---
title: "Fear As A Superpower"
episode: 210
date: 2026-05-22
guest: "Dr Gwen Patrone"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/210-fear-as-a-superpower
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-210/audio.mp3
---

# Fear As A Superpower

In this episode of Inclusion Bites, Joanne Lockwood speaks with Dr. Gwen Patrone about fear, resilience and the process of living more authentically. Gwen describes how military training, professional experience and personal reflection helped her learn to slow fear down, analyse it and repurpose it into strength rather than letting it control her. The conversation also explores Gwen’s lived experience as a trans woman, including dysphoria, identity alignment, family support, social acceptance and the challenges of navigating legal and medical systems in Florida. Joanne and Gwen discuss the importance of authenticity, self-acceptance and refusing to live split lives, alongside the loneliness and social pressures that can affect trans people. A major thread throughout the discussion is the value of small acts of kindness, micro-validations and human connection. The episode closes with practical encouragement for people questioning their gender, and for those supporting them, to show tolerance, compassion and respect rather than judgement.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Inclusion Bites: Conversations for Change
- 10:18 — Calm Under Stressful Situations
- 11:13 — Domesticate Fear Systematically
- 17:54 — Identity and Fluidity Conversation
- 23:56 — Rediscovering Authentic Self
- 28:46 — Overcoming Loneliness and Gratitude
- 32:37 — Breaking Misconceptions Through Connection
- 38:40 — Avoiding Travel to the US
- 44:30 — Building Resilience in Life
- 49:38 — Letting Go for Growth
- 54:57 — Kindness Changes Lives
- 58:50 — Flirty Cooking for Couples

## Key takeaways

- Techniques for slowing down the fear response and analysing situations rationally rather than being overwhelmed by emotion.
- The concept of domestication—training fear much like one would train an instinctual response in animals, so it becomes a source of energy rather than a hindrance.
- How repeated exposure and desensitisation, as practised in military contexts, can help individuals run towards, rather than away from, the things that scare them.
- The continual expansion of comfort zones: breaking through “terror barriers” and discovering that perceived limitations are often thinner than imagined.
- The critical importance of authenticity, self-acceptance, and the value of bringing one’s whole identity—rather than living a double or hidden life.
- Why social connection, micro-validations, and paying authentic compliments support the mental health of those experiencing gender dysphoria or difference.
- The role of allyship in fostering inclusion: seeing beyond initial perceptions, offering tolerance in its truest sense, and taking small actions to lift others up.

## FAQs

### What does it mean to use "fear as a superpower"?

Using fear as a superpower, as described by Dr. Gwen Petrone, refers to developing the ability to see fear not as an inhibiting force but as energy that can be understood, slowed down, and repurposed for growth. Techniques such as analysing one's reactions, learning to desensitise oneself through repeated exposure, and adopting a calm, rational approach in the face of fear allow individuals to harness its energy for clarity, strength, and personal development.

### How does Dr. Gwen Petrone's background influence her approach to fear and resilience?

Dr. Gwen Petrone is a former US Marine sergeant, author, and coach. Her military experience, particularly in high-stress technical roles, provided rigorous training in managing stress and fear, enabling her to remain analytical and unemotional in crisis situations. She has reflected on this training in her work, applying the same principles to help individuals, especially within gender-diverse communities, reframe and manage dysphoria and anxiety.

### What is the "pressure valve technique" and how does it help with managing dysphoria?

The pressure valve technique, discussed by Dr. Gwen Petrone, is a self-regulation strategy for those experiencing dysphoria or intense internal pressure. The concept likens dysphoria to steam building within a sealed system; without an outlet, this pressure can lead to harm. By finding healthy ways to "let off steam"—such as expressing one's authentic self in a safe context—individuals can reduce internal tension and avoid emotional explosions.

### What role do authenticity and social acceptance play in personal wellbeing?

Both Joanne Lockwood and Dr. Gwen Petrone highlighted that authenticity—the state of embracing and expressing one’s true identity—is crucial for mental wellbeing. Social acceptance supports this, but finding self-acceptance and being authentic relieves internal conflict and the exhaustion of masking one's identity. The clarity and peace that follow enable individuals to thrive.

### How is fear related to gender identity and transition?

For many gender-diverse individuals, fear often centres around rejection, ridicule, loneliness, or losing emotional connections. Dr. Gwen Petrone describes the journey through barriers of fear as one involving repeated encounters—each time the individual expands their comfort zone and builds resilience. Social fears, such as not fitting in or being accepted, can be profound but are often not as daunting as anticipated once action is taken.

### What insights does the episode provide for people questioning their gender or supporting others?

People questioning their gender are encouraged to be patient and allow self-discovery to unfold at its own pace (the “law of gestation”). Finding community through support groups or peer interaction can be life-changing, allowing space for exploration, questions, and validation. For allies, the recommendation is to show tolerance, offer micro-validations (small affirmations), and to see the whole person rather than just their gender or differences.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 210 with the title Fear as a Superpower. And I have the absolute honour and Privilege to welcome Dr. Gwen Petrone. Gwen is a former US Marine sergeant, author and coach who supports gender diverse people to transform fear, anxiety and dysphoria into strengths that shape resilience and self belief. When I asked Gwen to describe her superpower, she said it is her ability to see fear in slow motion. I love that. And repurpose it from something that debilitates into something that creates strength, clarity and growth. Hello, Gwen, welcome to the show. Hey, Jo, good to see you. Good. I'll say good morning

Dr. Gwen Petrone: here in Florida and hi everybody. Still good morning here in the uk. So

Joanne Lockwood: we're both the same side of the midday at the moment for another 10 minutes. So Florida, the Sunshine State, is it, is it sunny there today? It is currently sun

Dr. Gwen Petrone: coming up, so it'll be sunny soon. Thank goodness. It's so cold out right now. Cold is all relative. So our whole country is going through a big deep freeze over the last week. But in Florida, you know, it warms up a little bit, so. So I love it. I used to be in New York City. So all the, the winter and the cold and the snow and the northeast kind of stuff, I got over that after so many years. I just said, I'm getting out of here, I'm going down south, I want to be warmer. Oh, 35 years in New York. I moved to Florida about five years ago. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: because I remember being in New York in, in the November time. I think it was just after Thanksgiving one year and I was surprised how bitterly cold it was. You know, the, the wind that whistles through the skyscrapers, the just the temperature and considering was it New York is south of Paris. It's, it's, it's quite a way south even from the uk. It's a lot colder than I was expecting. Well, what happens is you have.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: New York is very vertical, right? Yes. So if you get the wind in just the right angle, it' just shoot down the corridors of the streets, whether it's the avenues or the streets, and it'll pick up speed and just focus. Right. It's a big wind tunnel in certain areas. So yeah, I used to like to walk around Central park, which is really very beautiful and many, many times. And you get that, you get that wind because it's over there. There's no building. So it'll, it'll just pick up speed and get a nice breeze. So.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I mean, it's like the Pogue song, isn't it? Fairytale in New York at Christmas time. It's a very magical city at Christmas with all the lights in the trees. And the, it's, it's Christmas time and. Thanks. Living time is

Dr. Gwen Petrone: beautiful. Except about an hour after it snows, then it gets dirty. Yes, it gets dirty real quick when it's snowing and, or icing or whatever. It looks really, really, really beautiful. And then you have Rockefeller Centre with a tree and, and all the lights and all the, the shopping and it's, it's a magical time. But as you say, you're

Joanne Lockwood: in Florida now. And my memory of Florida was back in, I think it's 2004, when I, I took our family for a standard Disney experience, Universal Studios. I remember my biggest memory of the time was the humidity was the first thing that really struck me. But also the lightning, the thunder and lightning, the fault lightning, the power of that nature that was going on overhead. But you must

Dr. Gwen Petrone: have gone in July or August or something. It was, it's probably July time.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. That's brutal. Yeah, June, July, August is not fun over here. But all the

Dr. Gwen Petrone: other months are great. Yes. I have a twin sister and she would go and have her family there and her daughter and she was the grandma so she had to watch all the kids. And so she was designated to do that. She says not doing that anymore. Not doing that anymore. No more. I'm the babysitter and it's humid and her and I, we don't get moist, we sweat. So it's just, it's just like, you know. So she says, no more in August, no more in July. Grandma, don't do it. Us

Joanne Lockwood: Brits, we perspire. Yeah. We perspire, we don't sweat. Yes,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: right. Profusely, yes. So

Joanne Lockwood: as I was reading out your superpower and I comment on the bit, seeing fear in slow motion, and that conjures up this vision in my head of that scene in the Matrix where Neo has finally grasped who he is, what the Matrix is all about. And he's now able to now cut through all of that kind of social construct and the. When, when was it Mr. Anderson fires a bullet at him, he's able to see it in slow motion as the ball holds it and stops and able to freeze time. Is that the metaphor that you know, that that creates for you as well? Yeah, it, it's, it doesn't. Normally you

Dr. Gwen Petrone: don't have something like that. It's. And this is really cultivated when I went into service and I was in the Marine Corps, is they, they. And that's what my, my book Dysphoria Hacks is really honing in on, is the lessons learned from that and then how you can desensitise yourself to certain things. So this way you don't do what it's expecting you to do. And then you can freeze time and slow it down. So this way you can see things that would normally scare other people or frighten other people and remould it to your purpose and thus use it as a positive. And thus I say see things in slow motion. And that comes very handy in sports. I was always very good in sports. Muscles. Soccer, baseball, football, everything. Everybody's freaking out and running, really. And I would see things in slow motion. I'd like looking and I'm scanning and making decisions when other people are freaking out. And then they're like, how did you do that? And. Well, because you have a. You calm down and your mind is calmer. And then the business, business arena. As a CEO of my own company for a few decades, people freaking out and everything, and you're seeing things come. You don't want to get too high or too low and you want to make rational decisions based on overall the common good of the company, so to speak. And so that's what I mean is seeing things in slow. The slow motion is you learn, analyse the situation, see what's really happening and then you understand what's happening to be able to repurpose it to your. Your purposes. Yeah. So being a Marine sergeant, do you

Joanne Lockwood: see active duty? Yeah, well, I, I was in. During a

Dr. Gwen Petrone: time that it was like right in between different things that were happening. So I didn't see action, but I was in a technical field, so in, in cryptographic electronics. So I jokingly say if I told you exactly what I did, I'd have to kill you. So I don't want to do that. But yeah, it was, I was, I did electronics on cryptographic machines that were coding and decoding and sending messages and all that kind of stuff. So I was, I was in a bunker, you know, or a, you know, four foot metal bunker where people couldn't get in. And when they trained us on all that stuff, we, they wouldn't let us take notes or anything, you know, because they didn't want anything getting out. So we would learn and then it would have to leave everything there and then, then we can go out and back to our, our place where we were staying. So it was pretty secretive.

Joanne Lockwood: So were you utilising this equipment or were you supporting, maintaining and designing it? I was supporting and maintaining it, yeah. Yeah,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: I made sure it worked if something went wrong, that I was able to go in and do electronic stuff to be able to fix it and. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: Sort out circuit boards and recalibrate and. My background's electronics. I was in the Royal Air Force in the UK as a electronics engineer working on radars and radio and airborne stuff. Well,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: it was funny that we, we were working on, we were using. On older machines that were using tubes and things like that and they never wanted to really get rid of it because it worked, it worked really well. And, and some of the electronics in today's age, they can hack and so on and that type of thing. They really couldn't do that. So they kept them around for whatever purposes. So if something would break or, you know, a tube would, would burn out or something, I have to be able to research that where's it coming from, where's it going and be able to try to scope out and get that part that may not be readily available, that type of thing. Yeah, it's very interesting.

Joanne Lockwood: Those analogue error. Not susceptible to electromagnetic pulses and the like, are they? They're very resilient. Exactly. So it came in handy for

Dr. Gwen Petrone: whatever purposes they wanted it for. So usually it was setting coded messages and, you know, whatever secretive things they did. And I really didn't get into that stuff. I just had to make it work. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I remember my time with it recognising that some of the voltages on that valve technology is 3,000 volts or something, or 3 kilovolts on the anode. And you think that burns if you touch it?

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah, it's like clear. It is.

Joanne Lockwood: And the capacitors are holding massive charges, aren't they? You've got to be careful you're not electric yourself off a capacitor. So, you know, sorry, we're diving off into the wrong direction. So coming back to being able to use this as a resilience, as a strength and slowing down so that you can really observe what's going on without your chimp brain or your amygdala kicking in, you want to bring this into your prefrontal cortex where you really kind of understand what's going on. How did you, how did you. Was that the military that taught you that or was that a kind of a life, life lesson you learned as you, as you grew?

Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's funny you mentioned that because it's, it's, I would say the military magnified that. But I had that type of personality where in any kind of stressful situation, the best way I can explain it, and it comes in handy for certain situations and it's a pain in the ass for other situations if something stressful would happen. The way I feel is I'm in a shower and the water comes over me and this is emotion, right? The water comes over me and I feel it leave my body and it's like, it's like all the emotion rinses off and I go calm, relax, and I feel nothing, right? So I get very unemotional and I get very analytical. So it's like I have a entrepreneurial business brain and I have an artistic brain. Shocker. So I kind of have both. And I've learned more now to turn it on and turn it off. But back then it was, it was just happening. And in the, in the Marines, it allowed me to focus in on that. And I, later on in life, when I wrote my book and fine tuned it a little bit more, was, I call it domesticating fear. So it's. We talked about earlier dogs, right? You domesticate the dog where you try to get out the instinct of the dog. So this way it doesn't just run for the car or it doesn't just do something and you, you kind of get that out. And that takes systematic and long term training to be able to do that. And then you also do that to fear. You can systematically get what you don't want in you, out of you, and more control it. It'll always be there, but you control it. So this way it's not a master of you, you become a master of it and then you can repurpose it to your advantage. So, and I say many Times in dysphoria with people, trans people such as myself, is. It's a pressure that builds up in you and through whatever your trigger points are, whether it's misgendering or it's a situation or it's whatever. When I first started dressing female, it was a pressure that I feel and I had to let it out. I just had to let it out. And that was the dysphoria inside of me getting like that. And now it's. I call it in my book, I call it the pressure valve situation. The pressure valve technique, where it's like a plumber. You have to let the steam out. So you have to have a valve to let the steam out. Otherwise it builds, it builds, it builds. And then you hurt yourself or you hurt other people, right? Because you. And you explode, right? And you don't want to explode. You got to let. You got to let it out, and you got to let it out in the right situation. So this way the pressure goes down. And then I would dress female, I would feel so much better. And now it's like the pressure was gone. So people can use that in certain situations. And that was one of the reasons why I really wanted to write that book, was I wanted to help people. And that there's so many people who commit suicide that hurt themselves or hurt other people. And if I could just save some lives. Lives. Or have them get control of that issue that they're going through, then it just makes it all worthwhile. While for me to be able to do that. The same thing with veterans. Veterans. As many as 6,000 veterans a year in the United States commit suicide. I was shocked that the number was so high. And because they can't deal with the PTSD and all the other pressures. So that's another project I'm working on, is to be able to help them. How do you deal with that? And using those techniques to deal with that as well too, to allow them to diffuse that and to be able to calm and make better decisions. Most. Most humans, in my understanding,

Joanne Lockwood: have a fear of the unknown, the fear of next. That's the biggest debilitator, isn't it? This unfounded fear. This. And people are worried about, anxious about being humiliated, being rejected, being all these things. And you know, as you. As you put it there, one of the big challenges of people who have gender dysphoria, agenda, diverse or not, does. Don't conform to the stereotypical version of what's expected, have this fear of unwrapping themselves, taking the COVID off and showing the world who they are. And it could be really insurmountable that. That barrier to doing that.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Oh, it's, It's. It's a ve. You know, it's. I don't want to diminish it because it's a big barrier, but once you cross it, you're like, oh, that wasn't that bad. Is that. It was like,

Joanne Lockwood: paper thin. Yeah, it's like paper. I was like, is that it? But there's the

Dr. Gwen Petrone: barrier. Once you break through, I call it the terror barrier. And whatever your terror barrier is, once you break through that, you're like, oh, I feel so much better. But then there's another terror barrier, and it never goes away. It's always there. You're just expanding your comfort zone. You're domesticating that fear, and you're domesticated further and further and further. So one of the techniques that you do in the military is you do it. You keep on doing something so that this way you desensitise yourself to it and you run. You can run toward the fear instead of a waste. Whatever scares you and whatever happens to be, if you can do it little by little. And so one of the things that I do all the time is like, okay, have I done this before? Does this really scare me? I want to do it because it's going to allow me to expand. So then if I. If I'm in another situation, then I'm like, wow, if I. If I did that, I could do that. And that's. That's what we call the stoic philosophy, too. Stoicism, if you've ever followed that. Well, the. The philosophy of stoicism is do as much of what scares you. So this way, when something else happens, you're like, if I did that, I could do that. So. So these, all these techniques are universal, and we just kind of put them together to allow people to get a handle on it. Yeah, but it boils down to it

Joanne Lockwood: is what are you scared of? Is it rejection? Is it this? Is it the other? And what other people think? That's a big one. I think from my experience and personal experience and the people I've met and known before, is that. Actually, one of my friends said this to me. He said, you can't have your cake and eat it. You have to make a decision. If that's what you want, that's what you want. You can't have a foot in every camp and hedge your bets. At some point, you have to decide because the people around you want to know who you are as well. Because if you're not careful, what you end up being is indeterminate. And people need, in our human society, they need to understand who people are. They want to put you in a box somehow. And people appreciate that. They want you

Dr. Gwen Petrone: to be authentic, right? Yeah, they want you to be authentic. And right now the Internet is so, I mean, AI is really cool, but after a while I'm like, I feel duped. I feel duped. Like, like, oh, that's an AI picture. I thought it was really cool at the beginning. And then after a while I'm like, you know, I feel like I'm being tricked a little bit, and I want authenticity and just, just let it out. Just, just be you. And I'd rather see that and all the bumps in the warts and all of that kind of thing. I'd rather see that than, than have something look perfect. But it's all fake, right? Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I'm with you on that. I, I, I didn't transition about 12, 13 years ago, if you want to put a mark on it. And in those days, there was less face tuning and editing, and Photoshop skills were, were not as advanced. I mean, today I see people who have forensically or AI altered their photos and their images. Be yourself. Be yourself. Because otherwise, when you go out in the real world, when you go and meet people, I have to come out each time. Whereas if you're just publicly you all the time, there's never, there's no two versions. And I remember thinking to myself, I didn't want a gender transition to become somebody else. I wanted to come gender transition to become myself and one version and not have 15 versions of me, just have one version. So if I'm massaging how you see me online, I'm, I'm faking it again. I spent 40, 50 years faking it. I don't do that anymore. Yeah, and so many people,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: they see like a little bitty clip of somebody and they think that's their whole life. It's really not. But I went on a, I like cruises. So I went on a cruise just a week or two ago, and a lot of business people, and we joint venture together and talk to people, and I talked to someone, two or three people, and I had one of those aha moments because I, you know, I never hated being a guy. I enjoyed being a guy, but I really, really enjoyed being female. So for me, it was more of a fluid type of thing. And for many people, they felt like myself, they felt like there were a female in A male body, and they just gotta get out. And that's fine, because everybody's different. I felt more of a yin and yang, where the Most. The first 60 years of my life, the male side was more dominant. And then after that, the female side became more dominant because that's. I fed into that and I rediscovered Read and I. And over those years, I was pushing my male side away because I wanted to be Gwen and have her bloom. And he says, listen, you can be even more powerful, stronger, better, a better person if you embrace the positive sides of your male Persona into your female Persona, and you become that much better. So you can become a unicorn. You're. You're blooming as a female, as close to female as you can be. And. But you're also taking the attributes of the. Of your male self that you like, like, and now you become even more than you could separate. And I was like, wow, okay, that makes a lot of sense to me. And so, because I was trying to escape my. My life as a guy and said, I want to be female, and I'm just trying to get into this. This life and change. Change my name and do the female stuff that. Everything we do. And I said, well, you know, I did, like, some stuff as a guy, and I. I did have some very strong, strong things that I did as Peter. And then I can bring that over to be female. And so many people can use that one. Storey, I'll tell you, is that I saw an interview of a Olympic downhill skier, and he was pretty good. And he said, listen, I'm gay. And he never told anybody. And he said that limited me because, like you said, he was hiding from everybody. And see what he was straddling two worlds. So you're almost like, separating yourself and, like, you're saying being authentic and being yourself. And he said, once I told everybody, it released that burden from him, and it became so much better because he didn't have that weight on him all the time. And such as people like ourselves or anybody that wants to be authentic, be yourself. People appreciate that. And yes, you're gonna shed some people that don't want that, but you're gonna gain so many more people that appreciate that. Yeah, I think we said it earlier that people like authenticity.

Joanne Lockwood: They like to know who you are. Our social constructs work better that way. And also, you yourself have one voice in your head. One identity, one thing. Okay, we wear different hats in different situations, but I spent much of my life with two conflicting halves of my head trying to have different conversations. One of the things I found when I aligned was my head became really, really quiet and one, one voice, one thought, one me. Whereas in the past I've always had these two elements. And that was the biggest notice to me. The silence I had in my head was incredible. And the clarity that I had allowed me to go, whoa. This is my Matrix moment when I go, whoa. I see the world clearly now. I'm not trying to double think everything. I'm not trying to go, oh, should I say that? How am I thinking that? What am I doing now? I'm just me. And it's incredibly powerful. And you don't have to gender transition to do that. You just got to find yourself. But you have the male and a female and one's more dominant

Dr. Gwen Petrone: and the other one becomes more dominant. But then you're. You have the most separate. Put it like that, and you merge them together and then it's like, it's like it becomes in focus. Like you said, the Matrix happens, right? And you can see clearly, oh, this is what's really happening. You could do that and combine them. At least I combine them. So many people want to totally separate, which is fine. And that's for other people's. Hey, whatever, Whatever floats your body. If you're gender fluid, you have no fixed sense of gender,

Joanne Lockwood: then it may well be that those elements of your identity never mix. They stay disparate potions. And you're able to bring them in and out of focus as you need to. And if you can exist that way, that's absolutely wonderful. I just found that it would just bend in my mind. I was losing it. And have you seen that Disney Pixar film Inside Out? We've got the little characters in the girl's head. And that really was the metaphor of what I was feeling. The little angry character, the little angry red character was driving my head for most of my life. And then suddenly Joy took over and I went, this is me. Joy is now driving my brain. Everything is orientated around the joy. The female character, if you like, not the little angry red man. Okay, the little angry red man. All anxiety and fear, all those other things still in my head. But Joy is the driver. It's a feminine Persona. And that kind of really, really struck me when I was watching that film. That's so true. And I

Dr. Gwen Petrone: never thought about it. But there's some people around me here, they know me and they've seen me as a guy and they've seen me as Gwen and they've seen the years of evolution that I've had. And they said, you know, as a guy, we like you, but you're very reserved and you're quiet and you don't. But as Gwen, you're like. You're almost like you, like you. And I said, the only way I can explain it is as a guy, I see things in black and white because I'm reserved. As a woman, I see things in colour. I just bloom and my personality comes out more. I'm more bubbly, I'm more interactive with people. It's just like I release. Everything's released and I become more authentically of who that I feel that I am. And then I pick a few things that I like as a guy and I stick it in there, you know, use it as I see fit and then to enhance, so to speak.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. The other thing I figured out back in those early stages, about 10, 15 years ago, was trying to define who I was again. I think for so many years, I tried to aspire to a stereotypical view of femininity, or probably one that I'd held in my head since my teens. And then I realised that I was chasing this ideal that the world wasn't really embracing. And I realised most women I knew were running the other way as I was running that way. And I thought, hang on a minute. I need to park myself here for a minute and actually figure out who I am, not figure out my. The stereotype. And that really helped. I. I started acting my age. I was 53 at the time. I thought, hang on a minute. I'm not 19 anymore. I don't have to do this, I don't have to do that. I can be. I can wear jeans, I can wear slacks and trainers, and I can, I can not bother putting my bra on one day if I don't want to. You know, I can be like every other woman out there. And when I realised I didn't have to live by rules that I'd invented in my head, again, it simplified that vision for me. Just, just to go, it must be me. Did you. Have

Dr. Gwen Petrone: you. Did you know your entire life, or was it something that more. You realised later on in life? We're, we're not too dissimilar in age. And, you

Joanne Lockwood: know, you look back in the early 70s, there was no, no language to describe it, but no something there. Yeah, I, I,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: when I was 12, 13, 14, 15, I would look at a. Because I'm very heterosexual, so I would look at a woman, I'd be like, she's gorgeous. I want to do her, you know, hormones, right? Then I look at her, I'm like, I wonder what it's like to be her. Wow. I wonder what it's like to be pretty. And I would find it fascinating to flip the script and to put myself in that situation. And I did that for a number of years. And nobody's home, and I'm putting on female clothes. And I was looking for that. I was searching for that feeling. But in the 70s, nobody to talk to, no Internet, no way to find out anything. And I. I'm like, okay. I feel alone. And so then I told you my personality happened was that I compartmentized it. And I just shut it off and I. I forgot for 45 years. Didn't remember. And when I was 59, my wife at the time, we. We're still married 35 years, and she says, we're gonna go out for Halloween. I'm like, okay. She says, I'm dress you female. And I'm like, why? Because I didn't remember. And. And that's after the Marines, right? I. I didn't remember. I'm like, why? Then she dressed me female. And I'm like, I was really nervous. I had such a great time of like, wow. Why did it. Because I coach people too. I'm like, wow, what did I have a good, great time. And as a coach, a mentor teaches what they know. And a coach pulls things out of you that's already there, and they ask questions. So I'm asking questions of myself and I'm peeling the onion. I'm like. And after about an hour, I'm like, oh, my God, I forgot. I forgot. I used to do that. And so that lit the fire again and re germinated Gwen, that was already, like, she was sleeping. She was there, but sleeping. And so fast forward. Then little by little, and now that Gwen started to overtake the male side. And then after a number of years, I'm like, you know, I'd rather. I really want to be female full time. And then I just took the next. I went over the red line, so to speak, versus just cross dressing, and the rest is history. So I feel. I feel me, the new me. So that's kind of how I see it. Yeah, I don't think I was ever

Joanne Lockwood: sleeping or away, but I was able to function in the other direction as a male Persona for 30, 40 years. Have family, have kids, get house. Stoicism, that drive to provide that expectations. And then in my 40s, I guess with the advent of knowledge and familiarity and understanding and meeting other People I realised that my storey was in there and it needs to be told. And I was lucky. My wife was and still is supportive and we've been married for 38 and a bit years, 40 plus years together, a couple of kids. So yeah, I've been very fortunate that I've able to move on in my life with the love and support of people around me. Yeah, me too. We've been married 35 years together

Dr. Gwen Petrone: and I count my blessings that she said, listen, I know you, I love you, I know you, we're going to die together. And that you are you and you evolve. But this is a presentation of how I feel inside. And she's okay with that. That's beautiful. I appreciate, I appreciate many, many people, they don't get that luxury and people just feel like adios and they're gone. I, I write a lot on Facebook, like really long stuff because I like to write. I wrote one piece that says, it just says the word of the day is lonely and because when I go out and if I meet other trans people or gender non conforming people, I talk to them because I'm trying to get information and for maybe ideas for writing stuff and they're like, they're stunningly beautiful and they're like, listen, I, I can get sex anytime I want because many, many people, they want the fantasy of being with them and they said, but I can't, can't get a boyfriend because they don't want to be seen in public with them. So they have so many people around them, but they're so lonely. And that's why I said, I count my blessing because I have my family and my wife and, and so on, and then I have that blessing in that area to be able to have that. But that, that loneliness is a big thing to try to overcome internal loneliness, you know? Yeah. And that

Joanne Lockwood: fear, that barrier, that fear at the beginning, it's that fear of being alone and being lonely is, is real, you know, the fear of losing everything. Yeah. It's not losing the material things, it's losing the emotional things, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I live, I live here in Florida

Dr. Gwen Petrone: and for five years I don't think I've met one person, one trans person like myself. I don't bump into them at all. So I have to go to events that we go and congregate like friends that I know online that I see and we'll go to an event, either we'll go to a cruise together or go to go out to a dinner Together or we'll go to an event like there's one coming up next month in Pennsylvania. There's like 500 people. We just go, we just take over to town, right. Pennsylvania, and just able to physically touch other people that think as you do and that are like you and like, oh, I'm not alone. Right. And that kind of sets you off at least for the next year until you can do that again with other people. So that connection is vitally important to be able to connect with people, even if it's for dinner or just go out shopping with someone or have a lunch with someone. It's, it's important for that human connection with other people. I figure that is often we're quite different from people who

Joanne Lockwood: are from the LGB spectrum because they tend to find that people who are gay or lesbian, they want to go clubbing, they want to go to same sex or same gender events a lot more. But I don't crave the environment, the queer, the gay environment, because I crave everyday life. I crave CIS world, hetero world, whatever it may be, because I've not orientated myself around my identity in that way. I just want to get on and be like everybody else. So I don't feel that same allegiance to a flag or to a club or to a, to a, to a movement. I just want to be accepted for being Joanne, the woman who goes shopping, who goes to work, who does this and does that. But you're right, I do have this need to have some close friends who I, who I see not regularly, maybe twice, three times a year for dinner, for lunch, or if we bump into each other or do have a good natter. But I don't feel the need to segregate myself into a trans space.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: I do the same thing. I do the same thing. I want to connect with them on occasion, but I don't necessarily have to. Being trans is not who I am. It's just part of me. I look, it's what I call normal trans. I call it normal trans, whatever that means is this. I want to be a good neighbour. I want to be assimilating to society. Someone doesn't see this, they just say, oh, you're just Gwen. And like when I go on a cruise, a lot of times I have people that look at me, they look at my wife goes, they're looking, they're staring at you. I'm like 6 foot 5 in heels. I don't blend, say, gwen, don't blend. And eventually I'm in the hot tub or they're in the hot tub. And it gets around to talking, talking. And it's my opportunity to get them to ask about me because I want to tell. I want to talk to them, and I want to shed misconceptions for people. And inevitably it always gets down to, wow, you're nothing like I thought you would be. And what I thought you would be is always something that's driven by the media, because how often do they really meet someone like me? And so what their misconception is driven by other things, and usually that's not good. And because the media is usually driven by clicks and eyeballs and money, so they're showing the fantastical parts and sometimes not the good parts. And the 95% in the middle that want to be good people and be us and be good neighbours, they don't see, and they're like, wow, you're actually pretty funny. Wow, you're actually pretty nice. And they got to know me, and then we're joking and we're laughing and having a great time, but we get to loosen up together. So next time, when they meet someone such as myself, they cut them a break. And they don't kind of judge as much as they may have before because they met me and they're like, oh, okay, she was pretty cool. And so, you know, changing perceptions one person at a time is one of my goals.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And it's. That's actually quite a burden, though, isn't it? Feeling responsible for being the best version of you. To represent not only yourself, but other people who've fit into the category that you fit in and not letting down the side. That's a big responsibility for anyone to adopt, isn't it?

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah, it is. I mean, you want to be yourself and you're responsible for yourself, but you also have a larger responsibility for the community that you live in. You want to leave a good mark to other people. So, yeah, that's. I try to do that as much as I can, and I do that through how I carry myself. And I mean, when I go out around where I live, there's. I like. I like live music and I like, like to go dancing. And so we go out and a lot of people and my friends are. They're like, you go where you go there. And it's a very cisgender place. I mean, it's like almost like cowboy R Truckers kind of thing. And I'm like. I'm like. And. But it's one of the things in psychology is. Is you tend to get more of what you think about and what you anticipate. So if you go in anticipating problems, you anticipate negative things happening, getting misgendered or getting ticked off or whatever, you're going to get more because your brain sees that, because it's what it's looking for. So I go in to any situation, I look and I looking for the good in people first and I expect to be treated well. And I go in with confidence and I go in with a smile and I laugh with people and it brings down the walls and they just, they treat me totally different because I, I break that, I break that ice barrier. So this way they're like, you're pretty cool. And so I never have any problems anywhere. I go with people. Plus I'm pretty imposing. I'm, I'm not small, so I could probably defend myself with people, but I don't go in looking for that. And if you carry yourself in and you go in with confidence and you go in with a smile and you're expecting to be treated well, and so I am. You look at the media, your media, our media, this side of the

Joanne Lockwood: pond, global media, there's a lot of misinterpretation, a lot of misrepresentation, a lot of myths, a lot of stereotypes that are amplified, as you say, for eyeballs, clicks and revenue. How is day to day life? I would imagine on my side of the pond that Florida is one of the worst places in the U.S. i mean, it's all relative. There are lots of places in the US that are probably as bad or different. But is day to day life positive and okay for a trans woman as yourself? Yeah, I've been here for

Dr. Gwen Petrone: five years, never had a problem, and I'm in a 55 or older community, never had a problem. Now, it's not to say that everybody's going to invite me over for lunch, we're not going to braid each other's hair. But they smile and say goodbye morning and everything. So superficially they're cool. But that, but in that community in Florida, there's people from all over the United States and internationally that come and they retire over here. So there's, there's an older population and they're from, they're from all over, not just Florida. So I'm going to get people from all varieties of people. So in our community, I don't think there's any trans people, but there's some gay, lesbian couples and so on here, not many, but a few, and people from all walks of life. So I get Everything. So see, I'm, I'm a talk of the cool of the pickleball court. I'm like, you know, whatever, you know, but when I, when I go out, it's, you know, some of the clubs over here are very. What I. They're very deep red. They call it red. Yes. Yeah, deep red. I'm like, you know, I don't care. I just, I see, I, like I said, I see people. I judge them based on them first and I judge them based on energy, how I feel around them and, and I don't put myself in bad situations to, to worry about it so much. Um, and I, I decide. It's important to decide where you're going to plant your flag and, and fight to the death and what's not worth it. Sometimes something I'll get all the time, I'll walk up and someone and some out of a knee jerk reaction, they'll go, oh, thank you, sir. And I'm like, okay, that's not worth planting my flag on. Right. It's just, I look at it as, that's human reaction. I'm big. I got man hands. Okay? I'm big. My voice, you know, and they make these snap decisions and then after they look and they're, oh, thank you, ma'. Am. And they change, you know, because they made it, they made that snap knee jerk decision and you cut people a break. I just cut people a break. And. But when someone's trying to be a, how I was going to put it, a dick about it.

Joanne Lockwood: Dick. Yeah. You know, that's when I get pissed because I can tell,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: you know, so, so. But that luckily happens very, very rare. And you just decide where you want to plant your flag. So. But I find that most people, the vast majority of people, and even in Florida, they just want to live and let live. They want to, they want to be. They want to live and let live. Just don't impose it on them, whatever it is, you know, just don't oppose them. Just live and let live. You know, you have your life, I have my life. We can be friends. We're good, we're cool. That's. That's how I find most people are living their life.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I mean, as a Brit, you know, I used to do work from time to time in the States. I'd do a conference, I go and speak out there. I'd host a, host a conference or something. But in the last year I've made a decision that it's probably not the best place for me to come because is it that bad? You know, it's the tsa. Is the immigration. Are they going to look at me and go, I don't need passport? You know, they're going to cheque my social media out in advance and go, you're not the kind of person we want in this country. There's a hell of a lot more risk now than ever used to be.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. I have not changed my driver's licence and my passport yet. When I go through customs, they're like, looking. They're like. And then they kill somebody over. And they go, is this really the same person? Because I look really different. Is that really the same person? I'm like, yes. I'm like, not today. So. And I joke and laugh and they're like, okay, you can go through. Finally, before I went on the cruise, I actually went to change my name and everything. So I'm waiting on court dates and all sorts of stuff. I think that'll help bring everything more into focus. I get a kick out of it. It showed my licence and my passport and they're looking at me like I go into vote or something. And I'm like. They're like, yeah, I've been lazy. I haven't gotten to it yet. I mean,

Joanne Lockwood: is that still possible? I mean, I was under the impression of. And that Florida was one of the places where they were revoking driving licences, where you changed your name or it didn't align with your. Your birth

Dr. Gwen Petrone: is the. The male and female part. It's supposed to be assigned at birth. So if you're a male at birth, you can't be female. But you can change everything else. You just can't change the male or female part. When I went to Fort Lauderdale, which is below where I live in Naples, I went to get breast augmentation. And Dr. He's freaking unbelievable. He's great. And I went for a second procedure because I wanted to get bigger. And I just snuck in and I was referring people because the guy's so good. He's like one of the world's best, best doctors in that area. And he said, we can't do trans anymore. And he's not because we don't want to. It's because the hospital won't take your ID if it says mail on it, do that. Do that specific operation. He said, we love. We love you guys and our staff and everybody loves it. And I do them all. I've been doing that for 20 years. I just can't do it anymore because of the recent law changes. So I snuck in at the last minute and then the law changed. Wow. So, yeah, if I went in now and my licence said M instead of F, they wouldn't be able to do it.

Joanne Lockwood: That's a real impact, isn't it? I mean, it's not just about being blocked from a toilet. This is now denying you a consensual operation. But that's standard insurance for me. It's like if

Dr. Gwen Petrone: it says M, it says F. I know internally who I am and it doesn't, it's not a big deal. But for something like that, it's a big deal. Right. And so if I wanted to now, if I wanted to go do it, I couldn't do it in Florida. I have to go somewhere else or I'll take a medical vacation and go to Thailand or Turkey or someplace, you know, and, and have it over there. But yeah, that's. So that's when it gets more much. I'll say a challenge to do that. I mean, all my ID

Joanne Lockwood: is, is F, top to bottom. I. I couldn't. I can't. I can no longer prove who I used to be in any shape or form. I've got birth certificate, passport, driving licence, everything about it. I want to tell you I was born in

Dr. Gwen Petrone: New York, just outside New York City, and I looked up on one of the AI bots about changing birth certificates and everything, and they're like very much more progressive over there, so they don't really have a big deal about it. So I'm going to see if I can change it over there and then bring it to Florida and then show it on my birth certificate and then change my licence and, you know, my passport and see what happens. I'm still not. They probably not do it because it's. It's not what your birth certificate says. It's assigned at birth, which is two different things. Yeah, right. So

Joanne Lockwood: they've now clarified that that mark is assigned at birth, not assigned at birth.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. Who you are today. Right? Yeah. And, yeah, I'll try. I'll see what I can do. And, you know. Yeah, but if it says, you know, I know who I am and I'm not going to worry about it, you know, so I'll. I'll. I'll go like this. I'll be okay. It's nice to have a. But I think, I think it's what you're saying

Joanne Lockwood: just now about it's not a flag, it's not a hill you want to plant your flag on. It's not a hill you want to Die on, is it? Yeah.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's not something to plant my flag on. Yeah. It's. You're not getting

Joanne Lockwood: your driving licence or your passport every five seconds and seeing that and getting a problem with it. I mean. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't affect me day to day. Just as you say, if you're going through immigration, it has the wrong gender marker on it. It's. It's dysphoric, it causes dysphoria and it would to me, but the times I show it, it matters not. And it's only if you're being denied something, as you said. I think the impact is being denied surgery or other situations where that letter is preventing you accessing something that's necessary. Yeah. That's

Dr. Gwen Petrone: where it becomes a much bigger factor. Like, I go to some pride centres on occasion on certain nights of the. Of the month, and they have younger people, I'd say 15 to 25 there, and they're going. Thinking about or going through transition or whatever. The. Just the common thread that I see with all of them is some. Like when I was in the Marines, I call it, I developed a spine. Like, I got tough, right? And just things just bounce off me and they don't. Don't. They don't affect me that much. But when they would speak about their life or what's happening to them, they're all on medication, they all have some kind of a mental issue or they perceive they have a mental issue or they have Tourette's or they have something underlying and everything devastates them. So even if they're misgendered, it's like crushing, because they don't have. I call it a spine, right? And you have to get. Eventually you have to go in where the. Where the broken glass is to develop toughness, so you can deal with the broken glass later on. And if you avoid and you try to go in safe spaces all the time, you don't get that toughness to deal with life, you gotta deal with life. And they're young and they've been avoiding all this stuff throughout their young life. And so now everything crushes them. So I do thank being in the service that provided that to me, to be able to be in that era tough like that. And so with the stuff that I come out with now, I try to help them to develop that toughness again, to decide where you're going to plant your flag and what's going to affect you, what to let go and what to. What to keep and have. Have more of a rational decision about it so this way you can let it go if it's not there and not hold onto it and be like this. And we also live in a noisier world, don't we?

Joanne Lockwood: With social media, we're judged online keyword warriors. The news, the polarisation, the polemic debates that are around all the time. It's hard, it must be hard for a young person to develop that, as you say, that stoicism, that resilience, that bounce back ability. Because resilience you have, as you say, you have to push to understand that it doesn't matter. The next time you push, it's not so bad. You can expand, expand, expand. But if you're constantly in a bubble where people go there, there, don't worry, we'll talk about it together, we'll support each other. But you're never really testing those barriers.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: You can see a little bit of the other people's life and at that age social acceptance is like oxygen for them. It's like oxygen and it means so much to them and there's very, and their brain is still forming and so on and they're, they're easily influenced and that's why many countries, I think Australia and I think France just did this where they, they just say young people from a certain age below, they don't even get, they won't get let them on social media. Yeah, Australia just passed

Joanne Lockwood: 16 and we talk about in the UK as well too. Yeah, it influences their

Dr. Gwen Petrone: mind so much that they won't even let them on. And it's become a big problem with learning in school because even with learning in the United States they're like, oh, every, every kid gets a laptop and they thought that was helping people, but it's really. People are getting more stupid because they're letting machinery do the work and they're not doing critical thinking in their brain to solve problems themselves. Everything is going through the machine and it's not going through you. And so you're, you're increasing on one side, but you're decreasing the human element of, of critical thinking and actually using your green matter, your grey matter up here, you know, that's starting to be a big problem that the one, one thing that though is helping is really hindering. Yeah, no, I get that. Yeah. The power of

Joanne Lockwood: rhetoric, the power of debate, the power of considering other people's perspectives and opinions. So busy polar opposites. And it's really hard to be in the middle, isn't it, and see both perspectives and be equanimity, equanimity it's part of the matrix.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: It's what the algorithm does. It makes everybody polariz. There's a show, if you have Netflix, called the God. I can't remember what it is now. It'll come to me. But it goes into that problem with the algorithm and how it. It polarises society because it gives you more of what you want and not the other stuff. So you don't get a chance to see both. You see one and the other one sees one and they go like this. And so you, like you said, you don't able to have debate and just compromise and everything. And still they just go like this. And that's what's happening in society quite a bit now. Now. And

Joanne Lockwood: it's not just a bit of that. It's actually that those magnetic poles repelling each other. It's getting worse and worse and worse over time. Those opinions are drifting further and further apart and you become entrenched, you become wedded because your whole community, the people you hang out with, everybody you talk to believes the same thing as you do. And it's pushing everyone apart and. Yeah, yeah,

Dr. Gwen Petrone: exactly. Even the centre ground to people who

Joanne Lockwood: are on the extremes looks extreme from that perspective, you know, because I could be in the middle of those views and I look polar opposite. It's crazy. We can't even meet in the middle anymore. There's no middle.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. Everybody has to be right. There's no compromise. It's like I have to be right at all costs and I'll defend myself to the death just to be right. And there's, you know, no possibility I could be even a little wrong. No, compromise isn't a thing anymore.

Joanne Lockwood: But that's the framing, isn't it? It's about being right or wrong. We've lost the ability to see that. Well, actually, it's just my perspective, it's my view, it's my belief, and I have a right to be right. It's like, hang on a minute, that's free speech, isn't it? Being right. It's trying to teach people how to be accountable for those views as well.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Yeah. One of the things that I learned over years of leadership and perspective, and I used to speak about leadership quite a bit when I did on stage, is in order to, as people and human beings, the purpose is to grow. We want to grow and get better. We just don't graduate from school, spike the football or hit the soccer ball and you're done. Right. And you don't grow anymore. The whole purpose is to grow, to get better, to get better, to get better. But if you're full of whatever you think is right, there's no room for anything else. So you have to have the knowledge and the willingness to get rid of old things and old thoughts and beliefs that maybe don't service you anymore. So you make room for the new stuff to come in that have maybe been updated, that you're like, oh, I never thought of it that way. But now there's no room for that, right? Because you just overflow and you're pissed off on everything because you have no room for any kind of concept anymore, maybe even old things that you. Old beliefs that you've cherished so long and maybe don't service you anymore. And you just have to be able to let them go because they don't service you anymore. So you have room for new concepts, new ideas to grow as a person. And there's a book was written in the early 90s by Wallace Wattles called the Science of Getting Rich. It's much more than just the title, but he says we all deserve to be rich. And he's not necessarily talking about rich in money terms, but he does talk about that. But it serves its purpose so that this way it allows you to access life experiences that you would never be able to access if you didn't have money. So you can become a better person, experience, travel the world and see new cultures, new ideas and become diverse and be able to see, wow, there's more beyond the pond, there's more beyond America. And the world is such a big place. And I can go to India and Thailand and see, oh, my God, the cultures are crazy good, they're so cool. But you would never know. And you couldn't access that if you didn't have the money to do that. So the purpose of the book, I call it literary artwork. It's a beautifully written book. It's short, really small, but. But to allow your. The point is to really. Life's purpose is to grow and to be able to gain more knowledge and new information and more experiences to become better as you grow and not just spike the ball. Fabulous. Okay, I'm guessing we're going to have. I'm going

Joanne Lockwood: to be really stereotypical here. Two types of listeners listening to us in this conversation. We're going to have people who are maybe questioning their gender, maybe they've or have questioned their gender, and people who haven't. So let's just think about the people who are questioning their gender. They may be living in a state of flux Maybe they're not sure about themselves or maybe they've got their shit together and they've sorted it. So what advice would you give people that you're coaching and mentoring when they're in that vortex of confusion and uncertainty and not knowing how to go forward? Where would you encourage them to go? If their

Dr. Gwen Petrone: questioning is to not is to. Don't deny it. But I described the female side of me, inside of me as a seed. And there's what I call the laws of the universe, gravity and different things. There's one called law of gestation. And that's everything gives birth in its own time. And so you have, if you plant corn, you know, in a certain amount of days it's going to germinate. You just don't dig it up after a week and say, well, we don't have corn. I'm going to plant cucumbers. You know, it's going to take a while to germinate. So gwen took, took 60 years to germinate inside of me and bloomed at a certain point. And if you're questioning your gender, you, you, you have these two parts inside of you, this yin and yang that you're playing with. And whichever one you feed more is the one that's going to dominate. And it's okay that if you have male on one side, female on the other side, and you're in the middle, it's okay to be in the middle, right? It's okay to be, hey, I want to be male this day or this week. If you know perfectly fine. Other people are more polarised and they want to, they want to gravity more or the other side. There's so many of the spectrum, as they call it, is. I would say embrace it, but think about also you have to think about your life, your finances, your relationships and the collateral damage. Nobody wants to think about that. Friendships, love, lives, all this type of thing that you have to think about as well too. If I do this, what is, is what may happen and anticipate. But to. If you're, if you want to explore more female or more male, then find meetup groups and other groups around you that you can talk to. That was one of the things that, that helped me when I first started coming out and dressing was just around Covid time. Just before that, I found a meetup group in New York and they would get together once a week and we would talk and they would answer questions for me that I never had 50 years ago, 40 years ago. And we'd have, they'd have A kitchen and food and cook. And I was able to meet my people, right? And they were able to help me to explore this. And if I didn't have that, I don't even know if Gwen will be here today because I would just be alone. I don't know. Or maybe she would have bloomed another five years from now. So I guess it's a long winded answer to your question. Hopefully I answer that. No, it's a good answer. And finally then,

Joanne Lockwood: would you. What would you offer to people who are trying to support people who are exploring their gender feeling dysphoria either as a loved one, a friend, a colleague, even a stranger in a bar? What would you offer them as some guidance for them? Tolerance is much more than tolerating

Dr. Gwen Petrone: people. As long as they agree with you. So many times people, oh, I'm so tolerant, but if you don't agree with me, you're dirt to me. That's not tolerance. Tolerance is being able to accept people as they are and to be able to see them for the essence of the person that they really are and how they're presenting. And like I said, I judge people by energy, not so much the initial perception. And to go a little bit deeper with the people. So this way you can. Everybody needs to be cut a break once in a while. And if they're angry or something, or you're kind of rubbing like this with them, hey, did they have a bad day today or something? You don't know the backstory as well. So cut them a break, deal with that and be able to treat them as they are. Even compliment, compliment, you look great today, or I love your hair today, or I love your clothes today. Even something like that, you never know. Even something little like that because you don't know their backstory can change a person's life. There's a storey of this world renowned speaker called Nick Wojciech. He has no arms and no legs, right? And he would go to school and he would get ragged on, ragged on, ragged on. And he. And, and he said to himself, listen, if another person comes up to me and just insults me and stuff like that, I'm just gonna kill myself. I just can't deal with it anymore. And then this girl came up to him and she goes, here he goes, here comes. And she goes, nick, you're looking great today. And that just really. And that made him feel so much better. Even one compliment. Cause you don't know the backstory of someone's life. Give them a compliment, smile to them Give them something good, even pay it forward. I'm on a line paying for food. I'll pay for their food or something. Just pay it forward. You know, what's a few dollars? You know, it's not gonna mean anything to me, but it might be something great to a senior or to somebody else that you do that for. Be kind to people and people appreciate it. Yeah, I often describe that as

Joanne Lockwood: micro validations. Just those little touches, that little. I see you, I'm smiling at you, and this is going to make you smile back. Just those little things. Exactly, exactly. That's a short way to put

Dr. Gwen Petrone: it, but you did great. Yeah, I love it. I love your nails. Or.

Joanne Lockwood: Wow, you look great today. Oh, that's a lovely dress. Just something or just smile at someone. Hi, honey. How are you doing? Anything that is. You don't have to draw attention to someone's difference or something. You just want to go, you look great. Nice one. Yeah. That's all you want. And if it's a trans man, you can say, wow, man, you're looking buff today. Love you. Love it. Love your guns, whatever it may be. Love the cannons.

Dr. Gwen Petrone: Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, no, it's. That's a

Joanne Lockwood: beautiful way of putting it. Thank you. So, Gwen, it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you for the last hour and a bit, actually, we've been yakking away, how can people get hold of you? What's the best way? Have you got a book? And what do you want people to do? Yeah, well, I kind of hinted. I don't

Dr. Gwen Petrone: know if you could see, it's a little bit backwards. Dysphoria hacks. Yeah, but it's Dysphoria hacks. If you go to dysphoriahacks.com, you'll see the book there. There's also a companion book. So Dysphoria Hacks is the philosophy that I talked about, about diffusing anger, fear, and you don't have to have just a storey. It could be that you're afraid of. It's going to help you combat that and know what it is and how to work with it. And then there's a workbook in it. I call it. Well, in the Marine, we have a saying. It says Semper Fi. We say semper fi all the time, so it's called Semper Fi to Semper Femme. And it's the workbook that goes with that. And you have an option of getting that as well, too, if you want to. And that goes a Lot deeper into different things for people. Very affordable. It's all digital. They can go get it there eventually be on Amazon, but not yet. And if they want to. Want to contact me, I'm on Facebook all the time. I write a lot on Facebook. Really deep, long stuff. It's just Gwen Patron. It's like the tequila patron, but you have to add an E at the end because I'm a little spicy. I'm a little spicy. And. And you can, you know, contact me on those. Instagram, Facebook. And I'm also. I also love food. So I'm a foodie and I'm starting a cooking channel. Cause I used to be in the restaurant business and I love to cook and culinary and. But it's how to. How. How. Using food as energy, but romance. A little bit flirty, a little bit sexual. And the channel is called Culinary and Cleavage. Culinary and Cleavage. So I have a lot of fun with it. So I have a lot of liberty with. With it. My recipes aren't just recipes, but it's. It's like. Well, you'll see it. You'll see the recipe. When I get to. They're. They're there. But I'm gonna start doing the recipes in the next week and you'll see that. And I'll dress like very suggestively and all different things. Just. I want to make cooking fun. Not too serious, very flirty, very suggestive. But to bring couples together, to enjoy the process of cooking together and. And bring couples together there or to go enjoy the process of cooking. So I'll go and I'll go shopping for food, look at different things and I'll be describing. And I'll video that and I'll have bloopers on there and all sorts of stuff. So. Because that's my personality. Just I love to be goofy and. And. But yeah, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, culinary and cleavage. I think you'll enjoy it. It'll be fun. Fun. Wow.

Joanne Lockwood: I. I've just checked you out on Facebook. I just found your Facebook page. And I'll put all the details in the notes. Okay. Are you. Are you on LinkedIn at all? Or is it mainly Facebook, Instagram? I'm not on LinkedIn. I

Dr. Gwen Petrone: never went on LinkedIn because I will be on there soon. But I never went on there because I never legally changed my name. So I didn't. I just didn't feel comfortable doing that yet. But I've all the paperwork submitted waiting on my court date, and once that happens, I'll be on LinkedIn as Gwen Petrone. Fabulous,

Joanne Lockwood: fabulous, fabulous. Well, well, I do encourage you to, if you're listening to this, to cheque out Gwen's websites and the book digital offering, drop in on Facebook. I noticed we've got 10 mutual friends on Facebook, so I have a ping you a friend's request and maybe we can keep in touch. Yeah, I already posted this morning. I said

Dr. Gwen Petrone: I'm on doing a podcast right now and I put your name tagged you on there as well too. And so once this airs, I'll post it again. So

Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fantastic. So, Gwen, thank you so much. Thank you, Jo, thank

Dr. Gwen Petrone: you so much. Thanks, everybody. As we bring this

Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.