefit of society. And, yeah, I'm a great believer in that. So so we're we're we're in this second lockdown. The world is is struggling with the vaccine isn't gonna come quick enough. We've all had our our Christmas hopes dashed. We were all expected to be flying off to our holiday homes by now. And, yeah, we're in the UK, so now we're thinking, well, Easter, April 5th is a date that's been banned around middle of March. And I saw something yesterday, that even talking about another potential COVID spike next winter. So it's not going to be over this year. So we've we've maybe even got another 12 to 18 months of this. So do you think people are coping better? Do you think, I mean, the schools are now closed? We've got we we know that disproportionately women who tend to be the primary parent when it comes to educating, home education still even in a gender equal relationship, there there's still a lot more pressure on women to provide the home ed, provide the home admin and the cooking and etcetera, even the most even the most progressive households. So do you think we're gonna see a backward step in terms of, female empowerment and and female growth in the workplace? Do you think we'd have to reset? And and are these anxieties that people are facing at the moment? I think the the the picture you Pam Burrows: describe is very accurate. Certainly anecdotally, you know, the women that I know who are in very high powered jobs working full time are also now homeschooling their children. And, some getting support from their partner, some not, some single parents, obviously. So I think it's a huge issue. I think it's something which workplaces need to address, but they need to, just just from this last week, I think workplaces need to be more proactive about addressing that in terms of saying to everybody, not just women, but particularly, you do not have to try and operate at the normal 100% level. Please do not do that. We're not just saying it's okay if you don't. We're saying please don't even try. I I do, quite regular work with the Crown Prosecution Service, and they have got such a massive backlog. And the people that I was talking to, who are working at home, still putting the same pressure on themselves to, try and, clear the backlog of work that they have for the courts, whilst also some of them being isolated with no support, some of them trying to homeschool kids or support elderly relatives or whatever, just all of that stuff. And actually trying to do more than they normally would because of the backlog that they're experiencing. And we need the people who are leaders to say you are not allowed to try and operate at that same level because people will just burn out. You know? And so so they'll do things like, oh, I I put on a load of washing earlier during work time. Jo I better work And when you think about it, if you were in the workplace, you'd have a natter with your friends. You'd, you know, meander over a cup of coffee or you might nip out to get something for lunch. There'd be times of the day where you weren't fully operational because that's the nature. It has to ebb and flow. You can't be full on all the time and expect yourself to operate at the same level. You know, you kinda skip lunch, work through. You're exhausted in the afternoon. You're not thinking straight. You might make mistakes. You're, you know, you're not operating well. There's such a blurring between work and home. So I think we need to be more careful with that ourselves. It goes back to what we're saying at the beginning. We need individually to have our little toolkit, but leaders and organizations need to be aware of, you know, what what else people are experiencing and the the burden that may be disproportionate to to certain people. Joanne Lockwood: Do you think people are are kind of feeling worried or vulnerable about their their jobs? Yeah. When you've got, you know, we go back at 18 months. It there was a we talked about the skills crisis. The the there was more people employed. There was it was there was a basically there was talent was in demand. Now we've got talent oversupply and a 1,000 people applying for every role whereas in the past people have to be really careful. So do you think people are kind of hyper aware that they're not indispensable anymore, are they creating this self pressure because they're feeling that, hang on a minute, if I don't if I'm not top of my game every 5 seconds, they'll they'll they'll make redundant, they'll furlough me, they'll push me out, they can't see me, they can't see what I'm doing anymore. Pam Burrows: Of those, companies completely folding and everybody losing their jobs. And, yeah, and I think that is one of the things that can can lead to overwhelm and burnout and illness because people are thinking, well, I can't slack enough because, you know, I'll be I'll be first out of the door. The trouble is with adrenaline, which is what happens when we start to get stressed about all of this stuff, is it's addictive. Doing mode, fixing. There must be something else I should be doing. You almost doing mode, fixing. There must be something else I should be doing. You almost feel guilty when you stop. And I think of it being like a hamster wheel that keeps spinning even though the the day's finished. You know? So so it's good to have some, some habits in the morning to set you up for the day and at the end of the day to switch off in order that that doesn't become a hamster wheel that that actually is on all the time. Because it it it actually is a a self fulfilling prophecy. You think, oh, there's a risk of being made redundant, therefore, I'll do x, y, zed. But actually, you're more likely to, to not be able to work. If you if you don't ease up on that pressure, you know, it's actually gonna happen, in another way perhaps through being ill and not being able to work. So, you know, people are even using their commuting time. You know, let's say you used to leave the house at 7 and start work at 8, say. They're starting work at 7. So you'd have been commuting in that time. So don't think that using that extra hour means you will be able to fulfill that to do list. 1 one of the, like, going back to the care model, the r of the care model is for reality. So you might have 10 things on your list that need doing, but only in reality, only 5 of them are possible in that one day. It's only humanly possible to do 5 in that one day. So, you know, look at what's what's humanly possible and then celebrate that at the end of the day. Because if you've got 10 things on your list and you get to the end of the day, you've only done 5, you're gonna feel downhearted. You're gonna beat yourself up. You're gonna set off those stress chemicals. You set yourself 5 and manage 5. Yay. Well done me. And I'll do the the other 5 tomorrow. So, yeah, it's about it's about how you, you probably are actually a superhero that can do you keep pushing and keep pushing and running on an empty tank. Yeah. You can, but only for a certain amount of time, and then you've got to you've got to refuel. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And I'm a great believer in the in the, the quadrant urgent important, not urgent, not important. And just focus on the urgent and important. If it's not urgent, not important, just just throw it in the bin. Just don't do it. And or delegate if it's if it's if it's not, yeah, not important, but it's urgent. But get somebody else to do it for you. I think the trick really focus on that top quadrant. Yeah. The trick is Pam Burrows: not looking at your list and going, but everything's urgent and important. You know, when you're stressed, it's like, well, I have to do that because if I don't do that, x will happen and kind of catastrophizing about what will happen if you don't do every single thing. So, yeah, having a proper think about, right, that feels urgent, but that's somebody else's urgent, you know, so maybe you could pass it back to them and say, I can't do this right now because I need to do this. And, but you need to, you need to have a reasonably clear mind, and, you know, kind of feeling a in a relaxed enough way to to think clearly about those things, to make those decisions. Otherwise, we're just constantly firefighting and don't take the time to just take a breath and go, hang on a minute. Is is that does that really Emails are a great example. An email pops in because you've seen it pop in, because it needs action and you think, right, I've gotta do that now. Really? Does it really need to be done now, or can you just take a breath and decide when you are gonna do that rather than zipping in between things and constantly being busy? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I had a double pneumonia, 7 8 years ago. And I was in I ran my own business. I had some Jo directors and partners. I had hundreds of clients with IT services, so it's all stress or or everyone's getting really tense about the whole thing. And I had double pneumonia, and I I couldn't I was I was in hospital, not quite intensive care, but I was in I was in a hospital ward for a week. And then I I could hardly breathe or I can hardly walk for about 3 or 4 weeks afterwards. And I I suddenly realized at that point that the world still move the world still turns, nobody's eyes, you know, you just those things you were worrying about just happened in a different way without me having to be involved. So now when I'm looking at my list and the things I have to do, I look at it and that's alternative. If I wasn't here tomorrow, what would happen? So I then start putting preemptive measures in place and saying, well, if I if I couldn't deliver that, what would I do instead? So I've got a I've got a PA who will handle stuff for me, I can make one I can send one text message Joanne and she will make things happen and go away or reschedule or something, so I know that I don't have that stress anymore. So I I know that I can go on my life without worrying about tomorrow. There's always a plan. So I think that's the technique people need to do is if I if I'm if I'm not playing tomorrow, what would I do? And then it's put in that plan in place. It always got its rolling plan. And that immediately just takes the stress away because you think you're you're not letting people down because you've got a plan a. That happens. That kicks in immediately. Joe's not around tomorrow. This is what we're gonna do instead. Brilliant. And then then you can focus on things in a better way and and truly work out what's urgent. And today, urgent was breathing, urgent was staying alive, urgent was was was talked to my family, urgent wasn't worrying about someone's backup or someone's system crashing. I had somebody else to worry about that. Yeah. Absolutely. We we sometimes this is Pam Burrows: one of the red flags that I talk about in the book is, one of them is thinking you're invincible, you know, and, irreplaceable. When I when I used to, I used to do a lot of time management courses years ago, and and I used to talk about the double decker bus rating, which is a bit morbid. So if you got I was gonna say the red I was gonna I talk about the red Joanne Lockwood: bus as well, so I'm not going for it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So, yeah, Pam Burrows: if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, what what would not happen as a result? And, yeah. So not having everything on your shoulders. Now for a lot of people, and you were talking earlier about women having the kind of emotional load, the admin load, the physical loads, the homeschooling, all of that, you know, sometimes there isn't, there aren't things that you can pass on to to other people. So it's really important to to recognize that there's, there's only so much of you to go around. What are, what are your kind of, contingency plans? And if you really can't pass anything on or knock it off your list entirely, then at least you need to say, well, if that's what's going out, what's coming in? How do I get what I need to be able to You have to be Joanne Lockwood: able to sort of say is this more or less so you've got a list. You say is this more or is this less? If it's less, put it at the bottom, if it's more, put it at the top and just shuffle things down. So you've got 8 hours. You've got you just you always have a window that says that that's 8 hours worth of tasks and anything at the bottom of that just gets cut off and it happens tomorrow or not. And not trying to say well I've got 10 hours of things to do in 8 hours, it's saying I've got 8 hours, That's all I can do. And it's being realistic about that. I I think that's what people try and do. They try and slot extra stuff in without thinking about where does it fit in the list and The the thing Pam Burrows: that I talk to people about with the our part of the care model is the difference between intention and reality. So the reality is you've got 8 hours. Your intention is to say yes to everybody and always be helpful and try and get things done and and done, done, done, done. And the difference, between intention and reality is just taking a breath when a request comes in or, you're tempted to, offer to help before somebody's even asked you, is to just take a breath in that moment to go, okay. What's reality? My intention is to be a good and helpful person. Okay. Let's just acknowledge that. That's true. No matter what, that's true. And in this situation, I can't help because in reality, I haven't got the time, the resources, the patience, the energy, whatever it might take to to do that. And and just, yeah, looking at the difference between intention and reality, it's really crucial. Joanne Lockwood: That's that's that's a great way of looking at it. It is. Yeah. I I I completely understand that. And the reality is that you may be you aren't the best person to deal with it because of all the other things you've got on your list. Actually, I'd love to help, but I'm not I'm not best placed. I wouldn't be able to do a good job for you. Yeah. Is is a good way of responding. Well, that person needs to try and find Pam Burrows: something themselves. You know, sometimes we support people too much and actually they need to figure out how to do that for themselves. You know, it's like if you're if you're late leaving the house and your 3 year old can't do their shoes up, you might do it for them. But if they're 18 and you're still doing that, that's a bit of a problem. They haven't learned how to do their own shoes. So with people sometimes it's, tough love, you know, that we need to say, I can't help you with that. It's it's time for you to find a way to to figure that out for yourself. Or as you say, you know, somebody else could help or I can't help now, but I could help you at another point in time. But not feeling like you've got to be an absolute martyr and say yes to everything. And because you are going to keel over at some point, and then those things won't get done at all. You know, you've got to take a break before it breaks you. Joanne Lockwood: And on that note, how can people get in touch with you? Because we talked about your your star model, your care. I'm sure that plenty of people listen to this podcast who'd love to get in touch and love to find out how you Joanne help their organization. So what's the best way of getting in contact with you? So easiest way is email me, pam@pamborrows.com. Pam Burrows: I'm in the process of having a new website, so you can go to pamborrows.com if you want to, but it's going to be much better very soon. It's not really got everything on there that that I'm currently doing. So email and and have a chat is the best thing. The other thing you can do is find me on YouTube, Pamburo's people booster, because I've got loads of stuff on YouTube that you can just do for free. Particularly, there's a playlist of switch off techniques so that you can properly unwind off the hunt hamster wheel at the end of the day and get a good night's sleep. And if, if you do go to the website, at the bottom of every page of the website, there's a sign up for my Monday motivation message. And there you'll find out about, the spas, free unpaid spas that I'm doing and just all the other things that I can do for your team or individuals. Joanne Lockwood: So. Fantastic. I'm sure we could have carried on talking for another hour or Jo. We had so much to cover there. Well, a huge thank you to the listeners, for tuning in and getting to this far and and the podcast. If you love what you've heard, please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, if you have any, tell your colleagues. I mean, you may well be a polar bear wondering when you're engaged, but do do share the love and the inspiration. Because I've got a number of other exciting guests, even more exciting. I don't know. It's it's gonna be tough to tough to compete with Pam today. I'm sure you'll be inspired anyway over the next few weeks or months. So and also maybe you would love to inspire us. If you'd like to be a guest, let me know. And if you've got any comments, feedback, suggestions, of course, I'd love to hear them. So do email me to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk So what remains for me to say is my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.