--- title: "Finding the Magic" episode: 28 date: 2021-02-19 guest: "Mark Lee" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/28-finding-the-magic audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-028/audio.mp3 --- # Finding the Magic Mark Lee, a chartered accountant and long-time member of the Magic Circle, reflects on how he spent years hiding his love of magic from clients because he feared it would undermine his professional credibility. Through stories of awkward moments and perceived stigma, he explores how small signals about who we are can shape trust, bias, and whether we feel safe to be fully seen at work. As Mark moved from accountancy practice into a career focused on speaking, writing, and mentoring, he became more open about his passion and began using magic as a tool to help audiences remember ideas and connect with him as a person. The conversation expands into inclusion more broadly, including gender and representation in magic and accountancy, the impact of stereotypes, and how visibility can filter out prejudice. Joanne and Mark also discuss identity and discrimination more directly, including Mark’s experience of being Jewish and Joanne’s experience of being transgender. Together they reflect on racism, bias, allyship, and the value of meeting people outside our usual circles to challenge assumptions and create more inclusive environments. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Didn't get job, perceived deceptive, later headhunted. - 09:23 — Performed magic tricks at neighbour's children's party. - 13:29 — Magic skills declined after focusing on business networking. - 18:14 — Britain's Got Talent showcases diverse talents successfully. - 26:59 — KPMG offers paternity leave; accounting stereotypes changing. - 31:49 — Profile photos boost tax advisers' business success. - 37:34 — Exploring diverse cultures in Jerusalem, insightful experiences. - 42:48 — Intersectionality highlights discrimination's complexity within communities. - 48:42 — Challenge societal norms around trans and disability. - 54:46 — Speaking unites diverse group across professional backgrounds. - 56:35 — Unexpected connections enrich networking and conversations. - 01:02:15 — Inspirational magician Jo, prominent on LinkedIn. ## Key takeaways - The significance of stepping out of your comfort zone at networking events to connect with a diverse range of individuals. - Using magic in professional talks to create engaging and memorable presentations. - The historical trends in magic and the importance of increasing diversity within the field. - The challenge of reconciling one's personal interests, like magic, with maintaining professional credibility. - Mark's journey in embracing his whole identity to enrich professional relationships and attract genuine clients. - The evolving inclusivity within the accountancy profession, highlighting the increasing presence of women and diverse personal branding. - The broader implications of embracing personal identity in professional settings to promote trust, relatability, and a diverse professional environment. ## FAQs ### What inspired Joanne Lockwood's interest in magic? Joanne Lockwood's interest in magic began at around age 8 or 9 when she performed magic tricks at a neighbour's children's party using "hanky panky magic" boxes. This event marked her first foray into magic. ### How did Mark Lee begin his journey into magic? Mark Lee started his magic journey at age 13 by performing for his sister and later for his cousin, who paid him 25 pence per hour for a show, eventually rounding it up to a pound. ### What role does magic play in Mark Lee's professional life now? Mark Lee incorporates magic into his professional talks to make them memorable and to illustrate key business concepts, often concluding with a card trick. This approach helps him stand out and be more memorable in his networking and business activities. ### What is Joanne Lockwood's perspective on juggling and playing the saxophone? Joanne Lockwood has expressed envy for juggling skills and a keen interest in playing the saxophone, acknowledging them as impressive talents. ### How has Mark Lee's professional focus shifted over the years? Mark Lee gradually distanced himself from focusing solely on magic, particularly at business networking events with accountants, to concentrate more on his business activities. However, he still uses magic in his talks to enhance his presentations. ### What nickname does Mark Lee use for his branding, and why? Mark Lee uses the nickname "Bookmarkly" due to the commonality of his real name and as part of a memorable marketing initiative involving bookmarks. This nickname is central to his branding on social media and his website. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people. And simply having a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 28 with the title Finding the Magic and I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Mark Lee. Mark described himself as a reformed accountant and magician. When I asked Mark to describe his superpower, he said that it is his ability to create acronyms on the fly. Or is that TCAOTF, I wonder? Hello, Mark. Hi. Jo. Hi, Jo, thanks for having Mark Lee: me. Absolute pleasure. Jo, Mark, tell me, Joanne Lockwood: finding the magic, what does that mean to you? It Mark Lee: it probably relates back to, as a teenager, my first foray into business was as a children's party entertainer. And I then continued as a as a magician at parties and functions, And it's always been my hobby, if you like. Other other teenagers, 20 somethings were going to football or rugby or sports events, and I was going to kids' parties and entertaining them using magic. And, it's always been a part of my life. I've been a member of the Magic Circle for over 20 years, and I'm now treasurer of the Magic Circle. So I get to combine my my professional experience as a chartered accountant with being a passionate magician as well. And I I look back and I realized that I hid my passion in magic from my clients over the years, although my colleagues knew about it. And I was always doing tricks in the pub or in the office, in between client work, obviously. But I kept it secret from clients because I was always concerned it might adversely impact my professional credibility. And since I left practice, after I qualified as chartered accountant, I was a tax adviser for many years. And then about 15 years ago, I decided, having been made redundant for the second time, I'd focused instead the rest of my career on doing those things. I really enjoyed speaking, writing, and mentoring. And I learned that one of the key things you need to do as an independent person, and indeed it's probably true for all of us, is to share a bit about yourself. People don't just buy you because of your technical experience. And I'm much less shy about revealing my interest in magic now. Indeed, there's invariably a trick or 2 in in my talks while I'm on stage even though my audiences are accountants. And I frequently point out that if they want to be better remembered, referred, and recommended, they need to reveal something of themselves. That doesn't mean they have to become magicians, though, but everybody should find the magic, in their own career, background, experience, passions, life, loves, family, or whatever. Joanne Lockwood: Yep. Brilliant. I mean, we talk, you know, in D&I circles about bringing your whole self to work. So you you are actively hiding an element of who you are or were, for fear of embarrassment, shame or stigma or something that you felt it would damage your professional credibility. That's really kind of interesting, and it's magic. Yeah. Mark Lee: I think I had it's also a function of a couple of bad experiences that I had. One was I turned up at an turned up at an interview in the days before the Internet. So there was no profile of me online. There was no photo of me on the CV, and I sat down, in front of the senior partner of a large firm of accountants, and he did that thing he'd been trained to do to try and put the candidate there is. So he scanned down the CV, and he looked at the interests bit. And now under interests, I put magic, member of the magic circle. And I to this day, I remember him looking up and looking at me going, I see you're a magician. I think that says a lot about you. I don't recall where the conversation went from that, but I do know I didn't get the job. And I always wondered if that was because he perceived that maybe I was good at deceiving people and that maybe that was why he shouldn't recruit me. And I think that may have had an impact as to me, keeping it, hidden for a while. And then the other experience that many, many years later, I've been headhunted, it was before I was headhunted, by BDO, Large for accountants. I worked at another sizable firm. And because I shared the magic with colleagues and friends and with journalists and I was making a bit of a name for myself in in the accounting world as a commentator. And in those days, there was a a publication, which is now only available online, accountancy age, which we used to joke was a bit like the sum of the accountancy world. No offense to the serious publication that it is these days. But the back cover always had a a taking stock page, which is a bit like sort of accountancy rate version of private eye, poking fun at, you know, stuffy old accountants. But they always had a feature on accountants who were a little bit unusual, who had an interesting hobbies. And I had featured on the back cover 2 or 3 times. And I remember one occasion, I walked into my largest client's office, the finance director, with a couple of, colleagues. And as I walked in, I could see that on the notice board behind him was pinned the latest back cover from accountancy age with a picture of me doing a magic trick circled in big red ink and an arrow pointing at it going, should we take tax advice from this guy? I went, oh my god. And I they they knew me well enough. It was a wind up. But for that split second, I had thought that I damaged not only my credibility, but risked the client, to the firm. And I think that also made me a little reluctant to share the magic too much with, with clients for for far too long looking back. Because the other thing I've learned as I've got older and wiser is most people love magic. Most people like the entertainment side of it. It's always about being entertaining. It's never about being clever or I can do stuff you can't do. It's about entertaining with magic. And most people like it, love it, and it might well have helped cement more client relationships than I would have lost. So I I think it's a huge mistake when I look back. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I'm I'm almost sat here speechless listening to that story because for it to carry that kind of stigma, but then I think the word the way you described it was magic could be your practice of being deceitful, misleading people. So I suppose it is a bit of this paradox between a trusted accountant and a magician. I mean obviously we often want our tax advisers to magic our tax away, but we want to do it in plain view. So had this one before today. Mark Lee: No? No. No. No. Sorry. Tongue very firmly in cheek. Ah, Joanne Lockwood: okay. Let's magic away my tags. I see you have your wand. I mean for those this is a podcast but Mark has actually sat there with a bookshelf behind him and on the bookshelf is a magic wand sort of strategic who plays just ready to magic people's accounts. Well well, I I I haven't been in practice for many, Mark Lee: many years, but there is often a a magic wand behind me just because it it prompts conversation. And, also, for those people who like to study bookshelves, almost all of the books on on the shelf are business related, lead generation, marketing, the sort of things that I talk to firms of accountants about from a strategic perspective or coaching and mentoring, which I do with individual accountants, particularly those running around practices. But if you look carefully, you will also see the Paul Daniels adult magic book. And, also, I've I can't remember why I put it there, but I've got the, I'm sorry I haven't a clue, anthology there as well, just to show that I'm not all about the serious and the heavyweight. Joanne Lockwood: It's it's really interesting. This has sparked a memory that I've forgotten all about. I did my first magic gig when I was about 8 or 9 years old. And my parents were very keen at the time for me not to be paid because they didn't want to make me a professional magician at ages of 8 or 9. Oh my goodness. It was my it was my I think it was 8 or 9, maybe 10. I was very young. I remember it was our next door neighbor. They had younger children and they they knew that I was I did some magic tricks. Jo I had my, was it hanky panky magic? Box? I forgot all about it until he mentioned I forgot all about it Jo that they knew I did sort of this magic, I used to get magic, these magic boxes, it was a hanky panky magic accessory, I used to have a blue one and a green one, there's a like a bigger one you Joanne get, all the little things, Jo I was quite into at the time. And they asked me if I'd be a magician at their their children's party next door, there's about 8 or 10 kids, I remember doing it practicing all these little tricks and yeah obviously fluff them up a little bit but yeah I my audience were probably 5 or 6 so it was probably easy audience. And, yeah Jo I did my my first magic gig probably the age of 8 or 9. Well, Jo idea why I didn't pursue it it just it was one of those things I did and it dropped away, went up maybe in my teenage years. Well, I I did my first gig for my Mark Lee: sister when I was about 13, and then I got a booking for a cousin's daughter, when she was gonna be 6. And the cousin asked how much I wanted to charge, and I I absolutely no idea. And so I said, remember, this was a long time ago. I said, how does 25 p an hour sound? Which I can see the smile on your face. It might not sound like much, but it's 25 p more than I'm being paid today. And then I realized, hang on. The children's party is only 2 or 3 hours. And we we agreed to round it up to a pound. So my my first professional fee was 1 pound. Still remember it. And I still have that pound here to do no. I don't. Joanne Lockwood: But I but, well, not to show your age. Back in those days, it was a paper pound, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It probably was. It was one of these big, big paper pounds. Yeah. Yeah. No. It was the 5 it was 5 or Mark Lee: something that big, and I don't remember those. Yeah. I'm only a few years old, aren't you? But you know, Joanne Lockwood: I used to work with somebody well, I worked for Coots Bank back in the mid to late 90s and I used to work with a fellow there who was, he was in a magic circle, a magician, and he would always do magic randomly as during the day. I was in IT or in computing so there's a lot of time sitting around watching stuff load or or maybe installing things Jo there's always a lot of time to kill. And I met one weekend we're doing this major upgrade and he taught me how to juggle 3, 3 balls. I I can't do probably more than 6 or 7 cycles of 3 balls, but he taught me to juggle in the in the luncheon so I know I know the theory now I've just got to practice it to make it work. But yeah. It's like all these things isn't it? Practice practice makes Mark Lee: I was gonna say practice makes perfect. Practice makes permanent. If you don't get good training or good teaching, good encouragement, then you practicing stuff just makes your habits permanent. Doesn't necessarily make make you a good performer of any kind. Yeah. I've Joanne Lockwood: always been a little bit envious of people who who can juggle because it's such a great little party trick. You can just sort of go oh, there's a fruit bowl there they're just a couple of apples, couple of oranges and before you know they've got 5 or 6 things going or anything. That's quite good. I mean that and playing the saxophone Joanne my 2 want to be able to do skills. I Mark Lee: Joanne can understand that? I I always feel a little bit alienated when people start talking about juggling as a link directly from magic because they're 2 very different skills, and I can't I can't juggle. Can't juggle. I mean play the saxophone. I mean, yeah. I mean, Joanne Lockwood: this this person was a magician, a member of magic circle, and he taught me to juggle Jo there are different things, you're right. I think it should be some coin tricks and sort of how to roll the coin on the back of your knuckles and stuff, which isn't really magic. It's just Good manipulation. Joanne practice. And dexterity. Manipulation. I I I look back and realize Mark Lee: that I pretty much stopped doing as much magic when I left practice and went out by myself. Again, yeah, when I initially started going to business networking events, again, I was cons I didn't wanna distract people talking about the magic side of my activities as distinct from my business activities. And, and as the years passed and I stopped going to generic business networking events and focused only on events with accountants, it was prop it became less important to to be doing less important to me to be doing magic, to be remembered. So the these days, it figures in my talks, often as examples of how to be better remembered, referred, and recommended, how to stand out from the crowd, from your competitors, and from the pack. And I will then often, produce a pack of cards and use use that as an analogy, for how we remember what stands out. So a different colored back card to all the others, for example. And then I will always it's a bit of a cheat. This was in the days when we could do live events. I just wouldn't I remember those days. It would it wouldn't work on, on a Zoom or online, I I don't think. I I would always say, look. It's a rule of the magics. You've heard as part of the introduction, I'm treasurer of the magic circle. And it's a rule of the magic circle, that if you're on stage, you have to perform a magic trick. Would it be okay for me to perform a trick for you? I always ask the audience's permission, and they will say yes. And that's why there will always be, you know, 1 or 2 tricks during the during the talk, not so that they will remember me as a magician, but hopefully, they remember well, they do remember it was entertaining and the the magic, they enjoyed. It it often includes a a trick at the end where I use a deck of cards to summarize many of the key points I've made. And that's also makes it a useful reminder at the end of a talk. Joanne Lockwood: Because, Matthew, it's all about the setup, isn't it? You you do something very early on. Well, I would say it's all about I would say it's Mark Lee: all about. But no. And then and then but I know. Right. But at the Joanne Lockwood: end, you then bring this thing that you've already introduced right at the beginning. So you misdirect people by the beginning and then and then produce it the end. Oh, that's that's how I Yeah. It's it's like a good good a well structured Mark Lee: talk, a well structured routine, well structured talk with a lot of similarities. And a lot of the skills I bring to speaking on stage, or even on camera have evolved from the fact that I was speaking that most difficult of audiences, from a very early relatively early age as a teenager. And, you know, if you can stand up and entertain and talk to 20, 30, 40, 50 kids or 100 on couple of occasions, then standing in front of a group of accountants is really not a challenge. Particularly, I found as, like, a older and more confident in myself as a person. Joanne Lockwood: In my in my in my naivety, I I would say the stereotype magician tends to be a white man. You know, we look at Daniels, we look at some of the big superstars, they tend to be men, and the women, dare I say, wear accessories. Oh, history. Mark Lee: Historically. They were looking good, yeah, catching a bullet in their mouth, having the knife Joanne Lockwood: thrown at their head. I mean, that's that's beyond magicians, but it's all kind of that entertainment thing. Thank thank goodness chain things Mark Lee: changed enormously. I think it's 2020, 25 years ago, the Magic Circle allowed women to join in their own right. And we have the Young Magicians Club as well. And, some wonderful female members of both the Young Magicians Club and the Magic Circle. Indeed, one of the graduates from the Young Magicians Club into the Magic Circle became our 1st female secretary of Magic Circle in her mid twenties, and she's now the first female vice president of the Magic Circle. And she's a wonderful I'm gonna say young lady. She's a, you know, a wonderful lady, wonderful performer, great person, and a great role model for other women who aspire to be in magic. And Britain's Got Talent's also been very good at it. We've had a huge number of women take part, on Britain's Got Talent. And also just in terms of diversity, just this year, one of the finalists, was a guy called Richard Essien. He's a member of the Magic Circle, also known as Magical Bones. And he told a fabulous story about how he'd been inspired by the first black magician, to, to to come across, I think, from America to the UK. And seeing seeing a great magician who also happens to be a person of color was a is a great thrill. Yeah. I'm I as you said before, I recognize that I could be seen as just another old white bloke. For for some years, not just in the the magic circle, but I'm I'm on the members of commercial board of the Institute Chartered Accountants, England and Wales, you know, me through my involvement at the Professional Speaking Association. For some years, I've recognized the importance of diversity and inclusion and have helped organizers, of events recognize that the default choice of an old white bloke is not is not is not necessarily the right route to go. And we before we started recording, we were talking about unconscious bias. And one of the reasons why that happens in my experience is because most old white blokes who are organizing things only know old white blokes and spreading their spreading their wings. So I'm delighted to have introduced women, people of color to be speakers. It means I don't get as many gigs as I might have done. But, frankly, I might just as well be losing them to a more diverse range of speakers or presenters as to younger white people. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is to make everybody more aware of the breadth of experience and ability out there, and that doesn't mean limiting ourselves to the historic approach that has always been adopted in the past. And, also, sometimes it's nice to Joanne Lockwood: have someone else entertain you and enlighten you for a change and not always be the one that's doing the performing. It's nice sometimes take a backseat and, see younger people come through. Absolutely. I, I, I can't Mark Lee: abide any unfairness or abuse of power. And I I know that I so I sense that I feel more strongly about that than many other people of my generation, in terms of rec racisms, sexism, diversity generally. And I think that is a function of something that I very rarely talk about, which is the fact that I'm white on the outside, but I'm still potentially subject to racism because I'm Jewish. And it I don't wear it on my sleeve. I don't, it rarely comes up in conversation. And I'm fortunate. I've suffered very little overt racism racism, but I still think it makes me aware of the tendency towards it and how awful it is when it happens. I sadly, I know plenty of people who have suffered direct directly, and and I'm aware that I'm fortunate to I I believe the expression expression I only heard in recent years, passing white. Yeah. Jo I I people don't assume that I would be a subject of racism unless they know my, my religion, which is an accident of birth. Birth parents of community that I might feel a part of didn't change who I am, didn't change what I do. And the the level of my involvement, commitment, and practice, which has changed enormously both up and down over the years, has no bearing on who I am, what I do, or how anybody engages with me. And and I don't see why somebody's color, race, gender, or whatever else should impact, the way that people engage with them in in the same way. It's very true. Joanne Lockwood: And I meet a lot of people who have a, call it a minority characteristic or something about them that is not typical or the majority in the world. And they are always more sensitive and more aware of the impact, as you say, of racism, sexism and the need to be inclusive. It's often the case where people have never had that experience. They don't see the need to be to be thoughtful of it. Absolutely. They're not aware. Yeah. It's their just they just are. It's not their fault. It's just they've never never had to think wake up and think about it. And Mark Lee: I'm sure that's absolutely right. I I love the statistic that, on average, the average the average human has less than 2 eyes. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. And that's because nobody's got more than 2, but there are some people with Mark Lee: only 1 or or a blind and have have none. And I'm not sure why I thought that was relevant. But I think also the other Joanne Lockwood: statistic is that, on average humans have less than one testicle. Yes. Which I also thought was quite an which I also thought was quite an interesting Mark Lee: concept. Lots of people relevant, yes. And people look Joanne Lockwood: at you and go and then they work it out and think oh yeah I get it now, yes it's kind of because every bat has 2 and half the population don't have any. So, yeah, it's, ding. Your dinner's ready. I have no idea Mark Lee: what or where that was. I think it was a l I think it was a l e x a, but I'm not gonna say the name. With a bit Joanne Lockwood: of a ping. Yeah. We could talk to alexa later. Yeah. Let's try Mark Lee: not to. Joanne Lockwood: So yeah you're not practicing accountants anymore but you obviously through your tax advice network you're working with, I presume, practicing tax advisers and accountants. Do you see that industry changing? Because when I first came across the accountancy practice, which was probably in the mid early to mid 90s where my my best friend, who ended up being my business partner and my accountant, always positioned himself as Joanne accountant with attitude, an accountant who's different, wanted to bust this myth of this stale old accountant that he wanted to come and shake it all up and and give a bit of real passion and personality into the into the into the impression. So do you see that's kind of evolving or do you still think there's a lot of I think there's there's a lot to be Mark Lee: done, but it it has evolved enormously. When I when I first qualified, the the the small firm accountants I worked with, I think the women almost exclusively were secretaries or receptionists. Then, certainly, there would have been a tiny minority of, of women trainees. I've just remembered there there was at least one, because we've just time with time of recording, we just passed the anniversary, 40th anniversary of losing John Lennon. And I remember Roger Scott, the Capitol Radio DJ, and we must have had this playing in the background. We were doing the audit of a a British Legion club, and I was there as a manager with a a a younger lady who was a trainee. I remember Roger Scott saying and, of course, we always we always remember where we were when we heard the sad news of John Lennon's death just like we did just like we did when sorry. I have no idea where the thing is coming from. I'd stop it if I could. That works. Yeah. Just like we did when we heard that, Elvis had died or JFK. I don't think I would have remembered if if Roger Scott hadn't hadn't announced that. But there was a young lady with me, so we must have had trainees there. And I was I then worked at a a very large firm accountants, then called Touche Ross. It's now Deloitte. And I remember the first female partner there was pregnant, and I believe she was out of the office at the time of the birth for less than a month in terms of both before and after. Possibly because at that time, she was concerned about the impact on her career if she took what we now recognize to be quite reasonable maternity leave. And a huge change my son works for KPMG, and not only did they give maternity leave, they give paternity leave there, amazingly generous, things that just wouldn't have happened 30, 40 years ago. And I look at the people I'm connected with on LinkedIn, you know, the 211, 12000 connections I have there, many of them are in fact, the majority of them are probably accountants. There's a huge number of women and many who who are accountants or bookkeepers or tax advisers. Many of them making a point, not only of the fact that obviously they are a woman, but also that they've got attitude and well, clearly, they are different to the the stereotype. The the sad thing is that stereotype, goes back as far not just of the Monty Python classic sketch about the accountant who wanted to be a lion tamer but wasn't allowed to be because he was too boring. There was also a classic 2 Ronnies sketch, with mister Simpkins from accounts whose kids were known as Simpkins and Simpkins, and that also really took the mick out of accountants. But even back in those days, that stereotype, which has persisted in many people's minds, it's not necessarily about the accountants all being boring. It's the fact that a lot of people consider the accounting and bookkeeping work to be boring. Therefore, if somebody likes or chooses to do that work, by definition, they must be boring. I don't buy that. I don't accept that, and I encourage accountants to stand out from the crowd and show that that they're not boring either. Because people, you know, people want their accounts and books and and tax work done, But, generally, they want it done by somebody they can relate to and who relates to them and will help them, support them, encourage them, and advise them beyond just doing the compliance paperwork. And too many people Yeah. I completely Joanne Lockwood: agree. I mean, my As a small business person myself, I've run small businesses for 25, 30 odd years. So an accountant to me is more than just that compliance asset, yeah it's just the bookkeeping, the fact terms, company formations, statutory accounts, all that kind of stuff, it's just a minority. It's the it's that watching eye, that consultancy element that accountancy bring and how they understand your business or have an appreciation of other businesses and then can use that expertise to come to yours and advise you and signpost you or mentor you. And I think that's the power, certainly from a small business perspective. Of course, it should be. But many small businesses don't Mark Lee: appreciate they can get all that from an accountant. If they've had a bad accountant in the past, they may move to another accountant who operates in much the same way, but it's cheaper. Joanne that they don't know what more they could be getting. So going back to the the title you chose for this podcast, I'd encourage listeners to look at finding the magic in their accountants, and getting more from their accountants. But you you have to pay for that. You don't if you pay monk what is it? You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, we're we're professional speakers. We're professional trainers and podcasters and and, advisers ourselves, so we appreciate our own brand value on what we do. So of course we we we yeah, we're the converted so we understand about value and what it can offer. As you're talking now, I listened about is there still a perception amongst clients that a man is a better accountant, maybe not, maybe women are becoming more successful, they're holding high up more senior positions in accountancy, but is there still this incumbent male crust, if you like, in the clients that where that women are taking this seriously? Have you still got to try and break through that? I've I've no idea, Mark Lee: but I I would say, a, my accountant is is a woman. And the I think these days, people recognize they need to choose somebody to whom they can relate. And I've I've often suggested to some of the female accountants and bookkeepers I know because you and I recognize the benefits of having a niche or clarity of focus as regards to target audience. And, yeah, it doesn't make any difference to an accountant what, you know, what gender their their client is. But many female entrepreneurs, business owners may relate better to a female accountant than they will to a male accountant. And thank goodness there's a greater there's greater choice for them now than there was before. And it it shouldn't you know, the gender shouldn't gender of the accountant obviously shouldn't matter. It's irrelevant. But, frankly, in the same way, you you mentioned my tax advice network, which is an online website, lead generation website for accountants and and tax advisers. And I always point out to the members who join, put a photo up there because you and I, speaking to the tax advisers, you and I know it shouldn't matter what you look like. The quality of your advice is what what matters. But I've I've had this this network online for 13 years, and there is no doubt that the advisers in the network who put up a decent profile photo of themselves with a nice welcoming smile get more business than those who put no photo up or just put a logo there or a very poorly thought thought through profile photo. And, of course, exactly the same is true on LinkedIn and and social media as well and on personal websites. And and, in fact, given the the nature of this this podcast, I'm reminded also of a conversation I've had when I've been mentoring accountants. I had a a black guy, accountant who, let's say, his his name was was Steve. And because he it was his first name was Joanne English name. His surname was a a very African name. And when I first met him, he didn't have his photo on his website. And I said, why is that? And he said, because I don't want to put people off because he was conscious of the prospect of racism. So he didn't have his surname on his website. He didn't have a photo on his website. I said, did you ever get racists, you know, coming into your office? He said, yeah. I do. I said, well, gotta say, Steve, why don't you put your full name and your photo on your website so that you don't have to waste your time with any racists? Because you're not you know, sadly, they're not gonna change their mind just because they've met you. If they're a racist, they're racist until they get to know better. But you're wasting your time with racists by letting them come and see you and then be find excuses not to engage with you. And even if they do engage with you, if they are if they're still an if underlying that, they're still a racist, do you really want them as clients? And he took my advice on that and on many other things. He's not looked back. He's gone on to win awards for his accountancy firm. He credits me with all manner of things, most of which are entirely down to him rather than me, but I gave him the confidence to reveal who he really was rather than to hide it. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I'm with you on that. I I I'm I'm trans, transgender. I made a decision very early on to be professionally trans rather than hide it, rather than rather say I'm not, I'm and then be found out, outed, confuse people at a later date. I even put it on my CV when I apply for roles. So I don't want you to I don't want you to interview me and then go oh actually we're not sure. I'd rather you just walked on by and put my CV in the in the waste pile. You don't waste my time, I never get to meet you, I just get rejected like everybody else Jo I don't I don't need to care about your discrimination, prejudices, whatever. So I end up working with people who want to work with me and people seek me out to engage with me because they like what I do, because of who I am. So it's that bringing your whole self to work, isn't it? Because of my lived experience, because of who I am, the insight that I bring, you're saying about your Jewishness or the insight that people may not know, your magic, your diversity of thought that you have around your lived experience, you're bringing all of that expertise into the room not just this tiny little piece, you're able to share much more and that makes you more relatable and and people would actually know you if they can trust you because you are open about who you are. I'd like to think so. I remember Mark Lee: that that conversation with the the friend I'm calling Steve, was helped by I was running a a roundtable group of, self practitioner accountants, and there was an orthodox Jewish guy there who wore a skullcap. And I hadn't been thinking of him when I said what I said, but he chipped in afterwards and said, that is why there is a video of me wearing my skullcap front and center of my website. Because if somebody is anti Semitic, I don't want them anywhere near my office. You know, there's no point me me hiding it, and then they come in and I've gotta deal with that. That's not gonna make my day. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. As we're talking about being Jewish, I I was fortunate enough to be invited to a conference to speak, in Tel Aviv last summer. And I I was entertained there was no fee apart from my expenses and the promise and the promise of a good holiday while I was there. And so I actually had a 5 day stay in Tel Aviv. One day at that one day was conference and they I was I was royally entertained, taken to the Dead Sea, I swam or floated the Dead Sea, I went to is it there's a fort on top of the hill, is it Mashata, Marsada, that's it, which is actually below sea level, isn't it still, even on top of Mark Lee: a mountain? My knowledge of such things is not not what one might expect. Joanne Lockwood: And over I think I overlooked the Dead Sea or overlooked Jordan you can see Jordan from the top and it was a Roman fort or something that was barricaded many many centuries ago Jo we had a fantastic time and it really surprised me about the culture there to learn about the real people's lives because we were spending time with real people not just in a touristy way but in a kind of a business y sense and also people going out in the evenings with families and some of the culture Jo it's really interesting to get to know people and just to know their culture as people because often we see all the media bias, we hear all this stuff that goes on, which you don't get to know the real people. And to listen to the stories about how they were living in fear, how they we went around Jerusalem and I was in Jerusalem probably 20 or 30 years ago, but this time I went back the borders have moved, there was areas Jerusalem couldn't go anymore and if you go to the Wailing Wall you go to the under to the the tunnels under under the castle in Jerusalem. There were when you come out the other side, you end up actually in in the Palestinian part, Jerusalem now, whereas before you came out into the into the into the Jewish side. So things have really changed there. Where am I going with this? So yes, Jo the Wailing Wall when I went there the first time I went to the left hand side of the Wailing Wall and it was really interesting this time to go back to the right hand side and wearing a shawl and covering myself up and seeing a different perspective on religion and how the women were versus how you're looking at looking over the wall to see the see the the bar mitzvahs or the other things going on or the the other celebrations going on around the the male Orthodox Jews with their hats and their ringlets and everything else and their coats so it's really really interesting to understand the culture as a woman and how that works in Jewish society, how there's a lot of exclusion of women from a lot of the religious ceremonies, there are a lot of very men only temples and stuff or where people pray. So yes it's very interesting to get perspective on on that culture between 2 genders. Well and and it it it Mark Lee: even goes beyond that because, you know, some of them them and and I think this is the true across, I'm gonna say, many religions. It's certainly true across both, Islam and and Judaism that the more observant religious fanatical one is about one's religion, the more exclusion there is and the more focus there is on the male role as as opposed to the the female role. And the more and this is the and the limited diversity, there is. The but even within a religion, and we we see this with, the Shiites and Sunni Muslims. We see this across the different levels of religious observance within the Jewish community, both in Israel and around the world, that, effectively, there's discrimination against those who don't do everything. Yeah. I I went to a a Jewish secondary school, because my parents had limited ability to teach me very much about the religion. And I remember I came away feeling I'd been discriminated against because we didn't belong to an orthodox synagogue grouping. Now bear in mind, in the UK, there are sort of 4 different levels of belonging to a Jewish, to a to a synagogue group, or or you might not belong to 1 at all. But even those who bill actually, there's possibly more than 4 or 5 of won't bother boring you with them. But even those that belong to a ostensibly orthodox group may not be practicing in an orthodox way following all the laws. It's just what they've done traditionally. But because I didn't belong to that group, I had religious studies teachers who and I still remember, who looked down on me because my family had chosen a different level of of practice and observance. And I think that that turned me off the whole thing for for quite a while. So And and I I've equally heard that, that there well, if I know, there are plenty of black Jews around the world, not just in not just in Israel, but in the UK and, and America and elsewhere who suffer discrimination not you know, they they suffer discrimination, a, because they're black racists, also because they're white, anti semites. But, sadly, they also suffer racism amongst the Jewish community who who are for the same racist reasons that you can be that apply in any any community. And like all these things, invariably, it comes down to a lack of education, lack of understanding, lack of knowledge. Joanne Lockwood: Joanne this is where this word we were talking about before went live. Intersectionality plays into where someone is suffering discrimination, a) because they're black, b) because they're Jewish, and c) because they're a different ethnicity of Jewishness. And I was I became hyper aware of this when I was when I was in Israel about how the Filipino Jewish people within Israel tend to be the lower paid, domestic role type people and there was a different way of talking about the Russian Jews who were there and also the people who were born in Israel who had taken part in national service versus people who had emigrated there and didn't do national services. There's a whole hierarchy of Jewishness within their society and bias and discrimination that went on. And I remember having this fantastic conversation with a rabbi, he had his skullcap on, he had what I would describe as typically a rabbi look about him, that my bias sort of this is what I think a rabbi should look like type prejudice or perception. And we're having this fantastic chat he said 'yeah I know people think because I'm a rabbi I want to be really serious and I've got to you know you've got to talk to me like I'm some sort of, saint but no I'll I'll have a I'll have a beer with you and have a drink with you and we'll have a good chat. And it was a really really good I think we've probably spoke for an hour, hour and a half just just having a real chat about life, the universe and everything that you do and completely dismissed any perception I might have about a person of his position within the faith and it was just a very relatable fun human being. I think I've enriched myself quite a lot around the world, meet different people and that's the way we change perceptions. Absolutely. Meet different people. Mark Lee: Yeah. Very, very much so. And, yeah, I I look back. Yeah. The the first trans person I met was at the Magic Circle, many years ago. And they're they're a few years older than me. They were quite angry at the way they'd been mistreated and discriminated against over their their life, and I had tremendous sympathy for them. And it was some years later before I met other trans people either in the magic world or in the speaking world. And I realized that not everybody is angry or not everybody I'm sorry. Not everybody is visibly, overtly, consistently angry. And but equally, yeah, so I'd and and the one of the the the relate related to that is within the PSA, Professional Speaking Association. And I mentioned to my my wife that I, I did know more trans people than her. She's she's she's met trans people through, her work in over the years. But, you know, could that be because they are attracted to speaking and they are speaking about their experiences and lessons that could be learned or whatever? I said, that is one of the reasons. However, 2 members of the PSA became members of the PSA long and and and are not Joanne, but have children who are transitioning or who have transitioned. And both had joined the PSA long before their children expressed a desire to transition. And what that tells me is it is far more common than we might have been led to believe. And that that was even more eye opening, I think, than than the number of trans people that I've actually met. Joanne Lockwood: I think I know I think I know the 2 ladies you're talking about who have trans children. I've had a conversation with both of them. And often when I'm doing a gig some of the gigs I do are around trans awareness, so it's kind of obvious you're going to get people in the audience who've come deliberately because they want to be educated or they have a trans interest. But often I do other gigs and it's surprising, you know, I went to Toastmasters for several years, I met people who had a trans relative or a trans story, I've had friends in my old life who've got a suddenly when I became open about myself suddenly people say what my neighbor, my friend, my this so I find that there's you I think we're only 1 or 2 degrees or one degree away from someone who knows someone who's trans in their family or in their life So it is more common, the people who have belief and it's not just around the trans people, it's around the people who know that trans person Yeah. Around people who support them or their work colleagues, whatever. Mark Lee: I have a friend friend of a, friend of a friend, who was an identical twin, and his his identical twin sadly passed at in his, I think, mid fifties, but had I had identified as trans and was planning to transition before he suffered a brain brain tumor. And for a this was long long before I knew the friend of a friend, but apparently for some time, the perception amongst the family was the brain tumor must have been affecting him, and that's what caused it. It was a big concern. The the friend of the friend who's the surviving twin couldn't grasp and understand this because they were identical twins. How could they have different feelings? There's such different feelings in this regard when apparently and everything else, their feelings were so similar. It's fascinating, but it's it's very close. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: But if you look at a lot of the language, a lot of the way people see the world, you know, if you're not disabled, if you're straight, you're not gay, if you're not trans, if you're all these things, what you're not tends to be wrong, bad, evil, needs to be fixed. So non trans people want to fix trans people Jo we need to put methods in place so that trans people don't be trans. Well why don't we make it so that trans people can be trans? There's no big deal. Then in this time when we talk about the social model of disability, I also talk about the social model of discrimination that is decided that puts the barriers in place based on this normality that we've propagated, the social cross section of normality. You know, you see people doing DNA or sequencing or research and say, well, we found what causes Down syndrome, we can stop ever having Down syndrome children in the future. Whilst I accept from my normal brain kind of perspective is that I can see the advantage of not having Down syndrome people, not putting people through that, but that means denying that child the opportunity to life, denying that child the opportunity to have great parents, parents look after them. And why do we see Down syndrome as being wrong? Bad, evil needs fixing. Someone who's deaf, do we need to fix someone who's deaf or do we need to make sure they can celebrate their life in the way they want to leave it? So I'm very very wary sometimes that we end up framing it Jo anyone who's not typical needs to be fixed or needs to be helped or there's some benevolence out that we need to stop ever happening again. I think we went through these conversations when people were gay, people who were black, people with disability, people with deaf, we have and we're having the same conversation about people who are trans saying we need to fix people so they don't become trans rather than saying let's embrace people. Mark Lee: -Absolutely. -Make it a choice Jo you Joanne Lockwood: could live your life if that's who you are, go and live your life and there's no barriers. Is it was it another Mark Lee: speaker who we we both know gave a talk a couple of years ago at, PSA annual convention and talked about was it Indian culture that has Joanne Lockwood: England, Spain, etcetera etcetera, exported Catholicism, Protestant faith, religion, Christianity around the world and with that came prejudice, bigotry and the white way with a w the white way of doing things, our social construct, our hierarchy, our government, which I'm not saying some of that didn't benefit the cultures, but it also left a legacy of racial racism, sexism and straight homophobia and transphobia Jo still a lot of the Commonwealth still have anti LGBT laws which we exported to them. Which is Mark Lee: very sad. You mentioned India, the Hijra Joanne Lockwood: in India were kind of revered sort of third gender that were celebrated and now they're kind of marginalized, they live in their own little corralled houses, bought out to initiate ceremonies, it almost like packs back off, so they're still stigmatized, that they're not mainstream, they're still they're still kind of seen as outsiders. Whereas several 100 years ago before we before the British arrived, they were kind of part of society in the same way that other trans or third gender or or dual gender or fluid people in other in other civilizations are still celebrated. If you look at the Aboriginals and you look at the Maoris, you look at some, some of the, North American native, First Nation people in North America, they have this sort of concept of multiple genders, there's no fixed binary, how they talk about gender is is not in this binary malefemale sense, there's probably 5 or 6 different ways of expressing yourself and none of those are male or female. So yeah we, we have this invention that we created. Mark Lee: And it's always helpful being reminded of that because I think we have a tendency to assume that what we know is right. As you said before, anybody who's different is is wrong. And I'm more as I said before, I'm more aware of that because there's an element of me that is is different. And it's very frustrating when you hear nonsense being spoken by those in power who don't understand these things and have never experienced, any form of bias or discrimination and perpetuate the idea that we should all be the same and we should all do things the way it's always been done. I'm fascinated to have my mind being opened to a broader awareness of diversity within the world in all ways, shapes, and forms and to reducing the discrimination. Bottom line is we're still gonna choose to spend time with people we can relate to. You know, I don't spend much time with people who are into football or cricket or rugby, and that make marks me out as being that that marks me out as being more different to most blokes than anything else about me. But, equally, it means I relate better to those other blokes and women and who and, people of no preferred gender. There we are. I'll try I'll try and get the terminology right, but I don't always succeed, but at least I've tried. But it but it yeah. I'm I'm more likely to find something in common with people who are not heavily sports orientated. That doesn't make me wrong. Yeah. I I I I wanted to talk. I was not into sports. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. But that's one thing that makes it a professional speaking association, for as an example, or Toastmasters or other interest clubs, if you like, organizations because you do cut through a whole cross section of society, you could be a football supporter and a cricket supporter or a rugby fan, but our common interest is speaking, educating, training, standing up in front of people, using our voice and brain to earn a living, not our hands or things, that's kind of what binds us together. Yeah. We're quite a diverse bunch. We we we have people from lots of different sectors, a fair gender balance, maybe we're still a little bit too white, we need to work on our ethnicity balance, and make sure that we are being open to that and also maybe looking at younger generation about how people are earning money through YouTube and online but yeah 2020 has given us an example now of how we can earn money online, there's maybe professional speakers we're seeing the stage speaking, wasn't it? But now we I think we're more open to the concept that speaking is a is an activity can happen online or face to face. So maybe we'll open up to to more more than modern YouTubers and the online marketers. So It's true. It's also true for local business Mark Lee: networking events as well. It's all it's all too easy to yeah. I I like to be a welcoming person whenever I'm at an event where I'm whether I'm a host or not, I go and talk to people I don't know, people who are there for the first time. There's a temptation to go up to people who you feel you're gonna get on with, and relate to and have something in common with. And to step out your comfort zone sometimes and go and talk to somebody less likely. And I'm I'm thrilled at some of the relationships that I've developed over the years because I've stepped out of what historically might have been my comfort zone. I encourage others to do the same. That reminds me of I was speaking at a Joanne Lockwood: conference in London last year, and the organizers have put on some graffiti artists making a graffiti wall with big you know the big spray paints and spray can and they're inviting the delegates to go and spray and fill it in different bits then sign the name of the bit they filled in. And I saw these these 2 guys looking like typical you know your your prejudiced sort of stereotype graffiti artists with with beanie hats and and sort of boots and shaggy trousers and and all this kind of sort of as you'd imagine sort of like your graffiti artist stereotype to be. And I sort of started having a chat with him it turns out that one had run £1,000,000,000 businesses and he got tired of it and decided to get out of it and he started finding he found street art and he said they've decided to legitimate to legitimise what they're doing because they found it a bit tricky. They kept every near misses of getting arrested for doing it on public wall. So now they set up this this business to corporates where they they turn up graffiti walls and and create an event graffiti and invite delegates and so they were proper business people and I know I've probably spent about an hour and a half talking to them and I was I chatted some people at the end of the conference because I was talking about diversity and inclusion and I just happened to say, has anybody else in the room had a chat with a graffiti artist yet? And there was no hands on them, I said well you should do, they're fantastic people, why have we chosen to network with ourselves and not with them because they're seen as the hired help, they're seen as different whatever. So often by talking to people that are not the obvious choice in your network actually could meet some fantastic people. And I've had some really really enlightening conversation with people that I I've just got up and said hello to. No. I me me the same, and I Mark Lee: encourage everybody to do it. Overcome your personal prejudices and and bias, and it's like anything. Jo before practice makes permanent, practice can certainly make an improvement and, change things for the for the better if you if you give it a go. Joanne Lockwood: For sure. I've got to ask you. You you've got a a nickname of bookmarkly. Do you wanna do you wanna tell me what was that Mark Lee: Yeah. When when I thank you for asking. When I first, went freelance, and I was thinking about what domain name to choose. My my name, Mark Lee, is amazingly common. There was an actor, Motley, who appeared in the film Gallipoli with Mel Gibson. He's now an actor director. There are various American sports stars. There's a Philippine, Philippine comedian, a Chinese rap artist, just to name a few. The first astronaut to go into space with his wife, whatever that means, was also Mark Lee. So I wasn't gonna get a domain name for my for myself. The first idea was to go with ask Mark Lee dot co dot uk. And then a friend remembered that some years previously, I'd been thinking of creating a flyer promotional flyer for entertaining at, gigs for for for grown ups in the days when I did that sort of thing. And that he'd include the designer had included a tear off magic wand that could also be used as a bookmark. And that idea evolved to become well, how about bookmarkly? Because that's what I wanted people to do. So I took the book name I took the website bookmarkly.co.uk. For the benefit of those listening in color, I'm holding up a colored bookmark, which, is my business card in the days when we used to give out business cards in the shape of a bookmark, and that's been through various evolutions over the years. And my name on LinkedIn on in terms of my, my my personalized URL on LinkedIn is Bookmarkly. Facebook business page is bookmarkly. Twitter handle, bookmarkly. So it hasn't happened recently, but every now and again, I used to get emails addressed, dear book. Dear book. And then and then it if there was an assistant, it would come back and apologize 2 minutes later Jo go, sorry. It's Mark, isn't it? Which, frankly, I always prefer that to when somebody addresses me as Lee by mistake because, again, the name switches backwards and forwards as as well. So that's that's the origin of why some people refer to me as bookmarkedly. It makes me more memorable. So I like so I I It does. Joanne Lockwood: And that's magic, as I say. Absolutely. Find find the magic. Find the magic. I'm gonna use that. I haven't used it before, but I'm going Mark Lee: to. Yeah. Find the magic. Yeah. Well, it's just the point in the in the Joanne Lockwood: in the episode where nobody say how do people get in contact with you, but I think we've established that BookMarkLee.co.uk is a very good way or search for Bookmark Lee on Google. They'll come across you. You're the inspiring founder of the Tax Advice Network, author of the The Bachelor of Success. Is that a weekly, mail shop? Weekly mail Mark Lee: shop primarily for accountants, bookkeepers, and tax advisers. The the Tax Advice Network, about a year ago now, we, I also have the domain findataxadviser.online because that makes it clearer what it actually is. Jo, if you go to find a tax adviser dot online, if you want to find 1, then it's a great place to do that. And I'm chairman of the chairman of the network. Fantastic. That's Joanne Lockwood: absolutely amazing. Well, it's been an inspiration talking to you. We've had a bit of a laugh and a giggle as well, and you're certainly not a boring old accountant as, you're you're far more fun as a magician. Social media your presence on social media you're quite big on Linkedin at the moment, people can find you there. So there's much to take inspiration from Jo a huge thank you to the listeners for tuning in and listening always to the end. Please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends if you have any tell your colleagues, I'm sure they'd love to listen to because I've got a number of exciting guests. Are they more excited? No, it can't be more exciting but we've got more guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks months. And remember also if you'd like to be a guest, if you're if you think you're exciting, think you're inspirational then please do drop me a line and tell me your story. I welcome any feedback and suggestions you may have, how we can improve the show to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, It has been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.