--- title: "Latina Power Rising" episode: 222 date: 2026-09-10 guest: "Vanessa Alonso" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/222-latina-power-rising audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-222/audio.mp3 --- # Latina Power Rising In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood uncovers the realities and nuances of power, belonging, and marginalisation within the Latina community with guest Vanessa Alonso. Their conversation traverses the unique challenges faced by Latina women striving for professional autonomy while negotiating historical traditions, restrictive power structures, and entrenched expectations in both family and society. Joanne and Vanessa reflect on how resilience, allyship, and community create new models of ownership and empowerment—redefining what it means to build influence 'the Latina way' amidst adversity, shifting societal attitudes, and shifting political currents. Vanessa Alonso is a visionary CEO, co-founder, and immigration attorney based in San Antonio, Texas. Driven by her commitment to Latinas and their families, Vanessa leverages her lived experience as a first-generation professional and business owner to empower and advocate for marginalised communities through legal and entrepreneurial guidance. She specialises in bridging cultural divides, tackling economic and power gaps, and lifting Latina entrepreneurs to live and lead with courage, purpose, and legacy. Her work is grounded in activating core cultural strengths—such as family values and community solidarity—while challenging the status quo that has systematically limited access to ownership and decision-making for Latinos in the US. Joanne and Vanessa explore themes such as the social and cultural barriers faced by Latinas, the dynamics of assimilation, the myth of meritocracy in immigration, and the lived impact of anti-immigration rhetoric. They examine the necessity for underrepresented groups to create infrastructures and networks tailored to their reality, the intersection of migration and workforce sustainability, and how political shifts alter the climate for inclusion and representation. The conversation is both a stark analysis and an empowering call to reframe worthiness and power in minoritised spaces. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction to Inclusion Bites podcast - 04:09 — Embracing Latino empowerment - 07:32 — Latino culture and family dynamics - 13:30 — Empowering marginalised communities - 15:26 — Fear of immigration changes - 20:17 — Understanding immigration challenges - 22:16 — Visiting migrant farm worker camps - 24:32 — Racism towards Mexican immigrants - 27:38 — Exploiting undocumented workers' vulnerability - 30:45 — Understanding different immigration statuses - 35:07 — Challenges for Immigrants in the US - 40:11 — Global influence of political rhetoric - 43:47 — Building a Unique Immigration Firm - 47:47 — Texas time zones and moving away - 51:26 — Hopes for election change - 53:11 — Voter participation and government trust - 56:30 — Contacting us for legal help ## Key takeaways - The cultural drivers that encourage Latinos to serve others, and the need to transition towards empowered ownership and financial literacy. - How historic traditions, machismo, and humility manifest as internalised barriers to self-advocacy and economic participation. - The dual nature of obstacles: institutional power structures and deeply rooted self-limiting beliefs within marginalised communities. - Why building peer communities and infrastructure is crucial for sustainable progress, rather than assimilating into majority-dominated models. - The realities and misconceptions surrounding immigration, including the vital economic role migrants play and the punitive narratives that dominate political discourse. - Navigating the complex, dehumanising rhetoric immigrants face, and how legal definitions like “undocumented” shape lived experience. - The importance of active voter participation—highlighting how democracy and true representation hinge on marginalised voices being heard at the ballot box. ## FAQs ### What does "redefining power the Latina way" mean? It refers to shifting from a community role rooted in service and humility to one of empowered ownership, financial literacy, and influence, while leveraging cultural strengths such as strong family values and work ethic 00:04:09. ### Why do some Latinas feel hesitant to pursue professional advancement? Generational traditions, such as machismo and prioritising humility over ambition, alongside limited access to mentors and internalised self-doubt, can foster feelings of unworthiness and caution when stepping outside expected social roles 00:07:32. ### How does immigration status impact daily life for Latinos in the United States? Undocumented individuals often navigate complex legal, linguistic, and social barriers, with vulnerability to exploitation, exclusion from resources, and the constant threat of dehumanisation and loss of agency 00:30:45. ### What are some misconceptions about the immigration process? A common misunderstanding is that legalisation is a matter of simple paperwork, whereas in reality eligibility criteria are often restrictive, processes are complex, and many have no viable route to permanent residency despite long-term residency and contributions 00:20:48. ### Why is it important for marginalised communities to build their own infrastructures? By creating culturally aligned enterprises and support networks, marginalised groups can foster collective economic power and agency, rather than remaining perpetually in subordinate positions within mainstream, often white- and male-dominated, structures 00:13:30. ### How does participation in democracy relate to inclusion? Low voter turnout undermines representative outcomes and perpetuates systems that may disadvantage minority communities; widespread engagement is key to driving policy changes that reflect and serve diverse interests 00:54:12. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to joanne.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 222 with the title Latina Power Rising. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Vanessa Alonso. Vanessa is a visionary CEO, co founder and immigration attorney who empowers Latino communities through legal advocacy whilst helping Latina entrepreneurs live with courage, purpose and legacy. Asked Vanessa to describe her superpower, she said that it is redefining power the Latina way. Hello, Vanessa. Welcome to the show. Vanessa Alonso: Thank you, Jo. Thank you for having me. Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure. I'm looking forward to this conversation. This is probably a topic I've never tackled before and I've got an expert sat opposite me. Sat opposite me. Directly opposite. Whereabouts in the world are you? Vanessa Alonso: I'm in San Antonio, Texas. Joanne Lockwood: Lovely. Is it lovely weather there at the moment? I always ask people, I must be British, I ask people about the weather all the time. Is it lovely? Vanessa Alonso: It's important. It dictates so much. We are having spring, as most are at this moment, and it's been really nice. Allergies are extremely high. That's the only problem. We are in a really, you know, unique part of Texas where allergens are extremely high and it's, it's very surprising to most people that move here and never experienced allergies before, but we're all, you know, sniffling and sneezing. But at least it's a, it's a community wide problem we face altogether. But otherwise, yeah, the weather's been great for the last few days. Joanne Lockwood: So the allergies you talk about here, this is pollen, this is, this is the plant. And so it is, yes, we have Vanessa Alonso: something very unique called cedar fever, which is there's a certain cedar tree that with extreme weather changes, releases an exceptional amount of Pollen, all at once. So we often feel like we have flu like symptoms, but they're just allergies. So it's very unique to our, our region and it's not really split. Spoken about. So it's often a surprise to people that move to San Antonio, Texas that they begin to experience these symptoms they've never had before and they mistake them for colds. But it's not a cold, it's allergies. Joanne Lockwood: Allergies. Wow. Wow. I'm aware that, you know, and this is on a smaller scale, I'm sure we have rapeseed fields and in, in the spring when, in this sort of time of year when the wind blows and the pollen's flowing around, you can go for a drive and as you say, you suddenly feel kind of congested or your nose feels kind of. What's going on here? You're right, that's, that's, that's the allergens. And out with the antihistamine tablets and the nasal spray. Nasal spray. Nasal spray, yeah. But it's short lived whilst the pollen is around. So hopefully in a month or so it's all. A bit of rain will dampen it down. Vanessa Alonso: Yeah. A small price to pay for the beauty of flowers and nature. Joanne Lockwood: It is, it is. So what is the Latina way? You know, as I read out your pal, what is the Latina way? Vanessa Alonso: The Latino way, to me is something new in our country. Latinos are numerous. We are here with large families. We dominate certain industries and it's often not from a place of power. It's normally from a place of serving the community or serving others. And what I found in starting my own practise as a lawyer in 2017, and a lot of what I've had to overcome personally to be able to do so, is that culturally we're built to serve and help others. And culturally we haven't been given the tools or the resources to take that next step in saying, you know, I have ownership in this or I want to build upon my skills in serving people. And so to me, the Latino power is something I'm attempting to seed, if you will, in my community so that we can approach the world, what we do for a living, how we live our lives, from an empowered position as opposed to from a serving position. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I was chatting to someone this morning actually on the phone, and we were talking about this very same sort of concept, that when you are a marginalised or minority, you tend to be socially acceptable. If you're entertaining, playing sport, whatever it may be, or Serving. But as soon as you try and pull up a chair at the table, what are you doing here? What's your right to be here? And you say the power imbalances, you're fully accepted, fully welcomed, but one step down, not on a peer to peer basis. And that's, that's, that's what you're getting within your communities. Yeah. Vanessa Alonso: Yes, absolutely. When I wanted to start a business, even when I wanted to go to law school, you know, there were not many people that look like me that are in my family who can advise on these things. So that loneliness of being first generation professional, first generation business owner, it's prompted me to seek out, you know, what is out there. Maybe I couldn't find it, maybe it just wasn't in my vicinity, but maybe it's, you know, statewide, maybe it's nationwide. And I found many gaps. And what I've seen and loved about other cultures in the United States is that by leveraging their culture, their religion, their unity, their values, certain cultures in the US have really thrived. And I want the same for Latinos in the United States. I want us to utilise what we do best, which are, you know, strong family values, excellent work ethic, but do it to build something that serves us and no longer everyone else. And that's not to say that, you know, Latinos are any better or different than other people. It's just to say, I seen a blueprint that's available and we are not applying it. So I want to bring that conversation to the forefront about ownership, about leverage, about power, about economic and financial literacy, investing. There are so many things that we do not participate in traditionally that really have, have kept us from capitalising on our population in the United States. Joanne Lockwood: Picking up on what you said there is the challenge, your own limiting beliefs, or is it the power structures that fight back against you, or is it a bit of both? Vanessa Alonso: This is a great question. Latinos, we've suffered from several traditions, if you will. One is, you know, we have a machismo culture where males take a very dominant place in the family and males traditionally are, you know, protectors, providers, doers, while in my opinion, at least, women are more visionary. The ones with the ideas, the ones with the, the compassion or that foresight of what things could be. But in the Latino family, if a male is dominating and a woman's not given a plate or a voice, I believe that automatically sets us back. We have other parts of our culture. For example, you know, our history, and I'm of Mexican descent, so Our history in Mexico, where we basically relented to conquest in a way, for several reasons, you know, and how that tradition has passed on to us where we prefer to maybe assimilate and not fight, where family values and protection rank higher than brutality and fighting tooth and nail to keep what is ours. And I believe that that being passed down is what keeps us humble. Humility is a huge pillar of our. Of our culture as well. You know, not wanting too much, being happy with what you have, strong belief in God and that God provides and not necessarily about what we deserve or what we have access to. And so it's a culmination of many things that have us where we are today in the United States. I think another large part is that due to prior deportations in the 80s, you know, like my parents and grandparents, although extremely Mexican in their DNA, and then at home in the public, there was an expectation of assimilation. So passing down the language, trying not to stand out too much as belonging to Mexico was. Was of concern. And so there's also been like a dilution of what makes us the most proud and what helps us anchor our identity in the United States. So there are many things that I've been discovering on my journey to figure out why myself. For example, why was I too scared to start my own law practise? Why was I too scared to. To do things that I saw other women that were lawyers doing? I would see I had a good business mentor and she would have an idea and she would implement it so quick. She would start like the next day, reading books about it, you know, getting her team together, brainstorming. And I would ponder the idea for months, sometimes years, kind of frozen, not ready to make a. Make a move. And I think it, with coaching and books and. And masterminds, I discovered that it's something unique to me, that if I have a worthiness issue, I'm unable to move forward as quickly as my friend, who and mentor, who is a white woman. You know, she didn't have the same upbringings as I did. She didn't have the same family dynamics that I did growing up. And so where she believes she saw a route and she's ready to take it, I saw a route and I had to stop and ponder, ask for opinions. I was never confident enough to take those steps on my own. So you bring up a. You bring up really great questions on this issue and it's really something I'm developing in real time. Joanne Lockwood: Do you find that the pushback is almost proportionate by your by who you are. There's a socially acceptable version of being you that fits into society. There's no pushback. You can blend, but as soon as you step forward that one step too many, that's where the oppression is, the pushback is. Hang on a minute now. You want too much. Vanessa Alonso: Absolutely. And I can't say I've seen it directly. It's been indirectly. It's been access to resources, access to information I believe in. When I've tried to grow something or I tried to do something, the only people that have had the knowledge and the resources to help me have been other white people and not people of my own, not Latino people. And I love those people in my circle. I thank God for them because I would never even have an idea of that disparity if they were not here to support me to bridge that gap. But it's just interesting that when I'm looking for culturally aligned mentors, culturally aligned business people to advise me, it's very difficult to find them. If I'm not mistaken, it's very new to have Latinos in places of power, like on executive boards, owning businesses, owning companies and high ranking places at banks where decisions about loans are made. So I think we're just starting and I can't say that I've seen somebody push me down and say, no, you want too much. Yet I see trying to do things and not having, not having options because the options are not built for someone like me in mind. And they're not. There's no accommodation for something coming from where I'm coming from because we historically are not participating in those things. Joanne Lockwood: I often wonder if it's almost incumbent on those who are marginalised from minority backgrounds to create their own communities, their own businesses, their own infrastructure. Because trying to force your way into a traditional white dominated, male dominated world doesn't always work because you're always going to be playing that second person, you know, it's going to be the diverse candidate. Whereas if you create your own community, your own infrastructure, it may be smaller to start with, but at least it's yours. And then you can welcome people who you want and then compete with people from those other businesses. Vanessa Alonso: I am with that 100%. I think any marginalised community is best to work with others in that same community and to try to find the people with that similar mindset. Because when you're working within a marginalised community, there's only so many that are really at the forefront of trying to grow that community or build upon, you know, there's like belonging to a marginalised community. And then there's someone that wants to make an impact, you know, using that marginalised community for the marginalised community. So I would wholeheartedly agree that that's the best approach, is get with people that are like you and that can relate to your marginalisation, who want to be leaders and want to make a difference. And that is truly the best place to start now, eventually, once that marginalised community has grown and with certain members doing certain things at certain levels, like now, that impact can grow, that impact can spread. And seen communities that have been marginalised historically, who now have an exceptional amount of authority and influence over countries, over politics, over income, you know, and that's something that I ponder about, like, you know, what are the proper steps to utilise what us as Latinos have the best going for us so that we can grow, so that we can depend on ourselves and create an ecosystem where we're feeding back into our own wellbeing, so that we can improve our position in a place like the United States. Joanne Lockwood: If you look globally at the moment, and it's not just the us, there's a pushback against immigration. I see it in the uk, I see it in Europe, obviously. I see it in the news in the us, what's going on, especially around your communities, are being targeted. Specifically, what scares people around about immigration? Why are people scared? Vanessa Alonso: People are scared of change. I believe people in the United States who are anti immigrant fear that with the growing number of newcomers, it will change the status quo, that there will be more influence, there'll be different interests that don't align, maybe with the same interests that have held power for a long period of time in the United States. I think there's a term and I'll have to look it up, I believe it's called the replacement theory, if I'm not mistaken. So there's a fear of being replaced. There's a fear that too many Latino immigrants or immigrants from different cultures will overwhelm what's currently occurring and that the people that have power today could lose that. And I've seen that, because with immigration, especially as an immigration attorney, if I have clients who are now obtaining legal status, right, a green card is one step away from the United States citizenship. So once you're on that path, if I allow someone to get here and then they can apply for green card status and then citizenship status, I'm almost allowing somebody else to get that power to vote in the future. And because our political system has one side has been showing extreme, not, I want to say leniency, but more one side. Obviously Democrats have shown more support of immigrant dreams and immigrant, the immigrant process in the United States compared to others. I believe there's a fear that new green card holders that become U.S. citizens will definitely be democratic in nature and vote blue and change power. So that's just from my perspective as an immigration lawyer, what I've seen, I Joanne Lockwood: saw a stat recently around globally, our population is not growing anymore. We're having less children, less babies per capita than we've ever done in the past. The danger with that is that we're becoming an ageing population. I'm not sure what the stats are in the US but certainly in the UK and Europe. Before long, we will be in a situation where we need more young people to better fund pensions and keep this super majority of people over 50 paid for somehow looked after. And the danger with having a falling birth rate is we've got nobody to replace the older generation. So in fact, immigration is going to be essential, or migration is going to be essential to ensure we're taking the good resource from somebody else and putting it to our country. Otherwise, we're going to be in a situation where we've got this big gap, we've got a knowledge gap, we've got a skills gap, and we've got a resource gap. And so migration, immigration must be seen as a good thing. Vanessa Alonso: It absolutely should be. Especially when certain cultures, for example, for example Latino cultures, the majority of roles that we take in the United States are caregiver roles. So if we have an ageing US Population and we're limiting the people that come to this country to care for children, to care for elderly, then that is definitely a disservice to our future. And I agree that countries that are not able to provide for their population, that suffer their population coming to another place that that is, can be seen as a benefit to us. And historically has been, I mean, we've been a, a beacon of hope for immigrants since our onset, you know, since we began. That is literally how we came to be as a country. And so to come away from that without understanding the consequences is definitely concerning. Joanne Lockwood: But US citizens are happy to spring break it in TJ or nip across the border and enjoy the Latina culture. Yeah, but don't, don't come, don't bring it north with you is what almost what they're saying, isn't it? We want to come and visit you but don't want you to live here. Vanessa Alonso: Exactly. I remember during the Black Lives Matter protest. You know, years ago somebody said you like, you love black culture, but you don't love black people. And that has resonated with me because I see the amount of Latinos, especially Mexican culture, be celebrated, enjoyed, loved. Kristjen, who was the leader of Department of Homeland Security, dressed up, you know, as a Mexican for some event or something and it's just like, wow, like that is so painful to on one hand really celebrate the culture but not see the humanity and the people that are part of that culture. Those people are part of your communities. We have undocumented people, undocumented parents getting rounded up and deported and children are left at school like those children are in the schools with American children. So this is not that far away. Even if you have no one in your family that has a lack of immigrant status, you have many people adjacent and in your community and you are affected, even at least indirectly. So I agree with you, it's very, it's funny. And I myself love to go to Mexico and I see how many, you know, Americans enjoy Mexican culture in Mexico. So I'm with you. And the amount of misunderstanding about the process in general, like believing that it's just about filling out paperwork and it's so easy. Why, why, why are, why would anyone be undocumented? Is often a question. Because there's a belief that the system is accessible and easy to navigate, but the rules are very strict and often the people that are here don't have, don't have eligibility for the methods that exist at the moment, but they're here working with, for lower wages. They're supporting our community in a way by providing labour that no other American wants to do. You know, Americans don't want to pick vegetables, they don't want to work in restaurants, they don't want to clean houses, they don't want to care for elderly or children because often that's very labour intensive work with low pay. And so yeah, I'm with you. Joanne Lockwood: Do you see the situation where you have the. I'm just trying to think of a way to describe. So people who are white, white people who live in poverty or near poverty. Their argument is that people are taking their jobs, people are taking their right, but these people themselves aren't putting them into those positions or not educating themselves or not putting them into those roles. They're still saying, well actually that's still beneath me, I have nothing, I'm going to blame somebody else for taking it, but I'm still not going to step forward. It becomes that Sort of self fulfilling. I'm going to moan about it, but I'm not going to do anything about it. Vanessa Alonso: Absolutely. You know, I did a migrant farm worker programme when I was in law school. I had to visit 150 migrant farm worker camps in Ohio. And some of the farmers and the owners that I met, they would pay what's called a prevailing wage, which means there's an immigration programme where you can bring in workers to do agricultural work. One farm in particular did cabbage and they would bring in Brazilians to pick the cabbage. And that farmer said, I am happy to pay the prevailing wage, which means it's way over minimum wage. Because the work ethic is so different from the people that come here from another country to do the job than all the times that I've tried to hire somebody, an American, who said, I want to try it, I want to do it. You know, they often don't last. It's backbreaking work. They don't want to continue. It's difficult because it's not what they're used to. I've heard that from several owners that they prefer Latino labour because of the work ethic. So I agree with you, someone to blame, that there's no jobs when the jobs that Americans prefer to take are not jobs historically taken by undocumented people. You know, it's difficult. There's, there's a language barrier, there's an education barrier. And so most Latino immigrants are pigeonholed into doing what has historically been done by that community in the United States or they're coming to stay with a family member. And that's the connection they have. You know, come work in the restaurant with me, come pick vegetables with me, come help me in my cleaning business, or help, help a friend or somebody that owns a cleaning business. And so we see a continuation of like traditional jobs and roles that Latinos take in the United States. And I have yet to see Americans step up to say, we will take care of the elderly, we will take care of the children, we will clean the houses, we will pick the vegetables, we will cook in the restaurants. I have yet to see that. Joanne Lockwood: Is there a hierarchy of immigrant where you have a good immigrant, a bad immigrant, a Portuguese speaking immigrant, versus a Spanish speaking immigrant, a Dominican Republic, a Costa Rican, a Colombian or a Mexican is a. Or do people just go immigrant? Vanessa Alonso: That's a great question. I would say that the racism towards immigrants from my perspective, and it could be just because I reside in Texas, maybe if I resided in Miami, Florida, it would be different. But I see much more negative rhetoric towards Mexican immigrants in comparison to other cultures. So I don't see it as much. And I mean, that could be based on my. On my geographic location, but the jokes. And when you see someone saying, I'm going to call ICE on you, it's normally involving someone of Mexican descent. I have yet to see it for others, but I'm sure it's happening just based on someone not understanding someone's true descent and hearing them speak Spanish and maybe making those comments. So maybe it's not necessarily a hierarchy in the cultures, but I believe the hierarchy exists with the language. If somebody does not speak English in the United States and is speaking Spanish, the chances of them encountering racism brought on by this new administration and their enforcement priorities, it's very high. I've experienced it myself. I've been practising immigration law for 15 years. I've lived in Texas my whole life. And I was recording content in front of the USCIS building, which is the office that handles all the applications, right. U.S. citizenship and Immigration Services. So it's a public building. I have clients going there daily. I chose to set up in front of the building to record some comment about what's happening today that's different from last year. And this Honda Civic drove close to me. It's myself, my videographer, I have my personal assistant helping me with the scripting and so forth. And we're all dressed very professionally. We don't look like day labourers. I look the same way I look right now. And this Honda Civic slowed down and said, ICE is coming for all of you, like, in the most mean, aggressive voice, and drove away. And I was like, wow, the assumption that I am Mexican and undocumented, or just Latina and undocumented, is wild, you know, at the moment, based on the circumstances. And so it's almost like if that person is just waiting for opportunities to hurt people or say hurtful things based on what they assume about that person. Joanne Lockwood: But that is the playbook from some political angle, isn't it? You're not trying to engage with the person, you're not trying to do anything. You're just trying to dehumanise, stereotype and categorise people as being other. And that's really what it is, whether you're documented or undocumented. The message is, I'm going to accuse you of that because I know it hurts you and I know it damages Vanessa Alonso: your standing and it puts you at risk. If you are undocumented, it absolutely puts you at risk. Joanne Lockwood: And people are Going to challenge you first, not believe you first. Rather than just walking by, they're going to go, oh, okay. A law enforcement officer might go, oh, let me just check. Can I just see your driving licence or something? Yeah, it might, absolutely. Vanessa Alonso: Or it's that. It's literally just that yielding of power. If you by chance are undocumented and I utter those words, I automatically have the upper hand. You know, you see these videos on social media of neighbours having, having arguments and right away, if one neighbour happens to be Latino looking, Spanish speaking, those words about legal status, about calling ice, it's, it's really sad, honestly, because it truly is, it does create a difference in power automatically, that conversation or bringing that up. And this is something that we see in workplaces as well. People who are undocumented not being able to combat abuse or speak up because one, they're in a job that they're very grateful to have, they need it to support their family, likely in the United States and people back home, they're not easy to come by. And it's absolutely true that once that person says, I will call ICE if you don't complete X thing, or if you choose not to obey by my rules or if you complain, then that person automatically becomes a victim of forced labour. You know, and that's one of the visa types that we educate our community on is the T visa or trafficking visa. So you don't necessarily have to be brought to the United States against your will to qualify for this visa. If you've been a victim of forced labour in the workplace, that's another avenue to get that same legalisation. And so, yeah, you're, you're absolutely correct on that. I'm curious as to what is the, what is the intent behind those statements? Is it just a check on power to remind somebody that they are lesser in the United States and therefore should act accordingly? I believe so, yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I think from my perspective it's the dehumanisation. Because once I can treat you with that kind of language, I can throw those things at you. I haven't got to think of you as a person. Whatever happens to you, if you do get taken away, incarcerated, whatever it may be, I don't feel guilty because I don't see you as equal. I see you as not a human. And by using that language and propagating it, you hear what's going on in the political sphere, the name calling and the funny names people get given by using those names, it makes that person seem like a comedy or a parody or Less credible, less human, therefore you don't respond to them. So I think it's all part of that, destroying people's credibility, treating them as lesser. And then you feel that you can do whatever you want with that person, they're not as good as me, therefore I can treat them as an animal or whatever it may be. So, yeah, the playbook plays out in many different situations. Whether it's LGBTQ rights, whether it's immigration or other parts of the world as well. It plays out all the time. So you use the term undocumented. That's not a phrase we use in the uk. So we use things like asylum seekers, legal immigrants, there's some other less good words. So what does the term undocumented mean, from your perspective? Vanessa Alonso: Undocumented means not having a government issued permission to reside in the country. We have different types of status, if you will. Some are temporary in nature and provide protection from deportation, some don't. So it's really interesting that it's not black and white with immigration. We have DACA holders, for example, you know, people that were brought as children to the United States and the government decided to give them access to work permits with, if they meet certain criteria. So we call them the dreamers, you know, and that is someone who does not have a route to a green card or permanent status. They're just authorised to be here, authorised to work here, but there's no path forward. You know, we have temporary protected status holders as well, people that come from countries where there's war or natural disasters and they're given a temporary permit to live in the United States. Well, we have some temporary protected status holders that have been in the US 20 years with that status. Like, at what point are they part of our community or what point are they going to be granted permanent protection if our government has allowed those programmes to extend? You know, so often what we have available to us in immigration just does not match common sense and how families and lives work. And that's the problem, is the system is not humane. And now if we have an inhumane approach to the already inhumane system, it's. It's really causing distress to families and uncertainty to even practitioners like myself trying to use the law to navigate, navigate relief and navigate options and navigate protection when application of the law seems to be inconsistent and in its own right, Joanne Lockwood: it must be a privilege to be able to access your services. So you. You're not free, or the service isn't completely free. It's complicated, requires some level of documentation and paperwork, or at Least family connections. So it's not an easy thing for people to get involved with. And if you're not speaking good English or good enough English, it must be almost impossible to navigate this complexity. Vanessa Alonso: Yeah, absolutely. As a firm, we try to meet our clients where they are. The majority of our clients have a sixth grade education, so that changes everything. If you're a lawyer that's dealt with mostly American, English speaking clients, you'll have a different participation from them. You know, they'll do their homework, they'll check for things, they participate in surveys, they can obtain documents and send them to you easily because they manage tech, they use email, they know how to use a scanner from their phone. Well, our Latino clientele, they don't have those same skills. And so it is difficult for somebody that's here, undocumented, working a job that's historically for undocumented people that doesn't, doesn't improve those skill sets to help you thrive in a country like the United States. So you're absolutely right. It does become difficult to even just manage an attorney client relationship, provide documents that are necessary, go to this place, obtain this evidence and bring it back to us. Oh, you know, this is not a good copy. You know, it's, it's very oftentimes basic hurdles that our clients have. And even just participating successfully with us, assuming that the money is there, assuming that the time availability is there as well. Because many clients do work seven days a week and meeting with an attorney does take time and you have to make an appointment and you have to go during business hours. And so these, the undocumented life and having to navigate the system and then do it through an attorney. You're absolutely right. Is not, it's not easy at all. Joanne Lockwood: And I would also assume that some people have fled circumstances for domestic abuse or violence or drugs or whatever it may be. And you don't stop to pick up your documentation on the way out. So you probably arrive naked from a documentation point of view. Vanessa Alonso: Oftentimes that is the case. Thankfully our consulates, you know, from other countries do provide like mobile services at time or fares so that people can obtain their documents again in the United States if they're unable to bring them with. But that's the same thing, you know, navigating, how do I get there? When am I going to get the day off? What documents do I need? How do I fill out the paperwork that's necessary? So it is definitely a challenge. I will say that the great thing about immigrants is if you think about an immigrant heart. It's very entrepreneurial in nature. Somebody that's leaving their country to seek something better, leaving their culture, their language, their family, all of their comforts, are just left to try to do something better. And that spirit is what I believe helps undocumented people overcome those hurdles and working with an attorney and seeking options and trying things. Now, they might not be the most sophisticated client, but they definitely are the most eager and the most enthusiastic about what that legal status could bring to them and their family. And I think they do that with everything, their jobs. You know, there's a lot of gratitude, there's, there's humility, like we talked about with the Latino culture in general, that the American business owners really benefit from. And I'll tell you that even in my, my own business, as an immigration lawyer, in our firm, we have six offices. Majority of our own workforce does come from Latin America. You know, we have a large global workforce that work from home. They help in our customer service. They help, you know, often digitally gathering evidence of our clients, you know, setting appointments. And I'll say that it's absolutely true. Not only is it like undocumented people that are in the us, but oftentimes people in other countries have a higher appreciation for a steady job and a fair wage. And those are something, something that we often take for granted. I believe, as Americans, I think it's Joanne Lockwood: fair to say that most people who are from a marginalised, underrepresented community, even 50% of the population of women, have a greater tenacity and resilience than if you've had it easy, your back's being against the wall, you've had to push against these threats. As early as you can remember, you are going to be more naturally resilient and we're going to fight for what you have to have. The alternative is sliding backwards into nothing. Vanessa Alonso: You're right. Joanne Lockwood: No buffer. Vanessa Alonso: Exactly. And not having those expectations is almost a benefit because I have to work for everything. What happens is great. Whatever happens is great. But there's no expectation of an outcome. There's only an expectation that I have to work hard for everything that's mine. And that, like you said, that resiliency and that work ethic often helps women. So other women leaders that I've seen, they understand at the onset, I'm going into a role that historically has not been for women, or I want to get into an industry that has been dominated by men. When it's not guaranteed, you almost automatically work, you know, double to get to just be. To just Be at the table. Joanne Lockwood: You kind of intimated this. There's a. The challenge here is that you are presumed guilty, not innocent. So when someone challenges you and people are curious about you when they're stopped in the street, whatever it is that you're looked at. And that bias, that instant interpretation of who you are overrides everything. And suddenly the hands reaching for the weapon, you know, there's a brace, people are braced up. There's a presumption of guilt, isn't there? Vanessa Alonso: Absolutely. Especially now more than ever. I don't. I don't recall experiencing it as much before and I don't recall feeling apprehensive about people feeling that way about me before. This administration has changed drastically. And I don't know if it's with the change in enforcement and the rhetoric that has been. That has occurred, that has emboldened and empowered people who do look at people as other to behave that way. You know, I have a hat that says make racism wrong again. It's so different now, what we see happening and how we see people treated. And maybe we always understood that, you know, the United States and many cult countries have dealt with racism, but I think we were, we just believed we were so much more beyond it than what we truly are. Or maybe the bad voices are just really loud right now because they feel like they finally have permission. It's really hard to tell, but it definitely feels different and it definitely feels that there's an accusation, a presumption of being undocumented, of being illegal, of being wrong, of being bad. If you are Latino in the United Joanne Lockwood: States, I think you've also exported this permission to speak freely in this way around the world. Certainly. I see it in the UK, I see it in parts of Europe where the rhetoric that's coming out of your big white building on the other side of the country is leaking into all countries where there's permission to, to speak frankly, I think it's my truth. I want to speak it, I want to say it without filter. And this belief that you are right about everything and not having to consider others, I think that's. That's leaking out everywhere. So it's a side effect of the political climate everywhere, I think. Vanessa Alonso: And that's really unfortunate because at least I feel in the United States we've done so much work to try to be better, so to do better, to treat people more equal, to include more people. You know, like when we legalise same sex marriage, you know, recent moves that have been extremely positive for some and not cost anything to the rest. And now I feel like we've switched and now we're giving amplified voices to the angry and the racist and empowering them. And we're losing. We've lost progress. I don't know where. I don't know where we go from here, especially in a country where everyone feels so divided and so unwilling to understand the other person. I think even with social media like our feeds, how we. What we surround ourselves, there's no longer a conversation of what it means to be American for Americans. There's red and there's blue, and then everyone's beliefs or their values align almost, you know, to whatever their political belief is, or there's a pressure to do so. And so it doesn't feel like it's something happening to us. It's starting to feel like it's been us all along. And I don't believe that's true. Joanne Lockwood: You haven't always had it easy, have you? People who see you bump into you day to day, they think privileged woman, successful privileged woman, lawyer, fancy pants if you like. But that's. That's not your background, is it? That's. That's. You've got real grit and you've clawed your way up as well, haven't you? Vanessa Alonso: Still clawing, but absolutely. My mom was 15 when I came into this world. It wasn't easy. You know, a lot of childhood trauma she suffered was something we had to navigate together, growing up together, you know, she was more of like a big sister that's extremely responsible and a great mom. Nothing has ever been easy when you start from that beginning. And we resided in a one and a half bedroom, single wide trailer with my grandmother, grandfather and my aunt. I don't think you even know that you're struggling or that you're clawing your way until people start to tell you as an adult and they start to say, wow, that's awesome that you've been able to do so much considering where you come from. I never contemplated it that way because that's just where I've come from. And I just know that I have to work hard and I've had to want more and I've had to push myself out of. Of comfort zones and do different than what my family has done. Often had to go against their advice or what they felt was best for me because at some point, however they're doing things is only getting them so far. And I had to be exceptional. I had to think outside the box. Once I got a little taste of that, like once you once you start to have an open mind and see things differently and just try your results are different. They might not be good, they, they might be bad, but they are different. And so instead of continuing cycles that saw my family stuck in, I decided to try other things. And I've always had a great imagination and disbelief that all of these things are possible might be like a little delusion, but it's really served me. And the only times that I've felt I wasn't achieving is when I start to listen to historical voices on success and historical perspective on access and capabilities so possibilities as well. So yeah, you're absolutely right. And even today, owning a large immigration firm, there are not many Latina women who have the size of operation that I do, who are serving the amount of clients that I am serving. I'll say that even within the immigration lawyer groups, you know, there's even difference of opinions, difference of approaches. I think at the end of the day, when we're marginalised, we have to take the parts of us that are good, the parts of us that we can build upon and just know that even just how we're different from everyone else around us, we're gonna have to approach things differently as well to get somewhere. And that's really served me. Joanne Lockwood: I was listening to the way you were speaking just now and it sounded like you were echoing other people being patronising towards you. Good girl, well done. Good little Spanish speaking girl. Grown up in poor, haven't you've done so well. Well done. You must be proud of yourself. Do you have to smile through that? Vanessa Alonso: You know, I love it, I leverage it. I believe if somebody believes I'm exceptional, it's in my favour. I don't get upset by it if somebody finds me valid because where I come from and where I'm at now, great. Because maybe that somebody can have something to offer me in exchange or maybe I'll change how they see other little Latino girls around them. So I've always seen that as a good thing. I think having a strong testimony, having a unique story to tell has been historically advantageous. And so no, it does not bother me at all. Joanne Lockwood: You play it, you use it. Yeah, absolutely. Vanessa Alonso: People love heroes. People love a come up, people love an underdog. Joanne Lockwood: So at what point in your, your evolution did you decide that being an immigration lawyer was for you? Was that in high school, was that in college or you just. Vanessa Alonso: Oh, that's a great question. Joanne Lockwood: Saw one too many injustices? Vanessa Alonso: Absolutely. You know, navigating injustices as a child, you know, the first One was my parents divorce, you know, my mom and my stepfather, My stepfather raised me. He's amazing. I love that man. He is everything that I could have ever wanted from a non biological parent. However, when it came to them too, how I saw the disparity, my mom being much younger than my father, being uneducated and not having money like he was her access to money. So the minute that that split was beginning, my mom's no longer, she no longer has resources. She's up against the breadwinner who has the money, who has the lawyer, who is trying to separate from the family and separate his obligation to the family. You know, where my mom's livelihood and her ability to parent and everything comes from that stability. And so seeing that break and how my mom was affected and everything that she had to do really made me sympathetic to people that don't have access, people that don't have a lawyer, people that don't have an advocate when they come against somebody that does. It's just, it's extremely sad to see, to see that play out. So that was kind of my first inkling to want, I want to help in this situation, situations like this. I just don't know who or how or why. And once I got to law school as the little brown girl from Texas, I was blessed with a grant that paid for my tuition. But I had to go to University of Toledo, which is in Ohio. So my hometown is El Paso, Texas, which is. We were discussing the time zones in Texas. El Paso is in the mountain standard time zone in Texas and the rest is in central. So it's the very tip. Like when you see Texas and drawn out, it's the very tip on the left. That's El Paso, that's my hometown, where I was raised with my mom and grandparents. But when I got into law school, I had to go to Ohio, which is at the very top, you know, by the Great Lakes, cold winter snow, very little Latinos. Because when we had affirmative action, that was how you got to school and you got to school for free is you have to be a brown girl going somewhere where there's not many brown girls, you know, they gotta check that diversity box. So when I got to Ohio, I was extremely homesick. It was the first time I was outside of extremely Mexican dominated city. I felt like a minority for the very first time. Like people spoke about being a minority. I had never experienced it because when you're a minority in a minority dominated area, you don't feel it being in Ohio, I felt it. I was one of four Latino students in the whole student body in the law school. So when we did things together, it was like, like the, like the cultural or diverse student group, you know, so it's not just Latinos in there, it's Latinos, it's Asians, it's, you know, it's like, let's, let's make the organisation with all the others together. And I was really craving my home, my food, my culture, my language and just feeling belonging. Honestly, I felt very much like an outsider, which was. It's a very good experience to have. I would have not changed it for the world. But that summer I did the programme with the migrant farm workers and when I went to the camps, whoa, here are my people, they're blasting music that I hear back home. They're cooking food that my mom makes at home. Children are running and playing soccer out in the yard. And I just immediately felt connected to the people I was serving. And when I would go house to house, you know, they have this migrant housing which is often like just a kind of like just one room place, like on a concrete slab, often metal, with of course, you know, heating, cooling, all those things. But they're just like these tiny little units where people live in temporarily with their families so that they can work the fields and then move when that season is over and transition easily. During these visits, I was looking for labour violations. I'm looking for people being paid in cash, people being required to work without their equipment. You know, that's what the grant was for. But no one had any complaints about the labour, no one had complaints about their bosses because they were just so grateful to have the job. And the only questions I would get were immigration questions like, do you see this? Can you tell me what this document says? Can you read it to me? Can you tell me how much longer my process is going to be? Do you know if I qualify? My sister's a citizen and I heard that a citizen can petition for another sister. So once I felt at home and then found the need to serve them is when I found the niche where I wanted to serve. And that's when I started doing immigration and I haven't stopped since then. Joanne Lockwood: That sounds like it. That's the real need that you uncover by being in that environment, to actually hear the people around you. And what you start off by thinking is the problem actually isn't the problem. It's the, the day to day stuff, the basics. Vanessa Alonso: You're right, absolutely. Right. Joanne Lockwood: So where do you think the world's going to go? Your job sounds like it will never be over. Was certainly in the foreseeable. Do you have any, any view on the future? Vanessa Alonso: Well, my hope is that there are enough people upset at what our country looks at, looks like today that are finally willing to participate and are taking action and steps towards the next election so that we do get back to the harmony that we once experienced. I cannot foresee anybody believing that what's happening today is a good job and that we are benefiting. I would be extremely surprised. And maybe, I mean people obviously close themselves off and don't want to maybe hear because they're double down on their belief. But I believe the majority of Americans are seeing what's happening, are not satisfied and see an extreme amount of money being spent on immigration enforcement and it is not solving a problem for us at all, it's creating more problems. So I hope that even just from an economic perspective, you only have so much money and what you're spending it on, is it important to you or not, you know, prioritising or being intentional with our tax dollars. I hope that, that Americans see that today our situation, we're not any better economically in spite of all the promises and the connections made to this is the best way to spend money, how it's going to benefit. The math is not mathing and I hope that's enough to get people to change what's happening. Joanne Lockwood: It's fair to say that 76 million people, whether it was voted in this one direction and a good majority of those 70 odd million people were Spanish speaking women and black people and marginalised people. So you can't blame the administration, you have to somehow blame the voter, don't you? Vanessa Alonso: Absolutely. And maybe the voter like what, what was the intention with this and was that, has that intention been played out? Because the issue is that what's being promised to be done and what's actually being done are two very different things. And when you have an administration that is not, you know, impeccable with their word, what are you supposed to do if you're not on the day to day fact checking, educating yourself? If you're just living your life and trusting your government, I believe that's one of the largest problems we have right now is that we don't have enough people interested enough in participating in the process and they are throwing away their privilege to vote. You know, I know other countries are forced to vote and we are given the option and not enough of us participate and, and hopefully things are drastically different enough today for people to want to participate, Whatever. Whatever that means to them, whether they're happy or they're upset. I just hope that there's more participation in the system. Because although you mentioned the amount of people that did vote, the amount of people who didn't is extremely concerning. Joanne Lockwood: Same in the uk, you know, we look at decisions that we make here, the people who have been voted for, and we're getting turnouts of 30%, something like that, whatever it may be, people tend to go, well, whatever I do doesn't matter. Well, hopefully we can all appreciate it does matter. If people have voted differently, maybe you'd have a black woman or. Yeah. Running the country. And how would the world look right now if that happened? You know, you never know. Vanessa Alonso: You'll never know. And the participation also, even as an educated woman, it's complex. And it's complex for a reason. You know, like redistricting and how our electoral system works. Like, somebody layman is going to feel that maybe their vote doesn't matter, depending on their location, but we need full participation to even have a chance at changing how we get to participate if we find that to be insufficiently meeting our needs of today. Joanne Lockwood: Was it Florida 10 years ago? It was six votes or something that swung the state? Vanessa Alonso: I believe so. Joanne Lockwood: Something like that. So who says my vote doesn't matter? Vanessa Alonso: You're right. Joanne Lockwood: Who says that that changed the presidency? There's six votes or whatever it was. I think it was that sort of number. So you've got to believe that you're what, you're one of those six, and that you got to vote like it. Because if everyone voted that way, then you get. You get the change you want. Vanessa Alonso: Absolutely. Joanne Lockwood: Change you don't want. Vanessa Alonso: Want. Joanne Lockwood: You got to look in the mirror and go, that's on me. Yeah. As much as I can think, it's crazy. I'm more. I'm more worried about the people that allowed it to happen by voting, not voting. So, yeah, that's the mobilisation. You don't like it, there's the ballot. Vanessa Alonso: Yep. I hope. Joanne Lockwood: And it's taught, I think, taught us in this country a lesson as well. But then I still see the rise of the popular vote. Because the popular vote, by definition, is popular. Yep. Vanessa Alonso: And if we had just gone by popular vote, we would have a different president too. Joanne Lockwood: Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yep. Right. Thank you. Amazing. How could people get a hold of you? Vanessa Alonso: Well, they can look for us on our website. It's alonzo and alonzolaw.com and that has our services and the way to reach us. And my Instagram is Avogada Alonso. Alonso is with a S, so a L O N S O is my last name. So they can look me up on Instagram or they can look us up on our website, reach out. I think our email is on there as well. So anything to do with continuing the conversation or maybe interest in obtaining legal status in the United States, we're happy to screen each person with at least a free little call to see, you know, maybe 20, 30 minute call to see if they're even a candidate for our services before we even suggest a consultation. And it's kind of our way to help in the search for a lawyer in the United States when someone's undocumented. Joanne Lockwood: Vanessa, thank you so much for the conversation. I've learned a lot. It's been really fascinating. I always love sitting in this chair because I can ask all the things I'm curious about and it's been really fascinating. I feel more educated myself now on the situation that's going on well in Texas and the US as a whole. So. So thank you so much. Vanessa Alonso: Oh, thank you, thank you for the global perspective as I'm kind of working with my head down here and just focus on one day to the next. And I know that globally we have a lot more going on than just that and this is just a piece of it. So I thank you for that perspective as well. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. Vanessa Alonso: Thank you. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? Hello, I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.