---
title: "Equity By Design"
episode: 212
date: 2026-06-12
guest: "Celeste Warren"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/212-equity-by-design
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-212/audio.mp3
---

# Equity By Design

In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood speaks with Celeste Warren about equity by design and what it takes to build truly inclusive workplaces. Celeste shares formative family stories, including her father’s experience as the first Black teacher and principal in his community, and uses those lessons to explain how trust, resilience, and persistence shape her approach to inclusion. The conversation explores the burden often placed on marginalised people to adapt in order to be accepted, and contrasts that with the responsibility organisations have to remove barriers and create fair access to opportunity. Joanne and Celeste discuss authenticity, dignity, affinity bias, and the common misconception that diversity and equity lower standards. They also examine why equity is not preferential treatment, but a practical way of meeting people where they are so they can thrive. A major thread throughout the episode is culture change: challenging ingrained habits, helping people understand the value of difference, and encouraging active allyship rather than passive awareness. Celeste uses accessible analogies to show how equity works in practice, why it matters for recruitment and progression, and how leaders can support both structural change and mindset shift. The episode closes with a clear message that equity benefits everyone when done well. Listeners are left with a call to action to question outdated assumptions, support inclusion in their own contexts, and help build workplaces where people are valued for who they are.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Weclome
- 01:40 — Lessons in Overcoming Adversity
- 04:40 — Life Before Social Media
- 09:06 — Building Proactive Affinity Bias
- 12:39 — Black Women Navigating Workplace Challenges
- 15:14 — Authenticity vs Organisational Respect
- 20:25 — Equity, Opportunity, and Diversity Misconceptions
- 21:33 — Challenging Bias in Hiring Practices
- 25:45 — Equity, Access, and Removing Barriers
- 27:55 — Equity: Tearing Down Barriers
- 35:02 — Questioning Tradition Fuels Innovation
- 39:52 — Global Political Pendulum Shift Trends
- 43:11 — AI, Barriers, and STEM Diversity
- 46:37 — Understanding True Diversity and Inclusion
- 50:01 — Inclusion Bites: Join Us
- 50:52 — Fostering Inclusion, One Episode

## Key takeaways

- The distinction between diversity, inclusion, and equity, and why acts of equity are imperative for moving from access to belonging.
- How lived experience and resilience shape approaches to challenging bias and driving sustainable DEI outcomes.
- The consequences of affinity bias and strategies for transitioning individuals from "otherness" into trusted in-groups.
- The invisible psychological tax of being from a marginalised group and how to foster environments that support authenticity without sacrificing respect or professionalism.
- Reframing perceptions of DEI—from tokenism and preferential treatment to recognising equity as foundational to organisational success.
- Practical methodologies for addressing systemic barriers, using analogy and storytelling to engage and educate those in positions of privilege.
- The evolving landscape of workplace inclusion, considering current social and economic challenges, and why a mindset shift is essential for lasting change.

## FAQs

### What does “Equity by Design” mean in the context of inclusion?

“Equity by Design” refers to intentionally embedding equity principles into the structures, policies, and everyday practices of organisations. As discussed by Celeste Warren, it means recognising individuals’ varying circumstances and proactively addressing barriers that might hinder access, participation, or advancement. It is not about offering preferential treatment, but about ensuring everyone has what they need to thrive.

### How do diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) differ, and how are they connected?

Diversity is the presence of differences among people, both visible and invisible—such as race, gender, background, or experiences.
Inclusion involves creating a culture where those diverse individuals feel they belong, are valued, and their voices are leveraged.
Equity bridges the gap by recognising that people start from different places and need different support to gain equal access to opportunities. 

As Celeste Warren explained, inclusion creates the environment, diversity brings differences into the room, and equity ensures everyone reaches the collective goal.

### Why do some people feel threatened by equity initiatives or DEI work?

Resistance often arises from misunderstandings about what DEI is and isn’t. As discussed, some assume equity means “lowering standards” or giving special favours, particularly when hearing about equity initiatives in recruitment or progression. However, as Celeste Warren pointed out, equity is about removing systemic barriers so all qualified people—including those from historically marginalised groups—can succeed, not about compromising quality or fairness.

### What is the difference between “authenticity” and being “unfiltered” at work?

While openness and authenticity at work are encouraged, Celeste Warren noted that authenticity must be balanced with accountability. Being one’s true self doesn’t mean disregarding mutual respect or professional standards. Authenticity should never come at the expense of others’ dignity.

### How can organisations move beyond their default view of “ideal candidates” based on stereotypes?

Joanne Lockwood and Celeste Warren highlighted that job specs and recruitment processes are often unconsciously shaped by the demographics or experiences of hiring managers. Organisations need to value competencies beyond technical skills, such as lived experience and empathy, and should challenge implicit assumptions about who fits best in a role. Structured awareness and education are key to broadening these mindsets.

### What’s the impact of historic marginalisation on confidence and engagement?

Systemic barriers and generational messages can embed a sense of limitation or reduced self-belief in marginalised individuals (Joanne Lockwood, Celeste Warren). Removing structural barriers is important but not sufficient—organisations also need to offer support and encouragement so individuals from marginalised groups can believe in, and seize, new opportunities.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 212 with the title Equity by Design. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Celeste Warren. Celeste is a diversity, equity and inclusion strategist, an author, speaker and the founder of Celeste Warren Consulting, with over three decades of experience helping organisations embed equity and build inclusive cultures that drive meaningful and sustainable outcomes. When I asked Celeste to describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability to connect heart and and strategy, turning complex ideas about equity and inclusion into clear, actionable models that leaders can implement today. Hello, Celeste, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for

Celeste Warren: the invitation. I'm glad to be here, absolute pleasure. We're having a quick chit

Joanne Lockwood: chat earlier in the. In the green room. And whereabouts in the world are you now? I am in, outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It's about two and a half

Celeste Warren: hours from New York City and on the east coast of the United States and it is absolutely freezing here. We've had a very, very cold snap that is a little bit unusual for this part of the country but, but we're hanging in there, trying to stay warm. But I'm originally from, from Pennsylvania, the state of Pennsylvania, but western Pennsylvania, which is a small steel mill town. And my father was the first black teacher, black principal in that area. And, and so, you know, my, I guess we call it origin storey or backstory. I grew up in a household. There were five kids, mom and dad, and as I said, my dad was the first black teacher, first black principal in that area. And every day that he would come home, my mom would say at the dinner table, you know, hey honey, how was your day? And that would start a conversation that really was ingrained in me as a child. I all the way through my adult journey and he would talk about the challenges that he faced being the first black man, you know, in this area. And, you know, what he had to go through, some of the obstacles, some of the barriers, and then he didn't just sit there at the dinner table and complain. He then would say, and here's what I did about it. Because he wanted to teach us, his children, that the colour of your skin, your gender, how you identify is. It may cause you problems throughout life, challenges throughout life, but don't let that stop you from being able to achieve whatever it is that you desire to achieve. And that was sort of. I got a front row seat to that my entire childhood and teenage years. And that just was, if you can imagine, just ingrained in me throughout my formative years. That's sort of what's grounded me into the work that I am doing today.

Joanne Lockwood: Wow, that's a fascinating backstory in origin. It's. I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I think you've had what sounds like a really good foundational upbringing around some of the good principles of what it is in the world. And I sometimes wonder whether our modern generation are being brought up with that level of resilience and robustness to be able to challenge and stand up. And maybe it's our social media world, maybe it's the way we're bringing people up now. We seem to be very quick to react and weaponize our particular characteristic rather than actually say, I've got this now, how can I make.

Celeste Warren: Yeah, yeah, you know, well, we, you know, coming up for those of us that are on that other side of 50, we didn't have social media, we didn't have the Internet, we didn't have, you know, email, we didn't have the technology that could connect people like they do today, like my children do today. And also, too, is that sort of, you know, you talked about that reaction, being able to, I mean, just reacting to stuff immediately without sort of thinking about it and that. And sometimes, you know, you get that keyboard courage and you put stuff out there without really filtering it and thinking through it. And I think growing up, we had the opportunity to think things through, at least that's kind of what I was taught, you know, think things through, think about the consequences of your actions. And that sort of just sort of just stayed with us. And we didn't have a choice because there was nothing sort of quick in the moment that from a technology standpoint that would, that would put things out there across the globe, you know, like the Internet does now. And like social media, you might react in the moment, but the only person that would see it is people that are around four or five people, maybe that are around you. So it was a very different time than it is right now. You know, there's good and there's also, you know, opportunities as well. But I just think that growing up the way I did, when I did, where I did, with those circumstances, really helped me from a foundational standpoint, because it really taught me, okay, you are a black woman in the world today, and there are going to be challenges, there are going to be obstacles. You know, he didn't paint the world as rosy, you know, but he also said, I don't ever want you to use that as an excuse as to why you can't achieve throughout your life. That's kind of the lesson that he. That he taught us by the conversation that he would have at the dinner table. And I thought that was really, really important. I remember one story that he told me that just has always stuck with me. I was in. I was home for college, and he was telling me a story about how when he. After he got his master's degree in education and he. He got his master's degree in English, and so he was hired at the school, but they didn't hire him as an English teacher. They hired him as a gym teacher in the gymnasium, and they didn't have a gymnasium. That's the sad thing about it. And so he had to teach the students in the parking lot of the school. And so he's teaching the kids, you know, physical education and all of that. And. And when he would be out there, the. The kids that he was teaching, the parents of those children would come and park their cars in the parking lot and watch him as he was teaching these kids, and he's telling me the story. And I was kind of like getting angry, like, well, what did they think you were going to do to their children? And he said, well, I don't know. He said, you know, I was a black teacher. They. They weren't used to black teachers. And so they. I said, did you get angry? Did, like, what did you do? And he said, no, I didn't get angry. I just taught the kids. I did my job. And then he said, you know what happened? One by one, those cars went away till it got to a point where no parents felt a need to come and park their cars and watch me teach their kids. They. They then, they finally built a gymnasium. And then eventually he ended up an opening occurred in the English department and he was able to teach English and then, you know, his career throughout administration as well. That story kind of stuck with me because he overcame the adversity of those parents not trusting him to teach their kids by just doing his job and doing it well until they eventually, probably the kids probably went home and told their parents, like, why are you coming and parking there and watching, you know, Mr. Phillips, that's, that's crazy. He's a nice teacher, he's very good. And we're learning a lot from him about physical education and how to stay healthy and etcetera, etcetera. And so he had, in that process, he's built the trust of those students and then ultimately built the trust of the parents as well. And that story has stuck with me for decades. And it's been a lesson around how I go about doing what I do and have done throughout my career.

Joanne Lockwood: In a way, that's building your own affinity bias, isn't it? Because if we don't know people, they're in and out group, we don't trust them, we don't want to communicate with them, we don't engage with them, we don't value them. But as soon as you start to become comfortable and know someone's story, no one's capability, then they become part of your in group and then you can start to trust and engage. It sounds like that's what happened in that scenario where at first this person was an Other. They're on the outside, there's no trust. And it took that pattern of this person seems to be, okay, I'll trust them, you trust them, we're all trusting them. No, there's no story here, we can move on. And it's building that affinity bias, if you like, proactively to bring that person into your circle of trust, isn't it? That's exactly it. And

Celeste Warren: he didn't do anything differently. He didn't, you know, because I can, you know, you can imagine someone with a different temperament might have walked up to those parents in the car and banged on the window. What are you doing? And why are you watching me? And that, that definitely was not the temperament of my dad, but he just did his job and, and instilled trust and with, with everyone. And you're exact, you're exactly right to the point when he passed away in 20, about. Well, it's been close to eight years now. When he passed away, they lined the streets when we were going from the, the church to the cemetery. They Lined the streets, the students lined the streets in front of the school to say goodbye to him. And he had been retired from the school system for many, many years at that point. And they actually named, they renamed the elementary school after him. And so, yeah, and so it's, it's, you know, when you talk about legacy, when you talk about that, that the characteristics and the behaviours and the mindset of someone who, in his own way, he was bringing about change, he was bringing about societal change, organisational change throughout his career, because he was paving the way for others to be able to come in after him and do what he did in that. In that school district and in, in the community as well. I'm just trying to phrase this into, into

Joanne Lockwood: the thinking that it seems such a. It's a burden on people who are from marginalised, minority, voiceless backgrounds. However you want to describe individuals, it's incumbent upon them to behave in a way that makes them acceptable to others in order so they can get the change acted. Whereas if you were from a majority background, you would just be you and not have to think about all this, not carry the weight of responsibility or whiteness on your shoulders. You just are. Whereas as soon as you've got a characteristic, you then represent. And that's a real burden that minority people face. Is it? Is it? Oh, yeah,

Celeste Warren: it was hugely that way for decades, well, probably centuries, but. But it was very much that was sort of the weight that we carried. And, you know, you fill in the blank of marginalised group, whatever identity that. That was the weight. I think now what we're trying to teach individuals is be you don't try to carry that weight because that, that's unfair. You know, one of the things that I know, my father knew, my grandfather knew and grandmother and mother was that was unfair for us to have to carry that weight throughout our lives. You know, life is. Can be hard enough without having to have to carry that weight of. You have to make sure you're doing, especially in this day and age, at least in the United States, Black women are really, you know, it's just very challenging right now with the, the job situation being what it is. Black women are the ones that are losing the most as far as jobs in the United States. And there's that, there's that tightrope that you're walking regardless of your identity, if you're in a minority group. But it's tightrope of, well, I want to be respected for who I am. I can't act in a certain way because Then I will fall into the stereotype of that they have for people who identify as I do. And so I need to make sure I'm, like, walking this thin line. And it's very exhausting. It's so exhausting. And so, you know, taking the time to say, this is me, this is who I am, and, you know, not in a way that's disrespectful to yourself or to others, but just basically saying, this is what I bring to the table. This is the value that I bring. This is who I am. And I bring a value that will benefit, whether it be an organisation or a team or whatever the entity is. But I bring a value because of who I am. And we need to kind of flip the switch a bit. I have a T shirt that I just got. I saw it. Where did I see it? I think I saw it on Instagram and I was like, I got to have that. And it has be you. The world will adjust. And I thought, oh, how nice is that? That? And it's just. That's the lesson that I like to teach young, young people when I talk to students at universities and my own children who are, you know, in their 20s, is be you. Because if you try to be somebody else, especially in an organisation, you know, you come to a company and you. You sort of act like you think they want you to act, that is exhausting. You can't do that for a sustained period of time. It's just not sustainable. And so make sure that you are yourself because you bring a value to whatever entity, organisation, group, team that you're. That you're entering in. And if you didn't, then they wouldn't have brought you in. And so make sure that you always understand that and hold your head up high and contribute in the best way that you know how to contribute.

Joanne Lockwood: You're so right about this being yourself. And I think we talk a lot these days about authenticity, don't we? The. The fact that there's a fine line between being authentic and being unfiltered, isn't there? You see, you need to be accountable for your authenticity as well. Oh,

Celeste Warren: absolutely. You know, I. When I talk with folks, I was 10 years as a Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer with a Fortune 50 company, and one of the things that I would get challenged sometimes by folks is like, well, I want to be my true self. I want to be my authentic self. And I said, it's, yes, we want you to be your authentic self because you bring value to the organisation, but understand that you are in an organisation. And that organisation, the foundations of that organisation, is treating people with dignity and respect. And if the true you isn't someone who can treat people with dignity and respect, well, that you needs to go somewhere else, because that's not foundationally the culture that we, that we nurture within the organisation. And so there's a difference between, I like to say there's a difference between business casual wear and come as you are. And business casual is, you know, still, still professional, but it, but it's, it's, it's comfortable for you. So you can think, you know, in the workplace and be productive, but come as you are. As you walk out of bed and you come work with flip flops and shorts on. That's not the same thing. And so it's exactly what you said about the filter. You have a responsibility and accountability to, yes, speak your mind, but do it in a way that you still maintain dignity and respect of your colleagues. One of the challenges I see in the

Joanne Lockwood: world at the moment is the DEI pushback or the DEI must die type type sort of rhetoric that's out there, that what seems to be happening is the people who are the majority, the incumbent, the monoculture, whatever it may be, are now saying, well, hang on a minute, people keep telling me I can't do this, I can't behave that way, I've got to behave in a certain way and why can't I be authentic? Why can't I be myself? Why can't I have my views? Everybody I know has similar views to me. I'm not in a minority. And what we, what we seem to be doing here is that in the situation where we're almost competing with whose views are palatable in our organisations, in society, how do we rationalise those two perspectives? Where does the power and the culture lie there? Well, I think

Celeste Warren: that, first of all, people have different perspectives and different views. That's the world that we live in and we've always lived in that world. Everybody has different perspectives, different ideas, different beliefs, and that's fine. But you have to be able to have productive conversations about those different perspectives in a way that respects other people's perspectives and in a way that doesn't harm other people in a way that doesn't belittle other people in a way that doesn't say that because you believe that or you feel that you're less than and you don't count and you shouldn't count, your beliefs shouldn't count for anything. And that's where I think sometimes people Sort of lose perspective because you and I can have a great discussion about something and we can decide, agree to disagree and walk away and still be colleagues and associates. And that's the piece that I think that we've forgotten. And another thing too is, you know, with diversity, equity, inclusion, they just, they have looked at this as something that it isn't. So diversity is simply differences in people. Those you can see and those you can't see. Organisations are not run by robots, most of them, but robots were created by humans. So the human element is in every organisation, every ecosystem. And so that's diversity. The differences in all those, in all those people. Inclusion is, you have to surround them with this culture that all of those differences can be leveraged in a way that gets you to this collective purpose. And if we were talking about an organisation, that collective purpose would be the mission or the vision of that organisation. But equity then is, okay, how do I take all of these people with all these different skills, capabilities, identities, backgrounds, life experiences, how do I take all of these people with all these differences and get them to this collective purpose? Well, you do that through acts of equity. You meet people where they are, understand all of those differences that are embodied in that person. What are some of the obstacles and barriers that get in the way from them being able to aspire to whatever it is that they aspire to get to. And then once you understand that, then you build the steps to get them to that collective purpose. And some of those steps are going to be such that they're going to benefit 80% of the people. And then some of those steps have to be sort of tailored a bit so you can meet a person where they are and get them to that collective purpose. And that's kind of how I pragmatically try to explain diversity, equity, inclusion. It's not about preferential treatment for one group over another. It's simply about giving people what it is they need to have access to opportunities. And that's where the, the, the rub gets. Because if one person's getting something and another person's not getting it, then it's like, oh, okay, you're getting something and I'm not. And it's, it's in the spirit of getting to this access and these opportunities and everybody doesn't come from the same place. And so you got to look at people individually as individuals and help them to get to where it is that, that, that they, they want to get to. And I think that's, you know, that's one thing and then another Thing, Joanne, is when, when people say, you know, DEI, the first thing that's going through their head is that you're lowering the standard of performance or quality of a role that that person is gone into. You know, I always, I used to get in conversations if I'm sitting in a room and there's the recruiter and then there's the hiring manager, and the recruiter would inevitably say something like, well, I want to make sure that you have a qual. A diverse candidate slate. So I'm bringing you candidates from all different walks of life to choose from for your role. And then the hiring manager might say something like, well, I want to make sure that they're, you know, they're qualified for the role. And I would politely stop the conversation there and say to the manager, well, why did you feel a need to say that? After the recruiter said, I want to make sure that I'm bringing you a slate of candidates that are from all different walks of life, all different identities, et cetera. And they would, you know, him and haw and sort of not really answer the question. And I said, because, first of all, would you. After you sat. Because, you know, usually this is halfway through the meeting. It's like after you sat through this meeting and you've given the recruiter the skills, the capabilities, the years of experience, the type of capabilities and competencies that you need that they need to have years of experience that they need to have for the role, we've had this, this conversation. And then you say, well, I want to make sure that the person's qualified after they said that. And so your, your assumption and your bias is because they said they wanted, they're going to bring in diverse candidates that they're, they're inferior and they're. But they're or not qualified for the role that you have. That's an insult to the recruiter because their job is to bring you candidates for your role that meet the qualifications that you've outlined in your conversation. But the thing that you don't realise is those skills, those capabilities, those experiences, they can be embodied in all kinds of different identities. And a lot of times, depending on the, the, the hiring manager, I'll say, well, close your eyes. And I want you to envision the perfect candidate for your role. What, what do they look like? And they, and they stop. Because then it's like, okay, well, they're picturing this white male, 40 to 60 years old, and it's like that's when it starts to dawn on them that, okay, okay, I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying, Celeste. And it's like you need to understand that, you know, number one, you're insulting the recruiter. You're trying to say that they don't know how to do their job. Number two, the skills and capabilities and experiences that you identified. Look. Can be embodied in people that have all different types of identities. And three, the perfect person doesn't necessarily look the way you do. And having that conversation with them really helps. It's a teaching moment, it's a learning moment. But. But it's necessary because otherwise they'll continue doing that in other roles that they have. And then other people are watching them too, you know, maybe watching them within earshot of the whole. The whole. I hear that all the time.

Joanne Lockwood: This is belief that hiring for diversity means hiring for second best because you're hiring somebody who is perceived to be less competent because they're diverse. Yes. And that is exactly what you're describing there. And there's this almost like this. If it wasn't for this diversity hiring, the white guy would get it. Now we're having to say, Hank, why can't the white guy have it? He must be the best person for the job. This incumbency still plays out in many, many organisations. And what you're describing there, and you're right, it's how do we get this across and how do we. How do we get people to see past those default demographics and say. Because often when you're developing the job spec and doing your recruitment marketing, as you say, you've got this avatar of the perfect candidate in your head, and that's often based on the demographic of the person who's thinking about it at the time. It's, how do we reevaluate the ideal candidate where we're valuing some of those lived experience traits and that you maybe don't get with another characteristic. And you almost like saying, well, actually, if we're doing some balanced metrics here, empathy, compassion, lived, experienceable to communities, whatever it may be, is actually more important than pure technical skill, because actually, I need some personality in there as well. So we've got to try and rebalance the job spec, haven't we? Yes. Yeah. And you know, the

Celeste Warren: example that I like to use is we've all seen that illustration by Deloitte where there's three individuals and they're all. In the first illustration, three individuals and they're all standing on one rock and they're. They're in front of the fence the person on the right cannot see over the fence with the one rock. The person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence. Then you go, and they all have one rock. So hey, everything is good, right? But still the two people to the right can't see over the fence. And so then you get to the second illustration. The person on the right has been given two additional rocks, the person in the middle has been given one additional rock, and the person on the left still has the one rock because they were still able to see over the fence. Those rocks in my analogy that I use with that illustration, those rocks are the acts of equity that I was talking about to give them opportunity to be able to have the same access that the person has on their left. And the fence in my analogy are all of those, I call them the isms, those things that didn't crop up overnight. And it's going to take longer term strategy to sort of pull them apart from institutions, from organisations, from society like isms, like racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, et cetera. And so we have to be doing both in order to, to get to that third illustration where the rocks are gone and the fence is gone. But what is happening, the acts of equity are causing disruption because the person who was standing on one rock in the first illustration and still standing on one rock in the second, but they're looking to their right and they're saying, well, how come they have three rocks, they have two rocks and I still have one. That's not fair, that's not equitable. And the challenge is because they don't see the fence that's in front of them because they've always been able to see over it. They don't know how that fence manifests itself and behaviours to his colleagues on the right. They don't know about marginalisation, they don't know about bias, they don't know about the obstacles and the barriers that get in the way that are embedded into that, that the isms in that fence and so those of us that are doing the work of diversity, equity, inclusion, creating more inclusive cultures and belonging, we have to put the acts of equity in place, put the rocks in place. So, so we can still still have. Those are sort of the short term midterm strategies, we have to tear the fence down, that's the longer term strategy. And then we also have to have a conversation with that person standing on one rock and say, okay, here's some things that you need to Understand, you've always been able to see over that fence. That fence is there. And here's how it manifests itself in behaviour. Give them things to read and articles to read or books to read or training to take or, you know, give them thing resources to educate themselves and then have a conversation with them and help them to understand how that fence, first of all, that's there, second of all, they have always been able to see over it for whatever number of reasons. And then third, how. What it manifests itself to his colleagues on the right and why it's necessary for those acts of equity while we're tearing down the fence. And then lastly, we don't want you to just intellectualize it, we want you to be active allies. We want you to get in the boat, we want you to grab an oar and we want you to row with us and help us to get up the river so we can get to that third illustration where the rocks are not needed, the fence is torn down and then everybody can see the beautiful mountains and even that person that could see over the fence the whole time with a fence torn down, their aperture has been widened and broadened because now they're able to see not just the top, but they're able to see other things that maybe that fence was obstructing and they didn't even realise it. And that's why, you know, I say everybody wins when we get it right. Equity. You know, right now we're at a stage where we're putting the rocks of equity in place and we're trying to tear down the fence and that individual. Those conversations still need to be had with the individual standing on the one rock, as painful as they can be sometimes. But we're not going to get to that third illustration if we're not all working together. It's. It's just going to. It's going to be very, very difficult. Yeah. Was it

Joanne Lockwood: JFK said a rising tide floats all boats equally or whatever. So what we're trying to do here is we're not trying to float your boat higher or lower than my boat. We're just trying to raise the tide so we're all floating and we're all off the rock, if you like. Yeah. And that's the

Celeste Warren: reason why, you know, the myth about preferential treatment, because the individual, all they see is the rocks. The fact that they have three, they have two and they only. They only have one and they don't see the fence, they don't see the larger ecosystem of what's happening. You know,

Joanne Lockwood: it's all very well and I just play with your analogy and your, your, your model here. So we've achieved justice, which is the final box. There's no fence, we don't need the rocks. We can all see, we can all, we can all participate fairly neatly in society. But part of the challenge at that point there is the internalisation, the ingrained mindset of somebody who has been brought up in a marginalised community, experienced marginalisation, discrimination themselves. How do we re. Engage them? Because I think sometimes we look at the mindset of people. Whereas people who are used to succeeding and having everything their own way have a certain mindset. But people who are used to being knocked back go into situations where less belief, less confidence, less support network, all these things. So it's all very well removing some of the barriers, but we've also got to help enable people. There's even more equity. We've got to give them, give them self belief, isn't it? Oh yeah, there,

Celeste Warren: there's a, it's about mindset shift, a shift in mindset shift in behaviours. And you talk about a tightrope having conversations with individuals that it, so that individual that was standing on one rock when they grew up, just like I grew up around the table with what my conversation with my parents, they grew up around the table with certain conversations. And so you're telling them that, okay, if we want, want an inclusive society, you have to forget about or rewire what mom and dad and Auntie and Granddad told you coming up. That's not an easy conversation by any means, but it's one that's necessary in order for us to get to that third illustration. And, and, and on the, on the other side too, to your point, of the marginalised group that has always been those behaviours have manifested to them of the obstacles and the barriers getting in their way and that's the way their life has been and their journey has been. Unfortunately, it's the same thing as, you know, domestic violence and the woman who, her husband's been beating her for years. And then one day he says, well, I'm not going to do it anymore. And all of a sudden she's just supposed to flip and be this different person when every single time he raises his hand she flinches. And for years afterwards. So all of this mindset and behaviour change needs to occur as well for everyone, for us to really, truly benefit from that third illustration. Because once we tear the fence down, once we, the rocks are, and we don't need the rocks we simultaneously need to be working on ourselves.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. So the people who needed the rocks, they need to believe they don't need the rocks anymore. And that's half the battle as well. Trust. It's

Celeste Warren: all about trust. It's all about trust. And that's a hard thing to overcome when there's been centuries and centuries of behaviour that has been against you and your. And your. Have you ever come across the story or the anecdote? I

Joanne Lockwood: don't know how true it is, but apparently someone did some research and they put five monkeys in a cage with a ladder and some bananas at the top of the ladder. And the monkeys used to climb the ladder, eat the bananas, and then every day they put more bananas on the ladder. Then one day they started. Every time a monkey climbed the cage, they started squirting the monkey who's getting the banana with water. So the monkey learned, if I got the ladder, grab the banana, I'm going to get wet. So it stopped doing it. Then the other thing they started doing was if a monkey did go up the ladder, instead of squirting the monkey who was up the ladder, they squirted the monkeys who weren't on the ladder. So when the monkey came down, the monkeys at the bottom who were being squirted then beat up the monkey. Oh, wow. The ladder to reinforce it. And then as this experiment, they swapped the monkeys out and put new monkeys in and the new monkeys learned the behaviour of the. Of the group. Yeah. And eventually, after a year, there was no monkeys in the cage who had ever been squirted with water or ever had a problem. So they, they'd always attack a monkey who went up the ladder to grab a banana, because that's what they did. And that's kind of the belief system you end up reinforcing, as you say, for generations and generations of oppression or marginalisation. This is the way it is. I've internalised this. I can't succeed, I won't succeed. You're not going to like me, you're going to reject me. This person's always going to get the job, whereas the person who is in that incumbent never been squirted with water. Getting bananas is going to be gung ho going, I see no barriers. And that's often why they succeed more, because they're not constrained by their history. Yeah, there's

Celeste Warren: a. There is. It is. All of this is not going to be something that is going to happen like that. And the cornerstone of trust is this hard. It is hard for all the reasons that that we talked about the experiment that you just talked about, all of it. You know, it's, it's sort of in an organisation, you come into an organisation and someone trained you. That person who's trained you has been with that organisation for 20 years. The person who trained them 20 years prior to that had been with the organisation for 20 years. And, and they're thinking, well, why do you, why do we do it that way? Because that's the way that we've always done it and they're training them the same way when that might be antiquated, an antiquated way of doing it. Especially when you think about the technology that has evolved over 20 or something years. And so, you know, that's, that's one of the, it's a, it's another example of how organisational culture becomes so ingrained. It's beyond the HR policies and procedures and the rules and the this and the that, but it's, it's the people and how they behave with the unspoken rules and the behaviours and it's so funny, but what I've seen from a generational standpoint, what I've seen with young people this generation Z and you know, to a degree with Y too, as they were coming into the workforce, but they asked the question, well, why do you do it like that? Well, why? That doesn't seem like, well, do you know that you can download this app and that can be done in two seconds? Right? So the reason why I have hope, one of the reasons why I have hope is as I look and I talk with this generation, this new generation, they courage to be able to say and ask questions, why? Why? Why? Like a five year old toddler, why? Well, why? Well, why? Why? And then when you can't answer the question, then you have to think to yourself, well, why do we do this? And as, as the new generations come into the workplaces, they have this perspective that is so refreshing because they're not afraid to ask the question why, which is, which is good because that helps us to sort of break that cycle of doing it, because that's the way that we've always done it and be able to think about new. Because we're only going to survive if we, if we nurture innovation and creativity, that's the only way that, that societies survive and thrive. Innovation, creativity. And if we stomp on that, then that's going to be very, very problematic for our future. Any future, any country, any organisation. You said earlier a statistic around

Joanne Lockwood: in the US and probably other parts of the World around, the number of layoffs affecting black women are disproportionately higher. What's the hypothesis around that? What's the why? You know, it can't just be because they're black women. It must be a circumstance or an inequity or something in the social constructs of society that because they're black women, they're therefore more likely. But it's not because. Just because they're black women, is it?

Celeste Warren: Yeah, you know, so data would say that there's been a lot of layoffs in the United States, especially in the federal government, in those type roles, which a large percentage of folks that work in the federal government are black women, women of colour in roles across different industries. The roles that seem to be being diminished are roles in. That are inhabited and the incumbents are largely black women or women of colour. So there's. The data would tell you that if you talk with some of these black women, they will tell you that also in some cases too, some are just opting to, to just drop out because of the kind of. What we were talking about earlier about that, that the feeling of, you know, I. I feel marginalised. It's impacting my, my psyche. It's impacting my health. It's not worth it. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna. I need to just stop and I need to leave and do something else or leave this environment. So there's also that aspect as well. Many the, the articles and the things that I've read sort of talk about the data and then they talk about how some of these women have been feeling that have opted to, to. To just make a decision that this isn't the place for me and I need to leave for the reasons I talked about. But one of the things. So there's the. There's all of those things I think wrapped up together. But one of these things, one of the things that I will tell you that I believe is true is what we're seeing with black women. It's like the canary in the coal mine, because it's the tip of the iceberg. What you see happening to black women is just a. For of a foretaste of what's going to happen in the economy and generally to everybody. And it's sort of, like I said, a canary in a coal mine type type thinking. And I've seen articles, I've seen articles and heard, you know, different news talk shows and things like that where they talk about that and they talk about it from a historical perspective, but that's saying that, you know, what happens to the minorities in the country is sort of a pre telling of the way the country's going to go and it'll be happening to everybody. And we're starting to see, at least in the United States, starting to see that in other countries as well. Because back in 2024-2024-2025-2024, there were a lot, there was like overwhelmingly large amount of countries that were having elections. I think it was like in the 80s and for whatever reason it was just a large number in one year. And there those, those elections, the outcomes of those elections, there was a large percentage of them where they hired in government officials that were more conservative. And so you see that, that there's this pendulum that swings, right? And whenever there is a rise in social activism like we saw in 2020, then all of a sudden the pendulum starts swinging to conservatism. And that's kind of what we, what we saw with all of the elections in 2024, what we've seen in 2025 in many, many, many countries. And so now in, you know, history says that there's going to be a pendulum and it's going to swing back again too in future years. So that it's just, it's just sort of this historical anomaly that, that just happens throughout the world. And so, you know, that's why I think that we have to pay attention to what's happening to women of colour and start saying, okay, how do we prevent this from happening holistically, not just to them and what do we need to put in place to help black women, but what do we need to put in place to help overall as well? Because this is something that it's leading us down a path that isn't good for this particular country. Who's next then?

Joanne Lockwood: Is it, is it more around the low paid workers? Is what we're losing hospitality we're losing. She's a government workforce. And the symptom is that here, that in this particular case black women, women of colour have filled those vacancies and never progressed to higher echelons or more skilled work. We're looking at it and AI and all these kind of technologies here where traditionally that's not where black women and women of colour have gravitated in their career trajectory. Yeah, there's definitely.

Celeste Warren: That's absolutely true, Joanne. And whenever I'm talking with especially university students and different groups, I always tell folks from a career standpoint, understand your discipline and what's needed not today, but five and Ten years from today, where is your discipline, your industry going? What are some of the changes that are going to be happening? And understand that and then how does that translate to skills and capabilities that are needed and you go after those skills and capabilities because you know, think about it, there, there are jobs that exist today that five and 10 years ago did not exist at all. You know, social media,

Joanne Lockwood: marketing, Uber driver, you know, they just didn't exist, did they?

Celeste Warren: Influencers. Influencers, yeah. YouTube influencers.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, they didn't exist. They just didn't exist. And so the world is just

Celeste Warren: changing and so you have to try to stay ahead of it and that's really, really critical. And you're right. AI, Artificial Intelligence, you know the coin coined the phrase is AI going to take jobs? And it's like, no, it's not going to take jobs, all jobs it's going to take. It's going to replace people who don't understand AI and how to leverage it in their jobs. But you're absolutely right, there are certain industries and certain disciplines that people of colour, women of colour don't migrate to, but that's not because they don't have the intelligence to be able to migrate to them. There are a lot of different barriers in the STEM fields that, that get in the way of people of colour, especially women of colour being able to, to get STEM field, to get into STEM field that start early in education. Yeah, I was going

Joanne Lockwood: to say the issue here is going back to someone who's, when they're five or six years old or even back to before the parents conceived them. Yes, to try and educate the parents on how to inject aspiration into their future offspring and how to nurture them to want to succeed and remove those psychological self imposed barriers of limiting mindset that many people grow up with. It's almost like we're going to start that education process now for future parents to bring to their future children. And in the, in the education systems the teachers, you know

Celeste Warren: that right, wrong or indifferent, they have their own biases. And when Sally raises her hand versus Joe raising their hand to answer a question, you know, there are all kinds of studies around early bias in early education that starts in, you know, boys being encouraged for math and girls being encouraged for other, you know, thing English or whatever. There's all kinds of studies around that have been around for decades. But it starts, you're absolutely right, it starts with the parents, it starts with the teachers. It starts early, early on in the systems to be able to rectify those gaps that you see, in these different disciplines as adults, so we use the. Phrase DEI is broken. We see the

Joanne Lockwood: rhetoric going on by our political leaders around the world, not just in one particular country. How do we rebrand dei, diversity, equity and inclusion, so that it's more understandable? Because I think it's become kind of a toxic phrase, it's become kind of a misunderstood, a misquoted motives have been misquoted and misunderstood. How should we relaunch the essence of what DEI is in a way that the people who only have one rock can understand? Well, I am not a

Celeste Warren: proponent of rebranding it. I'm more of a proponent of helping people to understand it in a way that makes sense to them. And like I said, meeting them where they are because, you know, the way that I look, the way that I in this, again, this is the world according to Celeste. But the way I look at it is you are. If you're offended because I'm a black woman and you say to me, well, I don't want to call you black woman, can I call you something else? And my answer is no, I'm a black woman, I'm proud of being a black woman. How I identify. And no, you can't call me something else. Put another label on me. You need to understand me for who I am and what I bring to the table. And that's kind of how I feel about diversity, equity and inclusion. I don't like using the acronym DEI because it has been bastardised, the acronym. But when I say the words diversity, when I say differences in people, when I say the word inclusion and inclusive society, where everyone feels a sense of belonging and feels valued for who they are, however they identify. And when I use the word equity, which basically is Management 101, Leadership 101, Business 101, meeting people where they are understanding those differences and then helping them to remove obstacles and barriers that are getting in the way for them being able to have access to opportunities that everybody is has a right to have. When I explain it to them in those very simple, pragmatic terms, then the light bulbs go off. And I think at that point it helps people to understand what it is, what diversity, equity, inclusion truly is. And so, you know, I just think it's just confusing people and you try to call it something else. Oh, and by the way, this too shall pass. Because, you know, a lot of this is this anti diversity equity inclusion rhetoric. A lot of it is, again, it's part of that, that pendulum, if you will, that keeps swinging Back and forth and I say, you know, maintain, help people understand, help people to see the benefit in it. Help people to see that when we do it right, everybody is going to win and it'll be be something that can be done for everyone. Absolutely, Celeste, absolutely.

Joanne Lockwood: You're right. And we shouldn't have to apologise and change the names of things to make them more palatable to somebody else. We even have to over explain. But you're right, we're in a world now where we've got some challenges and DEI is as important as it ever has been and will continue to be. We need to work on that. So how could people get a hold of you? We've had a fantastic hour and a bit together. I'm sure other people want to engage and have a chat. So how do people get ahold of you? Well, you can reach me on my

Celeste Warren: website, crwdiversity.com or you can reach me on LinkedIn. Celeste Warren, she her. Or you can reach me on Instagram, crwdiversity. And they're all interesting ways to stay engaged with me. And I say interesting because I'm a little bit less, I'm more engaging on Instagram and LinkedIn. And you know, when you put your contact information, your email and in my website, then we can engage there as well. So please, please. And also too, the book, the Truth About Equity, what it really Is, what it isn't and why everyone wins when you get it right, is on Amazon as well. So if you want to continue the conversation and educate yourself a little bit like we talked about, pick up the book and, and I'd love to hear what you think about it. Well, I'm

Joanne Lockwood: going to dive over to Amazon right now and take a look, see if I can find it. Is it, is it just on hard copy or is there a Kindle or is there a audible? There's audible as well. Audible as well. Ah, my favourite. So when I take our puppy for a walk, I can, I can listen to you in my ears as I'm going for the walk. That's what I do. Absolutely. Well, I'm going to do that. I'm going to head over there and spend one of my credits on it. So let's do that. So let's. Thank you so much. Thank you. I've enjoyed talking with you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude, gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to Jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.