--- title: "It's never too late to be what you might have been" episode: 22 date: 2020-12-31 guest: "Amy Rowlinson" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/22-its-never-to-late-to-be-what-you-might-have-been audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-022/audio.mp3 --- # It's never too late to be what you might have been Joanne Lockwood is joined by Amy Rowlinson to explore the idea of being a “midlife beginner” and what it takes to move from simply existing to living with purpose. Amy reflects on how people can drift into careers and routines through early choices and limited exposure to options, and how stepping back to reassess values can open up new directions. They discuss the practical realities of change: responsibilities, momentum, and the benefits of planning a transition rather than making a sudden leap. Amy shares examples from her own life, including investing in learning, building financial flexibility, and using disruption as a catalyst to create new work. The conversation also looks at the inner barriers that stop people acting—imposter feelings, limiting beliefs, and negative self-talk—and strategies that help, such as journaling, focusing on meaningful outcomes, and celebrating small wins. Throughout, they return to the importance of connection and belonging, especially when working independently or navigating uncertainty, and how listening and supportive networks can sustain confidence and resilience. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Leverage experience, passion, and focus for success. - 03:32 — Feeling pigeonholed in career choices, struggles. - 08:20 — Regrets about parenting, desire for enlightenment. - 11:15 — Seizing opportunity, creating value, and finding balance. - 16:36 — Invest in personal development for lifelong learning. - 19:17 — Aligning actions with purpose transforms limiting beliefs. - 22:01 — Overthinking about goals leads to obsession. - 25:35 — We're all in different boats in storm. - 27:29 — COVID disruptions prompted positive mindset shift in business. - 32:39 — Working alone can be lonely; seek support. - 35:12 — Seeking and valuing support and recognition. - 40:33 — Belonging is about truly hearing and validating. - 44:09 — Choose between average and intentional, be deliberate. - 48:05 — Understanding diverse views, engaging in constructive dialogue. - 52:21 — Collective guesses represent a precise estimation. - 55:06 — Overcoming doubts led to inspiring ripple effect. - 56:52 — Focus on love, not fear or judgement. - 01:00:10 — Joanne hosts podcast, seeks improvement and feedback. Goodbye. ## Key takeaways - Rethinking portion sizes and independence for children as a crucial step towards their individual growth. - The merits of making informed decisions with the best tools currently at our disposal. - The value of reassessment and dedication to personal passions, a lesson magnified by the lockdown experience. - The realignment of work-life balance without trauma, and the privilege inherent in the ability to do so. - The psychological and communal impact of Covid restrictions, flourishing in 'thrive mode' under new norms. - Embracing opportunities and adapting to change with an open mind, fostering personal and professional evolution. - The celebration of small wins and their compound effect in achieving long-term goals and knowing your purpose. ## FAQs ### Who is the guest on this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast? Our guest for this episode is Amy Rowlinson, a coach who specialises in helping people become purpose-driven and values-based, thus empowering them to make impactful changes in their midlife. ### What is the main message of this podcast episode? The central theme of the episode is centred on the notion that age should not be a barrier to self-improvement or career change. Both Joanne and Amy advocate for the idea that you can always pursue your aspirations, and it’s never too late to evolve into who you might have been. ### What does Amy Rowlinson mean by being a "midlife beginner"? Amy believes that starting new ventures or learning new skills doesn't have a time limit. Her concept of a "midlife beginner" embodies the courage and opportunity to leverage past experiences for new pursuits during midlife. ### How does Amy suggest we treat children when it comes to independence and portion sizes? Amy advises that children should be treated as individuals, tailoring their portion sizes and independence to their needs and growth, rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. ### Can you explain Joanne Lockwood's personal quote about creating luck? Joanne shares her belief that luck can be created by maintaining an open mind and embracing opportunities that come one’s way, a mindset she applied to adapt her business during the Covid challenges. ### How did the pandemic affect people's ability to adapt, according to the conversation? The podcast discussion reflects that many individuals found themselves in "thrive mode" during the extended period of Covid restrictions, evolving and adapting to their situations in innovative and positive ways. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood, and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people. And simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging, and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen.co.uk. You better catch up with all of the previous shows on Itunes, Spotify, and the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf, and let's get going. Today is episode 22 with the title, it's never too late to be what you might have been. And I have the absolute honor and privilege to be joined by Amy Rowlinson. Amy describes herself as someone who is on a mission to help people become purpose driven and values based. And when I asked Amy to describe her superpower, she said, I listen. Hello, Amy. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Lovely to be here. I'm hoping not to be Amy Rowlinson: bitten on your podcast today. Joanne Lockwood: I'm sure with all our social distancing, I don't think my reach is quite that long. Jo, it's an absolute pleasure, I mean we've been talking about having you on the show for a few months now, pleased, we finally got together and made it happen. So who is Amy? And tell me why you feel it's never too late to be what you might have been. What's that mean? Well, I'm a Amy Rowlinson: strong advocate for being a midlife beginner, having created a number of businesses out of nothing at the sort of tender age of 40 something. And, well, Bites about 40, 42, 43. And in the last few years, I have really realized, having gone through a long process of personal development, that it is possible to do what you want to do and that it is never too late to be what you might have been and that who you are and what you do and what you have is all within your control. And what you want to have determines who you become and what you do. So I'm a strong believer of being a midlife beginner and switching between that of just existing to really living. Well, Joanne Lockwood: for for anyone that who's listening that knows me, I'm I'm with you on that. You know, I at the age of 52, I I I rebooted pretty much my entire life jo I know what it's like to start again if you like and and I found that sometimes when you start again you do it different, better, faster, and with more passion, don't you? Effort, isn't it, of of coming to something new as a in Amy Rowlinson: your midlife. Because, you you know, you people SEE it from the outside as being an overnight success. So actually, you've got sort of 40 years or several decades behind you. So you can leverage from that experience, and you can sort of transfer all those skills you've been amassing over that time and take it into something where you really have a passion for. And I think focusing on why you're doing what you're doing is jo important. And Bites sort of, for me, it enables you to really put some passion into that sort of life that you and business And learn from the experiences that you've had and not worry about what it is you've got to do or who you've got to impress and just do things because it's right for you. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Do you think people get kind of pigeonholed and stuck? You know, SEE if you I remember looking back and I was probably 12, 13, I didn't really know what I wanted to do as a career and I played with a bit of electronics, I did a bit of photography, I was interested in maths and physics and science but I had no real kind of what do I want to do and suddenly I ended up as an electronics engineer because I had a slight interest in electronics and Belonging little radios. But it was never really a career choice but it just kind of I ended up in it. And then I got into computing again through hobbies and I got sort of into my 40s, I think. If I look back, I'd much rather have been a photographer. That was really where my passion laid when I was in my teens. But I didn't appreciate that was a career. So you do kind of get pigeonholed either by your parents, by your early choices in exams or qualifications And it's hard to get out of that box, isn't it? I think that growing up, we we had a sort of a a Amy Rowlinson: limited exposure to opportunities. And now we've got the advent of the internet and you've got all the social media. People are much more exposed to so many different sort of roots in life and where we probably had that careers officer who said, oh, you could do this particular career or that. And then, as you said, you just sort of get put onto that path. And unless you've got a real sort of pursuit for being a doctor or a veterinarian or whatever it was, you you kind of drifted. And that's where I felt I'd certainly drifted I was, oh, my goodness. You mean I could do other things in life? Well, why didn't no one tell me? I was quite cross, to be fair. Do you think there's a a kinda agenda Joanne Lockwood: difference here where men are kind of set off in this futuristic path whereas women are kind of traditionally put on to stop that path. A kind of until you have a family type type career path. Yeah. There can be. That's how it used to be. And I went to Amy Rowlinson: an all girls school. Didn't have a huge exposure to to sort of men until I went to university. And it was only then I was sort of sitting next to people saying, oh, you study too. I didn't realize that because I hadn't Happen in that space. I'd SEE just all women. So we were empowered. And we were sort of led to believe that we could do whatever subjects we want to do. And that wasn't a problem. And then when I went to university and then going into the workplace, that was it was a really different dynamic for me. And I found it's interesting because I went into a career again. I sort of fell into it. I didn't particularly plan it. I went into recruitment. And I used to have temps working for me in London. I had sort of 400 temps out each SEE working in different roles. And they were mostly sort of admin based. So they were actually had a few guys who came to me who were exceptional PAs. And I remember really having to sell them harder to my companies at that time. And so there was a difference in in sort of acceptance in that time. But it wasn't really sort of a big thing. It was just a case of me saying, look, he's really good. Come on. Let's Bites now you wouldn't have those issues at all. Joanne Lockwood: I mean, it's interesting to say you went to an all girls school and that insight you had about you weren't constrained by gendered roles because you were all women, all girls together, sort of thing. Do you think are you an advocate therefore for separate education for for young girls and boys, or do you think there's a that that's the benefits sometimes outweigh? What do you think? Is that Well, that there are several studies that show the results Amy Rowlinson: for sort of being in a single sex school for both girls and boys. And yet both my kids are at single sex schools. However, the 6th forms are mixed. And also now they're very aware of having the opportunities for people to not to specify whether they fit into either of those categories, that there are other options. And both schools are very progressive with that, which is fantastic. And something that I have learned is that my children were brought up very much from the position that I treated them as individuals. And it was something I read very early on. It was probably one of the best pieces of parenting advice that I got, which was don't treat them equally. Treat them as individuals. Don't think that they need to have equal portions of food. Treat them as what they need and ask them, what is it? How much food do you want on your plate? Let them SEE themselves and become independent thinkers, become independent in the way that they are. And that was, for me, is probably one of the best things Wellbeing a parent, receiving that information so early on. Yeah. I mean, I think you said your Joanne Lockwood: your children in their sort of mid teens and my my children are now in their 26 to 30 SEE group. And I'm I'm I'm Wellbeing thinking, if I could do that again, I'd be so much more woke, I'd be so much more, enlightened as a parent, I think. And as a parent, SEE don't we don't really get parenting classes in that way to understand how to and what we do SEE kind of push back and go I don't want to be interfered with, I want to parent my way and I think like it's like many things in life isn't it with with hindsight SEE do things differently and I'm not I mean, my kids are fantastic. I just wish I'd been a different parent, not a better parent or worse parent or or just I'd like to Happen been embrace some of the things you just mentioned. And, I think yeah. It goes down, Amy Rowlinson: doesn't it? You you do the best job at the time with the tools that you have. And and, you know, I was fortunate enough to have picked up that particular book and and found that resource at that time. And had I not, I wouldn't be giving myself a hard time of looking back on it. It's just what you do in that moment. And the making decisions for the schools that the children are, that was the decisions I made at the time of being the best schools for them, as I believe them to be. Whether they are or not, who knows? But it's one of those things. You make a Inclusion, and you go with it, and you take that responsibility. And there are always options, always choices. And you're making these choices what you are and what you believe at that moment. Joanne Lockwood: Jo, I mean, one of the things we started talking about earlier was around this, the ability to sort of put the brakes on in in your in your life and just have have a look around, just smell the flowers and look out the window and just go, who am I? What do I really want to do in the future? But there's a massive massive breaks you have to put in your life sometimes, isn't it? Because the momentum, your your your commitments, your family, your pressures of earning, a house, all this stuff around you has momentum, doesn't it? So it's a real there's a real well, real real tough breaks to say, Happen minute. Stop. Think. Now what can I do? And and that's tough for many people. How how do people go about that? I think stopping just Amy Rowlinson: to slow down and really look at what's happening around is probably one of the best things you can do instead of heading on full pace into everything. And I think that so often people think they go from one thing at 100 miles an hour to the next. And they don't slow down. And they don't stop and just pause and look around. And that's something I found at the beginning of lockdown. Pretty much everyone had the opportunity to do that. And there have been such a difference in thereafter, the responses of people of where they've gone into different directions. And let's use the word pivot because, for the want of a better word, that's what a lot of have done. Bites it has been an opportunity for everybody to press the reset button and think, is this really what I want to do? Is this something that I am passionate about? Is this something that I am actually really interested in? And SEE, obviously, there are financial responsibilities that people have. But if you have that opportunity to really pursue something that is of true value to yourself and isn't with your values, that's where you start to find that the real magic really happens. And for me, I had that opportunity years ago when I realized that I could take the opportunity to support my husband by creating a business that would then allow him to retire. So I spent 3 years building up a property portfolio that would replace income. And last October, which is 2019, he actually did step away from his role. And that has been a huge change for us as a family dynamic because he was in a position which was really quite stressful, was not great for his mental health, was not great for the family dynamic. And yet, we'd been stuck in a position where we didn't see an alternative for so many years. For 20 years plus, that's what we thought the path would be. And then we actually learned some information that allowed me. And I then went on various courses which gave me that education into understanding that there was a different route. There was a different way. And this is where I say I became a midlife beginner and that it was never too late to be what I might have been. And for me, that and family, that has completely changed. We're all together. We've spent the whole of lockdown together. We're at home together. The children now get the benefit of seeing their father more. And he's taken over that role. And then it's given me the opportunity to pursue what I love doing, which is podcasting and coaching. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. Yeah. I I mean, you look around to the world. There are people who do have these kind of midlife crisis for whatever you want to call it and some of it is outside of their control, they get made redundant, they have an illness or a life changing accident or something or something major occurs that causes them to pirouette, pivot, u-turn, whatever you wanna call the word. But many people, unless they have that intervention, that external intervention, don't don't stop do they? And that that's it's almost like empowering yourself to to make that change without it being enforced on you is where the power should come as men. Time and time Amy Rowlinson: again, I hear of people who have had these sort of external events, as you call them, or traumas or or sort of redundancy SEE death or or an illness. And it's because of that that they then realize that, you know, what they're doing is is not what they want to be doing. And that's been the trigger, to change their lifestyle. What I'm trying to help people to do is that it doesn't have to be a trauma before you realize that you can change your direction and that by taking responsibility and becoming more self aware of what you of who you are and what you want to do is is empowering. And, you know, you only get one life. And this is where I feel so many people are just existing and they're just sort of sleepwalking through their lives. Joanne Lockwood: Carpe Diem Indeed. Certainly. But is it not a privilege to be able to do that? There are many people who who don't have the stability of home, the stability of finance, the stability of relationships, the education or the contacts or the network. So it's quite a privilege to be able to say, just stop and have a think, isn't it? I think Amy Rowlinson: I think you're right. There there is an element to that. But I think it doesn't have to be that you are changing your entire life. You could just be changing one thing. You could be switching off the TV and, as you say, pursue your passion in photography, for example. So it's just by taking the time to prioritize the things in life that you enjoy more. And then you'll start to realize that there are opportunities there to turn your vocation into a profession. And that's where the switch can happen before making drastic decisions of just quitting your 9 to 5 to do something else. There is a responsibility there to probably overlap. And and that's where a lot of people sort of don't see that there are opportunities to pursue different Bites without it all having to come tumbling down. You don't have to do it that way. It can be a balance. Joanne Lockwood: So just to add to your sort of like major major u-turn here, we can talk about Bites evolution. We can say start at me, I think the way you just said it was that you started investing in your own education, you had like a gold property portfolio, how do I go about that, let's go on some courses. So it may take you a year to invest in yourself to get to a point where you're ready or if you're gonna do a coaching course, and we all know the coaching courses probably take a year to 18 months to do the coaching courses, then at the end of that you're ready to start business, you don't have a business at that point, you're ready to start a business jo by taking looking at maybe a year, 12 months, 18 months plan of this where you invest in yourself that way you're not putting the brakes on suddenly you're already you're planning to come to a gentle stop. Is that probably the way to do it? Absolutely. I think investing in yourself and in your own Amy Rowlinson: ability to again, it comes back to personal development, which for me was just you know, it was just such a light bulb moment, such an epiphany to sort of realize that I had all these different opportunities available to me and that I didn't even know that there was such a thing as limiting beliefs or imposter syndrome or sort of, you know, to change the way that you've been thinking using anchors in NLP. I mean, there's just there's so many different ways that you can sort of shift and move and and grow. And I mean, I'm a massive believer in in lifelong learning. And I say it all the time. But SEE the Shakespeare quote that I absolutely love, which is the fool to think the fool to think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. And, you know, Bites so important to to realise that there is always more out there that you can grow and learn. And for me, I'm just going to be a lifelong sort of learner because there's so much that I don't even know how to describe. I don't even know what I don't know at the moment. So as humans, we do crave for that purpose. And I'm sure, you know, anyone who's read Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning, you know that it's bigger. There's so much more there. But once we understand why we are doing what we're doing, we have a life of fulfillment. And that's where, ultimately, I'm not saying ditch your 9 to 5 job. It's just about finding something that is fulfilling in your life. And that can be done through volunteering. It could be you know, it doesn't have to be that you create a new business. And it doesn't have to be that you leave your 9 to 5 at all. You could align yourself within a business. And this is where I do a lot of work with Parkinson's. It's a cause that I'm supporting on the podcast at the moment because it's a way of aligning your passion in life with a. So you can volunteer for a company. You can work with our company. It's about connection, and it's about belonging and understanding that what you're doing is of value to others. Joanne Lockwood: But people still get blocked by their imposter syndrome, these limiting beliefs. I mean, you mentioned that yourself. And that's a real brick wall, isn't it? Where people go, I couldn't, I couldn't, I can't. And we said, well, just take a small step. Well, no, we couldn't, I couldn't, Bites I'm too busy. I've I've not got the skills. I've I don't know anything. I don't know any. As a as a roadblocker, how can we help people overcome these sort of limiting beliefs and and it's easy for us because we've done this But it's not so easy for people who are embarking on this first tiptoe into this world, isn't it? Quite often, Amy Rowlinson: what people say they can't do, it is it is, as you say, it's a limiting belief. And it's about finding the connection between what it is they really want to do, find and twisting that into becoming a priority, but aligning the the purpose behind it so that they understand that by doing that, it's going to enable others. So it's connecting emotions with the actions and understanding what the what those results are going to be. And quite often, when you serve or help others and you show the value in that, you're seeing their end results in helping others. And that is so fulfilling. So again, you hear this quote all the time from Henry Ford, whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right. And it really comes down to does it really mean enough to you to make that Change? Because it's with everything. If you want to lose weight, do you really want to lose weight? Because you're going to have to put the effort in. And it's with all things you have to put the effort in to get results. Joanne Lockwood: For sure. Again, that comes down to finding your own why. Are you doing it for yourself, doing it for the society expects, or you're doing because somebody else wants you to? And those other 2, you know, to conform because somebody else wants you to, they're never gonna be sustainable. You'll never feel that passion. You've got to say to yourself, if you wanna lose weight, I'm not gonna eat that Mars bar, I'm not gonna have that glass of wine, because I don't want to. As soon as somebody else is putting those rules in place, you'll go, well, they can't see me, I'll start again tomorrow. So once you've learned you're only cheating yourself and you're holding yourself accountable, that's when you can make Change, isn't it? Absolutely. And I mean, language is Amy Rowlinson: so important. Our self talk is is critical. And what we're saying to ourselves on a daily basis is is a huge impact to how we can move forward. And quite often, I advocate to people that they journal and they do like a morning journal. And it's just to release that sort of self talk before you start the day. Because quite often, we have so much sort of negative self talk that we keep going and we repeat those all through the day because we have so many more thoughts. I mean, I can't remember the numbers Bites 60,000 thoughts a day, But majority of those are are repetitive. And and a lot of them also are negative. So by journaling first thing in the morning and just getting it out onto paper, you actually give yourself the permission to move on. And the self talk feels as though it's been acknowledged. But then actually Bites gone. It's it becomes less powerful on us. So yeah, it's it's really not SEE Joanne Lockwood: that's interesting because, you know, if I was to say think of a pink elephant or don't think of a pink elephant, the first thing you can't stop thinking about is a pink elephant. So if you're trying to stop drinking, you always think about not drinking, therefore you're always thinking about drinking. If you're trying to lose weight you're always thinking about not eating or being careful with your food so food, drink, pink elephants become all in your mind all the time and you can't find room for anything else to take your mind off it, can you? And that you wake up thinking about it, you go to sleep thinking about it, you're beating yourself up for not losing that £2 this week, you're focusing on that for the next week and you're constantly micro judging yourself on a daily basis rather than taking a bigger goal saying this month, I'm trying to lose £2. We're worried about losing £2 every day and we're weighing ourselves too much, aren't we? Is that is that are we over measuring sometimes too much data? Amy Rowlinson: There could be that. I think it's it's focusing on the on the outcomes and what it will allow you to do. So it's a case of I am losing weight because I am then going to be able to run to the shops or run not to get more food, but run run with the kids, you know, to have have fun or take the dog for a walk. I'm gonna be more, able to do the things that I love doing, which is and jo it's focusing on on what it is it will allow us to do as opposed to just focusing on that moment. So it's thinking longer term. And as you say, not just on that short term, eating for fuel, you know, not not sort of saying, I'm not going to eat this. It's what what are you going to eat? I'm going to eat fantastic foods that really fill me with energy and vitality. And this is this is where, you know, learning and growing and improving just takes you to that next step. And Bites so important. I think often when we're we're excuse SEE. Often when we are in the moment, we we get, as you say, we get stuck and we don't see the bigger picture. So taking ourselves out of the frame, we can then see what it is we're trying to achieve. So Joanne Lockwood: where are we now? This is like end of November, 3 or 4 weeks till Christmas, we've been in lockdown on and off or some shape of of sort of COVID dominating our lives for the last 8 or 9 months with a kind of vaccine being Joanne good in front of us but even then they're not promising anything before March, probably even the summer before anything Happen. So how are you seeing that impacting people? I mean, is it helping people discover themselves more or are people still in survival mode? How do you SEE do you see people that you're talking to find in this time? So a lot Amy Rowlinson: of people that I speak to are definitely in the thrive mode because they understand that they can become bigger than what the restrictions have come on us and that they can actually move into different ways of living. And they're growing, and they're evolving, and they're adapting. And it goes back to that who moved the cheese scenario. I don't know if you've ever heard of that Doctor. Spencer Johnson talked about, you know, the people who expect things to happen to them, you know, they they become sort of stuck in this world where it's like, who moved my cheese? Where's it, you know, where's it gone? And they get very angry about it. And those who sort of move on, evolve, and adapt are the ones that are going to be able to thrive. You know, it's a difficult situation. And someone I heard is Steve Judge. He said that we're all in the same storm, but we're all in different boats. And I love that analogy because, yes, we are all experiencing very different things at the moment. And it's all about how are we going to weather the storm? What is it we're going to be going through? Because it's not going to change. You know, external events are going to be always happening. If it's not coronavirus, it's going to be something else. So again, it's about how are you going to take it to the next level? What is it you're going to be doing? And, you know, we're never going to be in the same world that we were living in before. It's about taking opportunities and, again, having a purpose, having a plan, and focusing on why you do what you do because you know otherwise you're just going to get stuck in that daily list of chores you're going to roll in with day in, day in life. And it's about questioning, really sort of thinking about what it is you want to do, what legacy you're going to leave behind, and and how you're going to then achieve it. Because then when you start thinking bigger Joanne, you know, what is it going to be for tea tonight, life becomes much more fun. I agree. I love this Joanne Lockwood: quote. So one of my quotes, this is my own personal quote, is lucky things happen to lucky people. And what do I mean by that? Is, you know, some people have all the luck. Some people seem to have these opportunities all the time and other people look at me and go, how does that person get all these opportunities? And when I say lucky things happen to lucky people, is that you do things that make you lucky and that is saying yes to things rather than jo. Saying oh, what does that look like? Exploring opportunities. Bites, so being an open mind, a growth mind rather than a closed mind and saying, well, I'm gonna say I can't, you know, who's moved my cheese? I'm gonna I've got my own cheese, I'm gonna Bites my cheese, actually, I'm gonna share it with you, have some of my cheese, enjoy it, I'll get some more if it moves. So so don't don't treat these as obstacles in your mind. See them as as disruptions, a positive event in terms of how can I now adapt to this? So I whilst I recognize so many people listen to this podcast that have had a really poor experience of COVID, it affects them deeply and I and with either health wise or financial, etcetera. It gave me an opportunity to say, okay, I had a cry, I had a bit of a pity party for a few days and I thought, okay, I got my mind into the into the mindset that this was going to be an 18 month to 2 year thing. For I've I looked at the early data, looked at some early graphs and thought, we're kidding ourselves that this is gonna go away quickly. So I said, right, 2 years is effectively forever, as far as I'm concerned. In business, a 2 year plan is a forever plan. And as as we get into 2 years, we can reinvent it. So I decided at that point there, I needed to invest, I needed to look at what I was doing. I needed to put myself in a position where I was doing what people wanted me to do, rather than what I used to do. So my luck, if you like, was my past IT and technical experience, Wellbeing me to set up my own home studio and be interested enough in my own video, I was always into photography, videography, so editing videos, doing graphics, doing my own sort of stuff was Bites easy to me. I didn't have any overheads, I just I was just me, I had a VA, I just asked my VA to focus on different things, I automated a lot of what I did. So I I I created this kind of lean new machine and didn't I didn't mourn for what I lost. I started embracing what I gained. And that was just a mindset shift into into seeing the opportunity of the future and not hanging on to that if only, Joanne wait. Because I think some people are waiting for the boat to come back in so they can go off and do their own thing again. But that boat's not coming back. You know, we we gotta live with this as we are now. SEE, but my luck I made, I did my lucky things. I networked, I do did what I worked and I suppose I pivoted, I pirouretted, I I made a huge change 4 years ago. To me, this was just a kind of go, SEE we go again, More change. Fine. But I can imagine that's a struggle for someone that's that's been thrown into this for the first time. You've got to find that that gotta find it. Your your armband to be able to swim out. And I love that you Amy Rowlinson: shared that you had a pity party because I also had that sort of moment right at the beginning of lockdown where I had a business with another partner. And he decided that he didn't want to carry on with the business anymore right at the beginning of Lockwood. He was thinking how we could just take it all online. And so I had a sort of, a few tears. And I was like, well, I've just spent the last 18 months building up this business with you. And now it's all over. And I thought, well, actually, you know, put the tears aside for a moment and focus on what you can do. What have you learned? What are you able to take into a new space? And that's where I just sort of let the unconscious work its magic. And I woke up with an idea on April Fools' Day that actually then became the podcast. And within 29 days, I'd launched it. And, you know, it's funny because, as you say, you know, you have all the skills. You are perfectly capable of all sorts of things. And yet sometimes you don't see it. So just taking that time to pause and take it into a space where you are going to help other people, you're going to be able to take those tools and amplify them. And, you know, there's your sort of sound engineer background, tech engineer coming in and out. Amplify them to take them to a bigger audience. And that's where the podcasting is fantastic, because people all over the world will hear your message. And they will then be able to take it on board. And just by listening to it, they can play their own movie of their life to it. And they you're literally recording the soundtrack to what they then can step up and move forward and then take action. And that's what you have to do. That's that's the sort of key thing is taking the action. It's all very well thinking things and and having these sort of sorrowful moments. But unless you step up and actually put it into physicality, nothing will change. Joanne Lockwood: That's interesting the way you described your business partner as having this deep thought this this wasn't right for him. And in a way, you have almost have to admire that with hindsight going Wellbeing person said stop. I don't wanna keep doing this. This isn't gonna work for me. So in a way, it's disappointing for you. But in in the same respect, you must have you must have immensely respected the person to to to stop and and and move in different ways. I'm actually really grateful. In my Amy Rowlinson: first episode, I thanked him deeply because he saw something in me that I hadn't seen. And he knew that it was right for both of us. And again, I'd been sort of swept up with the momentum and not really sort of questioned things. And jo, no, I'm very grateful for that decision that he made because it did allow me to then step up into a different space that I am absolutely nothing. So sometimes the disappointing moments and the decisions that you feel are out of your control actually do serve you really well. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I know doing what I do, I I do find it sometimes quite lonely working on your own. I miss I miss sort of, like, the the teamwork, the collaboration on things sometimes we so then it goes Wellbeing you have this joint celebration, the high five ring the bell, yay, did really good today. And if you're having a down day, there's people to give you a hug and jo so having been doing this for about, what, 3 or 4 years now, I still get those high immense highs and immense lows. But how I've overcome that is by having a network, friends online, Zoom calls, chats, conversations like this, Wellbeing, I suppose, being authentic and vulnerable with people I speak to is sort of like I'm having a bad day, I'm having a good day, sometimes I overshare on social media And sometimes I, I share my passions or I share my sadnesses. So I think that's quite important that people are going off on their own, they need to find their kind of that their, their little cheerleader on the, that sits on their shoulder every so often and gives them a bit of a rah and someone can give them that hug when they need it. That's kinda, quite a brave thing to do sometimes, isn't it? Just setting off on your own. Absolutely. And and you're absolutely right in in Amy Rowlinson: sharing the authenticity online of of not being this sort of 2 dimensional person. You are a real person. And you're talking about all the problems that we all face, that we all have different problems. We're all in different boats. But by sharing the fact that we're not perfect, that things don't always go well, you know, that's when people really do warm to you and sort of recognize that you are not trying to sort of hide behind this sort of mask. We're all hiding behind a mask for a very different reason at the moment. But we do sometimes hide our true selves. And it's about showing who we really are online as well as offline. And, yeah, if we need a hug, reach out for 1, albeit a virtual one right now. But if you need it, ask for it because people will gladly give it. And I think people get sort of stuck in that rescuerpersecutorsort of victim triangle sometimes and realize that we're constantly moving around them. But how do we actually sort of step outside of it? How do we sort of move into a space where we can be, you know, in at one with ourselves, but also show that other people that we are all of these people at all different Bites. Joanne Lockwood: Mhmm. I think for me, it's important to have this supportive bubble around you. And I, I mean, we're probably a member of similar Facebook groups or we we probably bump into each other quite a bit on LinkedIn. And sometimes I just wanna say, look at what? Look at this testimonial I got or I've done really well this week and it's not it's actually not about being self servant serving, it's not about pointing the finger and look at me everybody I'm fantastic Bites going please could someone just go yo Jo, carry on, well done, you're doing fantastic, that's what I want, I'm not after anyone I'm thinking it's SEE talking to self emotion, it's me just saying, someone please see me, someone please say hello, someone please go well done. Because otherwise, you just don't get to do it. I've yeah, like you, I speak at conferences and run training courses all over the world and you often just get the end of the conference the line goes click zoom window closes and it's like is that it no one's going to give me a hug or say well done Jo and sometimes you just need that though, you need that job well done and unless you give it to yourself, no one else is going to do it and I think sometimes we just need to find a a bubble or a circle or a little load of friends who are prepared to just give each other these hugs and go 'yay, well done' Even if it's just a little care emoji or the little love emoji and just SEE, girl jo, you've got this. And it just gives you that boost, doesn't it? It's like that that virtual glass of Prosecco comes your way and you go, I feel better now. Thank you. Well, it's it's with all those moments and, you Amy Rowlinson: know, even even if you had been at that conference, the moment this as you walk out the door or you go back to your sort of hotel bedroom and you're on your own again, there is that sort of real moment of it comes down and the high suddenly just sort of drops. And we love the connection. And that's what, you know, we're always seeking that sense of belonging. We're always seeking the networks to support us. And, you know, absolutely ask for someone to to give you that recognition that you deserve for that testimonial, that fantastic delivery of the conference because, you know, why not? Because you would do it for others. So why not ask sometimes to say, give me a high five because this is awesome and be proud of what you've done. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. It's it's about where you were and where you've become and where you're going as Wellbeing and recognizing and celebrating all those little wins along the journey 100% because if you if you just keep on wanting that big. Moment, it's never going to come so recognize all the little steps I'm constantly celebrating, you know, all the little moments because that's what's really important in life. The other thing I Joanne Lockwood: learned was that I was getting these kind of real down days. And I was having these really, really, really big highs. You know, I'd close a deal. I I get booking. I'd something would happen. It was amazing. And the next day, I'd be really, really kind of, like, down, miserable, despondent. I started looking at it and I started realising that I was these massive great highs, these brain chemicals, these dopamines, endorphins, all these things going the thrill of the chase, the catch, the cell, the well done, the next day you wake up and those brain chemicals are are not there anymore and you go, I want more, I want more. And that's where the this fit response SEE, oh, I'm not good enough anymore. Nobody wants me today. It really was affecting me. I had these big swings. It's only when I started really trying to analyse it, I saw what was Happen. These big highs turning into big lows. And what I needed to do is step back and recognize that the world is no different than it was when I went to bed. There's Bites happened is these brain chemicals have gone. And I was as positive the word is so everything's going as well as it was yesterday, just today I haven't had that high. And that's quite a big thing when you're on your own or you're embarking where you have all these wins. You've got to be ready for the crashes as well, haven't you? Totally. And I think that's Amy Rowlinson: a really important message about sort of around mental health as well is is to have the understanding that, you know, life and your support network is so crucial to to you, to have the people around you, just to have those sort of regular calls with people, just check-in on them. And one thing I've done with quite a few people over lockdown is just say, you know, what is it you need that I could help with? How could I help you? This is a friend. And this isn't as a coach. This is a friend. You know, because I know a lot of people who are at home alone. You know, they're not in a family dynamic. I have the benefit of sort of talking through my day with everybody at the end. And that that really makes a massive difference. But when you're on your own and you haven't got anyone to say, you know, today wasn't a great day and, you know, I just want to have a little chat about Bites, and then for someone else to sort of listen. And you introduced me right at the beginning and said that my superpower was listening. And I know that I'm talking today on the podcast with you here. But quite often on my podcast, I simply listen because I'm listening to other people share their stories. And when I'm coaching, again, it's all about listening. And actually, that's probably something that I just would advocate to everybody is just listen. You don't need to offer solutions. You just be there for someone and just listen to them. Because quite often, just having that space for someone to talk things through and and and talk it out is is as valuable as you can get. I agree, Kavith. That's one Joanne Lockwood: thing I talk about a lot in my DNI world, the sense of belonging. You you belong when people hear you and they truly hear you. They don't just listen to respond, they actually listen to hear you and acknowledge you and validate you and ask you for 'okay', and it's not a kind of, you're right, I'm alright, you're right. This is a real SEE. And one of the things I think we've all learned from Lockwood, is that those old old superficials how are you doing conversations used to be like 2 or 3 seconds in the old days when we met each other. Now how are you doing is a 20 minute conversation where we are more willing to be vulnerable, we are more willing to because, you know, even though we're in the same storm on different boats, we are we are still in the same storm. We can still talk about the lightning, the waves, the the the pressure we're feeling, and we we can all relate in a way to each other. So I think we've got we have got, like, a shared narrative now. And no one no one is immune from this. I think that gives us a great bit of solace to be able to say well actually, jo I'm struggling. Now I've got elderly parents or I've we've, a close friend has tested positive, I've now got to isolate or I'm worried about my children, I'm worried about I've got to go to London tomorrow, I'm worried about getting on the train, got all this anxiety about going back into the office now. So we actually haven't there's enough people in our circle that we can share these things with, whereas SEE before, we've had more isolated maybe. So COVID in a way has also given us a much more bigger shared experience we Happen can share. Yeah. I totally agree. And Amy Rowlinson: with sharing it and understanding that, you know, it is affecting people differently. And I mean, you only have to sort of don't I'm not a big news watcher. I don't like watching the news because I I find it it very negative. But when you do sort of see the stories and hear the stories that people are sharing, I do realize that, as you said earlier, that I probably am in a more privileged position. But I have spent years putting myself into that position. It wasn't always the case. And understanding that we all have the opportunity SEE. We all have different opportunities to do different things and show our love to others in different ways. And coming back to that sense of belonging, becoming a member of a particular network has probably been the best thing I've done. And I'm in several different networks because I have different interests, and I have different sort of worlds where they all sort of collide in one way or another. Bites when I was speaking to you before II am in different worlds, I'm in a property investment world. I'm in a speaking world. I'm in a coaching world. I love dogs. Jo I have, you know, a huge spaniel world around me as well. And Bites I have different conversations with different people. And we all have different interests. But again, it all comes back to supporting one another. And something that I've been very mindful is the amount of what we hear in terms of negativity in that environment and how often it can sort of come in and affect your world. And so I've been quite conscious of filtering out the negative elements in my world and focusing on those people that bring value and positivity to my world. And Bites something that Jim Rohn says is that we become the average of the 5 people SEE spend the most time with in terms of our health, our wealth, our mindset, SEE way we dress, the way we speak our language, everything. And so I challenge you to think about who are those 5 people that you're spending the most time with and what value do they bring into your space. And also Joanne Lockwood: whether you're comfortable being that average, is is the average you're becoming the average you're meant you you know, we we talked about who you want to be or or how you want to be and what you want to be. Is that average? Are you doing that through positive choice or by osmosis? Are you out of control? And maybe that's where some of us are having to push stop and pause because we suddenly find ourselves drifting off course and gravitating towards these 5 people or the or or our echo chamber And really, we need to move away to a different group of 5 people Joanne average somewhere else or set our own path and bring people around us. And I think maybe that maybe that's the challenge that we're uncovering here is that we drift into this this osmosis with our with our network whereas I think as you said you've you've got always multiple intersecting networks of your work, your property, your your your dogs, your your coaching which gives you a different sort of average than maybe people who are just thinking about their work or just thinking about their hobby or just thinking about parenthood. And you also have to be mindful that sometimes you Amy Rowlinson: can get into a network or you have too many people in that space. And you can actually serve nobody because you're trying to juggle too many different relationships. And it's something that Professor Peters mentions in his book, The Chimp Paradox, is that your troop size actually gets too big for you to be able to maintain. And this is something that's really important. It's about focusing on some really solid relationships and helping the people around you in the way that you can really give them their attention. It comes back to listening again. So yes, absolutely true about who are the people and are they the right people. And as what I said right at the beginning about that sort of stopping and pausing and you just said it again, and being in control and being self aware and taking that responsibility for your life. Because actually, it comes down to you. Nobody else is going to do this. You can't expect anyone else to sort of rescue you. It's you who's able to change the things that SEE happening. Having that shift in mindset that things aren't happening to you. You are in control. And SEE, lots of different external events will change the way things happen to you. And there are lots of things that are going to be difficult in your life. But it's a case of just having them or seeing them as being on your way and not in your way. Mhmm. I think Joanne Lockwood: many of us have been surprised by some things that have gone on in the world where we had a view of what we thought was gonna Happen, and it didn't. Whether that's Brexit remain, whether that's politics in the US, whether it's, Middle East, Israel, wherever that may be, whatever. And I've I've learned that we're not careful, we think we've got a diverse network Bites we do homogenize around this echo chamber where people tend to have the same conversations because naturally, we tend to lean away where someone's saying things we don't want to, we react or we mute them and we spend a lot of our time listening to what we wanna hear. And one thing I like to do is Change people to actually open the doors and put your ear and listen to what you wouldn't normally listen to. You don't necessarily have to engage, you know, you're not gonna necessarily understand or agree Bites just under but just know what other people are saying, why they're saying it. And if SEE look very simply, if 70 odd 1000000 people voted for 1 candidate in the US election and 75, 76 people million people voted for the other candidate, Clearly, 70,000,000 people is a lot of opinions that don't necessarily agree with you or 76,000,000 people have voted. There's a lot of people who agree with you or whatever, however, however you your politics works. So you can't dismiss either side or either opinions being invalid Because clearly, a lot of people believe that. So I think being engaging in creative doubt, engaging in in a way where you can understand why people feel that what what's, what caused them to have that view? What was in it in that message for 1 person that resonated? What was in the message of the other person that didn't resonate? Why do you feel you need this person to help you in your life? And we can look at the same with Brexit, remain, whatever side of the fence you want. Some people are passionate about 1, some people are passionate about the other. And so both messages resonated almost equally with people. So again, it's it's putting yourself out of your echo chamber to listen to the the workings out of the people who disagree with you in a constructive way, having those those those debates, having those discussions in a safe space where you feel you can kind of incorporate others people's narratives into your life. Otherwise, you just constantly live in this act, as you say, the average of the 5 or the the echo chamber you're in, would ever really understand the rest of the world. When we think about, you said right at the beginning about treating your children with equity rather than equality, if you like, you know, you give them what they SEE. We also need to understand what other people need and what other people feel and what other people have they're scared of and sometimes they this their fear is coming out in the way they vote for the way they align themselves. So I think it's very important that yeah, listening is really key to understanding how people are feeling and why people feel the way they do. Totally agree with you. And Amy Rowlinson: I I love hearing different perspectives. And something that I talk about is I heard this description. It's absolutely fantastic. And it's about a beach ball. And the beach ball, the sort of old fashioned one, which used to have the 6 colors. So you've got your orange, white, blue, green, yellow, and red. And if you hold that beach ball and you're facing it, what you see is you see 3 colors and the other person across the way sees the other 3 colors. So you're describing things very differently. But actually, you're talking about the same thing. And sometimes, this is where you may have similar or sort of different perspectives. And yet you could actually be talking about the same thing. But it's challenging and others to sort of really think or really feel or really hear or see what the other person is thinking about something. And this comes down to communication. It comes down to, as you say, the difference in opinions. You could actually be talking about the same thing or have the same values. But you're coming from it from very different perspectives. Yes. Joanne Lockwood: And as I say, there's the equation is SEE plus r equals o. You have an event, you have a reaction, leads to an outcome. But the difference is how you perceive that event, how you react it causes you to react in Diversity way, therefore, it leads into an outcome. So 2 people could have a Diversity view of the same thing. And therefore the parts are different, which is why I always talk about showing your workings out, tell me why you perceive it that way, not just you perceive it that way, then we can then we can agree that actually we have the same motive, we've just come to a different conclusion, based on lived experience, our perspective, or something that I don't know about you or you don't know about SEE. And that that's where it's it's that's where we need to be curious to know why someone thinks that, not what they think. It's fascinating. And, you know, having studied Amy Rowlinson: NLP and and understand sort of, you know, the different maps that we have and how we all sort of have very different worlds that we all live in because of our experiences and our beliefs and our values, you know, it really is a fascinating topic to know that if you had, you know, 100 people or a 1000000 people even in one space, they're all seeing and thinking and and hearing different things, even though they're in the same location. And it is fantastic. I find that fascinating, absolutely incredible. And with that, again, we're all in the same world. But we're all having very different lives. And that's where it comes back to having the diversity and Inclusion. I just I am fascinated by the lives that other people are living. This is what you say Joanne Lockwood: about that. There's a there's a study, wasn't it? If you ask a 1,000 or 10,000 people to to guess how many sweets were in a jar, that you average every answer and the average is likely to be the correct answer or the the more people you have contributing, the more likely the average of the answer is gonna be correct. And they did a similar thought of thing where someone got lost at sea SEE they asked everybody to guess where they thought this person might be based on the evidence. And it turned out the average of where this person was was very close to where they were. And, it's fascinating that you because because I suppose in the human psyche, we all come up with very wide guesses left, right, too high, too small. But we all kind of homogenise around the kind of the average Joanne. And it's jo as much as we think we're escaping our programming by by doing this, we actually come to maybe a more succinct view of the world which is a a combination of everybody's opinions is what is where the truth lies. I guess it comes back to belonging. Yeah. Yeah and connecting because that's what you know. That's what we we Amy Rowlinson: essentially want to do. We want to have that sense of belonging and yet you know we also want to stand out. We want to be heard. We want to be we want to be different. But we also want to connect. So there's there's always a bit of a juxtaposition there. Joanne Lockwood: So So we we started off with the podcast. You know, it's never too late to be what you might have been. So would you see the difference between that and who you might have been? Is that a what or who? Yeah. Is there is there a difference there? I think there's a great difference, a great semantic sort Amy Rowlinson: of difference there. So if you if you are thinking about who you might have been, that's, you know, who you are as a person who who you are and what is it you're and then and then the what is what is it you're going to do to become that who? So it's it they're linked heavily. And for me, it's it's again, it comes back to the sort of the journey that we're on and, who we become is very much as a result of our actions and what we do. And it's fascinating. I could talk about this all day. In terms of what what we're doing on an everyday basis and how how we can make that impact. And it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't matter what it is that we're doing. It's knowing that it is a value to other people. It's a value to to those who you're serving and for SEE, I was I was I felt that I was drifting and that I was volunteering. And I was a mom. And Bites I knew that there was something else that I could do, but I just didn't know how. And again, you know, jo it's the who, the what, and the how. And then it was finally sort of connecting those Bites. And I realized that I was able to do so many more things. And it was it was it was a difficult process. It wasn't easy. You know, it was it was a who am I to do this? And then it was like, well, who am I not to do this process? You know, you're constantly in that battle of, you know, well, I'd like to produce a podcast. And, well, why would you? Who would listen to you? And then it was like, well, why wouldn't people listen to you? The whole sort of again, I talk about the imposter syndrome. And just by sort of showcasing other people, it has enabled people all around the world to speak out, to change what they're doing, to be inspired and take the action that they've been wanting to. And this is what's happened as a ripple effect of me stepping out of that comfort zone into that growth zone. So when you say it's never too late to be who, you might have been, well, if the podcasting was who, the what was by being a broadcaster and doing it and creating this show that I have has allowed other people to listen to the stories that people share on that show. And then as a result, other people Happen then said, well, if they've done it, well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to write that book that I've always been saying I was going to do, or I'm going to create my own show and do that. And as a result of that, you know, the ripple effect keeps on going. And you know, you just never know what you're going to and who you're going to impact by what you do. And that's what I love. And, you know, your show, Jo, you may never even hear of the impact that you've made on somebody because they may not reach out to you. But those that do, and you know, I hear you told me earlier that lots of people reach out and share what they have done by listening to your show and what impact it's and how it's helped them. Think of all those people that haven't reached out and you've helped. For sure. And you're so Joanne Lockwood: right that we we constantly sort of judge ourselves and SEE, what what if people don't like me? Rather than saying, what if people love me? What if people love SEE? And then start with that. You're talking to the people who want to hear from you, you're talking to people who do love you. And if people don't wanna listen, that's fine. Don't worry about them, worry about the people who do. I'd rather have 2 people who love me and 98 people who don't and then the 2 people are passionate. I've made a difference As long as as long as one person listens and one person cares, that's what we're here for, isn't it? And, I yeah. Don't beat ourselves up about about the 98. Just celebrate the 2. Yeah. And those 2 will become evangelists and those twos will become 4, will become 8, will become 16. So focus on what you do well and not worry about the and not worry about other people's negative opinions or your own actually most of it is your perceived opinion of what other people think. You're actually making stuff up about people. You're prejudging things yourself. Yeah. That's Change. Perception and projection, Amy Rowlinson: dangerous. Absolutely. You know, don't don't think your mind reading. Just, you know, ask ask people for what it is they're actually thinking. And just by starting small and and focusing on small changes in your life and taking the small actions each day. I mean, we all know the power of the compound effect and how it can make a huge difference. This is why just knowing your purpose and having a plan for me is so crucial because, you know, then there's direction. There is that focus that you you're talking about. And it's simple. Just focus on why you're doing what you're doing. Joanne Lockwood: Well, on that note, Amy, thank you so much. I'm sure everyone listening will agree there's much to ponder and take inspiration from. How could people get in touch with you, if you like it? Well, thank you Amy Rowlinson: very much. It's been an absolute pleasure being on the podcast today, Jo. SEE, yes, people can keep in contact with me. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. I'm on Instagram. I've got my website. So, yeah, please reach out. I'm sure you'll include all the links in the show notes. I will do. And tell everyone briefly about your Joanne Lockwood: podcast. So what is your podcast? The podcast is called Inclusion Amy Rowlinson: Why. And it's relatable, uplifting, and inspiring conversations with people from all walks of life just simply sharing why they do what they do. So if people wanna listen to more about Joanne Lockwood: your own message and the people you talk to, then tune into that podcast. I'm gonna subscribe later and have a listen to some of those episodes as well. So thank you, Amy. https://amyrowlinson.com Bites your website. I'll put them in the show notes as well. Connect on Inclusion, say hi. I'm sure Amy would love to hear from you. As would I, of course. So a huge thank you to you, the listener, I'm I'm I'm hoping I'm sure there's more than one of you out there. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast, that B-I-T-E-S. Please tell your friends, if you have any, and your colleagues, if you if you're not working alone at home. I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks or months. Remember also if you'd like to be a guest yourself then please do let me know. As always, I'd welcome any comments, feedback, suggestions to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. Tell me how you can improve. Tell me what you like. Tell me what you hate. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. It's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.