--- title: "Inclusion Starts Within" episode: 221 date: 2026-09-03 guest: "Monika Guzek" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/221-inclusion-starts-within audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-221/audio.mp3 --- # Inclusion Starts Within In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Monica Guzek to unpack the theme "Inclusion Starts Within". Their discussion traverses intercultural awareness, self-discovery, and resilience in increasingly turbulent times. Monica shares compelling observations on how Poland's transformation over recent decades has reshaped both social attitudes and opportunities for its people. The conversation moves from embracing one's accent as a badge of identity to dealing with assumptions about heritage and background, highlighting the significance of intention when asking about someone’s roots. Joanne encourages curiosity and the celebration of linguistic diversity, while Monica unpacks how joy and curiosity are not just business mantras but everyday necessities for sustaining wellbeing. Monica Guzek is the founder of Joy Flow Lab, an intercultural trainer, researcher, and coach known for guiding individuals and organisations through the nuances of collaborating across cultures and generations. Drawing upon her own experiences of living globally, Monica focuses on helping leaders and teams thrive with greater self-awareness and resilience. Her unique approach marries her innate curiosity with the pursuit of joy—encouraging others to consciously seek out what makes them whole. Monica’s background ranges from conducting workshops for corporate clients to deeply personal stories of adaptation, self-discovery, and what it takes to move confidently in diverse contexts. Joanne and Monica explore polyvagal theory as a foundation for understanding stress responses and building interpersonal connection. They discuss the practicalities of stepping outside comfort zones, reframing mindsets, and redefining happiness through small daily actions. Their dialogue questions traditional narratives about leadership, revealing the value of vulnerability and self-awareness as a precursor to truly inclusive behaviours. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Polish community perceptions in the UK - 05:03 — Navigating education and career challenges - 07:05 — Challenges in learning new languages - 10:37 — Talking about cultural identity - 14:23 — Cultural communication challenges - 18:01 — Building Trust in Business Relationships - 21:30 — Teaching emotional intelligence in schools - 25:26 — Finding Joy Amidst Stress - 28:32 — Finding Joy Beyond Success - 32:46 — Finding joy in tough times - 34:15 — Coping with uncertainty and change - 38:10 — Discussing corporate humanisation trends - 43:26 — Learning local languages reveals culture - 46:18 — Exploring your own city - 49:14 — Embracing cultural differences - 52:31 — Experiencing and discussing diversity - 55:02 — Joanne Lockwood's sign-off message ## Key takeaways - Shifting perceptions of Polish cultural identity and the transformation of Poland's global image since the late 20th century. - The powerful role of language, accent, and heritage in shaping visible and invisible aspects of identity. - Navigating conversations about background with intention, and why curiosity and respect are fundamental for inclusivity. - The importance of self-awareness and emotional literacy as foundational skills for leaders and anyone striving for greater inclusion. - Building resilience and joy amid uncertainty—reframing stress, redefining normal, and seeking small moments of happiness even in challenging times. - Recognising the influence of upbringing, education, and generational context on workplace dynamics and self-perception. - Moving beyond superficial cultural awareness, challenging assumptions, and embracing the deeper human stories that connect communities across the globe. ## FAQs ### Why is inclusion said to start within? Inclusion begins with self-awareness and understanding one’s own emotions, needs, and biases before meaningful connection with and acceptance of others can occur. ### How can curiosity support diversity and inclusion? Curiosity invites authentic engagement with different perspectives, cultures, and identities, paving the way for deeper empathy and joy in human connection. ### What role does joy play in driving inclusion? Joy functions as a catalyst for resilience and openness, helping individuals find meaning and satisfaction even amid uncertainty or adversity, which then energises inclusive relationships. ### How should we approach questions about someone’s background? The intention behind such questions matters—if motivated by genuine curiosity and a desire to connect, these can foster inclusion, but individuals should control how much they wish to reveal. ### Why might leaders struggle with inclusive behaviours under stress? Stress activates survival instincts, narrowing focus to immediate challenges and inhibiting the emotional availability and cognitive space required for inclusive, human-centred leadership. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 221 with the title Inclusion Starts Within. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Monica Guzek. Monica is the founder of Joy Flow Lab, an intercultural trainer, researcher and leadership and business coach. She helps people lead, collaborate and thrive across cultural and generational differences with greater resilience and self awareness. When I asked Monica to describe her superpower, she said that it is her curiosity paired with joy, discovering different perspectives and learning how others see the world. Hello, Monica, welcome to the show. Monika Guzek: Hey, Jo, thank you so much for having me here. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. I mean, I think the last time I heard that introduction was probably the Eurovision Song Contest. Which part of the world are you from? Monika Guzek: So I'm coming from Western Poland. I was born in Zielona Góra. I know a lot of weird sounds, but I'm living in Poznan. However, I would say that my heart and mindset is very global because for the last 15 years I lived quite a lot of places. Joanne Lockwood: So for people who are listening to this, who aren't necessarily familiar with Poland, it's grown rapidly or advanced rapidly as a culture since what, the late 80s, since the Solidarity movement, the forming of the Berlin Wall. It's really accelerated, isn't is? Monika Guzek: So if last time you visited Poland, for example, in 90s, you would not recognise where you are now. So now we are, as you mentioned, one of the fastest and rapidly growing markets, very international touch, with a lot of international companies, great, you know, motorways and places to visit and see. So very safe. So I would say that, yeah, Poland, so a little bit changed the image, you know, in the eyes of foreigners, because a lot of people still remember, you know, our past and we are in completely different place. Joanne Lockwood: Now I would say a lot of people in the UK who are maybe culturally diverse still see people from Poland as being the cheap painters, the cheap decorators or the Polish produce shop on the corner. Because we have a large emerging Polish community in lots of parts of the uk. But people always associate Poland as being maybe that country stuck in the 80s, stuck in that post Solidarity glasnost type era. But it's not like that anymore at all, is it? And the people are as rich and diverse as anywhere else in the world. Monika Guzek: Definitely. We need to remember that a lot of Polish people came to UK when you know, we joined European Union and then the borders open. So of course we were not self confident. We couldn't speak, you know, the proper language. So of course people were doing physical works and I would say this lower paid one. However, now when confident and knowing what they want, they are also now implying for higher positions. So we can see that even in Ikea, for example, one of the global positions, therefore European Union, for example, European market, it's holding by Polish person. So I would say that our images will change. Different people now start being visible in the market, in companies. Yeah. So I'm happy, I'm really happy about it because this is not only in UK everywhere. In the beginning of 2000, the one who were moving abroad, they were one who were wanting, you know, to have some incomes because in Poland that time we couldn't have the same salaries. Joanne Lockwood: Also is reflective of the fact that the Polish education system, the business, the commerces are developing people more so that the Polish people themselves are far more ready for a global market than they ever used to be. Monika Guzek: Definitely. I would say that we are even over educated a lot of time. It's a lot of time when I'm running workshops and people check my LinkedIn they ask me like Monica, when have you done this? And I was like, you know, this is when you are figuring out your wounds being post communist country and then wanting to be visible in the world and achieve something. So people just, you know, we are tough. So we always said like okay, we need to do it. So we were studying, you know, even me to be visible in the market, I had to finish the same two masters at the same time and have some extra jobs to have some experience and so on. And then when I moved to Germany, I had to, you know, kind of hide part of my education because it was too much. So I would say that we are educated, we speak several languages. However we have still, you know, our, I would say kind of shame that we don't have this British or American accent and that it's, you know, Slavic one. But, yeah, our position, I would say, changed and how we see even ourselves. Joanne Lockwood: I'm a great fan of the Slavic accent and the way you speak and it shows your culture. Um, I think if we all speak the same, we have the same accent, it doesn't. You can't surface your identity. Your accent opens a conversation. It gives me knowledge that you have different experiences to me, and I welcome that. That difference of accent. Monika Guzek: Yeah. I also love it. And I would say that I don't know how this came to me, but when I was a child, and of course then we didn't have Internet, I was always the one saying at school that why I need to speak with certain accent. This is my accent, this is my identity. I am not able to pronounce certain words, you know, natives, you. But this part of me, and I would say that this is beautiful, you know, asking, like, even, what is your background? Right. What. What is there? And sometimes even I'm laughing that some words are very challenging for me, but this is part of diversity, which we can embrace and just be enriched by this. Joanne Lockwood: But, yeah, you say that about maybe English, and I say that about Hebrew, I say that about Polish, I say that about Russian. Yeah. I look at these words and I don't know what they. I've got no idea what they say, let alone how to pronounce them. And I've met people where I'm trying to get their name right and it can really take me sort of three or four minutes to practise the pronunciation, to be able to get those kind of the rolling R's or the real depth of that word. I think what you're saying here is that when we've grown up and learned to speak in our younger years, we learn it with all those language rules and it's really hard to unlearn and to handle pronunciation of different letters and characters in other languages. It's hard to learn that, definitely. Monika Guzek: And even I had two funny, I would say, stories that some people can't recognise easily my accent. Even when I'm speaking Polish, they're trying to, you know, put me to different countries. But when I was living in China and I tried to learn Chinese, then immediately they turned and said, like, are you from Poland? I was like, how are you going to recognise my Polish accent in China? Chinese language? This was. I was amazed. But the same with Portuguese, for example. So my friends were saying, like, you speak Portuguese, but from Lisbon. And I was like, I don't know, what is Portuguese from Lisbon? And then from Porto, for example. I don't see the difference. But, yeah, they are like some small nuances, which I would say that this is beautiful. Joanne Lockwood: Right? Yeah. I've had people from America believe that I'm from Australia with my accent. So I guess it depends on your cultural awareness of different languages and that way you think. But you're right. I remember being in Scotland, north of England, if anyone, or north of the uk, if I want to listen to this from outside. And I remember going into a restaurant, I think it was a Indian cuisine restaurant. I was really surprised that all of the waiters spoke with a Scottish accent. And it was like, of course you would. You live in Scotland. Why wouldn't you speak with a Scottish accent? But my brain was thinking you would speak maybe in a more Asian, Indian accent, but they weren't. And it's like, of course you were. Why wouldn't you? And if, even if you were, if you were of Polish heritage, living in the UK for all your life, you'd speak with a complete English accent. Of course you would. You just make assumptions that people are always going to speak that way. But I guess you would still inherit some of the pronunciation for maybe your parents who are native speakers, because those are your early influences, aren't they? Monika Guzek: I think that we shouldn't be simply ashamed how we speak. We should, you know, even be curious. This is what. What you even said, what makes me, being tapped, describe myself. So I've been curious, what is the background behind this? And a lot of time I hear like, yeah, we shouldn't ask even, you know, where you're coming from. But this is always what you said, it's our heritage. This is beautiful. Storeys which are, even through our language skills, we can embrace, we can see. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but that. That question about where, where are you from? It's very much dependent on your motivation. Is it? I. I want to know where you're from so I can find out more about you, so I can welcome you, so I can be more inclusive about you and understand what makes you happy. Or is it because I want to know where you're from so I can treat you less fairly? If the intention is positive, then why wouldn't you want to share? Because to be fair to the audience, you don't know this if you're listening to this podcast. We spent 20 minutes talking before we went live about your culture, your heritage and all the things that, you know, some of your upbringing in Poland, which to me is fascinating. I love finding out about people and Monika Guzek: for me it's the same. That's why I've heard two questions, even one, it's like, where are you coming from? And then you tell me as much as you want to tell me. Other question, which a lot of time my friends hear, like where you are truly coming from, you know, and then it's because, for example, the way how you look, your skin colour and so on, this is not associated with the place, which you said. But then I think it's too much. So people should share how much they want the same. For me it's when you ask me, so I'm from West Poland, but if we dig deeper, I would say that part of my family. So it's. It's from the western part, it's from Great Poland and 1/4 it's from Eastern Poland, which makes me even very diverse. So we, as a Polish, we are also diverse. So coming from different places, even if we name the city, it doesn't mean almost nothing. Right. So. But people should have this space to share how much they want. Joanne Lockwood: And Poland's a big country. We forget that. We just see it as this place in the middle of Europe somewhere. But it's a significantly large country, north, south, east and west, isn't it? Monika Guzek: Oh, it is. So, you know, from one part to another, I need to take a train and go eight hours or even more. So it is. And some I had last year and tried to discover more places in Poland because, for example, I've never been in east. I was always saying this is too far. For me it was. It's easier even to catch a plane to go to Portugal or Spain than to go to other part of my country. I think Covid also changed this. More and more people decided to discover beauty of our own country, not just other places around the world. I think this is also coming from the hunger from, you know, communist time that the borders were closed. And then we. After that we didn't have that much money to travel. So then when we could, we just expand and start travelling. Yeah. But now I would say that more and more people also discovering Poland itself. Joanne Lockwood: It's a very old country. I remember visiting castles and it's a real history because that part of Europe, it suffered a lot of border changes, a lot of skirmishes, a lot of wars. I mean, I know the Ukrainian people are Poland nemesis. Aren't they your enemy with the Ukrainians, I think, or the other way around and not the Germans. You were fighting east not fighting West. Monika Guzek: Oh, west as well. So we have kind of joke which is, you know, more sarcastic and just helping us to survive. It's that, you know, the God has an idea to put Poland between Germany and Russia and then to see what's going to happen, you know. And our country, I would say, suffer a lot through all these years. Poland as a state was established in 962. So I would say we have quite, you know, long history, however, I would say difficult history. A lot of wars on our territory, a lot of. Yeah, things which were happening here. So we still have this in our mind, you know, this being, I would say in the lower position, but very Joanne Lockwood: influential in the 80s as the trigger for the Berlin Wall coming down, wasn't it? That was all the Solidarity movement. It was the uprising at the shipyard. That was the beginning, the end, if you like, of the Soviet Union. Monika Guzek: Yeah, yes. And we have the strong personalities. We fight for our freedom. So I would say freedom, it's something which you can really see in Polish nature. If we don't like something, we mostly say this so we are not quiet something what. I'm amazed even how strong we are that we need to remember that Poland was not existing on the maps for over 100 years. Anyway. Our language is not influenced by other languages, culture, music, literature and so on. So I would say that this fight which is inside us, this strong toughness, I would say it's part of us, it's there sometimes it's bringing challenges when we work in, you know, globally, because then we. Our feedback is very direct and not each culture is able to deal with it. And we have our. We say it Polish smile. So, you know, quite poker face also. So people don't know what we are really thinking. And our language, for many international people, sounds like we are fighting that we are always angry, which is not true, but you know, it is how it is. This is the most questions which I'm asking, like, are you. Like, are you angry or you are not typical Polish? Like. Yeah, because I'm also a lot living and working with Latin cultures. I'm a little bit different. I'm not typical one. But yeah, something which, if you come to Poland and you see our faces sometimes we might look angry, but we are not. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. When I. When we first started chatting, I asked you which part of the world you're from and you imply that your heart is now Portuguese, not Polish. Monika Guzek: Of course, in some part it's Polish. My friends, they are saying that I have Brazilian soul in Polish bodies. There is part of me which is very like. It's very Latino. When you are living in different cultures and speaking different languages, then you also embrace certain aspects of those cultures. Or maybe in other way. You're kind of hard. It's looking for something in different cultures. That's why we are attracted to certain places around the world. Some people go into Asian culture to Asia, right? Some going to UK, some to Germany, some to Portugal, etc. So in my heart I would say that Brazil and Portugal has like huge space. Then of course Poland because I'm Polish. But there's also part of me which I would say embracing a lot of German qualities. And this is related to history of my family. Joanne Lockwood: There's a danger when you are a child of the world, you've travelled and you've lived and you've been in lots of different places that you become diluted. Are there certain elements of who you are that are fundamental core values, if you like, and some bits that are kind of adaptive. What would you say were your core elements? What is your core Portuguese? What is your core Brazilian? Your core Polish? What are those things that you. Then you're non negotiables. If you like freedom. Freedom. Freedom. Monika Guzek: Well, I would say it's part of me. It's not negotiable. I am not able to live, you know, in the places where I don't feel that I'm. I'm free that free of choices, free of being able to speak, of course respecting boundaries and. And other people. But I would say that the freedom and this is part also of Polish culture. I would say the same Brazilian one that there is this common sense. Joanne Lockwood: When I introduced you, I talked about your curiosity paired with joy and how you welcome. Understand different perspectives. That's not always easy for many people, is it? The open themselves up to thinking about different perspectives. How do you tackle it as a person first and how do you encourage others? Monika Guzek: To be honest, I think that this is part of me which naturally happened. Even yesterday I was running a workshop and then I had one on one sessions with participants. Once this start opening themselves really easily and. And meanwhile they were saying like, but you know, I'm. I'm not able to share a lot of things about myself I like. But now you just. In few minutes you tell me your story and then a lot of you say like yeah, this is intuition. I can trust you. So I think that this is also something which naturally I have. I'm able to build trust and that I'm truly curious not just to use this Knowledge to, to do something. So sometimes we have this, this intuitive part which is saying I can trust this person or not. And this is mostly how I'm building business, how I'm working with people that I like to have this closeness and ability to see other person. Not just even when I working with big corporates, international one, then there's a human being in the end. So I would say that this is what makes me first just to see what is there. How can I help you? How can I serve the best for you? How we can together find this joy? And people are finding this just coming and saying, yeah, you are the person who can do it. I was like, perfect, thank you. Joanne Lockwood: You said human being in there, or paraphrase what you just said, and that is so important is to humanise is to feel, touch, embrace who somebody is. That's the real key, isn't it? Monika Guzek: And you know, with fast pace of life, a lot of time, we're forgetting about this, right? It doesn't matter what is our background and who we are at work, which role we have, which masks which we are wearing. Right? So we are human being, we have all feelings, we have some difficulties, challenges, we want to be seen, heard. So I think that this is something, what is the most important and even in diversity area where I'm of course also working, this is what I'm trying to show that this is not people. A lot of people are stressed that they use, you know, wrong sentence or wrong way of naming people. I said like just ask, it's okay to make mistake, but if you're coming from position, like what is the best for you, how we can find this connection. Right? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think you're right there. You touched on something. I think you use the word stress and our brains behave differently when we're in certain frames of mind and stress. And we know that leaders, we know that managers, people in high pressure environments don't always react or communicate in the most effective way when they're stressed, aren't they? And so how do you encourage people to step out of that stress zone? Monika Guzek: I'm working also with polyvagal theory. So we are working on our nerve systems, you know, trying to slow down a little bit. When I'm working with people, I'm also bringing a lot of, I would say, experiences that they can find themselves in a new situation, but in a joyful way. So we're playing with Lego. So this is something, what we know from childhood or some, some people are still using this and it's great. But then we are building. We are able to describe even ourselves showing a little bit this the softness. So even naming things. This is what you now said that stress it's making us being back to I would say very basic skills. So we are just running or surviving and Right. So we are not very present in emotional level. And then when I name this even with people and we start working on calming down their nerve system the way how they are thinking, what are the projections there biases we have then we are finding out that this is not really about the person itself, you know with who they need to work. It's a lot of things which they heard from media which they saw somewhere. So they are like okay, let's break it. Let's be curious. Joanne Lockwood: We titled this episode Inclusion starts within. We have to understand self before we can understand others, don't we? Monika Guzek: Oh, of course. So before I would say that everybody should have. Even in primary school we should have some classes or I don't know courses which allowed us to communicate better to understand what we need to express our needs to deal with our emotions, with our angers. And I was. I'm happy to see that younger generations are more open to this that they are teaching even a lot of time leaders or parents right that hey I'm human, I have feelings, I want this. And others they are stepping, stopping themselves and saying like okay, now it's time for me. So it's in the reverse way now we are doing this than we should in my opinion. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I never realised that self awareness was a learned skill because I think you go through much of your life being self centred. You don't necessarily think about the needs of others. Even as leaders you often think about what I've got to worry about what the pressures are on me. You're just there to. And it's not until you really truly understand self. That's the first step for me is Monika Guzek: that understanding self lucidity depends something what I'm really seeing. It's that in some cultures some people are very self centric. So of course me and what I want and this is more in hierarchical societies. But then as well it's other part which people start focusing a lot on others. So they put themselves in the last position. So then as leaders they are overwhelmed because they are taking care of people. And a lot of time I'm hearing I feel like a parent for my employees. And then depending what kind of parent you are, right. If you're allowing them to make mistakes or you're controlling things. So I would say that this depends nowadays what I'm recognising as a pattern, it's also our education. So what we took from our school system, from our parents and so on. In Polish society we were always taught do something for others. You should be the last one. I was for example raised opposite. I'm the only child, so it's also different. And yeah, so then I have these two perspectives. So we need to find where to meet each other. I would say preferably in the middle but of course it's a lot of time challenging to find this middle spot. Joanne Lockwood: That's interesting. My wife is an only child and she often says she uses only child syndrome as a kind of a mantra for sort of sometimes the way she thinks. Do you find that being an only child you have a different perspective than people who are part of larger families? Monika Guzek: I would say yes, because I'm not patient. I never had to wait for something, I was the only one. So attention was always on me. And when I'm running workshops, sometimes leaders are laughing that ah, you are one of three kids. So you are used to wait or you are used to share things. I am not. I had to learn this, of course my parents did they, I would say homework and I had to always share things with my cousins and you know, not knowing that everything is mine. But we can see this, that for example Gen Z, right, they are mostly from only childs. And then it's very individual perspective, like I want this, I don't want to wait, find time for me because this is what we are used to at school, at home and so on. So of course we can't say that everything is related to this only child syndrome. But we can see that the way we were raised then of course it influenced who we are, how we are working after that. Joanne Lockwood: So fundamentally. So curiosity is obviously a big, a big factor. You've got to want to know about other people, you've got to want to know about other people's cultures. If you don't have that curiosity, you're not, you're never going to advance, develop or be open. But another thing you talk about is using joy. Joy is kind of, that's the foundation of your, of your business. Was it JoyFlow Lab? How does joy fit into this model of curiosity, Cultural awareness, self awareness, curiosity. Monika Guzek: We can see what is joyful for us and whatnot. And I'm always saying that even if things which we are doing and we don't like them, this is a sign for us like, like we don't need to go and do it and repeat this thing. So if you don't like running, for example, don't run. Find something which brings you this joy to do so. I would say that if I have a lot of access to my curiosity, openness to things, and then I can easily see what is bringing me this happiness. And even now, living in very fast paced times that where is a lot of changes, a lot of uncertainty. Well, a lot of words in the world which influence us daily. We need consciously bring joy to our life because we are stressed, we are stressed, we are sad, we are angry, joy. A lot of time we don't even recognise, we don't recognise the small moments. We don't recognise what even bringing us dissatisfaction. Even yesterday I had, you know, conversation with one person who was going through a lot of challenges in the last year. I A little bit. It's a private, you know, connection. So I little push, like you need to go for massage, you need to do something for yourself. And this person didn't want, but in the end agrees like, okay, I would just do, you know that you let me live. And in the end they called me and said like, thank you so much that you did it. Now I see the difference in my life that I start doing. I start going to see people and so on. It's sometimes to have this, I would say, external factor which is bringing us joy. So for example, even with me, when I lived in Portugal, it was Covid time, so there was not a lot of uncertainty. I also finished my relationship. So. So, you know, in one moment it was something what I had to stop and say, like, okay, what you want in your life? There was a lot of sadness. But then I met my Brazilian friends and I was dancing a lot, you know. And then when I moved to Poland and after two years I was facing burnout and depression, I was thinking like, what made me be different in there when I was living and even that I was going through difficult period in my life, I was kind of happy, you know, I had this happiness in me. And now which I have almost everything. I have company, I'm doing projects, which I love. I have other aspects. And then I found out, like I was not bringing myself joy, I was just working hardly, you know, discussing solving problems. So that's why I started dancing again. I start painting, doing different things, which I would say, if you ask me 10 years ago, if you start doing this, I would say never. It's not for me. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think, I think you're right there. I can get very engrossed in something. I don't know if it's my thinking style where my brain works, but I can really can get absorbed and to the point where it becomes all encompassing. And sometimes I need someone to almost grab me and pull me out, say, right, we're gonna go for a walk, we're gonna do something else, we're gonna spend some time in the sun. Just to sort of flip your brain into a different mode sometimes. And that changes the brain chemicals and gives you that, as you say, that uplift, that joy, that clarity. And then you can go back into your zone and do some more work if you like. Monika Guzek: Yeah, because we need to have also space to just do nothing. Or like you said, go outside, enjoy some sun. Right. Nature. A lot of time when I'm working with leaders, CEOs on one on ones they're telling me I have everything, I have money, I have my family, it's. Well, I have apartments and so on, I feel that something is missing. And then we're trying to figure out, okay, what is bringing you really joy or a lot of time people saying like I have great career, but I feel that something is missing here. And I don't know, should I change, change the company, what should I do? And then we start, you know, digging deeper and then it's like they have dream even from childhood to have food truck or something else. And I was like, yeah, so you don't need to quit your job. You can just start doing something aside and then to see maybe this business will grow. And then you decide to change your career path or at least you try and it was fun for you. Right. So this is also about joy. So one is a small mom, but then others it's to finding the way to really start feeling that our heart, you know, it's warming up and. And we are just start shining I would say like brightening up on our faces because we easily can see if people are really enjoying what we are doing or we are just surviving. Joanne Lockwood: Just surviving. Yeah, that's where we never want to be really. Just surviving. It's thrive, not survive or not just survive. Yeah. Six years ago. I mean, it sounds crazy that Covid started six years ago. It seems like in some respects it seems like yesterday and in other respects it seems like a lifetime ago. But we, we all had to find a different way of being a different sort of joy in those days, didn't we? We were confined in fact, wherever you were in the world, apart from, I think was it Denmark or wherever Sweden, where everyone had to be Locked down, everyone was stuck. We had to find a new way of existing, a new way of discovering joy. Monika Guzek: That time I would say that I was not really discovering joy because even before COVID I was going through very challenging personal period. And this is what I also shared with you before. So I agree with myself that I stopped travelling. I will slow down, I will see what's gonna happen. And then even in Covid time anyway, everything was closed, we couldn't travel, we couldn't do anything. So I was finding joy in the small moments. I started seeing that in the garden there are new flowers, which, you know, for years I've never seen them before, or the tree is blooming beautifully. So I start seeing this joy in small moments. I was laughing that this was also the moment where I start really investing even more in myself, educating, reading books, doing trainings at home and so on. So I tried to took as much from this period as I could. But of course not everybody had conditions to this when, you know, we had some personal household challenges when people were going through losing job or not being able to earn money and so on. Although at the time I quit my current career in the corporate. So everybody's saying like, you are really crazy. I said, like, no, I'm feeling this, I'm doing the right thing. I was prepared for this. So. And then when the borders were open, just the, you know, announced opening borders a few days after, I was flying to Portugal to really embrace this joy. But something which you also mentioned that it's. It seems that it's different in a lifetime, right? It's the COVID time. It's already six years now we have new challenges and we didn't have the time even to stop and to start living, finding out where we are. After Covid it, then the war in Ukraine, I would say arise because it started even before. So now it's another global conflict, inflation and so on. So people, they don't have time to really slow down. Joanne Lockwood: And we've also got. Yeah, just to put a timestamp on this, this episode, we've now got the escalating conflict around the Middle East, the Iran, the Strait of Hormuz, the oil prices, the world is uncertain as to if the escalation is going to occur, what that looks like. So people's stress hormones, the uncertainty hormones, the cost of living, the price rises. It's a real tricky time to be a human right now on this planet. It's different to COVID, but similar sort of feelings of uncertainty. Monika Guzek: I agree. And that's why? You know, it's even when we're talking about joy, right? It's like how you can be joyful when all these things are happening around you. So I would say to find it because joy doesn't need to bring with big things. And even for me, I see this even for my clients that of course this influence my partners, me as well. However, then what we can do about, right, what is our influence and how we feel in this situation. Do we need help? I would say that something what it's different than in COVID times nowadays for all this difficulties which we are facing, people start seeing how important it's other person next to them. They are saying like, I'm happy, my family is safe or I just want to have maybe new friends. I can't talk with people who I was, you know, friend till now because it was based on business or, you know, just toughness. So something what people start seeing, it's yeah, this humanity, this is what we were saying. But close to us, not in the world itself. So the small tribes, you know, which Joanne Lockwood: we have around you mentioned toughness and resilience or as we used to say back in the 90s, bounce back ability, I think we used to call it that that's quite a valuable skill. But it's not always easy when you're in the middle of something that is stressful, problematic. How could you. How do you recommend people step back? Because sometimes you need to be a step away before you can see the bigger picture. Monika Guzek: I think the first thing, it's time we are not able to really see that something changed or it changed only in declarative level. So it's time. So if we are facing this kind of things, we need to give ourselves time and as well space a little bit. I don't want to say to dissociate from the problems, but if we are feeding ourselves with all the news and we will all the time complain about prices and things, things so then we are not able to bounce back and do things. So we can. We need to really see what we have influence on and how we can manage this, right? So even yesterday I wrote a news that airlines, they don't know what's going to happen with the prices, right? If there would be enough fuel and so on. So yeah, we might have difficulties in this freedom which even I mentioned that it's important for me. So then I'm starting redefining so what it is and what I can do. And I would say that it's. If we see that we are not able to bounce back by ourselves. We need to have support and we shouldn't be afraid to ask for help. Joanne Lockwood: I really like what you said there. Used the phrase redefining. You have to recalibrate your expectations or recalibrate your view. If you try and hold on to what you previously wanted, previously expected or previously believed, then you're always going to be in a state of stress. But if you can redefine what is acceptable for you, what works for you, and find joy in that as well, that I am now joyful in this situation. Again, using COVID's analogy, I wouldn't say I ever became joyful of being trapped in a house with no garden at the time. But I found different acceptance. This is the way it is. I get up in the morning, I do this. And my wife and I used to say the first thing we do when we woke up was shout out the day of the week. Monika Guzek: Week. Joanne Lockwood: Because we had lost track of all time, whether it was a Friday or Saturday, Sunday, Monday or whatever. So we used to go yeah, it's Wednesday. And just to give us that. And that brought us a different sense of perspective that we could track time passing and we'd look forward to what was going to be on television or what Netflix we were going to watch. And we were finding different ways to anchor ourselves temporally, if you like, than just letting ourselves wander in this big space where we had no. No anchor on it on reality definitely is. Monika Guzek: And something would differ us even this aspect how we are going through this. I would say redefining process but in the sense that we are losing something. Right. So it's how. How much we need to control. And we can see this, that for people who were easier for who it's easier to just let go things and saying like okay, I will adapt to the situation which we are now. So what I can do about it might be easier than if we try to, you know, be really holding laces and saying like no, I have influence on everything what is happening. Because then we. We do really not have it. And this is what you said that then you need to find this. The structure in something different than we were used to external world. It's not anymore a place where we can. How to say this even that we can look at this that it gives us this stability that it's predictable that we can. We know what's going to happen in one year. No, we don't. So we need to have the structure in ourselves. So if you have, you know, your root morning even routines Right. So then, you know, that doesn't matter if it's Wednesday, Thursday or any other day, then you know how to manage this. But, you know, a lot of time we are just dealing in this rhythm that are going to work, coming back, doing other things. And then if you can't go, for example, to work, everything is, you know, changing. Joanne Lockwood: Do you think the world's getting. It's a leading question, really. Is the world getting friendlier or is it getting. Getting. Are we getting further apart? Monika Guzek: I have really. I have this, I would say a little bit, you know, pink glasses on my eyes. And I would say as a human beings, even though we are stressed and a lot of things is happening, we start kind of awakening this personal level. I can see this in the corporates. They are saying like, yeah, we need to see that they are working humans and robots, that we are just humans, we not always will do everything perfectly. So I would say in this level, which people are around us, I would say that it's getting friendlier, that we start valuing who is next to us, that we might need to have, you know, talk to them, ask them how they are, ask for help. But, you know, on this higher level, which we are not influenced, we are. We have no influence on. I'm a little bit sceptical, even. Not a little bit, a lot. Joanne Lockwood: The political climate or the political discourse across the world is ebbs from right to left and centre. And I just feel the pendulum is ticking towards the right side, which means that people are becoming more isolationist, more afraid of outside. A lot of immigration concerns, a lot of people worried about this, that and the other, and a lot of that is politically driven and it's to influence the way people think. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But it's. We are getting into a world where people seem to be more divisive, more isolationist. Monika Guzek: Now, that's true. But the movement also, which I see that people start questioning a lot of things, especially when you ask me about Polish society, we question a lot. I would say that a lot of time we are even too sceptical, but we question. We have this critical thinking approach and this is something we know at these times we need to really have it, to see what is true, what is not true and what we have influence on. Because like you said, on some aspects, and they are politically driven, we, you know, we can go, we can protest. But then even in Polish situation, women rights, I would say not changing or even changing for worse, women were striking. Nothing changed or even changed for worse. This is what I said. So what we can do, you know, in our smaller group, groups of people who are really around us. So this is something what we should focus on. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, you live spend a lot of your time in Portugal. So what's going on in Portugal? I understand that there's a more right leaning political shift at the moment. Is it an anti EU shift? Is it an immigration shift? Monika Guzek: I would say it is, depending on the time, you know, when it was election, of course it was Portugal. It's as well, you know, the most pushed to the western part. So it's a little bit isolated society anyway. It's way more traditional how they think, what they do. I would say that something is also what needs to be mentioned is that living as an expat is different, that you are part of society, because if you are part of society, you know what's going on. You know, the most you, you are into politics even if you don't want to be. If you are expat ex pat a foreigner living there, you partially see things. But you are not voting, right? You are not part of society, truly society. So that's why I would say that the perspective is different. That's why I think that a lot of people start, you know, travelling, moving and being digital nomads. Because this is one of the things that you can escape from. All these things which are happening and we don't know what to do with it. It just bring in this heaviness that's a. Joanne Lockwood: That's really woken up a part of my brain because I, I spent a long time in my early career working for organisations, you know, being a manager, being an employee of an organisation. And then I jumped into freelance consulting and exactly what you said. I became unconcerned with the politics of the organisation. There were people fighting for their desk or their chair or their promotion or their right to this and their right to that. As a consultant contractor, I was just coming in, do my job, pay me, I'll leave. Thank you. And I always thought that gave me a superpower, more productivity because I was less worried about the environment and more worried about doing a good job and getting rewarded. And so what you've just said there about being an expat, it's exactly the same. You're there to enjoy and absorb the world and live, not worry about the infrastructure and how it gets there. And yeah, it's a not quite tourist mode because you're a bit more invested in that, but you're kind of not there to fix or to worry. Monika Guzek: Definitely it was the same storey with me in the companies in corporate world that I knew that I couldn't change all the company because it's not my company and I'm not a decisive person. So I decided to step out and. And be external consultant, trying to do as much as I can. Right to a little bit change. I would say the word for, you know, being more inclusive and healthy and human centre. But even last year I had discussion with my friend in Portugal because I decided to be back to Portuguese language. I said like, okay, now it's time that I really start speaking this language. I'm coming here for so many years and I want to be part of society. And then he told me, but you know, if you start speaking language, you start noticing things which before you had no clue what was going on because you were kind of as a tourist, but coming there, going to local places, just smiling because I could say, you know, like, hello, how are you? I would like to have this. But definitely what you said, it's not that touristic, just approaches to see. But if we are not truly, you know, rooted in some societies, we can't see this, these challenges. And even now, last month I was in Portugal and speaking Portuguese, trying at least I started noticing different things than before. And then I spoke with my Portuguese teacher and like, yeah, this is what is happening, this is the process. Now you see also shadows of culture, not only these bright sides, you know, as a Jung mentioned. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I suppose if you don't speak the language then you, you won't notice the newspaper headline or listen to the radio or something on the news, on the television that is in Portuguese and you never noticed it before. But since you start noticing, that's where the discourse happens, isn't it? That's where the real deep stuff happens. Whereas if you're, if you're not speaking the language, all you see is a smiley face. You don't see what actually they're talking about and you don't get involved with the debate. You can't earwig people in a cafe or whatever either. Monika Guzek: Definitely you're even not looking for these newspapers because you simply don't care. Joanne Lockwood: Right. Monika Guzek: It's like, I don't understand, so I don't need to check this. I don't know, I'm paying my bills, I'm taller and I'm open. I just want to see. So it's a little bit different. And when, even if you don't want, but you start recognising what Is happening and listening, people talking, talking. Joanne Lockwood: So yeah, that's a really. That's a good nugget out this episode. Just that conversation about this, the. The whole awareness that when you talk about cultural intelligence, cultural awareness. If we're not careful, we could be very superficial, can't we? I mean, we could be in tourist mode. I know about you as a person, as a tourist, but I don't know you as a person, as a citizen and that's a completely different aspect. So I guess when you're in Poland you have that citizen mode, even though your heart is in Portugal, but you're more citizen activated in Poland because you culturally invested in that. Monika Guzek: Yes, and I had to turn a little bit to this tourist mode to be more curious, you know, because if I was coming with the background, which I understand, I see all these shadows, you know, and people were complaining and also not good things which are happening in my country, I had to a little bit turn to this tourist mode. So my. My work is allowing me, because I'm travelling a lot, you know, through different cities, even in Poland, to work with my clients, science. And I'm amazed. I'm meeting a lot of nice people. I'm, you know, in every city when I'm coming, I have, after some work meetings, workshops and so on. I have new friends so we can go for a concert to see different things. And I believe that this is something which we also should do. So sometimes, you know, put these things which are difficult aside and start enjoying our city a little bit as a tourist. Because even through corporate times, when I was working and my boss asked me to go for a tour to. With our clients from US to Pozna, where I'm living now, at the time I was based in different city and I was like, I have no clue what I can tell them. It's my city, but I never was a tourist here. I don't know the story of all this, you know, buildings, et cetera. So sometimes if we switch to the storys mode, I would say that it's very beneficial because we see this through different lenses. And something else was you mentioned about this superficial approach. I would say that with many things we start having, or we had for years, this superficial approach and we need to start being aware how we behave, how our behaviour influence others and us and the same, you know, which choices are good for us and also for others if we want to include them. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that influence aspect of our personality is very important. And I often said to my family and people around me that there was a time in my life where I made some significant changes and I realised that in order to be loved, I had to be loved. In order to be liked, I had to be likeable. In order to be worthy of respect, I had to do things that earned that. And I suddenly realised that those things were in my power. I could control if I was likeable, if I was lovable and if I was worthy of respect. I couldn't necessarily demand of others until I invested in myself. And I think we've got to be really careful here that we don't believe we have a right without doing the investment ourselves. Monika Guzek: And this is first step even to have a happy life, this joyful life. So if we are aware and of course we are this what I said before, we are not perfect. So of course we have worst moments, right, which sometimes we are not likeable and not. Not pleasant to deal with. So but if we are aware, so then we can even apologise or we can build this connection with others and have some thoughts and next time act differently. But yeah, the work starts with us, then we can look on others, others. And I think this is what we also discuss about leaders, right? That if they were egocentric, more like, you know, looking at themselves on other people. So a lot of time, for example, in even not in Poland, but generally when, when I'm working, they're saying like, oh, this person did this to me, they are this, they are that, right? So seeing problems outside. But then this is what you said. If you do your homework, you see why maybe people behaving in certain way or why you see certain aspects in them, then you can have I, in Joanne Lockwood: the notes you sent me before the episode that you mentioned your own understanding of your own neurodiversity and how that sort of shaped the way you think about the world and what you do. When did you become kind of aware that your thinking style would be on that what you would classify neurodiverse sort of wavelength? Monika Guzek: I would say that I always was a little bit different in the way of thinking. And this is through also aspect that this is what I mentioned the beginning, that some part of my family is coming, coming from West Poland, some from East. So when I was visiting, you know, those who had east heritage, let's say I was perceived as different when and opposite. So I was always not matching, you know, with my behaviour, with my attitude. And then I just knew what I want in my life. So then I knew that I'm going to live globally, that I'm going to Go to different countries. However, when I would say first step to this consciousness came when before moving to China in 2015, I met a person and he told me, language is one thing, you need to observe cultural codes so how people behave, what they are doing, even if you don't understand. And this was my first step through this consciousness. Of course I couldn't speak Chinese. I tried to learn, it was too challenging for me. So I gave up. But then I was really observing and I had the most, most, I would say tough as well, but the most beautiful journey itself. I spent in Asia two years working and living there and this was really changing my mind, you know, from Western. So from being from Western world where we really appreciate, I would say how much we earn, right? Which position you have, which phone you have. And then when I was living in Asia, my colleagues from work, they really didn't pay attention the time to this aspects. And then I learned to be more humble, appreciating the small things. And then it was, you know, really clash. When I returned from, from Asia to Poland and through travelling in Thailand in jungle, my phone broke. So I bought, you know, the cheapest one, just to have one to return to Poland. And then my friend in Poland, she asked me like, will you change your phone because it's quite old, right? And I was like, so we are in different worlds now, so. So, you know, this aspect started clashing. So it was when I was still young, I was, you know, after university and then I would say that more and more, more I start seeing that we think differently sometimes and we see word differently so what we can do about it. Joanne Lockwood: I worked in Hong Kong and Singapore for about a month across the two countries back in the mid-90s. And it was really strange as a European person who spent all their time in Europe or in an English speaking type culture, to suddenly be into a completely different rooted culture. So the Chinese culture, the Hong Kong culture, the Singaporean culture culture were completely different paradigms to the European version. The attitudes and the whole way society is designed is different. And that was a real wake up call for me to, to see a complete difference was going to Spain on holiday, going to Germany on holiday, just a bit different fundamentally you could recognise the same sort of things. But when you're tipping to those other zones where in China, I'm sorry, in Hong Kong, I noticed that I was a lot taller than everybody and it was like, and you suddenly you're standing out. And as a white person, I was very much in a minority. And so I felt A real outsider. Whereas in other countries I may be blended in. Monika Guzek: You had the same story. I'm also very tall, so I was standing out and if somebody asked me then about, you know, being discriminated, if how can I notice as a white woman? And so I said like, I know I was kicked out from, for example, from the taxi in China because I'm white woman and men really, they directly tell me this and I was like, oh, w. And you know, then I was trying to catch taxi with my friends from. From Cameroon and Congo and they said like, yeah, but we have challenges, like, no problem, I have the same right. So, you know, through all the storys then I start seeing that in different contexts we might be this one who are outstanding in positive sometimes way and sometimes in very negative way. So I believe that my story brought me to the topic of diversity and why I'm also know I have courage, I would say, to speak a lot of difficulties. Even last time my friend asked me, like, you know, I'm running a workshop, so could you suggest maybe some video or what you're talking about, you know, in this, in this area. So like, I'm just sharing my storys because I went through a lot of unpleasant moment as well. And then I would say that we can. We know how to feel in this situation. So we then we find this courage to speak up and see that, show others that the world might look different. Friend. Joanne Lockwood: Monica, it's been fascinating. We've been chatting away for at least an hour and a half, half an hour before we went live and it's been absolutely. I love getting to know you and it's. Yeah, how can people get hold of you? What's the best way of people reaching you? Monika Guzek: I would say LinkedIn. So Monica Guzek or my website, monicaguzek.com so this is where you can easily reach me out. And yeah, also for your website now as we have this podcast. So I also would like to thank you for, you know, being here, your guest and having ability to share my Joanne Lockwood: story and Guzek is G U Z E K G U Z E K. Yeah. So anyone's looking up and I think we found each other on LinkedIn already. So, yeah, looking forward to that and visit your website and find out more about Joy Labs and Joy Flow. Yeah, Monica, thank you. Monika Guzek: Thank you so much. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude, gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to inclusion bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.