Joanne Lockwood welcomes Lucy Butters to discuss cultural intelligence as a vital leadership skill, exploring motivation, self-awareness, and behaviour change as keys to thriving in diverse workplaces. They challenge misconceptions and highlight the ongoing effort required to foster genuine inclusion amid evolving social dynamics.
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Lucy Butters to explore the nuanced art of leading with cultural intelligence. Together, they unpick how genuine inclusion requires far more than surface-level policies or token gestures. The dialogue underscores the importance of intentionality, self-awareness, and the motivation to bridge cultural differences. Joanne reflects on the lessons learnt from her own evolving understanding of inclusion, while Lucy articulates how cultural intelligence operates as an ongoing developmental tool, equipping individuals and organisations to navigate complexity, challenge assumptions, and foster authentic belonging.
Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for boldconversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey ofexploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, andsocietal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create aworld where where everyone not only belongs butthrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover theunseen, challenge the status quo, and share storeys thatresonate deep within. Ready to divein? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day,let's connect, reflect, and inspire actiontogether. Don't forget, You can be part of the conversationtoo. Reach out to [email protected]to share your insights or to join me on theshow. So adjust your earbuds and settlein. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with InclusionBites.And today is episode217. With the title Leading with CulturalIntelligence. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome LucyButters. Lucy is an author, cultural intelligence masterfacilitator, and founder of Elembee, who works withindividuals and organisations to strengthen inclusive leadership, interculturalcompetence, and collaboration in a globalized, complexworld. And when I asked Lucy to describe her superpower, she said that isher ability to build strong, supportive networks and communities and toconnect people in ways that help them thrive, whilst always being willing toask for support and bring others together with clarity andheart. Hello Lucy, welcome to theshow.
Lucy Buttersguest
Thank you, that was a lovely introduction, Joanne, appreciateit. Glad to be here.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely made up to pieces becauseyou've been in this game, I think you said, for since2013, I think you said.
Lucy Buttersguest
2013.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Without giving your age away, that's 13 years working in culturalintelligence.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah. And before that I was kind of doing so, but without thelanguage. You know, it's, um, I was asked in2013 by the Leadership Foundation for Higher Education to designa course in cultural intelligence, and I thought, I've never heard of thatlanguage. But having my own business which supported internationalisationin universities, I thought, I'll go and do that, because you think you've got to say yeswhen you've got your own business. And then I discovered about it, and there just happened to be acertification going on with Dr. DavidLivermore. Anyone who's done any thinking about culturalintelligence will be familiar with that name. In Edinburgh, just quiteclose to me in Glasgow, so I had to go. And on discovering it, I thought,yeah, this approach makes sense to me.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So I— cultural intelligence is not this new modern woke thing that'ssort of come out of the woodwork in the last 2 or 3 years todisadvantage the super majority of people out there, is, is about helpingpeople understand more about different cultures. Is that, is that what it's allabout?
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. And the original research started in the year 2000by, um, now Professor Sunang inSingapore. And she had been involved— this, you talked about showingour ages, this, if you remember this, this shows it evenmore. But the 90s, everyone was concerned about the millennium bug, the idea that when we hit2000, All the systems that relied on computers would kind ofimplode and different things wouldn't work. And lots of people were involved in howwe respond to that because people had been saving date datadifferently in their systems. And in some ways, Sun Ang wasinvolved. I don't really know how, but her observation was that often you were bringingthe brightest people in their field together from across theworld. And yet together they were oftensuboptimal. You know, has a decision beenmade? Who's to take that forward? What really did weagree? Did we not agree? And it got her fascinated in whatsits below the surface in that kind of cultural piece thatwould enable people to communicate and work bettertogether. So the, the research is quite—over 2 and a half decades it's been going on for.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I was working in the IT field at the time. I was working for a bank in London atthe time. Well, actually just before the time. So at the time, I think we look back onit and think, well, that was a huge overhype and people worried about their fridge freezer stoppingworking overnight or their microwave cutting out or something. Uh, and it was just a big damn squib,but I think that was down to the fact it wasoverhyped. That actually everybody out there who had systems with, withtwo-digit date codes actually did something about it.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And it wasn't— we didn't just sleepwalk into this, the new millennia, and watch these dates rollover and everything crashed. So yeah, I think we did take it seriously at thetime.
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. And I think there was also that bit ofmemory. You talk about fridge freezers and microwaves, there are also nuclearplants. You know, there was big serious stuff that when you looked at some of the,um, elements linked to it, you realise the importance of usbeing able to interact well and communicate and agree thingstogether.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I think, I think the actual couple of years leading up to the year 2000, I actuallystarted my own business. And one of the things I was doing was selling Y2Kaudits. And I was, I was running around people's computers with a little floppy disk,putting it in, switching it on, and it would give a, yes, this one'sokay. And I'd be putting green stickers on these little— and I was charging a fortune just to go around and, and run thislittle programme on people's systems. Tick, yes, tick, tick,tick.
Lucy Buttersguest
I believe lots of people in IT made good money at the time, which wasn'tthe field I was in. I was in education. Yeah,absolutely.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I was, I suppose, being IT literate at the time, I appreciated the potential risk, butto the average small business, it was, it was negligible. I mean, today it's a completely differentworld. All the systems are online, it's all SaaS systems, you know, very little investment in the localmachine. So, Yeah, your provider is going to sort most of itout. But yeah, at the time it was, yeah, it was interesting. But going back to where we started this conversation,it's really interesting that, uh, the master practitioner of, of cultural intelligenceused that as a, a lever, if you like, or an instigator to see the differentways people reacted to situations.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah, it got— so the research was what enabled some people to thriveand be successful whilst others really struggle and fail acrossculture. Um, and they discovered there are 4capabilities. That are consistently high with individuals andorganisations that work well with cultural difference, andtogether they called them cultural intelligence. And so there's those4 capabilities I'll talk about in a moment, but it's alsorooted in that intelligence theories, so it's reallygrounded. So, you know, we used to have IQ until in the '60ssomebody went, wait a minute, are you really intelligent if all you can do is think, what aboutyour ability to use that thinking or your motivationto use it? So we came up with that construct— I say we, I had nothing todo with it whatsoever— but they came up with that construct ofmultifaceted intelligences, of which emotionalintelligence, I think, is the most well-known. Cultural intelligence, I think, inthis world where there's so much movement, where thingsare changing in all sorts of differentways. There's been research that shows it's more important than IQand EQ in our complex, verychanging— both organisations and societies and forpeople. So it's kind of, it's rooted in thosetheories. And the capabilities, I'd said I would come back tothem. So we've got motivation. What's your motivation to even want to be effectiveworking with this person or cross this bridge? What's ourknowledge about our similarities or difference? And crucially, self-knowledge, I think, isa massive piece in here. What creates a rub for you when you hear certain thingsor witness certain things, or when people don't respond— these differentthings. The metacognition piece, the strategy, thinking about ourthinking, how aware of we— of what's going on with others, withourself. We said this is leadership, thestats on leaders being self-aware are very, very low because theyoften don't get feedback. So that bit about our awareness is so important,and checking and planning. And then of course, I think the bit that's the hardestpiece is changing behaviors, you know, that, thatbit. When I was interviewing people from a book, that was the capability thatmost of these people who were experts around the world in cultural intelligence saidthis is the capability that was what was hardest for thempersonally. And I think lots of us, we get a bit of knowledge andwe think, woo-hoo, and I know what to do, you know, I know how to react with this groupof people over there. But actually, knowledge doesn't take away thatrub when you come up against something different. And so we oftengo back into our own ways of doing— I What
Joanne Lockwoodhost
you're saying there is part of this means you have to behighly cognizant all of thetime. You can't, you can't be consciously inclusive bydefault. It's an active state of mind, constantly checking yourselfas to who aren't I thinking about? What, what's going on in thissituation? Subroutine going on in your head, really, really testing out thesescenarios. That requires a lot of effort forpeople. And people generally default back tothe comfort lane. This is just, I'll just go back to my defaultposition. And it's not until you, you put yourself into this heightened state of conscious awarenessof what's going on, self-awareness, awareness situation, that you can start tomanage and self-regulate. But most people don't want to dothat. And I think that's what you're saying there is this rub, this, this, this thing, people are coming across, the hardestbit is actually putting all the strategy, the knowledge, and the drive and everything together toactually take logical action.
Lucy Buttersguest
I love what you said there, Jo, that bit aboutintention. You have to be intentionallyinclusive. I think there's an awful lot of it, toktok. If only we were X, Y, and Z, then we'd beinclusive. But actually, our contexts, our organizations, oursocieties keep changing. And so there's always somethingnew. And I think once you experience thebenefits of being more inclusive— so for example, on an individuallevel, I'm aware I hold a lack of trust for much longer than I usedto. I used to think, I'm not very sure what's going on here, so backaway. Whereas now I'll still feel that, oh, there's something that I'm notaware of, but I can explore it. And it's led to me, forexample, do some fantastic work in interesting places in the world becauseI can hold on to that and explore the opportunity forlonger. And I think once people experience thatthere's benefits to inclusion, then you can kindof get drawn in and You can't do it all thetime. You're absolutely right. We need, we need downtime. However, when we're at thestart, for example, of projects, of programs, whatever, that'sa really crucial time to be really paying attention and being reallyintentional.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Inclusion, or DEI, EDI, however you want to do it, is getting a bit of a bad,bad rap at the moment. You know, we saw a political party come out and saying if theyever got into government, Scrap the Equality Act and all this stuff we're doingnow is, is a waste of time, it's a waste of money, it'sdenying the best people the opportunities, it's promoting people beyond theircapability. And that's got everyone, you know, obviously the purpose of that, that,that news article was to stir debate and to, and to try and control thenarrative. Yeah, let's not be, let's not think it is actually a realthing. So where's it, where's it all going wrong?
Lucy Buttersguest
I don't know if it is going wrong. I, I wonder if there's a reaction against it, which isdifferent. And one of the things that cultural intelligence, you know, you, you've gotto want it. Same as inclusion, you've got to wantit.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Well, the first one is drive, isn't it? You have to, you have to want
Joanne Lockwoodhost
it.
Lucy Buttersguest
In the young, for example, numbers who have the expectation is muchhigher. It's looking, as I said, societies keepchanging. And obviously in the States, you know, we have peoplewho are in, have been in EDI roles for years, arestruggling. However, What I think is the need for peopleto thrive, however you want to describe that, is alwaysimportant. You know, I think we were— before we came on, before in our chat,I was talking about my great-auntie Ruth, who had always said, where there's houseroom, there's— where there's heart room, there's house room, about us visiting all thetime. Now, my great-auntie Ruth, who's no longer in the world, um, butShe was dux of her school, you know, the person who won the prize for the brightestperson there. But when she left school, she went into service because that's what people fromher background did. All her grandkids, they're doctors,they're radio producers, they're, they're bright, brightpeople. And I think what a waste that this super bright woman cleanedpeople's stuff for years, because that's what you did when you were from thatbackground. Even you say about, you know, getting the best people into jobs,you've We've got to have things like the Equalities Act that enables peoplefrom different backgrounds. I agree that we need the best people in the jobs, andthere's lots of people who could be that bestperson. You know, they look very different, they sounddifferent.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Do you think some of the problem is that we've, we've ended up disenfranchising peoplethrough some of these language, some of theidentities? And I mean, we haven't put enough cultural intelligence intounderstanding people who are seen to be the defaultprivileged. And then we've just written them off as being okay and having itall. We need to create equity down here, but we've, we've kind of,we've, we've forgotten that we're chipping away at somebody else's equity.
Lucy Buttersguest
I think there are things like that. And I was thinking recently about, um, theGlasgow Film Festival is starting this week and it'sopening with the film Everyone to Kenmuir Street, which is about a spontaneous acivil protest about a dawn raid on people, youknow, people who'd immigrated. And the people created ashield around it, that— around the Home Officevan. And so it ended up that 5 years ago, those men arestill in Glasgow. But next to that narrative, you've alsogot the narrative of people protestingoutside asylum hotels that are being used for people seekingasylum. And so it's kind of the two— you can't say one is Scotland andone isn't because the two examplescoexist. And I think often when there's tension, you get thatfight or flight or maybe freeze kind of, um,reactions. And there's bits about understanding wherepeople are with identity that I think sometimes space isn'tcreated for that conversation. I volunteered for a number of years with
Lucy Buttersguest
an organisation called Saliha, which was set up post-9/11 aboutestablishing constructive dialogue between students in Arab countries andstudents in America. We worked with people over a semester, and it was fantasticbecause you sort of moved from arguing the positionto thinking, who were you when you started to think that? How do people around youthink? So you start to develop a sense of who this person,or who this community, is in terms of things likeidentity. And I think often that time andcuriosity isn't taken, and it creates barrierslater. You know, it's like if you don't create scenarios where you can get peopleon board, it creates problems later. And we often rush tosolve issues. And that would be, if we're talking about leaders, I often hear aboutleaders and they rush to solve without sometimesthinking, well, how can I empower this group here? Think aboutthat.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You, you touched on a couple of times around the first, uh,capability is, is, is the drive. You've gotta wanna find out, you've gottawant to be more culturallyintelligent. You gotta be, have that self-will. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta want to dosomething. I can speak from my own experience that, you know, going back in mylife 15 years ago, I didn't care. I, I, I didn't think I had to, I didn't needto. It's only when you, something happens to you in your life with you're getting older,your eyesight fails, you can't hear as well, you're stiffer, you can't walk as quick,you need an escalator. And then you develop other marginalisedcharacteristics, whatever they may be, then you start to realise and appreciate that you needto find out more. And I started working with some charities around, um,deafness and hard of— being hard of hearing and hearingloops. And I spent a lot of time just finding out about the different dimensionsto being deaf and hard of hearing. And I just thought, well, everyone lip reads or signwrites and you got this, And it turns out this is amultifaceted characteristic. And at that point there was, I think, was my firstventure into the drive to find out more about a different community, a differentculture, the deaf community. And if you've never come across that, that, thatthing that sparks you, you're always just going to keep walking on by. That's, that's where we are really, isn'tit? To get the CQ into people's heads as something that is Actually,it benefits me as well.
Lucy Buttersguest
I think it's definitely something needed. I had been working with theBritish Council, soft diplomacy, and it really changedmy focus out to the world. So when I first did— when I set up my ownbusiness in 2010, I was very clear I still wanted that kind of internationalpossibility as part of that. So I thought my CQ drive would be reallyhigh. Certainly my highestcapability. When I first did an assessment in 2013, it wasokay, but it wasn't all that, and it wasn't my highest capability,and it really made me pause andreflect and think about, you know, dunnae, diversity whenit's kind of like me. And I think that's quite an uncomfortablequestion. So things like, for example, politics was a space I wasn't comfortablein. I'm now much more comfortable in that
Lucy Buttersguest
space. Like you talking about hearing and the personalexperience, absolutely. And as we go through life, so, you know, I had a week where Ifound out I was expecting triplets, and when I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis,and you definitely— and 20 years ago now— you definitely discover through lots ofthat things that, you know, trying to get about the physicalenvironment with that with 3 babies, you realise that nothingis made for you. And people who park up on pavements, for example, yourealise that's really unkind for all sorts of differentpeople. So it kind of— absolutely personal experienceshifts focus and makes you realize— I was at a—the Citizens Theatre in Glasgow has been reopenedrecently. It's meant to be for everyone, you know, totallyaccessible. But I went in and the onlystaircase in this theatre space was up the middle with nohandrails. So I don't really have very good depth perception, I don't have very goodbalance. The idea of going down, let alone up, astaircase with no handrail— and I was like, you know, they think they're accessible but they've gotspaces if you're a wheelchair user and then andthen be able-bodied, please. Nothing in between. And I thought, who exactly, as you were saying, who havethey spoken to?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. And that, that's one of the— I think I discovered a shortfall in theEquality Act is that to be classed as a disabled or adisability, it has to be something that is perceived over more than oneyear. So for anybody who's like my wife, just had a total knee replacement,or, and we've had some surgery and are— or got a family member who's going throughsome cancer treatment. These are temporary disabilities and you're not entitled todisabled badges or parking or certain other benefits andthings. So sometimes the laws we have are verybinary and absolute. You either qualify or you don't qualify. Yet you stillexperience, although it may necessarily on a long-term, but maybe a temporary basis,the same impact as someone who suffers it long-term. So we, we've gotta be careful here that we're not designing systems just for thelaw. Design systems to, yeah, the equity to enable people tosucceed. And I think that cultural intelligence aspect to understand how itimpacts people who are— have that characteristic, albeittemporary.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, MS, it's temporary, often,symptoms. So it never comes under that, anything that I've had comes up, butsometimes even walking is quite problematic, but there's nothing withinthat. So as you say, and I think generally things aremessy, but the law is binary,you know, so we look to the law sometimes, but actually for organizations, they needto think about in this more messy situation wherewe want people to contribute well because we want to achieve whatever it isthat we are trying to achieve, how do we design things well inthis? For this context, for this group of peoplein our policies and procedures, which can'tupend the law, but they can add nuance intoit.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Hmm. So, when we talk about cultural intelligence, I, I always think one of the biggest mistakes is, is the word culturebecause people latch on to that meaning someone's faith,someone's race, someone's ethnicity, those kind of sort of things we associate with beingculture. And I, I just touched on, you know, the deaf community and the culture ofdeafness. Us. So we, we often think culture is just these, yeah, it's, it's someoneelse's music, someone else's dress codes, but cultural intelligence is actually aroundthe culture of menopause, the culture of feminism, the culture of wherever it maybe. There's a whole load of little micro cultures that thecultural intelligence also allows you to use the same capabilities to explore those aswell, doesn't it?
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. And one of the things I often start with people iseven thinking about what they mean by the wordculture. You know, that's often a— and always so manyquestions, and typically everybody's got a different word that they would maybe useto describe it. And so instantly you see how complex itis. And so for me, cultural intelligence is around navigating thatcomplexity. And I think as soon as we get into groups,we start creating culture. You know, who gets heardhere? Do we joke? Do we snack? You know, all these tiny little differentdetails that if we keep meeting or keep communicating inwhatever networks we've set up, we create a kind ofculture. So in every place, as you say, there's lots ofsubcultures. And in organizations, you know, that could be— I rememberreading something about how we learn. I think it was a— Kolb was one of theauthors. And it was, you know, the most important thing— they were looking atpostgraduates, people doing a second degree, and the most important thing and whatpeople like, why people like the approach you did, was about their firstdegree. So how we've learned to think about things more so thannationality, age, gender, you know, these different things that, as you say,we often instantly jump to when we're thinking aboutCulture.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. Uh, and I think that can be seen as a bit of a turnoff and it's just tryingto think about what's my culture as a whiteperson? Are white people allowed to haveculture?
Lucy Buttersguest
Everybody, everybody has culture, Joe. It's all— it's—yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
But, but we look at some of the nationalisms going on, you know, being Scottish, you're allowed tobe nationalistic. You're allowed to have the saltire, you're allowed to have theSt. Andrew's flag everywhere. You're allowed to be proudlyScottish. I think there's always been a stigma about being overly proud to beEnglish. And you know, you could be Welsh, you could be Scottish, you could be Irish, but English is just seen as theoppressor and you should never be proud to be English. And I think that's what's come out of some of the, therhetoric coming out of some, some circles at the moment is why can't we fly the Englishflag whenever we feel like it? We can fly the Ukrainian flag, we can fly the Palestinianflag. Why can't we fly the English flag or St. George's Crossoccasionally? And I think sometimes the Britishnation, if nations have, have been split and the English have had a, a,a poor rap on, on, on having it, you know, to benationalistic.
Lucy Buttersguest
And what would you like to see?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'm proudly British. I don't class myself English. I wasn't born in thiscountry. So yeah, I, I don't, uh, I, I don't, I'm not, even though I've lived in England forall my, all of my life, except for when I worked in Scotland for a while. Um, I'm just curious, you know, it's—maybe this is where we're disenfranchising people, where people see that they can do this, but why can'twe?
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah. And I'm unclear, 'cause I'm, I'mmarried to an Englishman and it's kind of, um, and his familywho I would see a lot of the Scottish sensibilitiesof Scotland to England, but I see them against France and Germany, you know, it's the samething. And I think there is something about power, but there's something aboutunravelling that and thinking, what do you want tobe? How do you want to be seen? How— what do you want this to—how do you want this to be seen? Because sometimes, although you're saying it's okay forflags to be used, now I live in Glasgow, if you look at our main football teams, youwill never see a saltire, or rarely see it. So it's kind of—it's much more complex than, I'll just say this about Scotland, or I'll justsay this England, and that's what I mean, there's a complexity inthere. So how do we open up these conversations and make it—different things okay? And what I hear you saying is about the disenfranchising,who's been disenfranchised, and I think that'simportant. And I also think it's important to thinkat the moment there's a lot of that being used in a power way to shutdown the conversations. You're not accepting my voice, therefore—but actually that's being shouted. So it's, it's, as I say, it's just alwayscomplex, and I'm always curious. I wrote a post on LinkedIn the otherday. I'd been on the train, and there was two women sitting opposite me immersedin books, which is quite rare in itself to see people with books out on thetrain. One was reading a book called Feminist City, and the other was reading abook called The New Age of Sexism, Ithink. Neither which I was read, but I just thought, you know, that's two young womeninterested in their context and reading about something likethat. And I've got me thinking about, you know, young women. There's much more young womenmoving to the left than there are men moving to the right, but we don't hearit. So who's setting the agenda, you know, that, that powerpiece? And I think that's always useful to havein your thinking also.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, I think, isn't it a sort of traditionally you move to the right as you getolder? Um,allegedly.
Lucy Buttersguest
Allegedly. And I, again, I would say anything that's about a whole group, thatit doesn't count to everyone in the group. That, that, that would be how I would respond toeverything.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
You can't generalize. You can't generalize. No.
Lucy Buttersguest
It's about percentages. Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. You're just making stuff up to justify your claim if you're not careful, aren'tyou? Come up with the statistic. But yeah, it's— I think we got— we do have to recognisethat everyone, everyone is unique and we have different affinitygroups. We have different subcultures, bigcultures. And if we don't take the time to find out about those differentdrivers in people's lives or what they need, then either we'llbecome disenfranchised or we'll disenfranchise them or we won't speak tothem. And that's what I think what's happening is where this anti-DEI or the anti-wokenesspushback is that people have felt disenfranchised by the needto include people. That some people are saying, well, hang on a minute, you're not including me in theseconversations. You're telling me as a white man, I, I'm theproblem. I'm— as a, a white person, I should bemore, more, more sorry for the atrocities ofslavery.
Lucy Buttersguest
And I would say it's never about theidentity. And as soon as we start saying it this identitygroup. It's about behaviors. What behaviours are weusing? And I think most people will come in and say— and this is a key thing forleadership— it's about what behaviours are you tolerating,or are you modeling, or are you valuing when you seeanother? So you're trying to encourage thatbehavior. And I think we can get lost inconversations that are about identity when what would be reallyuseful is sometimes thinking, but actually it's not just aboutyou understanding me and me understanding you. It's about what are we trying to dohere? What behaviours will help us?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That, that's a really good point. You can, you can manage behaviors, but you can't manageor police people's identities.
Lucy Buttersguest
100%.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And if people, if you set a behavioural expectation and people are meeting thatexpectation, That's all you can do. Um, if, if it's just a discomfort,if it's just a kind of, oh, I don't like that, that's not a valid, a valid reasonto deny somebody or exclude somebody. It has to be a behaviour that you can quantifytangibly and manage.
Lucy Buttersguest
And also often that bit about not liking something and feeling thatrub, it's— that's the growth space. You know, it's also what'sthe potential in that of leaning into that and seeing where it takesyou. And I think sometimes Sometimes we forget about that as well in lots of conversations aboutinclusion. It's about— there's an awful lot of talk that's about understand that personand respond to them. When you're in a group situation, I'm aware as atrainer, you know, I can't respond to everyindividual. I can never be everything for everyone at the sametime. It's not possible. What we can do as a group is agree behavioursand And, you know, think about that and think about our purposein the group.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Mm. Well, going back to the four capabilities, I, I always think that, butthe third one is, is really, really important. The, uh, the strategyelement. I was, I would refer to it, yeah, a little knowledge, you becomearmed and dangerous. You think you know a lot about a topic and you then go flying off into thedistance to say, you, you jump straight into action. Without actually sitting with strategy for awhile. And then that's where you, you kind of contextualise it, you, you test drive it,you, you pick it apart, you become really, really knowledgeable with lived experience, things likethat. And a lot of people just jump straight into action, and that's where the, the language falls over,or they upset people. They haven't got the tools in the toolkit to recover that situation then, havethey?
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. I feel that you should read my book. I think that you've almost been like a sub-editoron it or something. Absolutely. You know, interviewing the people around the world, as Idid, you know, that bit about the strategy. People were saying, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, if Ihear an idea, I just want to get on with it, or the context around me isn'tvery long-term focused, it's about do, do, do, do,do. And many of us will have been in situations likethat. But you're absolutely right, if you ask people when they've taken the time justto sit with their knowledge a little and Think, okay,how will I impact in a more positive way withthis group? And even having that thought and thinking about it,super useful. And then having the awareness afterwards to think,how did it go? And what could I havechanged? And all these different things. What could I dodifferently?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That constant feedback loop in your head, isn't it? It's almost like— yeah, I do a lot oftraining on, on challenging conversations. One of the things is you, you're always trying to start with the end inmind. You want a positive outcome, whatever that may be. So if you're always in the conversation or inyour head saying, I want this to be a positive experience, I want this to come out in a positive way,I want this to— if I get it wrong, how do I put my— put, you know, Ithink about it as playing a scaletrix. Remember, if you squeeze the trigger too hard, the car goes flying off on thecorners.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So you gotta, you gotta try and somehow try and find the right position on thetrigger. The, the car goes all the way around the track. It doesn't go the fastest, but it goessteady. And it's trying to find that way of, of that feedbackloop. If it keeps flying off in the corner, how do I correct? How do I goback? How do I— where's my plan B or plan C or planZ?
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
And that's that knowledge and the strategy coming together though, isn'tit?
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. And I think, and also the motivation when you're saying, I want theoutcome to be a positive one, you know, you're seeing the whole The wholeCQ in action there, I think how you describe that, and I often thinkCQ is a development tool, but it's also a planning tool, and difficultconversations can be one of them. You know, that bit about what doesbetter look like? What's our motivation here? What do weknow? And then that strategy piece, what do we notknow? Who we've not spoken to? You know, all these— what are my assumptions andhow are they coming through? And what will we agree to do? And a bit like you were saying, that bitabout coming back to better, conversations never followa plan. However, if you've got it in your head, you can kind ofkeep looking— looping back to it so that you can get to a morepositive place. And I've used CQ inthat way also, where there'sconflict. I've found a usefulframework.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's, it's alert behavior, EQ, CQ, alert behaviors, aren'tthey? There is a cognitive load and it's, it's an uncomfortableload when you first start thinking about it, but the more, you know, the brain's plastic, the brain'sgoing to adapt. If you keep giving it these pathways, it becomes morenatural. I keep talking about the word subroutine because, you know, my IT background,I know that I've got a subroutine that I can just branch into diplomatic, my, mycognitive awareness, my conscious inclusion, my you matter to mesubroutine. And I've got all these different things firing off, but I have to have—I've built those, those routines in my head to know how to navigatethis. Whereas I'd say 20 years ago, 15 years ago, I just had one plan and that was myplan without thinking about others.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So you have to build these pathways.
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. It's like a muscle, you know, it's kind of Andhabit. Um, the research suggests when we build habit, it getseasier. You know, it's kind of— so there's research about, yes,people are going to have bias, et cetera, etcetera. But if we build in the habit of beingintentionally thinking about it, that becomes our habit. We build that muscle, andthat's very doable. That'sdoable. And I think that's a really optimistic and hopefulmessage in terms of where we at, at the moment where I think there'sa lot of negativity. And I think this bit is, we can behopeful. We have capability. We can buildit.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
The other thing we need to be mindful of is we don't need to be right, dowe? A lot of people want to be right.Mm-hmm.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah. And, and we— that bit about, um, we're taught tobe right, we're, we're valued for being right. If you think about schooling and handsup, you know, and who's right and who's wrong. And if you look at news, there's alwaystwo sides, and it's— in the UK, it's kind of like there's two sides to astory. And we talked about the law being binary, you know, this kind of rightand wrong. But really, it's, as you say, we, we can'tbe right all the time, and things are often much messier than right orwrong. So we've got to have the capability tooperate well in that space.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I've been married nearly 40 years, 39 years this, thisyear. I've said to people, you can't be right andhappy. You certainly can't be, you can't be right and bemarried. It's not about saying it's about compromise where everyoneloses. It's about trying to find a pathway where everybody feelsthey've been respected, listened to, cared about. Their thoughts are, are beinginvestigated, considered. And you, you don't have to have your opinion all thetime, but you have to feel that at least you contributed. And that's the belongingness, isn'tit? Contributing to the overall goal. You care about me, you listen to me,my voice matters, even though I'm not always the, the chosenvoice.
Lucy Buttersguest
Yeah, I love that. And I see that in my relationship with my husband, but I, I thinkabout my dad as well. My dad was a minister of the Church of Scotland, a religiousminister. And I am not religious, you know, and so I know thatI must have hurt him with that, that, that's not a comfortable thing for him,and I loved him entirely. And, but you can hurt the peopleyou love and it still be okay. You know, my dad was proud ofme. We had a wonderful relationship. So absolutely,it's, um, I, I love what you've just said and shared.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
My mum is quite religious. She goes to, the church is, is a fairly big part of herlife. She goes to classes and, something calledAlpha. I dunno if that's a universal thing, but she does a lot ofthat. And she, she's, she's never, she's never overtly religious, but she has,she's got a deep faith. And she said something, it wasn't to me, she said something to my wife the other day that she sees alot of Christianity in me recently. And I, and I thought when she said that, I thought, what do you meanthere? What do you mean is she sees a lot of good person in me that she never saw before,and she's equated that to, to the word Christianity. I don't equate it toChristianity. I just think about it being a decent human being who cares aboutothers. Which should be the basis of most religions in theworld. But we often get confused and, and start a war because we want our, ourdeity to be more powerful than your deity or whatever it may be. Soit, it's, it's, I think most of us wanna get up in the morning and be good people, don'twe?
Lucy Buttersguest
I think so. I think so. And I think you just came back to that bitabout, um, being right or wrong, my deity, you know, that, That's myway of thinking. And if we could explore that a bit, like going back,explore that in terms of, well, we all have different ways of thinking because we've allhad different things that we've learned and differentexperiences, and that's shaped each of us, youknow. Even if it looks from the outside that we might think the same,if we got down into deeper conf— there, there'd be areas where we'remassively different, you know, with people that you group together. It's just It's just how itis. So I think just accepting that, and I think from yourmum, that would have been a compliment.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It was. I took it, I took it as a massive compliment and it made me, what it made me realise actually, my mumhas actually said to me that I've, I've changed her outlook considerably since my gendertransition. And she was, one might say, as a Daily Mailreading, GB News watcher, she, she was not necessarily the most left-leaning person outthere. So yeah. You know, and I've introduced her to a, a broaderperspective on life that she never had before. And she's— I've, I've caused her toquestion what she believes and, and thinks and, and sees the world differently and maybe doesn'tshoot from the hip as often as she used to. And, and for someone who, whopurports to be a person of faith, she was maybe a bit tooquick to be polarized. And so I think, I think I've, I've helped to see a broaderperspective. I was chatting to somebody the other week and they introduced me to my new favourite word, which I'd never comeacross in the past. Are you aware of this? The word is— word of the centuryfor me is equanimity.
Lucy Buttersguest
And is that about balance? Am I understanding that word?
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah, it's so, it's so I always keep it on the screen so I rememberit. And it's the ability to stay calm, balanced, and composed, especially indifficult, stressful, or emotionally charged situations. I always think bit, to be able to hold spacefor two opposing views without feelingyou can't cope with that. You know, that paradox is there, you know, your rights, my rights, whatever it maybe. You can sit back and go, I can live in this space with thisconfusion. I can live in this space with this conflict. I can maintain my calmand composure and we, I can talk about this and it's— being able to sit with discomfort in thesechallenging conversations, I think, is a fantastic word. And I, I realised that itshould be the heart of all of our, our being, if you like, you know, when we're trying to build equityand systems and cultures and values and belonging and all this kind of stuff wetalked about.
Lucy Buttersguest
And may I ask, cause I'm listening and I'm nodding ahead and the little question that's goingin my head is the question of, do you believe you should fight for what you believein? Cause that's different from holdingspace.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
That reminds me of the, uh, Saturday morning TV, the fight, feel There was a song,wasn't there? It's an old black and white Spanish dub.
Lucy Buttersguest
Fight for your right to party.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
It's that song. It's like, do I— should you have to fight for your right? It depends who you're fighting becauseyou've got to start the perspective that the other person believes that they'reright. They believe that they have their right to party. They have their right to be, to beright. And by going in believing you have, you have to fight for your rightimplies that almost sets yourself up to have abattle. And so I, I would always go into those situations by trying to figureout what the other person's perspective is first. You know, what was yourwhy? Why do you believe that? What's— what, what is your grounding pointhere that you're trying to get across to me or defend against me? And at that point there,I often talk about avoiding talking about outcomesand talking about perspectives because we can understand why someone believessomething. We don't have to agree. We'd have to agree with theoutcome. Come, but I can understand why your lived experience saysyou believe something, and that could be your upbringing, as you say, you know, the part of Scotland yougrew up in, your religious faith, the family,or an event that happened when you were little. All these things dictate how youcan turn out and how you, you know, why you might want to vote for this particular politicalparty. I can understand why, and I appreciate this is your, this is your podcast, not mine, But Ialways use the example of Novak Djokovic. Do you remember when he was barred from enteringAustralia?
Lucy Buttersguest
Oh yes. Because he hadn't taken the COVID injection, the COVIDvaccine.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Yeah. So I, I'm a, I'm a pro-vax person, you know, as far as I'm concerned, roll my sleeve up and stick it inme and, uh, and whatever it may be. And I was determined to notlike Djokovic over this. You know, as far as I'm concerned, he, he is a rolemodel. He was setting an example to people. And so I was determined I was likehim. I saw him on an interview with BBC News and he, the first things he saidwas when they, when they questioned about it, he said, well, I, I deserve and have the right to have agency over my ownbody. And I thought, poof, that, that floored me because yeah,absolutely, absolutely. I would fight for my right to have agency over my ownbody. Yeah, tick. Agree. I agree withyou. I agree with you. And then he took accountability. And said,if that, if that means I, I cannot enter Australia, I cannot compete in the tennis tournament,so be it. I will leave. I thought, wow. So he's, he's got a principle,which is agency, and he's willing to be accountable for it and do what is rightin the, in, in the circumstance. I thought, what do I thought? This guy is sogrounded. Yeah. And I, I don't agree with not being vaccinated. I don't agree with what he did, Buteverything he's done and the why he's done it, I can't fault. So I can hold that space and,and disagree with him in what he did, but not why he didit. I agree why he did it. I actually agree that he had the right to dothat.
Lucy Buttersguest
Absolutely. And that's all the time. Usually we have, you know, we, we can makechoices about whether we follow the law or not. For example, that's what democraticprotest, or even if you're in a, you know, non-democratic protest,but you know, so we have But there is that bit about accountability andholding space. It's so important for my work, you know, that not takingjudgement in. And as you just said in that storey about responding to theDjokovic interview, being prepared to hear andthink, all right, okay, I wouldn't have done that. However, I can see where you're comingfrom. And I think that's such an important part of developing othersand working with others.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
Lucy, it's been absolutely fascinating. We've been yakking off for best part of an hour and a half, including ourlittle, uh, our little sojourn in the green room. We were talking, you know, it's ashame we don't live closer cuz I'd love to just meet for a coffee somewhere. We, I'm sure we could spend hours together just yakkingabout this. How can people get hold of you? And I wanna find out more about yourbook.
Lucy Buttersguest
So people can get hold of me atlucybutters.com. That's the easiestplace. Or you can search me down on LinkedIn,Lucy Butters. The book is Cultural Intelligence inPractice. It's available online. Most re— book retailers in theUK are Barnes Noble, in the States, but Amazonand other places. Please get in touch if you can't find it, if you're in one of those placesthat Amazon does not reach. And the book is really talking topeople who develop others. How do we inspireothers? How do we build our Cultural intelligence when we're working with other people, how tobe— keep that intentionality that we spoke to, whilst alsoinspiring others to develop theirs, because it contributes somuch to inclusion and effectiveorganizations.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
So for leaders, people leading themselves, manage themselves in the workplace, oreven you're curious about being curious, it's a, it's a great place tostart. Will it be available on Audible as well?
Lucy Buttersguest
I hope eventually, it's not at themoment. So come back to me on thatone.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
I'm an Audible person. I, when I go for a dog walk, I, I, I fire up a— soI don't do podcasts so much, but I do Audible books and, uh,yeah. So, but yeah, so I'll, I may justinvest. I may invest in the meantime. So I'll put the link in, in the shownotes. Thank you. And if you're curious, when does it publish?
Lucy Buttersguest
It was published in November last year,2022.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
November last year. Yeah, excellent. So please do cheque out Lucy'sLinkedIn, cheque out the book, links in, in the shownotes. Lucy, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you. I've really enjoyedthis. And, uh, no doubt when we, when I press stop, we'll have a quick word and aquick natter anyway. So thank you so much.
Lucy Buttersguest
I look forward to that coffee sometimetoo. Absolutely. Thankyou.
Joanne Lockwoodhost
As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepestgratitude to you you, our listener, for lending your ear and heartto the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck achord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of ourever-growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family,and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices thatmatter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share, I'm allears. Reach out to [email protected]and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is JoanneLockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives thatchallenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusiveworld, one episode at a time. Catch you on the nextbite.
The Foundations of Cultural Intelligence: More Than a BuzzwordUnpacking the Four Capabilities of CQ: The Architecture of InclusionNavigating the Complexity of Culture: Moving Beyond StereotypesPower, Privilege, and the Pitfalls of Binary ThinkingLeadership, Belonging, and Behaviours: The ‘How’ of Lasting ChangeEquanimity, Curiosity, and the Courage to Hold Opposing Views
In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Lucy Butters to explore the nuanced art of leading with cultural intelligence. Together, they unpick how genuine inclusion requires far more than surface-level policies or token gestures. The dialogue underscores the importance of intentionality, self-awareness, and the motivation to bridge cultural differences. Joanne reflects on the lessons learnt from her own evolving understanding of inclusion, while Lucy articulates how cultural intelligence operates as an ongoing developmental tool, equipping individuals and organisations to navigate complexity, challenge assumptions, and foster authentic belonging.
Lucy is the founder of Elembee Ltd, an author, and one of only ten Master Cultural Intelligence Facilitators worldwide. Her extensive career spans over a decade of supporting higher education, global business, and community-building, with a particular focus on inclusive leadership and strengthening intercultural competence. Lucy’s superpower lies in her ability to connect networks and nurture communities, always seeking to bring people together with clarity and empathy. Her book, Cultural Intelligence in Practice, is designed to inspire others to actively build their own capability, driving inclusive cultures and positive collaboration in a diverse world.
Joanne and Lucy examine the four capabilities of cultural intelligence—drive, knowledge, strategy, and action—discussing how they must be consciously cultivated to avoid defaulting to comfortable biases. They challenge binary concepts of identity, delve into the complexity of micro-cultures, and argue that being inclusive is never a passive state but a continuous, intentional process. Through vivid anecdotes and practical reflections, they urge leaders to design systems for people, not just compliance, and highlight the value of holding space for multiple perspectives in difficult conversations.
“I wouldn't have done that. However, I can see where you're coming from. And I think that's such an important part of developing others and working with others.”
The four core capabilities of cultural intelligence and how they enhance individual and organisational effectiveness.
Why intentional motivation and self-awareness are essential for meaningful inclusion—not just theoretical knowledge.
The crucial distinction between managing behaviours and attempting to police personal identities within diverse settings.
How leaders can avoid instinctive ‘quick fixes’ and instead create space for complex dialogue and curiosity.
The value of considering temporary and invisible disabilities when designing accessible environments and equitable systems.
Why context, habit, and feedback loops form the backbone of sustained cultural intelligence in fast-changing workplaces.
Techniques for holding space for differing perspectives, navigating discomfort, and fostering a sense of belonging even amidst disagreement.
One thing to remember
Leading with cultural intelligence means intentionally developing the capabilities to navigate, connect, and collaborate across diverse and complex cultural landscapes. This is not about a tick-box approach to inclusion, but rather a conscious, ongoing commitment to understanding ourselves, others, and the behaviours that drive truly effective, equitable organisations and communities.
Questions this episode helps answer
Ever wondered why the brightest minds still fall flat when people clash?
“Who gets heard here?
Tired of ‘inclusion’ feeling like lip service—while nothing actually changes?
Think culture is all about dress codes and nationalities?
Why do some leaders inspire trust, even across the toughest divides—while others just stir resentment?
Explore topics
Ideas from this episode
The Foundations of Cultural Intelligence: More Than a Buzzword
Cultural intelligence is not simply the latest management catchphrase—it’s the backbone of effective collaboration in our globalised, multifaceted world. As Lucy Butters and I discussed, its origins are rooted in academic research from the turn of the millennium, with Lucy Butters tracing its lineage all the way back to Professor Soon Ang’s work in Singapore 00:03:46.
Unpacking the Four Capabilities of CQ: The Architecture of Inclusion
Our conversation quickly zeroed in on the four core CQ capabilities—drive, knowledge, strategy, and action—that fuel inclusive leadership 00:07:33. These are not mere abstractions.
Navigating the Complexity of Culture: Moving Beyond Stereotypes
The very word “culture” can be a stumbling block. Too often, we immediately equate it with ethnicity, nationality, or faith, yet the truth is much richer.
Power, Privilege, and the Pitfalls of Binary Thinking
One of the more provocative strands of our discussion centred on power dynamics, privilege, and the ways both legal frameworks and societal narratives can inadvertently create new forms of exclusion 00:15:31. The law is binary—either you qualify, or you don’t.
Leadership, Belonging, and Behaviours: The ‘How’ of Lasting Change
For sustainable, thriving cultures, leadership must transcend surface-level commitments to equality or diversity. The real work is in setting expectations around behaviour, consistently modelling and rewarding the values we espouse, and providing spaces for honest feedback 00:32:33.
Equanimity, Curiosity, and the Courage to Hold Opposing Views
Perhaps the biggest challenge in cultural intelligence is not acquiring more knowledge, but cultivating equanimity—the capacity to sit with discomfort, to hold competing perspectives without collapsing into either certainty or cynicism 00:43:46. I found myself drawn to the term “equanimity,” marvelling at how it encapsulates the kind of balanced, open curiosity that’s essential for conflict resolution and deep inclusion.
Learn
Frequently asked questions
What is cultural intelligence (CQ)?
Cultural intelligence (CQ) refers to the capability to function effectively in culturally diverse settings. The term is underpinned by over two decades of research and is rooted in intelligence theory, building upon concepts such as IQ (Intelligence Quotient) and EQ (Emotional Intelligence). CQ is composed of four key capabilities: motivation (drive), knowledge, strategy, and action/behaviour.
How did the concept of cultural intelligence originate?
The foundational research began in 2000 with Professor Soon Ang in Singapore, who observed that bringing together the brightest minds from around the world did not automatically result in high-performing teams. She sought to understand the underlying factors of effective cross-cultural collaboration. This prompted the development of the construct of cultural intelligence, identifying the elements enabling individuals and organisations to thrive in diverse settings.
What are the four capabilities of cultural intelligence?
1. Drive (Motivation): The genuine interest and willingness to engage and be effective across cultural contexts.
Is cultural intelligence only about nationality, ethnicity, or faith?
No. Culture encompasses far more than nationality or ethnicity. Cultural intelligence aids in navigating complexity across all forms of group identity, including micro-cultures, workplace cultures, gender, hearing communities, and even issues such as menopause or disability. Every group dynamic can generate unique cultural norms and expectations.
Why is developing cultural intelligence important for leaders?
Culturally intelligent leaders are better equipped to foster inclusive environments where everyone can contribute and thrive. CQ enables leaders to create systems, policies, and cultures that account for, and respond to, diverse needs. Rather than defaulting to rigid practices or unconscious biases, culturally intelligent leaders exercise intentionality, self-awareness, and effective behaviour management.
What is the greatest challenge in applying cultural intelligence?
One major challenge is changing behaviour—moving from knowledge and good intentions to actual behavioural adaptation. Many people revert to their comfort zones or default patterns when faced with difference or discomfort. Sustained behavioural change requires conscious effort, feedback, and habit formation.
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