---
title: "Being Visible, Listened to and Respected"
episode: 25
date: 2021-01-21
guest: "Susan Heaton-Wright"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/25-being-visible-listened-to-and-respected
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-025/audio.mp3
---

# Being Visible, Listened to and Respected

Susan Heaton-Wright joins Joanne Lockwood to explore what it really means to be visible, listened to and respected at work, especially for people who are naturally quieter or more reflective. They unpack how social conditioning and workplace norms can lead to introverts being underestimated, overlooked in meetings, and passed over for opportunities despite producing excellent work. The conversation looks at what happens in group decision-making when louder voices dominate, how leaders and chairs can actively include those who speak less, and why listening is as important as speaking. Joanne and Susan discuss the pitfalls of “meritocracy” when visibility is rewarded over substance, and how meeting dynamics and power cues can shape who feels safe enough to contribute. Susan shares practical elements of her spoken-communication model, including audience awareness, preparation, managing fear, performance and non-verbal presence, and using voice effectively so others can listen with ease. They also touch on how polarised public debates can shut down curiosity, and why clear, accessible communication builds trust. Susan also reflects on her background as a professional singer and how finding her voice helped build confidence and presence, connecting that journey to the challenge many people face when stepping into visibility in their working lives.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Overcame underestimation, achieved top university place.
- 06:15 — Struggling with personal branding and self-promotion.
- 10:45 — Prefer precise, sincere feedback; accept varied expressions.
- 19:19 — Listening first, then contributing after understanding dynamics.
- 21:10 — Experienced leader adept at inclusive governance.
- 29:41 — Vaccine debate: divided opinions with no consensus.
- 33:56 — Travelled, followed vaccination guidelines, compared anti-vaxxers.
- 40:49 — Created communications model focused on impactful speaking.
- 47:51 — Long-winded COVID briefings lack clear solutions.
- 51:42 — Friend effectively summarises government slides in PowerPoint.
- 55:18 — Survived accident, sang in choir, discovered talent.
- 01:00:44 — Rediscovered confidence and voice after challenging experiences.
- 01:05:11 — Podcast on effective spoken communication and careers.

## Key takeaways

- The significance of visibility in corporate environments and techniques to enhance personal presence, especially for quieter individuals.
- Effective strategies for chairpersons to engage all participants and ensure diverse opinions are heard in meetings.
- The duty of meeting attendees to express differing opinions constructively to facilitate better decision-making, even when it may seem politically challenging.
- Constructive approaches to dealing with envy on social media by quietly commending others' successes.
- The necessity of tailored communication for different stakeholders as part of an inclusive Diversity & Inclusion strategy.
- Simplifying communication by avoiding jargon and ensuring messages are clear and accessible to all, using examples from government briefings and public speaking.
- The impact of storytelling in effective communication, drawing upon historical practices to make messages memorable and engaging.

## FAQs

### What is the main theme of this episode?

The main theme of this episode is the importance of visibility, being listened to, and respect, particularly in corporate environments. It explores how communication styles and leadership affect inclusion and the challenges people face when their voices are not heard or valued equally.

### Who are the featured speakers in this episode?

The featured speakers are Susan Heaton Wright, a communication expert and empowerment coach, and Joanne Lockwood, the host of the Inclusion Bites Podcast.

### What is Susan Heaton Wright's Communications Model?

Susan Heaton Wright has developed a spoken communications model with five key areas to enhance speaking effectiveness:
Audience understanding
Content preparation
Managing fear
Performance (including nonverbal cues)
Vocal delivery to maintain listener interest and clarity

### How should communication be tailored for different audiences?

The speakers emphasise the importance of adjusting communication to suit the audience's preferences, which might involve changes in tone, language, and delivery. This is essential in interdepartmental meetings and when addressing diverse stakeholders with different objectives and needs.

### What are the challenges facing quieter individuals in meetings?

Quieter individuals often face challenges being heard in meetings because corporate environments tend to value more outspoken participants. This can result in their thoughtful contributions being overlooked or undervalued.

### What role does a chairperson play in a meeting?

The chairperson should engage all members and ensure that diverse opinions are heard, fostering an inclusive environment where every participant feels valued and respected.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I'll be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation about the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot uk. You can catch up with all the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 25 with the title 'Being Visible, Listened to and Respected'. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Susan Heaton-Wright. Susan describes herself as someone who empowers individuals and teams to make an impact in business conversations. When I asked Susan to describe her superpower, she said, empathy. She is able to understand emotions, perspectives, and opinions from different viewpoints. Hello, Susan. Welcome to the show. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. I mean, we've been talking about this for a few months now, and I'm glad we finally got together to do this. Yay. It's great. So who who is Susan? Tell me what you mean by being visible, listened to, and respected. What does that look and feel like to you? Do you

Susan Heaton Wright: know there's a part of me that feels, oh my goodness. I'm blowing my trumpet. I'm showing off. And that's my sort of introvert state and the type of person that I was brought up to be. Somebody that was quiet and in the background and very, very humble. And I am aware through my own life and also with a number of clients that I now work with that sometimes they are underestimated and they're not as visible as they can be. And perhaps they miss out on some great opportunities or are not promoted when they ought to be. For for my perspective, when I was a schoolgirl, I shall admit that I was very much underestimated. I tell the story that when I was 16, 17, when everyone was applying to university, my school would not give me an application form for university because they did not feel that it was worth my while. I wasn't bright enough. Yet I have the exam results to prove that, but there was a question mark attached to that. What I happened to do was to find an application for my last headmistress to complete the the application for me, and I had ended up at a top university. But I recognize that because of the my demeanor and the way I was and why I was quiet, that I was being underestimated. And so there was that question mark that perhaps somebody that was a little bit more confident would that the question mark wouldn't be there for the teachers. Have you found that at all? Yeah. That's that's interesting. I'm I'm I'm just

Joanne Lockwood: thinking back to my own childhood, and I'm in my mid-50s and just kind of the culture of the time was very much I remember my parents saying to me don't speak unless you're spoken to, if you ask you don't get. So it's very much a culture of humbleness and I would almost say that being humble, being quiet, being thoughtful was a valued way of being a child in those days. If you weren't you were kind of shouted down or or punished or or told off for being too noisy or being too out there. So I think maybe socialization that we've we've we've brought up with going back generations is having a real impact on us, isn't it?

Susan Heaton Wright: I think it is. And and, certainly, that idea that if you work hard, you will be rewarded. And we know that in corporate culture, that it's not necessarily those people that work very, very hard and get the best results that are rewarded. And this plays

Joanne Lockwood: into one of my pet subjects around meritocracy. Meritocracy is it often is the people who are visible, the people who are extrovert, the people who are grabbing that are seen as more just more capable. Yes. We often we people I mean, you know, and I know it from experience that just because you're loud doesn't mean to say you're any better, it just means to say you're loud. It doesn't mean you're quiet. You're off and you're in the pushover very valid is we don't talk and amplify ourselves enough, people don't see us. We've got to be our, we've got to learn to be our own advocate sometimes, haven't we? I think Jo, and also we need to

Susan Heaton Wright: demonstrate how well we're doing things. So there we know that there are some people that they will blow their trumpet if they, I don't know, wipe their nose or something teeny weeny like that. Whereas you and I, with the way that we were brought up, we would probably think, well, you you know, that that's part of living, isn't it? I don't need to, need to show off about that. But unfortunately, when it comes to decision making, it can be those people that are remembered that have made the effort to blow their trumpet and expose their merits. Yeah. And and certainly, I

Joanne Lockwood: mean, I I'm a small business owner. I'm a consultant practitioner, similar way you are. So if I don't blow my trumpet nobody else is going to blow it for me. And we've had to maybe escape our programming and talk about personal brand, talk about social selling, talk about networking and being being our business and being visible out there, but I often find that that doesn't always come natural to me and I I always shy away when people describe me or they they read out my bio or they've written something about it and I think, oh, that's a that's a bit kind of, it's lovely what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable being described as a world expert or anything. It's kind of and yet there are people out there that rise to that that that language and they are, oh, yes, I'm a world expert and they declare themselves and Yes. Yeah. I I get a bit embarrassed almost because I don't want to be putting myself I want I want to have my personal Joanne, but I don't necessarily wanna put myself right up there on the on the pedestal and say I'm best or anything like this. Do you think that there's something very English about

Susan Heaton Wright: this? We talk about the the tall poppy syndrome, that somebody will see somebody growing up and being big and then cut them down, particularly the media.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes. I mean, for sure, we we see that all the time. And there's, I saw a speaker, who's written a book, a lady called Margaret Hefferman, and she she wrote the book and she talks about the super chicken. And that's something, you know, often where women do it to each other. They peck at each other And the super chicken is the big chicken, the bully chicken that pecks all the other women and all the other chickens and puts them down. And I think sometimes we don't like successes, do we, we want to and the media does it but we look at Instagram, we look at telly, we're the first to judge, don't we judge? We look at, oh, don't like that dress or those shoes or Jo, no hair style. And even when we say, oh, you look lovely, what we really mean is buy wouldn't wear it. Yes. I mean, you I don't know if you know that

Susan Heaton Wright: part of my background is that I used to be a singer. And certainly, if you would go to other concerts or events, there would be a certain culture around obviously not saying nasty things. But you knew if somebody said, well, you know, the flat the floral decorations in the venue were lovely, you knew that it wasn't very good. Yes. You draw attention to the

Joanne Lockwood: thing that you find most distracting or or whatever you're thinking about and then put a positive spin on it, don't you? Oh, I love I love your shoes. Really?

Susan Heaton Wright: Yeah. It it's really interesting about what I call the green eyed monster, and, us going on to Instagram or Facebook, occasionally that you can you're aware of something triggering off and you're thinking, oh, why is that not me? Why are they getting that work? And I have consciously thought of when I feel that to just take a deep breath and then say well done, even if I don't say it to the individual, but it to myself, I say well done to that person, rather than letting it eat me inside, which could be the the normal thing to do. Do you do that? Yeah. That yeah. That that's that's that's so true.

Joanne Lockwood: I I like to say thank you to people. I like to make sure that people know that I'm grateful. But in the same way, I want it to be authentic and and meaningful. So I'm not one to go over the top, I'm more one to give a quiet 'thanks I really appreciate that' rather than 'wow you're amazing' and huge, huge great trumpet. Jo, yeah, I suppose I I tend to praise in the way I like to be praised meaningful, understated, but very personally, almost like find the one thing that I think they'd be most they'd be most pleased with that I've identified, rather than giving us big, kind of flowery lots of superlatives going on, I'd rather say I love to talk and when you said this that really resonated. That that for me is very specific and it's a great great direct feedback rather than you're wonderful and amazing and, ah, it's awesome. That means nothing to me. But do you think that depends on the person it

Susan Heaton Wright: is? Because somebody that's very, you know, out there, that sort of acclaim, oh, we were wonderful, might be exactly what fires them up.

Joanne Lockwood: Oh, for sure. I I I'm I'm I'm the first one to allow or or want or or everyone to be themselves. I wouldn't want to judge anybody or anyone in their own box if that's the way they want to express that's fine. It I suppose what resonates for me is where it is more precise, more more considered, and more thought about and I'm not I'm not judging someone who does the the big flowery articles stuff and saying they haven't thought about it but I often think of that as kind of just this this big sort of like big lovey huggy kissy type type of thing rather than being a rather being as sincere, but that that's just the way I like feedback. They may well be being sincere, and that's how they do it. So I would never I would never shy away from it. I would just say, oh, thank you. You oh, you're wonderful. Thank you for saying that. Yes. But I'm not, I mean in the same way, I'm not I'm not a great fan of award ceremonies and I've been nominated for a few awards and I'm a bit cynical because often the the awards ceremony are about selling tickets to the award event. I know. Or promoting someone's brand Yeah. And they want everyone, they want to nominate the entire world, so the entire world talks about it for 6 months while they're being nominated, then they talk about the shortlist. So I'm very cynical about it and I I have got nominated for a few. And I did partake in kind of the early publicity and then I wrote to the award giver and said, look, I really appreciate the nomination, but I'd like to withdraw. It's not me. I don't want to be it's I I fully respect for those in the suit, but I'd rather be understated than under the radar. I do my personal Joanne in other ways. And it was almost like I couldn't see my back going, oh, that's a surprise. Okay, if you say so. No one's ever done that before. But, yeah, I I don't need a medal, but I I do. I I I, yeah, I I I amplify and and shine my light in different ways. Yeah. Ways I feel more comfortable with. Do you know what? One of the

Susan Heaton Wright: things that I pledged to do there are a few things I pledged to do to lift other people up and to support other people, And that is to nominate 3 women for business awards every year. Yes. I've done my 3 this year. One of them wasn't successful. I'm still waiting for the other 2 to see if they're shortlisted. But, certainly, that that brings real joy to other people. And, it just it is I feel, a way that I feel comfortable about, supporting other people and putting the spotlight on them? Yeah. I think a lot

Joanne Lockwood: of it is Joanne to my own personal bias. Yeah. About not valuing that myself in that way. Yeah. Or the embarrassment or the uncomfortableness of of being recognized for that and me thinking well, hang on a minute, I know I've done some good stuff, but surely there are better people, you know, my business decision will kick in and thinking well how can I be business startup of the year in Portsmouth? It's just it's like what you're saying is, I'm in the 5 people we're looking at, you are the winner of the 5 people we've looked at. There's a 1000 people we haven't looked at. It just happens you have you you you're in the right queue at the right time. That's why I sometimes find a bit cynical about some of these awards ceremonies, it's who's nominated you, who are are you really the winner or are you just the winner of the people in the room? Yes.

Susan Heaton Wright: But that's right then. But I I accept they could. I I say make people

Joanne Lockwood: feel good, it has people to shout about their business and promote, I'm I'm not all in favor, but, yeah, I'm not I'm not poo pooing them, I just I, I get very cynical personally about them. You know, in my

Susan Heaton Wright: case, I'm supporting someone else, and even if they don't get through, they know that I have given some of my time to write that application.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I'm I'd say I'm I'm completely with with other people enjoying them and and volunteering. And one thing strange happened to me this year was actually people started asking me to be a judge on award ceremonies. So I thought, 'mhmm, I've gone from being a candidate to now being a judge, does that mean I've skipped over, and gone to a new level where people are now seeing me as an authority whereas before they were seeing me as an aspiring. Now now I'm judging. So I I just try to work out if that was an insult or or or or a, congratulations. I suddenly thought, hang on a minute. I wanted to be I would have been nominated for that award, but now I'm judging it. Okay. Fair enough.

Susan Heaton Wright: And 2 things on that. Are they expecting you to pay for the privilege? Because some They would. Yeah. Some of the odds do, which I think is incredibly naughty, or to ask for sponsorship, or they see you in the veteran category now. Yeah. Yes. The seasoned

Joanne Lockwood: professional. Yeah. It was actually BBC Radio Solent that asked me to to be a judge on their community heroes award. So I was reviewing the entries for their community heroes and for people who'd gone above and beyond in in some respect. This is normally it's for pre COVID, this was about people who had gone out their way to help neighbors, raise funds or do something, just be a community hero. So I was a judge in that award, I found that quite quite inspiring because it it's not strictly an award I want to compete in, but so I found it a real honour to judge other people who've really contributed to their communities. So yeah, it was an honour to be chosen as a judge or, someone who could contribute.

Susan Heaton Wright: Definitely. So, yeah, yeah. Jo, I did enjoy that. Yeah. And I was also invited

Joanne Lockwood: to do another another award which got canceled due to COVID but I I also have a I'm a guest judge on us I think called the NORA's which is a, a national recruitment award. It's about websites and and recruitment systems. So I've been a judge on that for a couple of years. So yeah, so yeah, it's nice to be on the judging Joanne. Especially when I haven't, I don't actually fit into the categories myself, so it's nice to be a judge.

Susan Heaton Wright: So yeah. And nice to be asked. Yeah. Oh, it's

Joanne Lockwood: extremely validating and empowering and and motivating to be asked. It's a little gift with a huge impact. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Jo, go then. Sorry, you're gonna say? I think we

Susan Heaton Wright: should go back to, the idea of visibility because we've we talked about the visibility through awards. And certainly with a number of my clients, I'm brought in to work with people who are incredible people. They're producing fantastic work, but they've had feedback, oh, you've got to make more impact in meetings or the client thinks you're very quiet. And inevitably these people are more reflective. They're taking a little bit more time to really consider what they're going to say before they share information. And I I have no problem with that. I totally understand them. You know, as a child I would be called boring probably because I was told never to talk. I don't know if you had that. And and certainly in 1 or 2 cases, their bosses have said, no, they're really boring. And and it's not the case at all because you listen to them and find out who they are, and they're amazing people. But the the culture in in corporates quite often does value those people that are speaking up more, rather than speaking up with really good quality content. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: And I think back at my career in companies and corporates, I was running teams or managing departments. And yeah, you're right, you tend to gravitate towards the people who will like you communicate with you, talk to you, share ideas, don't come with problems, they're coming, they're very positive impact, and the people who are quiet, it's very easy for them to be left behind or ignored or, or not heard. And I've my, my style generally, if I'm, if I'm the new girl in a room in a in a meeting, is to spend the 1st period listening to that maybe even be the entire meeting, I've even had someone at the end saying, we do like our trustees to speak out and give their opinions. Okay? It's okay. When I when I have something to say, you'll hear it, don't worry. And so sometimes I'm looking at the personalities in the room going, okay, working at you, working at you, working out where I feel I fit myself, working out my level of field of expertise, if before I before I start talking about the accounts or the p and l or the sales figures, I wanna know what everybody else's kind of views are because what I don't wanna do is is jump in and be an idiot or or seem foolish. And I wanna judge the the level of directness people have. Yeah. So I need to I need to understand my style could be this and that might be a bit of a shock for people or I might go in too soft when actually they want directness. So again, I I see that as evaluating the land first and then I'll go right now I've got this and I'll go for something I'll join in and people are almost like you can see people go oh Jo's got a voice. Wow. Actually and when she talks, it's worth listening to. Yes. Brilliant.

Susan Heaton Wright: Do you think Sorry. Yeah. Do do you think that the chairperson could, have more of a mini more of an impact on that? I mean, obviously, with trustee meetings, you get an agenda beforehand. Hopefully, there are some clear outcomes that you want to achieve by the end of the meeting. Not always, but that's what we hope. And for a chairman to say and and, Joanne, what do you think if that was the first time you were around that table? Oh, completely.

Joanne Lockwood: And, yeah, I I think at the end I mean, I I I've I've I've been a chair of trustees for several charities. I've, been a non exec director of a couple of organizations. I've I've been a director of my own business, high-tech staff over the years. So I'm I'm not shy. I've also, I've also been the national president of a of an organization throughout the which is UK wide. So I've chaired big AGMs with 600 people in the room, I've traveled the country, I've I've chaired meetings all my life, so I I'm I'm actually not shy but I still have this slowly slowly approach to things and as a as a chair, I would always make sure I look around the room who's not included, who's not who's not speaking and say and actually deliberately say Jo Helen, we were talking about this earlier, you have some great ideas. Do you want to just tell me those again? Because I think you have some great ideas earlier. But that also requires the chair, do some homework and talk to the people between meetings, engage with them before the meeting starts, is there anything you want to think about, anything in the agenda that you want to pick up and then you know how to include people if they're not saying anything, because the worst thing you get in meetings is people just saying the expected to be I agree with them and you end up with they keep repeating what someone has to say, it's like, well, if everyone's agreeing with them, can we just we just have new new comments or people who disagree or people who've got another idea? But if you haven't got anything to say that's different then we just go okay. So we're all happy with that, are we? Yeah. And there's nothing worse than a a room full of people telling you I agree with the first person. Okay. That is a really, really

Susan Heaton Wright: interesting point. And only a couple of weeks ago, I posted something on LinkedIn that provoked a lot of of, interest and that was that I said, if you are at the table at a meeting, it's your duty to share your opinion. And your opinion might not land well with everybody else, but at least it will start a discussion and help in the in the process, the decision making. And it's not about a fight, but it's about having your voice and your opinion and your perspective on a particular item. And it was very, very interesting because one person contacted me, from the US and she said, the thing is, when everybody says yes and agrees, it's a very, very expensive decision making process because all of those people could be doing something else in the business.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes. You actually want to have views that that not Jo argue or disagree strongly, but have a a modification or a reflection that maybe is is not being thought about. So I agree with so and Jo, but one of the things I was thinking of could we do this as well or instead or just adjust the wording slightly that it's adding value or modifying the original motion if you like. I'm just saying yeah Yeah. You're right. Yeah. If you're not careful, why be there? Yeah. But

Susan Heaton Wright: also another another American contacted me who always comments on my things, which is fantastic. Love it. And he said one of the prob he one of the problems he encountered as a leader was that quite often people would just say yes from a political point of view. They wanted to see be seen as agreeing with the leader for strategic purposes. I've got this call. Is this trouble in meetings where often the first

Joanne Lockwood: thing that happens is the person in power, the leader, the person who's running the meeting will often say this is what I want to talk about and this is what I think. So they say basically, I've told you what I think and I want you to agree with me or or or be it conflict with me. And people often, you say people you talked about in the beginning who are introvert. They're not willing to be a conflict, are they? Jo. Of course not. And

Susan Heaton Wright: if there is a power struggle anyway, they don't want to rock the boat. And I can I can get that? It's sort of setting a a framework where individual opinion is not valued because the leaders already set set the agenda and and what the outcome is. Yeah. I I think as

Joanne Lockwood: a as a whole Joanne, I mean, when I when I talk about inclusion from a business perspective, it one of the things is about communication and listening. And the leaders need to start by listening, not by not by telling or or manipulating the outcome by giving opinion. And the oh, one of my bugbears,

Susan Heaton Wright: I have a number, as you can probably realize, is when people run, speak like a leader challenges. And actually, it should never be speak like a leader. It should be communicate like a leader. And you hit the nail on the head about listening.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. We we don't listen. We we we we we talk to sell our opinion. We talk to prove ourselves, right, we talk to prove ourselves that we've got more value than somebody or we got a we're we're intelligent or worth something rather than saying, actually, I I wanna talk so I can find out. I wanna actually I'm I'm only talking to clarify. I'm talking to find out information. I'm questioning because I may not be right. And there's a there's a state there's a there's a quote I often use in terms of the training I run, which is, strong opinions are weakly held. So it's great to have an opinion, it's great to know what you stand for, it's great to know you have have some value. But you also you hold those opinions so lightly, that you want to prove yourself wrong, you want to find out whether your theory, you're testing yourself, your perspective is valid. How often do we go in there saying I'm right, actually, how about I could be wrong, tell me what you think. I'm really interested to understand why you think differently to me then I can modify my sense of right and wrong or perspective and go, actually, Susan's got a point there. I hadn't thought of that before. But I don't hear that if I'm just saying I'm right to die.

Susan Heaton Wright: I agree with you. And that what a what an enlightening perspective on on sharing opinions. We are in a world, I feel, that's very polarized. We've seen in the United States how, you know, with the election, 2 very differing sides. And even here in the United Kingdom, particularly with, dare I say, the b word, Brexit, there are still people that are, you know, you mention something and and you're almost working walking on, eggshells thinking, oh my goodness, I better not say that. Better not have an opinion because the other this person's gonna just far away. I I remember 2 years ago somebody that I've known for 17, 18 years, I saw her in the library as one does. And she was, you know, concerned about Brexit and everything. And I said, well, you know, everybody has an opinion. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion in a vote. And she got terribly upset with me just for saying that and it ended up with sort of the finger in my face because she was so angry. And I I thought that was a real shame that we couldn't just have a conversation about opinions and values and the rights. It, it, it shocked me, and it and it was saddened me. Alright. Let's talk about

Joanne Lockwood: something contemporary. I mean, I'd like to think the Brexit remain argument has been done. We we we we've left, it's done, whatever. Yes. I've I've lost any energy. The way I see the world is now we've just got to park it and say whether you loved it or hated it, whether you still love it or still hate it, it's happening, it's happened, let's make the best of it. So to me that's kind of like a there's no point in breaking that up. No, I agree with you. Where we are now, I think, is in a if you look at where we are today in 2020, 20 20 December and going into 2021, is the the new debate around vaccine, to have the vaccine or not have the vaccine. We again we've got another set of populist perspectives around not being vaccinated and around being vaccinated. And that's going to be another major divisive issue in the country where we're not going to be able to come to any consensus because the people who advocate for vaccines are going to be very paralyzed around what is anybody who doesn't want to be vaccinated must be stupid. And anybody who is not wanting to be vaccinated say well, you're misinformed about the dangers. And everyone's got experts, everyone's got a scientist, everyone's got a professor, everyone's got medium and Google and all these other information sources. It's really hard to have a have a conversation where people are actually asking questions to say, okay, so I understand that you're worried about the effects of a vaccine and you are concerned about having it for the impact to your health in the future, so where did you get that information? Where can I read about your concerns? Who said that? Whereas all I wanna say is, no, I'm happy to be vaccinated, therefore you must be crazy if you don't want to be. And that doesn't work for anybody, does it? We have this polarized Yes. Opinions, and there's no room for the centrist discussion sometimes. Yeah. And, yeah, it's the it's

Susan Heaton Wright: that central discussion that could change the mind of those people that are polarized on either side?

Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I'm I'm trying to boil people down into into 3 broad camps. There's those who are gonna be vaccinated, yeah, I'm going to be vaccinated, we're going to be vaccinated, we're all for it, anybody who doesn't must be crazy. So there's the there's the front runners here, give me the vaccine, let's do it. Then there's the people in the middle going, who are more like the the herd, the sheep, yeah, I'll say well once once everybody else hasn't dropped dead and it becomes kind of the thing to do, I'll be in there 2nd, I'm waiting for I'll be 2nd, I don't wanna be leading edge. If you've got the people who are the other side who maybe can't have the vaccine for health reasons, autoimmune, allergic to egg, whatever whatever reason from a health perspective, they can't. Or they have a belief that the vaccine, will cause them harm, which so there's that group of people. So there's now talk about modifying the the app to better flag whether you're vaccinated or not vaccinated. So I'm gonna end up with this this class divide of unless you can prove you've been vaccinated, you can't come into my shop, you can't come into the workplace, you can't travel on the bus. Yeah, it's your right not to be vaccinated, it's not your right to bring your unvaccinated body into this organization. And then how do we how do we rationalise that from an inclusion, belonging, and people perspective? That's if you're not careful, that's where the country's headed, isn't it? A very, very difficult

Susan Heaton Wright: situation. And certainly, with vaccines for children, and that has been bubbling away since my son was a baby. The MMR stuff started when he was a baby. But I know that in France, they actually don't allow children to start school unless they've had a series of vaccinations. And yet over here, that was deemed to be improper. And I I would actually agree with that. I would be very uncomfortable if little kids who had no say in that were excluded from school.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. It's it's very fine. I I'm in my mid fifties. I I was a pin cushion at school like most people. Yeah. It was it was probably before, I'm not sure if it was MMR at the time or whether I had the separate measles, rubella and mumps as a separate. But I was doing polio, I've got BCG, I've got I've doing this. I I was I spent a brief time after leaving school in the in the armed forces in the RAF. I had yellow fever, diphtheria. Yes, I had. I went there for the full pin cushion over the first 3 years in the RAF. And I've I've traveled to Hong Kong on business and another place on business. One of the prerequisites is you should have, hepatitis b jabs or yellow fever jabs or top ups and I didn't take anything off it, I just went okay, it says on it says on the guidelines I must go and get this jab before I go, poof, check myself in, go and have it done. So people were probably having these yellow fever people who are anti vaxxing are probably doing this to go on holiday now. Yes. Cholera or you know, would you go would you go would you go in a cholera zone without a cholera Joanne? Would you go into a smallpox zone without a smallpox Jo? No, you wouldn't. But you're happy to walk around the country in in what you think is safe because we're we're we're first world. Yeah. It's clean here.

Susan Heaton Wright: It's it's bizarre. And and I'm I'm I'm gonna gossip now. One of one of my n, you know, NCT, the group, she's anti vaxx and she has, 4 children and has never vaccinated any of them. The first one, when he went to university, the first day he found the medical center and said, give me everything.

Joanne Lockwood: Hit me. Hit me here. I want every

Susan Heaton Wright: vaccination going. Yeah. I I mean, we

Joanne Lockwood: we started this talk right at the beginning about giving people a voice and I think we should allow people who have alternate views Yes. To not feel shouted down, to express their concerns, to say this worries me, this scares me' and be willing to engage as a society to provide education and awareness that can be heard because often we end up, as I said, we end up with these 2 polarized camps. I

Susan Heaton Wright: agree with you. And people who want to find out more, feel they

Joanne Lockwood: can't step out of their echo chamber, their circle of friends, you know, they everybody thinks like them, they all talk about this And therefore to to to be curious in the, what if I change my mind cap, am I gonna lose all my friends because everyone is so polarized? Yes.

Susan Heaton Wright: I agree. About you. Yes. And, I mean, certainly from my perspective, if if I were to talk to that woman about anti, you you know, vaccinations, she's very polarized and has a very strong opinion and I've always respected her for it even though I don't agree with her, on on that. But what I found is is that she got quite aggressive about that and was was actually really frightening other mothers into, not having vaccinations, without providing some proof around it.

Joanne Lockwood: So they've got this unshakable belief of being right or or almost? Because doctor

Susan Heaton Wright: Google Google. Yeah. Or or or

Joanne Lockwood: adopting this role of of protector Yes. Of society and therefore they know best therefore I must but you can apply the same to the to the lay person being pro vax couldn't you? They're trying to do exactly the same. So it's not we're not we're not saying one person is more right or less right, we're just saying that that's what happens, isn't it? We we get the 2 camps, the pro and the against. Definitely.

Susan Heaton Wright: And, personally, I'm more inclined to listen to medical opinion on that. Perhaps not, if if if I'm being honest, perhaps not, the facts of the the pharmaceuticals because of course they've got a vested interest in it. But if you talk to medical professionals and, you you know, I've I've got a few friends who are working in the NHS and they're saying, this is a horrible disease. It's horrific. Please get vaccinated. To hear it from them is very interesting. But you don't

Joanne Lockwood: think with the rise of populism and the Internet that the unquestionable authority of a medical professional is now not being believed, is it? Oh, absolutely. Because

Susan Heaton Wright: because Lockwood Google says this. Yeah. And there's always

Joanne Lockwood: there's always there's always a doctor or professor that you can find that speaks against it and suddenly well my research I saw this article from a doctor and they said blah blah blah And you don't know who this doctor is, you don't know where their credentials are. I Yeah, I appreciate that. I I remember a couple of years ago going down

Susan Heaton Wright: a sort of Google rabbit hole because somebody said to me that, your vocal folds could be paralyzed by beetroot juice. Now I it was something I'd never heard and, you know, I was a professional singer. It's the sort of thing that I would have heard if it had been truthful. But I I decided to do some research about it. And after a couple of hours, I found the source, and it was somebody that was in an into alternative medicine that was promoting juices to fight cancer. And one of the things which, you you know, and one of the things that he said was and one of the the downsides is that if you take, beet root juice that your vocal folds will be paralyzed. You won't be able to talk. But there was no evidence around that, but this was being quoted verbatim. So there there's an example. Yeah. There's lots about

Joanne Lockwood: that. Yeah. And, I mean, I I look at maybe my own characteristics around being trans. There's lots of experts who are passionate in both sides. There's traditionists, there's all this and yeah, and we have we dig out experts. And I think there's a danger that in order to be unbiased, and creating debate and letting all people speak, then what we can often do is amplify voices that are minority voices and suddenly give them credibility and credence, can't we? Particularly

Susan Heaton Wright: if they're the loudest person in the room. Yeah. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: Exactly. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And that's what we we started talking about, it's about the extrovert and that energetic. And and what the I mean, let's go back to the work you're doing with organizations about being this superstar communicator and how you, how Jo you work with people to, to give them a voice and give them presence. Jo let's talk a bit about more about that. Well, one of the things that

Susan Heaton Wright: I, have done is create my own communications model, spoken communications model, and I identified 5 key areas that I believe are essential to be able to speak more effectively and with more impact. And the 5 areas are, audience, so, you know, the purpose of you speaking, understanding your audience, and I'm summarizing very briefly the content. And there are ways that you can construct your content Jo it's more impactful rather than somebody waffling on and everybody just gets lost in the meet you you you're going, yes. I get you on that one. Preparation of which, including, reading the agenda, but also managing your fear with that. I do a lot of work on managing fear. The performance side, so it's slightly different when it's virtual, but in face to face, obviously, there's more of a nonverbal communication impact taking place. But even on virtual, facial expressions a little bit with your gestures and certainly your body language make an impact. And then finally, the voice. And I don't mean about singing, I mean about I believe that you should speak so it's as easy as possible for other people to listen to you. So it's not hard work if you mumble or you've got you have, you you speak too fast. People are gonna switch off because it they're having to work very hard to listen to you. So thinking, but making it more impactful by actually having a bit of interest in your voice or a bit of passion because sometimes people are monotone. And again, the other people in the room will just switch off because we're humans. Yeah. That that

Joanne Lockwood: really resonates because I when I talk about communicating and I often say it's incumbent on each of us to understand how the other person wants to consume what you're saying. So you can't always say to the other person you must change how you hear, I must sometimes change how I speak to be understood. If you don't hear what I'm saying, if I'm not if I'm not landing what I'm saying correctly, I need to back off and Jo, okay, how can I deliver this differently? Either different phraseology, different speech, repeat, clarify, whatever that may be, rather than say, oh, it's your fault for not hearing me. Exactly. Maybe it's my fault for not speaking correctly. Yes. But also, if if you

Susan Heaton Wright: understand who your audience are, you know, if you think of a typical interdepartmental meeting, you might have IT, HR, you might have the lawyers there, the accountants, you've got marketing. You might have a whole range of different people who might have different terminology. They might speak a slightly different sub language. I don't think that's a word. But what we need to do in order for it to really make an impact is to modify the language we use and examples so that it it will be very easy for them to digest. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I I mean, I I I recognize that there's some people who want me to get to the point. So I'll I'll start with the answer and then explain it. Yeah. Other people want the explanation first and then the answer. And when you're writing sales proposals is and and you're trying to sell something, it's important to know which sort of person you're talking to. Yes. And other people just want a story first. They want you to wow them. Yeah. And then you softwares them enough, and they'll they'll buy anything. Other people just gonna cut to the chase. What are you selling? Okay. Do I want it? Yes or no? Yes, I want it. Right now now I listen to you. Jo, yeah, it's it really is understanding the audience. And when I talk about DNI, I often say that we we need to bring everybody on this journey together and recognize that there has to be a business case because that's what the financial people want. Yes. There has to be a a human fact because that's what the HR or these people want. There has to be a strategy element because that's what the board of directors wants. So we need to understand that this multi headed beast needs to be sort of packaged up and communicated different ways. Yes. I think what you're saying there is is is the way I I talk about DNI about including people in conversations. And I'm saying each person communicates differently. Yes. Yeah. Oh, you know,

Susan Heaton Wright: there isn't and there is nothing wrong with having your own style of speaking, but being aware that modifying it just slightly sidestepping or changing the vocabulary that you use slightly so that you include people is very very powerful. I think the

Joanne Lockwood: other thing when we talk about power and privilege, one one of the things I say is is is having power and privilege disinhibits you. So you're less sensitive to the needs of others. Yeah. You're more likely to be sensitive to your own needs. So often people we find in power and privilege the leaders speak in the way they want to speak without considering the others whereas if you're, a subordinate, you would tend to have to adapt your talking to upwards. Yes. And I think the power of a great leader is they adapt their speaking downwards and they communicate so they can be understood by everybody rather than just by their peers and that's the challenge, isn't it? Absolutely. It's almost like

Susan Heaton Wright: having to take your your crown off and, put, you know, flat cap on for want of a better analogy Jo that you can be one of the people rather than the the absolute star. Yeah. I mean, one of

Joanne Lockwood: the someone once said that if you you've got the the the daily newspapers are designed for a reading age of 9 or 10 or something because they're really trying to they're putting it using simple language, they're not using they're not using obscure words or long words or big hard sentences cause they recognize their average audience wants to consume it quickly, they want to get straight to the point and sometimes you have to put it in that 9 or 10 year old language so that it's very easy for everybody. Absolutely. And when I speak and I train, I'm always thinking about don't over complicate it, start basic, Build up. If people want if people want more depth, they'll ask. But otherwise, they'll go away. Okay. Okay. I get that. I get that. Thanks. And they they will switch off if it's

Susan Heaton Wright: too complicated or if if the, you know, terminology used or even if it's something, you know, loads of data or or compliance, people will naturally switch off and then they'll fill in the gaps with what they think should be there. So Oh, classic classic example, isn't it? The, the Downing

Joanne Lockwood: Street COVID daily updates, the death by PowerPoint, we've got all these experts, all these people talking about stuff, you know, Boris comes on and speaks for 20 minutes, and doesn't get to the point. What you want to say to me, Boris would come on and say look, deaths up, hospital up, missions up, infections up, right, we've got a problem here, this is how we're going to solve it. But he beats around the bush for 20 minutes and then then he doesn't land that very well, he's with his grasp and all these all these government scientists are talking through these graphs going get to the point, get to the point, I can't read dividing, you're going next IP, next IP, I'm gonna go right. So what you're saying is deaths are up, hospital admissions are up, virus infections are up, we've got to say it now and this is how we're gonna do it. All I I just need that in a graph, I just that's all I need to know. Yeah. How am I how are we gonna do this? Okay. I get it. But all this waffle is is I think this creating confusion because people don't understand what the message is.

Susan Heaton Wright: And They've got no idea. He he's just, yeah, a disaster when it comes to public speaking, in my opinion. In my opinion, he is somebody he's a typical journalist who has got a Dictaphone and is giving his latest copy, and then an editor will edit out all of the mumblings to make something impactful for the newspaper. Yeah. I think

Joanne Lockwood: the style works well when you're trying to rally the troops, you know, you're trying to get people to to follow you and march and do something and you're trying to inspire people. And I mean, some of his metaphors are allowed they're really, really strange and very born out of maybe his his public school background. That's right. When you're a leader, you need to better you need to better still concise information and deliver it so that so that people can understand it. And he's not great at that. He's used to he's used to debating societies. He's used to, as you say, talking to press, not not selling bad news. And he was And and tough and tough choices. Yeah. He's desperate to be liked as well. So

Susan Heaton Wright: it's it's hard for him to share bad news. It's almost as if he's waffling to make it a little bit more palatable, but it's no use And

Joanne Lockwood: the government advisers, they've got all of their spreadsheets, all of their graphs that all their team have been producing to their their internal documents. And these internal documents are just too much information, TMI, they need to be distilled down into this this one or two points of 'right, that's this is where we are today. This is where we need to be. This is how we're gonna get there. Got you. Yeah.

Susan Heaton Wright: This what this is what we're going to do because our project predictions are that if we don't, then we won't be able to have Christmas. This is why people don't necessarily

Joanne Lockwood: believe the message is because they're not being communicated in a way where they trust the messenger. And that's the problem, isn't it? Definitely.

Susan Heaton Wright: And this comes back to the point where we're starting here about being a superstar

Joanne Lockwood: communicator and speaking so you can be understood. Yes. And recognizing when you're you're not being understood how to adapt your style, isn't it? Definitely. And in the case of those scientists who are

Susan Heaton Wright: obviously incredibly intelligent, they've got some incredible information to impart. How can you make that easier while not having those bloody spreadsheets and slides that you needed PhD in, PowerPoint explanations to be able to understand breaking it down and why their comms department hasn't done that is extraordinary. You and me need to go in there and sort them out.

Joanne Lockwood: I've got a friend who's a, a guy who, trains people on on producing PowerPoint slides and, up your presentation. David, yeah and I love the way he the Facebook group I think we're both a member of he, he posted his take on how the government slide should be I thought that was absolutely incredible that, in one slide he basically summed up the entire government position of what we should be doing In a very easy to understand, I get it. Here's here's here's where we are. Here's where we're going. This is where we need to be. Got you. Right? I get it. I'm buying it. I'm having some of that. And it's yeah, I think it's it's all comes back to, you know, what we're talking about, how to communicate better. It's not just about vocal language, it's also about written presentation, the visual side Yes. The whole package of how we present data and information, isn't it? Yeah.

Susan Heaton Wright: Once or twice, people have given me feedback. Oh, you you speak very in a very straightforward way. You you make everything into small easy blocks. And at first, you know, my ego thought, oh my goodness. They don't think I'm bright. But actually, when I yeah. They think I'm simple. I I went back to them and said, oh, do elaborate more. And they said, Jo. You make it very easy. We can just take it in. And do you think that it we can get frightened by coming across in a very straightforward way? That we feel that we need to embellish things to show that we are an expert?

Joanne Lockwood: Some people may. I mean, my natural style is to use lots of similes, metaphors, and storytelling. So I I would always build a story into the message I'm trying to create Yes. Through some sort of lived experience or something that resonates. I told you about the Strong Opinions Weekly held and told you about that story around that. Rather than just put that slide up and say there we are, I want to give you the feeling, the impact, the understanding, so take it from your head into your heart type of thing, bring the emotional connection to that way you remember the feeling of that. And what all that Jo said that, when she explained that, that really made sense to me. So sometimes packaging it in a story because we're storytellers as a species, we storytell, we passed before we had TV, video and YouTube, we used to sit around the fire and tell each other stories to pass down the legacy and the history to each other through storytelling.

Susan Heaton Wright: Folk song and folk Joanne is traditional one. We also have a narrative. Yes. Certainly, within content, I do a lot on storytelling and different lengths of them, pick up literally because of the idea that you Joanne, it is those feelings and those series of feelings, we all remember how we feel when we hear it. And that's what we need to so in the case of the the COVID daily things, if they were to add some little stories, some little anecdotes, as opposed to those, you know, PhD level diagrams, then people would remember that. We know that. We we know that. Completely. Completely. Completely.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I completely agree with that. So I'm dying to ask you before we wrap up about your your prize giving opera singer history. Tell us a bit more about being an opera singer, I mean, I've got to ask. It was madness

Susan Heaton Wright: really, I look back on the whole thing because what you won't know is that I, and this is completely separate, but I was involved in a very serious car accident with life changing injuries, spinal injury, head injury, things like that, that took a long time to get over. I'm very lucky to be able to walk and be here, actually to be alive, so I'm incredibly lucky. But I was invited to, by a friend. Why don't you come along to one of these big choirs, to sing? So, and I as I've said before, I was one of those quiet people at the back, told never to show off even though I'd been told I'd got this lovely voice, nobody at the back. So I turned up for this audition. I had to audition for it. And it happened that there was a now famous conductor who was on the panel. And he said to me, Susan, you've got a remarkable voice. I really think that you should get it trained. Now, at the time, physically and mentally, I wasn't in such a good place, understandably, but I did start having singing lessons. I didn't contact him, which now I would probably have done for advice. But then it became apparent that that I should go to music college. And even though I was slightly older, I got the scholarship and I was a jobbing singer. So I was hugely lucky with some of the things that I did. So I did roles like Pamina and Michaela and Tatiana and, Mazenka, the barter bride and things like that. And it was a real privilege. I sang in throughout UK as a soloist on the radio TV, places like Durham Cathedral, which I went to university in Durham. So to go back there was amazing. My old tutor was there and she said, Susan, you were very quiet at university. I can't believe it. And, over in France and Italy, I got a scholarship to study in Italy as well, and Spain and the United States. And I did concert work as well. I was so lucky. And then yes. And, you know, I went from that quiet kid to someone singing in front of 3,000 people as a soloist with an orchestra, a conductor probably going, oh my god, everything's going wrong, and you have to be the leader to get everybody, to get the music going on. Because opera is

Joanne Lockwood: all about this presence on stage and the power of the voice, you can't be looking at somebody else, you've got all this facial expression and concentration in it. Yes. But the

Susan Heaton Wright: same for concert work. I mean, you know, it's not as extreme, but, you know, you something sometimes have to take over as a leader in a nonverbal way, to to reassure everybody else when there are mistakes going on. Whether that's colleagues, you know, colleague might have come in little bit late or there was a a mistake. And and what I was taught, and I think it's a really good message, is you are responsible for everything yourself. You can't go around blaming someone else if the the oboe comes in late or the tenor makes a mistake. And, you know, if you're in a hole, you've got to get out of it.

Joanne Lockwood: That is a great lesson in life. Personal accountability. Oh, absolutely. Accept responsibility. If you're late, it's nobody's fault but your own, you could have left earlier. Yeah. If you miss something, it's my fault, I could have done something instead. If I knew the risk of being late, I could have caught an earlier trend, I could have come the night before, I could have done a whole lot of things in my control. Yeah. So don't blame it on this nebulous, it wasn't my fault. Yes. But actually, you could have Joanne, you could have planned to drive early in case you got a puncture. Yeah. You could have you could have planned it to if there was a traffic jam, if there was something canceled, you could have had some contingency, you have the power to do that. Absolutely. Therefore, you can't blame it on somebody else. And it's like, no. I I get accountability. Personal accountability is is very important. And and you

Susan Heaton Wright: you know, the it it was a fellow PSA person because we're both in the PSA who actually said to me, you know, what what you have your leadership experience there, and obviously I've I've I've been the leader of my music company as well, it's quite unique and yet it is so valid within the corporate world too because you're very, very visible. I I'm just thinking as

Joanne Lockwood: you're talking about being a singer, the way you were trained and the performances you did, you you found your voice. I mean, you have you had your voice and you found it and you shared it. Yeah. So you're used to you're used to having a voice and being in front of people now. Yeah. Absolutely. And I had to push

Susan Heaton Wright: myself, really push myself to be comfortable center stage and to accept that it was okay to get that acclaim. Jo very We we should we should carry on talking for another hour because I

Joanne Lockwood: I had to find my own voice about 4 years ago. And I went from a life where I was quite happy standing up in front of people and talking and speaking after their speaking and doing other things to a world where I'd lost confidence in my own identity and whether I had a voice that would be listened to. And so I went through a whole reinvention myself 4 or 5 years ago and Jo to hear that you kind of emerged out this opera singing with a voice, I remember standing up at a PSA meeting and doing the speaker factor 1 year. And that was the first time I'd I'd ever stood up in front of a group of professionals in a dress and spoke. And I okay, I crashed and burned, I wasn't that great. But I suddenly realized what what bad felt like. And I thought I'm never gonna feel bad or like that ever again. And that was it was a great learning exercise. But yeah, and I get it completely about that anxiety of putting yourself out there when you or or anything inside you saying, I'm I'm gonna be rejected. I'm gonna, people aren't gonna like me or I wanna I wanna hide. Yes.

Susan Heaton Wright: I you know, one thing that I've learned I don't know if you've done the, professional, the neuroscience course. I think you might have Doctor Linda Shaw. Jo. I

Joanne Lockwood: I haven't done that. I I she's been she's been on the podcast actually. She was in episode 1. So if you'll listen to that. Well, I did it, and

Susan Heaton Wright: it actually there were so many moments because, a lot of what I what I do because I do, address managing the fear. And with with the journey that I had, I'm sure you can appreciate that I've got quite a few little tips and tricks up the way. But doing the course made me realize that scientifically I was doing the right thing Jo I could back it up with scientific evidence, which is part of my values. I like to be able to demonstrate those things. But, one of the things that I find very useful for anxiety and thinking, oh, everyone's gonna hate me, you know, they're not gonna love me. You know, that little voice that's going in there, that's your ego, basically. And if you can you know this, but if you can start saying, and I'm gonna be very theatrical and dramatic diva like, I'm serving my audience. I'm here to share some fantastic information. And all of a sudden that little voice goes, oh, oh, my ego is not being, fed now. And it it it when you're focusing on the audience and, serving them for want of a better word, it can take a lot of pressure off you. Yeah. I I agree, Kabin.

Joanne Lockwood: I I see myself as a a performer in a way. I'm there to entertain. Yes. And through through entertainment I will educate, enlighten, empower or whatever words you want to use. Yes. But I'm there to communicate through my own passion and that's Jo as much as someone's an actor on the stage, a singer, a rock star, whatever they may be, my my my delivery is is the way I speak, the way I inspire. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a performance.

Susan Heaton Wright: Absolutely. And we mustn't forget that. I I whether it is that you are delivering a 2 minute presentation within a meeting or a seminar excuse me. That is a performance. Even when somebody contributes to a meeting, it's a performance.

Joanne Lockwood: You are you're effectively trying to sell you and your opinion and your beliefs so that other people will take notice or listen or react or or instigate something as a result of it. Otherwise, your point, why communicate in the first place? Yeah. And that goes back to

Susan Heaton Wright: purpose.

Joanne Lockwood: Right. Well, we've we've come to the end, and we we could we could literally be talking for another hour. I'm just in danger of starting another part of the conversation. So maybe there's opportunity for me to cover

Susan Heaton Wright: again. We could carry on. Or maybe I come on to

Joanne Lockwood: your podcast and you tell us about, tell us about your podcast, because you've got your own podcast on your own. Yes, and you must come

Susan Heaton Wright: on mine. My podcast is called Superstar Communicator, and I focus on spoken communication, different aspects of that. I often have people that come on, that are experts in their own field or they've been very successful in their roles. And we talk about how spoken communication has aided them in their careers. Occasionally, I have, authors that come on. One recently was a chap called Fred Dust, and he has written a book called, and make remember it, Making Conversation. And he had some great ways of humanizing conversations Jo that they weren't just one way, but it was a two way process. So you could really connect with the person here in a human way. And the most recent one that I've had is with a lovely lady called Elizabeth Hartley, who is deaf, talking about how we need to be aware of including people with invisible disabilities in the conversation, what we can do to make it easier for them to feel part of the conversation. So that's really what it is. Well, it sounds really

Joanne Lockwood: interesting. So what's the best way for people to find your podcast? Is it on your website or Itunes or Well, it is on my

Susan Heaton Wright: website, but also it is on Itunes and Spotify and all of the usual places. And I'd love to have feedback from you if you've got any ideas of people that I could talk to other than Joanne, who is now coming on my podcast.

Joanne Lockwood: So superstarcommunicator.como.co.uk

Susan Heaton Wright: is your website? My website is superstarcommunicator.com, and I'm always happy for people to connect with me on LinkedIn as well. So that's your LinkedIn is,

Joanne Lockwood: what what sure. So SusanHeatonWright., no hyphen, Heaton, h e a t o n w r I g h t. That's right. Jo he's right, brilliant, okay. Well I'm sure you you'd welcome people connecting and saying hi and looking you up. Well, thank you so much. There's been lots of stake inspiration there, it's been a fascinating conversation as I said we could have carried on long today. So huge thank you. Also, thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the listeners. Thank you for listening this far. Thank you for tuning in. So please do subscribe and to keep updated with future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues, tell everybody. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be equally inspired by over the next few weeks months. If you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. And of course, I always welcome feedback suggestions on how I can improve. Please email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.