--- title: "Leading With Cultural Intelligence" episode: 217 date: 2026-08-06 guest: "Lucy Butters" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/217-leading-with-cultural-intelligence audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-217/audio.mp3 --- # Leading With Cultural Intelligence In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Lucy Butters to explore the nuanced art of leading with cultural intelligence. Together, they unpick how genuine inclusion requires far more than surface-level policies or token gestures. The dialogue underscores the importance of intentionality, self-awareness, and the motivation to bridge cultural differences. Joanne reflects on the lessons learnt from her own evolving understanding of inclusion, while Lucy articulates how cultural intelligence operates as an ongoing developmental tool, equipping individuals and organisations to navigate complexity, challenge assumptions, and foster authentic belonging. Lucy is the founder of Elembee Ltd, an author, and one of only ten Master Cultural Intelligence Facilitators worldwide. Her extensive career spans over a decade of supporting higher education, global business, and community-building, with a particular focus on inclusive leadership and strengthening intercultural competence. Lucy’s superpower lies in her ability to connect networks and nurture communities, always seeking to bring people together with clarity and empathy. Her book, Cultural Intelligence in Practice, is designed to inspire others to actively build their own capability, driving inclusive cultures and positive collaboration in a diverse world. Joanne and Lucy examine the four capabilities of cultural intelligence—drive, knowledge, strategy, and action—discussing how they must be consciously cultivated to avoid defaulting to comfortable biases. They challenge binary concepts of identity, delve into the complexity of micro-cultures, and argue that being inclusive is never a passive state but a continuous, intentional process. Through vivid anecdotes and practical reflections, they urge leaders to design systems for people, not just compliance, and highlight the value of holding space for multiple perspectives in difficult conversations. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Discovering cultural intelligence through business - 03:46 — Millennium bug and collaborative research - 07:22 — Explaining cultural intelligence - 10:32 — Being consciously inclusive - 13:57 — Changing societal expectations - 17:12 — Volunteering with Saliha post-9/11 - 20:50 — Living with triplets and MS challenges - 26:51 — Pride and stigma of national flags - 28:06 — Discussing nationalism and identity complexities - 30:50 — Discussing diversity and inclusion challenges - 36:23 — Using CQ in conversations - 37:29 — Developing cognitive subroutines - 42:51 — Changing my mum's perspective - 43:53 — Staying calm during conflict - 47:58 — Discussing accountability and open-mindedness - 50:16 — Listening to Audible while walking ## Key takeaways - The four core capabilities of cultural intelligence and how they enhance individual and organisational effectiveness. - Why intentional motivation and self-awareness are essential for meaningful inclusion—not just theoretical knowledge. - The crucial distinction between managing behaviours and attempting to police personal identities within diverse settings. - How leaders can avoid instinctive ‘quick fixes’ and instead create space for complex dialogue and curiosity. - The value of considering temporary and invisible disabilities when designing accessible environments and equitable systems. - Why context, habit, and feedback loops form the backbone of sustained cultural intelligence in fast-changing workplaces. - Techniques for holding space for differing perspectives, navigating discomfort, and fostering a sense of belonging even amidst disagreement. ## FAQs ### What is cultural intelligence (CQ)? Cultural intelligence (CQ) refers to the capability to function effectively in culturally diverse settings. The term is underpinned by over two decades of research and is rooted in intelligence theory, building upon concepts such as IQ (Intelligence Quotient) and EQ (Emotional Intelligence). CQ is composed of four key capabilities: motivation (drive), knowledge, strategy, and action/behaviour. ### How did the concept of cultural intelligence originate? The foundational research began in 2000 with Professor Soon Ang in Singapore, who observed that bringing together the brightest minds from around the world did not automatically result in high-performing teams. She sought to understand the underlying factors of effective cross-cultural collaboration. This prompted the development of the construct of cultural intelligence, identifying the elements enabling individuals and organisations to thrive in diverse settings. ### What are the four capabilities of cultural intelligence? 1. Drive (Motivation): The genuine interest and willingness to engage and be effective across cultural contexts. ### Is cultural intelligence only about nationality, ethnicity, or faith? No. Culture encompasses far more than nationality or ethnicity. Cultural intelligence aids in navigating complexity across all forms of group identity, including micro-cultures, workplace cultures, gender, hearing communities, and even issues such as menopause or disability. Every group dynamic can generate unique cultural norms and expectations. ### Why is developing cultural intelligence important for leaders? Culturally intelligent leaders are better equipped to foster inclusive environments where everyone can contribute and thrive. CQ enables leaders to create systems, policies, and cultures that account for, and respond to, diverse needs. Rather than defaulting to rigid practices or unconscious biases, culturally intelligent leaders exercise intentionality, self-awareness, and effective behaviour management. ### What is the greatest challenge in applying cultural intelligence? One major challenge is changing behaviour—moving from knowledge and good intentions to actual behavioural adaptation. Many people revert to their comfort zones or default patterns when faced with difference or discomfort. Sustained behavioural change requires conscious effort, feedback, and habit formation. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where where everyone not only belongs but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, You can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to joe.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 217. With the title Leading with Cultural Intelligence. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Lucy Butters. Lucy is an author, cultural intelligence master facilitator, and founder of Elembee, who works with individuals and organisations to strengthen inclusive leadership, intercultural competence, and collaboration in a globalized, complex world. And when I asked Lucy to describe her superpower, she said that is her ability to build strong, supportive networks and communities and to connect people in ways that help them thrive, whilst always being willing to ask for support and bring others together with clarity and heart. Hello Lucy, welcome to the show. Lucy Butters: Thank you, that was a lovely introduction, Joanne, appreciate it. Glad to be here. Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely made up to pieces because you've been in this game, I think you said, for since 2013, I think you said. Lucy Butters: 2013. Joanne Lockwood: Without giving your age away, that's 13 years working in cultural intelligence. Lucy Butters: Yeah. And before that I was kind of doing so, but without the language. You know, it's, um, I was asked in 2013 by the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education to design a course in cultural intelligence, and I thought, I've never heard of that language. But having my own business which supported internationalisation in universities, I thought, I'll go and do that, because you think you've got to say yes when you've got your own business. And then I discovered about it, and there just happened to be a certification going on with Dr. David Livermore. Anyone who's done any thinking about cultural intelligence will be familiar with that name. In Edinburgh, just quite close to me in Glasgow, so I had to go. And on discovering it, I thought, yeah, this approach makes sense to me. Joanne Lockwood: So I— cultural intelligence is not this new modern woke thing that's sort of come out of the woodwork in the last 2 or 3 years to disadvantage the super majority of people out there, is, is about helping people understand more about different cultures. Is that, is that what it's all about? Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And the original research started in the year 2000 by, um, now Professor Sunang in Singapore. And she had been involved— this, you talked about showing our ages, this, if you remember this, this shows it even more. But the 90s, everyone was concerned about the millennium bug, the idea that when we hit 2000, All the systems that relied on computers would kind of implode and different things wouldn't work. And lots of people were involved in how we respond to that because people had been saving date data differently in their systems. And in some ways, Sun Ang was involved. I don't really know how, but her observation was that often you were bringing the brightest people in their field together from across the world. And yet together they were often suboptimal. You know, has a decision been made? Who's to take that forward? What really did we agree? Did we not agree? And it got her fascinated in what sits below the surface in that kind of cultural piece that would enable people to communicate and work better together. So the, the research is quite— over 2 and a half decades it's been going on for. Joanne Lockwood: I was working in the IT field at the time. I was working for a bank in London at the time. Well, actually just before the time. So at the time, I think we look back on it and think, well, that was a huge overhype and people worried about their fridge freezer stopping working overnight or their microwave cutting out or something. Uh, and it was just a big damn squib, but I think that was down to the fact it was overhyped. That actually everybody out there who had systems with, with two-digit date codes actually did something about it. Lucy Butters: Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And it wasn't— we didn't just sleepwalk into this, the new millennia, and watch these dates roll over and everything crashed. So yeah, I think we did take it seriously at the time. Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And I think there was also that bit of memory. You talk about fridge freezers and microwaves, there are also nuclear plants. You know, there was big serious stuff that when you looked at some of the, um, elements linked to it, you realise the importance of us being able to interact well and communicate and agree things together. Joanne Lockwood: I think, I think the actual couple of years leading up to the year 2000, I actually started my own business. And one of the things I was doing was selling Y2K audits. And I was, I was running around people's computers with a little floppy disk, putting it in, switching it on, and it would give a, yes, this one's okay. And I'd be putting green stickers on these little— and I was charging a fortune just to go around and, and run this little programme on people's systems. Tick, yes, tick, tick, tick. Lucy Butters: I believe lots of people in IT made good money at the time, which wasn't the field I was in. I was in education. Yeah, absolutely. Joanne Lockwood: I was, I suppose, being IT literate at the time, I appreciated the potential risk, but to the average small business, it was, it was negligible. I mean, today it's a completely different world. All the systems are online, it's all SaaS systems, you know, very little investment in the local machine. So, Yeah, your provider is going to sort most of it out. But yeah, at the time it was, yeah, it was interesting. But going back to where we started this conversation, it's really interesting that, uh, the master practitioner of, of cultural intelligence used that as a, a lever, if you like, or an instigator to see the different ways people reacted to situations. Lucy Butters: Yeah, it got— so the research was what enabled some people to thrive and be successful whilst others really struggle and fail across culture. Um, and they discovered there are 4 capabilities. That are consistently high with individuals and organisations that work well with cultural difference, and together they called them cultural intelligence. And so there's those 4 capabilities I'll talk about in a moment, but it's also rooted in that intelligence theories, so it's really grounded. So, you know, we used to have IQ until in the '60s somebody went, wait a minute, are you really intelligent if all you can do is think, what about your ability to use that thinking or your motivation to use it? So we came up with that construct— I say we, I had nothing to do with it whatsoever— but they came up with that construct of multifaceted intelligences, of which emotional intelligence, I think, is the most well-known. Cultural intelligence, I think, in this world where there's so much movement, where things are changing in all sorts of different ways. There's been research that shows it's more important than IQ and EQ in our complex, very changing— both organisations and societies and for people. So it's kind of, it's rooted in those theories. And the capabilities, I'd said I would come back to them. So we've got motivation. What's your motivation to even want to be effective working with this person or cross this bridge? What's our knowledge about our similarities or difference? And crucially, self-knowledge, I think, is a massive piece in here. What creates a rub for you when you hear certain things or witness certain things, or when people don't respond— these different things. The metacognition piece, the strategy, thinking about our thinking, how aware of we— of what's going on with others, with ourself. We said this is leadership, the stats on leaders being self-aware are very, very low because they often don't get feedback. So that bit about our awareness is so important, and checking and planning. And then of course, I think the bit that's the hardest piece is changing behaviors, you know, that, that bit. When I was interviewing people from a book, that was the capability that most of these people who were experts around the world in cultural intelligence said this is the capability that was what was hardest for them personally. And I think lots of us, we get a bit of knowledge and we think, woo-hoo, and I know what to do, you know, I know how to react with this group of people over there. But actually, knowledge doesn't take away that rub when you come up against something different. And so we often go back into our own ways of doing— I What Joanne Lockwood: you're saying there is part of this means you have to be highly cognizant all of the time. You can't, you can't be consciously inclusive by default. It's an active state of mind, constantly checking yourself as to who aren't I thinking about? What, what's going on in this situation? Subroutine going on in your head, really, really testing out these scenarios. That requires a lot of effort for people. And people generally default back to the comfort lane. This is just, I'll just go back to my default position. And it's not until you, you put yourself into this heightened state of conscious awareness of what's going on, self-awareness, awareness situation, that you can start to manage and self-regulate. But most people don't want to do that. And I think that's what you're saying there is this rub, this, this, this thing, people are coming across, the hardest bit is actually putting all the strategy, the knowledge, and the drive and everything together to actually take logical action. Lucy Butters: I love what you said there, Jo, that bit about intention. You have to be intentionally inclusive. I think there's an awful lot of it, tok tok. If only we were X, Y, and Z, then we'd be inclusive. But actually, our contexts, our organizations, our societies keep changing. And so there's always something new. And I think once you experience the benefits of being more inclusive— so for example, on an individual level, I'm aware I hold a lack of trust for much longer than I used to. I used to think, I'm not very sure what's going on here, so back away. Whereas now I'll still feel that, oh, there's something that I'm not aware of, but I can explore it. And it's led to me, for example, do some fantastic work in interesting places in the world because I can hold on to that and explore the opportunity for longer. And I think once people experience that there's benefits to inclusion, then you can kind of get drawn in and You can't do it all the time. You're absolutely right. We need, we need downtime. However, when we're at the start, for example, of projects, of programs, whatever, that's a really crucial time to be really paying attention and being really intentional. Joanne Lockwood: Inclusion, or DEI, EDI, however you want to do it, is getting a bit of a bad, bad rap at the moment. You know, we saw a political party come out and saying if they ever got into government, Scrap the Equality Act and all this stuff we're doing now is, is a waste of time, it's a waste of money, it's denying the best people the opportunities, it's promoting people beyond their capability. And that's got everyone, you know, obviously the purpose of that, that, that news article was to stir debate and to, and to try and control the narrative. Yeah, let's not be, let's not think it is actually a real thing. So where's it, where's it all going wrong? Lucy Butters: I don't know if it is going wrong. I, I wonder if there's a reaction against it, which is different. And one of the things that cultural intelligence, you know, you, you've got to want it. Same as inclusion, you've got to want it. Joanne Lockwood: Well, the first one is drive, isn't it? You have to, you have to want it. Lucy Butters: In the young, for example, numbers who have the expectation is much higher. It's looking, as I said, societies keep changing. And obviously in the States, you know, we have people who are in, have been in EDI roles for years, are struggling. However, What I think is the need for people to thrive, however you want to describe that, is always important. You know, I think we were— before we came on, before in our chat, I was talking about my great-auntie Ruth, who had always said, where there's house room, there's— where there's heart room, there's house room, about us visiting all the time. Now, my great-auntie Ruth, who's no longer in the world, um, but She was dux of her school, you know, the person who won the prize for the brightest person there. But when she left school, she went into service because that's what people from her background did. All her grandkids, they're doctors, they're radio producers, they're, they're bright, bright people. And I think what a waste that this super bright woman cleaned people's stuff for years, because that's what you did when you were from that background. Even you say about, you know, getting the best people into jobs, you've We've got to have things like the Equalities Act that enables people from different backgrounds. I agree that we need the best people in the jobs, and there's lots of people who could be that best person. You know, they look very different, they sound different. Joanne Lockwood: Do you think some of the problem is that we've, we've ended up disenfranchising people through some of these language, some of the identities? And I mean, we haven't put enough cultural intelligence into understanding people who are seen to be the default privileged. And then we've just written them off as being okay and having it all. We need to create equity down here, but we've, we've kind of, we've, we've forgotten that we're chipping away at somebody else's equity. Lucy Butters: I think there are things like that. And I was thinking recently about, um, the Glasgow Film Festival is starting this week and it's opening with the film Everyone to Kenmuir Street, which is about a spontaneous a civil protest about a dawn raid on people, you know, people who'd immigrated. And the people created a shield around it, that— around the Home Office van. And so it ended up that 5 years ago, those men are still in Glasgow. But next to that narrative, you've also got the narrative of people protesting outside asylum hotels that are being used for people seeking asylum. And so it's kind of the two— you can't say one is Scotland and one isn't because the two examples coexist. And I think often when there's tension, you get that fight or flight or maybe freeze kind of, um, reactions. And there's bits about understanding where people are with identity that I think sometimes space isn't created for that conversation. I volunteered for a number of years with an organisation called Saliha, which was set up post-9/11 about establishing constructive dialogue between students in Arab countries and students in America. We worked with people over a semester, and it was fantastic because you sort of moved from arguing the position to thinking, who were you when you started to think that? How do people around you think? So you start to develop a sense of who this person, or who this community, is in terms of things like identity. And I think often that time and curiosity isn't taken, and it creates barriers later. You know, it's like if you don't create scenarios where you can get people on board, it creates problems later. And we often rush to solve issues. And that would be, if we're talking about leaders, I often hear about leaders and they rush to solve without sometimes thinking, well, how can I empower this group here? Think about that. Joanne Lockwood: You, you touched on a couple of times around the first, uh, capability is, is, is the drive. You've gotta wanna find out, you've gotta want to be more culturally intelligent. You gotta be, have that self-will. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta want to do something. I can speak from my own experience that, you know, going back in my life 15 years ago, I didn't care. I, I, I didn't think I had to, I didn't need to. It's only when you, something happens to you in your life with you're getting older, your eyesight fails, you can't hear as well, you're stiffer, you can't walk as quick, you need an escalator. And then you develop other marginalised characteristics, whatever they may be, then you start to realise and appreciate that you need to find out more. And I started working with some charities around, um, deafness and hard of— being hard of hearing and hearing loops. And I spent a lot of time just finding out about the different dimensions to being deaf and hard of hearing. And I just thought, well, everyone lip reads or sign writes and you got this, And it turns out this is a multifaceted characteristic. And at that point there was, I think, was my first venture into the drive to find out more about a different community, a different culture, the deaf community. And if you've never come across that, that, that thing that sparks you, you're always just going to keep walking on by. That's, that's where we are really, isn't it? To get the CQ into people's heads as something that is Actually, it benefits me as well. Lucy Butters: I think it's definitely something needed. I had been working with the British Council, soft diplomacy, and it really changed my focus out to the world. So when I first did— when I set up my own business in 2010, I was very clear I still wanted that kind of international possibility as part of that. So I thought my CQ drive would be really high. Certainly my highest capability. When I first did an assessment in 2013, it was okay, but it wasn't all that, and it wasn't my highest capability, and it really made me pause and reflect and think about, you know, dunnae, diversity when it's kind of like me. And I think that's quite an uncomfortable question. So things like, for example, politics was a space I wasn't comfortable in. I'm now much more comfortable in that space. Like you talking about hearing and the personal experience, absolutely. And as we go through life, so, you know, I had a week where I found out I was expecting triplets, and when I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and you definitely— and 20 years ago now— you definitely discover through lots of that things that, you know, trying to get about the physical environment with that with 3 babies, you realise that nothing is made for you. And people who park up on pavements, for example, you realise that's really unkind for all sorts of different people. So it kind of— absolutely personal experience shifts focus and makes you realize— I was at a— the Citizens Theatre in Glasgow has been reopened recently. It's meant to be for everyone, you know, totally accessible. But I went in and the only staircase in this theatre space was up the middle with no handrails. So I don't really have very good depth perception, I don't have very good balance. The idea of going down, let alone up, a staircase with no handrail— and I was like, you know, they think they're accessible but they've got spaces if you're a wheelchair user and then and then be able-bodied, please. Nothing in between. And I thought, who exactly, as you were saying, who have they spoken to? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And that, that's one of the— I think I discovered a shortfall in the Equality Act is that to be classed as a disabled or a disability, it has to be something that is perceived over more than one year. So for anybody who's like my wife, just had a total knee replacement, or, and we've had some surgery and are— or got a family member who's going through some cancer treatment. These are temporary disabilities and you're not entitled to disabled badges or parking or certain other benefits and things. So sometimes the laws we have are very binary and absolute. You either qualify or you don't qualify. Yet you still experience, although it may necessarily on a long-term, but maybe a temporary basis, the same impact as someone who suffers it long-term. So we, we've gotta be careful here that we're not designing systems just for the law. Design systems to, yeah, the equity to enable people to succeed. And I think that cultural intelligence aspect to understand how it impacts people who are— have that characteristic, albeit temporary. Lucy Butters: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, MS, it's temporary, often, symptoms. So it never comes under that, anything that I've had comes up, but sometimes even walking is quite problematic, but there's nothing within that. So as you say, and I think generally things are messy, but the law is binary, you know, so we look to the law sometimes, but actually for organizations, they need to think about in this more messy situation where we want people to contribute well because we want to achieve whatever it is that we are trying to achieve, how do we design things well in this? For this context, for this group of people in our policies and procedures, which can't upend the law, but they can add nuance into it. Joanne Lockwood: Hmm. So, when we talk about cultural intelligence, I, I always think one of the biggest mistakes is, is the word culture because people latch on to that meaning someone's faith, someone's race, someone's ethnicity, those kind of sort of things we associate with being culture. And I, I just touched on, you know, the deaf community and the culture of deafness. Us. So we, we often think culture is just these, yeah, it's, it's someone else's music, someone else's dress codes, but cultural intelligence is actually around the culture of menopause, the culture of feminism, the culture of wherever it may be. There's a whole load of little micro cultures that the cultural intelligence also allows you to use the same capabilities to explore those as well, doesn't it? Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And one of the things I often start with people is even thinking about what they mean by the word culture. You know, that's often a— and always so many questions, and typically everybody's got a different word that they would maybe use to describe it. And so instantly you see how complex it is. And so for me, cultural intelligence is around navigating that complexity. And I think as soon as we get into groups, we start creating culture. You know, who gets heard here? Do we joke? Do we snack? You know, all these tiny little different details that if we keep meeting or keep communicating in whatever networks we've set up, we create a kind of culture. So in every place, as you say, there's lots of subcultures. And in organizations, you know, that could be— I remember reading something about how we learn. I think it was a— Kolb was one of the authors. And it was, you know, the most important thing— they were looking at postgraduates, people doing a second degree, and the most important thing and what people like, why people like the approach you did, was about their first degree. So how we've learned to think about things more so than nationality, age, gender, you know, these different things that, as you say, we often instantly jump to when we're thinking about Culture. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Uh, and I think that can be seen as a bit of a turnoff and it's just trying to think about what's my culture as a white person? Are white people allowed to have culture? Lucy Butters: Everybody, everybody has culture, Joe. It's all— it's— yeah. Joanne Lockwood: But, but we look at some of the nationalisms going on, you know, being Scottish, you're allowed to be nationalistic. You're allowed to have the saltire, you're allowed to have the St. Andrew's flag everywhere. You're allowed to be proudly Scottish. I think there's always been a stigma about being overly proud to be English. And you know, you could be Welsh, you could be Scottish, you could be Irish, but English is just seen as the oppressor and you should never be proud to be English. And I think that's what's come out of some of the, the rhetoric coming out of some, some circles at the moment is why can't we fly the English flag whenever we feel like it? We can fly the Ukrainian flag, we can fly the Palestinian flag. Why can't we fly the English flag or St. George's Cross occasionally? And I think sometimes the British nation, if nations have, have been split and the English have had a, a, a poor rap on, on, on having it, you know, to be nationalistic. Lucy Butters: And what would you like to see? Joanne Lockwood: I'm proudly British. I don't class myself English. I wasn't born in this country. So yeah, I, I don't, uh, I, I don't, I'm not, even though I've lived in England for all my, all of my life, except for when I worked in Scotland for a while. Um, I'm just curious, you know, it's— maybe this is where we're disenfranchising people, where people see that they can do this, but why can't we? Lucy Butters: Yeah. And I'm unclear, 'cause I'm, I'm married to an Englishman and it's kind of, um, and his family who I would see a lot of the Scottish sensibilities of Scotland to England, but I see them against France and Germany, you know, it's the same thing. And I think there is something about power, but there's something about unravelling that and thinking, what do you want to be? How do you want to be seen? How— what do you want this to— how do you want this to be seen? Because sometimes, although you're saying it's okay for flags to be used, now I live in Glasgow, if you look at our main football teams, you will never see a saltire, or rarely see it. So it's kind of— it's much more complex than, I'll just say this about Scotland, or I'll just say this England, and that's what I mean, there's a complexity in there. So how do we open up these conversations and make it— different things okay? And what I hear you saying is about the disenfranchising, who's been disenfranchised, and I think that's important. And I also think it's important to think at the moment there's a lot of that being used in a power way to shut down the conversations. You're not accepting my voice, therefore— but actually that's being shouted. So it's, it's, as I say, it's just always complex, and I'm always curious. I wrote a post on LinkedIn the other day. I'd been on the train, and there was two women sitting opposite me immersed in books, which is quite rare in itself to see people with books out on the train. One was reading a book called Feminist City, and the other was reading a book called The New Age of Sexism, I think. Neither which I was read, but I just thought, you know, that's two young women interested in their context and reading about something like that. And I've got me thinking about, you know, young women. There's much more young women moving to the left than there are men moving to the right, but we don't hear it. So who's setting the agenda, you know, that, that power piece? And I think that's always useful to have in your thinking also. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I think, isn't it a sort of traditionally you move to the right as you get older? Um, allegedly. Lucy Butters: Allegedly. And I, again, I would say anything that's about a whole group, that it doesn't count to everyone in the group. That, that, that would be how I would respond to everything. Joanne Lockwood: You can't generalize. You can't generalize. No. Lucy Butters: It's about percentages. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. You're just making stuff up to justify your claim if you're not careful, aren't you? Come up with the statistic. But yeah, it's— I think we got— we do have to recognise that everyone, everyone is unique and we have different affinity groups. We have different subcultures, big cultures. And if we don't take the time to find out about those different drivers in people's lives or what they need, then either we'll become disenfranchised or we'll disenfranchise them or we won't speak to them. And that's what I think what's happening is where this anti-DEI or the anti-wokeness pushback is that people have felt disenfranchised by the need to include people. That some people are saying, well, hang on a minute, you're not including me in these conversations. You're telling me as a white man, I, I'm the problem. I'm— as a, a white person, I should be more, more, more sorry for the atrocities of slavery. Lucy Butters: And I would say it's never about the identity. And as soon as we start saying it this identity group. It's about behaviors. What behaviours are we using? And I think most people will come in and say— and this is a key thing for leadership— it's about what behaviours are you tolerating, or are you modeling, or are you valuing when you see another? So you're trying to encourage that behavior. And I think we can get lost in conversations that are about identity when what would be really useful is sometimes thinking, but actually it's not just about you understanding me and me understanding you. It's about what are we trying to do here? What behaviours will help us? Joanne Lockwood: That, that's a really good point. You can, you can manage behaviors, but you can't manage or police people's identities. Lucy Butters: 100%. Joanne Lockwood: And if people, if you set a behavioural expectation and people are meeting that expectation, That's all you can do. Um, if, if it's just a discomfort, if it's just a kind of, oh, I don't like that, that's not a valid, a valid reason to deny somebody or exclude somebody. It has to be a behaviour that you can quantify tangibly and manage. Lucy Butters: And also often that bit about not liking something and feeling that rub, it's— that's the growth space. You know, it's also what's the potential in that of leaning into that and seeing where it takes you. And I think sometimes Sometimes we forget about that as well in lots of conversations about inclusion. It's about— there's an awful lot of talk that's about understand that person and respond to them. When you're in a group situation, I'm aware as a trainer, you know, I can't respond to every individual. I can never be everything for everyone at the same time. It's not possible. What we can do as a group is agree behaviours and And, you know, think about that and think about our purpose in the group. Joanne Lockwood: Mm. Well, going back to the four capabilities, I, I always think that, but the third one is, is really, really important. The, uh, the strategy element. I was, I would refer to it, yeah, a little knowledge, you become armed and dangerous. You think you know a lot about a topic and you then go flying off into the distance to say, you, you jump straight into action. Without actually sitting with strategy for a while. And then that's where you, you kind of contextualise it, you, you test drive it, you, you pick it apart, you become really, really knowledgeable with lived experience, things like that. And a lot of people just jump straight into action, and that's where the, the language falls over, or they upset people. They haven't got the tools in the toolkit to recover that situation then, have they? Lucy Butters: Absolutely. I feel that you should read my book. I think that you've almost been like a sub-editor on it or something. Absolutely. You know, interviewing the people around the world, as I did, you know, that bit about the strategy. People were saying, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, if I hear an idea, I just want to get on with it, or the context around me isn't very long-term focused, it's about do, do, do, do, do. And many of us will have been in situations like that. But you're absolutely right, if you ask people when they've taken the time just to sit with their knowledge a little and Think, okay, how will I impact in a more positive way with this group? And even having that thought and thinking about it, super useful. And then having the awareness afterwards to think, how did it go? And what could I have changed? And all these different things. What could I do differently? Joanne Lockwood: That constant feedback loop in your head, isn't it? It's almost like— yeah, I do a lot of training on, on challenging conversations. One of the things is you, you're always trying to start with the end in mind. You want a positive outcome, whatever that may be. So if you're always in the conversation or in your head saying, I want this to be a positive experience, I want this to come out in a positive way, I want this to— if I get it wrong, how do I put my— put, you know, I think about it as playing a scaletrix. Remember, if you squeeze the trigger too hard, the car goes flying off on the corners. Lucy Butters: Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: So you gotta, you gotta try and somehow try and find the right position on the trigger. The, the car goes all the way around the track. It doesn't go the fastest, but it goes steady. And it's trying to find that way of, of that feedback loop. If it keeps flying off in the corner, how do I correct? How do I go back? How do I— where's my plan B or plan C or plan Z? Lucy Butters: Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And that's that knowledge and the strategy coming together though, isn't it? Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And I think, and also the motivation when you're saying, I want the outcome to be a positive one, you know, you're seeing the whole The whole CQ in action there, I think how you describe that, and I often think CQ is a development tool, but it's also a planning tool, and difficult conversations can be one of them. You know, that bit about what does better look like? What's our motivation here? What do we know? And then that strategy piece, what do we not know? Who we've not spoken to? You know, all these— what are my assumptions and how are they coming through? And what will we agree to do? And a bit like you were saying, that bit about coming back to better, conversations never follow a plan. However, if you've got it in your head, you can kind of keep looking— looping back to it so that you can get to a more positive place. And I've used CQ in that way also, where there's conflict. I've found a useful framework. Joanne Lockwood: It's, it's alert behavior, EQ, CQ, alert behaviors, aren't they? There is a cognitive load and it's, it's an uncomfortable load when you first start thinking about it, but the more, you know, the brain's plastic, the brain's going to adapt. If you keep giving it these pathways, it becomes more natural. I keep talking about the word subroutine because, you know, my IT background, I know that I've got a subroutine that I can just branch into diplomatic, my, my cognitive awareness, my conscious inclusion, my you matter to me subroutine. And I've got all these different things firing off, but I have to have— I've built those, those routines in my head to know how to navigate this. Whereas I'd say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, I just had one plan and that was my plan without thinking about others. Lucy Butters: Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: So you have to build these pathways. Lucy Butters: Absolutely. It's like a muscle, you know, it's kind of And habit. Um, the research suggests when we build habit, it gets easier. You know, it's kind of— so there's research about, yes, people are going to have bias, et cetera, et cetera. But if we build in the habit of being intentionally thinking about it, that becomes our habit. We build that muscle, and that's very doable. That's doable. And I think that's a really optimistic and hopeful message in terms of where we at, at the moment where I think there's a lot of negativity. And I think this bit is, we can be hopeful. We have capability. We can build it. Joanne Lockwood: The other thing we need to be mindful of is we don't need to be right, do we? A lot of people want to be right. Mm-hmm. Lucy Butters: Yeah. And, and we— that bit about, um, we're taught to be right, we're, we're valued for being right. If you think about schooling and hands up, you know, and who's right and who's wrong. And if you look at news, there's always two sides, and it's— in the UK, it's kind of like there's two sides to a story. And we talked about the law being binary, you know, this kind of right and wrong. But really, it's, as you say, we, we can't be right all the time, and things are often much messier than right or wrong. So we've got to have the capability to operate well in that space. Joanne Lockwood: I've been married nearly 40 years, 39 years this, this year. I've said to people, you can't be right and happy. You certainly can't be, you can't be right and be married. It's not about saying it's about compromise where everyone loses. It's about trying to find a pathway where everybody feels they've been respected, listened to, cared about. Their thoughts are, are being investigated, considered. And you, you don't have to have your opinion all the time, but you have to feel that at least you contributed. And that's the belongingness, isn't it? Contributing to the overall goal. You care about me, you listen to me, my voice matters, even though I'm not always the, the chosen voice. Lucy Butters: Yeah, I love that. And I see that in my relationship with my husband, but I, I think about my dad as well. My dad was a minister of the Church of Scotland, a religious minister. And I am not religious, you know, and so I know that I must have hurt him with that, that, that's not a comfortable thing for him, and I loved him entirely. And, but you can hurt the people you love and it still be okay. You know, my dad was proud of me. We had a wonderful relationship. So absolutely, it's, um, I, I love what you've just said and shared. Joanne Lockwood: My mum is quite religious. She goes to, the church is, is a fairly big part of her life. She goes to classes and, something called Alpha. I dunno if that's a universal thing, but she does a lot of that. And she, she's, she's never, she's never overtly religious, but she has, she's got a deep faith. And she said something, it wasn't to me, she said something to my wife the other day that she sees a lot of Christianity in me recently. And I, and I thought when she said that, I thought, what do you mean there? What do you mean is she sees a lot of good person in me that she never saw before, and she's equated that to, to the word Christianity. I don't equate it to Christianity. I just think about it being a decent human being who cares about others. Which should be the basis of most religions in the world. But we often get confused and, and start a war because we want our, our deity to be more powerful than your deity or whatever it may be. So it, it's, it's, I think most of us wanna get up in the morning and be good people, don't we? Lucy Butters: I think so. I think so. And I think you just came back to that bit about, um, being right or wrong, my deity, you know, that, That's my way of thinking. And if we could explore that a bit, like going back, explore that in terms of, well, we all have different ways of thinking because we've all had different things that we've learned and different experiences, and that's shaped each of us, you know. Even if it looks from the outside that we might think the same, if we got down into deeper conf— there, there'd be areas where we're massively different, you know, with people that you group together. It's just It's just how it is. So I think just accepting that, and I think from your mum, that would have been a compliment. Joanne Lockwood: It was. I took it, I took it as a massive compliment and it made me, what it made me realise actually, my mum has actually said to me that I've, I've changed her outlook considerably since my gender transition. And she was, one might say, as a Daily Mail reading, GB News watcher, she, she was not necessarily the most left-leaning person out there. So yeah. You know, and I've introduced her to a, a broader perspective on life that she never had before. And she's— I've, I've caused her to question what she believes and, and thinks and, and sees the world differently and maybe doesn't shoot from the hip as often as she used to. And, and for someone who, who purports to be a person of faith, she was maybe a bit too quick to be polarized. And so I think, I think I've, I've helped to see a broader perspective. I was chatting to somebody the other week and they introduced me to my new favourite word, which I'd never come across in the past. Are you aware of this? The word is— word of the century for me is equanimity. Lucy Butters: And is that about balance? Am I understanding that word? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's so, it's so I always keep it on the screen so I remember it. And it's the ability to stay calm, balanced, and composed, especially in difficult, stressful, or emotionally charged situations. I always think bit, to be able to hold space for two opposing views without feeling you can't cope with that. You know, that paradox is there, you know, your rights, my rights, whatever it may be. You can sit back and go, I can live in this space with this confusion. I can live in this space with this conflict. I can maintain my calm and composure and we, I can talk about this and it's— being able to sit with discomfort in these challenging conversations, I think, is a fantastic word. And I, I realised that it should be the heart of all of our, our being, if you like, you know, when we're trying to build equity and systems and cultures and values and belonging and all this kind of stuff we talked about. Lucy Butters: And may I ask, cause I'm listening and I'm nodding ahead and the little question that's going in my head is the question of, do you believe you should fight for what you believe in? Cause that's different from holding space. Joanne Lockwood: That reminds me of the, uh, Saturday morning TV, the fight, feel There was a song, wasn't there? It's an old black and white Spanish dub. Lucy Butters: Fight for your right to party. Joanne Lockwood: It's that song. It's like, do I— should you have to fight for your right? It depends who you're fighting because you've got to start the perspective that the other person believes that they're right. They believe that they have their right to party. They have their right to be, to be right. And by going in believing you have, you have to fight for your right implies that almost sets yourself up to have a battle. And so I, I would always go into those situations by trying to figure out what the other person's perspective is first. You know, what was your why? Why do you believe that? What's— what, what is your grounding point here that you're trying to get across to me or defend against me? And at that point there, I often talk about avoiding talking about outcomes and talking about perspectives because we can understand why someone believes something. We don't have to agree. We'd have to agree with the outcome. Come, but I can understand why your lived experience says you believe something, and that could be your upbringing, as you say, you know, the part of Scotland you grew up in, your religious faith, the family, or an event that happened when you were little. All these things dictate how you can turn out and how you, you know, why you might want to vote for this particular political party. I can understand why, and I appreciate this is your, this is your podcast, not mine, But I always use the example of Novak Djokovic. Do you remember when he was barred from entering Australia? Lucy Butters: Oh yes. Because he hadn't taken the COVID injection, the COVID vaccine. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So I, I'm a, I'm a pro-vax person, you know, as far as I'm concerned, roll my sleeve up and stick it in me and, uh, and whatever it may be. And I was determined to not like Djokovic over this. You know, as far as I'm concerned, he, he is a role model. He was setting an example to people. And so I was determined I was like him. I saw him on an interview with BBC News and he, the first things he said was when they, when they questioned about it, he said, well, I, I deserve and have the right to have agency over my own body. And I thought, poof, that, that floored me because yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I would fight for my right to have agency over my own body. Yeah, tick. Agree. I agree with you. I agree with you. And then he took accountability. And said, if that, if that means I, I cannot enter Australia, I cannot compete in the tennis tournament, so be it. I will leave. I thought, wow. So he's, he's got a principle, which is agency, and he's willing to be accountable for it and do what is right in the, in, in the circumstance. I thought, what do I thought? This guy is so grounded. Yeah. And I, I don't agree with not being vaccinated. I don't agree with what he did, But everything he's done and the why he's done it, I can't fault. So I can hold that space and, and disagree with him in what he did, but not why he did it. I agree why he did it. I actually agree that he had the right to do that. Lucy Butters: Absolutely. And that's all the time. Usually we have, you know, we, we can make choices about whether we follow the law or not. For example, that's what democratic protest, or even if you're in a, you know, non-democratic protest, but you know, so we have But there is that bit about accountability and holding space. It's so important for my work, you know, that not taking judgement in. And as you just said in that storey about responding to the Djokovic interview, being prepared to hear and think, all right, okay, I wouldn't have done that. However, I can see where you're coming from. And I think that's such an important part of developing others and working with others. Joanne Lockwood: Lucy, it's been absolutely fascinating. We've been yakking off for best part of an hour and a half, including our little, uh, our little sojourn in the green room. We were talking, you know, it's a shame we don't live closer cuz I'd love to just meet for a coffee somewhere. We, I'm sure we could spend hours together just yakking about this. How can people get hold of you? And I wanna find out more about your book. Lucy Butters: So people can get hold of me at lucybutters.com. That's the easiest place. Or you can search me down on LinkedIn, Lucy Butters. The book is Cultural Intelligence in Practice. It's available online. Most re— book retailers in the UK are Barnes Noble, in the States, but Amazon and other places. Please get in touch if you can't find it, if you're in one of those places that Amazon does not reach. And the book is really talking to people who develop others. How do we inspire others? How do we build our Cultural intelligence when we're working with other people, how to be— keep that intentionality that we spoke to, whilst also inspiring others to develop theirs, because it contributes so much to inclusion and effective organizations. Joanne Lockwood: So for leaders, people leading themselves, manage themselves in the workplace, or even you're curious about being curious, it's a, it's a great place to start. Will it be available on Audible as well? Lucy Butters: I hope eventually, it's not at the moment. So come back to me on that one. Joanne Lockwood: I'm an Audible person. I, when I go for a dog walk, I, I, I fire up a— so I don't do podcasts so much, but I do Audible books and, uh, yeah. So, but yeah, so I'll, I may just invest. I may invest in the meantime. So I'll put the link in, in the show notes. Thank you. And if you're curious, when does it publish? Lucy Butters: It was published in November last year, 2022. Joanne Lockwood: November last year. Yeah, excellent. So please do cheque out Lucy's LinkedIn, cheque out the book, links in, in the show notes. Lucy, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you. I've really enjoyed this. And, uh, no doubt when we, when I press stop, we'll have a quick word and a quick natter anyway. So thank you so much. Lucy Butters: I look forward to that coffee sometime too. Absolutely. Thank you. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever-growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share, I'm all ears. Reach out to joe.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.