---
title: "Everybody can fit into the Soup model"
episode: 24
date: 2021-01-14
guest: "Derek Cheshire"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/24-everybody-can-fit-into-the-soup-model
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-024/audio.mp3
---

# Everybody can fit into the Soup model

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Derek Cheshire to explore how inclusion works in practice when people and perspectives mix. Starting from Derek’s work in creativity and innovation, they talk about why diversity needs curiosity, listening skills and better language to become genuinely inclusive, and how over-policing behaviour with rules can create loopholes rather than better relationships. They discuss how language evolves, how misunderstandings arise when people have limited exposure to difference, and why psychological barriers like fear of getting it wrong can lead to avoidance and exclusion. The conversation touches on cultural intelligence, travel and context, and how humour and stereotypes can land differently depending on who is speaking and the situation. Derek introduces his “Soup model” for organisations and society: culture as the soup, people as croutons floating within it, and value coming from contribution, trust networks, knowledge and connections rather than rigid hierarchy. They reflect on how flatter, more connected models can reduce bias created by layers, support innovation, and help people thrive at work. They close by linking these ideas to wider shifts in towns and workplaces, especially changes accelerated by COVID, and where people can find Derek’s work.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Common sense should prevail over excessive rules.
- 05:25 — Excessive rules hinder critical thinking and communication.
- 14:50 — Travel broadens understanding; dispels cultural stereotypes.
- 19:32 — Encouraging sensitivity in language to avoid offence.
- 27:14 — Fostering open, empathetic communication through patience.
- 31:18 — Indians find some imperialist contributions useful.
- 38:33 — Disabled access easier in small shops, not chains.
- 42:20 — COVID impacting retail, prompting urban regeneration opportunities.
- 45:58 — How is your uniqueness valuable and distinctive?
- 52:17 — Be authentic; don't over-rely on others' advice.
- 56:57 — Different type of globalization enhances knowledge sharing.
- 01:01:05 — Management layers in hierarchy create biases.

## Key takeaways

- The role of inclusive language in avoiding misinterpretations and fostering better communication.
- How excessive rules in diversity and inclusion matters can impede genuine interactions.
- The significance of teaching effective communication and learning skills, irrespective of race, religion, or disability.
- The impact of hierarchical structures on bias formation and employee disconnection in organisations.
- The concept of globalising knowledge and creativity over resource exploitation.
- The evolving nature of language and the challenges of keeping up-to-date with inclusive terminology.
- Strategies for revitalising urban centres post-COVID with hybrid accommodation-retail models.

## FAQs

### FAQ: Understanding Diversity and Inclusion through the “Soup” Model What is the “Soup” Model in organisational structure?

The "Soup" Model explained by Derek Cheshire likens organisational culture to soup and individuals to croutons. It advocates for a flatter structure that values knowledge, connections, and trust over hierarchical positions. This model promotes inclusive and nurturing environments by integrating diverse perspectives and talents rather than adhering to traditional hierarchies.
How can inclusive language reduce misunderstandings in the workplace?

Inclusive language is essential in promoting understanding and reducing misinterpretations. By using appropriate and updated terms, we can avoid offending others and foster a more inclusive environment. Inclusive language helps bridge cultural and linguistic gaps, making interactions smoother and more respectful.
What are the dangers of excessive rules in diversity and inclusion practices?

While rules are important, excessively stringent ones can complicate genuine interactions and inhibit problem-solving. Derek Cheshire and Joanne Lockwood suggest that common sense should prevail, promoting curiosity, understanding, and effective communication over strict compliance.
Why is cultural and emotional intelligence important in the workplace?

Cultural and emotional intelligence helps individuals understand and respect differences, which is crucial for effective interpersonal interactions. It encourages curiosity and a deeper understanding of diverse perspectives, leading to more cohesive and innovative teams.
What impact do managerial layers have on organisational culture?

Managerial layers can create biases, cliques, and mistrust as they rely on patterns to manage large groups. Higher-level managers often disconnect from frontline employees, complicating genuine interactions. Derek Cheshire advocates for eliminating unnecessary hierarchical layers to foster a more inclusive and motivated workforce.
How can organisations measure intangible behaviours and innovation potential?

Derek Cheshire proposes measuring initiative progress without relying on quotas. Instead, organisations should focus on the direction of travel towards goals, assessing behaviours, attitudes, and innovation potential. This approach values ongoing progress over static metrics.
Why is language sensitivity important?

Language sensitivity is vital in ensuring respectful and inclusive communication. Joanne Lockwood highlights the importance of using preferred terms like "Black" or "people of colour." Both Joanne and Derek acknowledge the evolving nature of language and the need for continuous learning to stay updated.
How can small businesses differentiate themselves in a crowded market?

Derek Cheshire suggests that small businesses should focus on authenticity and staying true to their unique value propositions. In a saturated market, clear and succinct messaging, coupled with high-value, niche products, can help differentiate a business from mainstream competitors.
What are the benefits of integrating cultural exposure into daily interactions?

Exposure to diverse cultures reduces unintentional ignorance and promotes better understanding. Joanne Lockwood and Derek Cheshire emphasise the importance of educating oneself about different cultures and engaging in local customs, which fosters respect and effective communication.
How has the COVID-19 pandemic affected small businesses and retail models?

COVID-19 acted as a catalyst for reinvention, allowing artisans to start unique boutiques. The shift to virtual platforms like Zoom also highlighted the importance of standing out in a crowded digital space. Joanne Lockwood suggests that towns and cities should rethink space usage, integrating social hubs to revitalise urban centres post-pandemic.
How can individuals balance inclusivity and expressive communication?

While it's crucial to use mindful and inclusive language, Derek Cheshire stresses that communication shouldn't be overly sanitised. Joanne Lockwood agrees, noting that expressive yet non-offensive communication is achievable with practice and sensitivity.
How can potential guests or listeners get involved with the Inclusion Bites podcast?

Joanne Lockwood encourages listeners to subscribe to the Inclusion Bites podcast and invites feedback or guest proposals via email at jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. The podcast aims to feature various inspiring guests and values audience engagement seriously. 

For more episodes and information, visit https://seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's s double e, change happen.co.uk. You'll be able to catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So like any headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 24 with the title 'There is Room for Everyone Within the Soup of Life'. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Derek Cheshire. Now Derek describes himself as someone who could see how to get off the tracks before the train comes. And when I asked Derek to describe his superpower, he said that he could find the nearest coffee shop without Google or Satnav. And we'll find out about that in a minute, I'm sure. So hello, Derek. Welcome to the show. Well, hi,

Derek Cheshire: Jo. Thanks for having me. It's nice to be here on a on a horrible cold day up here in Yorkshire and to talk about some things that'll warm up the cockles of people's hearts.

Joanne Lockwood: Oh, that sounds very interesting, and I'm dying to find out about your coffee shop navigation techniques. Jo, Derek, why do you say that there is room for everyone within the soup of life? What does that mean to you? Well,

Derek Cheshire: the the field that I inhabit is is basically creativity and innovation. And in the widest possible sense, that, diversity in the widest possible sense is what we need because we don't want the same point of view, the same things bringing up, the same interactions, the same tensions and frictions, if if you like. I'm not saying that we we want tension filled diversity. But when you bring things together like you do in, in in humor, for instance, you know, the straight man, the funny man, you have the logical, the not so logical. When you get all of these things together and you you you have a little bit of what I call creative tension, and that's where the ideas and the things for me come about. So I I I come at it purely initially, purely from a creativity and an innovation point of view. But, of course, that brings with it all sorts of other issues surrounding, diversity and inclusion because you can't just use people's brains. You have to use people or use in big quotes, I think. Utilize, I think, is probably a better

Joanne Lockwood: word. Utilize. Make make make use of people. Take contributions from people.

Derek Cheshire: Yes. And there there you go. I've just actually highlighted one of the issues, is language. It's it's a huge thing generally, but it's it's also a big thing within the, creativity and innovation sphere because we bring to traditionally bring together people from a number of functions within companies. And we've said, oh, well, let's have people from marketing. Let's have people from sales. Let's have people from engineering. Yeah. Let's create a common language. But the common that's where the common language actually stops. When you start including many different people, you have actually got to expand your vocabulary. So it's yeah. We just highlighted one one of the issues.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You hear use. I might I think abuse. Use and abuse. Well, actually, you didn't mean that. You meant utilize, which is what? Utilize or

Derek Cheshire: make use utilize or make make use of. Yeah. And that and that that is the thing. People people will inadvertently, make use of the wrong phrases, the wrong the wrong language. And one of one of the issues that I I I see is very, very easy to, in some cases, quite rightly to take take offense or or or exception to the use of something. But one of the problem one of one of the one of the problems I I I tend to have, is that the more we legislate, the more we have rules to tell, people what they should do or think, the more it encourages some people to find loopholes in in those rules. I I just I I think I said, in in the in my, my my notes beef before before I applied to come on your your show was that my my greatest, diversity and in inclusion wish is that there is no need for it at all simply because common sense prevails. And that's that's when in a way, that's that's what what I'd like to see. We don't have to think about these things because common sense and decency rules rather than rules rules.

Joanne Lockwood: I yeah. I agree. I mean, I'm I often speak about the fact that HR is kind of like the bastion of rule creating. And every time something goes wrong, they create a rule to stop happening again. So we end up applying the rule for the one to the many. And before we know it, we have so many rules tying us in knots that we stop people being able to think for themselves and and think rationally and see themselves out of situations. I think what you're saying there is often we have these rules, we over police or we under police or as you said people find their way around rules or actually there's a loophole if I stand on one leg and say something it doesn't count or if I we're doing the same with COVID aren't we we're creating so many rules that the rules don't join up, there's so many loopholes in these rules that people really don't know where they Joanne, so you're right that we do often create too many rules rather than teaching people how to be good citizens or good communicators. That's the that's the thing we should be doing, isn't it? Yeah. It's some something something very similar to what we what we do with

Derek Cheshire: with with, kids at school. There's a lot of talk of people saying, what should we be teaching kids at school? No. We shouldn't be teaching them anything apart from how to learn. Once they know how to learn, then they can learn absolutely anything if they want to. So it's it's a little it's a little bit like that. If if people if you you show people the way so they learn how to behave or how to deal with other people that aren't, you know, aren't maybe quite like they are, then, and and, similarly, I think the people on both sides of the fence do do need to be do need to be mindful of this because I I was just thinking about this this morning. I I have family up in up in the north of Scotland. And I know until fairly recently, you could actually say that many of them had never seen anybody that wasn't white. They just hadn't. So some they could comment on this in a in a say if they've came to visit me, they could comment on this in a public place and people go, oh, dear. That's terrible. But they don't know. They they have they have they haven't learned how to learn about this particular thing. So you you you sort of have to have to forgive them in that instance. So it's it's all very it is very messy. As I said, common sense and decency and even even being inquisitive. I mean, we're inquisitive in the world of work. And when I talk about creativity and innovation, we're very inquisitive. We're curious about things. We need to be more inquisitive and curious about other people, without obviously being heavy handed or whatever the rest of it Jo that people do actually understand what it's like to be, you know, a different color, different religion, different race, different different numbers of lambs and legs, whatever it happens to be.

Joanne Lockwood: That's so true. I mean, it sounds like you've been sitting on one of my sessions or I've been sitting on one of your sessions because I say it's that same thing. It's not about learning how to speak to someone with a disability, someone who is gay, someone who is trans, someone who is white or black. It's about understanding how to speak to people And that I think that's what you said was learning how to learn, but learning how to speak. It's it's this cultural and emotional intelligence. So that if I've not met someone who is black or disabled before, it doesn't matter because I've got people skills. I've got listening skills. I've got curiosity skills. Yeah. And and and on the flip

Derek Cheshire: side of that, those people, if you if you're trying to be curious and inquisitive, is there there is sometimes when people people get asked too much, they start feeling, well, you're discriminating. You're picking you're picking on me. No. I'm just trying to find out more. I'd I'd I'd love to know about more, honestly. And and it is quite difficult. When when we go abroad to other countries on a holiday, for instance, we have no trouble or some of us have no trouble, should I say, immersing ourselves in the culture, finding out about other people, accepting the way they behave. But those same people could be doing what they do in their own country here, and people take exception to it, or they just don't bother finding out. So I don't know whether it's a I don't think it's just a British thing, but because we're in the UK, we do actually come across this a lot more. But, again, that's stereotypes, isn't it? So you're talking about the

Joanne Lockwood: British holiday that goes to the English pub and eats fish and chips and roast beef on Saturday and then complains that the gravy isn't as good as it is back home? A a little bit. Unfortunately, I've

Derek Cheshire: seen far I mean, I've seen people on holiday do absolutely nothing. But, once, I remember or years ago when I was a student, we went we we were into railing, and I was we caught the the ferry across the Joanne, and we were at Ostend Railway Station waiting for the first train of the day, just sitting there waiting for our train. We already had our tickets. And there were some English guys, typically loud. They they were from the south, but they could have been from anywhere. They just hopped across the channel, and they they wanted to make a phone call. So they they were abusing the poor guy in the ticket office. Eventually, they got a phone card they they purchased the phone card. They couldn't speak French. They couldn't speak Dutch or or or Flemish. So eventually, they got their phone card. They paid for it. They tried to stick it in this phone. It wouldn't work. Then after a few minutes of trying, they went back, said, we want our money back and just gave this guy abuse. And he didn't really speak much English. They spoke no foreign language at all, and they just got louder and louder and louder. And this is a little while ago, but in some cases, that hasn't actually improved that much. And that's all although it is a stereotype, it highlights nicely that some people don't even appreciate the person they're speaking to. So so, yes, the Briton holiday still does exist, but it's it can be anything. But you're right. There

Joanne Lockwood: are some people who don't want to educate themselves or don't know how to educate themselves to find out about other people and to often speak through their own privilege or their own sense of entitlement without truly understanding the that it's been somebody else, and that that is that is often one of the barriers to inclusion, isn't it?

Derek Cheshire: It it it it is. But I I I find sometimes when you when you I mean, I've the radio show that I I used to be on is it was an Asian station. So the potential pitfalls there are unbelievable. The the the the faux pas you could make. But it was it was really, really interesting because I I like to put humor into into everything. And I had a conversation in the office. I said, you don't really hear about many many sort of Muslim comedians or, or I don't know what the Muslim style of humor is. And these guys just fell around laughing, and they they they gave me a whole load of stuff that would make some of our traditional, should we say, English comedians blush. This this stuff was was hardcore, and I would have never found that out without actually having a conversation with them about it. But on the other hand, you you when it's, for instance, Ramadan, you have to be very, very careful about what what you say and do. But it it it's it's it's also wanting to ask the questions. I mean, if somebody go if somebody's gay or trans or whatever, most people just they feel I don't know whether they feel stupid or what to ask the questions. What do you ask without offending someone? And and that's where that's where most people stop. It's easier to pretend not to know than to ask them ask the question. Yeah. Fear of getting it wrong is a is a

Joanne Lockwood: huge barrier for many people. And violent get it wrong. People disengage. They walk away. They exclude. And that exacerbates the problem because the body language, that nervousness becomes apparent. And I can I can tell if someone's ignoring me or walking away from me, I think, what's up with me? And it often it's it's down to the individual not having those kind of interpersonal skills, the EQ that we talked about.

Derek Cheshire: Yeah. I mean, when when people say people come out with these phrases, I hate. I won't mention I won't mention any particular groups of people at all, but they they they you they use the term I hate, and then it it could be any any group of people. They don't. They just they well, okay. 1 or 2 people They don't understand. Yeah. They don't they don't they don't understand. They they haven't got the tools to cope. They they just that that that's they're scared.

Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I've I've worked all over the world in my in my thirties. I worked for an international private bank, and I I had the the good fortune of being able to fly club class to some great destinations and spend a lot of time in those cultures both in the office and also being taken out in the evenings, just to feel the culture. But also I was also a member of a club which had worldwide presence and I spent a lot of time traveling over Europe, staying in people's homes, home hosted and I've travelled throughout the UK living in people's homes and and meeting their families. So I think once you expose yourself to that level of difference, that level of randomness from different cultures, you get the idea that people are just people, they they wanna get up in the morning, have a great day and the same as you do, they're not they're not being any more than they are in their own culture and I I think we all forget that we we create these stereotypes these people who are from different countries, the media, the press, all this kind of the government, we kind of demonise yeah, anyone from across the Joanne. We still hold 2nd World War biases and tropes around the French, the Germans, the Italians, anyone who wasn't our ally. We we have all these jokes and those are almost invading our thinking these days. We we we get very clouded by them, don't we? Well, yes. We

Derek Cheshire: are. I mean, the thing about some some of the humor and the stereotypes from the so called World War, they're they're quite easy to pick up on. And I think some of them are still are still valid, but you need to know when when you can use them and when and when not to. It's very similar to I mean, I I Joanne remember being in Cardiff and being being very careful of insulting, insulting black people, for for various reasons. And then standing looking completely in awe at at 2 people having well, Jo. More than 2 people having a screaming match in the middle of Cardiff. All of them all of them Asian, all calling themselves things that we would not be allowed to repeat in public. You think, well, what do I do here? What what what what's acceptable and what isn't? And it sort of it it sort of comes around to that, at what point can you, I would say, laugh at? Yeah. Maybe laugh at. At what point can you laugh at comment on other people or yourself without it causing offense to anybody? At what point can you do that? I mean, another example was when we when when we we used to live down in the West Country, and Bristol City Council were very, at the time, I guess, people called it political correct politically correct. And I can remember 2 ladies 2 colored ladies. 1 one was one was Afro Caribbean. I think the other one might have been of African descent. But they had a slanging match in the council chamber. One called the other something very, you know, not very nice at all. And both of them got taken to court. You know, they were both colored. They were both insulting each other. And I've and that wouldn't have happened if both necessarily had been wiped. And you could excuse you could excuse an onlooker for being confused. Let me just pick you up in a bit of language there.

Joanne Lockwood: You used a you used a phrase there that was probably you should avoid. People are black, they're brown, or people of color. You should not use the old language in the way you did. So just just for anyone listening, it's yeah. Black is the correct term when we're talking about people who are black or or brown or people of color. Jo, yeah, just we we just need to be careful that we we do understand that we have to update our language if you like because it it does evolve and change over time. Just like It does.

Derek Cheshire: It does. It does. And, obviously, obviously, my needs are a little updating. Yeah. But but that's why we're here to educate as well. Indeed. But that but but, again, that that that that is the problem with something that's evolving all the time. If, I mean, if, I don't know, technology evolves all the time, people people know how to update their technology or get to grips with it or, fashion or anything like that. But there are some things that don't tend to get updated unless you're exposed to them or it's foisted upon you. And I guess in a way, what you want to stop is the trying to impose it upon people because it's it it doesn't stick very well.

Joanne Lockwood: No. No. I don't think it's actually about imposing. It's trying to enlighten people to say this this turn of phrase, this language, this word, or this thing is problematic for some people. Some people are not happy with that language and you go okay, I get that some people are upset by that so it costs me nothing to you to to recognize that and and amend my language. So what we often find is people stick for their language Jo well, I've been I've been calling people this for for 30, 40, 50 years ever since I can remember and you're telling me I have to change, well, that's just so difficult and that often that reflects privilege, it always like it reflects that people don't have that sort of cultural sensitivity to go 'actually it cost me nothing, fine now you've told me I'll remember that Joanne that's kind of the approach that people are saying not to create rules but just to almost say this is how I feel when you say that and this is how I'd like you to you to to be concerned and that that's simply how we just adapt language and and and persuade people rather than tell them. Just point out where language could improve or could be used differently. Indeed. Look. There

Derek Cheshire: there there's one there's there's a there's few areas, though, that are a bit awkward where you've got potentially different different sets of language, if you like, for if you're whether you're dealing with, groups of people. I mean, women tends to be an example. There are a lot of lot of people lots of women who will take exception of being called I don't know.

Joanne Lockwood: Love. Funny. Love. Chef. Yeah.

Derek Cheshire: But, actually, one of the things I had to get used to is everyone in Yorkshire, whether male or female, gets called love. It's just the way it is. But, yeah, I've seen a I've seen a lot of discussion about being called, say, chaps. Some people don't I don't want don't wanna be that. And then you'll get 1 one or 2 or maybe more saying, well, actually, I don't mind that. It it it it it can it can be difficult. You have to be you do have to be careful. And you you could actually go so far one way that language gets completely sanitized. So I guess what I guess what we need to do is have some some colorful but not offensive language, which is an interesting challenge for other I mean, that's that's that's that's that's the trouble. When people talk about dumbing down, they're not so much dumbing down. It's it's just making everything completely bland.

Joanne Lockwood: But it doesn't have to be. I mean, I I'm guarded about the language I use and I hang out with a lot of people who are also guarded about the language Joanne I don't think we dumb down anything. I think we still have fun, we laugh, we still joke about things. We just don't tend to joke about things that have a person's misfortune at the end of it. We talk about other other

Derek Cheshire: I other ironic scenarios. Yeah. In in that that's fair enough. But a lot of those people, I won't say all of them because I don't know who you hang out with, but a lot a lot of people I'm sure. What was I I've lost my train of thought train of thought there. Yeah. If if if you hang around or you've got a a group that that you do hang around with, a close group of friends, wider group of friends, or even just a, I don't know, networking club that you belong to, people you see regularly, it's a lot easier to do that with that with than with people you don't see regularly or some people who will take offense at something if you've maybe only met them for the first time. Yes. You maybe should be guarded about the language you use so that nobody could take offense, But but that that's that's that's the problem I I think I particularly have had in the past. I don't think I have it now, hopefully, but that is the problem that I've had in the past. The first time you come up you you interact with somebody, you know nothing about them. So all the only thing you can do is either be almost nothing or you we do what most of us do. We we have these, unconscious biases, these these stereotypes, and they they kick in because if you wanted to read all of the cues that somebody's giving off, or little things they're telling you, body language and all the rest of it, you could use so much brainpower that you probably can't even have a conversation. So

Joanne Lockwood: It takes practice. I think I think the the key thing is, you know, we started off by saying that learning to learn, learning to converse, learning to think this way. So I think people can retrain the way they think, they can retrain the way they talk, and they can change the way they interact with the world. It just takes practice and I look back at my life and 5, 10 years ago, my my language was completely different in terms of colour and and sensitivity. So I think I think you can you can learn but I don't think we should shy away from creating learning learning opportunities and as I say I network, I go out, I meet people all over the world all over the UK, I speak at conferences in the same way you do and I don't feel that I'm constrained in my humor or my or my the way I can talk to people or or interact with people. So, yeah, I I think I think you can if if you if you if you learn how to talk and learn how to learn. I think I think I think it's very possible. Yeah. I I in in entirely. I mean, I'm just

Derek Cheshire: new neuroscience tells us you Joanne. Habit habits are not hardwired. And and they it's just a question of how much effort you put in, what what you see the rewards are as to whether you whether you whether you do it. But another one of the was it was a phrase that I picked up because I as you it's probably you know, I I did, Linda Shaw's neuroscience course. And one of the things that really stuck out for me was because we were talking about creativity at the time and facilitation. We were talking about when we're dealing with groups of people, we need to be their prefrontal cortex. Being being being creative or changing the way we think takes an enormous amount amount of bandwidth. So if if instead of relying on people's own prefrontal cortexes or cortices, I'm not sure what the plural is, if there was if there if there's some if there's some way of facilitating that, that that's what we do when we act as facilitators and let the people do their creative stuff. In a way, I think something something similar is needed. We need a a prefrontal cortex to to to help to help to help everybody. And and it's not it's not controlling because the that part of our brain doesn't directly control everything. It's it's just it's just like a musical conductor. It it it conducts the rest of the brain. So it's not we we there's no sort of synchronous communications. Jo, I think I think that's I think that's possibly possibly what we need. I love talking in medicals. No. I I agree. I I think

Joanne Lockwood: I accept that I have to make it easy for people to talk to me about me. So I know that I get a better experience in life if I help people who are clearly nervous or clearly tongue tied or don't know the good language. I also realized that some people maybe say something with the best intent, they didn't it didn't intend to be offensive. Yes, it could have been offensive, but I'll I will help them through that and try and say well actually that's not a great question, that is probably not great language, consider this instead And then I don't say you must, I say well this is have a think about why this is important and hopefully people come to the conclusion themselves, okay I get it, right, that's yeah it costs you nothing to adapt. It comes again it comes down to privilege and how you see yourself, If you see yourself as more important or or more righteous than somebody, and you Jo, what do they matter? But by by showing you a point of change, you come over in a more level way. You're not trying to create a power balance between between 2 people. So I I think we we can all try. We can all we can all put the effort and we can all all don't don't feel don't feel shame or or feel upset that you get something wrong to say, okay, I got it wrong. What can I say next time? What would be a better way of doing this? Okay. Thank you for telling me that. I'll learn. And then when you meet somebody else, you could apply that and go, well, I met Jo last week. She said this and this. And what she suggested was I ask you what your pronouns are. So my name is Derek and my pronouns are, what are yours? And they go oh brilliant Derek, thanks for asking, that's fantastic' and all of a sudden the concept has gone well because you're picking up bits of knowledge and then applying them yourself and the world's a better place you may go that's a whole lot of effort, yeah? But yeah, it is, it is a first, but after couple of chats, you know, as you said about neuroscience, you rewire rewire the circuits in your brain and before long, it it just becomes a way of talking. Yeah. It is

Derek Cheshire: it is bewildering, though, in in different, I I don't know how many different cultures you've experienced this or even experimented maybe. But in some cultures abroad, it's just so confusing. I mean, one of cultures that I'm most familiar with is India. Every everybody is sir or madam, whether you like it or not. But other things are are very different. Sometimes the language does not actually match almost match the actions. Jo peep the way the way people, well, they're supposed not to have a caste system, for instance, but they do. They but they do. The way people will look after other people whether with no matter how how different they are, but they still have this I'm I'm almost coming coming to answering my own question here because I would say almost imperialist language. I think that's I think I know where they possibly got some some of their language and some of their other systems. Colonial exports. Yeah. Are are colonial exports. Yeah. May maybe they just haven't got haven't got rid rid of the the bad bits yet. Well, as we

Joanne Lockwood: could see by a lot of the Commonwealth, they they still have a lot of the archaic exports of colonialism in terms of their attitudes towards LGBT people, say the gender biases they've got etcetera etcetera and we exported a lot of that in that with with Christianity, with our voice, and all we did was we nicked their potatoes and and enslaved them all and and ruined their culture somewhere. Although in some cases, I

Derek Cheshire: think that that they're actually in the case in the case in the case of Indian people, I think they are I think they've worked their way through a lot of this. They've I had a I actually had a con I've had several conversations with this with the Indian people in India about, because a couple of times when I've returned from there, it's just been about the end of a just being around the anniversary of separation. So it's it's been quite Joanne interesting time to talk about to talk about these things. But, yes, they've they've realized that there are lots of things that the imperialists have given to them which are useful. I mean, okay, the railways are falling falling to pieces now, but we gave them the railways and the legal system and a whole an education system and a whole load of other things. And some of the other stuff, they dismantled or thrown away or or not used. But then there are countries like, oh, well, Africa is not a country. It's a continent. But thinking about thinking about all the colonial powers, the countries there have dismantled everything. I mean, they used to have great railway routes and, well, a a number of things, and those have all gone. And they're in a far worse position than than the Indian Indian subcontinent is. So I I, yeah, I I I think they've taken some of the good bits. Maybe they need to get rid of some more bits, do a bit more weeding and pruning, but they've taken a system and adapted it. And to be honest, I think in most cases, the the the usage of maybe madam is not an insulting thing. They just want to be polite, but they've got no other they've got no other way way at the moment, anyway, they've got no other ways of of of actually demonstrating it. Yeah. And I I

Joanne Lockwood: also think as a traveler, I can't go to somewhere else and enforce my culture. No. No. No. Yeah. I I I have to go there and learn their culture first and then help them find out more about me while I'm there. I can't go, hang on a minute. You insult me because I'm I'm a guest in your country. I have to understand your culture first until I can tell you about my culture. I think there's a meeting of minds there. Indeed. I mean, when in Rome, do do as the Romans do.

Derek Cheshire: You you need to you've got to find out how how people how people eat, sleep, think, dance, drink, whatever, and and then and then explore that. Once you can do that, you you're in a position where you can talk to most people about about most things. But all the time you're doing that arm's length dance, then

Joanne Lockwood: Or standing at the bar drinking and not joining in. Yeah. I

Derek Cheshire: Joanne. I I I never I never not join in, but you you do wonder sometimes when people give you a strange Lockwood it's only a week later, you find out why. And it's, you know, because of something you've done, something you've said. I mean, particularly in some of the some of the Asian countries, you you look at somebody the wrong I mean, Thailand and places like that. You look at somebody the wrong way, say the wrong thing. So easy. One moment, the king's a living god. Now he's not so much of a living living god. Yeah. No. There are some

Joanne Lockwood: yeah that's the culture intelligence part is it's trying to understand about other cultures and knowing how to do that, be that inquisitive and not not go with this forthright pushiness all the time as often we do all western and western attitudes. So I'm dying to ask you about your your coffee sniffing abilities. How do you how do you how can you find the nearest coffee show? You just walk just head north to be hit 1 or No. No. Wait. I mean, to to to be honest, I'm

Derek Cheshire: not I'm not like a sort of coffee diviner. I can't but I, for a long time, when my wife was working away from home, I was I I I I went I went with a key to company, worked in the hotels or coffee shops. So I used because you can't you can't stay in a hotel all day apart from the fact they want to service the room. So I was I I tell you what, I'll find a Coster or if I Starbucks, whatever it happens to be, to go and sit with my laptop. And it started off, I guess, look it up on satnav, go find it. But there there afterwards, you you just seem to get used to what the places where coffee shops are going to be. I mean, if you're always stuck, there's always gonna be one at a retail park. There always is. But where where are these gonna be? Certain places on the high street, in in town centers, you just just seem to be able to find them. It it's it's it's natural. I I can't put my finger on it. It's very good

Joanne Lockwood: center because we're my wife and I were in the West Country for, holiday early September, and we were wandering around Dartmouth. And we got out of the car, we parked, we thought, oh, let's just nip into this pub and grab a coffee or have a quick bite to eat. And we sat down and thought, oh, here we are, Wetherspoons. The first pub we found is like Wetherspoons. And you say that these places are put in these convenient places where the first thing you find is that place, isn't it? It's not accident. It's kind of deliberate planning. No. They've they've they've done their research. They know exactly who's

Derek Cheshire: gonna pass by, what they need to offer to to to attract you. It's, the from the car park. Yeah. Out

Joanne Lockwood: the town center car park on route to the main shops, they know exactly that path, what the footfall's gonna be. And it's like, of course no wonder I end up in a Witherspoon's more often or there's coffee, Costa or a cafe near or something you you just know that they're going to be in the right place. Yeah. I I I remember the beginning part of the year, end

Derek Cheshire: of last year, we spent a lot of time in Maidstone, and you park in the car park, walk up the street, and you will pass Pizza Express, Bill's, all all of those places. You you just pass them. I mean, you're gonna get hooked. You're gonna you're gonna you're gonna get sucked in. So

Joanne Lockwood: But the frustration is if you wanna try somewhere more artisan or different, you've gotta go past all of those first then hunt down the back streets, don't you? You you do. You do. But but, yes, you you you

Derek Cheshire: Joanne you can find them. You just know where to look or where not to look. The artisan places, they're they're not far they're not far away. They just can't afford the high street rents and rates some sometimes. But, yeah, they're they're not too difficult to find. They're actually they're it's often good to head for student land to find those places. Jo if it is a place with a university or 2 not far just around the corner, you will you will find them.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I often find anywhere with cobbles or very un you know, that old style paving Yeah. Is always a place where you're gonna find the art center and stuff because the the modern chains, that they they don't like to go into those places that are kind of bad pavement. So they they wanna stitch the the the central bit, the easy bit. Yeah. Actually, to to to run the risk of,

Derek Cheshire: annoying annoying some some people who, some some disabled people. I think they, in the past, have deliberately gone for those, not because they want to keep disabled people away, but because it's it's it's probably easier for them to open a small coffee shop and have disabled access than it is to open a great big Starbucks to make that all singing or dancing for disabled access in a small cobbled street. You will not find Starbucks or Costa there. You'll find Starbucks around the corner on the main street where it's easy to lower the curbs and not have steps. And, and and also they tend to have lots of upstairs space. So I think I think it's something to some some extent, they they use the unwanted space. And if they didn't use it, then that would be an empty space in our towns and cities, which which which which is which is good. But it has meant that our coffee shops, though, are taking over our retail parks. And then there's Costas cost us everywhere. Even petrol stations are full of cost us now. Oh, they are. Yeah. That's right.

Joanne Lockwood: You got your self-service machines, everything. Yeah. It's it is. I remember I remember the discussion, you probably remember them in the nineties and the turn of the century, where we were talking about this trying to turn Britain into a cafe culture, trying to move people out of this drinking habit and getting into coffee shops like the French. And now suddenly we're overrun with with coffee shops and those sort of places and all the pubs are shutting aren't they Jo we have changed our culture completely in in less than a generation. But the the French the French cafe

Derek Cheshire: combines the best best of both worlds, the coffee shop and the pub. If you sit on a pavement in France outside a outside a cafe, that cafe will serve, glasses of beer. It will serve aperitif. It'll serve your. It'll serve coffee and pastries and things. And I think when pea people were envisaged, I I don't I don't when people promoted the cafe culture here, I don't know what they actually envisaged, but I don't think it's what we've got now. I don't cafe cafes and coffee shops are are subtly different, and cafes are places generally where you can spend a lot more time at once you Yes. Like an all day drop in. It's it's it's playing chess

Joanne Lockwood: or Domino's or something. You can go there to meet your friends for the day with it. Yeah. You can have a have a cup of coffee late morning. Oh,

Derek Cheshire: it's lunchtime. Shall we have some lunch? And you you can be there for hours. And those are the sorts of things that we should have maybe put also put in some of our town centers rather than rather than I mean, I can think of where I where we go when we go up up to Scotland to visit my wife's parents. You know, where you have a street that goes straight through, People build a bypass and that's and and the town center dies. And the one thing that would have helped, for instance, in that case, is pedestrianizing the middle because you can drive right around it anyway. But instead of just putting coffee shops, have cafes, coffee, and things that keep people in. I mean, a lot a lot of the shopping malls have actually got very good at this. They their places aren't just that's why they have food courts, so that you have Costa. You have, pizza places. You have, TGI Fridays. You you have, Carluchos or or whatever. You have all these things together, and it keeps people there for a for a long period of time. So

Joanne Lockwood: Sorry. We're in sort of COVID world, aren't we? I mean, there's there's opportunities here because pubs are closing everywhere, coffee shops themselves struggling because they're not getting a footfall, Retail is on its knees. We hear about, the Arcadia Group just the other day, potentially even today has gone into. At the time this podcast recording, we're not sure, but we never know. We're recording on the day we're supposed to hear. So Yeah. So yeah, there's an opportunity now to I I think towns and city councils are now looking at how they regenerate post COVID to bring people back in that they're looking to bring more hybrid accommodation and retail, a mix rather than before. It's been kind of a combination and the outskirts all of the shops are set or the commerce is kind of centralized but now that that that we've got all this space, how can what can we do with that debentures? What can we do with that knight and leave? What can we do with that space? And maybe flats or a combination is the way to Jo. Yeah. And then making sure there is places to socialize within that. Otherwise, we end up with these big vacuums again. Yeah. A lot of

Derek Cheshire: places now, what they're doing is the the the the ground level space is still shop space. But the what, I I know something in Sheffield, we've got some big shops with that are actually 3 floors. So you've got 2 other floors. It's ripe for turning into flats. Jo you can actually keep people in the cities to keep keep some of the life there. And peep people do do love the non chain shops that we have, but sometimes these places are just far too far too convenient. And I have sympathy with the small shopkeepers, but I think when I think just complaining about the fact that, you know, Tescos or Primark is down the road is is not gonna help. They're gonna still gonna stay there. So what can you do that's gonna attract these people that are now moving in? These people don't necessarily want Primark Fashion. You know, they they might want some, artisan manufactured jewelry or or whatever it happens to be, locally made soap, whatever whatever it happens to be, there is a there is a place for it. And there's a place That's the city hope. And COVID will be a catalyst

Joanne Lockwood: for reinvention in this sort of area, you know, where people can be artisans. They can start their own boutiques. And some of the some of these big chains, we've we've now realized that they're unsustainable in the modern world. You just buy online. But you can't buy craft and artisan stuff online so easy. Okay, they do sell online. But you really don't want to try that piece of jewelry on. You really wanna try that dress on that is not necessarily traditional sizes. You need to go and try it on, don't you? Yeah. I can imagine that

Derek Cheshire: bespoke tailoring is in the right in the in certain parts of the world is probably or even in certain parts of the country is doing very well because you need you need quality, and it's got to be seen. It's got to be felt. It's got to be touched. So that's one of the one of the things I I try talking to people about is because as as a speaker, you know what happened as soon as as soon as, COVID hit us. People people say, what do I do? I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll get I'll get a Zoom license, and I'll deliver this stuff on Zoom was exactly what they said. And people would and still are. The university lecturers are still doing that. Yes. But they've got a cap 2 audience. But that's what people did. Everybody did it for a while. Other people have moved on, done other things, which which is great. But my my question to people is, yes, everybody's doing this. You've gotta be different. So how different is your different? What's the what is the difference that sets you apart? What is the extra value? How is it different from, you know, Giant's offering, what what she does? What where where's where's the value? How does it help you? Or or do you just like it because it's soft and cuddly or you like hot chocolate, whatever it happens to be? Where where is this difference? So that's that's that's one of the two things that I I try and talk about is how to make your different different. But as you alluded to before, how how do you how do you get off the track before you can even see whether the train's coming or not? And that's something we've got to got to be used to as well.

Joanne Lockwood: But Jo you think a lot of this having to be different comes from the fact that we we try and describe ourselves in the language of this sameness. You know, what do I do? Well, I'm I'm like other DNI professionals. I I speak about this. So So immediately, I have to tell you that I'm the same, but I'm different being the same. Jo maybe we start by saying, well, I'm not like anybody else. I'm not, yeah, I don't talk about whatever they talk about, I have my own views and ideas, I've written my own book or whatever I do because otherwise we start by being another coffee shop. We're not another coffee shop. We're we're we're a meeting place. Oh, would you people just come in and meet, and they can get up a coffee, they have a beer, they can socialize.

Derek Cheshire: Indeed. That's it's far easier to demonstrate than it is to describe. Jo, yeah, if somebody says, oh, go go go down to I don't know. I can't think of a good name for a coffee shop. I'm looking at my pucker pad. So may may may yes. May may maybe we've got the pucker pad. What's that? Come along and come along and have a go. You know? Well, it's it's pukka. Maybe maybe we do maybe we do some Indian cuisine. Maybe we don't. It's a pad, so it's more like home. It's great. So a place where you can relax and have food. Well, if you wanna call it that, but that's not what we call it. But if you if you create some interest but if somebody says, oh, I've just opened this boutique coffee restaurant y place, Well That's a restaurant. That's an office shop. Okay. There's one there's one down the road, and and that and that and that is that is the problem. That's why I think when people started going networking and things, people say, what and what do you do? You would say, when you said I do this, it's that bit that everybody tells you to be different. But then people say, well, what do you mean? It's like No. I I inspire people to make more money or whatever.

Joanne Lockwood: It's like, okay. You're an accountant. I do this, do that. Okay. You're one of those. As someone you see on LinkedIn, they're kind of Jo disrespect to to the people who promote this kind of BNI attitude to networking, but it's almost like it it it doesn't tell you anything, but you think you're different. And I think I often just find them that they could they could be a bit kind of nondescript. Yeah. It can it can help

Derek Cheshire: it can help create a hook. I mean, I I I came across an accountant. And, basically, they didn't wander off wander on for hours. They just said, I help you save or, no, I help you pay less tax. Everybody in the room got that. That that was a person who would attract a whole load of business cards. Yes. That's a good hook. That's a good

Joanne Lockwood: hook. That is a that is a that is a that is a good hook. Yeah. So something like that. But, yeah, I

Derek Cheshire: I help people to make best use of their money and get their tax returns in on time. Yeah. You're an accountant. So what? Yeah. But it's it's I think,

Joanne Lockwood: yeah, it's about differentiating yourself in a very authentic way as well so people understand it. That's that's half the battle, isn't it? Yeah. Some of them they come across a bit kind of formulaic. I I just took them to oh, you've been to local networking meetings for other small businesses and that's how you come across. But maybe You could tell people who work for corporate companies, they actually say, what is it? What do you do? Well, I do this. I do this. I do this. And you could tell them to be a corporate as someone who's selling because just on the LinkedIn profile, it it's it's so obvious. Yeah. As a small small business,

Derek Cheshire: there is there is the temptation, should we say, to try all things to all I I I'm never using the term, but I shouldn't have done that. All things to all people, should we say. And it's it's it's just it's just impossible, really. Find out all the different places you could sell, do things for, and and and and as the Americans say, choose your niche.

Joanne Lockwood: But it is. It's it's kind of sometimes you you have to not be all things to all people. You have to be a big thing to 1 person or a big thing to 2 people. And I think, yeah, if you're gonna do best selling, yes, sell cheaper, sell lots. Yeah. Or you sell expensive, sell a few. Yeah. That's the 2 models, really, aren't they? Yeah. Or Yeah. Yeah. Be be primark or be I don't

Derek Cheshire: know. I can't think of somebody that sells really expensive jewelry, but, yeah, some something like that where you you sell 2 pieces a week. That that's fine. That's all you need to do. Or do you have to sell, or or Is that is that Arcadia? No. No. That no. It's not. I I can think of a a place. In fact, there's a place called it's called, what's it called now? Tiago in Sheffield. They do almost exclusively wedding jewelry. The they're only open Tuesday to Saturday, and they're not open all day. But you drive past and their window looks fantastic, and they just specialize, they make it there and then. You go in. You get exactly what you want. So they don't need to they they they don't need to be to follow the Ratna Ratna model or or anything else like that. They they know what they do, and they they are well known for it. So that that's what that's what you want to do. Yeah. That's right. And I I

Joanne Lockwood: think you you just have to wherever you are, be it. I think that's the key thing, isn't it? And don't don't keep flipping or flopping or trying to be more than you can be. Jo many people try to over over deliver on outside of their core expertise. Well

Derek Cheshire: and you and you also have a lot to be honest, you also get told a lot by other people. If you listen too much to other people, there are certain lots of groups on Facebook, for instance, where if you ask for marketing or branding advice, you will be told, oh, you should do this. You should have a photo done this way, these colors, and all the rest of it. I I must admit, I I I got I I got particularly confused at one point. And I actually had a really nice chat with a with a with a proper branding guy who just said, look just just be you. You know, if you don't want to wear a suit, don't wear a suit. If you want to wear bright yellow, wear bright yellow. Otherwise, it'll it'll, it you'll just come on across as not being authentic. So

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. If you look uncomfortable or you you don't sound right, then, yeah, you're better off just being being a good version of you is is is the best answer on that. Yep. We start we start this conversation by talking about your soup of life and, we we had a quick chat before we started talking about your your soup. Oh, yes. How how you describe the universe. And we can't get to the end, which we're coming to in in a minute, without talking about the soup. What is the soup all about? The soup is it's it's really a model I

Derek Cheshire: I I use for for organizations. It Joanne apply it applies to society as well. But what I was was trying to get away from was this idea of hierarchies. We we don't actually need hierarchies. Hierarchies are there purely for some people to feel good about themselves or people in the world of management in very big quotes not being they come across this idea of spans of control. We must have more than 6 people reporting to it. This is no. That's where it all came from. So it it just begets a hierarchy. There's no real reason other other other than other than that you're told that it's not a good idea have a flat organization. And when people get promoted or either they get more money or they think they're more important, so they have more knowledge or more experience or whatever, it creates a hierarchy, and we we don't need it. So I my idea is to have a model that's if you think of soup and croutons, and that's it, there's a little bit of hierarchy there, but not much. The soup is literally the culture. So in an organization, it's organizational culture. If it's society, it's just the culture in society. And these are these are all the organic cultures that just grow. They're, you know, they're not things that people say this is how it will be. That's espoused or corporate culture. So it's just the stuff that grows. We are the croutons. We float about in this. And our our worth is or should be measured by what we know, the connections we make, the the the the the trust networks as well, the people the people that trust you, the people that you trust. These are all very they're they're one to many interpersonal things. So the the structure chart, if you like, for either society or a company should be something like a social media map. So the people at these, the the the these points where all these things converge, they they are people Jump the junctures. Jump jump jump jump jump. Yeah. Jump jump. Yeah. Jo so everybody's connected in different ways via knowledge, experience, trust, whatever, advice. And you get, I wouldn't say promoted, but you get rewarded according to your your your, I would say, worth, not monetary worth, but value. So Output. Yeah. Contribution. Yeah. Your your your contribution. In in in so in some cases, in in charities or civil service or companies, there is a need for people to manage certain things. So, yes, there'll be really good professional managers to manage things. But the people who would normally get promoted or try and be, try and go up the greasy pole for want of a better description doesn't need to do that. If they're happy doing what they do with the knowledge they have I mean, the prime example I mean, I've worked worked in in technology for a number of years. People get themselves promoted to managing director when, really, they're absolutely a software engineers. They should never be the managing director of a company. So it it it would it would it would stop that. People can people can stay where they're happiest and contribute according to what they want to. They're the most use the things that they're most used at, the things that they enjoy doing with the people they enjoy doing it with. And the spin off of that is what it actually does is it creates globalization of a different sort because at the moment, we're everybody's very anti globalization because they think about exploiting third world countries, about offshoring, all the rest of it. What it actually does is it globalizes globalizes knowledge and creativity. So these sorts of companies, these sorts of organizations, universities can can actually operate globally. So it's a it's a different sort of globalization, and, hopefully, it's a place where people are much happier working or or or living in. So we're all we're all croutons in soup. We all everybody has a part to play is is is the gist of the simple version of it. So I can see I can see the I can I can see I can hear the audience all going, not sure about that?

Joanne Lockwood: Well, it's not too dissimilar to some of the ways I talk. I when I talk about to define the difference between diversity and inclusion. So I often talk about diversity as being the mix, it's the ingredients for the cake. Whereas inclusion is the emulsifier, it's the eggs, it's the butter that sticks the cake together and makes it a cake. Because without the the emulsifying element, the bits are just floating around. It's not a cake. Indeed. So your your your croutons are the people that make the diversity, and the soup is kind of the inclusion that holds everyone together and gives people a a kind of a world to exist in. Yep. And and the best the best thing about about that

Derek Cheshire: all that is people say, oh, you can only manage what you can measure. And I say, yeah. Fine. You can measure it all. Because it's people talk about measuring innovation, oh, no. Key performance indicators. No. That just measures the output, just measures how many widgets drop off your production line. It doesn't doesn't measure innovation. If innovation is people being creative, people sharing ideas, creating knowledge, whatever, that's what we want. So all this the the the bit these ambiguous bits of the soup, because they depend on behaviors and attitudes, They can actually be measured. We've been surveying these things for ages. I mean, how many attitudes soup surveys have we have we all come across? They just have to be very carefully crafted but you can do it. Of course. You're selling. I talked about the same with

Joanne Lockwood: diversity initiatives that you can it's not about quotas. It's about direction of travel. You know, you're looking to become more gender diverse or more racially represented, you can measure that. How you get there it's into it's it depends on the organization. But, yeah, you can measure this without quotas. But Indeed. I I I always doing it. Yeah. I I I call it innovation

Derek Cheshire: potential. It's a bit like a bit like the voltage in a battery. If the greater the voltage, the, you know, the more light bulbs you can or toys you can power or whatever. It's it's exactly like that. It's just the the energy, if you like, that's waiting to be unleashed. And the more of it more of it there is, the better it can be. And that's

Joanne Lockwood: that's so true. And the higher the voltage, the more it attracts, doesn't it? Because, actually, we want to attract people into organizations, keep hold of them, motivate them, empower them without this flat structure that you talked about. So with so with this flat structure, without having these layers, because layers definitely create biases, they create clicks, and and destroy trust. They actually

Derek Cheshire: they actually create they actually create well, one of the ways they create biases is because all of all of these layers in in the hierarchy, when when you start managing lots of people, and I use the term manage loosely. I mean, you think of a football manager. The football manager does not doesn't stand on on on the on the touch line and and say, oh, excuse me. Excuse me, Jim. Move up the right wing a little bit. Move move here a little bit. He might shout at the old player, but that's not the way they do it. They see patterns. They want they want the defense to move like this. They want the midfield to move like and that's the way we do it. We we we have to use biases and patterns to to actually cope with, very large concepts. And the more you have, the more you have to do it. So the person at the top of an organization often has no clue what the people at the bottom do, simply because they they can't cope with it. Their brains would explode. So, it it just incur I mean, whether it's deliberate or not, it just encourages bias and and patterns subconsciously. Definitely.

Joanne Lockwood: Definitely. Well, on that note, let's leave our audience to ponder that thought. Thanks, Derek. I mean, we've been going for an hour since I have 5 minutes. This is a really deep, great conversation. So anyone who's listening, I'm sure you'll agree also there's lots to take inspiration from there. How can people get in touch with you? What's the best way to find you on? They

Derek Cheshire: can find me absolutely anywhere. They can they can look me up on LinkedIn. They can go to www.derekcheshire.com. There's plenty of ways to find me there. Brilliant.

Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. Do you have a book or anything? No book?

Derek Cheshire: I I I do. I I have I only have the one. It's called quick I it's called Creativity in action, available from all good bookstores and Amazon, of course.

Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I'm sure people are listening in. They wanna get get in contact with you. They'll find you on LinkedIn, go to your website. So a huge thank you for anyone who's listened today. Thank you for tuning in. Please do subscribe to keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends. Tell your colleagues. Jo I have a number of exciting guests lined up I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next weeks months. And don't forget, if you'd like to be a guest, please let me know. I'd also welcome any feedback or suggestions you may have on how we can improve future shows. Please email me at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.