--- title: "Inclusion That Actually Sticks" episode: 209 date: 2026-05-14 guest: "Susan Drumm" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/209-inclusion-that-actually-sticks audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-209/audio.mp3 --- # Inclusion That Actually Sticks In this episode, Joanne Lockwood speaks with leadership advisor Susan Drumm about what it takes to make inclusion truly stick inside organisations. The conversation focuses on blind spots, patterns of thinking, and the way leaders can widen perspective through curiosity rather than resistance. Susan explains how tools such as the Enneagram can help teams understand differing motivations, balance cognitive diversity, and make better decisions. She also explores the role of language, psychological safety, and voice equity in helping people speak up and engage more openly across differences. The discussion moves into the impact of music, neuroscience, and self-awareness on shifting beliefs and rewiring unhelpful patterns. Susan shares examples of how people can recognise limiting narratives, reframe them, and create more empowering habits at work and in life. The episode closes with reflections on leadership, authenticity, AI bias, and the importance of staying grounded in one’s own judgement while remaining open to others. Overall, it is a practical and reflective conversation about inclusive leadership, team dynamics, and long-lasting culture change. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Inclusion Bites: Spark Change - 04:37 — Superpowers and Blind Spots - 07:11 — Curiosity Unlocks New Perspectives - 12:33 — Seeing and Addressing Team Gaps - 13:44 — Better Decisions Through Diversity - 19:20 — Authenticity Over Illusion - 21:35 — Transform Leadership Through Music - 24:25 — Navigating Workplace Conflict Dynamics - 29:19 — Leadership Patterns and Emotional Cycles - 30:49 — Empowering Change, Breaking Limits - 35:53 — Type 4: Purposeful Creatives - 40:43 — Enneagram Applied: Growth Framework - 43:17 — Discover Your Superpower Quiz - 44:50 — Name Theory and AI Music ## Key takeaways - The invisible patterns and team dynamics that shape both blind spots and superpowers, and why recognising them is essential for inclusion. - How curiosity, rather than resistance, unlocks growth and widens perspective in navigating differing viewpoints. - Ways to embed inclusive language and habits that defuse opposition and foster psychological safety. - The use of frameworks like the Enneagram to uncover motivational drivers, reveal gaps in team perspectives, and assemble genuinely high-performing teams. - The value of cognitive and lived-experience diversity for better decision-making—beyond just visible characteristics. - Harnessing practical tools such as music and reframed internal narratives to break limiting beliefs, accelerate growth, and shape inclusive leadership behaviours. - Why future-ready leadership relies on empathy accuracy and compassion in a world of increasing automation and inauthenticity. ## FAQs ### What is the main theme of this episode? The core theme is how inclusion can be embedded in organisations so it truly “sticks”—moving beyond surface-level action to create lasting changes in culture, performance, and belonging. Susan Drumm and Joanne Lockwood discuss practical ways to help teams build trust, encourage every voice, and develop habits that foster true inclusion. ### Who is the guest on this episode and what is her expertise? The guest is Susan Drumm, a respected leadership advisor and coach. She specialises in harnessing diversity for enhanced performance by developing inclusive habits, spotting “invisible patterns” in teams, and translating neuroscience into repeatable behaviours for leaders. ### How do blind spots affect inclusion and team dynamics? Blind spots are the perspectives, motivations, or behavioural patterns leaders and teams overlook. Susan Drumm explains that individuals develop expertise by focusing attention in certain areas (“superpowers”), but inevitably neglect others. Inclusion flourishes when teams recognise these blind spots and value the input of those who see things differently, allowing for more effective decision-making and innovation. ### What are the Enneagram leadership styles, and how do they relate to inclusion? The Enneagram is a psychological and behavioural model identifying nine leadership style types. Each type has a superpower and an associated liability, reflecting core motivations and blind spots. Susan Drumm uses the Enneagram to help teams understand cognitive diversity, identify missing perspectives, and ensure more balanced and comprehensive team functioning. ### How does curiosity support inclusive cultures? Curiosity is highlighted as an antidote to resistance. By actively seeking to understand others’ viewpoints—instead of clinging defensively to one’s own—curiosity opens the door to more inclusive conversations and helps people see beyond their default assumptions. Language and approach matter; inviting dialogue versus arguing strengthens psychological safety and inclusion. ### What role can neuroscience play in developing inclusion that sticks? Neuroscience underpins much of Susan Drumm’s approach. For example, the Enneagram’s patterns can be observed in the way the brain forms habits through experience and socialisation. Music is also referenced as a neuroscience-based tool—it can be used intentionally to ‘rewire’ thinking, interrupt negative patterns, and embed new, empowering beliefs about self and others. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 209 with the title Inclusion that actually Sticks. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Susan Drumm. Susan is a leadership advisor and coach who helps organisations turn diversity into everyday performance by embedding inclusive habits that build trust, voice equity and that lead to better decisions. When I asked Susan to describe her superpower, she said that it is spotting the invisible patterns that quietly run teams and translating complex neuroscience into simple, repeatable habits that help leaders widen perspective and make space for every voice. Hello, Susan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure. We were just chatting away there in the green room before we pushed the record button and I think you said you're in Arizona, is that right? That's right, yes. I live in Scottsdale, Arizona Susan Drumm: and it's at the time that we're taping in the. We like to say we have eight months of heaven for four months of hell when it comes to our art. Yeah, so you are. It's got cold Joanne Lockwood: snaps as well. Like right now. It is truly heaven. Susan Drumm: It's, you know, I'm trying to think celsius, but about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. And so just beautiful, beautiful spectacular weather at the end of January where the rest of the country seems to be in a freeze over, but then we pay a price in the summer where it gets blasted hot. And although I. The idea is if you have the flexibility like I do to leave during those months, then you're best to depart during those four months of intense heat. Joanne Lockwood: Dusk. Yes, yes. And we can have storms that run Susan Drumm: through around that time as well, you know, very heavy rains and then it would be dry. So. Yeah, called the monsoons. Yeah, I really Enjoy it here because I think I'm. I lived in the northeast most of my life, the first portion. And it was. I just don't do well with living in winter. Very. And I did also, by the way, live in London for two years. Love that. But I'm addicted to the sun. It just makes me happy. I want to be in a place where the sun is shining every day. And sometimes people say, well, don't you miss the change of seasons? And I was like, no. If I want to go be in snow, I'll go book a holiday for five days, you know, in a ski resort and get some of that and then leave. Pop up to Aspen. There's plenty of places with mountains and Joanne Lockwood: things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice. If you can live Susan Drumm: in two places, it's ideal because you'll get such incredible weather whenever, when everywhere else doesn't seem that way and then go off when it's, you know, more inhospitable. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I think as human beings, we think we're chameleons and can see 360 degrees, but we can't. We have a central vision and a peripheral vision. And where we point our focus of attention, that's what we see. And we get very good. We usually develop patterns about what we want to look at and that becomes a bit of a superpower because we get so good at looking that direction and studying that and understanding that. But there's something behind our head we can't see, and that's our blind spot. In some of the models I use, they very clearly show where your superpower lies, but where you kind of maybe have a liability you're not as familiar with. And I, I like to use models that are more inclusive in general that show that there's someone else looking in that direction by their very nature because of what they pay attention to. And so if I'm arguing it's blue, it's blue, it's blue, and you're arguing, no, it's green, it's green. The model starts to show why that's the case and how actually they're your best friend in terms of growth because they're looking into the area where you may not see what's possible. And so I think when you talked about the superpower is for me to really help people see their patterns and self imposed limits that are inherent in who we are and start to widen that gap to shift their perspective so that new opportunities for growth, for success become available to them. Yeah. And. For sure it definitely Starts to take this, you know, for some, more rigid than others. Right. It's like slowly chipping away at what people believe is possible. Exactly. And you can, even more powerfully, if you can, build the team that's accounting for your blind spots and recognise that the person that triggers you is probably the person that you have the most growth to learn from. There's something there. And so that's why I help people see the map of that and they can start to see how this person actually can be beneficial to what they're trying to accomplish in the world. Yes. That alternate. If you're not careful, Joanne Lockwood: you grip. Yes. Because you're worried about all these things. Yes. Susan Drumm: Yes. And it's almost. My sense is there's. I mean, there's even more gripping to the belief, but anything you resist, you give it power and you give it more power. So I don't think our answer is sort of more resistance. I don't see how that's been working out for us. It's sort of the. I feel like the answer is curiosity and like, let me. Let me understand that perspective and let me look from that. And what aspect of this could I incorporate or what gift could I give because of my superpower, looking in the other way? And it starts to. I think the only way you get there is for people to start to recognise where that blind spot is, that they have it and where it is, and recognise that the gift that you bring to someone else is looking in their blind spot, but they also look into yours. Yeah, I think, because, you know, anytime I hear, like, that's the way it is, like, I want to be like, is it. Is it the way it is? Um, and I. And I would say we can, if we approach it with curiosity, on different perspectives they get. Joanne Lockwood: One challenges them to. Without. Right, right. And Susan Drumm: a lot of it is we're not really trained with language. Even that's inclusive. Like, you know, you can say, that's really interesting. Here's how I've looked at it before. What do you think of that perspective? Right. That's very. Inv. Language versus. Yeah, but what about X, Y, Z? Right. And that's what it's like. The energy of that exchange. Then we'll have. Like I said, you bring resistance. The other person gets more resistant in their point of view and then that's when you start to have the breakdown. Yeah. You entrench in your. In your opposites, Joanne Lockwood: don't you? Right. Yes. Gosh, it's. It's. This is Susan Drumm: the work of our times. Right. Now, you know, and so there's different ways to go about it. I mean, sometimes picking the most divisive conversations are probably not the place to start. Like, I think we need to build skillset in having easier conversations first and opening our aperture, then work up to the more difficult ones. And so when I think about teams, when teams are working together, starting to learn, like what. Why that person is always throwing, let's say, a wet blanket or cold water over your idea, what are they actually motivated by? What are they actually looking to do? Because you're interpreting their behaviour through your own motivations and your own type filter, we would say, and getting curious about what they're. You know, we make up reasons for why people do the things they do, but that's based on our own drive of motivation. Right. The transition between how people can become more curious and engage in these types of conversations. Because we get stuck. Joanne Lockwood: Get stuck in our. In groups. Yeah. There was a Susan Drumm: wonderful video. I think it was actually designed to be a commercial and I think it was Heineken, believe it or not. And the idea was that you could bring people with very polar views together over a beer to actually get to know each other as humans. And it's a very powerful storey. You can find it on YouTube at. Worlds Apart. Do you know? Joanne Lockwood: Have you seen this? World's Apart? Yeah, Yeah. I use up my training courses sometimes. Yeah. Worlds Apart. Yeah. Very powerful. Yes. So that's. This Susan Drumm: is exactly what we're talking about. Right. And so kind of coming without the preconceived notions. And what we actually find is we have more in common than we realise. Right. And I think that that storey highlights it really well. Yeah. And the solution is. Joanne Lockwood: Right, right. Tolerant. Whereas if you're just more likely to be. Yeah, yes, it's. And also, if we approach. Susan Drumm: If we approach the conversation with. I want to get you to understand my point of view, then there's an inherent resistance. Nobody wants to be sort of told what to do. Right. Joanne Lockwood: Actually, I want. No, but if I just said. Okay, that's. I think that's. I think a lot of the things that black. Susan Drumm: Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that. And so in order to help people understand their patterns, there are a couple different ways we go about that. Two modalities in particular that I've found to be really powerful. One is working with the Enneagram. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Have you ever talked about it on the show? No. Go for it. Okay, great. Danny Graham is a powerful model of the way we use it in our work is that you have. There's nine different types of leadership styles and each have. They're based on what you're motivated to look at. Right. And each have a superpower and each have a liability that comes with them. And the model is very powerful because it's a systems model, so, meaning it's showing the interrelationship between the nine different styles and how building high performance teams can happen when you have the right combination or diversity of these cognitive viewpoints, how people think. And so that's a really powerful tool because first of all, people understand their own process of, gosh, yeah, I have developed this superpower to do something this way and this is what I'm motivated to look at. But now I can also see what I don't see behind my head. And you gotta create that opening first, such that then you bring the team together to say, and look at that person, Charlie, who happens to look in that. And I see now why I can't see what they see, but how it could actually benefit me. And that's part of the process and the magic of that understanding and then realising, like, we've got some leadership style types that are not present on the team and we don't even have that representation of the way that person would think or the types of questions they would ask in doing that work. So I think with that type of backdrop, this is where we get teams to be higher functioning. So that it's not to say, okay, you absolutely have to hire for every single, but recognise where the gaps are, that what's present in the team and have someone do their best to sort of play that part. Right. What are the types of questions? Let's say you're missing the loyal sceptic, which is type 6 on your team. Then you don't have that counterbalance. Everything is like full steam ahead, full steam ahead. You don't have that counterbalance to say, here's the potential drawback, how are we going to mitigate for that? So you will need to, with your team, make sure, before you make a head decision, like we're going to take 15 minutes and look at what if this goes wrong, because we don't naturally have that person on the team that does that. But we know we need to take some time to look at that, as hard as it is maybe for the types that are on the team to do so, we've got to do that so that we make better decisions. And what I find is then that the best teams are cognitively diverse teams because they're representing these different perspectives and they're making better decisions as a result. So that's. The Enneagram is one big thing. That's one way to do it. And then some actually do look for, you know, when we make our next hire, let's look for somebody who seems to have that skill set. Joanne Lockwood: If you haven't got. Yes, that's exactly right. Susan Drumm: So particularly for teams, that's why I've found the tool to be really powerful. And what's great about the Enneagram is no one owns it. It's an open source model that's been developed, you know, some would say definitely over decades, some would say even centuries. You know, they're actually finding deep connection with neuroscience related to this. So I, I recently was involved in a course called the Neuroscience of Change and they did an entire segment just on the Enneagram and starting to understand how the brain formulates and gets kind of grooved into one of these nine types. And a lot of it, of course has to do with upbringing and what we. Things happen to us. Right. As we socialisation. Yeah, yeah. What we make it mean typically falls into nine different styles. And so that, that was very exciting to me because there's real neuroscience behind looking at the world in this way and, and so, but it also allows people to recognise in themselves that they don't have all the answers. And that's the way you start to get curious about like, well, you know, I don't have all the answers. Let me, let me ask some questions about people who see the world differently. So I, I find it's a powerful model for people to, to start to open up their curiosity. Yes. You know, there's, there's another assessment we use that is looking at your internal experience under conflict or stress and in relationship with another person. And two of the dimensions that it's measuring. One is empathy accuracy. Do I. Am I able to understand what your perspective is? But another dimension is empathy, compassion and do I care? Right. Am I able to understand your perspective and am I actually willing to care about that perspective? And so, wow, what a model for people to start to see. I would say like the psychopath is the one that is very. Understands what you want but does not care. And so these two skill sets, I believe, are going to be absolutely 100% critical the more AI becomes handling anything on the logic side of the equation. The skills that are uniquely human, which are empathy accuracy and empathy compassion, are going to be needed more than ever. Joanne Lockwood: To whatever it comes out with or challenge it with soul. Yes. Or, Susan Drumm: you know, it's kind of interesting. I find that it's also baking in trying to be empathetic, but it's inauthentic. So I don't know if you've played around, but it seems to be very agreeable to whatever I say. Right. Which is why we've developed our own AI capacity that focuses specifically on leadership development under models that have been. We've been used for over 20 years. Right. In the field. We know what works and we're also not going to agree with you on every little thing that you say. And I worry about that from a perspective of AI. If it's always sort of like. That's a really good point. Like all the time. That it's further reinforcing our unwillingness to listen to others because it keeps reinforcing that whatever we believe is right. I remember that's the addictive quality of it. Right. It's sort of like people want to be told like, you're absolutely right. You know, if I might put, like, is my boss, you know, a jerk for doing X, Y, Z. And yes, he is like, you know, like it's almost hardwired to agree with you because that will keep you coming back. But we've got to recognise, like there's a slippery slope with that. Yeah. So. But not a lot of people do that. They're like, show me where my thinking is flawed here. Let me. I mean that's not a. People want to be right and they want to be proven right and they will use AI to prove themselves. Right. And AI will comply. Analysis always kind of, to me. Right, Right. For sure. Look, there's some really. I. The what. The reason we're embracing it as well is because. So people can engage with the content more 24 7. So I think there's powerful opportunities here to leverage AI in the right way. I think it's also just to be careful of your own bias towards wanting the answer that you want and it giving you that. Yeah, it's. I think today authenticity is going to be the currency for a new tomorrow. Really? How do you tell what's real anymore? I mean, it's so easy now also to create your own footage of things. Grok can make that happen. I just saw some really wild things where it can make a still image come alive and make it do whatever you want it to do and it looks incredibly real. So I think, you know, people's own intuition is going to be where you have to start to rely on versus what you see. Or what you're told, right? Yes. Is the reality. Yes. Yes, it is definitely. Like, we've got to kind of come back to ourselves in a way and start building that intuition questioning, as you're saying before, like, am I. Am I being manipulated and stirred up for someone's purpose or not? Your team. Yeah. What I've seen, the leaders that have been able to do that are as referring back, deeply connected to their own, let's say, you know, inner wisdom, inner confidence, inner strength, inner. They know themselves well. And I think there's a lot out there to help distract you from knowing yourself well. But you only know yourself well if you actually take some time to go within and make that pause to do so and helping people get back to themselves. And you are your best guide, and you can be curious about what's going on externally. But I think if we keep relying on the external to tell us how we feel, we're just setting ourselves up for a world of hurt to come. As a leader, you have to work out what other people see you Joanne Lockwood: as. Yeah, yeah. The other way that we help people Susan Drumm: see the patterns for themselves and how they might shift them is using music, actually. So I wrote a book called the Leaders Playlist, and it's how to use the power of music and neuroscience to transform your leadership in your life. And I'm using music both figuratively and literally. So tying that back into what we just talked about, starting to discover what is that playlist that's no longer serving you? And because essentially what it is, it's a vibration. It's like a belief that you're putting out there that the world returns back to you. And so music is incredibly powerful because it allows you to build new neural pathways more quickly and so allows you to create that new perspective both about yourself and about others by harnessing that power. So we. We, for individuals, like, starting to learn what is that pattern that holds me back, and pairing that with some music to interrupt that pattern and then creating a new playlist of what the new belief needs to be and using music to help rewire that and groove it into the brain such that you have more access to it. That's some of the shifting that we do as well. So it's just a whole nother perspective on how shifts in mindset are possible. So. Right. Right. There's clearly Joanne Lockwood: metaphors in that. We. There are. And we can be much more Susan Drumm: intentional about the music we select by noticing its impact on us. How is it making you feel? What do you notice about that? You know, it was one example. When we go through a breakup, we often like to hear other sad songs because we're mirroring what we're feeling inside. Right. But then if we stay stuck there, that's where it becomes. So I had. There was a girlfriend who went through some tragedy in her life and, you know, like six years later, her whole playlist was like sad songs. And I pointed it out to her and she's like, you know, you're right. I said, they're. They're sort of keeping you stuck in the past. Right. You're stuck in this pattern and you're chipping over your past. When you need to be moving forward into your future. What do you want your future to be? And if you have that, let's create, like, what's that new playlist going to be? And she did and really transformed her life by this simple measure. Joanne Lockwood: And it's time to break. Yes, absolutely. And so if I Susan Drumm: translate that to an example of how. How do we use this in leadership? Right. Though I'll tell a storey. There was a woman I worked with who, very talented, chief marketing officer in a biotech company. And however she was having conflict with her peers in the kind of C suite, the feedback that came back was that she was not being collaborative in a helpful way, wanting to kind of get. Would get upset if she wasn't invited to certain meetings or wasn't. Was left out of key communication. And of course, from her perspective, she's like, I'm the chief marketing officer, I need to know about these things in order for me to be effective. But what I was interested in, in what was the playlist she was playing that was having that show up in her experience. And so we started to look at where, you know, when I described to her, what is she feeling when this occurs and she's feeling frustration, she's feeling like she's being excluded. And so I said, okay, well, let's look where else. Is this a familiar pattern to you? Have you felt this way before? Oh, yes. Right. We could go to the ex husband who now had the lake house that she used to bring the kids to. They used to go as a family and now the kids went with just him. And she. Every time they did that, she felt this same familiar pattern. Or we go further back when, you know, all of her experience, she could very clearly see places. She was sort of hypersensitive now to feelings where she realised she had a playlist called I am Excluded. And so what is her work to do in that is to recognise that that's sort of like there's a patterning and what you look at expands. So she decided to have a song focused particularly to recognise when she's in this pattern. And she didn't want to have this pattern anymore. And that was Adele's hello. You know, the song is sort of like, hello, can you hear me? I've been calling a thousand times and you won't pick up the phone. Right. And so she was like, when I feel this way. Oh, there's Adele again. So what do I want the new playlist to be? And that's where we looked at. She created a new pattern which was, again, these are I am statements. I am excluded becomes now. For her, I bring peace and appreciation. Because she really wanted to focus on what she brought to the community. So in that, she developed a whole playlist of songs that had her be in that experience. And the more she did that, the more life started showing up differently for her life and her work. Such that now people say we need to bring her in. Like, she has coffee every other week with the person who used to be the one that was excluding her the most because her energy shifted around that, their energy shifted. And that's all you really have control over, is shifting your energy at the end of the day. So that's the little example of how music can be used to really shift old patterns and create new ones. Right. This is my storey. Adele's never going to get you out of bed in Joanne Lockwood: the morning. Yeah. And look, it's not to say that we want. The Susan Drumm: emotions are very important to recognise and to feel because they each have information in us. So I'm not saying don't feel this way. You feel what you feel, recognise what it is. It's more about when you get stuck in a pattern of feeling that way where it sort of like becomes the water you swim in. That's where there's the opportunity to break free. Well, right now I'm looking at music that sort of moves the world. And what is music that's going to have me feel free and empowered to create change that benefits humanity and others. And so this song, I think, has been out for a while, but it's really getting. It's called Love Generation and it's. It's just a fun song. And so I'm building some other songs like that because it reminds me of my mission in the world. I can zone out I could Joanne Lockwood: get you feeling good. Yeah. I would really encourage listeners to choose Susan Drumm: a song that represents something to them about how they Want their day to go and play that in the morning a lot. I mean, it's the same looking at. I frequently see it under these nine patterns. Right. Or beliefs. It may be that I can't delegate. I'm the central part. No one does it as good as I can. People don't have my back. These are all kind of ways in which people get stuck and not open to receiving the opportunity that could be there for them. So I would say there's. There's not one. There's patterns of different belief sets and that's. In the book. I detail some examples of these. I go into eight or nine different storeys of the types of leaders and what their old playlist was, let's say, and where they're getting stuck and what their new playlist was. But also even their actual music that they used to shift that. Well, I think one of the shocking things is you would think at that point like there would be relief and less anxiety and all those things. So the, the, the patterns of that sort of like how what you came up against when you made your money is exactly what you're gonna still be dealing with when you have your money. If there was a lot of fear, then the fear will also be present when the fear of losing the money. Right. Or it's sort of the same. It doesn't. You don't change. And so I have. You don't change unless you do the work to change. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. The same emotions can be present because Susan Drumm: you've developed those patterns over a lifetime. And so, I mean, you'd be surprised the same challenges they're facing are what other leaders are facing. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I can resonate that. I work in a fairly tight small business consulting community across HR and people. People. And there's a. There's a common theme of imposter syndrome and burnout and family and conflict of work. We've all got something, haven't we? And it's very similar. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Susan Drumm: So it's no different. And I think I can speak to that. You know, I'm not intimidated by, you know, that level of success. It's still a human being that's still got blind spots and gifts and superpowers and how can we leverage more of that? But how can we broaden the perspective so that people. Again, I'm just most interested in people being free and empowered to create the change that they want to be creating and helping them see where they put their own self imposed limits on that and shifting them is the work that I love to do. In the world. Joanne Lockwood: I would have thought they would also respect you meeting them where they're at as well. And they probably get surrounded by people who are scared, scared of them, but, you know, scared to speak up, scared to share their perspective. And if you could be yourself around them and be relaxed and be a peer as opposed to a subordinate, then yeah, it must be, must be refreshing for them as well. Susan Drumm: Yes, yes, I've heard that exact piece. You know, treat me as like I'm solid in myself. I don't. I'm not going to get, you know. In awe of Joanne Lockwood: anybody. No, it's. Right, it's, it's either a maturity or a. There's a certain point in your life where you, you kind of, you kind of get that, don't you? You kind of become that self confident, self assured. Susan Drumm: Yeah. And you don't need to be in awe of anybody. They're just, they're just Joanne Lockwood: people who happen to have a bigger get up with zeros in their bank account than you do. Yeah, yeah. Is there a gender difference? You know, is it female executive prototype or type? Or is there. Is it very similar traits across genders? It's a good question. I feel like Susan Drumm: there's, I think it's changing generationally, but let's say my generation, I'm in my mid-50s and the women that have risen through the ranks have. There's a real sort of like fire a little bit underneath them because they've had to kind of break through some initial bias and so there's confidence but also maybe exhausted because that took a lot of energy to get there for. A number of sort of lean in generations. Cheryl Sandberg sort of thing where Joanne Lockwood: you having to reclaim your truth and reclaim your power type generation, that requires a. Lot of energy to do that. So Susan Drumm: I recognise maybe some patterns in that for that generation of women and what they've had to claim. And maybe sometimes it comes through in, well, if I had to fight and claw my way, so should you, because that made me who I am. It gave them a confidence. Right. But then there's a different expectation whereas, you know, maybe a different generation doesn't want to have to fight and claw their way. So having that expectation that that's how you need to be in order to be successful I think is a limiting. Belief because there's a lot Joanne Lockwood: of younger billionaires these days, isn't there? It's not all Warren buffets in their 70s and 80s. There's a lot of self made Silicon Valley unicorn leaders in their early 20s making printing money, being innovative, creating startups. And they're probably a lot more gung ho. A lot, lot more, a lot less risk averse. They're probably more seat of the pants. Susan Drumm: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think whatever makes us successful in what we do, we think that's the recipe for success that everyone else has to bottle. And it's not, we're seeing, it's not actually the case. No, but, but I Joanne Lockwood: guess there's a generational challenge as well. Just the, the lived experience, you know, we talked about that earlier, the perspectives, it's coming around full circle. You talked about these nine different leadership styles. I'm guessing then that that age diversity, gender diversity, ethnicity diversity is all in there and those lived experiences all help contribute and it's not necessarily true that just because you're 60, you're going to be more cautious or just because you're younger, you're going to be more gung ho. That's again a stereotype bias, isn't it? Susan Drumm: Yeah, for sure. And that's why I think, you know, these different leadership style types, they're, they're not influenced by generation, they're actually how, maybe how it shows up could be a little bit different. Right. Saying how someone is more of like the sceptic and how that shows up. There's just as many in a younger generation as well, I don't see a distinction. I think it's universal. Joanne Lockwood: So which is the rare blood type, the AB negative of the leadership styles, which is the rocking horse poo? It's hard to find that the last piece of the jigsaw you have to get in your team. Typically I would say what I see Susan Drumm: least of, and it may be that it's, I know it has to do with the industries that I'm working with, but it's the type 4 which is the intense, creative. Typically that type tends to be in more creative, like highly creative fields. And so, but they're really good at crafting purpose and meaning behind the work. So if I, you know, I do a lot of work, healthcare, tech, professional services, financial services, those types tend to be missing. But when we do find them, they play in a key role in the team's performance, particularly being able to translate whatever it is that their goal is into like the why, what's the purpose and meaning behind what we're doing? And if anything, I would say the younger generation, they need to hear that. And so the type 4 is particularly well suited to help making that translation and understanding the why behind what the Organisation is trying to do the way. You described that it Joanne Lockwood: seemed to my understanding would resonate with someone who was maybe neurodiverse. That intensity, that hyper focus, that ability to really be single, focused and creative at the same time. Is that truism or is that me just guessing? I wouldn't say necessarily singularly focused. It's Susan Drumm: more. These types are often able to see perspectives like more more in tap with their emotion, the emotional life within them. And because they can get in touch with their own, they can get in touch with yours as well. And through that they're able to influence in a way that others can't around purpose and meaning. But also they're able to leverage those emotions to be able to bring the creativity into whatever they do. I think those that are most creative are able to tap into, they understand their own emotional life in more dep. Joanne Lockwood: Okay, so flipping on the other side then, which is the O positive, which is the common leadership type? Which is the one that we've got that one first. That's the first corner we put in our jigsaw. What's the common type? Well, typically Susan Drumm: I would say more CEOs are type threes or type 8s. There are two types that I see very common. A type 3 is the competitive achiever and type 8 is called the powerful challenger or active controller would be another way to describe them. And these two types tend to be the leader types that want to be in charge and leading the pack. So more often than not, I'm. When I'm working with a CEO, there are. Now that's not always the case by any means. And I love when I get to work with a leader who's in a different format. But I've worked with more threes and eights than any other type at the CEO's spot. How do you class Barack Obama then? Joanne Lockwood: Where would you put him on the. You know, I don't know. Susan Drumm: That's interesting. I've never thought to think about what his type is. What's hard is what we're really looking for is what motivates you or drive you. Behaviour can vary from person to person. So if. But all we see is behaviour. So it's very hard when somebody tries to, I guess, call it like armchair type someone else because they don't actually know why they're doing what they're doing. And that's what makes it such a rich tool. Because if you think of like an iceberg, above the waterline is behaviour. That's what we can see below the waterline. Is what's driving that behaviour, what's the motivation? And that's what this assessment really looks at. And because of that, really encourage people to. There are some ones out there that do not type people accurately because it's harder. It's a harder thing to assess. You want the ones that are. You don't want the cheapy or freebie ones online. Like, they do not do you justice because they're probably mistyping. They're horoscopes. Joanne Lockwood: They're just horoscopes. Yeah, they're just. They're just not accurate. And so Susan Drumm: what you really want is the one that is, like, far more detailed and one that we use in our programmes that is backed by neuroscience, that has over 1200 questions in the database. They're not asking you 1200 questions, but they're using fractal mathematics to keep checking and rechecking to make sure that they get an accurate typing. So with Barack, I only have. I don't know him well enough to understand when he's described, motivation to see whether. Otherwise I just look at his behaviour and then I could mistype. Okay, that's. That's a really fair point. That, as you say, Joanne Lockwood: it's. It's backed by neuroscience, and neuroscience is sitting in an armchair a thousand miles away having a guess. So that's, that's the validation, you know, we're looking for here. You have to engage in the process and it has a meaning. Yes, Right. Susan Drumm: So, you know, there's a way to. We've got a programme called Enneagram Applied, which will both assess but also show you how to leverage that, to be able to create your own development plan and further use those around you to help understand your blind spot in more depth and leverage them in. We kind of put it a mini 360 model of leveraging those who know you best to further explore that blind spot. Because I'm also a believer, like an assessment is an assessment. It's more about what do you do with that information that makes all the difference. And so that's why we call it applied, because we want you to apply this information for your own growth, not just, like, give you a horoscope thing. Joanne Lockwood: Have you got any statistics on percentage improvement or is it. Is it not that measurable? I mean, do you measure when you've got nine pieces of the jigsaw in place versus only three pieces that jigsaw in place? Is there a. Is there a demonstrable, tangible, quantitative outcome of this? I mean, if, If I could zero Susan Drumm: in, I would have Billions. Yes. Joanne Lockwood: It'd be very rich. Yes, I know, because I see the improvement in the team. Susan Drumm: But they were making lots of different changes. Right. So it's hard to isolate the factor. It's because of this they start collaborating better and then they come up with a new idea and then they bring in a new marketing person. So you can't. It's very hard for people to isolate what was the actual thing. But I know it creates change. So Joanne Lockwood: there's a certain element of cultural shift, isn't there? If you're, if you're doing the work, you become invested in the process, you become invested in the outcome and then you become more, more aware of each other and different thinking starts and personality traits. Therefore you're more tolerant of their views, you're more inviting of their views into your views. So I guess it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as well, where you, by being on the programme, doing the work, it becomes output, it gets delivered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Susan Drumm: It really does. So it's exciting work and I'm grateful to have been in this field for, like I said, Now, 25 years with my own firm over the last 20. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow. So it's been fascinating actually. We could probably talk another couple of hours, but, you know, we've got it, we've got to get on. How can people get ahold of you? Sure. Susan Drumm: Well, I want to invite people, if they are curious about their superpower and potential liability that we talked about earlier, to go to susandrum.com and take. I've got a simple free quiz there that will start to illuminate what might be your superpower and liability. But the fun part comes after because what we'll do is we'll send you based on how your responses are the chapter in the book that most relates to that. And so you will get the playlist of the person who might be similar to you and what they use, what their old playlist title was, what music and what the new one is so you can play around and maybe get some ideas. If you want to create your own playlist based on what you see might need to shift in your own life from that. So we like to tie those things together and that's a fun way. So go there. I also have my own podcast called the Enlightened Executive where we interview leaders and entrepreneurs about their own journey to enlightened leadership. And so those are two great ways to get connected. And of course my firm is meritage leadership and there's more information there too. Fabulous, Fabulous. So Drum Joanne Lockwood: D R U M M - 2m's yes. Yeah. 2Ms I know. Isn't it funny that Susan Drumm: I wrote a book about music and my last name is an instance. They say that you align with your name. I can't remember what it's Joanne Lockwood: called. I don't know how this happens but it does. There's dentist called Dr. Payne or something and there's a thing. I can't remember what it's called now maybe someone can write in and tell me but there's a, there's a thing where you become the person by your name. Well known theory, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheque that out. I wanna find out my playlist and I wanna do some assessment there. Yeah and actually my free gift back to you is I I I I feed the transcript these episodes and generate song lyrics of each episode. So it'd be really interesting to see what the song lyrics come out for this one. And I use an AI music platform called suno. I generate you an ep so I do different music styles for Bollywood to every rock to rock ballads. So it'd be really interesting to see if any of those you go, ah, that's my playlist, that's my song. And yeah, so if you're listening to this, I have got an AI playlist of songs from the podcast. So yeah, please cheque it out. Susan Drumm: I can't wait to hear that. Yeah, well it's been Joanne Lockwood: absolutely fantastic getting to know you, having a conversation and for those listening, check out Susan on LinkedIn, on all the other platforms and visit the website. All of the details will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure. As we bring this conversation to a close. I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.