--- title: "Resilience Beyond Barriers" episode: 214 date: 2026-07-16 guest: "Misbah Gulzar" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/214-resilience-beyond-barriers audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-214/audio.mp3 --- # Resilience Beyond Barriers In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood explores the theme of resilience and identity with guest Misbah Gulzar. Against the backdrop of cultural expectations and the evolution of societal norms, Misbah shares her journey from a strict South Asian Muslim upbringing to forging her own path, both personally and professionally. Their conversation dives into the complex realities of arranged marriage, family expectations, and the arduous process of self-validation, with Joanne drawing parallels to her own experiences of seeking affirmation and acceptance. Together, they reflect on the transformation of tradition, the meaning of belonging, and the courage it takes to step beyond prescribed boundaries. Misbah is a resilience-driven inclusion advocate whose career spans nearly twenty years in the criminal justice system. Drawing deeply on her own lived experience, she has navigated significant personal and societal hurdles: leaving a traditional family environment, rejecting an arranged marriage, and building a new life as a single parent of five. Misbah is passionate about nurturing psychologically safe, inclusive workplaces, and brings a unique perspective as both a woman of faith and an ethnic minority in senior leadership. Her professional insights into rehabilitation and resettlement within prisons are underpinned by her belief in potential, empathy, and the importance of role models in systems often devoid of representation. Misbah’s advocacy is animated by her commitment to authenticity and her drive to ensure her children inherit the freedom she fought to secure. Throughout the episode, Joanne and Misbah examine the intersection of culture, gender, and societal systems—from the difficult decision to leave home and the weight of community judgement, to the challenges faced by those re-entering society after imprisonment. They highlight the power of self-determination, the need for honest reflection on cultural versus religious practices, and the critical role of resilience in the face of adversity, both at home and in the workplace. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Strict South Asian Muslim Upbringing - 03:58 — Choosing Freedom Over Tradition - 10:01 — Breaking Free from Sheltered Life - 12:09 — Struggles with Identity and Conformity - 16:37 — Navigating Culture and Religion - 18:59 — Craving Parental Validation - 21:15 — Parenting and Faith: Supportive Approach - 25:56 — Understanding Crime and Environment - 27:36 — Empowering Change Through Representation - 33:01 — Improving Prisoner Resettlement Support - 33:56 — Navigating Change After Incarceration - 38:27 — Gym Boosting Wellbeing - 43:01 — Freedom, Reinvention, and Restriction - 46:46 — Embracing Intersectional Identity - 47:45 — Resilience Through Life's Challenges - 51:01 — Striving for Personal Growth - 54:09 — Fostering Inclusion, Signing Off ## Key takeaways - The challenges and consequences of rejecting arranged marriage in traditional South Asian culture, and the effect on family dynamics. - The profound distinction between cultural norms and religious values, and how clarity in this area supports personal identity formation. - Strategies for overcoming the need for external validation and cultivating self-worth. - Building a new family culture grounded in openness, autonomy, and genuine belonging, regardless of faith or heritage. - Insights into the obstacles faced by ethnic minorities and women in senior leadership within the criminal justice system. - The critical importance of rehabilitation and resettlement support for individuals transitioning out of prison, including ongoing wraparound services. - Actionable approaches to self-care and wellbeing, such as re-engaging with fitness routines, especially during career transitions or personal challenges. ## FAQs ### What is the primary theme of this episode? The central theme is resilience amidst cultural, familial, and professional barriers, particularly within the context of inclusion and belonging. The episode spotlights how individual lived experiences shape advocacy for psychologically safe and inclusive workplaces. --- ### Who is the guest and what is her background? The guest, Misbah Gulzar, is a resilience-driven inclusion advocate with nearly 20 years’ experience in the criminal justice system. She draws upon her South Asian Muslim background and personal journey escaping cultural limitations—particularly those around arranged marriages—to champion inclusion. --- ### How did Misbah Gulzar's upbringing influence her approach to resilience and inclusion? Growing up in a strict South Asian Muslim household, Misbah Gulzar was the only sibling to attend university. She faced decisive crossroads regarding arranged marriage, ultimately choosing the path of independence despite familial and cultural repercussions. This experience profoundly shaped her resilience and advocacy for psychological safety and inclusion. --- ### What are Misbah Gulzar’s views on arranged marriages? She is not opposed to arranged marriages, provided both parties consent and there is no coercion. Her own situation, however, did not accommodate personal choice or compatibility, prompting her to leave a comfortable family environment and navigate life independently. --- ### How did leaving her family affect Misbah Gulzar and her broader community? Her decision brought considerable stigma and shame upon her family, as was customary in her community at the time. Yet, her choice marked a turning point that positively impacted subsequent generations, allowing her nieces and nephews greater freedom in choosing partners. --- ### What was Misbah Gulzar's experience in the criminal justice system? Initially entering prison service as a stopgap, Misbah Gulzar worked closely with inmates, primarily in Cat B prisons and immigration removal centres. She focused on equality and diversity, attempting to understand the backgrounds and potential of those incarcerated, while realising the critical importance of rehabilitation and acknowledging systemic barriers. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging, and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world where everyone not only belongs but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo, and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect, and inspire action together. Don't forget, You can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 214. With the title Resilience Beyond Barriers. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Misbah Gulzar. Misbah is a resilience-driven inclusion advocate with nearly 20 years' experience in the criminal justice system, navigating new beginnings while championing psychological safe and inclusive workplaces shaped by her own lived experience. When I asked Misbah to describe her superpower, she said that it is her resilience and patience inspired by her children and strengthened through overcoming personal and professional barriers. Hello, Misbah. Welcome to the show. Hi, Misbah Gulzar: Joanne. It's lovely to be here. Thank you so much. Really looking forward to the next kind of hour with you. But yeah, amazing. Pleasure. Joanne Lockwood: I always like to ask my guests whereabouts in the world they are. Misbah Gulzar: Yeah, so I am in Stoke-on-Trent, which for people that don't know is in the Midlands and is famous for its pottery. Joanne Lockwood: Yes, because if you drive through, you've got all the kilns, the pottery-shaped kilns. Yeah. Quite iconic. It is Misbah Gulzar: definitely iconic. It's an industry that obviously with, you know, the industrialisation is not something that is as evident, but there's still lots of working kilns within within the, the area. So yeah, it's amazing. Wow. You're probably, I think I said to you in the green room, you're Joanne Lockwood: probably the closest guest and we're still what, 200 miles apart, but you're probably the closest guest I've had for a long while. So yeah, it's absolutely lovely to speak to someone from the UK for a change. So you look at the notes you sent in, you talked about resilience, inclusion, and you actually said that you've got 5 children and they've inspired you and taught you a lot over your recent life. But take us back to being a young woman? How did that shape your, your belief system? So, um, I Misbah Gulzar: grew up in a quite a fairly strict South Asian Muslim household. I was one of 5 children. Um, I was the only one, uh, that was able to go to university, so that was a huge privilege. Um, I went away to university, got the necessary qualifications that I went to get. Um, Came back, and then, as with lots of South Asian communities, you know, the question of marriage arose, 'cause I was at that age. I'd obviously seen the world. I'd seen it bigger than the northern mill town that I grew up in, and I wanted to see the rest of the world, and I wanted to be part of society as a whole. So, at that point, you know, I had to make a decision in terms of, you know, there's two roads that I can travel down. I either continue on the path that I'm on and stay with my family, have the arranged marriage, be very unhappy and unsatisfied with life, or I decide to do my own journey. And obviously, whilst by doing my own journey, that would definitely mean consequences that I would have to really deal with along the way. So I did choose the latter. I did decide that actually I couldn't get— I didn't want an arranged marriage. I wasn't the type of person that could probably sustain that relationship, and that was partly due to having to, you know, have these like multiple identities, you know, trying to be somebody at home and then when you're out of home trying to be somebody else. So essentially that decision was made and I left home and kind of tried to make it for myself really. And, and that's when I had to really— I really understood what the world was and how difficult it was to navigate, how difficult it was to be on your own, how hard it was to just kind of get through the daily kind of routine of everything. Um, so that then led me to, um, you know, finding work subsequently after my degree that I completed. Um, and then, you know, I, it just kind of developed from there. So yeah, it's been, it's been quite a difficult journey and it's taught me a lot. And I think part of my resilience has come from that, you know. So yeah. Actually. Joanne Lockwood: I know very little about arranged marriages, the cultural significance from your communities and what that means in a 2026 context, if you like, maybe in a 1950s or 1960s context, but that must have been a huge, huge choice for you to step out of the family. It's almost like leaving a cult or something. You're being excommunicated, you're being shunned as being a nonconformer. And you're, I'm gonna put words in your mouth, if it sort of brought shame on your family, those type of things. So that's what you had to face. Can you go into that? Yeah, no, absolutely. So I wanna say from the outset Misbah Gulzar: that I'm an advocate for arranged marriages. I'm not against it. I think once, I think if they're done correctly, as in consent from both parties and there's no coercion or anything of that nature, I think they're amazing in terms of— and I think statistics do show that the arranged marriages tend to have a bit of a higher success rate than love marriages. So, you know, that's what I want to say from the outset. In terms of the situation that I'd been in, it was, you know, a comfortable middle-class environment, a comfortable middle-class family, and I, like you said, I had to make that decision to leave that comfortableness, leave that ease of, you know, not having to worry about anything, being protected, and kind of almost living in a shell, to actually going into the big, big wide world where I'm going to be exposed to everything that I've never really been exposed to before. And Joanne, you mentioned the cultural aspect of it as well in terms of the shame. So you've got to think back 30 years ago, this was unheard of. There were very few females that would absolutely take that step, and it was a different generation as well back then. So when you look at today's generation, there's choice, There's absolute decision-making. The coercion is a lot less, and we live in a different society, so it's not the same. But back 30, 30-odd years ago, none of that existed. So the decision that I was making had a detrimental impact upon my family in terms of how they were viewed by the community. So my dad, God rest his soul, was a very highly respected member of the community. He was very religious. He was well thought of. My whole family was actually thought well of. So doing what I did essentially created, and I left behind so much, um, kind of pain and suffering, if that makes sense, that they had to deal with on my behalf, which is difficult to kind of process, but I can imagine how hard that would've been. So they were left with having to answer the community, or, well, your, your daughter, where is she gone? Why is she not here? Why is she not married? Where's she? What's happened to her? So all these questions I imagine my family would've had to experience and go through. That I'm not particularly okay with. However, I think if I hadn't have made that decision, then I wouldn't be sitting here today with you, and I wouldn't have the amazing life and progress that I've made and all the achievements that I've made. That, that wouldn't be anything at all. It would be a completely different person sitting, sitting here right now. Forgive me if I just ask, you've got me Joanne Lockwood: curious. Had you got to the stage where prospective suitors were being lined up and you—. Misbah Gulzar: Yeah. Again, I'm trying not to put words in your mouth. Yeah. Had someone have Joanne Lockwood: been, had one of the prospective suitors been an ideal match, you may well have fallen in, but you found that they weren't suitable? Misbah Gulzar: So the matches were predominantly from Pakistan. So I, at this point, was completely westernised and I knew that I would not be able to have that communication level. Level that I wanted with that person. And of course, with that person comes his culture, comes his kind of like perception of women, all of that he brings with him. So I was essentially, you know, having to decide, am I, am I able to give all that up to an individual, to another person, to be in control of? So in terms of my siblings, they were different. So they were, in terms of their mindset, their cultural mindset, their religious mindset, was completely different to mine. Because, you know, I had had the opportunity to leave home, I had had the opportunity chance to see the world for what it was. They hadn't. They had been protected, and they didn't know any other way. So I had that opportunity. So I just wanted to make sure that, you know, and as hard as it was and as difficult it was for me to kind of refuse my parents' wishes, I absolutely knew at the bottom, you know, deep down, that I could never sustain anything like this, and it wasn't going to end well. So I was prepared to take the risk of leaving that comfortableness and making it out on my own and just taking whatever came in my way and dealing with it. I was that kind of strong in my belief. Some may say stupid, some may say, you know, you don't know what you're letting yourself in for. How can you leave what you've got essentially is a perfect kind of setup to something that's gonna be full of uncertainty? You're going to be shunned by your family, you're going to be disowned, you're not going to have a community, you're literally going to be on your own. So, you know, all of this was kind of— and at that point I was like 19, 20, Joanne, so I wasn't even fully kind of— I know females mature quicker than males in terms of their maturity levels, but you've got to understand that I'd lived a very sheltered, very protected life. So there was lots of, lots of things that were were gonna be, were gonna be difficult that I had to face. Again, Joanne Lockwood: I, I'm making some assumptions based on my own beliefs and biases. The Pakistani man would bring, as you say, their religious beliefs, their cultural beliefs, and almost treat you as property. You would, you would have less choice and freedoms. In my head, that was what my perception was Misbah Gulzar: because what I saw was my sisters and my sisters weren't badly treated or mistreated in any way, shape, or form. But I saw that the lives that they led, their lives were simplistic, they were straightforward, they, you know, and there's. Nothing wrong with Joanne Lockwood: baby machine. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, absolutely nothing wrong with that. Misbah Gulzar: But I knew that that wasn't what I wanted. I knew that that wasn't what I could kind of tolerate or accept. So for me, you know, somebody from Pakistan, you know, he's got like, he's got his own belief systems, he's got this idea or perception of women. So would that mean that if I were to have a career, he would turn around and say, actually, no, you can't work, you need to be at home, or you can't dress like that, or you can't wear makeup. And these are things, and they're quite kind of large examples, but, you know, that was what was going on in my head, thinking I'm going to lose completely all of my identity, even though my, the identity that I've got is, is confused anyway because I'm trying to be two people at the same time and it's, it's confusing. And then add another layer on top of that with somebody else coming in, and then I've got adapt to his way of thinking and his belief system. So I think that, that for me was, was too much to kind of appreciate and understand. This was, I mean, guessing from the language you're Joanne Lockwood: using, this is 20 or 30 years ago? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Misbah Gulzar: It was a long time. And like I say, traditionally, my parents weren't of the mindset of freedom in that type of way, whereas You know, you look at the parents today and there isn't that push. You can go and have a love marriage, you can go and, you know, choose your own partner. And I think one key thing that I kind of want to mention, and this isn't me coming from any place of importance or anything like that, but I think the decision that I made absolutely impacted positively on my nieces and nephews. So they didn't have to experience what I experienced. So they were able to choose freely. And now from, you know, understanding who they've married, the majority of them haven't been Pakistani people. They've been Indian or they've been from a different country. So all that pressure that was put on me, they had to be Paki— they had to be from Pakistan and nowhere else, and they had to be a certain caste, that, that didn't happen to them. And I think I know for sure that I probably was one of the reasons why I think that my sisters and my brother thought, we have to deal with this differently with our children, and we can't put them through potentially, you know, what, what I was put through. Joanne Lockwood: So as you say, you're not against arranged marriage, it's just the mechanism and the level of, I suppose, operation, you know, if you were, if your views and wishes were put into there, And you had some, can I say, buying criteria, uh, or profile criteria, then you might say, but absolutely, if you can meet this kind of aspiration for me, I'd love you to find my perfect gentleman that is aligned to who you are today, if you like. Absolutely. But Misbah Gulzar: those choices were presented to me. It was this or nothing. It was A, there wasn't a plan B or C. It was, this is the person. And the person they wanted me to get married to was a cousin from Pakistan. And I, you know, as as lovely and as nice as he might have been, he wasn't the fit for me at all. So again, can I, if you don't mind Joanne Lockwood: me asking, what is the kind of criteria? Is it, well, I suppose top of the list is available. Is age a criteria? Is there, you say their caste, where they are in society, their wealth, the family connection. Is it all around trying to bring families together and enhance the overall family structure to get the perfect person to amplify and to connect you together? Is that kind of the motivation? Yeah, no, absolutely. When, when the situation of Misbah Gulzar: arranged marriages comes up, it's primarily to look within the extended family initially, because it is all about keeping the family together. I guess, you know, you know your family better than you would know a complete stranger, because you've literally grown up with them, and you understand how they are as people. So that's a positive thing. Obviously, if that's not possible, then you do look outside of your family. But the caste, for a lot of people, is very, very important. And I know that within the Hindu religion, caste is hugely, hugely for important for different reasons, but within, within the Muslim culture, and again, it's not religion. So this, this is, this is the other kind of problem that— not problem, but battle that I had. So growing up, there was a lot of mixing up of culture and religion, so that line was almost erased, so they all combined into one. And that was very, very difficult for me to kind of understand, and, and for, for a while, I kind of rejected I don't know if rejected is the right word or too much of a strong word, but I put my religion on pause because I, I didn't understand it. I I didn't, didn't accept it completely because of the misunderstanding of it. But I think that's one of the things that, you know, still happens today. But having now coming back to my religion and understanding the entirety of it, I see it in a completely different, different view. Point. And lots of things that were associated with, well, this is a religious thing and that's why we're doing it. It wasn't a religious thing, it was a cultural thing. You read the Quran and you think, well, actually that's, that's not even in there. And, but yeah, I was told that I have to do this, or this, it's gotta be done this way, it's gotta be done that way. So for me, that clarity of, you know, difference between what is culture and what is religion is so important. And I think that was half my battle. And I think, and not blaming my parents for any of this, because you've gotta understand that they were immigrants, and they were, you know, they came here in the '70s. They had to, you know, absolutely have had to, to day-to-day tolerate so much abuse. And I would, I can't put myself in them shoes. I'm thankful that they, you know, provided and they put me in a position that I'm in. But I think they had so much to contend with, and this was just another thing. So I think they did the best that they could with the resources and understanding that they had. So there's no, you know, I'm not sitting here blaming my parents or saying they were bad people, or my family, not at all. I don't put any kind of, um, anything like that at their door, because that would be completely unfair. No, because they were caught up in the same construct Joanne Lockwood: of tradition and culture, expectation, and they're just trying to pass their traditions and culture and expectations on to you. Yeah. As— because that's the expectation they have on them, because as you said, a of a lot the, lot of the shame was on them, not on you. Yeah. They, they, they weren't, they must have been bad parents for you to go off the rails and not be a, a good daughter. Yeah. So they have probably had to absorb all of that. Absolutely. And, and, and Misbah Gulzar: that's the one thing that really kind of I, I've had to battle with over the years and, you know, but then at some point you have to appreciate and you have to, and again, you don't need their valid. And the other thing that I've tried to do over the years is get their validation. And I wanna explain that a little bit more. I want them, I mean, both my parents sadly have passed away now, but I wanted them to know and to see the achievements and, and what what I, I had done with my life. I wanted them to be proud of me. I wanted them to kind of say, well, yeah, she did what she did, but look at how much she's accomplished on her own. So that, you know, and, and for years and years I used to crave for that validation. I wanted it, but then the realisation hit me that, you know what? That is important, and if it came, that would have been amazing. But actually, you have to validate yourself first. You shouldn't look to others for validation. And that was a key point for me to say, do you know what, as much as I would have liked my parents to see, you know, that I've bought my own house, I'm a single parent, I've been through lots of situations with the, you know, with the marriage that I was in, um, but actually I, I'm still focused. I'm still a good human. I'm very respectable. I haven't been doing drugs or drinking or gone off the rails. I, you know, I've been a perfectly respectable person. I've stayed true to who I am and I've represented you in the best way possible. So yeah, and, and now, like I say, I don't search for that validation. I don't want it. I don't need it. And and, and, and I, I think with having my kids as well, They're the only validation that I need. They're the only people that I need to not impress necessarily, but to be a good role model to. So I'm again assuming here that you've Joanne Lockwood: now created your own new family culture and traditions where you are the beginning of it and you've invented your own, this is what we do to your children and that they're they're presumably, free to explore their faith, their religion., or not, or whatever might make sense to them, and then explore their life in a way that you, maybe you didn't have the opportunity to. Yeah, no, absolutely. Misbah Gulzar: So my, I've, I've got 5 children, 2 of whom are, um, are Muslim and 3 are not currently Muslim. They're exploring. And again, it's something that I'm not pressurising them, but I am there for the knowledge and the understanding and the support. And I think for me, I would love them, if I'm being completely honest, I would love them for, for all of them to be Muslim in, in the correct way, but of course I'm not enforcing that. I just want them to be good adults, P adults, indiv— you know, I just want them to be the best people that they can be, the best, you know, um, people within society. And, and I think I'm proud of them regardless. They've, you know, there's no disappointment here. They are, you know, they've got their— they've got good heads on their shoulders, and, and they've, they've experienced faced lots of difficulties and they've experienced something that perhaps their friends haven't in terms of their, you know, their mum and their mum's situation. So, you know, my parents, my children are mixed race as well. So that's another layer that adds on to that. So they, they have to, um, you know, navigate that aspect of it as well. But yeah, all in all, they're, they're amazing and I couldn't be more thankful. That's wonderful. Joanne Lockwood: I know what it's like to seek validation from your parents. I did a bit of a, I don't know, I had a bit of a left turn when I was 16, 17, 18. I guess I went through that stage where I rebelled and I did something and I brought a little bit of shame to my parents because of what I did. And I never really reconciled with my father until maybe the last couple of years of his life. Life. And I realised I didn't need validation. I just needed him to understand that I've done okay. I may have caused him a lot of pain, may have caused him a lot of struggles. Yeah. And I've done things that he probably is confused about, but I just want to say to him, it's very similar to you. I'm doing all right. I've got a couple of kids. I'm married. I'm still married after 40, nearly 40 years. And I'm very successful and I add value in the world and society. You don't have to get it, just appreciate that I'm, I've not failed. And that's kind of all you want your, for from your parents really. And I think that's probably what I want from my children is for them to look at me and go, don't always agree with each other, but as long as we all respect each other, that's all you can ask for. No, absolutely. I had the opportunity Misbah Gulzar: to kind of get my father's forgiveness or reconciliation, whatever you want to, whatever you want to call it. And he, you know, sadly was at the later stages of his life. He suffered with leukaemia towards the end. So he asked for me to come and see him, which was a hugely emotional experience, as you can imagine. I've not seen him for years and years. And, you know, he was— I sat next to, you know, sat in next to his hospital bed and, you know, we spoke and a little bit and he forgave me and, you know, that's, that's all I kind of really wanted from him. So yeah, it was a. It was another turning point, but it was hugely difficult, but it was really welcome in the same way. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I know exactly what you mean. I was there when my father passed and he took his last breath. And I'm really pleased that we got to that point because there's no point in having regrets after someone's passed. You know, I didn't want him to carry that to his grave and I didn't want to get to a situation where I never, we never reconciled. And luckily we did. And I'm, I'm always proud of the fact that at the end we were together. Misbah Gulzar: Yeah. And it all worked out. Yeah. It's amazing. And I look Joanne Lockwood: back and I know I could have done things differently. I was, I had to share some of the challenges and he could have behaved differently, but in that last breath, none of that matters. You know, I was holding his hand and that's all that mattered. He knew he wasn't alone. And I think that was the important thing for me. So I'm pleased you, you were able to reconcile. Yeah. At least in part. So you, you've had a career. I noticed that you spent a lot of time working in the criminal justice system. That must have been a challenge as well. Misbah Gulzar: Yeah. So that, that was really interesting for me because I guess before anyone steps into a prison, we've got our own stereotypes of what a prison looks like, how it operates, how dangerous it is. Obviously I had all those stereotypes. And as I said earlier on, my intention was never to have a career within the prison service. It was just a stopgap. It was just, I'd been made redundant from Vodafone and I was looking for something in the interim. This came up. I thought, well, I'll do this for a little while. So yeah, I did that. And like I said, that I had the opportunity to work with lots of different individuals, understand their background, their stories, and I guess, you know, have a different perspective on crime and have a different perspective on you are a product of your environment. That doesn't necessarily mean that any criminal behaviour is justified. However, we have to understand the whole picture. So I, you know, worked primarily in Cat B prisons and in immigration removal centres. And within Cat B prisons, I saw lots of people that looked like they could have been my brother or my dad or my uncle. And that was, that, that was difficult to kind of really, you know, understand. And my role at the time was having, you know, taking meetings with prisoners, supporting prisoners in terms of equality and diversity. So I had a lot of contact with them, which was fine. Fine. I had no issues with that. But just sitting with them and trying to listen to kind of their storeys and how they got there and how they had, you know, what happened, and then looking at all the immense kind of skills and, and, you know, the, the, the skill set that they had and the talent, and such a waste that they were kind of in this environment. That was sad. That was very difficult to get my head around. But I had the privilege of working with, with lots of different individuals and hopefully made some type of impact in their lives and hopefully made them think a little bit differently. You know, I spoke to them as individuals, as humans, not as prisoners. I you didn't, know, see them as that. I just saw them as humans. But that was really, really empowering to be able to, you know, get someone to say, "Oh, Miss, I'm on this course now, and I'm on the course because you mentioned it, and when I get out, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that, and this, that, and the other." So, it was really— and I guess because there aren't a lot of people from ethnic minorities within the prison service, face, there aren't many role models. I kind of was really pleased that I was able to do a little bit of that. And the higher that you go into senior management, the less, the less kind of diversity you see. And then obviously, nearer towards the point that I was leaving, I was kind of quite senior in my role, and I got to make some kind of really senior decisions and make some impact, which I'm really kind of proud Yeah. Because Joanne Lockwood: we're all one bad decision away from potentially being arrested. And as you say, many, many people in the criminal justice system have made that one bad decision because their environment, their upbringing, the people they hang out with, or just something went badly wrong. And they, nobody sets out to be a career criminal until suddenly that's their life. And helping people be able to reverse back and not be judged on the entirety of this part of their life and saying, well, actually, let's go back to before that. How can how can we, we find that person again and set them on a new course? That's the investment we need to make in people, isn't it? Rehabilitation. Rehabilitation Misbah Gulzar: is key and it's the most important thing. And I think for me, regardless of whatever role you have within the prison system, whether you are the governor, whether you are a middle manager, whether you are an officer of whatever grade, you have a huge part to play in the rehabilitation. You've got prisoners. People looking at how you act. You are role models, essentially. So you're there, you know, not to just to lock doors and, you know, do the, the other not so nice stuff. You're there to support them in the way that they've probably never seen that support before. So lots of individuals have probably not been, had the privilege of having a comfortable environment with, you know, a mum and a dad. And, you know, they've probably seen things that many of us haven't had to, you know, experience. So So, they're in effect, they're starting again in terms of their socialisation and understanding of humanity. So, as working within the Prison Service, you've got to be conscious of that, and you've got you to, know, step away from your own stereotypes, and you have to be completely unbiased in terms of how, you know, you speak to people and how you treat people. And that is hard. That is very, very hard. But it's something that I guess you develop as you progress and you know, as, as you work within the Prison Service. State the best place to Joanne Lockwood: rehabilitate people? Because I think you're obviously hanging around in a culture, and no matter how much you want to rehabilitate yourself, escape from it, you're constantly being introduced to bad choices or bad relationships. I just wonder sometimes is whether the prison, the prison environment is the right place to rehabilitate, which is why people keep getting sucked back into it, or or it's almost like you're in a swimming pool and there's chains and you keep getting pulled back beneath the water all the time. Yeah. Misbah Gulzar: I mean, the rates of recidivism, as in people leaving and then reoffending, are quite high and they've been high for many years now. So I guess prison is probably not the place for rehabilitation for everybody. And I think at the moment it's kind of one size fits all, which it shouldn't be. There are a lot of people within the prison estate that are mentally unwell. The prison setting is not going to assist them in their wellbeing because of the way that it's set up. And on the other hand, there are people that absolutely need to be within that environment and absolutely have to abide by all the prison rules because that is exactly what they need. But, you know, we live in a society that, you know, the world is politically is just hugely just changing and we don't know what's going to happen in the not so far future. But I think in terms of prisons, prisons, they do need some kind of, you know, just reviewing. But when prisons work, they really work. So, you've got your access to education, you've got access to new skills and training that you potentially might not have on the outside. So, for somebody who wants to make that change and is willing to put the work in, the resources are there. So, you know, there's lots of resources. Does prison try to be too many different Joanne Lockwood: things? Because in one stream, it's there for punishment, for retribution, for the people who've been victimized, the people who've been traumatized, or they want to feel that justice has been served. So that, that there needs to be that element of restricted access and punishment, quite rightly in some respects. But also the other side of that is preparing someone for life after. I guess if you're you're behind bars for a long time, 5, 10, 20 years, then you've got a lot of time to reflect, but you've also got a lot of time to rehabilitate, become a better person, to see the error of your ways. But is the prison system geared up for that? That sort of duality, if you like, of purpose? I think when we kind of Misbah Gulzar: release prisoners back into the community, I don't think we've got that bit right. So the resettlement piece. So you've been inside for 10 years, maybe, maybe a little bit longer than that. You've served your sentence, you're now due to released, how do we support that individual? So from when they went in to when they come out, society's changed completely. It changes within, within months, things do change. So how do we support those individuals to become fully fledged members of their community? Support them not just financially, but support them psychologically as well, because the space that they left behind 10, 15 years ago is on— is not the same space. Um, you know, and then, you know, there's a whole question around housing and, and how do we get them in employment, you know. And all those areas, you know, there's— there needs to be some more work done on that. And some of the areas there is progress that is being made, but you've got to really try and put yourself in, in those shoes and try and understand and navigate— how do you navigate a society that has changed beyond belief and, you know, your IT, just to, you know, to start off with, with technology, the different language that's used, the different, you know, everything is just completely changed. So you don't want that individual then, because they've not got that support, to revert back to how they used to be, which is an easy thing to do and can be done quite quickly, and it would solve everything, and they would just be able to get into their little kind of, you know, groups again and operate as they did before they were incarcerated. So the resettlement piece is is. Joanne Lockwood: Huge. So if you were removed from society for 15 years, let's say that's 2010, you think about what was going on in 2010, the rise of mobile phones, AI, the televisions, the television programs, the fact we don't do cash anymore, we had COVID and there's a whole societal culture has changed phenomenally in 15 Yes. Yeah, I really do think Misbah Gulzar: that prior to resettlement, there's certain things that we need to be ensuring that, you know, when offenders do leave, they've got everything that they need. And it's not to say that it's like a toolkit. Yeah, maybe a toolkit that they're armed with and they've got some support, but then the support's got to be ongoing. It can't just be, okay, that's it, now you're released, you're free to do whatever you want to do. I think there's got to be that wraparound support for at least a year, I guess, just checking in with that individual and supporting them. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. For me, I keep thinking about this, you know, I look back at life in 1999, you know, you think for me, I'm just turned 60, 61. And I look back and think, well, 1999, it doesn't seem that long ago, but actually it was a different generation, even when our children were born in the early '90s, you look back to that stage and the world's changed so completely. And you look at a TV series like Call the Midwife and places like that, you think, actually, actually, it's now set in the year I was born, or I was a 5-year-old in that time. Wow, it's so backward, so different from today, the attitudes. And yeah, so to be released into that world, you'd lack that cultural competency, wouldn't you? Absolutely. You just don't understand the lingo, the language. It's like being in a foreign country. Definitely. Misbah Gulzar: I think that's a really good way to describe it. It would just be like you don't speak the language anymore. You don't understand the culture anymore. It's all changed. And yeah, I can't imagine how how difficult that must be. Joanne Lockwood: And that, the knock-on of that is you would lack a sense of belonging and fit in society. So you'd feel like an outsider. You'd maybe feel frustrated and angry or unsupported. And you, you're more likely to affiliate with people who have a similar kind of feeling of which are the, maybe the wrong crowd. Yeah. And, and Misbah Gulzar: you've gotta remember that you've, you've been living in an environment that is institutionalized, but you've been protected. You've been part of a community. Somebody's always asking after you. Someone's You know, we need to make sure that you are safe and all of that. And then you go from that situation to where you are just a small, small fish in the pond or whatever that terminology is. But to experience that is, um, it's a lot. And, and I think that's why a lot of people decide that they, this is too much, it's too hard, it's too difficult. Let me just go back to the life that I know and I understand and that talks my language. And that's when it's very unfortunate. And the prison system has failed, essentially. People who leave the armed forces, they have come Joanne Lockwood: from that environment as well, where you, you know exactly what's expected of you every minute of the day. Yeah. Who's in charge, who you're in charge of. And as you say, someone cheques in on you if something goes wrong, there's a support mechanism. And suddenly you are in the wide world and you, there's no rules, there's no enforcement other than be a good person. And earn a living and find somewhere to live and fall in love or to find some friends. But there's no rule book, is there? There's no instruction manual on that. No, not at all. So I noticed that you put in your notes there that you've recently been reintroduced to the gym. So you're finding fitness, are you? Well, to get through this period of the, you Misbah Gulzar: know, the redundancy and not, you know, having to do a 9 to 5 currently, it was getting a little bit difficult and I just needed to, there was no excuses anymore. I can go to the gym after I do the school run. I'm time rich now at the moment. I can drop the kids off and then just go to the gym for an hour. Do you know what? It's something that's really helping my wellbeing. It's something that's helping me, and I would absolutely recommend it. I know people are like, oh, it's the gym, and I haven't got enough time, or I can't be bothered, or it's just too much. But actually, I've definitely experienced the benefits of it, and I am a good advocate for it. And I definitely think it's— and as you get older as as well, well. I think it's really important. Yeah, so I, yeah, I love going to the gym now. I do a few yoga classes here and there. I just do— I don't do anything too heavy because I'm not like, you know, I'm not trying to build muscle or stuff like that, but I'm just trying to keep my body in, you know, in tone and stuff. So just the treadmill, rowing machine, and the step— the StairMaster. That's it. I'm good. Oh, StairMaster. Yeah, that's my Joanne Lockwood: nemesis. You know, I don't mind the rowing machine, I don't mind the I don't mind the, uh, um, the sit-on bike, you know, one the either the city up one or city down one or the treadmill. Yeah. Stairmaster, no, that, that, oh, that burns. That, yeah, it is hard. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's probably my least favorite. I used to have a personal trainer for a while and, uh, they'd say, you got the sled, haven't you? The one to push that along with the weights. I hate that as well. I said to, I said to my PT, I said, I'd rather do the Stairmaster than the sled. And they went, what, really? I said, I know, you know how much I hate the Stairmaster. But the sled, I just, I just couldn't. I don't know. It just, Misbah Gulzar: it's a lot. We all have our killer, killer Joanne Lockwood: stance, don't we? The one thing that, you know, oh, so I'm one of these people that likes to plank. Yeah, you could. Yeah, that's good though. That's really good Misbah Gulzar: for your core. I can do a minute. I can do a minute easily. And Joanne Lockwood: I was, I was doing a minute, minute rest, minute, minute rest. I could do 3. And I was, I never quite got to the point where I was going to do more than that, but I always had this dream I was going to do 5 minutes one someday. Maybe I'll go back to it. I'm sure you'll be able to manage it. Yeah. But I can never do the bit where you lift your hands up and put them back down again, or you tap your shoulders and things like that. That Misbah Gulzar: was— Yeah, that takes a lot of upper strength. Yeah. That's still good enough though. That's still good. Yeah. But I know what you mean. Joanne Lockwood: I haven't been for about 6 months. My wife and I, we've had some health difficulties. We've had bereavement issues. We've got a new puppy. So we've got lots of things going on in our life. And it just fell off the list. And now I'm taking the puppy for a walk every morning. My wife takes her every evening and I do a couple of miles at the weekend per day, Saturday and Sunday. So we're getting out there and doing stuff. So I'm getting some exercise. I need to, I do need to go back to the gym. So maybe, maybe you've just inspired me to go. I hope so. And anyone who's listening, what's your excuse if you're listening? Even 30 minutes, you don't have to like, and just go Misbah Gulzar: a couple of times a week. That's it. And I like the gym that I go to because it's got like a women's section. Not that I'm ashamed of my body or anything, but within that space, you just feel like you feel comfortable and you can just do what you need to do. I'm not one of these that wants to be like in the middle of the gym and just like everyone looking at me. And yeah, I kind of just want to do my thing. Yeah, just want to walk in, do my thing, walk back out again, and that's it, job done. I want to be, um, what's the word, inconspicuous. Yeah, just in and out. Because they could be quite intimidating spaces, Joanne Lockwood: can't they? Definitely. They've got their own, you know, we talked about culture earlier, fitting in, you've got to— you walk in there, you think, all these fit people, they've all got their act together, they've all got this, and no one needs to know what they're doing. I'm walking in, so now you use the machines, or what order, what's the protocol? Yeah, you think, oh, it's all too difficult, I'm out. As a newbie, it is— it can. Be a bit daunting Misbah Gulzar: initially. Yeah, especially when everyone else is, uh, in Joanne Lockwood: tight Lycra. And, uh, I know, I know, I get that. Yeah, yeah, that, Misbah Gulzar: that's something that That's a bit unusual for me, but yeah, whoever, whatever you feel comfortable in, I guess. Yeah, but not me. Not until I'm pregnant. Bagging them up. Well, after 5 kids, you just gotta, you gotta be, gotta be kind of serious and, and not be disillusioned in how you look or what your, what your stomach looks like. So it's, it's cool. I'm good, I'm happy. But yeah, Joanne Lockwood: just, just looking back to some of your life, you know, you've You've had some teenage years of having to reinvent yourself, having lived in an environment where the rules were defined for you, going off to university and realising that, hey, I can do whatever I like now, coming back into an environment where they wanted to put you back in a straitjacket and you go, hang on a minute, no, no, I've experienced freedom. And you then worked in the prison, as you say, a couple of careers, but you worked in the criminal justice system. Where it's an environment where people are put into regimented, you know, losing freedom of choice and freedom of expression. What do you take forward from this? You know, what's your big thought about the whole thing? I think Misbah Gulzar: for me, I've probably kind of gone full circle in terms of having worked in the prison system. And like you say, it's fully regulated. There's lots of rules and everything. And I I think for me personally, I have had to— working within the Prison Service has been amazing, don't get me wrong, but in terms of trying to get up the career ladder or facing kind of not necessarily discrimination, but facing barriers, that's been quite difficult for me to kind of— it took me like nearly 20 years to get to the point that I was at, and that wasn't my final point. I did want to achieve more than that. I think, you know, whilst at home I had some real difficulties, within the work environment I had difficulties. So, I can recall, you know, once I did get the role that I, the head of DE&I, I had to work with all the directors. And my first meeting, I walked in and there was just a sea of white male middle-class men, and I was the only person that wasn't of that description. And I had to sit at a table, and I felt so inadequate. I felt like, what, I'm not even supposed to be here? I didn't say anything within that meeting, although I had opportunities and I should have. I just didn't feel that I should have a seat at that table. Obviously, I had to do some real kind of like look, looking into myself and understanding that you are now at the table because you deserve to be at the table. Therefore, you have your voice and you do need to use it now. So gradually, as the meetings progressed, I understood what my role was. It was very hard because I had nothing in common. You know, when we have like the conversation questions of, oh, what did you do at the weekend? And just little conversations. There was nothing that I could relate back to with them. And I almost found myself having to— this is a really embarrassing thing to say— but only almost having to make things up so that I fitted in, which I'm truly embarrassed and ashamed of now. That— why did I need to do that? But at that point, obviously, I did need to do that just to fit in. But I think as I continued within my role and, and, oh, don't know what that noise is. As I became more part of the team, I understood what my role was and I really kind of contributed in the way that I knew that I, I should and, and I could. You've got a, a number of intersecting Joanne Lockwood: identities and I'm, you're a woman, you are of non-white descent, so your ethnicity, you've got your, your religion, your faith. Faith, you've got your single parenthood, your children, you've got your fitness because you know, now into the gym. Do those all layer on top of each other, or do you think one of those is, is a more of a challenge today than it should be? You know, being a single parent, it's not easy on its own, is it? So everything that you've described does Misbah Gulzar: make part of who I am, and really, I I'm one of those people that I you don't, know, some people like, they see somebody and the first thing they look at is the ethnicity Yes, that is part of me, but that is not all of me. And I think, you know, having to, like, being a woman, being somebody from the Muslim faith, being a single parent, having mixed-race children is a huge kind of thing and sometimes difficult to navigate. But I think that just kind of over the years, it's been hard, but I think over the years I've been able to understand each part of that intersectionality of me and try and combine it and put it together in the best way that I can. I don't want to be just a woman. I don't want to be just a Muslim. I don't want to be just, you know, a female. All of those aspects kind of are really, really important, but when you combine them together, that's what makes it amazing, if that makes sense. So it's not one individual thing. It's when you put them all together that creates the person that I am today, the strength that I have, and the outlook that I've got on life. I could quite easily and I could have done in the past, given up at different stages and thought, no, I can't deal with this anymore. I need to go back home where there's that comfort, where I'm gonna get the, the support, the financial support. I can just go back home and just knock on the door and they'll, they'll have me back. They'll have me back. But I didn't choose to go down that road because that would be giving up and that would be giving up everything that I'd worked for. So that would not be a, a, a wise thing to do. So I've I think, you know, the years, the things that I've experienced from like homelessness, from other things that a lot of people have actually experienced, and, you know, my children being taken to court and me having to kind of fight for them, having no representation, me going in and asking the judge and all of that, being, you know, kind of faced with all of that has been really, really difficult. But actually, looking back, I don't think I would change anything, Joanne. I don't think I would. I would still make that same decision if you were, if I, if you, if we rewind back to 20, 30 years ago, would I still decide to leave my, my, you know, home and, and stuff? Yes, I absolutely would. For what I've got today, for what I've got today, the fact that I am a— I can do what I want when I want. I've got no one questioning anything. I'm independent. I don't rely on anybody. I am respectful. I am all of those things. And I have got freedom of thought, which was the main reason that I wanted to leave that environment, because I didn't have freedom of thought. I didn't have freedom of identity. Identity, and those two things were really, really difficult for me to accept. And I, if I had, I stayed in that environment, I would definitely not have been the confident, vivacious, gregarious, whatever kind of descriptive, you know what, you know, I would not have been any of those. So yeah, I think it's really, it's, it's been a, it's been a challenge. There's been lots of ups and downs. It's not been easy, but I I definitely wouldn't change anything. I'd still do what I'd done to get to this point where I am here and now. And obviously the point that I'm in here and now, again, is something that is a situation I've never been in. So I'm currently, you know, I'm faced with redundancy. I'm looking for employment. I'm trying to set up my own business. I'm doing all of these things, but this is a different chapter of my life now where I've just got to push through. I've just got to do the best I can. Joanne Lockwood: Something you're saying there, and I think it resonates with me. If you like who you are today and you love your children, you love everything about what you've got, then you can't wish away something of your past because that past hadn't have occurred, you wouldn't be who you are today. You wouldn't have your children. And I look back at some of the mistakes I made. If I erased that mistake, I wouldn't have got married. If I hadn't got married, I wouldn't have my children. If I hadn't got my children, I wouldn't be— every decision you make, you're the product of that growth and that learning. So you can't look back in regrets. You can't, you know, to quote Oasis, you can't look back in anger. You can't look back at anything like this. What you've got to say is, I like me today. I like what I have. I like what I've achieved. And that's all been learning. I can affect tomorrow and let me make better decisions tomorrow. And you're still working on being the best version of Misbah Gulzar: you, which you've got, that's an ongoing thing. That doesn't just happen and then that's it, you step away and I'm perfect. No, that is a continuous thing. But having the option to be able to do that is, is huge. So, you know, No one makes any decisions for me. No one kind of tells you what I need to do, which is sometimes not necessarily a good thing because you want to share things with other people. But in the same way, you've got that total freedom to, you know, be the best that you can and, and not be, you know, blaming anyone else for anything because ultimately you've made those decisions and, and you've made that choice. So Joanne Lockwood: yeah, and that, that is powerful. You live and stand by your own means, and you can look back and look, look at yourself in the mirror and just be very proud of that. And to be Misbah Gulzar: honest, Joanna, I am, I am proud of that. I am proud of the fact that I've experienced what I've experienced and I've come through the other end, and I'm proud of what I've achieved. I'm proud of the fact that I've bought my own house. I did all of that on my own, whereas, you know, my siblings had support, and that's absolutely fine. But I'm happy with the way that I've tackled life, and I'm happy with the achievements. I've still got so much more to do. I'm not anywhere near where I want to be, but I'm on that path, and, and I'll continue to do the right thing, and I'll continue to, to be the best version of me. I've been love chatting to you for Joanne Lockwood: the last hour or so. How can people get a hold of you? Okay, so Misbah Gulzar: I do— I am on LinkedIn, um, and I do post quite regularly. So if you want to kind of catch up on it on any of my posts there, and I can leave you my LinkedIn details after. Yeah, so that's primarily where you can kind of get a hold of me. Joanne Lockwood: So, Misbah, M-I-S-B-A-H, or Miss, M-I-Z-Z, to your friends? And no, I, when I used to be a Mizz, but then I thought, Misbah Gulzar: why am I shortening my name? You know, the, the whole fitting in thing. So now it's my full name or nothing at all. So yeah, so it's Misbah . Yeah. But Joanne Lockwood: yeah, Misbah is your name. Yes. No more, no more short, no more abbreviated. Not at all. It's not hard to say. It's not, I know it's not Misbah Gulzar: your, you know, common name and everything, but you know, it's quite easy to pronounce. So yeah, we'll, we'll stay with that. But it's your name, Joanne Lockwood: that's the important thing, nobody else's. And I think that's fantastic. So thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us today and I've really enjoyed our conversation. Misbah Gulzar: Likewise. Thank you so much, Joanne. Thank you. Bye. Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever-growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family, and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories, or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. And let's. Make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire, and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.