---
title: "Scaling With Clarity"
episode: 219
date: 2026-08-20
guest: "Amanda Rosazza"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/219-scaling-with-clarity
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-219/audio.mp3
---

# Scaling With Clarity

In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Jo explores the theme of “Scaling With Clarity” alongside Amanda Rosazza. Together, they examine the art and science of building scalable, people-centred organisations—balancing robust systems with the flexibility to accommodate diverse personalities and working styles. Their discussion is rooted in the belief that emotional intelligence and cultural awareness are vital and learnable skills for leaders aiming to foster true inclusivity. The episode delves into the subtle tensions between structure and agility, celebrating wins in meaningful ways, and the challenges of navigating difficult conversations that shape high-performing, values-driven teams. Amanda is a business strategist and leadership advisor, specialising in helping founders and leaders design scalable, structured companies that centre humanity and sustainable culture. She blends a sharp strategic mindset with creative innovation, enabling leaders to architect systems and cultures where clarity does not come at the expense of people. Amanda draws from frameworks developed within the Reach ecosystem, guiding businesses beyond surface-level profiling tools. She equips leaders to understand the real person behind the profile and to enable every member of a team to do—and want to do—their best work. Amanda’s experience spans from embedding company values to transforming onboarding, cascading culture through developmental programmes, and empowering leaders to facilitate honest dialogue. Jo and Amanda examine the pitfalls of rigid “culture fit” criteria, the necessity for flexible SOPs, and the risk of tolerating brilliant but toxic employees. Their conversation navigates the importance of rapid values alignment, self-awareness, continuous feedback, and the need to reframe what leadership and belonging should feel and look like in practice. Their real-world examples—from funeral directors to global banks—provide nuanced insights into aligning aspirational culture with lived experience at every level.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Interview with Amanda Rosazza
- 06:17 — Understanding diverse workplace mindsets
- 08:56 — Understanding others' perspectives
- 12:41 — Facilitating cultural programmes
- 15:07 — Creating flexible SOPs for success
- 18:15 — Evaluating team development strategies
- 21:00 — Effective onboarding and cultural fit
- 25:42 — Importance of cultural fit
- 26:46 — Learning from funeral directors
- 30:37 — Banking crisis in the 90s
- 33:00 — Improving corporate communication skills
- 38:02 — Manager biases in tough conversations
- 40:20 — Addressing punctuality issues
- 43:58 — Assessing company values and vision
- 46:05 — Identifying disconnects in business perception
- 52:05 — Disconnect between goals and reality
- 55:57 — Focus on gradual improvement
- 57:29 — Closing thoughts and appreciation

## Key takeaways

- The pitfalls of applying a one-size-fits-all approach to systems, and why understanding diverse working styles unlocks team success.
- Practical tactics for moving beyond personality profiling tools to deeper individual and team engagement.
- Why emotional intelligence and cultural awareness are learned skills, and how to develop them intentionally in leadership.
- The necessity of frameworks that support both rigorous standards and the flexibility for people to do their best work.
- Effective approaches for recognising and addressing toxic behaviours or misaligned hires before they undermine organisational culture.
- The critical difference between genuine culture fit and exclusionary or performative practices, and how to foster meaningful belonging.
- Real strategies for starting and sustaining brave, honest conversations—especially when difficult feedback or change is needed.

## FAQs

### How can leaders foster a high-performing and inclusive team culture?

Leaders should recognise that individuals are wired differently, embracing varied personality types and working styles rather than enforcing a one-size-fits-all approach. By creating environments where everyone is set up and wants to win, leaders lay the foundations for inclusive and productive teams.

### What’s the difference between ‘guardrails’ and rigid standard operating procedures?

Guardrails enable flexibility by providing essential boundaries for success, allowing team members to play to their strengths while still delivering consistent outcomes, whereas rigid SOPs dictate one fixed path and can stifle innovation or engagement.

### Why is “culture fit” often misunderstood in organisations?

Culture fit is not about replicating sameness or enforcing uniform behaviours; done well, it is alignment with the organisation’s purpose, values and mission. When mishandled, it can become a mask for exclusionary or toxic practices.

### How can managers approach challenging or difficult conversations effectively?

By starting with curiosity and compassion—listening, asking open questions, and understanding the context before giving feedback—managers build psychological safety and open the door for honest, solution-focused dialogue.

### What role does onboarding play in sustainable performance and belonging?

A robust onboarding process, which rapidly aligns new hires with organisational values, behavioural norms, and clear expectations, increases the chances of engagement, performance, and early identification of any misalignment.

### How should organisations address the gap between stated values and actual employee experience?

Regularly overlaying staff survey feedback with the company’s values and EVP, and acting swiftly on identified discrepancies, helps ensure that everyday experiences match the brand’s external promises and internal aspirations.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 219 with the title Scaling With Clarity. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Amanda Rosazza. Amanda is a business strategist, leadership advisor who helps founders build scalable, structured, human centred companies where clarity, culture and sustainable growth go hand in hand. When I asked Amanda to describe her superpower, she said that it is combining strategic thinking with creative innovation to help leaders build smarter systems, grow stronger cultures and businesses that grow without burning people out. Hello, Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda Rosazza: Really excited to be here, Joanne, thanks for having me.

Joanne Lockwood: Absolute pleasure and I love chatting. Before you turn the mic on in the green room, you told me a bit about where you're from. So where are you from in the world?

Amanda Rosazza: So Brisbane, Australia. So down under, for those playing at home.

Joanne Lockwood: So Australia down under. It's a big place down under, isn't it? I mean, Brisbane. So is that. That's east coast, is it?

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. So we're east coast, sort of a little more than halfway up in Queensland. So pretty nice weather at the moment, but we're starting to head towards winter, so it's going to get a little chilly.

Joanne Lockwood: We're just coming into a hot bit.

Amanda Rosazza: Yay. I much prefer warmer weather.

Joanne Lockwood: Doesn't get that hot, you know. Is Brisbane quite warm? If you look back in Northern hemisphere terms, that's like south of France. Is it? That's where it gets quite warm and sunny.

Amanda Rosazza: It's kind of subtropical. So I'm just trying to think for Europe. Yeah. South of France. And I always say Florida, if you think of Florida.

Joanne Lockwood: Sticky lightning.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. Humid. And as much as we say it's going to get cold, it's our version of cold, which is not very cold at all really.

Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so you are kind of med. Yeah. Mediterranean, south of France, Spain type. Temperature. Very nice.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. Yes. And then the further you go up the Queensland coast, the more like tropical. Tropical it gets. So like Gold coast when you get off the plane feels like bang. Yeah. Heat. Heat smashing you in the face.

Joanne Lockwood: I remember that. That feeling. I was. I went to Cairo to look at the museum and we did the coach tour and we saw the pyramids of Giza and the Sphinx, all that kind of thing. I remember we sat in this coach for about an hour and that we got off and they opened the doors and it was like literally pulling the oven door open, sticking your head in it.

Amanda Rosazza: It's real.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes. It's. It's offensive. It's a lot. And if you're not prepared for it. Yeah. Adjustment period required.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I also went to the Dead Sea and swam in the Dead Sea, the one where you float. And that was. The water was something like 40. Now the temperature, air temperature was like 47 degrees. And it's like, boom. And then so you're getting in. You're getting in the water. To think I'm going to get some respite by keeping cool. But the. The water was even hotter than the air temperature. It's like everything is just too hot here.

Amanda Rosazza: Oh, my goodness. That's crazy. But still recommend. Definitely worth swimming in the Dead Sea.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The whole. That whole area. It was in. It's in. We were in the. Israel. Israel side of the Dead Sea and we went to a place called. I think it's called Masada, which is a. Like a. It's a. It's a fort, which is up high, but technically it's below sea level. So the whole area is so below sea level that this high point was. Was high, but below sea level or something. It's something really crazy that you think you're up high but you're not.

Amanda Rosazza: Wow.

Joanne Lockwood: Relatively. And it's a fascinating place. Lots of history. Yeah, lots of history.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes. Yes, definitely on my bucket list.

Joanne Lockwood: Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Put it. Put it near the top. If you ever come into. Up this way, up north, of course, once there's less trouble going in the world because it's a bit.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: So probably a no fly zone at the moment.

Amanda Rosazza: This is a good point. Yeah. Bit hairy out there at the moment. So move that to the side for now. Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Just go to New Zealand. It's safer down south.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, that's. That's a good plan. Just pop over to New Zealand, down to Tassie, maybe Hit up one of the islands. Yeah, much safer bet.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I was in, I was in Melbourne just before COVID actually. So that's, that's my, that's my limited exposure of, of Australia. I've got friends in Adelaide, but we never got further than that bottom strip. You know, the 12 apostles and the Great Ocean Road and that kind of stuff.

Amanda Rosazza: Stunning. That's one of my most favourite parts of the world. No, Melbourne and Adelaide are beautiful cities. I'm sure you had an amazing time.

Joanne Lockwood: Definitely on the bucket list to go back once I can find a consultancy opportunity that pays for me to be there like they did last time. That was a work and pleasure.

Amanda Rosazza: Oh, very good. Yes. Okay, we've got to tee that up for you. Definitely.

Joanne Lockwood: We do, we do, we do. Hopefully this podcast will be a launch platform for that. Who knows? Hinted.

Amanda Rosazza: Outstanding.

Joanne Lockwood: So in your bio we talked about creative thinking and strategic thinking and helping leaders build smarter systems. And when we're chatting in the green room, we're talking about what makes a great leader and how leaders can, can implement great systems in their business and that. That's what you do.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, so one thing we spoke about that I'd love to kick us off with because it's such an important point as much systems and processes, it's not about creating this one size fits all environment. So we were talking about, you know, that scenario where you've got sort of your, your task focused detail or thinking oriented people. They do not want to do the same things, socially or otherwise that your people focused, sort of big picture acting oriented people want to do so and that's one of the frameworks that we use when we're having these conversations and helping leaders to set their teams up to win. So being able to an environment where everyone can do their best work and wants to do their best work because they are comfortable and set up to win is so important. And one of the first things to understand as a leader is that not everyone is wired the same. So we can't just all expect everyone to want to do the same things in the same way, which I think is really fascinating and important.

Joanne Lockwood: So people talk. Probably equate this to things like DISC profiling and Myers Briggs and those kind of things. I assume we're talking about something beyond those concepts.

Amanda Rosazza: Look, it comes from a tool that we use in the Reach ecosystem. So it is fundamentally that is where it starts, but it does build so much further than that. And they are a helpful tool to gain a base level understanding of how People think and how people show up, but there's just so much more to people than just that. So it's a great tool for a base level understanding and we should definitely use it but then we need to sort of go a few steps deeper and a few steps further as well.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I agree. I, I like DISC and Myers Briggs as, as a baseline. I'm not going to diss it too much, you know, bit like a horoscope, it kind of gives you a sort of leaning in. You could sort of see yourself, you can identify yourself in what they tell you but it's what you do with it that's the, the challenge, isn't it?

Amanda Rosazza: That's it. And so we sort of use it as a common language tool so that we can give people context and they can, you know, look at themselves and the rest of their team on a quadrant and get that base level understanding to go and engage in a conversation or engage in a project and then it's up to them to get to know the person behind the profile.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Do you think people are generally are aware of others and others needs or we also self centred?

Amanda Rosazza: I think it's, I think in a lot of cases of course there are our outliers. I think in a lot of cases people assume that everyone is the same as them and it's an ignorance or just not having sat down and thought about if I'm going to go and ask Joanne to help me with this project, what does Joanne need to win? It's we, we think about okay, how would Amanda succeed in this situation? Not necessarily the person that we're working with or we're delegating it to or we're giving the opportunity to. So I think in a roundabout way, to answer your question, I think it's, it's, it's ignorance and maybe. Well no, not maybe. I know the organisation doesn't give the training or the right guidance and it's not something we're taught in school. Right. So unless we've proactively gone and done some kind of professional or personal development, we just don't have the tools to, to think that way is belief. What do you think?

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I do agree. I also believe, if you believe this, that emotional intelligence is a learned behaviour. You can learn emotional intelligence, you can learn leadership skills, you can learn cultural intelligence. Because I've got a line in my sand in my history where I wasn't self aware and then I became self aware. That first stage of emotional intelligence. Do you really care how you show up and what people think of you. Most people go, ah, I'm old enough and ugly enough now. I don't care what people think of me. I'm over 40. Whatever it is. I went the other way when I got over 40. I started realising that it did matter. And relationships are far better when you adapt your style and thinking to other people's.

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. No, I wholeheartedly agree. And I definitely had that line in the sand moment myself and just kind of gone, oh, wait, I can get much better outcomes and I feel better and they feel better and everybody wins when we're conscious and proactive and start with that in mind. It's such a powerful change in mindset and behaviour. Absolutely agree.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And the other challenge is that we're so. Well, of course we're going to think through our own lived experience, our own lens, and there's a huge cognitive load to put yourself to one side and factor in all of the other people in the room. And having to time slice your communication style, so much easier. Just be you and talk about you. And so you've got to try and retrain the plasticity of your brain to think in a different way, haven't you?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely true. And you're 100% right. The first, you know, especially if you're interacting with a lot of different people who show up in a lot of different ways, totally drains the battery. Right. Because we're having to reach into these different. You know, the beauty of it is it's like a muscle. The more you work it, the stronger it becomes and the easier it becomes to be more, I guess, elastic and sort of even if you haven't interacted with someone before, read the room and go, okay, I can tell what this person needs to set them up for success so that we can have a great interaction and this project succeeds or the podcast succeeds or whatever it happens to be.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I was definitely more extrovert leaning before I crossed this line in the sand. I think now I'm very much more introvert leaning because being in high density environments with lots of people, it is emotionally draining having to really absorb each individual. Whereas an extrovert, I probably didn't care so much.

Amanda Rosazza: That's a really good point and I would agree with that because I, I would definitely say the same of myself. Just, yeah, the, the more, just when you're in those environments, when there's more people now, like a couple of weeks ago we did a three day off site with a client room full of sort of 20 people. First day was planning, second two days were their cultural embedment programme. Awesome programme. We do. So we do the two days where I'm co facilitating and we do this thing called the Special Objects dinner, where someone brings something that's really special to them and, you know, it tells the storey and it can get quite emotional. But it's a great way for the team to get to know each other in sort of a safe environment because they've spent the first day together. By the end of that, I'd say 10 years ago I would have been totally fine, but now I'm. I'm like, I can't talk to him. Totally done by the end of that dinner. Because you're showing up in a way that gets the best result for everybody else in the room, not just you. So, yeah, it's. I would absolutely agree with that completely.

Joanne Lockwood: Maybe without realising, I've maybe just redefined introversion and extroversion just by.

Amanda Rosazza: I think so.

Joanne Lockwood: Yep. The amount I care about absorbing that energy. Whereas before I had a safety valve and I didn't. Yeah, maybe that's it.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, that's it. And you just kind of just firing off and you're either with me or against me. Let's. Let's go. Whereas. Yeah, that's it. No. Yes. We have done great work so far. Look at us.

Joanne Lockwood: We have. I mean, I can feel the podcast has achieved its mission already. It's fantastic.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly. Excellent work, team.

Joanne Lockwood: So we talked in the green room about, you know, the people who like the rigid structure and people who. Who like the fuzzy edges and people who just. Like an open field.

Amanda Rosazza: Right.

Joanne Lockwood: It's. It's from an organisational point of view, when you're talking about an organisation that has to maybe is looking to be sold or wants good structure or investment or whatever, things like that, you have to have rigid. Well, rigid policies and structure, don't you?

Amanda Rosazza: You do, yeah. So. So something that. Where. So if we're looking at sort of your standard operating procedures. So policies are one thing, right? They're. They're pretty fixed and they make sure that we're compliant and legal and all of those things. But if we look at the procedures. So how do we create wins for our leadership team, for our team and our clients, our guests, our customers, whoever it might be. Being able to give people guardrails as opposed to rigid standard operating procedures is something that's really powerful. And we talk about SOPs or standard operating procedures for the real world. So how do we set up everybody that's going to read this procedure to win Making sure that it's not just written by one type of human for a hypothetical situation. We actually sit down with the different players in the organisation and understand how they get things done and how people who are winning get things done so that they get that everyone's having a great experience. So. And a lot of that is understanding the different personalities and the different approaches to work so that people, you know, I always say this, you know, we want people to be able to do their best work, so we give them the tools and they want to do their best work because we've set them up to win and play to their strengths, essentially.

Joanne Lockwood: I've worked in environments where you can clearly see that people operating at different speeds with different core values and rule sets, there are. There are certain group of people who almost like pulling you back with chains going, whoa, slow down. We just think about this more carefully when you do this. Other people go, well, we just got to run for the finish line. We've got to go and do this. You know what people in the middle go, we need a process for this, we need a process for that. What we're going to have. It's a real nightmare in a business where you've got all these competing things and everyone's getting frustrated. This person's not playing by the rules, this person's got too many rules. This person won't do anything. I can't make a decision.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes, it's real. It's real. It is a nightmare. It's. It comes. Becomes quite chaotic. So as much as we give position it. So we give our rule followers what they're craving. So we give them. Here's the standard operating procedure. Those that want a little bit more fluidity, but we still need you to colour inside the lines to get this result and helping them have guardrails so that they can still be their best selves within the guardrails and really driving home, ultimately show up as best. However you do your best work. I need the result to look like this. As long as you give me this result, we're good. And that's a big part of how we write procedures and embed them in organisations. There's often more than, you know, multiple ways to get things done. Ultimately, as long as the result is the gold standard that goes out to the client or the guests or the customer, then we're good, really.

Joanne Lockwood: So the other sort of person often described maybe is the gifted jerk, the person who is too big to fail. Arrogant top salesperson. I'm untouchable and I always think well, actually, that's the person you need to fire first because they're not helping the organisation, they're creating toxic environment or something. So how can you encourage this, the team player from somebody who's clearly a loner?

Amanda Rosazza: Look, that is a tough one. To your point, I would. So if I was going into that organisation, I'd put them in a development programme and just see if we're coachable, essentially. Or am I here to ruffle feathers? And we've been in organisations where both have been. The case had great results when they just needed a little bit of guidance or often it's helping the others leverage them, if that makes sense. So if there's something that they are genuinely really good at, not to play into their ego also, just leverage what they're good at. So if they are a gun sales person, okay, let's leverage it. Little boost to their ego. And we all win because we're learning something. Also, we tend to hold onto bad hires or people that have overstayed their welcome. So we have had situations where we've, We've. We've had to, you know, make those tough decisions because they're not meeting the requirements of their position as a, shall we say, a side effect of that behaviour. So it depends is the short answer.

Joanne Lockwood: I was in exactly that position where this is going back into the mid-90s. I was working for a large bank. And I remember our HR business partner, whatever they were called at the time, came to us and said, so and so's probation is up at the end of the week. Do you want to keep them? It was like what we were. We were on the cusp of. This person wasn't really. They were kind of okay. Not okay, kind of. And they sort of said, look, we got three days. And then we're stuck with them in the nicest possible way. You know, we're committed.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: For a while.

Amanda Rosazza: We're committed. 100.

Joanne Lockwood: We're committed. And I remember my, My manager and I, we sat there and we looked at each other and went, wow. It seems very cold and calculated. This is a human being and they've got a family.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: Could we make this really cold decision to terminate them or are they. They're all right, really. They're a nice person. And we fell down on the. They're a nice person. And we decided that they were nice. They were lovely. They were a bit ineffectual. They were. We always get frustrated with them. And then six months later, we're all looking at each other going, we should have, we should have cut them. Should have cut them.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: And it's, you have to make that wrong decision once to learn the wrong decision, don't you?

Amanda Rosazza: Well, exactly. And I've been there myself. I've, I've held on to team members to be like, oh, they're so lovely, but they, you know, they're costing you money ultimately. You know, as we're running a business, not a charity, we need to make money or we won't be there for anybody to take home their paycheck ultimately. So. And what I find interesting, you know, you're talking about that happening a little while ago. It still happens. I it with. I don't think I've had a client I've ever worked with that did not have that person that they held onto because they were nice. And I think one thing we do roll out in organisations that solves a lot of this is if you onboard people really effectively. So that first week, that first month, that first 90 days, and you really, I want to say, indoctrinate them into your culture and help them understand what a great insert position name here looks like, what an A player looks like. And you make that really clear from the start and the speed at which we move and all of those things. If you're clear on that, you do cultural fit in your interviewing stage, you do rapid values alignment in the interview stage and you get clear on that and then do a really good onboarding. Someone like that will generally self select out before the end of their probation or you do have that opportunity to coach them through that probation period, or don't wait till you get to the end if they're not a good fit and you, you know, if you've got that robust onboarding and the data is telling you they're not the right person. Okay, let's, let's set them up for success by letting them go and, and let them go and win in the right environment for them. Because if you're keeping them where they can't win or they can't do their best work, then you know, it's not good for anybody really. So if you, I think if we change the, I guess, framing a little bit, you're not doing them any favours either.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's a fair enough. This role isn't for you. There are other roles that are for you, but they're just not here.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, it's beautifully said, Joanne. Beautifully said. And I think that's what we encourage our leaders to say. There's so much opportunity out there. This isn't the right fit. There will be a right fit for you.

Joanne Lockwood: Could grab might actually be us and not you. It might be that the culture we've created isn't for you. And actually you can find somewhere where you. You create a sense of belonging somewhere else and you. You thrive.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly right. Exactly right. And I think there's this, or at least I notice it here. There's this underlying assumption that anyone who has the right experience or the right qualifications or even the right drive can slot into any role in any organisation. It's just not. It's just not the case. So I think educating people or helping them see that, and especially, you know, I. I know a lot of recruiters are talking about that now. Just because a job is advertised doesn't mean. And the money is right and the conditions are right, doesn't mean it's the right fit.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And that's what the onboarding and selection process should all be about, is to make sure that you both come out of demo mode.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.

Joanne Lockwood: Is that stuff in the review mode? Not. Or the not actual game footage sort of thing, isn't it? You know, this is just a pretend environment.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.

Joanne Lockwood: We're both BSing each other. You're trying to sell me the role and I'm trying to sell you me.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: And that's when we get to demo mode. Get the covers off quickly and go, well, what's the reality here? Yes. It's a shit place to work and I don't like it or whatever it may be.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So if we. More of that honesty up front just sets everyone up to win. But, yeah, absolutely. So. So the biggest favour you can do for yourselves out there, team, be vigilant when you're doing your recruitment process, rapid values alignment, cultural fit. And then if your onboarding is robust and you have clear milestones where they should be performing week one, month one, like first 90 days, then everyone's set up for win and you'll know pretty quickly whether you have fit or not.

Joanne Lockwood: Let's dive into. You mentioned culture fit a couple of times, and that's a very subjective thing, isn't it? And it's, you know, we've got to be careful here. So what is culture fit done well and when is culture fit done badly? Let's talk about the difference of those.

Amanda Rosazza: So I always look at it from the perspective of you've got your vision, your mission, your values. If someone can get excited about those, it's generally a good culture fit. If they're excited about the why, the why we do things, then they will find a way to make magic. And I'm a big Disney fan, so I always refer back to this for, you know, their guest, to their customer, their client, whoever it might be. Whereas I think it's too bad at

Joanne Lockwood: this mode, isn't it, that's they're passionate about the mission and the passion.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, that's it. Whereas if they're not and they're just kind of dialling it in, I think it's a little bit harder for them to do their best work. I'm sure you've seen it yourself when someone's like, I'm just here to do a job, I'm here to make sure the wheels don't fall off the bus. Or versus. I'm really excited because, use the Disney example, these guests, you know, this could be a once in a lifetime trip for them and I want to make sure that they have the best possible time. There's sort of. There's a difference in that energy and that to me is what a good cultural fit in. And then there's layers above and beyond that and it's where the organisation takes care of its people as well. So making sure that we're setting everyone up for success, no matter what their background, like, you know, how they come to us, making sure that we're setting everybody up to win. So that's another layer of it because some organisations are doing it really like amazing work, others are doing it really poorly. So there's. It sort of works both ways, if that makes sense.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I did some work back in my old days when I was doing IT work and I ran my own IT consultancy and I did some work for funeral directors. And I remember the principal of the funeral director, when I was installing his systems and he sat me down and sort of said, just to explain what we're about, he says, we get one opportunity to bury your mother. Yeah, we cannot get it right next time, so we have to be on time, it has to work all these things. We get one chance, so there can not be any risk. And they're all geared around. There's an absolute. It has to work once, first time, because there's never a second time. And he explained that to me and that was just the culture. There's also this ultimate respect. If that red light flashed, that meant a family were visiting in one of the rooms. Therefore, at that point, there, quiet, shush, respect. Everyone sombered down a bit. The moment stopped flashing. It was lively, bantery, jokey. But there was an immediate. This is. There's a family going on here. That's their time. And it was a real cultural thing and I was really impressed with that. Everybody bought into that and I, because they briefed me as a supplier when I was there on site, I bought into it as well. I knew what was important to them. And I think that's what we're talking about here is educating people into the way things work best here.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes. No. And that is a beautiful example. Thank you. That's amazing. Yes. So how do we do our best work? How do we show up in the best possible way? And little things like that are what make all the difference. That's some chills. I love that.

Joanne Lockwood: Because what we can't have though is culture fit as an excuse for toxic culture or enforcing. Oh, we go to the pub, we do this and we're bros. We high five each other and ring bells and jump up and down and get excited. And you must be that bouncy person as well. That's not culture fitness.

Amanda Rosazza: No, not at all. Not at all. So you. Okay, so let's draw a line there so we could have a culture of we celebrate our win. It doesn't have to look like, you know, what is it? The chest thing and the, the bumping. The bells and. Yeah, the chest bump. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to look like that. We can have a culture of celebrating our wins. Absolutely. And as a leader, you can understand what that looks like for each member of your team. Because celebration is something that people are so ignorant of and it still astounds me. To your point, they think that we're all just going to have a party in the lunchroom or we're all going to ring the bell. But when you actually check in with each member of your team, they like to celebrate individual wins differently. They like to celebrate group wins differently. So get everyone together and understand how they want to celebrate. Let them dictate what the celebration looks like. Because when they've decided what it looks like, they've got more buy in and they actually feel celebrated. Not like this is the most horrific thing ever. Can I please just exit stage left at this point? So, yeah, yeah, that's a great example.

Joanne Lockwood: Overly recognised.

Amanda Rosazza: That's it.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Some people just.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.

Joanne Lockwood: They don't resonate with that praise, do they?

Amanda Rosazza: Percent so when you know when you're bringing in a new team member or even if a team member has left or you're forming a new team, it's about having those conversations and going, okay, These are our values and part of what we do is we celebrate the wins. How are we going to do that as a team? What matters to each of you? And then deciding as a team, that's. That's really powerful.

Joanne Lockwood: Going back into my old banking days in the 90s, I remember I had this person working for me and I think we had a crisis going on. There was something flying around and this one person was all over the place. He was staying late, he was doing this. He was everywhere. He was helping people and helping us avert this crisis. And he was an unsung hero. And I remember sending. I remember to this day, I sent him an email on Lotus Notes. Going way back into the 90s, then.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: Just saying thank you for being such a helpful bastard. I love it. That's what I said. Just that one phrase. And he came up to me the next day and he sort of said, that is the most relevant praise. You know, that is the best thank you I've ever had in my life. Because I was speaking his language. That was a kind of a relationship we had.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: It wasn't fluffy, it wasn't performative. It was sincere. From here, the way I would have spoken to him face to face. And he went, that meant so much to me. Thank you. Thank you for recognising me in that way. I didn't think you'd noticed.

Amanda Rosazza: That's awesome.

Joanne Lockwood: That's where praise and reward really resonate, when you figure out what that thing is, isn't it?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Yeah. And exactly what you said. Speaking their language. Right. And it matters so much more because you've taken that time to understand them as a person and acknowledge them. It's. It's.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Rosazza: That's where the magic is.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. We don't always want the parking spot at the front of the building with employee of the Month on it, do we?

Amanda Rosazza: That's it. And some people are not motivated by money. You can give them a pay rise and. Okay, cool. I want you to tell me I did a good job.

Joanne Lockwood: Right.

Amanda Rosazza: Everyone's motivated by different things. So understanding what drives your people is insane.

Joanne Lockwood: The other realisation I had a little while ago is. I think it was. I was listening to an audiobook. Utopia for Realists or Humankind? Which one of the two by Rutger Bregman. One of the points he made, amongst many others, is that people don't show up in the morning to do a bad job. Nobody believes they are the dick. Nobody believes that they are the problem. Everybody believes that they are being Their best self.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: So if they're not to you, where's the gap in perception? Why are they not seeing what you see and why are you not seeing what they see? And that's often a communication barrier.

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Could not agree more. And people, generally speaking are poor communicators. They're even worse in a corporate environment because we haven't given them the tools that they need to communicate. So one of the big things that we advocate for is as a bare minimum helping people understand basic communication. But moreover, how do we have those more challenging conversations if there is, if there is a gap? If I think I'm doing a great job, just assuming because I get a high five occasionally from one of the other sales team, how does Joanne then come to me and say, well actually Amanda, there's a couple of opportunities here that we need to work on. So teaching people how to have those conversations, how to give feedback where we're often not empowering leaders or you know, even sort of future leaders to be able to have those conversations with their teammates. So it's, yeah, just a neglected area and a massive opportunity in so many organisations.

Joanne Lockwood: And challenging conversations are challenging, aren't they? Yes, it's obviously more, it's an obvious statement but we have millions of conversations that aren't challenging so we don't even think about them. But the challenging ones are the ones we, we get anxiety, we're worried about, we sometimes be ill prepare, we shoot from the hip, we go off half cocked and we're not prepared for this eruption of emotion that confronts us from them.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly, exactly. And that said, with a few tools in your back pocket, you'll over like you'll still feel terrified the first time you do it and that's okay, feel it and do it anyway and then you'll build that muscle like we were talking about earlier. But we just, we haven't given people the tools. So frameworks are so powerful and you can bake that into this is how we have those challenging conversations. You can give everybody in the organisation a framework, teach them how to utilise it. Please don't role play. Everyone hates role plays, but please don't. But show them how, how it can be effective, especially like as. And if you want other people to use the tool in the organisation, use it as the leader. Be set the standard, set the example. And another thing not to go off on a tangent, also leaders please ask for feedback. That's another way that you can unlock what's going on in your team. So so many leaders are prepared to give feedback. And there's a lot out there that are not yet asking for feedback from their team. So things are simple. To avoid things escalating into a difficult conversation, it could be, Joanne, how can I better set you up for success next time we tackle a project like this? Asking for feedback on how you can serve your people is something that will be a game changer for you as well.

Joanne Lockwood: And starting the conversation off by listening. Because often you sit down in these challenging conversations, the first thing you want to do is, I want to tell you that you're wrong. Which is never a good foundation.

Amanda Rosazza: Nope.

Joanne Lockwood: A good leader would probably say, how are you doing? What's going on? Tell me about how your work is at the moment. What's going well, Any areas you think we could work on together to improve. And if they've got any emotional intelligence at all, they will know what's going wrong in their world. You just need to allow them to help you unlock that. And then you can coach them on it, can't you?

Amanda Rosazza: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. If you go in straight for the throat, nobody wins there. But having that structure that you just explained to the team, it's super powerful. It comes down to curiosity, right? Instead of us having our bias and our judgement and all these assumptions, often we'll go into those difficult conversations believing we know what's actually going on. But if we approach it with curiosity and say, hey, Joanne, tell me what's happening? What's your workload? Like, you know, start the conversation there and like you say, they will know if something needs to be brought up. And they will. They will tell you exactly what's going on and you can workshop it.

Joanne Lockwood: Suddenly, someone turning up late every day, 10 minutes late every day, but they've been reliable. It's like, what's going on? Oh, yeah, Babysitter. Or this. Or they've changed the bus timetable. That's the earliest bus I can get. I had to run. Or my car's broken down. Exactly. Sometimes you do a bit of fact-finding. Oh, right. Okay. The only bus you can get is that one. Or you have to leave the night before. Okay, so can we restructure your day?

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly.

Joanne Lockwood: You're gonna make it. Make it up at lunchtime or you. You just shift your window. Fine. There's no issue. It's just you. Yeah, but they're too scared to tell you because they didn't know how you'd react.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Whereas if you just go in curious and ask what's happening? Instead of why have you been late for the last six days out of seven or whatever it is? You know, it's. Yeah, they will feel that support and, you know, then you move into solutions mode. Right, okay, well, what do we do with that? What's. Let's find a way to make this work for both of us.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but managers could be scared as well in these conversations. I mean, I was talking to somebody who was in a situation where this person wasn't performing and they were scared to approach them because the person they was having trouble with was black and they were white. And they were worried through their own biases, they may be perceived as being racist by giving this person constructive feedback or addressing this performance issue. And what happened was this performance issue never got resolved and eventually they ended up terminating this person because they were beyond recovery. Whereas if they have said something at day one, it wouldn't have been an issue. So again, the managers have to realise that there are anxieties holding them back. Their affinity bias, their in group bias versus the people who are out group, how they have conversations that they need to unlock their own communication skills, don't they?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely, absolutely. And if you think of, you know, if we had have had that, that conversation when we should have had it, we, we were doing that person a favour as well. Like, it's not just when we avoid them, we're not helping our team, we're not helping them to grow or to, you know, make that. It could have been such a, at that point, it might have been such a slight change in behaviour, but then because we just let it fester for. Want a better phrasing, it's like deviated and become untenable. Like you say, yeah, you, you need to have those conversations in order to serve your people and allow them to set them up for success.

Joanne Lockwood: So I'm a manager, a leader in a business at some hierarchy within it. What are the trigger points that I should be aware of that tell me that I need to either coach my team better, coach my people better, or even coach who's above me better how to react to me. So what the kind of trigger points that spark this. Hmm, I need to do something.

Amanda Rosazza: So it's generally, if you have repeated. What's the right word, Joanne? So repeated deviation from our norms, our standards, our, you know, position descriptions, all of those things that are written in our playbook, if you like. If there's repeated deviations, once it's, you know, okay, second time it's a coincidence, the third time we've gotta pay attention

Joanne Lockwood: so to your point about behavioural issue, at that point.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, exactly, spot on. So at that point, I would suggest sitting down and having an informal conversation with the team member and just. Just exactly as we said. First step is to understand what's going on. And if they're late, for example, and they don't have a good reason, okay, so remind them gentle reminders of, you know, we have to start at xyz, I need you here by this time. Remind them of our policies and procedures, make that clear, make sure they have understanding, get them to repeat it back to you, all those pretty standard things. Once you've done that, if we still see the same behaviour, that's when we need to go into some more formal performance improvement plan, style scenario. If we don't see improvement there, that's when we need to ask the question if we're a good fit. So, yeah, is that helpful? Is that kind of what you're looking for?

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I'm just thinking. And then when you walk in day one, what are the warning signs you look for? What are the first ways you would intervene? Or I presume you start by listening a bit of thought because. Just listening.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, yeah, just so I'll normally start by just. Yeah, hanging out and just listening. What I'll ask at different levels of the organisation, what's your bottleneck? What's your biggest frustration? Treat it as therapy, Tell me, bring me your problems, bring me your challenges. And then it becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly where the challenges are. You will normally have a couple of team members who are. Who need extra support. And whether that's somewhat like, to our point earlier, whether it's someone we've held onto for too long or whether it's someone that genuinely just hasn't had the guidance that they've needed. And I've been in organisations where we've had both, we've had one or the other. And there's always a way to move past it. It's just we can't bury our heads in the sand. We've just got to be intentional about it. And. Yeah, so the first step in the process is literally just hanging out, talking to people. Look what's happening in a Slack thread asking what's happening in your meetings? What do your meetings look like? How would you. How would you rate your meetings? Let's show me your KPIs, your OKRs. How are we performing? Are we. Are we all heading towards the same North Star? It's crazy the amount of organisations that I walk into and different departments, silos have different ideas of what North Star looks like or the vision or the mission. Just doing those temperature cheques and having those conversations is where we start. And then from there you can sort of see where the opportunities are and what's, what's going to stack the deck in their favour the most. What's going to move the needle forward the most?

Joanne Lockwood: Companies with lots of motivational posters all over the wall. Is that a warning sign or is that a.

Amanda Rosazza: Okay, yes, if so, in those situations. So either the motivational posters or their values are written on the wall. If I will always do this, if their values are written on the wall and they're prominent, I will go and spot check someone. I'll go into the kitchen and I'll

Joanne Lockwood: say, what are they?

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, Joanne, what are the values? 9 times out of 10 they can give me 1 out of 5 or however many there are, and that's usually a pretty good indicator. Then there'll be other organisations, they'll have them written on the wall, but it's part of their common language. Completely different vibe. Right. Completely different energy. So someone might. What's an example? Let's say they're, they're working on a project, they're putting a rack together, say, like for an IT installation. And their value is, I don't know,

Joanne Lockwood: not perfection, but good enough is good enough.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, there you go. Let's say that was their value. So they. Maybe we've got two technicians that are working together and they say good enough is good enough. Are we there? What do we. Or what would, what would we need to do to get us there? If that's part of their common language, that's, that's a different, different energy to, you know, when they can't tell me what they are. So it's, it can be a warning sign if the people not embodying what is written on the wall. And then you have the organisations that can't tell me what their vision, mission and values are because they haven't articulated them either at all or in such a long time. And then, you know, you have the ones that have them in a drawer somewhere and they have to go and dig it out and blow the dust off it. So, yeah, there's a, there's a broad range of, of how that shows up, but it is very interesting. Often if it is on the wall, they can't tell me what they are, even though they're right there.

Joanne Lockwood: And that forms some of the basis of recruitment, recruit, marketing, employer, value proposition, all these kind of buzzwords you hear talked about. You have to try and represent who you are because often companies sell who they're not or who they aspire to be. And then that's when demo mode kicks in. You know, you think, oh, this is the aspiration of the company. And you get in and go, everyone's really miserable.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: The demo doesn't live up to the reality, does it?

Amanda Rosazza: That's right. And. And that is something I've. I've actually pulled a couple of clients up on. It's like, okay, this is, this is how you're selling yourself and this is what I' experiencing when I come into your office. There's a massive disconnect there. So we either need to change how we're selling ourselves or we need to bridge the gap in here.

Joanne Lockwood: So, yeah, your staff surveys, your pulse surveys have to. You have to overlay them with your expectations, hold them up to the light and check and check. The holes are in the same place.

Amanda Rosazza: Yes. Beautifully said. Absolutely. Yes. You need to, need to get, get super clear on that. If they are not in the same place, what are you going to do about it? What is the solution? And move quickly and don't ignore it because those little problems become big problems.

Joanne Lockwood: I often say to clients that you should stand outside the front of your building, metaphorically stand outside the front of your building. And what do you see from the outside? What do you see as a person walking by, as a consumer, as a potential employee? Sniff and smell. What do you feel like? What do you smell like from the outside? And then step into the door and do the same and go, where's the disconnect? Where am I? Where am I? What am I missing? And is it C-suite smell one thing and the shop floor smell a different thing, you know, because you've got, again, a disconnect in the organization as well.

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. So common. And a lot of that is silos. Right. We have departments that are, aren't, you know, cross collaborating or cross pollinating. That's, that's a whole other thing. But to your point, I have a client and amazing client. They do premium consumer goods or awesome company. You would not know it. Walking into their building is a hot mess. And I'm like, team, this is your brand. This is where you're positioning yourself. I walk into the office, it looks like. I don't even know how to describe a hot mess is what I would describe it as. But, you know, so, like, yeah, everything has to be connected, whether it's, you know, our client experience has to be connected. To our team experience, to our leadership experience. It has to all connect back to the vision, the mission, the values, why, why we do what we do. And so often, as I'm sure you've seen it like you're describing, there's these little just disconnects everywhere, everything come together

Joanne Lockwood: and that's where the magic happens, isn't it? Yeah. And I always talk about belongingness is the intersection of all of these various elements and when you 100% and everything else aligns in that perfect symmetry, that's belonging, that's where you really resonate with everything that's going on, don't you?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. And what do you think? I'm going to ask you a question and what do you think, what do you think stops people from getting to that place of belonging to.

Joanne Lockwood: It's really hard to define. So ephemeral, I think is the word I'm looking for. So nebulous and it means something different to different people. All you can hope to do is create an environment where your culture fit people for a better way of describing it, go, wow, this is for me and the people. It isn't for go, it isn't for me. And you go, that's absolutely fine. I'm not saying you should have a bias where you only have like minded people, but you with the right environment. And I was. I always think about it as my favourite coffee shop and I tell the story quite often. I know what my favourite coffee shop is. Why is that? It's the service at the counter. It's the bean, it's the cup size, it's the flavour, the way they put the milk in, the little thing they put on top, the seats in the window, the sofa. How I get reward points. There's so many things around this coffee shop but I know it's out of choice of three coffee shops. I will always go there. And if I end up going to the other one, I go. It just feels it's not my place.

Amanda Rosazza: Not, it's not the same.

Joanne Lockwood: I was talking about the other one and it's. I always describe it that feeling from the sitcom, the Canadian sitcom Cheers. The bar where everyone knows your name, all the people that go there, it's their happy place, they know that they're going to do have a great time. And I'm not saying work should be a playground, but work should be. Should boost you, enrich you and give you something back and you just know that it's your place, don't you?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Could not agree more. And I Think we in wanting to create that environment, you have to be prepared to do it one percent at a time. Because all of those things that you described about your favourite coffee shop, they didn't do that overnight, they had to stack the deck over time. And so many, especially founders, they want to create that now. I want that now. I'm like, yes, I know, and I love that you're excited also. That's going to take, that's a three year ramp up. And here's how we get there. Don't let the fact that it takes time to get there stop you from taking the steps to get there.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, there's a coffee shop at the same chain and inside it's okay, it's fine. But outside, because it's on a high street, they've got tables and chairs on the outside, on the pavement and that's where people smoke. So people sit at these chairs, they'll smoke. They may have what looks like an aggressive dog or something like this. And you walk out and think, I don't want to walk through this hostile view that I have six foot of space outside the shop. It just feels hostile. So I go somewhere else. So whatever you're doing inside for your brand and values, you can turn people off with that negative impression when you first walk up. And I think that's, you really gotta stand outside your building and look in sometimes. What do people see?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely, yes, absolutely. And outside your building could be your website, it could be how you're represented, you know, like on other platforms, in other environments. Think about the outside of your building. Where do people first find, find out about you? Where, where do they first explore what you're about? Absolutely. So crucial, so crucial.

Joanne Lockwood: I can't remember the exact, the exact phrase, but it's about self awareness, it's. What do you, what do people say about you when you're not in the room?

Amanda Rosazza: Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: And what do you want people to say about you when you're not in the room? You, if you don't have an opinion on that, how can you influence how you show up? If I want people to say, well, Joanne's amazing, she's fantastic. When I'm not in the room, I have to be that person when I'm not in that room. And when I'm in the room, and I think a business and organisation has to have, how am I seen when I'm not in the room asking the question.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly. And you can't decide, you can't be not all in on that. You have to decide and commit to what you're going to be and always be that. Absolutely.

Joanne Lockwood: I know, I mean, there's some major global banks and there's some in the uk, obviously. And I know, because I know the leaders and the board, people like that, I know that they have this belief that they want to be the best, they want to have the best customer service, they want to be the best employer, they want to be on Glassdoor and all these kind of things and they want to be rah rah. And everyone loves them and wants to stay there forever. That's what they really, really want. But you have a conversation with an individual and their lived experience, their employee experience is completely different. And that's this massive disconnect in these layers of management where it just takes one supervisor, leader, point of authority to mess it up. And then my customer experiences suffers because I've dealt with the person that's having a bad day and that's not what the bank wanted, but it's what I got and that's where it messes up. That one person makes a difference to who you are.

Amanda Rosazza: Exactly, exactly. To your point, like the solution to that isn't micromanaging our team, it's about having all of those things that we've already spoken about in place. So that one of my friends says, so that you can still do a great job on your worst day.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes.

Amanda Rosazza: So that's. Yeah. So if you, if you have all of those things set up correctly on your worst day, you can still do a pretty good job.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I always say to people, you have permission to have a bad day and you can, you can phone me up and say, I'm having a bad day, I need to go home. And you go, if you're having a bad day, please do go home and come back tomorrow when you're better. And rather than sit there and be bad with everybody else and feel worse, everyone should be allowed to take a bad day and be honest about it.

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Yeah, I know, I agree, I agree. And I think we have, in Australia, there's definitely, we joke about it, we call it the sickie, like the, the sick day, but everyone jokes about like, if you're having a rough day, you know, you want to take a mental health day, just, just take, take one of your sick days and, and, and everybody's better off when you just take that moment to step away. So, yeah, definitely, definitely agree.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I've been self employed or a principal in organisations for the last 30 odd years, so I have, I have the privilege of being able to do that whenever I want. Want. But I.

Amanda Rosazza: Right.

Joanne Lockwood: I wake up in the morning, I think today's not a day where I could be productive. Let's either sit on the sofa, let's go for a walk, take the puppy out, do something else. Today is not my day.

Amanda Rosazza: And absolutely.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, we shouldn't restrict that privilege to just a few.

Amanda Rosazza: Yeah, I agree.

Joanne Lockwood: And people. Could people there provide you support? You can support that. So you've had a bad day, come back tomorrow. Can I help? What was the bad day? What can we do? Can we. Can we help you in the future? If you need some more help, let us know. If it ever gets too much, come and talk to me. We can deal with this. Not a problem, don't worry. That really opens up the conversation then, doesn't, does it?

Amanda Rosazza: Does. And you know you want to. We always talk about that extreme empathy. So, you know, sitting down with them and just listening, having that curiosity, no judgement, just saying. I think Brene Brown says, I'm not sure what to say, but I'm glad you told me. That sort of mentality, like, I'm not.

Joanne Lockwood: Not.

Amanda Rosazza: I'm not judging you. And when they're ready, let's move into solutions mode. How can we work together and move past this when we're ready to move past it, depending on, you know, what is going on and where they're at. So, yeah, definitely.

Joanne Lockwood: If you're a manager or a supervisor or leader, listening to this episode, and this is news to you, you must think, wow, this is a lot of effort, a lot of cognitive brain power here to navigate this, but we touched on the plasticity and the learned behaviour. You can compress all of this into your new standard operation, process yourself, can't you?

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely, absolutely. And the important thing is, like I said earlier, just 1% each time. Choose one thing to focus on that week, implement it, get that right and then bring the next thing in in and the next thing in. If you try to do it all at once, you'll decide it's all too hard and you won't do anything. But if you just pick one thing to focus on that we've spoken about. Game changer. And then you can add the next layer and the next layer and in 12 months from now, you'll. You'll be a completely different leader.

Joanne Lockwood: Amanda, this has been an absolutely fantastic conversation. How can people get hold of you?

Amanda Rosazza: Yes. So you can. Best way to find me is on LinkedIn. Honestly, come and check out my LinkedIn profile. I'm pretty confident I'm the only Amanda Rosata. So. So come and connect with me on LinkedIn and we can continue the conversation.

Joanne Lockwood: That's Rosa is R O Z. Sorry, R O S A T Z Z A Rosa O S. R O, S A. Oh, sorry, there's no T in it. I put that in there because I couldn't remember how to pronounce your name. So the T is my typo.

Amanda Rosazza: No, no, no, no, no. It was to empower us to win at the start. See, it's all about. It's all about those hacks. Yeah, absolutely.

Joanne Lockwood: Let me take that out. So it's pronounced with the Italian way as an Amanda. It is not the traditional way. Absolutely amazing.

Amanda Rosazza: Nailed it.

Joanne Lockwood: Thank you so much. I've loved talking to you and catch up with you soon.

Amanda Rosazza: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.