--- title: "Who am I, and Who are You?" episode: 27 date: 2021-02-04 guest: "Roland Chester" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/27-who-am-i-and-who-are-you audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-027/audio.mp3 --- # Who am I, and Who are You? Joanne Lockwood is joined by Roland Chester for a wide-ranging conversation about identity, labels, and the “hats” we wear in different contexts. Together they explore how intersectionality shows up in everyday life and why being able to bring your whole self to work matters for wellbeing, connection, and performance. Roland shares his lived experience of being a gay man who once stayed closeted at work, and the shift he felt when he entered an environment where he could be open. He also speaks candidly about being diagnosed with HIV and AIDS, the stigma he encountered, and the impact workplace responses had on his ability to be authentic and on his mental health. The discussion covers myths and current information about HIV, including advances in treatment and prevention, and why education is still essential. The episode also looks at how people make fast, automatic judgements, the role of unconscious bias, and how “slow thinking” can help us challenge assumptions. Joanne and Roland reflect on inclusion, safety, and belonging across workplaces and societies, including how visible and hidden aspects of identity can affect how people are treated. Roland closes by sharing his work in advocacy and education, including his book and involvement with the Positive Allies charter mark. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Interchanging labels reflect personal identity facets. - 08:19 — Achieving inner peace by unifying personal identities. - 15:15 — HIV risk shifted; PrEP reduces gay diagnoses. - 19:20 — Barrier protection neglect increases other infection risks. - 26:10 — Escorted onto plane for training, perceived positively. - 33:07 — Tolu left Hong Kong due to harassment. - 35:46 — Voice recognition software raises acceptance issues. - 40:58 — Recognising and addressing unconscious biases requires reflection. - 47:50 — Briefings confusing, unclear; desired facts and actions. - 51:18 — First COVID vaccine given to 90-year-old woman. - 58:10 — Questioning plastic masks' safety and effectiveness. - 01:02:25 — Ambassador for HIV-positive awareness, Positive Allies. - 01:07:52 — Listen to the Inclusion Bites podcast. Subscribe. ## Key takeaways - The importance of authenticity in the workplace for enhanced happiness, engagement, and productivity. - The concept of "fast vs slow thinking" and how it impacts our daily decision-making and biases. - Strategies to navigate safety concerns as an LGBT individual or someone living with an invisible disability when travelling. - Effective ways to manage and disclose personal health conditions in professional settings to reduce mental and physical stress. - The psychological impact of living dual lives and the benefits of embracing one's true identity. - How societal misconceptions and stigma around HIV have evolved, along with preventive measures like PrEP and PEP. - Understanding the dynamics of groupthink and peer pressure, and how they influence conformity and personal authenticity. ## FAQs ### What safety concerns does Joanne Lockwood face due to her focus on Diversity and Inclusion? Joanne Lockwood is cautious about her safety when travelling to certain countries, especially those with anti-LGBT sentiments like Kyiv, Ukraine, and regions with "gay free zones" in Poland. She often chooses safer transit destinations like Hong Kong for peace of mind. ### What does Roland Chesters’ experience in Hong Kong illustrate about racial 'othering'? Roland's Nigerian colleague experienced uncomfortable curiosity in Hong Kong, highlighting a kind of racial 'othering' where people of minority races face undue attention and uncomfortable interactions simply because of their identity. ### How do both speakers navigate their identities in professional settings? Both Joanne and Roland reflect on how they adjust their behaviour to fit various professional contexts, discussing the discomfort and cultural pressures of managing identities in different gender-dominated groups or while concealing minority identities. ### What is Roland Chesters' 'superpower' and how does it relate to Marcus Kahneman's concept of fast vs slow thinking? Roland describes his 'superpower' as slowing down fast thinking, which relates to Daniel Kahneman's concept where fast thinking is instinctive and automatic, while slow thinking is deliberate and reflective, allowing individuals to question biases and make informed decisions. ### How has HIV stigma affected Roland Chesters' life and work? Roland was diagnosed with HIV and AIDS but initially kept it private due to employer's policies, leading to negative impacts on his mental health. He later insisted on speaking openly about his condition, finding relief and authenticity in his life and work. ### What is the significance of Roland Chesters' book "Ripples from the Edge of Life"? Roland's book features his story and those of 14 others living with HIV/AIDS, aiming to address stigma and share diverse experiences. Some contributors chose anonymity due to fear of repercussions, underlining ongoing societal stigma. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I'll be interviewing a number of amazing people as simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You can catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify and their usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 27 with the title Who Am I and Who Are You? I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Roland Chesters. Roland describes himself as someone who champions authenticity. And when I've asked Roland to describe his superpower, he said that it's slowing down the fast thinking. Hello, Roland. Welcome to the show. Hello, Joanne. Thank you very much Roland Chesters: for inviting me. It's great to be here. Joanne Lockwood: We've been planning this for a couple of months and, I've been really looking forward to this. Me too. Me too. Okay, Rowan. So tell me, who am I? Who are you? What's that mean to you? Roland Chesters: Well, from from one obviously, great fashionista to another, how many hats do you wear? Not all at the same time, obviously. But just think about the number of different hats that we wear and change hats for labels. What labels do we choose to apply to ourselves, or what labels may other people apply to ourselves, and how interchangeable are those labels? When does one label become more dominant than another label? What I'm I think I'm talking about is is what is now in the the trendy DNI world called intersectionality, where it is recognized that there are many different facets to an individual. And some facets may be be become more pronounced, more recognized, stronger, depending on the con that the particular context that that person is at that time. And the reason I say that is in in my own experience, my own history, I'm as a gay man for many years, I wasn't out at work. I didn't share that side of my private life with anybody, which meant that on the Monday morning when you go into work and people gather around the coffee station and share stories of what they've been up to over the weekend, I was very careful to not say, Richard avoiding any, social activities. So no drinks after work just in case a mannerism or a wrong word slipped out and somebody, cottoned on to the fact that I'm a gay man. On reflection, many years later, if I had been out of work, it probably wouldn't have made an iota of difference, but that was my own kind of self stigma, if you like. When I joined the foreign office in the year 2000, joining the foreign office, everybody has to go through a very in-depth security screening, including things like, wanting to know my partner's mother's maiden name. So at that point, it was, yeah, how to be honest about this, and share information that I am in a same sex relationship and so on and so forth. So when I joined the foreign office, the first day walking into the foreign office with my head held high and my metaphorical rainbow scarf gracefully draped around my neck. It was with a huge sense of relief that at last I could be wholly who I wanted to be. I had no reservations about engaging in conversation about what Richard does, what we do together socially, and all that kind of stuff, which is great and a huge relief. Meant that I could be, I think, more productive, more engaged because previously, there was all that little bit of my brain that was on the alert, that little red flag flying saying, be careful, be careful, be careful. Don't go down that route. Now I didn't need to have that. And yet something like 3 years into my employment, I became unwell. I was eventually diagnosed with HIV and AIDS. I was off work for 5 months recovering. When I returned, the sexual health records are kept separate to all other medical records. My employers had not been told about the HIV and AIDS, only about my AIDS defining illness, which was a brain disease. My first day back at work, I shared with my line manager the whole diagnosis, so not only the brain disease but the HIV and AIDS. And she, with my agreement, went off to share that information with HR, and HR almost immediately came back, sent me that little email saying you cannot share that information with anybody else because we, your employers, cannot be held responsible for how other people may react or respond to that information. And I had been reaching out for understanding and support, not for pity or sympathy, and and they ganked me. And they deprived me of the ability to be fully authentic. Being diagnosed with HIV and AIDS, having the brain disease, actually gave me a different person, a different character. At the time I was diagnosed, I was told I had 2 weeks to live, and that makes you reevaluate who you are, what you want to do, what you want to achieve, what your legacy will be. And yet the foreign office wouldn't allow me to do that. Eventually, cut a long story short, I I forced their hand into enabling me to speak up, speak openly about being HIV positive. And that meant that I could again rediscover my full authenticity. But in that period where a part of me was denied, it had huge impact on my mental health, my mental well-being. Shall I stop there? That's quite a lot to say. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. No. That's, I've I've heard your story before. I've heard you speak live on a number of occasions and every time you talk and say those words it's extremely impactful and moving. And as you're talking what's going through my mind is that this need to be 1 person, to have 1 truth, not to have 2 voices in your head and I went through a similar, obviously not life changing, but maybe in terms of being gay and coming out around that, before I was out and open about my trans identity, I was always living 2 lives, I had 2 Facebook accounts, I had 2 profiles, I had 2 wardrobes, when I went away for weekends I was on a stag weekend with the boys which in reality was probably not a big lie But it was it wasn't how I saw the weekend or the people I was with. But it was much easier to frame it in that way so that there was no mistake, there was no error, there was no kind of it all seemed very natural to everybody else around me. So yeah. Yeah. And the But didn't the simplicity of being one person Yes. Is amazing as well. Didn't didn't you find Roland Chesters: when you were finally able to be the person that you wanted to be, the person that you were destined to be, It's like a huge weight that's lifted off your shoulders because finally, at last, you can step out into the world and say, actually, sod you, metaphorically, this is who I am. I don't have to change to to please you. If you like me, that's great. If you don't, just move on. Joanne Lockwood: Completely. And I used to describe it as having a separate subroutine in my head that every time I spoke, I had to pass it through this processor to validate it, check it, and then pass it back going, say it, don't say it and then every almost like every waking moment involved these two voices in my head, these two identities, these two ways of thinking. And it's and I found it very noisy. The head that my brain was always having conversations with itself, always questioning, always thinking and having a discussion of should I say this, should I and I was actually having conversations in my head with my 2 identities and what I found I suppose in the last probably 3 years since I became 1 person, authentically 1 person, that my brain is so quiet, so silent, so relaxing when I'm not doing anything I can literally blue sky think and shut down and just wander off and I have no noise in my head and I've talked to other people who say oh I think about this, don't you think about that' it's like Jo, I just have this relaxing silence in my head and I can then fill that silence with thought, with music, with whatever I want to do but I'm not fighting it and I and that is really powerful to hear your story about the same sort of thoughts about this this this double thinking, this Absolutely. What you said. And and all of that Roland Chesters: I've seen that. All of before that peace and that calm, all of that processing that you were going through, that I was going through, is actually exhausting. It's mentally exhausting, and mentally exhausting means it's physically exhausting. So and if as an employee, certainly less productive, less engaged, less happy because there's all of this stuff going on at the same time that, hopefully, nobody else realizes because that's the whole point of us having that stuff going on to make sure nobody else realizes what's going on. And so for me and that's why I champion authenticity because an authentic person in the workplace is a happy person. A happy person is an engaged, productive employee who will stay with your organization for as long as they need to, as long as you want them to because they found a place where they can be fully themselves. It's so important. Alright. Let's just talk about the, Joanne Lockwood: your your job where you were diagnosed with HIV, and they wanted you to effectively keep that secret, actually keep that secret. Was that a sign of the times, a misunderstanding or was that just the culture? I mean, would you have seen that in other organizations do you think at the time? Well, this was so I Roland Chesters: was diagnosed in 2006, so 14 years ago. So this was 13 years ago. And, certainly, the treatment of HIV and AIDS has moved on considerably rapidly in the intervening period. We are now at a point where somebody who is on effective treatment and adheres to that treatment who's HIV positive and on treatment, gets to a point where the viral load is so low in their bloodstream that it's no longer detectable well managed, it's undetectable. And if it's undetectable, it means that it's not strong enough for that person to be able to transmit the virus to somebody else so they are no longer infectious. And the current slogan is u equals u, undetectable equals untransmittable. But not many people know that. Not many people understand that. Not many people are aware of that. And this is only in the last 3 years or so that this has happened. So 13 years ago, it was potentially a different story. But even then, the mythology that if you use the same cup, even though it's being washed, if you use the same keyboard, if you use a toilet seat, that's something and all of that kind of stuff. Just touching. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think the response of my then employers was based on that outdated mythology. Eventually, when I kind of forced the situation and and was able to speak openly, World AIDS Day is 1st December every year. So I organized on on the 1st World AIDS Day when I was out as being HIV positive to have some speakers come in from the Terrence Higgins Trust, which is the the biggest charge in the UK that supports HIV positive people to come and talk about HIV and AIDS, the global pandemic because, you know, there have been other pandemics. And I put post Other pandemics now Joanne Lockwood: available. Yes. Absolutely. Too surprised at 1. And I Roland Chesters: put posters up around the office advertising this event with my name on it, my phone number saying I was organizing it as a colleague living with HIV and AIDS. And posters were defaced. They had graffiti put on them, some of them were slashed with scissors or a knife, some were pulled off the wall and torn into pieces and trodden on and I I was, bearing in mind that this is this was probably about 2, 3 years after my diagnosis, It was the first time I'd experienced that kind of visceral gut reaction to me sharing information about my status. And, yes, it absolutely petrified me. I thought that if somebody could take a knife to a a piece of paper and have that kind of intense reaction, what happens if they came across me in a corridor late one night when there's nobody else around kind of thing. But on reflection, I kind of eventually understood that this is a response of fear and fear based on lack of up to date current information. And that fear then leads to a reaction of hate, that gut reaction that says, you need to stay away from me because you're you're scary. And that then sent me on the the the mission, I suppose, of educating, informing, bringing people up to date with current knowledge and information about HIV and AIDS. So Joanne Lockwood: I remember the eighties and those adverts on television, the tombstones. There's very much a framing about this is a gay disease where the reality is more heterosexual people are transmitted than gay people from my understanding. Nowadays, Roland Chesters: certainly, initially, it was the gay community that was most affected. And, initially, the disease was called GRID, great gay related immune immune disease. But nowadays, as you quite rightly say, John, the the there is more than 50 percent of the HIV community that is not gay. The most at risk groups are, postmenopausal women who are at a stage in their life where they, widowed, separated, divorced, whatever, want to engage in sexual activity and think that because I'm postmenopausal, I don't need to use any protection because I'm not going to become pregnant. But then become infected with some other kind of disease, including HIV and AIDS. And and also the black African community that have, certain certain members of that community because of their cultural background, have difficulty in understanding that HIV and AIDS is passed through unprotected sex, one of the primary routes of of infection is through unprotected sex, but no longer came in. And I'm I'm pleased to say that the latest statistics from Public Health England in terms of of annual rates of infections have shown an enormous decrease over the last couple of years in the number of gay men being diagnosed with HIV in the United Kingdom. And this is primarily due to the introduction of PrEP, p r e p, which is, a a a form of treatment that, is part of the HIV medication that I and other HIV positive people take, somebody can take as a as a form of prevention for them to become HIV infected. And it has proved to be really successful. NHS England only agreed to allow this to be rolled out, across England, in the last few months. Scotland and Wales have provided it free for quite some time. NHS England had had withheld it until I settled it a few months ago. So PrEP is pre exposure prophylactics. Somebody can take that medication, engage in a unprotected sex, and be pretty confident that they won't become infected. So Joanne Lockwood: prophylactic, that's the barrier. That's the prevention of That's the prevention. Roland Chesters: Yeah. Yeah. And then there's also isn't there PEP as well? Is there PEP and blood pressure? It's post exposure prophylactic. So if somebody thinks that they may have been exposed to HIV, if they go to A and E or some GPs or maybe some pharmacists within 72 hours of when they think they were exposed. They will be given PEP, which is a month's worth of the treatment, which again, is something like 90% successful in preventing, that person from becoming infected. So there are methods of of controlling. The the downside of of this is that whilst we have seen the number of HIV infections decrease enormously, the number of infections from, of of other, sexual infection STIs, sexually transmitted diseases, has increased astronomically. So we are seeing a fast increase in the number of particularly gay men with syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, and so on and so forth. All treatable conditions. None of them nowadays life threatening. But the message is that PrEP prevents HIV, doesn't prevent all sexually transmitted diseases. Joanne Lockwood: So in the same way you're saying that women of a certain age are not using barrier protection because they don't think they can get pregnant, gay men are now saying well I don't need to use barrier protection because I can't get AIDS because of PEP and PrEP' Jo again it's yeah it's now allowing well allowing the rise of these other infections which were once subdued and suppressed. Well did I also, I mean I had an HIV test for about two and a half three years ago. I get regular bloods as part of my transition the general the general identity clinic wants to monitor my hormone levels and things and the bloods came back with a with a I think it was a low lymph or no high lymphocyte count which is several causes, 1 steroids, 2 is cancer and 3 could be HIV. Estrogen, for those who don't know, is actually a steroid Jo the doctor was fairly sure that it was the estrogen I was taking as part of HRT that was the cause. He also established that my other blood would have been would have had an indicator if I had some Joanne of some sort. So he decided as a complete rule it out, have an HIV test just to rule it out and I was negative, but what he said was that many people have received HIV through blood transfusions, there was a point in time where blood wasn't screened properly and that that caused, if not more than maybe person to person transmission, would ever have done because of this bad blood coming from the US for some of it wasn't it? Roland Chesters: Well actually that that when I was diagnosed Jo it was 14 years ago because I was so unwell, the medical team tried to trace back how long I, before my diagnosis I've been infected. And they traced it back, and they said it thought about 13 years. Previous to diagnosis is when I was infected. And and me working back in my mind, before my relationship with Richard. And at the point of diagnosis, Richard and I have been together 10 years in a monogamous relationship. Only had one partner before that. And that partner, we've been we were together 5 years. A couple of years before he and I met, he'd been involved in a really bad car accident, had had to have multiple surgeries, lots of blood transfusions. Whilst he and I were together, he became unwell. And it like I did, he went and saw lots of different doctors and specialists, and they came back and said that they thought that what he was experiencing was as a result of all of the anesthetics he'd been given during the operations post accident. I now know and realize that the symptoms that he was showing then were was symptoms of being infected with HIV. And so that's how I became infected. So he was infected through blood transfusions, and that's how I became infected. Of course, nowadays, all bluffs are screened, so there is absolutely no risk of being infected through a blood transfusion. The other way of of, used to be of transmitting infection is through mother to child infection. But nowadays, the the that rate of infection certainly here in the UK is very, very low because, all women that go to antenatal clinic are offered a blood test. And if the the test, brings back an HIV positive result, the mother is then put on medication, which lowers the viral, level in their bloodstream to the point that where the child is born, the child will not be infected. So, the primary route here in the UK of infection is still through, unprotected sex. The other route used to be through, needle sharing, but, Norman Fowler, who was the health minister at the time of that campaign that you mentioned, the icebergs and the tombstones, very wisely put in place the the system of of needle banks, needle exchange places. So now the rate of infections through intravenous needle sharing in the UK is very low as well. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. We think of I mean, I think of the year 2000 as being almost yesterday and I was surprised when I watched a film the other week and, I think it was set in 2003 and the mobile phones they were using were just so alien, they're bricks. I thought I think in ScratchMaker in 2003 that was just kind of like the other day. How much the world has moved on in technology but also in attitudes around, not just being gay, trans, HIV positive, etc, the world has moved on a lot, rapidly accelerating this kind of inclusion message, isn't it? And then so you must notice a big difference just the way you're accepted as a gay man let alone as a as a positive gay man. I but certainly as a gay Roland Chesters: man and very kind of funny incident. So Richard and I decided to join a local gym about 5 year you can tell, obviously, from my honed physique that this is having a great impact. It's about 5 years ago, and off we went. And, on the, you know, the menu of different memberships, they had family membership, so a couple could and I was all geared up in my head to say, actually, we are a family because, you know, we are a civil partner. We are a couple. We should have the family membership. And without a blink, the receptionist said, oh, are you a couple? Up or you dance family membership? I thought, damn it. I was all good over a 5 day. She stole my thunder. So in in many respects, in in many areas. Yes. In the UK. Obviously, other parts of the world, not necessarily so enlightened. One incident when I was working at the foreign office after I was fully out about HIV and AIDS, I was working as diverse and inclusion officer, and I had to go and deliver training overseas about diversity inclusion. It's slightly, ironic because I was asked to go and deliver training in Dubai. Dubai is one of those countries that will not accept anybody living with HIV to enter, the country even if in transit. And in order for me to be able to go and deliver the training, the foreign office had to give the guarantee that I would leave the country after delivering the 5 days of of training. And in order to guarantee that, they would escort me onto the plane, to to leave the country. And I agreed to all this because I wanted to go and do it and and thought it'd be an interesting experience and so on and so forth. And then sort of the thought processes start kicking in as either I can see this as being escorted out of the country as a convict in shackles because I've done something horrendous, or I can see this as being like a state visit because state visits, the important person is escorted onto the plane to make sure they're sat comfortably and so on and so forth. And in my mind, I thought this is it. It's a state visit. It's gonna be fine. It's a state visit. Did the 5 days' worth of training, and then the the the poor unfortunate lad who'd drawn a short straw to escort me back onto the the plane, from the office. He was very young. And he all the way to the airport, in the car, through the airport, up to the door of the plane, he couldn't stop apologizing, saying how embarrassed he was, how ashamed he was having to do this, and he hoped I'd understood that it wasn't his fault. You know, he'd been told he had to do it. And in the end, I had to stop him. And I said to him, Patrick, Patrick, honey, sweetie, I'm on a state visit. Don't rain on my parade. Well, it went down like a bit like a lead balloon because apparently his name wasn't Patrick, but, you know, such is life. But, as I say, you know, attitudes have changed, but there is still work to be done. And I'm sure you've experienced this yourself, that attitudes have changed but there's still work to be done. But there's still Joanne Lockwood: territories in this in the world where it's not safe being you isn't it? We know that but and one of the things I always say that I can't pack my trans in this in a box and not be trans for that week and some people who are gay, lesbian, bi Joanne put their their sexuality in a box, leave it at home, do what they've got to do then come back and unpack themselves. But it's really really strange I mean there's some countries that I couldn't even share a room with my wife even if we even if we weren't a couple is frowned upon 2 women or 2 men sharing the same hotel room. No. I we Roland Chesters: we went with a lesbian couple friends of ours for to Istanbul. And when we checked in, I went off with 1 of the girls to that that room, and Richard went off with the other girl to the other room. And then in the dead of night, we we swapped rooms. Came down to breakfast the following morning, and nobody battered an eyelid. But there are times when you just have to be a little bit cautious, a little bit careful, I suppose. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I I was offered some work in Moscow and I had to really think long and hard. 1, would I be safe? Well, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 10, would I be safe, basically, especially as I was going there to talk about DNI. I was there specifically to talk about trans awareness, I think if I was promoting LGBT messages then I would have been really dangerous but I think just being there but I've also been to Estonia and I've been to Ukraine, Kyiv and I was I was more nervous about Kyiv, just purely because I think that they still have a kind of an anti or not an LGBT positive kind of culture there, they're still unknown. I mean the younger generation yes they're they're evolving but it still it still holds some of that post Soviet type anti LGBT rhetoric. It's like all Roland Chesters: the what's happening in Poland with those zones that they've declared that will not allow Gay Joanne Lockwood: free. Yeah. Gay free zones. And and somehow in Roland Chesters: my mind, I've been to to Poland. I still see Poland as being part of Europe and quite close to us. And that's kind of scary that that is being allowed in inverted commas to happen. Some of my lifelong Joanne Lockwood: friends live in Gdansk in that area because I when I was in my younger life, I I traveled to Gdansk and stayed there on and off. I'd probably be there for a month over the course of 5 or 6 visits, searching for for amber on the shores of of the baltic in Gdynia I think it was. So yeah I've I've I've I've I see Gdansk as kind of a friendly warm European city and now I'm thinking, Joanne I ever visit Poland again or for a while in Hungary? I had a great week in Budapest. Budapest is okay, Roland Chesters: absolutely, yeah. Yeah, so I'm now thinking Joanne Lockwood: I may have my my Joanne passport but I'm looking at the countries that that passport is is safe to visit as as being restricted. We went to Melbourne last year for a conference and I was picking the least worst place to stop off on the way. Wow. Do I fly Emirates via Dubai? Do I go, via China, via Shanghai? Do I go via Hong Kong? Where should I stop off which is least least worst and we end up, transiting in Hong Kong because I just perceived that as the safest of of those 3 or 4 options and and the cheapest as it happened. But, yeah, it's it's a real yeah. We're having to do this double thinking again, aren't we? Where not only who am I, but where am I where am I safe? What is the least worst option here? And, you know, Roland Chesters: you mentioning Hong Kong just made me think. I I before working in a foreign office, I was director of exams for the Charles Institute For Linguists, and I used to have to go out to Hong Kong to supervise exams out there a couple of times a year and would take a colleague with me. And one time, one of the colleagues I took with me was a a a lovely Nigerian woman, Tolu. She'd never been to the Far East before. And you having been to Hong Kong and this is now probably about 15 years ago, so things may have changed. But at that time, in Hong Kong, you saw very, very few black people. And so I walking out industries with Tolu was an object of curiosity. First of all, a black woman and then a black woman with a white man. And it was fine when she and I were together. I then had to go off and do some stuff in China, and Tolu decided that she'd stay on in Hong Kong by herself just to do some touristy things for a few days. When I got back to Hong Kong, I found actually that she'd left Hong Kong after just being one day by herself because it just got too much people coming up and wanting to touch her skin to, you know, see if it rubs off kind of thing. And I can that was a real eye opener for me. You know, we talk about white privilege and all this kind of stuff. And, yes, absolutely, I recognize as a as a white Joanne, kind of middle class, whatever that means these days, I am absolutely privileged. But I recognize that and I understand it. But at the same time, if I wear one of these different labels and that takes our conversation full circle, if I wear one of those different labels of being gay or HIV positive, then some of that privilege is is taken away from me. If I choose to share that kind of information, Tolu obviously couldn't hide her skin color, and she felt very threatened. Not that people were intending to make her feel scared, but that was her response to how they were behaving towards her. And that can happen sometimes in Joanne Lockwood: organizations in the UK, can't it, where you people are being well meaning but their over curiosity becomes exhausting and you're always having to explain your story or come out again as whatever that may be. I imagine you have told the story you told at the beginning of this podcast a thousand times in various forms to to many people. Indeed. Absolutely. And and one of the things with hidden Roland Chesters: disabilities, because I I talk a lot about hidden disabilities as well, is the fact that because the disability is hidden, if you choose to share information about it, then you need to be prepared to explain to people what the disability is, the impact that it has on you, and so on and so forth. When I was in the foreign office having recovered from a brain disease, I was then diagnosed with dyspraxia as a result of the brain disease. And as a reasonable adjustment, the foreign office had provided me with the voice recognition software on the computer. And when initially the voice recognition software was loaded onto the computer, there was just me and my line manager showing an office. So, obviously, she was fully in the know about it. We then moved into a bigger office of a 150 odd people, all hot desking. Everybody hotdesk apart from me because my computer had the voice recognition software loaded on it. And people were saying, why do we have to move desks and Roland doesn't? Okay. And then, of course, when I start using a voice recognition software, everybody around me says, why are you talking to your computer, Roland? And at times, if I need to put check you know, write down stuff that's sensitive, personal, how am I supposed to talk it into it when everybody around me can hear? And then when I start to say to people, actually, I've got this because dyspraxia, then people come along and say, oh, can I have a go? That why can't I have that? That looks like fun. No. You can't have a go because it's trained to recognize my voice, and you don't need it because you don't have dyspraxia. And, yeah, it just kinda gets exhausting after a while. But, again, it goes back to labels and that, intersectionality bit and that authenticity bit, and how far do we have to go in order to be accepted, understood, recognized for who we are? I was gonna say a 100%, but are we ever fully authentic? Particularly in the workplace, do we ever actually bring in 100% of us? When I you know, in the privacy of our own home with Richard, I'm a very different person than I am in a professional setting. And I recognize and understand that, so I change the hat. I put on the appropriate hat to meet the suit the setting and the context. So maybe authenticity is about recognizing our different hats and knowing when it's appropriate to wear which hat. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That that's interesting because sometimes in certain situations, I find I'm wearing a hat without realizing it. So if I'm in an all female group, I I I act behave in one way and if I'm in a majority male group I behave in a different way, some of that's down to my historical socialisation, my familiarity with that role and I actually start realizing that I'm feeling really uncomfortable in that setting and I'm trying to get the hat off sliding back into that that that way of speaking, that culture, the sort of the attitudes and I've realized it's making me feel really really uncomfortable. And I wouldn't go as far as say dirty but I definitely feel it's uncomfortable and I often wonder whether that's how other women feel when they're in an all male company about this kind of the culture that goes on and how uncomfortable they feel as well. And maybe it's not just me. It's about it's about groupthink. It's about Roland Chesters: peer group pressure and that leads me thank you for that lead into the the fast thinking versus slow thinking bit that that you spoke about in the introduction. So Daniel Kahneman introduced this concept of fast thinking versus slow thinking, which says that all of us have two ways of processing everything that's going into our our brains. The fast thinking stuff is stuff that we don't need to reflect on, that doesn't require us to deliberate and take action on. The habit stuff, the things that we do instinctively. And the slow thinking, the stuff that requires us to sit sit back, pause, think about it, then make a decision. And the habits are stuff that we do because we need to have stuff that we can do rapidly. It's a protective mechanism. That's big and scary. I'm gonna run away from it. Do it fast without pausing to think about it. These days, obviously, hopefully, we very rarely are put into situations where our lives are in danger. But as as the scenario that you described, we Joanne feel uncomfortable, anxious, overexposed, and so on and so forth, and so we resort to those biases. And one of the biases is it's that group thing because it's protective. I'm gonna become like one of them Jo I don't appear to be standing out like a sore thumb and become an object of whatever. So I will assimilate into the group so that I don't stand out. And we're all like that. We all have fast thinking and and slow thinking. And sometimes, we need to be able to take that step back and think slowly what this actually means. Why am I behaving this way? Is it because of some kind of bias, some kind of pressure? What if I took this into slow thinking? Would that make a mean that I would make a different decision? And if the decision is different, then what is the impact of that decision on me and on the people around me? Joanne Lockwood: That comes very very typical when we talk about unconscious bias. We we talk about this kind of concept all the time, don't we? Where most of our biases are or our biases tend to be unconscious which means we don't know we're doing it but by being able to pause our brains for a second and go why do I think that', why am I thinking that', what influences am I being receiving to make me think that', what media bias, what what presumptions am I making for this label I perceive has made me think that way? And that's part of the way we're trying to train our brains to press this pause button, isn't it, and and to step back and go back into the into the slow thinking which is is quite expensive for brain though, isn't it? Our brain burns a lot of calories, not a lot of energy Jo the brain works best fast and it's really we've got to use a lot of thought process to get us into this slow methodical state of mind because when we're stressed, when we're rushing, we go into this autonomous sort of mode it's like when we drive a car, yeah? How many times have you driven home and not remembered any of the roundabouts, not remember getting there? Absolutely. When I used to do Roland Chesters: regular commuting on the train up into London, there's 3 main roads between home and the station. And on mornings, I'd arrive at the station, and I think I I don't actually remember crossing any of the roads. I could have left behind a trail of destruction, crushed cars everywhere, but I I just automatic pilot, and that's quite dangerous, really. Joanne Lockwood: But at the time, you're you're probably conscious at the time that you're doing it. If if something had triggered an exception in your mind you'd have remembered it but the fact that it was just routine your brain decided it wasn't worth remembering because it's got a memory of that junction, it It doesn't need another one, does it? Absolutely. Our brains are wonderful Roland Chesters: judging people. Our brains are wonderful things. We just need to learn how to use them perhaps slightly better sometimes. Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, we both know that this is millions of years of evolution. Yeah. It's not going to change their mind. No. And you know if you've met one Roland, I'm going to treat everybody that I think is Roland like the Roland I know and that's like the roundabout, you don't create a new memory, you just recall that information and build your own picture, yeah, as I was saying, you make shit up and fill in the gaps, That's what your brain does sometimes. Yeah. Roland Chesters: So a great Joanne quote, you make shit up and you fill in the cracks. I have to write that one down. That's what we Joanne Lockwood: do, don't we? Our brain makes stories up, it looks at patterns, looks at previous events and decides a good fit and you get into that good fit and that's the biases and the perception that we struggle to overcome, isn't it? And when we talk about HIV, we're talking about being gay, we talk about whatever it may be, your fantastic moustache, all those kind of things which the viewers will see on the podcast cover but they won't be able to tell by listening to it, but you're an awesome moustache, you're into the steampunk look and you've got some really some amazing outfits I love and people draw perceptions from me by looking at you don't they? And they obviously look at me as a trans person and they're trying to work me out and my my intelligence gets questioned 1 because I'm trans or b because I'm a woman. It's kind of you can tell people weighing you up. It's pretty weird. But it's interesting now because Roland Chesters: obviously both you and and I have made deliberate decisions to present in the way that we present. So me with a mustache and a bow ties and the outfits, all that kind of stuff, that's that's my it's almost my costume that I put on when I'm giving a professional, in inverted commas, performance because that's what gives me confidence. That's what I feel comfortable in. And we all need to have that kind of confidence and comfort factor when we are standing up delivering what can sometimes be messages that people don't necessarily want to hear or that make them feel uncomfortable. And we have to sort of drive that through and enable them to remember it. And part of enabling them to remember it is to remember, actually, is Roland with the bow ties and the waistcoats and the the twirly mustache that delivered that message. In the same way that I'm sure that that you think about how you present yourself, the Joanne brand as it were. Yeah. I I think going Joanne Lockwood: back to the hats we wear, we have a a parent hat. We have a a child we're a child obviously. We have our child hat when we're talking to our parents or our siblings. In the office hat we have our shopping hat, how we behave as a customer, how we behave as a supplier, as you said you have you have your angry hat ready ready tucked away for when someone you have to explain that you are you are a couple. So I think we all have those kind of things things in our pocket we want to bring out or we know we've got them there Jo yeah and I don't think we hide them we just bring the hats out as needed don't we? It's it's kind of transactional Roland Chesters: analysis. You know, transactional analysis where you're either an adult, a parent, or a child And, both people on each side of the conversation fit one of those roles, and the best role to have is adult to adult. We have an adult to adult conversation. But at times, we all slip into being the either the parent or the child as well, and then the conversation come gets slightly skewered by that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I sometimes do that consciously, but I'm aware of the fact that right now I don't want to be an adult. I'm quite happy being led, being told, being managed. If that makes you happy, I'm not bothered actually, I don't need to adult at this point in my life Jo I'm quite happy with this whereas other times I'm adulting up and making sure that I'm having my voice and saying what I need to or conversing in a very mature way, I don't think we're doing that now. But yeah it does you sometimes have the choice and you can step in or step out, can't you? Roland Chesters: Reflecting on current times and, you know, the pandemic that we are now experiencing and the way and I don't want to make this political at all, but just a reflection of of that that the government stepped into role of being parent when and and spoke to us as children when it might have been more effective. I said, I don't want to make this political at all, but it might have been more effective if they they establish a sort of an adult to adult relationship with us. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? But yeah. I I have my have my own views about the quality of the briefings that they were doing on a daily basis. They were confusing, misleading, beating around the bush, it's very hard to glean some evidence out of that and what you really wanted was kind of this is this is this is the facts, this is what's going on, this is what will happen and this is what we're doing about it' but they tended to have 20 slides of build up and you Jo what are you telling me? What are you telling me? What are you telling me? Oh okay, people are still dying, we need to isolate, stop people dying and this is where this is how we're basing our decision. Okay, I get it. Whilst that graph is here, we're doing this, when the graph gets to there, we can do that, and if it goes down to here, we're cool, we can stop doing that. Okay. Right. I I can I can now understand the form of myself? That would have been an adult to adult conversation, Roland Chesters: which which sadly we didn't get. Joanne Lockwood: But isn't that reflective of the media where they're always dumbing down headlines and articles to the reading age of a 9 or 10 year old is kind of that mentality where government dumb it down to the Joanne and John the Fisher Price. Well, Roland Chesters: I I my my personal feeling is that social media is hugely divisive. And and again, that kind of brings us back on the topic of inclusivity that certainly through the pandemic, of course, we've seen people on Facebook and other social I do I I do quite a bit of Facebook, but I don't engage much with other social media Joanne, but people getting very, very heated, to put it mildly, and taking polar opposite views on how people should respond and engage and react to the pandemic and so on and so forth. And just letting rip into people. The anonymous keyboard warriors have got a lot to answer for, I feel. I mean, Joanne Lockwood: certainly, the the 3 big instances I think of you you got the Remain Brexit, you've got the the election across the pond, the red blue divide there and we've now got the vax, anti vax, we can all name 100 of other ones, even Black Lives Matter has had its polarizing effect on people as well and we don't allow ourselves as a society to have open conversations, rhetoric where we can debate and talk about things, it's I'm right. You're wrong. And and that's I'm intelligent. You're stupid on both sides. Yeah. And I I think social Roland Chesters: media has a large portion of blame to to be responsible for in in that in the certainly on Facebook, you know, that knee jerk reaction, just a a short phrase of of dismissal. Some of them, sometimes very rude, very arrogant, and so on and so forth. And people feel able to do that because of the non anonymity that that provides. I think if you think back, you know, when when the computer was was first invented, if they had thought that this is how we would end up. I wonder if they would have had a rethink and thought actually might not be such a good idea. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's interesting that, here we are on the 8th December, just to put a time stamp on it. And today we had the 1st person to receive the the COVID-nineteen vaccine, so Margaret Keenan who is 90 and 91 next week. I think it's a it's a great milestone for and we I'd like to stick with it beginning of the end. Obviously this the the legacy of COVID is going to be going on for a while but at least we're at the beginning the end of uncertainty and it's a part of the country maybe to sort of if the people are scared, people are not sure about the vaccine, to listen to the fact, listen to what's going on, see the evidence and then the people who are vehemently anti vax call into question the truth that they know or whether that is true and not get into arguments about it. I think that's what I'd hope for the next 6 months as we we actually have proper evidence and maybe the government or the NHS or whoever it is looks at trying to allay the fears collaboratively rather than telling if that makes sense Jo produce evidence, show because I've heard someone the other day saying what about Thalidomide?' I said what do you mean what about Thalidomide?' I said 'that was a drug, that was a that was a to cure morning sickness, that's not a vaccine' and you know, I look back you know, I joined I was in the RAF when I left school and the first thing you do when you join the forces is you become a pincushion yellow fever, diphtheria, hep A, hep A, smallpox, polio, everything, you get top up BCG and you know we as a we would go on holidays to Hong Kong and used to have or Africa, you have cholera, diphtheria, you did nothing about and those vaccines actually did knock you out a bit, didn't they? And they were you know, you had yellow fever, you knew you had it for a couple of days. And so we would go on holiday and say what what jabs do I need, just go into doing it. And now this mentality seems to me well, are we anti vaxx? Well, if you if it's smallpox would you be anti vaxx? Well maybe not, no Jo smallpox is bad. So it's maybe reframing some of these conversations around well look, you take that, smoking's bad, we know smoking kills you but you still smoke. So you won't have a vaccination but you'll smoke, okay, drinking beer, eating red meat, all these things are carcinogenic, we know too much chocolate Jo we're happy to we're happy to kill ourselves in different ways but as soon as we were given a vaccine we say well hang on a minute, I need some evidence, I need to prove so we've got evidence that smoking kills but we still do it Jo evidence doesn't matter, the facts don't change people Jo what it is is the emotional, the attachment, the echo chamber you're in so if you're in an anti vax echo chamber then stepping out of that means you've lost your network, you've lost your friends, your tribe, So it's not just about what you believe, it's about what goes with that belief that people want to hang on to. That's where it becomes dangerous I think and that's where the labels and the hats come in and the safety we feel in our tribes, isn't it? One Roland Chesters: thing that struck me about the pandemic. In the 1st lockdown, I'm I'm I was on the sheltering list. So originally, I just used to go out for a walk of an evening later in the evening when there were hardly people on the streets, and and, we could avoid people easily. But if you did meet somebody coming down the street towards you, either they cross over the road or we cross over the road and we'd smile and say, hi. How are you? I mean, didn't know them. But there was that air of civility and caring for other people, and I really, really hoped that we would hold on to that. Sadly, human memories are very short, and we appear to have already lost the positive, the good stuff that may have come out of the pandemic, which is a real shame because it was a golden opportunity that that we've lost. That solidarity of cheer in the Joanne Lockwood: NHS at East Auckland on Thursday. And just Jo if I Marie and I used to walk down the road in the evenings and someone else would come the other way, one of us would dive into the bush or into a driveway or step right back and make way, we'd work out actually you've got right away because you you've got less pavement on your way. We could we've got more. Yeah. So Absolutely. Yeah. That's very much, Ella. Cheers. Good evening. How are you doing? Yeah. Smiling at each other. Yeah. Absolutely. Yep. We've lost that already to say that that was a that was a flash in the pan for 3 months in the summer. Yeah. What shall we do, Alan? We're arguing about masks and, we're looking at people we're ostracising people without masks and whether they are valid non maskers or we think well actually you don't look that bad' yeah just Jo it's Roland Chesters: And again, it's making that instantaneous judgment, judging people by what we see, making assumptions about a person that because you look like you don't have any kind of disability, that means you should be wearing a mask kind of thing. I I I wear a mask, I Joanne Lockwood: don't even think about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable sometimes. It builds my temperature up and I can feel kind of a bit claustrophobic, I've got one of these kind of like plastic things you put under the mask and Roland Chesters: gives you a bit more breathing space which seems to work quite well, Joanne Lockwood: But yeah, as a fellow glass wearer, it doesn't stop you misting up at all and you don't have to wave your glasses around or or Jo blind for a few seconds all the time. Yeah. I'm with you Roland Chesters: on that one. But I don't I don't Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I think if someone's gonna fix the the misting problem they would have done it by now. It's it's kind of one of those things, isn't it? Yeah. All these little devices you put on your cheekbones or you you, you smear stuff on your lenses or something, it's all kind of not not that effective. Or you you have one of those sort of visor shields that you wear Roland Chesters: instead. But I went and got my haircut yesterday, and my hairdresser had a mask and a visor. So I was very grateful to her for that. So thank you very much. But that that Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I went I was in London on Friday having my hair adjusted, which it happened, okay, every 4 to 6 weeks. And my usual thing is I go to the station, I grab a pasta pot from Marks and Spencer at Wolf Lew and a coffee, I sat on the train thinking okay I've just kind of -Take your mask off. -Yeah, Roland Chesters: I spooned it under the mask and I thought well I feel a bit kind Joanne Lockwood: of guilty so I positioned myself so I was angled down, nobody was in front of me Jo I've been very considerate about making sure that I wasn't transmitting any droplets in it but Roland Chesters: thank you thank you for being so conscientious. Yeah. Not everybody is. But No. And to sort of sat there thinking, Joanne Lockwood: how do I deal with this now? I thought, well but Jo no, I was I was very deliberate in making sure that I I was minimizing my own threat footprint if you like, in that situation but yeah at that point I was reflecting on one of these with the one of these plastic masks. A) is it comfortable and better and b) is it safe? Because if it's safe why isn't everyone wearing those instead? Because clearly people with an underlying health condition that prevents them wearing or maybe a clip on onto their face mask, the plastic shield has very little impact on your breathing abilities. So why aren't we promoting those? I'm guessing the reason is a) they could be expensive or b) they're not as effective Jo the government don't want to promote them as alternatives. Roland Chesters: Or, and I'm not one for conspiracy theories at all, Joanne Lockwood: You are. Could be that some minister somewhere has got shares in the Roland Chesters: companies that make those masks instead of the shields, and that's why no. Ignore that. Did he Who knows? Who knows? Joanne Lockwood: For the tape, you said. Yeah. For the record here. But I'm tempted to get one of those plastic masks just purely from a just be able to eat eat a sandwich on the train, but then I thought, well, I'm only get to London every 6 weeks. I can I can I can I can actually put up with a train journey for once every 6 weeks and not eat? I could I could plan my journey better. Jo, yeah well well we've been we've been yacking on now just over an hour so we've done before. We have. It's been brilliant. Very inspiring and, so you've been doing a lot of stuff over the last few years and you've even written a book, isn't it? I have absolutely. 2 years ago, my Roland Chesters: book, Ripples from the Edge of Life, was published, and has has been quite successful, I'm I'm pleased to say. And it's not Joanne Lockwood: just your voice for what I'm saying. It's a lot of other people's stories in Roland Chesters: those stories. I decided to write the book. There was an article that appeared in The Guardian newspaper, by, some journalists who were saying that very little contemporary stuff is written about HIV and AIDS. And I thought, okay. Well, that's that's a sign that something needs to be done. But I recognized I do lots of entry work in the HIV and AIDS sector and obviously engage with a lot of people living with HIV and AIDS. And I recognize that my story is is by no means unique or special. So I wrote my own story and then put a message out asking if there's if there were any other people who'd be willing to share their stories, and 14 other people came forward and said, yeah. Absolutely. Including some women living with HIV, quite a number of the people, out of those 14 have also had AIDS as well. So it's me plus 14 others. But what I thought was interesting is that out of those 14, about half of those people didn't want to to use their real names in the stories, and I'm not there to out people at all. But I just thought that that was still a reflection of the fact that, people experience huge amounts of stigma around HIV. These people didn't want their real names to be used because they were concerned of the repercussions that that may have on them. So, yes, Ripples from the Edge of Life. I've probably given away as many copies as I've sold. But as I say, it's it's had some really nice reviews. People are being very positive about it. And it's just my way of helping to, break some of the out of date mythology that still surrounds the condition. I think we first Joanne Lockwood: met probably 2 years ago or thereabouts. I remember it being quite cold and approaching Christmas, so it must have been around about this sort of time a couple of years ago at, there was a launch of a, I think a charity called Positive Allies run by Drew Dolby in London and you were the speaker that night which is I think the first time I heard you speak and met you, even if we checked on the phone. So you're quite involved with Positive Allies. So I am. What what is Roland Chesters: that? So I I I'm an ambassador for Positive Allies. Positive Allies is a charter mark created by the University of Sunderland where Drew Dalton is a a lecturer. It's the only charter mark of its kind in the whole world, and it's a charter mark for organizations who wish to demonstrate their understanding and knowledge of HIV and AIDS and how they are prepared to support and work with their employees, customers, clients, university students, and so on who, who may be HIV positive. It's something that I am really keen to promote more widely, having had my own experiences of sharing that information in the workplace and knowing the devastating impact that that can have, having worked voluntarily with others who've been through the same experience. So, yes, the positive allies on the University of Sunderland website is something worth looking at for any organization who wants to demonstrate its, positive with a small p, attitude towards HIV and AIDS. So yes. I mean, I Joanne Lockwood: it I was a bit self off the mark because it took me a while to realize that positive allies, positive was around HIV positive and being an ally to someone who was positive. But it's a great play on words about being a positive ally as well. But, yeah, no, I've spoken to Drew a number, I think after the event that you spoke at and we met, we had a great conversation with Drew and I've spoken to him a number of times over the years, my follow-up on Facebook and chat to him, and he's doing some amazing work to push this this kite mark out and to create awareness is a really, really powerful way. It's easy and accessible for all organizations to get involved with. Roland Chesters: Absolutely. And, we are, planning to refresh the the website and all of that kind of stuff, and we've got some great new activities lined up as well to support the the chartmark. Drew and I and the other, people to engage with positive allies are meeting early in January to put a plan together of how to implement all of this. So do go and look at university University of Sunderland Positive Allies website. Joanne Lockwood: I'll put all of these details and the links in the in the show notes on the website Jo people will be able to find that. And we can't leave because one of your proudest moments was to be nominated as a finest for the National Diversity Awards a couple of years ago. Don't tell me what that was. Last year in actual fact. Oh, shit. I was I was totally Roland Chesters: gobsmacked. It it sort of happened out of the blue. I got an email saying that I'm being nominated by somebody, and then sort of countdown towards the the the deadline, and I got the message. And so it was something like 35,000 nominees last year. And I was one of the 8 people who'd been shortlisted as a finalist for disability role model, which is just astonishing and astounding. And when turned up to the to the awards ceremony, met the other finalists in in my category, all truly inspirational people. It was just a night to never be forgotten, something I'm extremely proud of. But I think due to all the support that I've had across the years from from Richard, my partner, from friends, colleagues, anybody who has shown any kind of interest or support. We are we are not lone ships in the night. We can't achieve this without other people around us. So although, you know, the recipient to the award is one person, there's always a a an army of people behind that person, and I'm very grateful for that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. There's many unsung heroes but the award is celebrating all of the people doing all of the work and creating that as you say that that focus for the evening about talking and celebrating what people are doing and inspiring other people to join in as well. So I think that's it's actually amazing the work you do and with Positive Allies yourself as Joanne open out HIV positive gay man and being visible, being a role model because that will inspire No doubt many future generations and the stories in the book also amplify lots of stories which is extremely I'm extremely proud to have been to be your friend and also to, have you on here today. Jo It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you Roland Chesters: very much. Excellent. So well many Joanne Lockwood: thanks once more. For anyone listening I'm sure there's much to ponder and take inspiration from. Listeners, you mentioned your website RipplesFromTheEdge.com, connect me on Linkedin, find find your contact list from there, and I'm sure you're welcome to have people contact you. Absolutely. Yeah. Sure. Totally. Well thank you for listening, thank you for tuning in, I appreciate your sticking out to the end and if you want to catch up with other episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S, then please do check us out on the website, please do subscribe, tell your friends, tell your colleagues because I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up I was sure you'd be inspired by over the next few weeks months. Of course, if you've got a story, you'd like to be on the show, then please do let me know. And of course, I'd also welcome any feedback or suggestions you may have on how we can improve to jo.lockwood@seehangehappen.co.uk, my name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.