---
title: "Reducing your fear and anxiety"
episode: 23
date: 2021-01-07
guest: "Mark Wingfield"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/23-reducing-your-fear-and-anxiety
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-023/audio.mp3
---

# Reducing your fear and anxiety

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Mark Wingfield to explore why fear and anxiety are so universal, and how they can limit people’s ability to show up fully and reach their potential. Mark shares practical approaches he uses in his work, including calming techniques for when people feel triggered, and structured ways to respond to intimidation, bullying, and “banter” that crosses the line. They discuss how discrimination and microaggressions can fuel anxiety, why it can feel risky to speak up, and how timing, setting, and organisational processes (like HR routes and the Equality Act) affect what people can do next. The conversation also looks at modern pressures such as social media and cyberbullying, and includes examples from schools and workplace environments. Joanne shares personal experiences of online abuse after her transition and reflects on the emotional impact of backlash and trolling. Finally, Mark explains elements of his training and trauma-informed practice, including role-play methods designed to prepare people for difficult scenarios, and heart rate variability control to help people regain access to clear thinking under stress.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Everyone has fears and anxieties, differentiating hugely.
- 09:22 — School bullying experiences, hyper aware of prejudice.
- 10:59 — Backlash and trolling after writing about language.
- 21:16 — Disruptive behaviour at event addressed with confidence.
- 27:04 — Workplace discrimination and bullying are prevalent issues.
- 32:20 — Buffet trolley incident leads to harassment.
- 35:45 — Reported unacceptable behaviour, company failed to act.
- 39:12 — Training programme empowers people to assert boundaries.
- 47:27 — Using racist language in training for benefit.
- 54:14 — Challenging casual sexism in the workplace effectively.
- 56:28 — Quickly refocus from fight or flight response.
- 01:00:48 — Controlling heart rate variability with age.
- 01:06:04 — Encouraging listeners to subscribe and engage further.

## Key takeaways

- Exploring the impact of age on HRV and how it relates to personal feelings of relaxation or stress.
- The role of the mind in shaping our physiological responses and the transformative power of mental techniques.
- Advantages of role-play training for invoking real emotional responses to prepare for confrontational encounters.
- Insights into workshops aimed at providing the tools to mitigate fear and anxiety, including a special listener discount.
- Strategies for addressing inappropriate behavior and offensive language in the workplace to foster a more inclusive environment.
- The reality of workplace dynamics, where hierarchies can influence the confidence to challenge discrimination.
- How early-life experiences and societal norms shape our responses to bullying and violence, shaping how we react and adapt in adulthood.

## FAQs

### What is heart rate variability (HRV), and how does it relate to fear and anxiety?

Heart rate variability (HRV) is a measure of the variation in time between each heartbeat, which is controlled by the autonomic nervous system. It's an indicator of the body's stress and relaxation responses. Mark Wingfield shared that HRV can reflect our level of fear and anxiety and that learning to control it through various exercises can be beneficial for reducing these emotions.

### Why might someone have a low HRV even if they feel relaxed?

Mark Wingfield points out that factors such as age and health can influence HRV. It's possible to feel relaxed but still have a low HRV due to underlying physiological factors that are independent of momentary feelings of relaxation.

### How can role-play training help in managing fear and anxiety in confrontational situations?

Mark Wingfield elaborates that role-play training can evoke real emotions and feelings in controlled circumstances, allowing individuals to practice and learn how to manage their responses to confrontation and aggression, like using assertiveness and other de-escalation techniques.

### What kind of online workshops does Mark Wingfield offer for reducing fear and anxiety?

Mark offers online workshops that focus on practical techniques to control HRV and manage fear and anxiety, tailored to various issues such as discrimination, bullying, or maltreatment. Listeners can avail of a 10% discount by using a specific code provided during the episode.

### How can offensive language and behaviour be addressed in the workplace to prevent harm?

Mark Wingfield asserts the importance of open and honest communication. It's crucial to address inappropriate conduct promptly and appropriately, taking into account the context and the culture within the organisation.

### What is the impact of discrimination and bullying at work?

Discrimination and bullying can be pervasive in the workplace and negatively affect women, black people, and other minorities. Such behaviour can create a hostile environment which can make it difficult for victims to speak out, particularly if the organisational culture favours those in power.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I am your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, Belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line tojo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot co dot uk. You better catch up with all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify and their usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 23 with the Bites, Belonging Your Fear and Anxiety. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Mark Wingfield. Mark describes himself as someone who empowers individuals by giving them hugely practical techniques to handle whatever life may throw at them. And when I asked Mark to describe his superpower, he said my empathy. So hello, Mark. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you very much

Mark Wingfield: indeed. It's great to be here. So tell me, why do you feel reducing your fear and anxiety is important? What does that

Joanne Lockwood: mean to you? I think it's so universal

Mark Wingfield: that if you don't manage to conquer fears and anxiety, how on earth are you gonna be able to achieve your potential? There are so many things that can hold people back and not allow them to perform to their best. And with all the richness that we have in our society, there are people that I work with who are discriminated against, who are bullied, who are maltreated in some way, or ignored for however they turn up. But it's my privilege to actually help empower them to deal with whatever they have to go through, acknowledge any fears and anxiety they may have, and give them some techniques that will allow them to deal with it appropriately, effectively, and really achieve a 100% of what they're capable of achieving.

Joanne Lockwood: In the D&I circle, I often hear people talk about bringing their whole self to work. And what you've just said there is really quite powerful because you say holding back, walking away. But we talk about getting people to bring this their whole self to work. And I often say this, it's very easy for you to say, not necessarily SEE easy for me to do, the more typical you are, the less the stress you have in your life, the easier it is to be yourself, isn't it? But as soon as you've got something that's hidden within you, there's this anxiety that builds and this fear of being discovered almost, isn't it? Yes.

Mark Wingfield: And I think some of that is you will appear different for whatever reason, whether it's the color of your skin or whether it's the way you dress or how you sound, how you come across in some other way, whether it's a disability or whatever it might be. And people form their own impressions immediately. They and you're aware of that. You know, everybody has unconscious bias of some kind, but some people have overt prejudice discrimination. And dealing with that can be really tough. So I try and just provide something that will work for an individual, and that can go from just simply communication techniques to staying calm when you're terrified or just a little bit nervous. Or if this is based on trauma, I work as a trauma therapist to take away the emotional context jo that people can actually function without worrying about how they feel about it. They just do what they need to do. So Bites it's kind of a a colorful array of things I've I try and bring to the party. Does it affect younger people

Joanne Lockwood: more than older people, women more than men, white people less than not white people, straight people less than not straight people or is it you can't be that clear cut? I I don't think you can be that clear cut. I think that

Mark Wingfield: everybody, whatever shape or form or color or however they show up, We all have our own fears and anxieties, so no nobody's without fear and anxiety for whatever reason, but the grades of that and the type of fear and anxiety will obviously differ hugely. And I think if you talk about young people, it's it's a tough time growing up, isn't it? So it's also a fantastic, exuberant time and a fun time, and you got all your health, hopefully, and your your full physical abilities, hopefully, or you have my might have some kind of limitations. But in those formative years, they will dictate so much for the rest of your life. And there are all sorts of different studies that I'm sure you're aware of as many, if not more, as as I that, you know, for example, by the age of 8, you're more or less there. That's kind of you. And it's it's detail that's gonna be layered on top of that, but your the fundamental who you are is kind of by the age of 8. Now there's there's lots of different studies, and there'll be people that disagree with that comment. But, certainly, all what we do know is that those formative years are absolutely crucial. And if something happens to you in those formative years that's negative, then that can stay with you and be a real drawback for the rest of your life unless you can do something about it.

Joanne Lockwood: Do you think that the modern world you know whether that's online gaming, social media, the selfie culture, increases the anxieties that people may have or introduces new new threats into people's lives? Yes. I do. And I'm

Mark Wingfield: thinking one very specific response that, I've been I've been mulling over the a comment that's often asked of me. People often ask me, do you think nowadays we're more aggressive and violent towards people than we used to be? And I'm not sure that's, well, go back 13 years, 14 years when I first started my business. I used to say, I don't think jo, really. I'm not too sure about that. I think it's just a different type of aggression and violence. But now with the age of modern technology and this instant culture that we have, instant gratification, you know, you pick up your phone and you have the answer to generally everything in some kind of form, whether it's right or wrong, but you'll get a you'll get a response. You can put it into Google or whatever your preferred search engine is and find out something. And because people are so used to that, further down the road and they can access, all sorts of games and things that require action and response. We have instant you know, you go onto the London tube nowadays, and we have a little card, the Oyster card, and it'll let you through with your payment. Everything goes smoothly like that. If you go onto the Internet, you can pay immediately for something. Everything is instant or a lot of things are now instant. And when suddenly things aren't at that pace or your expectation that it will be is now unsatisfied, that's when you get a whole host of new issues, that perhaps weren't there before because the speed of things nowadays is so fast. And that permeates into so many different other areas. You know, if you only look at social media, I I work in schools, for example, work with young children, young adults on bullying. And with all the social media that there is now, things like Snapchat where you can make some comment and it disappears unless somebody's taking a screen grab of it, That has a whole host of new challenges that weren't there before. It's Belonging, but in a slightly Diversity form. Jo when I was first initially talking about bullying in schools, it was very much face to face techniques, how to deal with bullies. But as time has gone on, people have been asking increasingly about cyberbullying tactics and how you can prevent and protect from a a technology point of view. You still need the face to face stuff, but it's it's been I I've noticed it over the years that Bites certainly moved more into a technological side of things. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I remember at school, I I would I would definitely say I was excessively bullied, but I I did experience some minor where you shoulder barge into you occasionally or the in crowd would exclude you or make you feel uncomfortable, more passive intimidation if that makes sense or kind of the lockwood looks and the potential threat of something happening rather than the actual. There was always the kind of that that kind of implication that something might happen which is psychological rather than physical which is I've never I've not Belonging trauma of it but I suppose I've become kind of hyper aware of bullying since I transitioned myself because I'm hyper aware that I polarize the views of certain people and there are people in this country and around the world that have a kind of an anti or a gender critical view of the world where trans people are seen as being a threat to that view. And I have suffered in some ways stalking and and sort of cyber commenting on posts on LinkedIn, Instagram, I've been the target of comments on newspaper chat comments on the newspaper sites because I appeared in the Sunday Times and the Daily Mail and the Mirror, I think about that a few years ago and some of the comments beneath that. I also took Bites a documentary online, to a channel for documentary. Mhmm. And to see the some of the comments on the Facebook post about that and people wading in. And I just also just started an article, a monthly column with the, the Scottish Herald. Mhmm. And last month, I last one I did was about language, I talked about gendered language and all various other things and this seems to have rattled the cage of somebody who's gender critical and suddenly it's I I end up with all this trolling, they stalked me on Inclusion, they and a whole load of people found me on Linkedin, a whole load of people found me on Twitter, taking the article completely out of context and putting their own their own thread on this which is kind of hijacking and it wasn't directly targeted at me but I suddenly realized that I was now vulnerable again and raised my head above the parapet where people were gonna, you know, I now became a target or something jo yeah, it's very interesting and I'm now thinking that next article I'm writing in December and almost in the back of my mind, I'm worried again about what the the backlash may be was but the first three I wrote I had I had Joanne of that thought was in my head, I was writing for my own lived experience Bites now I'm thinking I've got to double think what I'm saying and that- this is the problem, isn't it? I'm now in this zone where I've got to worry about it. Oh, well, I I could help you with that.

Mark Wingfield: No. I'm terribly sorry, Ken. Because, I mean, when when you first started talking about schools and that's something I I hear about a lot, but also have experienced myself because, unfortunately, I wasn't badly bullied any more than other people at school. But I think it it happens to probably most people at some point in some shape or form, and I was no exception. And I can remember the jostling and the exclusion and the, I mean, I I even talk about something when when I speak about bullying. I talk about, jungle treatment, which is, people circling me, wanting to knock me down, and feed grass in my mouth. That's the shortened version. And I didn't let it happen. I'd seen it happen to other people, and I I SEE techniques very crudely, that came instinctively, but stopped people doing anything. And, so it's this a more refined technique that I talk to people about. But when you're talking about transitioning and and talking about that, and you talk about various newspapers and, how you're concerned about what's gonna happen next and how it's gonna affect you, I think you're doing absolutely the right thing because these things need to be talked about and addressed. But from a personal perspective, something I do as a a stronger therapist could help you take away that that emotional, concern and and enable you to write without thinking too much about the the emotion. You still need to think about the consequences and that that will still be there. But if you can take out the emotion element, you're probably right at a better pace, I would suggest.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think I'm more likely to just proofread it a second time rather than with just the extra lens on it. I'm a pretty resilient person and this hasn't I haven't internalized this but it just woke me up to the fact that there are I'm not as safe as I was, if you like, or I'm more likely to be. But then if we look at the press, whatever I wrote about, someone's got to make a comment about it that's that's what people do they troll these these press sites and they they become keyboard warriors, they hide behind anonymity of Twitter and things jo I think it just reminded me that this went on because I often live a very privileged life of not caring or not thinking and it just it was just kind of like a knock on the door going, don't forget about me sort of thing. I thought, oh, yeah. You're still there. Okay. Yep. Mhmm. Now you're there. And and it's worth thinking also that there will be a lot of people

Mark Wingfield: out there who you're you're a resilient person. I'm a pretty resilient person, But there are other people out there who might be in a similar situation as us who aren't as resilient. And, I won't I won't mention the details, but something happened recently, that I I was appalled at. Somebody was, not encouraged. Let's just put it like that. Was not encouraged in an environment which is supposed to be extremely encouraging. And, I I privately messaged the person that had been affected and, and supported them, overtly on on this, this it happened to be a Facebook chat. And I was just appalled they'd been treated in that way. And this individual is, again, quite resilient, but was quite upset by the comments that Happen been made, which were unthinking and, and not appropriate to the environment that they were made in. So it's it can happen in all sorts of different environments, and, it's worth thinking that there are people that will react differently to you. And

Joanne Lockwood: Listen, I talk about in the workplace type environment when we talk about this banter and this humor that sometimes we have in the workplace where one person thinks it's kind of jovial and funny whereas actually the impact of that on others is demeaning, it reinforces stereotypes, or in some cases, it's just another microaggression that's causing them to feel less worthy about themselves, isn't it? And Panther is but you always get the pushback but it's only a bit of fun, it's only we're trying to make the workplace too sanitised and too SEE is people push back, don't they, on this banter? So how do you address that? Yeah. I I think a lot of the time,

Mark Wingfield: people don't intend to to hurt or insult. They think they're being funny. They think they're being sociable. That's that's being positive about it. And you can talk to those people. And and if they find out that they are inadvertently causing distress or upsetting somebody, then they'll be mortified and and probably apologize and and stop doing it. And maybe be over careful. That might be the unintended consequence, next time. But there are those people that will be doing it on purpose, and that's why we have the Equality Act. And that's why we have mechanisms in place for protected elements within the Equality Act to make sure that people, do get some kind of, redress if they need to. But I I think there there are extreme examples. I remember going to a seminar years ago, and it was all about employment law. And, they were talking about employee handbooks, and it's a good idea to have all your discrimination policies and all the rest of it in an employee handbook, of course. And an example is given about, a business owner who hated swearing for things. He was very religious person and and didn't like any swearing whatsoever. And, he'd been taken to industrial tribunal for sacking somebody who'd sworn at work. So his adviser told him, right. Okay. You need to put every single word that you find offensive in your employee handbook and say if you say these words on-site, you will be dismissed. That's what SEE did. So that's taking it to an extreme. I think that, you know, people do, try and have banter, But it's it's a fine line between upsetting somebody. And if you are on the receiving end of it and you are upset, you need to tell somebody about Bites, and don't keep it to yourself. Otherwise, it's either Joanne continue because they don't intend to and you've not said anything, or it's gonna continue because they find that, yeah, you're hurt, and I'm gonna make make sure you keep on being hurt, and I'm gonna enjoy it. But once you've actually stood up and said, I don't find what you said amusing, when you say that sort of thing, I feel uncomfortable. And what I'm gonna ask you to do is to not speak to me like that because those particular words are very derogatory. So please, next time, don't use those words or something along those lines. But that's easier said than done. First of all, you got the the personal potential pain or or emotional distress from those words or what's happened or the environment they happened in. Bites, secondly, you've gotta learn how to do it thinking, using all your great emotional intelligence and expertise when you're really upset and your amygdala's doing overtime, which is the emotional center of the brain, and you can't get the words out because your cognitive function isn't working very well. So that's what I help people with. I help them calm down so they can think these things through, have an approach that's gonna work that is neutral hopefully rather than aggressive, assertive certainly, but just pointing out open honest communication. When you said this, I felt like that. So what I'm gonna ask you to do, please, is do this. And, you know, just have a just a a structure to to responding that is is gonna work. And if they say, well, you can f off, you know, then you know where you need to go. You might need to complain, find out what the internal workings are of an employer. A good employer will will have that very clear in whether it's a handbook or any any other guidance. And they will have access to either talk to a manager or to somebody in personnel, HR, whatever whatever it's called, and they can get some redress hopefully before they have to go to a tribunal of some kind or take legal action.

Joanne Lockwood: Since what you're saying about swearing then, I was on a taking part in a webinar or was more of an interactive online meeting. And one of the people who was attending at the meeting, they had a very kind of aggressive posture, they were really leaning into the camera. They were almost like almost like in in the in the frame. Eating the microphone almost.

Mark Wingfield: Well, almost eating the screen rather than the microphone, it was kinda they were really,

Joanne Lockwood: really into this frame. And they were using swear words like punctuation. I I found their whole presence in this, this event completely distracting. I found their their stance, their language Joanne the way they were talking almost like a bullying type stance, I'm Bites almost like posturing and aggressiveness and at the end, there's a kind of a, like, a a a an opportunity for everybody attending sort of give a bit of group feedback and say what they thought. And I and I I just I just looked dead in the camera and said I found this this most of this meeting completely offensive. The language by used by one of the people was, you know, using swear words as punctuation, their stance, and their their their aggression is not the kind of event I want to be part of and I made it quite clear and kind of everybody in the room got I could see everyone else's eyes looking at me and so I just kept my a smile Belonging directly at the camera, I just kept my stance and just I just part myself with a very relaxed with a relaxed face as if to stand up to that bullying behavior, I wasn't gonna walk away from it and a few people after me said well I'm glad someone said something because I found that again that they were finding that being being in their environment uncomfortable with this person Bites then but the the the I was gonna come on to it, you know, what you were saying was it's all very well standing up in that instance but then you've gotta think about whether, a, you're gonna get backed by somebody and supported in that claim, whether there's any gonna be any follow-up victimization, and often people walk away. They they often people who are targets or or of of bullying or intimidation are the people that don't know how to stand up for these opportunities. I appreciate it's exactly where you come in Bites there's so much fear of recrimination, fear of of the bullying getting worse, isn't it? And that this is this is I guess what you do, so what can people do in that situation? Standing up sometimes running away is often the easiest answer, isn't it? Yeah. That I mean, I

Mark Wingfield: I help people across a range of sort of conflict situations, and, you you can choose whether you deal with something there and then. And sometimes it's not appropriate to deal with it there and then because you're you're on the back foot. You haven't got all the information you need need perhaps. You're somehow triggered and not thinking straight. You might be very emotional, and that isn't the best time to give her your best. So picking and choosing your time is really important and place as well because I've I've had instances where things have been said and done, and you need to nip that in the bud. But you don't nip it in the bud in front of other people because they may be your allies or otherwise Belonging on their loyalties or how they interpret or perceive the situation. They're not you. They haven't SEE it the same way as you have and don't have your background experience. That might mean that something is particularly cutting or hurtful or embarrassing or whatever it might be. So maybe having a chat by the the water cooler, the the coffee machine, by the kettle, the 2 of you is the absolutely the best thing to do. But maybe once you've calmed down or walked out into the art of years ago when I went to a particular employer, my boss's boss was really, really winding me up. I actually got up and walked out of the office, not in a rage or anything. I just got up. They didn't know I was doing this at all. I just got up, walked out, and walked around the yard outside, which had, like, lots of bits of metal lying in the yard. And Bites wintertime, and I was frozen, and it just calmed me down and brought back brought me back to reality and how I was gonna deal with it just so I didn't say say or do the wrong thing because I have done it, done that in the past. You know, another manager, another jo. He put me under a lot of pressure, and I just blew up. And it was an open plan office, and it wasn't pretty. So we can really do ourselves a disservice. And being able to be calm in the moment, be able to think, okay. I need to do something different. Pick my pick my time and place and work out what my approach is. You know, work out what's the culture of this organization I'm in. How do they provide support? Do I need to go and talk to somebody in the union? Do I need to go and talk to a colleague? Just let let blow to a friend of mine who will listen. You know, what what's the strategy? Is this a one off? Is it repetitive? Is it part of a pattern of behavior that's being observed across the culture of the company? What's the best way of approaching this? Because if you if you blow up like I've blown up in the past, it won't do you any favors. Or if you just walk away as you've described, Jo, that's not gonna deal with the issue. It may well come back to haunt you. Other people may be subjected to it, and the perpetrator, if that's the right word, will be getting off scot free. And, you know, there there's nobody limiting their behavior, however distasteful and, nasty it might be. So it it's a real judgment thing, and and it's not it's not an easy answer. It's not a quick fix.

Joanne Lockwood: You can Reality is it's quite it is disturbingly prevalent in most in a lot of workplaces where we talk about racism or sexism, it may not be seen as you know playground bullying Bites there's a lot of discrimination, which is also bullying. Yeah. Discrimination is bullying. Victimization is bullying. This still goes on in the workplace, around women being denied opportunities, being treated in a more demeaning way, the language used, reinforcing limiting beliefs, denial of opportunity for women, for black people, for many minorities and it's really difficult in the workplace to stand up because the culture in a lot of organisations is such that the person in power is kind of believed by default, Bites kind of well they're a good fellow, they're a good person, they're they've got a high performing team and of course they're gonna react this way and you know SEE hear, you know, we've got the home secretary setting a poor example of what is SEE to be acceptable workplace behavior, haven't SEE? And, Bites I don't think she is unique in that style of leadership and that's the sad thing in offices, isn't it? There's a lot of language of the workplace bully exists and that's how do people overcome that when they feel the dice and the cards are stacked against them? You know, sometimes leaders in organizations have

Mark Wingfield: have to be told that the culture that they think they're leading is not actually the culture that's being Diversity. Because some people who are absolutely have the right the right instinct and the right approach, nondiscriminatory approach, and allow everybody to flourish to the best of their ability, they may be ignorant to what's going on a few levels down. But if they are aware, then there is legislation in place to say, yeah, actually, no. This isn't right. And, again, a different business I've worked for before was extremely autocratic. And wouldn't say it's particularly discriminate discriminatory, but it was very you either do it like this or you're out. You know, we'll give you loads of opportunity to to do well, but if you fell up, you're out. It was very, very cut and dried. And, I eventually left that organization because it it just didn't suit SEE. And, you know, I didn't think I was being given the opportunities that I was capable of achieving either. So it's a 2 2 pronged thing. I could just about put up with a culture because there were good things about it as well, to be fair. But I wasn't getting on as I wanted to. And I think, people sometimes know and sometimes they're ignorant of what's going on in their own workplace. How many how many senior people bother to go down on the shop floor to find out what's actually happening and how people communicate, and are they the best example of that? I I see this all the time when I when I talk to, organizations who have frontline staff who are being abused, threatened with aggression and violence potentially. And their leaders have no idea what's going on. Or if they do, they just ignore it and think, well, that's what they paid for. That that, you know, that comes with the jo. That's not acceptable. And the duty of care that organizations have to protect their staff, they they should be doing the right thing. They should be going down. They in my opinion, leaders should always be mixing with every level of staff in the organization. And a job of a leader is to lead. And how can you lead if you're in your ivory tower? You can do a certain amount and dictate, but that's not my preferred way of of leading. You know, you gotta involve people. You gotta lead people through, actually physically lead them through and show them how things should be done. I I remember one, train company recently that, I no. I've gotta be careful what I've what I say now because I've worked with you. So there's one train company I know where there was a bit of a commotion at a platform, and he asked all of his staff to go down there, but he didn't go. Asked everybody else to go, but he didn't. And I thought that was really telling. And, yeah, I didn't see that as good leadership at all. There wasn't a good reason why you didn't about a train company. I was,

Joanne Lockwood: I was on the the train for Waterloo heading towards Portsmouth. It's probably about a year ago. I mean, back in the days when we used to be able to travel, you know, there's there's wonderful days where where train travel was was kind of everyday thing, Bites retreat again. So I was on this train out of Waterloo and southwestern trains or whatever they're called these days, it's about 7 o'clock in the evening and I I normally sit right at the back because I get off of Petersfield jo it's best place to get off is right at the back of the Joanne, so get straight on the train Change walk loop. Mhmm. And that's where normally the buffet trolley sets off from, so they park it up in the little, the the whatever you call this sort of gap in that, you know, where the where the doors are. So there's a little the corridor area there by the doors, the festival, I think it's called. Festival. Happen. And, so the the it was a lady who was who was man was manning the trolley that day, and she was kind of parked up ready ready for the train to set off. I think they set off once the train's moving, people SEE down. And then this this this this crowd of office people got on who'd and I suspect they'd already spent the afternoon in the pub, they were all kind of happy and jolly and lively and they kind of clocked the buffet trolley and decided they wanted to carry on drinking there and then jo rather than wait until the trolley is set off and started serving, they're going, oh, come on, cut your service now, cut your service now, and everyone was coming under a bit bit of pressure and eventually they all sat down and one of the protagonists, the leader of this little group stood up in his very, very posh suit and Bites very slurry sort of, jo I was like, oh, come on love, you know, you know, you want a service, we'll be good, we'll behave, you know, just want a couple of glasses of wine and suddenly they put their arm around her and they were hanging on her, calling her love and come on love, you wanna help us like this? And I was sort of sat there thinking this is completely inappropriate, this is completely not acceptable. And I sat there and I pondered, everybody else was ignoring this and I eventually took a photograph of what was going on and started filming a bit of it. And I was getting more and more upset with myself for not saying something. I was almost I was getting to the point where I thought I should Happen stepped in. I should be saying something. This is not acceptable behavior. And if it eventually it stopped and she she passed off the other train, I looked at everybody around me in the car in the carriage saying, did you see that? Did you find that appropriate? And everyone immediately put their newspaper up or their iPad on their phone Lockwood away from me and went, we're not getting involved. I thought, it's incredible. Jo I thought, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna report this to British Transport Police. SEE the numbers flashed up on the overhead board. Yeah. The text number. 6610116. Yeah. So texted that. SEE I've just witnessed a piece of, as assault on a member of staff because it wasn't assault on a member of staff, she didn't invite. It was physical, it was touching and hugging, and I thought that was assault unwanted. So I reported it, I got a message back saying please email the photographs and and the time and any photo anything you got jo I emailed it all Happen. And, when the guard came down collecting tickets, I I reported to the guard and said, yeah, I just just to let you know, I've reported to transport police that that that gentleman over there assaulted your member of staff and I found the behavior inappropriate. And then this this this chap was gonna get off the station at at Guilford. Mhmm. I thought, okay. So there was no chance to transport the police to come on in advance. SEE I thought, well, I was just gonna stand up and to say something to this person. I said so I tried to shake his hand Yeah. And I I grabbed his hand and shook his hand and as I did, I was I was passively hoping that I would distract him in his drunken state from getting off. So I wanted I almost like I almost wanted to hold his hand on that stage. -You're not a dangerous beast, don't you? So your business stop, yeah. And I said I saw what you did, I've reported what you did to transport police and just to let you know I thought I found your behavior completely unacceptable and he was like what's going on? He said well I've got to go' I said do not feel any remorse' he said 'I didn't do any they set him off. So and then I got I got a callback from transport police the next day. I appreciate I'm rebelling on a bit Bites about this, but transport police decided not to take it any further or Southwest Trainers decided not to take it any further because the person involved, the woman who's decided it wasn't that much of a problem jo they had no evidence, you know, they had other evidence it's like that how sad is that that someone has to feel that that's part of their jo? That that's can be that that they have to put up with that every day or or occasions? And how incumbent is on an employer for duty of care to not regardless of whether the employee felt they've been abused, they had CCTV from the train, they have my photographs, there's clear evidence that they should have stood up and said, actually, that's not behavior SEE want passengers to exhibit to our staff. Regardless where the staff thought it was okay and I felt I just thought to myself: South Wales Trains or whoever the train company was at the time are not an organization I'm really I don't think their ethics are great here if they're not prepared to stand up and say something at that point and that was quite disappointing but the sad thing in the relation we're talking about here is the lady who was operating the buffing trolley clearly thought this is an everyday occurrence. It happens and she's almost been socialized to believe it's okay. That's the sad thing about it in that story. That that Bites very different with I've worked

Mark Wingfield: with, 3 train 3 train operating companies so far, and they take a very, very different approach to the one that you you've experienced. And the very first one I I worked on, strangely enough, there's a real strong link to what you just said. I was brought in because a lady had been sexually assaulted serving food and drink. And, poor lady was traumatized as you might expect, and, she wasn't gonna go back to work even though she left a job. And, anyway, the good news story is that she was back at work shortly after I I helped her with the the trauma therapy. And then we worked with all of the staff, all of the onboard catering staff to make sure that that sort of thing never happened again. And what we did was we trained every single staff member in assertiveness and techniques. But they called it a zero tolerance program, the company. And it wasn't just our training. We were just part of it. What they also did was they put up signs and posters everywhere saying it is not acceptable to do this x, y, and zed to our staff members. They should be treated with respect. They had little adverts of, children dressed up in their their parents' clothing, say, please, you know, be nice to my mommy and daddy or, you know, that sort of thing. And, the team were I mean, they were very focused on customer service, but not customer service at any cost like you you might have experienced on that that day when they wanted more more and more drink. So when we train them, it's all about saying and being able to say things like, I can't SEE you anymore. I can't serve you. I'm not jo sorry. And moving on. Or if they had the hand put around them, would you please take your arm off me? Would you please stop doing that, SEE, madam? What you know, whatever the situation was. And then how to ramp that up if they got a negative response or an abusive response, to the point where we also trained them in, self defense as well. So it was, it was a fantastic program. We've let's say we've done that on SEE 3 different train operator companies, very successfully. And what's really gratifying about that is that people have the confidence to turn around and say, please don't do that, and to deal with I mean, this one was food and drink on the train. But what do you do when somebody's threatened to stop their cigarette out on you? Because you've been they've been told not to smoke, that drugs involved, football, gangs, all sorts of Not wearing a mask. Not wearing a mask. Not wearing a

Joanne Lockwood: mask. Yeah. Smoking, but, actually, it's a,

Mark Wingfield: what's the word? Vape. Vaping. Thank you. Vape? Yeah. Vape yeah. Vaping is not allowed on on trains, which a lot of people don't understand why. So it's being able to convey why that's not such a good idea and doing it calmly without getting aggressive, without being too passive. Just finding that right balance of coming across as professional, customer focused, but still author authoritative and and assertive. And it's it's a it's an interesting mix. And and for some, that's really difficult. But we, we do experiential training to to get them in a place where they can do it, and they're coached all the way through it. And they leave, of course, of metaphor, a 10 feet tall with with the confidence, and that's half the battle of being able to do it. We we could go back to our earlier conversation about, you know, people not being able to do it. Once they've actually experienced it and I mentioned to you, I might put my dark glasses on. That's what we that's what we do. We frighten people deliberately on a course. So I'm now for the sake of anybody listening to this, I'm putting my dark glasses on. What you looking at? And because the eyes are hidden, because they betray so much of how we're feeling, and you suddenly get that taken away. And the rest of the body acts very aggressively. We we have somebody coming towards you who we call the intimidator. You have a coach standing by your side. And if you react badly, either aggressively or too passively, the coach will immediately step in and modify your behavior with your support. If you do really well, the coach just says, fantastic, Jo. Keep on going. That's brilliant. And they just whisper in your ear. So it's actually happening and anchoring that experience, and we make sure it's a successful experience jo that if that ever happens in real life, you switch immediately back to what worked well for you beforehand. We've imprinted it in the amygdala, the emotional center of the brain, which is where you go into your when you when you have your fight or flight experience. So it that's why I love doing that. It's it just helps people deal with really nasty stuff and, or mildly disturbing stuff. It doesn't have to be as as high octane as that. But we we SEE we we do the worst so you can cope with anything, really. And we're horrible. We're horrible when we put glasses on. We say the worst stuff. We really do. Sometimes on a train or something like that,

Joanne Lockwood: sometimes it's just about making a very loud noise or saying or saying at the top of your voice, that isn't acceptable. And that creates this kind of everyone now sees what's going on and the person who is perpetrating Bites hopefully will realize that they're now being viewed and they haven't got they haven't got control of the situation anymore. Yeah. Particularly on

Mark Wingfield: a on a train carriage where you're perhaps moving along at whatever speed you're moving Belonging, you can't escape. So you you've gotta really work around the furniture in in the environment that you're in and using other people to your benefit. You know, get people on-site. And and doing just what you just said, you know, being very clear. That is not acceptable, sir, madam. You're gonna have to stop doing that. I'll have to report you to the police. What whatever the words are that are appropriate. And sometimes the best thing actually is to walk away. You know, when somebody I mean, if if you come across somebody who's psychotic, who just doesn't care, if you come across somebody who's waving a needle at you, then you you don't confront them, and you you get you get to the other end of the train and you lock yourself in with the driver if you can. You know, if they if they got a vendetta against your uniform because you're the figure of authority that's come to challenge them, then get out of there. And, you know, in in the last resort, if you can't go anywhere, that's when the physical self defense comes in. But you you shouldn't shouldn't do that unless you really, really have to. So it yeah it makes for very interesting training sessions. Yeah I can imagine. So you said far at

Joanne Lockwood: the beginning about sort of the age of 8 is kind of like a formative type age where if you've been used to, being abused or being treated badly, you're already kind of fitting more meek and mild and you become a habitual receiver of bullying or violence. Presumably the opposite also applies to you, you're used to being treated in a bullying way but you would also maybe take on the role of a bully as well? Is that does that is that cause and effect? You know? If you see, you do. If you experience, it becomes you or or It can be. I I don't think it it

Mark Wingfield: necessarily has to be. Everybody's situation is different, and it certainly can be that. And, you know, that that's what used to be trotted out all the time as, you know, bullies are are people who feel inadequate, and they want to get power over other people. I think it's more complex than that. I think that, you know, if you've had a some nasty physical violence against you in the home or sexual violence or something like that, you you might just think that's the norm, and that's how you treat people. You know? It's it's ingrained. It's Bites learned behavior rather than,

Joanne Lockwood: you know So that's how dad treated mom or mom treated dad. That's how I will treat my wife or my husband or something. Yeah. It's it's kind of that's how marriages work or that's how parents treat the children.

Mark Wingfield: Yeah. And and the same goes for, you know, the discrimination of all kinds, you know, whether it's, color of skin or religion or how people present themselves or, you know, gender issues or or whatever it happens to be. You know, it if you if you're a little top growing up and you see your your mom or dad doing it, well, that's that's how you behave, and that's that's what you learn, unless that gets corrected somehow.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I I fascinate to hear more about your role play stuff. That sounds really really powerful. I mean, I I love experiential learning, and I I think real active scenarios where you put people in those zones where they actually feel because I think most learning for me occurs when there's a feeling of you stimulate more than just the logic, you stimulate that Happen SEE. So I guess that's how you're training which you really are creating this feeling, feel the need type stuff, aren't you? Well, it's really

Mark Wingfield: tapping into where you go when you're frightened because we SEE deliberately frighten people in controlled circumstances. We tell people we're gonna do that as well, by the way, so they they know it. And we we get them to sign a piece of paper because we say we're gonna say really horrible stuff to you with your permission. If there's something you don't want us to say, then please tell us. Otherwise, we we could let anything out of our mouths. And we say that, but also add to it. But please don't don't tell us if you can because we're gonna use stuff that could really be used against you in real life. And if you block that off, it's not reality. So whilst, some people will think, well, you can't say that sort of thing. Actually, we're doing it for the best of intentions. And I'll give you an example again with Bites with a train operation Happen. Actually, I I remember distinctly that SEE, we were doing a a training session, probably about, 14, 15, 16 people, SEE like that. And about a quarter of the people that were in the room were black. And we did a an intimidating scenario where, we had a black lady, and I was the intimidator. So I was swearing at her. I SEE racist language, and I did this to provoke the the fear and the the anxiety that that we need for this to work and for them to benefit the most and learn how to deal with that. And she dealt with me really, really well. She was very professional. She was excellent. Coach helped her a little bit, but she did fantastically well. And so I when we're not doing the the physical side of things, I I retreat. That's that's how she knows it's working because I I go back because I it's not working. And she's very certain. She dealt with it very well. And as soon as she walked off, she went, I'm so glad I did this today. But in the audience was a white lady who it was all about her and her importance on the day. And she complained, I don't see why you have to use racist behavior. I said, well, I don't like racism any more than you do. But we're we're doing this because we're trying to be realistic and help anyone on this course prepare most effectively to deal with nasty stuff that might happen. That's what this course is all about. It's about dealing with aggression and violence. So if you limit what we're gonna SEE, and that lady didn't limit us by the way. She allowed us to to deal with it, and and she wasn't bothered at all. She was really pleased she didn't she'd done it. And the 3 other black people in the room gave her a round of applause, were very happy with what went and we did something similar with some of them as Wellbeing wasn't always racist language that we used. It might have been their appearance or their job role or something we weren't happy with in in the context of a railway situation from a service point of view. And, she wouldn't accept that. She said, no. I I still don't see why you have to. I understand the need for it to be, realistic, but I still don't understand why you have to use racist language. Like, that's real I'm sorry, but that's real life, unfortunately. As much as we might Bites like it not to be, that's real life. And so, you know, if if you were on a course, Jo, for example, I would do all sorts of transgenders stuff, you know, which other people might think, how dare you do it? But the reason I'd do it and I would only do it with your permission, but to to put you in a situation where you felt uncomfortable and had to really learn how to deal with it in the moment. And the coach would help you if you if you were struggling with it. But if you're doing fantastically well, they just say, well done, Jo. Keep going. Excellent. And it we do the same with, people of all varieties. I mean, that we've had mute people on the course, deaf people on the course, people in wheelchairs, of every every color of skin that you can imagine from every well, not every nationality, but a lot lot of different nationalities from Somalian through to Pakistani, to Czech, to Slovakian, to you name it. We've we've worked with with plenty of lots of different communities. And, it's it's I'm just trying to think of anybody else who's ever complained about it. I can't think of anybody else, honestly, in the I've been doing this since, about 12 years ago. She's the only person that's actually had a problem, but it was all about her. And she came late for the session. She didn't sign the piece of paper. We didn't get the get the opportunity to tell tell her about what the circumstances were and and to get her to read the sheet that she needed to sign. And, you know, Bites just very unfortunate. But most importantly, the people that needed the help got the help they needed on the day. And so we we've done our job. It's not your usual guess. I can I can I can imagine?

Joanne Lockwood: And often, it's people feigning offended on behalf of somebody else when all they're really doing is they're having their kind of privilege challenge aren't they they're kind of like well I don't want to listen to that language it doesn't happen in my world sort of thing so you're being offensive without but they often did not realizing that that's everyday lived experience of any people. That's right. And that's the reality of the

Mark Wingfield: world. Yeah. Absolutely. That that and that's that's where it came from. And I I think also I might be being unfair here, but I I sensed a little bit of, well those those poor black people don't they're not able to look after themselves jo I've got to do this for them. I sensed a little bit of that as well which I thought was very distasteful. That benevolent, that Yeah. That maternal paternal

Joanne Lockwood: kind of yeah. So, Yeah. No. That that's that's quite prevalent. Yeah. I mean I mean, fortunately, most people that I I talk to in the workplace, a lot of this is kind of subtle. It's it's it's not overt Bites the microaggressions Bites the kind of the whispering behind their backs the yeah, if you talk about maybe trans people, the misgendering or the misnaming or the that look or the subtle exclusion or being suddenly you find you're tolerated and people walking away from you or the, you know, the playground bully stuff, not not not physical, a lot of it's more mental or subtle and that's that's the frustration, this this humiliation, this, Yeah. That doesn't

Mark Wingfield: always lend itself to the sort of aggression and the high octane stuff I've just described. But what we also do sometimes is and quite often, actually, we do something called forum theater where we act out a situation and people throw situation to us and say, right, can you role play this, please? So 2 of us role play the situation on their behalf. And then they correct to say, oh, no. It doesn't work work out quite like that. Or, they throw in an idea of how it could work. You know, can you replay that? Say it like this or change change the circumstance? And they find it very, very, practical. And so those microaggressions you're talking about might be a really good thing to work on there.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah I'm just thinking sort of like the in the office where SEE casual sexism is at play where the woman in the room is expected to clear the table after the meeting or make the coffees or or be talked over. So it's more techniques to SEE able to exert your your presence, your authority, seek allies, seek people around you to amplify you and to say actually it's not my role to clear the coffee cups up, can somebody it's not fair or whatever whatever the retort is or or it might SEE in a particular instance if someone calls me mate, it's like actually I'm not your mate, that's not language I like to SEE, I don't mind if you personally I don't mind if you call me love whereas many many women will find love offensive, but I Joanne think it's right, it's actually quite validating. To be treated in a sexist way is perversely quite validating for me.

Mark Wingfield: Yeah I get that, yeah. Yeah jo it's yeah

Joanne Lockwood: those are the kind of the workplace things that go on day in day out. And that's if you're not they're not physical, they're not overt. I mean, I I think that's yeah. The experiential stuff you're doing here is is very much out in the street. I fully understand, I fully see the needs of it. How Joanne people learn these techniques for SEE these micro, these kind of these subtle things, isn't it? The drip drip drip stuff. Yeah. That that's more the forum theater stuff that

Mark Wingfield: we do and, sitting down and talking things through. But, again, it can be extremely upsetting when you're in the receiving end. So having some we we train people in, something called heart rate variability control, for example. So you you control the sinusoidal wave of, of your heart rate and the how it changes because your hearts change all the time. And if you can control that, you control the overproduction of adrenaline and cortisol. You make yourself feel much better through producing up to something called DHEA and have more focus by producing something called acetylcholine. If you can get the frequency of your heart working correctly, we we teach people how to do that, and it enables you to access your thinking brain again. So if you've slipped into fight or flight, then this can just focus you back very quickly. So you can use all of that great experience and and abilities, and you can you can herd people to help you and support you and have a strategy. But if you and if you can't do that or you're terrified or you're frozen, which happens to a lot of people, especially on our intimidating courses like that bunny in the headlights type thing, If you don't have those those techniques, you can't then move forwards, and you can't have those discussions and use those techniques that can really assert the situation is not correct and would you please do this type of response. Yeah. It it's a challenge. When you when you said something about I'm not your mate, it just made me laugh because, I'm known in my family saying things like that. So so we at home, we had a guy around making, making some electrical repairs around the Happen. And, every second word was mate. Alright, mate. We're gonna put that installation there, mate. And then we're gonna do this, mate. And then we're gonna do that, mate. And I got sick and tired of it. And I said, look. Can I just stop you there? I'm not your mate. You can call me Mark. You can call me the boss. You can call me sir. You can call me customer, mister customer, but I'm not your mate. I'm your customer. And when my kids heard that, they're like, dad, you can't say that. I said, well Well, someone has to. Yeah. Someone has to say that. Yeah. That's right. You really do sometimes. Yeah. I mean, you you mentioned

Joanne Lockwood: HRV and I found out a little bit about HRV. I was at a seminar just over a year ago and there was this study Belonging on around the impact of HRV or the correlation between HRV and stress and they they found 30 SEE and they wired them up with a with a monitor 20 fourseven flights 3 or 4 weeks and they wide up some other people who are not in those kind of roles, people in sort of kind of benevolent sort of calm roles. And what they identified Bites some of these SEE, so so red in their language was high high was a low HRV. So low HRV is bad, high HRV is good. You want you want a big heart rate variability on the little one. Mhmm. That's what they were saying. Jo so they identified that a lot of these CEOs had HRV in a dangerous way, almost 20 fourseven, even when they were sleeping, their HRV was in the stress zone. And they identified that over the course of a day, they probably had 5 or 10 minutes spread throughout the day where their HRV was kind of relaxed. And then they compared that with the HRV of people in non stress roles or people who've got their kind of stress under control and they were the almost like polar opposite where their HRV would spike, but all their slate all their all their slate pattern was unbroken by by basically this HRV being kind of in the green zone And so there's a huge link between the hashtags, strokes, mental well-being on HRV as well, so you talk about this fight or flight this and I also noticed that my Apple Watch now has this Breathe app and the Breathe Happen, when you activate the Breathe functionality, it actually causes HRV mechanism to monitor during that Breathe cycle. So I've become a since that talk and then you mentioned I've become kind of aware of the link between HRV, stress, anxiety and other things.

Mark Wingfield: Yeah Bites all it's all interlinked. I first started working in that in, 2007, and, and I've got a a little piece of software on my computer that I hook people up to so that they can actually see their heart rate variability as they're as they're doing this exercise. There's all sorts of software that that that can help train people to do it. And, Fascinating. It's a bit of fun, but it's very, very practical stuff. That's that's all I'm interested in, practical things that will that will help.

Joanne Lockwood: Well, I just think I'm I'm fairly relaxed a lot of the time that you say is, but my HRV is is not great. And I don't know why that is because I'm not I'm pretty I'm pretty chilled out. I don't I don't worry about a lot at the moment. And, so, yeah, I'm just I'm trying to figure out why my HRV is jo I've got a very low HRV, which I think is bad, isn't it? You got you want big variability to indicate you're Well, I when I've been doing I mean, I've been doing this

Mark Wingfield: quite a while, and I see I often get people out to demonstrate how you can, by yourself, learn how to control your half rate Bites variability. And to me, it's the it's the shape of the curve that's more important. Some people have much shorter curves than others. So I'm not I I'm not familiar with the the the research that you're talking about. I'll be very interested to have a look at it, but it to my mind, having done this for a long time, the it's not so much the variability and your the elasticity of your heart heart rate reduces as you get older anyway. So as you get older, you're gonna have less of a a peak and trough anyway simply because your your heart you know, imagine that that when you're a a 10 year old and you're a 20 year old, you know, you you have very, huge flexibility in in all of your body, not just your heart, and and it's just a symptom of that. Whereas when you as you get older, you know, things seize up a bit and don't work quite as well. I think that was the key thing. The the

Joanne Lockwood: recovery going from high anxiety to low anxiety that was the SEE as you said that the curve on the way back down is the important thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

Mark Wingfield: and it's easy to learn. You know? It it's just simple techniques, but then you can bolster it with some psychological techniques. And, if we had more time, I could I could go into some of those and explain how they work. But Sure. I mean, I I I I

Joanne Lockwood: jo suffer from, high blood pressure. And whenever I was having my blood pressure taken, I knew that if I could get myself into a zone and I could reduce it from being 150 over to 120 over just by really just by putting myself in this place in my head. Yeah. And I could I could actually think my blood pressure down Yes. And the nurse looked to me like I was crazy, I said, well no, just give me a second now. And she jo, wow, how did you do that? I said, yeah, I just gotta put myself in this place where I can do that. Mhmm. I guess that's like a a micro meditation, isn't it? It's kind of some way of just knowing you can bring take control of your body again. Yeah. I I

Mark Wingfield: use distraction techniques, in a whole host of things. I mean, in heart rate variability and also when I do, Havening, for example, as well, which is a trauma therapy I use. And the power of the mind is is phenomenal, and we don't we don't tap into it enough. You know, we we allow it to run us rather than us take control. So I help people take the control back. Well,

Joanne Lockwood: on on that note, I think oh, and we could talk when we've been going to SOVA now. I'm sure we can talk for a lot longer and yeah. We Happen. And I think what we do is if we wrap it up there I mean and anyone who's listening I'm sure can get in contact with you SEE how can people get in touch? What's the best way of finding you? Well, it

Mark Wingfield: it's been it's been pretty enjoyable, Jo. Thanks for that. I wasn't that disflating the breakfast stuff we were going to talk about today. But to get in touch, if you if you look Mark Wingfield from MaxUp, m a x, you'll find me in a in any search engine. Bites I'm on, LinkedIn, a little bit on Twitter. I've just just started on Instagram. I'm just dab dabbling, dipping my toe in Instagram. That's under Max train Diversity. And, I have a haveningmax.com is my Havening website, but I'm also, on maxconflictmanagement.com because that's a lot of bread and butter work that I normally do. That's always m a x. So thank you very much indeed, Jo. It's been fun, and, we'll talk again soon. Didn't you

Joanne Lockwood: mention that, you got an offer for anyone who's listening that they can, they can, take Indeed. Take a bar shot for the new year. Is that right? Yeah. Thanks for reminding John for talking about

Mark Wingfield: that. Yeah. I I run online workshops to learn how to reduce fear and anxiety. And they've been very successful and popular since I first started doing them in May. And they're continuing. So into the new year, there'll be various dates on my Eventbrite site. So, again, if you look at Max training and development on Eventbrite And if you put in, Jo Lockwood as a code, that's jo o so, capital letter j then lowercase, that's the word, lowercase jo, and then uppercase l, and then the rest of Lockwood as a code. No gaps. As a thank you for anybody coming on here and and listening to to me spout away for a little while, there's immediate 10% off coming along there. And, so, yeah, everybody will welcome to come along. You don't have to talk about what it might be that upsets you or you want to work with. It's very quick. It's permanent. It's fantastic. So, come along experience. There's a video on the on the Venbrite page to explain what what all that's about. Bites thank you for reminding me, Jo. Yeah. That's that's open to any, please. Brilliant.

Joanne Lockwood: What I'll do is I'll make sure we put those details when on the show notes and, when we share this episode. Jo, yeah, click click below, you'll find it and, we'll make sure you do that. So thank you very much and a huge thank you to the listeners, you, for tuning in. Please do subscribe and keep updates on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast that's B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends, tell your colleagues, I'm sure you have loads. Well, I've got a number of exciting guests lined up just like Mark and I'm sure you'll be inspired by them over the next few weeks months. And of course, if you'd like to be a guest, if you'd like to inspire people, I'd welcome you to get in touch as well. So as always, if you've got any ideas, feedback, suggestions, then please do email me to jo atseachangehappen.co.uk. I'd love your thoughts on how we can improve. So finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.