--- title: "Writing Belonging Into Being" episode: 216 date: 2026-07-30 guest: "Michelle Lee Steiner" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/216-writing-belonging-into-being audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-216/audio.mp3 --- # Writing Belonging Into Being In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood is joined by Michelle Steiner to explore the realities and misconceptions surrounding learning disabilities, and the nuances of building belonging through self-expression. Michelle shares the impact of encountering limiting beliefs from an early age and how societal attitudes shaped her educational journey. The conversation delves into the lived experience of dyscalculia, visual perception issues, and dexterity differences, offering practical insights into the daily adjustments and technological aids that make both professional and personal life more accessible. Joanne and Michelle unpack how evolving attitudes towards neurodiversity, especially compared to thirty years ago, are gradually transforming environments for greater inclusion. Michelle is a writer, speaker, photographer, and paraeducator based in Pennsylvania. Drawing from her own experience with a learning disability, she advocates for people with and without disabilities alike, making her journey both relatable and inspiring. Her passions for writing and photography serve not only as outlets for personal empowerment but also as platforms for raising awareness. Michelle’s commitment extends to supporting students in finding their own voices and paths, while her blog and creative projects highlight often overlooked beauty and detail in the world. Her accessible approach and candid storytelling have resulted in published articles and a visible online presence where she continues to challenge stigma and foster a culture of belonging. Throughout the episode, Joanne and Michelle reflect on the value of transparency, patience, and self-advocacy, as well as the significance of kindness and being open to difference. Together, they consider how simple workplace adjustments and a trust in lived experience can nurture environments where everyone has the opportunity to thrive. The conversation concludes with Michelle’s powerful reminder that success does not always come in the form we expect; sometimes it arrives as something even better. Listeners are encouraged to subscribe, share their stories, and connect with the Inclusion Bites community as the journey toward genuine inclusion continues. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Inclusion Bites: Spark Change - 04:43 — Defying Limits Despite Disability - 08:46 — Misunderstood Challenges Revealed - 11:57 — Tech Improvements Transform Daily Life - 15:38 — Embracing Limitations and Acceptance - 16:42 — Finding Beauty Without a Ride - 20:46 — Capturing Beauty in Daily Life - 23:41 — Writing, Learning Disabilities, and Growth - 26:43 — Early Diagnosis of Learning Disability - 30:47 — Crop Circle Driving Tale - 33:16 — Clear Communication Improves Understanding - 37:14 — Misjudging Invisible Disabilities - 40:20 — Struggling with Maths Across Subjects - 44:41 — Teaching Advocacy and Self-Reliance - 48:22 — Join the Inclusion Journey ## Key takeaways - Breaking down common misconceptions about learning disabilities and the lived realities beyond labels. - The transformative role of technology in fostering day-to-day independence and accessibility. - How patience and clear communication make a tangible difference to neurodiverse colleagues in educational and professional environments. - Navigating invisible, non-obvious disabilities and the importance of building cultures that move beyond surface-level assumptions. - Learning why self-acceptance and focusing on strengths, not deficits, can drive confidence and empowerment. - The significance of self-advocacy and encouraging young people to “find their voice” and ask for support. - Understanding that success rarely comes packaged as expected, but can yield outcomes richer than originally imagined. ## FAQs ### Who is Michelle Steiner and what is her background? Michelle Steiner is a writer, speaker, photographer, and paraeducator who openly shares her lived experience with dyscalculia, a mathematical learning disability. She uses her story and creative talents to encourage, empower, and educate others about both visible and invisible disabilities. ### What is dyscalculia and how does it affect everyday life? Dyscalculia is a specific learning disability that impairs an individual's ability to understand and manipulate numbers. For Michelle Steiner, this manifests as difficulties with reading analogue clocks, budgeting, using rulers, distinguishing left from right, hand-eye coordination, and other daily tasks that require numerical reasoning or motor dexterity. ### How does Michelle Steiner balance her challenges and strengths? Michelle Steiner embraces strategies and adaptive tools to manage her challenges, such as using digital watches instead of analogue ones and electric can or jar openers. She focuses on her strengths in writing and photography, finding empowerment by capturing details and telling stories that others might overlook. ### How has technology changed the experience of living with a learning disability? Advances in technology have been transformative, offering solutions like digital devices, dictation software, and accessible interfaces that assist with daily tasks and communication. These adaptations not only make life easier for people with disabilities but also benefit wider society—automatic doors and elevators, for example, help everyone. ### What are some misunderstandings or stereotypes about learning disabilities? Many assume individuals with learning disabilities “can’t learn” at all or that all disabilities are visible. Others mistakenly believe that with enough effort or the right teaching, anyone can “overcome” their developmental differences. Michelle Steiner highlights that believing people’s lived experiences and respecting their boundaries is crucial for true inclusion. ### How should workplaces or educational settings support individuals with unseen disabilities? Support starts with believing disclosures, providing clear instructions, and offering patience. Unhelpful responses include attempting to “fix” someone or forcing them into situations misaligned with their needs. Practical adjustments—like stating instructions directly, using accessible technology, and avoiding patronising attitudes—foster empowerment and belonging. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, You can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 216. With the title Writing Belonging into Being. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Michelle Lee Steiner. Michelle is a writer, speaker, photographer, and paraeducator who uses her lived experience of a learning disability to encourage, empower, and educate people with and without disabilities. When I asked Michelle to describe her superpower, she said that it is her writing and photography. Writing gives her a voice and photography helps her capture the details that other people often miss. Hello, Michelle. Welcome to the show. Michelle Steiner: Hey, Jo, it's great to be here today. I'm excited to have this conversation. Yes. And we were chit-chatting away just now. Joanne Lockwood: You are in the US somewhere, is that right? Yes, I Michelle Steiner: live in Pennsylvania. Yep. Wow. There's a big famous— was it Glen Miller, Pennsylvania 65,000? Right now it is, it's actually a little warmer than it's been. It was snowing before, but yeah, it is like 7:30. Yeah, it's early and it's a little bit warmer than it has been in the past couple days. So my Joanne Lockwood: geography's not very good. So you are north of New York on the East Coast, is that right? Yes, we are. We're about Michelle Steiner: 7 to 8 hours away from New York. So I believe, yeah. Is that in the car or is that in the plane? That would be in the car. In a car. In a car. We've gone there many times, but yeah, to New York City on trips and everything. So, yep. Joanne Lockwood: It's fascinating. One hidden benefit for me recording this podcast is I'm learning a whole lot more about the US geography and where things are because I have guests from all over the states and all over the world. Right. Yeah. Michelle Steiner: That's awesome. Yeah. So I know I've, I Joanne Lockwood: think I've had another guest from Pennsylvania recently and certainly New York State and Texas and Florida and California. So yeah, if you listen to this and you're from a part of the States, then yeah, I'd love to hear from you as well. Anyway, Michelle, reading through the notes and, you know, I, I, I intimated it as part of the introduction there. You're quite open about the fact you have a learning disability. And my understanding is that from a very early age, people had limiting expectations of you and almost sort of said, well, Michelle won't achieve. So tell us a bit about that. Well, I've Michelle Steiner: had a lot of people all throughout my life not thinking that I was going to accomplish a lot. I can remember even being like when I was very young in kindergarten, I was diagnosed with having a learning disability and I can just remember a lot of times, well, that was one of their first fears that I was going to develop learned helplessness. Even my early teachers are like, well, we I've got to really encourage Michelle to do things because she needs to not develop that. She needs to know what she can do. And I can realise that was not only going to be something because of my own thoughts about myself, but also what other people were going to start to think too. That also really became a big theme whenever I was in high school for what I was going to do after high school, because I knew that I wanted to go to college. I was still scared, still doubting myself, even though I was doing well in my schooling. But I had a learning support teacher who told me, "I don't think you can go to college because of your difficulties with math," and she suggested a trade school, even though nothing interested me. I thought, "Okay, I'm going to go forward," and I had to get tested for a learning disability again to get accommodations at college. And it was during that time that the psychiatrist who evaluated me— never been a— I've never been a great test taker, and he said, 'Based on these scores, you're most likely not going to go beyond community college.' I get to community college and I faced even more stigma with people limiting beliefs. I can remember when I asked for a calculator in a math class, I said, 'Oh no, we use our brains in this class.' And my advisor said, 'I think you're going to have limited job choices whenever you graduate.' She said, 'Well, with your difficulties with math, you're not going to know how much paper to use if your students do an art project. And she wasn't entirely wrong about the difficulties I was going to have, but I've had to learn it's about how I plan out for them. So sometimes I might make a mistake. Sometimes I might have to double-check something or have some, or ask somebody, hey, did I get this correct or not? But that was difficult because I thought, well, I would like to have a job someday. And that was something that really scared me.. And I can't even remember after I got my bachelor's degree, I had a psychiatrist, um, I had to go in because I'm, I'm not able to drive and I needed, we had a transportation system specifically for people with disabilities, but you had to have documentation why you couldn't drive. And I needed an updated form and they asked me on there, well, what are some things that you would like to do? And I just decided, okay, I'm going to talk about what my dream job would be. Maybe a caseworker, maybe, uh, doing things with writing and, and writing for news and preparing news briefs. Once again, I've had that limitation people put on me that based upon my testing scores, that it would be on— all this will be beyond my capabilities. And we're just going to not even put that as a recommendation for a job. And I find that really funny after I've gotten things published and I have a blog that this is what experts have told me that I could not do. I also had people who told me, well, I don't know if you're going to meet somebody with having a disability. And that was also a really hard one too, because I always thought, well, maybe I would like to get married, maybe I would like to meet somebody. And I have had people that have rejected me for having one. I can remember my ex breaking up with me saying, I think you could drive if you wanted to, and I'm tired of taking you places. And I just finally got to that point where I thought, I'm really probably not going to meet anybody. And I I did actually, I have met my husband and we've been married for 10 years and we'll celebrate 11 years this June. Wow. That's Joanne Lockwood: fascinating. You mentioned the difficulty with mathematics and the fact that you don't drive and other things. Could you just tell me what your specific developmental differences are? Michelle Steiner: Sure. I have dyscalculia, which is a math disability. I have difficulty with how numbers work. And it might be, might be different than what a lot of people might think with that. A lot of times people think dyscalculia, you must see numbers backwards, and that's not the truth. I have difficulty with how they work. Some visual things with not being able to read the face of an analogue clock. I can see the numbers, I can see the lines, but it just does not make sense to me. I also have trouble with budgeting, counting back, just, just with different things with counting. I also have difficulty with reading a ruler and I confuse my my right from my left. I also have visual perception issues, but that's in my brain, not in my eyes. So that makes like my reaction time and driving affected with that. My hand coordination isn't great. In fact, I blink every time a ball comes in my field of vision or something like that does. So gym class was a nightmare for me growing up. And I also have limited hand dexterity, and that was not diagnosed until I was an adult. And what that is, is all the light bulbs went off after that point, because before when things would fall out of my hands, people thought, well, you're clumsy. And that's not true. And the handwriting, people would kind of shame me because I had bad handwriting growing up, that I was like lazy or sloppy or careless. I even had someone say I looked like a serial killer. And it turns out that that's part of it. And it also was why I couldn't open up, use a cans and jars. I have a jar opener and I also have a can opener that's electric, not a manual one. I'm going to look at a manual one. It's like trying to operate a spaceship. And that's why I couldn't unlock my front door to our home. And that, that also inspired my first article getting published because of that. Wow. Fascinating. Are you left-handed by Joanne Lockwood: chance? Nope. Right-handed. You're right-handed. Okay. Cause I'm left-handed and I can't tell my left, my right either. And I, Yeah, I have double thinking. Someone says turn left, I go, left, is that left or is that? So it takes me 3 seconds every single time. Yeah, it's not uncommon, not knowing left and right. I'm pretty bad at any binary choices like that where it's sort of, okay, up and down's okay. Up and down for some reason, up and down, but left and right isn't. But there are other things where I go, is it this or is it that? Is it that? Yeah, Michelle Steiner: exactly. So that's not just a you thing. That's a common thing. That is, you Joanne Lockwood: know, not very— Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, exactly. I Michelle Steiner: mean, yeah, a lot of these things are common for other people too. I mean, it's 1 in 5 people are diagnosed with having a learning disability or some kind of neurodivergence. It's common. But a lot of people don't think it's common. A lot of people think, well, that's not a lot of people, or it can't be that way, especially with having an inclusive practise like design and everything. A lot of times people might shame other people to thinking, well, people are just lazy now. So that's why we have an analogue clock, or that's why we have people don't want to write in cursive. I mean, that's another really hot topic that, especially in our state, that has come up with having a law with the students have to be taught that. But I think they should be exposed to the information, taught it. But if they're not getting it, let's move on to something else. That's just my own opinion though. Exactly. Otherwise, all they're doing Joanne Lockwood: is shaming you by saying you can't. Let's sit down and say, well, what can you do then? And how can we make that work? Yeah, Michelle Steiner: exactly. Yeah. Teach it, move on if it doesn't work. Joanne Lockwood: And yeah, exactly. If you need to learn about budgeting, if you need to learn about basic, you know, putting fuel in a gas in your gas tank to know how much to put in there, you need, you need a different way of working things out. Don't you? Yeah, Michelle Steiner: exactly. I agree 100%. Does technology help? I mean, we're living in a world Joanne Lockwood: now. Which is vastly different from that you grew up. So you've got a phone in your pocket, you've got all your handbags, right? You've got AI, you've got voice recognition, you've got your Alexa, you've got your Google stuff, right? Does that make it easier? Does that make it easier? Absolutely. It has Michelle Steiner: really improved my life with technology. I can remember even in the beginnings when I learned how to type, it took me an extra— it took me a full year of typing, not just one semester, but That was the start of beginning to be able to— people could read what I wanted to say and that helped. And now we even have dictation software and I sometimes use that because sometimes my hands will— it's harder to type or I'll make more mistakes. So sometimes I might just use dictation software. And I think when we get another computer, I'm like, okay, we're going to get a Chromebook or we're going to get something that we can definitely do that. So I can— I just don't have to do that on my tablet, which I still love. But that, you know, that, that's helpful. It's helpful to have battery-operated jar of potatoes. Openers and having a can opener that's electric that I don't have to have a manual if my hands can't do it. Having raised keys, that can be helpful too, to give me a little bit more stability when I open up a door or with the key. Just all kinds of— just having all those accommodations, having a digital watch, having a Fitbit. Not only can I tell how many steps that I've gotten, but I can tell you what time it is. I don't have to go and try to look at a clock. And that way I don't have to ask people, oh, what time is it? And they can say, oh, there's a clock over there. I'm like, well, yeah, I can see there's a clock over there, but obviously if I can't tell what time it is. So I think that's helpful. But there's so much even more. And that's some of the beauty that a lot of people may not realise that in our, in the States, we have the Americans with Disabilities Act. And there's a part of that. Well, actually what the whole act is to make things accessible for people in the community that have disabilities. So when they go into a public place, you can have seating or you can have an elevator instead of using stairs. I mean, it's not a perfect one by any means and it's one of those things, but the beauty is this helps benefit everybody, everyone, not just folks who have disabilities. So you might have a door that's automatic and that might be great, especially it's great if you're in a wheelchair, but it's also nice if a mom comes in and has a stroller and she can just press the button and the door opens. Or it can be helpful if you're somebody just had, you're walking out of the store and you have a lot of bags in your hands. That's helpful. Elevators are great. I mean, a lot of times people will wonder, well, why am I using that? Because I can't use an escalator because I don't know when I get on or off. And that was an issue during COVID They didn't want to have— there was, there was a sign, and I wrote about this, that was just for people— that the elevator was just for people that had strollers or disabilities. And I'm thinking, well, I have a disability. People can't see it though. So, but everybody can use a lot of these services. And I think that that's the thing with technology. This is not just something that benefits person that is disabled, it also benefits somebody, anybody. Yeah. Are there things in Joanne Lockwood: life that frustrate you? And what do I mean by that? We all live in our own mind. We live with our own capabilities. Do you often think, I wish I could do that, or do you just accept that your life is as is? There are things you just don't do and things you do do. I think I've gotten to a point where I have accepted Michelle Steiner: that there's things I can't do and I find ways around it to be able to deal with that, to be able I'm able to live. And that really does work for me. A lot of that with the technology, like, okay, I can't read the Facebook clock. That's fine. I'll have a digital watch on. I know that I cannot do math and I'm okay with that. And all the kids know, or will find out, that I can help you with anything at work, anything at school, except for math. And I'm okay with that. And sometimes I get some reactions like, "Oh, what do you mean you can't do math? You're a teacher." And I think that brings that humility that there's just some things that people can't do. I've also found that I'm all right with it, but when I run into other people that aren't okay with that, that's where I think more of the disability happens. People are saying, well, what do you mean you can't tell your left from your right? Or why can't you do math? Or why can't you— can't somebody just teach you? Or why can't you drive? And they, they shame that, or they, they really It goes beyond just being curious and it gets to that point where it's almost like bullying or just thinking, or nice people who think, well, we can fix you. You just need to learn. We can, we can show you that way. And that leads to disappointment for that person. And it also leads to disappointment for me because somebody can't accept you for who I am. And I also found though that when I engage in activities that I love, I don't feel like I have a disability. I feel empowered. So when I'm out and I'm taking pictures and I don't have a ride to get somewhere, which is, which happens, and that's okay too. I've made my life where I live in a central location. I'm very blessed to have a husband that can take me to work and a great coworker that could take me home. And I'm able to walk places, but I get that chance to literally stop and smell the roses when I don't have a ride. And I get to take pictures of flowers and notice details that other people would miss. So I can get in there and take a picture of a flower and people say, wow, you bring out those details that I would miss. And I realise in my life that if it's one of those things that, that there's so much beauty that I would miss if I was driving in a car, I wouldn't get to take that picture of that flower. And I started to realise in my own life, there's so much beauty that I would miss with having a disability. If I did not get that chance to experience so many things that it has taught me. And also with writing and with reading, I don't feel like I have a disability when I read or I write. I feel empowered and it gives me that voice. So even though you've Joanne Lockwood: got dyscalculia, you still understand what numbers are, right? You still understand. So if I put 2 apples on the table, you, you'd know there were 2 apples, would they? Yes, I can. I have Michelle Steiner: a very, I have a basic understanding of math, but beyond a basic elementary school level, I am not. Yeah, that, that's where it pretty much ends at a very basic level. So Joanne Lockwood: if you went out and took 5 photographs and someone said, how many photographs did you take? You'd say I took 5, or would you just say, I don't know how many I just took? Well, generally I take a lot Michelle Steiner: of stuff, so I can't tell you how many I took or how many made the, made the cut for if I'm going to post something, but, um, Yeah, that might be something I would have to count unless I only took like a few that day, but mostly I take a lot more than that. Yeah. I'd have to think about it for a second. Yeah. You're Joanne Lockwood: not limited in your understanding of numbers and numeracy. You're just, as you say, beyond basic school and beyond basic counting. Yeah, exactly. You must be quite relieved that photography's moved on because, you know, I look back When I got into photography in the, when I was 7 or 8 years old, it was all manual dials and you had to set the shutter speed and the f-stops and things like that. Now you just go click, don't you? Exactly. And I did not Michelle Steiner: get into it at that point because of that complicated process. I, well, part of it, I mean, I was also a lot younger too, but now it's, it's as simple as taking, I mean, I do have a nice camera, which we use sometimes, but once again, we're getting the numbers. So when I put the memory card in, it all thinks in numbers and I'm like, this is confusing. And. I like having the digital, like with the phone. And I also like using my tablet with that because I'm able to take a picture and it fits right in my bag and I can just take one real simple and it's convenient. You just go in, you see something and you just take out your phone or that, and you, you're able to capture that image in there. So I love being able to do that. So it has changed too. And that's also making that accessible to other people, maybe even people who think I'm not a photographer. Well, just take the picture. You never know. You've got Joanne Lockwood: a fairly impressive website. Did you design that yourself or co-author it? I have a template, but that was, that's me who does Michelle Steiner: the designing and puts the pictures and the colours and writes it and maintains that. But thank you. Yeah, it's fabulous. Joanne Lockwood: You've got some lovely photographs there. I think there's a beautiful one of a yellow butterfly and a purple flower, isn't there? There's a really striking way you capture that difference in colours and the Some of the landscapes you got as well, the sunsets are quite impactful and striking, aren't they? Thank you so Michelle Steiner: much. So do you, do you go out specifically to take photographs or Joanne Lockwood: do you, uh, you just happen, happen to take a good shot when you're out? Michelle Steiner: It depends on the day or the, or the year. Sometimes my husband and I will travel to a botanical garden and I'll definitely take a lot of pictures of flowers. Right now we're having a lot of orchid shows and I love being able to do that. So sometimes we'll go to museums and it's that, that's a little more specific. I'll be a little more like, okay, I definitely have a lot out there, but sometimes I might just be out on a walk and I'll be going to the gym or I'll be going to grab a cup of coffee or running a few errands. And I might see a rose that in one of the neighbourhoods that I know is blooming, or just sometimes it's a surprise or in the summertime, we'll see a lot of butterflies and I might just capture, I'll see that butterfly and I get that chance to capture it. And sometimes it comes in unexpected places. I can remember. In the early days, I would have— I had a moth that was on our main street on the sidewalk, and I got to capture that picture of that moth. Or last summer, I was on my way to the gym and there was a beautiful moth laying on our sidewalk, so I got a chance to take a picture of that. Sometimes it might be a flower that's just growing, or somebody has some really neat decorations in their yard for, for some holidays. We don't get as much towards winter. We have pretty cold winters, but I'm looking forward to spring. I definitely love all the flowers that start to bloom and we just get to see how things change. And sometimes we'll get some winter shots too, but sometimes it's planned, but other times there's just an unexpected surprise. And I always love capturing those. In addition to you talking Joanne Lockwood: about technology just now, do you think the world is becoming more aware? I go back to when I was at school a long time ago, and probably even when you were growing up, as a young person, there was very little understanding around neurodiversity, dyslexia, dyscalculia, ASD, ADHD, all these various terms that people go— everyone knows about today. If you go on TikTok, everyone, everyone's fully aware. Go back 20, 30 years, people just weren't aware, were they? No one's fault, they just weren't. Right. People were not aware of a lot of things with that. Even when Michelle Steiner: I was diagnosed with a learning disability, it was a blanket term. Nobody said dyscalculia. No, I mean, even today it's specific learning disability, but if you have it in math, that is dyscalculia. People didn't know about that. We certainly didn't know about autism as much as we do now. I can look back on my classes growing up and I had students in learning support that didn't have learning disabilities. They had autism. I mean, just with some of the behaviours and nobody knew what really to do with that. People definitely were not as accepting of other people that had that. It was not considered to be acceptable to have that. People would tell me, oh, maybe you don't want to talk about having that. And there's that shame and that stigma. And I can remember going to my writing group and telling people I had a learning disability as a teenager. And I'm very lucky to have that group. 30, uh, 20-some years later, we still meet once a month to talk about our writing. And they told me when at the beginning, well, you should write about having a learning disability. And I was like, oh no. I don't want to talk about that. And I wrote some really bad poetry, and people didn't know a lot about things like that, and it just was not acceptable to talk about. Now it's a lot better. And furthermore, people, as they didn't know about that, there wasn't a lot of groups. I can remember every single thing about learning disabilities I read about was based upon being a white male, and they all had reading disabilities. Now with the groups on Facebook or other virtual groups that are online, I got to meet people that, that are female that have dyscalculia or male too. I mean, we, we meet a lot of people. It doesn't discriminate against anything with that. And there's people that have difficulties with math. There's people that have difficulties with, they don't drive and there's people who do. And that, that's great too. And I think it's just meeting a lot of different people with that. And our awareness is much more, a lot broadened. A lot more modern than it was years ago. Yeah. But both Joanne Lockwood: of our two children were diagnosed with dyslexia. Yeah. Late in their school career, towards the end of it. Especially our son, probably our son was a bit earlier than that. We realised that he wasn't learning his alphabet. He wasn't, his reading age was stuck a couple of years old. He wasn't engaging in that sort of way. And it took us a long while for us us as parents to realise there was, this was, this was a thing, you know, our children are what, 30 years old. This is 30 years ago. There was not the immediate support. We were left trying to find out what's going on here. The schools weren't willing to really engage. And it made us realise that we as parents weren't prepared for this. And I think today, 30 years on, or even 20 years on, 5, 10 years ago, People are, parents are much more aware and able to give their child that support now, aren't they? Exactly. And was that your Michelle Steiner: first child then? Well, our first child, our daughter, we Joanne Lockwood: didn't discover that she was, um, had a reading challenge until she was probably 14 or 15, maybe 15 or 16. Right. But our son was a lot younger. Right. He effectively triggered more awareness in us. That allowed us to really recognise what our daughter had been saying for a longer time. Right. Yeah, Michelle Steiner: because what I would say with that, I, I know with my experience, I was my parents' first child, so they didn't have a lot to base what typical development was. In fact, when I was in preschool, the parents, or excuse me, the teacher thought something was going on, but they didn't even know how to diagnose that. And they thought, Okay, well, we think she needs another year of preschool. And my parents thought, oh, she'll catch up. She, you know, she looks normal. Everything seems to be along that, those lines. And they sent me to kindergarten. And when I got to kindergarten, that's when my teacher at the very beginning was like, no, this is definitely, there's some, some things going on. We recommend her getting tested for a learning disability. And I also credit a lot of that too. That I was around so many adults that I didn't mask my behaviour like a typical kid would. I was really frustrated and I was telling people, I don't understand this at all. So I think to my credit, I think that was a big thing as well. But I know when my brother came along 13 years ago, that was on my parents' mind. When he was in preschool, they were asking the teacher, is he learning this okay? And they're like, yep, he's fine. He's really ready for kindergarten. Went to kindergarten. He was doing great with a lot of that. So I think that was always a factor that they thought about. And then when my brother had my niece, his, his daughters, they were always on that lookout of, is this, she reverses her 6 and her 9. Is, is that dyslexia? Both the girls had that. And I've explained to them, I said, that really sounds like that's a common reversal at that age. That's developmental. Ask the teacher if she thinks there's any further things going on and it hasn't been. One of my nieces is in, she's in 4th grade this year and she's doing really well with school. And then my youngest niece is in 1st grade and she's in the highest reading group. So they're, they're both, they both do not have, as far as what we can tell now, they don't have a learning disability. Joanne Lockwood: Hmm. Again, going back to my son here, one of the things that we flagged, it didn't flag, we should be looking back on it. We should have used it as a trigger was we thought he was having, his eyesight was the problem. And we took him to have his eyes tested and the optician concluded he needed glasses. And so we got these glasses because we've put all of his reading difficulties down to not being able to see properly. Yeah, exactly. What we didn't realise was that he couldn't read the letters. When they're testing his reading the letters off the board, he said, well, I don't know what they say. And they assumed that meant And he was, he ended up with these glasses that were really quite thick that you would never wear. And we would say to him, Connie, you gotta put your glasses on. And he was going, I don't want to, they're making everything blurry. It took us a real long time to realise that the glasses were just a symptom of him not being able to read the words or the letters on the optician's chart. That makes sense, Michelle Steiner: 100%, because yeah, because people would think, oh, he just needs glasses and he'll be able to figure, he didn't know what the letters were. Right. And yeah. And I always tell people, definitely, if you think something's going on like that, see if their eyes are working, see if the ears are working. And sometimes that can be another condition on top of it. But he couldn't understand that. And for me, whenever I went to the eye doctor when I was young, I could see what the letters were, but they could tell the visual perception was even off then. And they gave my parents some exercises to do, but yeah, my vision was always really good. I mean, just was just trying to— and that's what makes it so frustrating. Everybody thinks, well, you must be visually impaired. I'm like, no, I'm not visually impaired. I just have a lot of difficulty with reacting when I have that information. It's funny, like if I have a— if I'm going in a door and there's somebody that's coming out and I'm going in, my brain just freezes. Like, well, what do I do? Do I let them go first? Do I go first? And my body just can't make that connection. Or if I'm going upstairs sometimes, I mean, I can do it, but I might have to hold on because I might might just misjudge the step that's in front of me. Or if I'm going on the escalator, can't tell when the stairs are stopping or ending. So it's almost like you've got the information travelling down the highway and then Joanne Lockwood: you get a section of the highway where the road is all muddy or it's all potholed and your car sort of skids around a bit and go, hang on a minute. Yeah, exactly. That's why we don't. Michelle Steiner: Drive. And there's a funny storey with that too, with, with the driving. Whenever I was young, about driving age is 16 in the States, or most of them, some are a little bit younger, but in our state it was 16. And my mom and dad knew, they were like, oh, okay, if it's any indication with gym class, we might wanna wait a little bit to see if that matures. So we didn't go right when I was 16 to attempt to do that, but they gave me some little tests, you know, months later. One of them was that we lived out in the country and we had a field and My parents said, why don't you go mow the field? Well, instead of making long, beautiful lines on the mower, on the riding mower, I ended up making circles. So I always say that they look like crop circles. So the mystery of where crop circles come from was definitely completed and it was solved. And I also almost ran into the family garage when we decided we're going to try driving in the car to see going up the driveway. And at that point, my parents thought it's time to get in to see what's going on. And I passed every single test. On the evaluation except for visual perception. Yeah. And that's pretty. Important. Mm-hmm. True. Yeah. Oh, missed it. Yeah, that's Joanne Lockwood: right. Yeah. Yeah, I could drive fine. I just couldn't react to things happening. Yep, exactly. If it was just Michelle Steiner: me, that would be fine, but it's other people and yeah. So think about the, when you're at work or your Joanne Lockwood: workplace, How can people become more aware, more educated, more understanding of what your condition, your needs are, or people who have other similar neurodiversity? How can people engage and find out more? Because you don't want people bothering you all the time saying, please explain this, please explain that. It gets a bit boring. But how can people just make those everyday helpful interventions with you? I think I'm pretty good about explaining in the beginning Michelle Steiner: of what I need. I'm very good at that. And I think it's following through. And when a person tells you that and going through with that and believing them at their word, I mean, people can also look that up if they, if they'd like or ask questions, as long as it's respectful. But I think it's believing the person and not trying to change that. I also think that that's the big thing. If I tell you I can't do math. Please do not think that you're going to be able to teach me. Lots of people have thought before that, and that, that just has not gone in that direction. So I think it's affirming when somebody tells you and believing them. I really can't do that is a big thing. I also think it's when people give me clear directions that I understand what the expectations are is also really important. And I do very well with staff who does that. They might say, can you please do this? Or I need you, and they look me right in the eye and they tell me what what I need to do, and that helps because my brain does need to have that clear. Sometimes I may not pick up on some of the nuances that you might want, or if it's vague information, my brain may not do that. And sometimes I might have to go back and think, what do I need to do? If I'm at the copier, we, we finally do have a copier I can understand a little bit better, but I have a way of understanding what that means, and I might have to play around with things to figure out where stuff is at. So I think That's helpful too, as well. So a bit of patience, a bit Joanne Lockwood: of realising you're not going to get everything first time, but you will get it if someone's patient with you. Or there's certain things you just won't get and there's no point in just saying, well, come on, Michelle, there's no point. I can train you and train you and train you and train you. You're still going to go, doesn't work. Yeah. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. But I like it. Yeah. So you can, you can push the number of copies button on the copier and get 3 copies out. You can, you can do. Michelle Steiner: That. The double-sided, I can know where the finishing things are for staple and punching, hole punching. And actually that's really good too, because if I do that by hand, I work for employers that they wanted to have them all perfectly lined up and my visual perception would not do that. And they would get, people would get frustrated with me. So I'd love to go back and tell some of those employers there is some technology out there that, that can just perfectly straighten things on, on the copier. I mean, there's a lot that can be done now, and I think that just comes back to that technology. But yeah, it's just finding what works. I can tell if you want 3 copies, I, I can put that on there. I can put 5 copies and all of that. I could understand that part. And I think it was, I had an advisor or a disability director in college that, that asked me when I was telling him, well, I need accommodations for math. And he goes, So what's it like when you go to the store? How are you with purchasing things? I said, yeah, I can kind of get an understanding. It's never a perfect total of how much I have, but I can see the dollars and the numbers and the change. And he goes, okay, that tells me you can understand the relationship between math. I'm like, yeah, I understand the relationship. I just can't get into figuring out a very deep understanding. Yeah. If I've got $1 and Joanne Lockwood: then it costs $1.50, you know, you can't afford it. And you, if you've got $2, you know you can't afford it and you're going to get 50 cents change. So you understand the relationships. Yeah. It's just actually doing the processing. Yeah. Yep. Exactly. If you give Michelle Steiner: me a debit card or credit card, it's very abstract. So I'll end up spending more. Tap it on the machine all the time. Yeah, exactly. Can't see the relationship at that point. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: So your spatial awareness and your dexterity allow you to sort of pay for things with the. Michelle Steiner: Card. Sometimes that works. So when you are in these situations Joanne Lockwood: where people are benevolent, they're trying to help you, do you often find, do you sometimes find that people are a bit, can become a bit patronizing, a bit sort of pat you on the head or Michelle can't do this type thing? Is that a danger as well? I get, I get a mixture of this. Michelle Steiner: I'll get people that think I can't do anything. And that's not helpful because there are things I can do and I can learn. Sometimes even the term learning disability, people think, well, you must not be able to learn. Well, I can. I just have to find a way that works for me and it's going to be different. And I also have people that think I can do anything. They think, well, there's nothing wrong with you. You don't look like you're disabled. And they think you're giving yourself a compliment and there's nothing wrong with having a disability either. And also people sometimes can be really— some of the disability is becoming more aware, not aware, but people can be able to see it more. It's more visual. For example, with my hand dexterity, I have a way that I have to adapt in my life that feels normal to me, but to other people might look different. And I had this happen a few years ago when I was in the grocery store and it was a crowded store. And sometimes my husband goes in to help me or other times we might just do a pickup order, but this time I went in the store. And I'm unloading my cart and there's somebody comes up behind me in the line and I'm like, okay. And she starts unloading my cart for me. And I look at her and said, oh, thank you. And she said, yeah, I like to help people and you really look like you need help. And I was just really surprised that somebody was that, because I'm not used to, I do have people that'll ask me, this is even something that's unrelated with having a disability, but it's a physical difference. My feet turn in when I walk because of how I was positioned in the womb. So I've had people that have kind of made fun of that for years and just ask me questions about that. And, but it's one of those things that I, I mean, I'm not in any pains. And the same thing with the hands. I'm not in any pain with that, but people will ask me questions and sometimes I'm not as skilled on answering that as I am with saying, oh, okay. I'd laugh about it. I got a learning disability. Yeah, I can't do math. I'm not a mathematician. But I think sometimes comments are harder to deal with when people can see that and people tell you that and sometimes just being really stunned. So I'm guessing Joanne Lockwood: that the fact it's a hidden or non-visible or non-obvious disability apart from maybe, as you say, the way you walk or the way your hands are, just having a chat with you today, you're just like anybody else I've ever chatted with. You know, you're on the other end of a Zoom call. You're fantastic. You're funny. You've got loads of personality. Thank you. People probably don't see that hidden side of what's going on in your life. And that surprises them. Yeah. I mean, because a lot of people don't see that. And I Michelle Steiner: often say just because we can't see the disability doesn't mean it's not there. It's there. It has an impact on my life, but I found ways to be able to, to, to be able to do, be able to cope with that. And I'm fine with having that. So I think sometimes that comes as a surprise to people. So I might go in for a job interview.. And people might think, she can do this. If I don't tell them, they don't know. And I haven't— sometimes I'll disclose, sometimes I don't disclose. It just really depends on the situation. And once I get in there though, I do have to explain, okay, I need an accommodation with this. And really what I need the accommodations with are not really things that are going to cost a lot of money or they're not going to be that much of a liability for anybody. I might just say, okay, I cannot go into the only real definites that I can't do. I'm unable to lift people and I definitely can't do math. That math is the big definite one I can't do. And a lot of times people just think, okay, well, we won't put you in a math class, but it appears in other classes. They'll think, well, can you do science? So why can't you do science? Well, there's math and science. So I'm going to have to talk with whoever the instructor is. And I've had a pretty good, a really good staff that they're understanding about that. And then, you know, it'll, it'll might show up in a history class. If they're going how many miles it takes to get from this to that, or being like a, or reading a map, that's a big thing. And people think, why can't you understand longitude and latitude? I'm like, it sounds to me so, well, it's not using math. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: it is. It is. It uses numbers. I Michelle Steiner: can. And also I was, I had to help assist a student in a music class. And there is a connection between music and math, and I just do not understand that connection. So it's explaining that there. So I think sometimes it's just learning how to say things in a way that, um, that's effective, it's assertive, but it's also kind too. And I think that's a big thing too, is just sometimes having to go with things and just being able to just say, okay, I can't help. I could walk around the room in a math class. And make sure everybody's on task, or if it's a, if it's a certain class, but it's just learning that and people don't know it and that's okay too. That's where I get that way of explaining it. And it does bring education to others. And that's part of what I want to do a lot with my blog too, is to, is to bring that education to other people. It's funny Joanne Lockwood: you talk about the music though. Yeah. You don't think about music as being math because it's 8 notes. You've got beats per minute. You've got a single rest, a double rest, a crotchet, a quaver, different length notes. And so you're having to count timings and work out. So the whole thing is, is this mathematics? It is Michelle Steiner: with rhythm. Yeah. And that's why they say a lot of times students who do really well with music do great at math. Now I've known people that have said, oh no, I can play music. Like my husband plays guitar and he goes, I'm terrible at math. And I've known other people who have said the same thing, but your brain is still doing that. And for somebody that has a disability with math, that just may not always work out that way. And that's okay too. I could never Joanne Lockwood: get music. I tried learning the recorder, the yellow bag recorder at school, and they were just, they could shout and scream. I just didn't get it. I just didn't get it at all. It was like hands move, read stuff on, it was like, what? You're having a laugh. I can't, don't get it. No, I Michelle Steiner: didn't get it. Piano when we had, we had school. I can remember the teacher had other students teach us how to do it. And obviously I did not learn how to do piano and I can't remember having to do it in front of the class and having the teacher scream at me, no, no, that's not right. And I'm like, okay, dun, dun, dun. You had other, first of all, you had other students teach me. And then in college we had to learn how to play Mary Had a Little Lamb. I could do that. Yeah, I could do that. Could you? I can Joanne Lockwood: do that. Yeah, you could do that. Great. I could do that. 3 blind mice. 3 blind mice. 3 blind mice. That's about all I could do. Yeah. And luckily Michelle Steiner: the professor was pretty understanding and we didn't have to do it in front of the class. And she, she, she said, you know, you're not going to be good at everything. I'm like, that's fine by me. And we, we passed the class. That was funny. So what have you got planned for your future Joanne Lockwood: then? You obviously figured out who you are now. You figured out what works, what doesn't work for you. What's your, what's your ambition? What do you want to achieve next in life? You know, you're doing a great job. You love your photography, love your writing. Where does Michelle end up in 10 years' time? I would love to definitely expand the blog. Michelle Steiner: I would also like to write a book and I'm also in a programme where we're doing disability policy. So I would, I'm not sure what I'll do after that with that, but I would definitely love to be able to help other people and advocate for others as well. Do you find that your lived Joanne Lockwood: experience is actually inspiring younger people, maybe in your care or just around saying, well, because the biggest challenge, if you can't see somebody doing something, you never feel that you can achieve it either. So you, by being this, I hate the word role model, by being a role model though, by being someone who's visible saying Michelle can, I can, does that help? One of the things I do try to work with my students Michelle Steiner: is how to advocate because I can see, I work with 7th graders and And a lot of it brings me back to that age that I was at. And I am not at, not with every student, but a lot of them. And I can just see that for all my students, they're one day going to graduate, they're going to leave me, but for a lot of them, their disability is going to stay there. And it's so important now that I show them how to advocate for themselves because they're going to need to know how to do that. And sometimes I can go up to them, I care, and be able to make that influence in their lives. I can remember a few years ago I had a, somebody that was in a class and they were expecting me to help out with math. And I looked up to this guy and thought, why in the world am I in this class? I told him I can't do this. And somebody said, this student is crying. And I went over to him and I, I got on eye level with him. I said, I understand how frustrating math is. I struggle with that too, and I can't help you, but I want you to tell me whenever you are frustrated so I can get somebody to help you. And before I knew it, that student wasn't crying. When he had a question, he was able to raise his hand. So that's something I talk about with a lot of my kids. I will tell them, if you don't understand something, it's up to you. You need to raise your hand. You need to ask for those resources and that support. I'll go with you, but you need to be the one that speaks up for that. I also have maybe some other people that have told me, oh, I decided— I saw you wrote an article for The Mighty. I decided I'm going to write an article for them and I sent something out. So sometimes that helps. I've had other people that might've said, oh, you talked about getting help from the state office for vocational rehabilitation. I decided I'm going to call them and make an appointment and see what I can do. So I think sometimes with that, sharing my storey and sharing resources helps to encourage other people in life to be able to go out and go after what their dreams are and to be able to advocate for themselves. I think you're so right. And Joanne Lockwood: I've seen it throughout my own career, my own journey that The biggest blocker is you in your own head, isn't it? You know, I can't. And allowing someone to allow you to go past that block. They can, I can, or even if, even if it's not directly that, it's just believing that somebody can allow you. To open yourself up. Right. And finding what Michelle Steiner: works for you too. What I might do may not be your style and that's okay. As long as you're out there finding what you want to do and you're finding your way in life. I just want to be encouragement for that. The world The world needs all kinds of thinkers. It does. It does. And that's the Joanne Lockwood: important thing. So what's your one big, one big takeaway from today? From what would you always leave people with as a thought? I always leave people with that success doesn't always come in the package Michelle Steiner: that we expect. Sometimes it comes in something even better. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow. Brilliant. This has been fascinating. How can people get ahold of you? You can find me at my Michelle Steiner: blog, www.michellesmission.com, and I'm also on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn. LinkedIn as Joanne Lockwood: well. Excellent. And I'll put all those details on the, in the show notes. Thank you. It's Michelle, M-I-C-H-E-E-L-L-E, and Lee, L-E-E, and Steiner, S-T-E-I-N-E-R. Yeah. Yes. Brilliant. I'll put those in the details and hopefully if you listen to this, reach out to Michelle and maybe either share some of your own experience or I'm sure, Michelle, you'd be willing to engage and have a chat with people. So yeah, please do reach out. So Michelle, it's been absolutely fascinating. I could talk to you for hours. Thank you very much. Thank you Michelle Steiner: for having me. It's been a pleasure. As we Joanne Lockwood: bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord, consider it subscribing to Inclusion Bytes and become part of our ever-growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seachangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, This is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.