--- title: "Reclaiming Intimate Connection" episode: 208 date: 2026-05-07 guest: "Xanet Pailet" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/208-reclaiming-intimate-connection audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-208/audio.mp3 --- # Reclaiming Intimate Connection In this episode, Jo Lockwood speaks with sex and intimacy educator Xanet Pailet about what it takes to restore intimacy in long-term relationships. The conversation focuses on how emotional disconnection, shame, stress, and routine can cause sex and closeness to fade over time, and why expanding the definition of sex beyond penetration can open up new possibilities for connection. Xanet shares parts of her own experience of a long sexless marriage and explains how trauma, pain, and lack of communication contributed to that disconnect. She also offers a practical, sex-positive approach to helping couples talk about desire, fantasy, and changing needs without blame or judgment. A recurring theme is the importance of emotional safety: if people do not feel safe to speak honestly, intimacy is difficult to rebuild. The episode also explores flirting, playfulness, novelty, and making time for connection outside the bedroom as ways to sustain desire in long-term partnerships. Xanet highlights her Intimacy Equation quiz as a tool for helping couples begin conversations more gently and identify their intimacy style. The overall message is that lasting intimacy depends on communication, curiosity, and a willingness to keep learning about one another. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 05:34 — Losing emotional connection in marriage - 07:52 — Discussing relationship dynamics and intimacy - 10:23 — Teenage relationships and boundaries - 15:35 — Keeping long-term relationships exciting - 18:01 — Discussing sexless relationships - 22:28 — Planning intimate time together - 24:33 — Exploring risky intimate scenarios - 27:59 — Maintaining intimacy in relationships - 32:14 — Recognising and addressing relationship issues - 34:17 — Discussing intimacy style quiz - 39:50 — Exploring fantasies and core desires - 40:49 — Enhancing emotional connection in sex - 45:32 — Improving relationship intimacy - 47:35 — Final thoughts and gratitude ## Key takeaways - The nuanced realities of sexless relationships and why they are more common than often assumed. - How sexual intimacy extends beyond penetrative acts and can be defined as any shared erotic energy between partners. - The impact of routine, stress, parenting, and mismatched libidos on relationship satisfaction and sexual connection. - The role of communication, conscious prioritisation, and emotional safety in reviving long-term desire and intimacy. - Strategies for approaching difficult conversations about sex and fantasy without assigning blame or shame. - The value of exploring and expressing fantasies—even if they remain unfulfilled—to better understand oneself and one’s partner. - Practical tools, including intimacy style quizzes, to spark curiosity and begin open dialogues that strengthen connection. ## FAQs ### FAQ: Reclaiming Intimate Connection — Insights from Inclusion Bites What does it mean to "reclaim intimate connection" in a long-term relationship? Reclaiming intimate connection means consciously restoring or enhancing the emotional and erotic bonds between partners that may have faded over time. It involves honest communication, redefining what sex and intimacy mean, and prioritising emotional safety and mutual desire for reconnection. As Xanet Pailet shares, many couples gradually lose physical and emotional intimacy due to life stages, miscommunication, or neglect. Reclaiming it requires recognising the slide, expressing needs without blame, and co-creating new ways to connect intimately (06:32)-(07:07). --- Does sex really matter in a relationship? Sex is an important facet for many couples, often intertwined with emotional closeness and overall relationship satisfaction. However, its significance and expression can vary. Xanet Pailet emphasises that while some can maintain love without sex—often with mutual agreement—others may experience resentment or disconnection if sexual needs are unmet, especially in the absence of open, consensual communication (06:35)-(08:48). --- Is the definition of sex limited to penetration? Absolutely not. The podcast underlines that sex encompasses a broad spectrum, including everything from making out and mutual touch to sharing fantasies or even sexting. Xanet Pailet advocates a definition centred on "anything that creates erotic energy," encouraging couples to explore diverse forms of intimacy beyond genital or penetrative acts. This approach is both inclusive and adaptable to different bodies, identities, and desires (09:05)-(13:01). --- Why do couples drift into sexless or low-desire dynamics? This often evolves gradually, influenced by stress, parenting, medical issues, lack of communication, or the monotony of routine. Over time, intimacy can disappear without deliberate effort to sustain it. Xanet Pailet notes that resentment, emotional withdrawal, and poorly synchronised libidos commonly contribute. Addressing these patterns calls for intentional prioritisation and adaptive strategies (14:12)-(17:47). --- Can intimacy and sexual energy be rekindled after years of disconnection? Yes, with conscious effort. Rekindling requires more than spontaneous sparks—it demands commitment, curiosity, communication, and often reimagining shared activities both in and out of the bedroom. Trying new things together, whether sexual or non-sexual, has been shown to energise relationships and renew attraction (20:32)-(21:31). --- What is the impact of stress and life circumstances on libido? Stress is cited as a major libido killer. Financial pressures, family issues, wider societal anxieties, and lack of emotional safety all suppress desire. Xanet Pailet and Joanne Lockwood discuss how external stressors often erode the emotional groundwork necessary for sexual intimacy (17:18)-(17:51). --- Is planning sex less romantic than spontaneity? While spontaneity is often romanticised, planning sex can help align mismatched libidos and foster anticipation. Scheduling "sexy time" enables partners to mentally and emotionally prepare, and can actually reignite desire and creativity. Planning does not preclude excitement—a “planned risk” or new adventure can bring its own thrill (22:04)-(23:43). --- How can couples start difficult conversations about sex without creating conflict? Starting with curiosity, not accusation, is key. Xanet Pailet recommends non-threatening approaches such as taking her "intimacy equation quiz" together, which helps illuminate individual intimacy styles and opens gentle dialogue. Initiating a discussion in this way avoids blame, fosters understanding, and can spark positive change without overwhelming either partner (33:12)-(34:52). --- How important is emotional safety in maintaining intimacy? Emotional safety is foundational for vulnerability, pleasure, and true intimacy. Partners must feel secure that expressing needs or desires will not result in criticism, rejection, or weaponisation of their feelings. Without emotional safety, communication stalls, resulting in defensive patterns that erode erotic and emotional bonds (45:32)-(46:14). --- What role do fantasies play in a healthy sex life? Fantasies are a normal and powerful part of sexuality—they can be a source of arousal, exploration, and even healing. Fantasies do not need to be enacted to benefit the relationship and sometimes are best left as imagination. When discussed openly, fantasies can help partners understand each other’s core desires, though not all must be shared or acted upon. Shame is lessened through acceptance and dialogue (40:49)-(43:01). --- Is it “cheating” to have sexual fantasies about others or use erotic material? No, not inherently. Xanet Pailet notes that many people experience guilt about fantasy, but private fantasies, self-pleasure, or erotic media use do not constitute infidelity unless it specifically violates mutually agreed boundaries within the relationship (43:12)-(44:32). --- Can all relationships be “repaired,” or is separation sometimes the best outcome? Not all relationships are salvageable. Some reach a level of toxicity, resentment, or incompatibility where separation is healthiest. However, many can find new connection when both partners are motivated, open to change, and willing to communicate honestly. Friendliness and goodwill increase the likelihood of repair; entrenched conflict makes it much harder (30:03)-(31:16). --- Where can I find the intimacy quiz and further resources mentioned in the episode? The intimacy quiz and details of programmes and the book The Sex and Intimacy Repair Kit can be found at howtoimprovemylovelife.com, as shared by Xanet Pailet (46:42)-(47:12). --- For more conversations that challenge norms and inspire inclusive change, listen to further episodes at Inclusion Bites Podcast. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 208 with the title Reclaiming Intimate Connection. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Xanet Pailet. Xanet is a nationally recognised sex and intimacy educator, coach, best selling author and retreat leader who helps committed couples repair disconnection and rediscover emotional and sexual intimacy after years of struggle. When I asked Shanae to describe her superpower, she said that it is her ability to guide couples through shame and silence into honest, embodied conversations that restore safety, desire and deep connection. Hello, Xanet. Welcome to the show. Xanet Pailet: Thank you, Jo. I am super excited to be here and have this conversation with you and help your audience learn how to have a better sex life and improve it. Joanne Lockwood: When your email came in with your blurb for the, for the show, I read it and thought, oh, this sounds interesting. Sex, Sex and intimacy educator. I thought, well, as a, as a, as a, as a 60 year old, I've, I've had my plenty of, plenty of life to have sex and it be intimate. So it'd be interesting to see where we go with this. Beautiful. So you're, you're based in the States somewhere, is it? Xanet Pailet: I am, yes. I'm in the States. I'm in Asheville, North Carolina. Western North Carolina, in the mountains. We just snowed here a little bit last night. Oh, wow. Wow. Because I always think of the Joanne Lockwood: Carolinas as being sort of the south and hot and sticky. Yeah, When I was there in what, 93, it was very hot and sticky. So you've got snow and mountains? Well, Xanet Pailet: yeah. And in the winter, most of North Carolina gets colder anyway. Like, you know, people think it's going to be warm here, but it's not. It's, you know, even by the beach. It's probably down in the. Maybe freeze right here. It's. I don't know, in the 20s. Joanne Lockwood: I was chatting to another guest who is from Atlanta in Georgia, which is probably a neighbour, isn't it? Ish. Yeah. Like five hours away. Georgia. It was saying they were. They were saying it was cold. Yeah. Back last November. So you were having quite. Quite a cold snap, if you like. Disproportionate. Yes, yes, yes, yes, that is true. But, Xanet Pailet: you know, we've got our warm coats and our fireplaces and Ugg boots. It's all good. Oh, yeah, we've got to have Joanne Lockwood: our Ugg boots. We definitely gotta have our Ugg boots as well. Exactly. It's not really cold enough here for too much, but, yeah, we're more of a wet and windy sort of part of the country. So. Yeah. Miserable damp. Yeah, I can handle snow, I can handle a bit of ice, but, yeah, damp. Yeah. That's kind of hard too, the damp. The. Xanet Pailet: Yeah. So you said in your notes that you put through Joanne Lockwood: that you yourself had experienced a 26 year sexless marriage and you obviously had an epiphany. You had some moment in that time that triggered you into doing something about that. So tell me a bit about that. Xanet Pailet: Yeah, I mean, I was married for 26 years and that marriage was primarily sexless probably for 20 years, which is actually less uncommon than you would think. Right. Like, there's. There's a lot of couples that are actually living in sexless marriages. And mine was really related to a lot of my own trauma growing up in childhood. Not sexual abuse trauma, but shame trauma, which is a thing, and some medical trauma, which is also a thing. So it just made sex uncomfortable and painful and my body was just really, really shut down. And because we were super young, I was 24 when I got married. I just graduated law school. We really didn't have skills, knowledge, information, the ability to be able to process this, to talk about it, to solve it, to do anything about it other than fight about it and then just stop it because we had to stop the fighting and be parents. And so it just went on, you know, for 20 years. And it for me was like, oh, you know, doesn't feel good anyway, want to do this. Like, it just. It made no sense to me that people wanted to have sex ever. Just didn't. I know, but it's true. And so, you know, like, what do we do? Like, we take all of that sexual energy which we have, like, poured it into my kids and my business and my hobbies and my side businesses and allowed the relationship to wither because that's what happens a lot of the times when there's bad communication, you're feeling disconnected from your partner, there's a big issue you can't talk about. And intimacy just like fades over a period of time until we found ourselves living separate lives, living in separate bedrooms, even while our kids were growing up. So, yeah, it was a challenging in some ways. It didn't feel challenging at the time because I was so busy with other stuff. But looking back on it, it's like, yeah, that was. There was a lot of grief that happened of the. Not so much the sex, but the lack of closeness, the lack of feeling emotionally supported and emotionally connected. Does sex really matter in a relationship? Ah, so interesting. I just posted on Facebook a question. I literally posted that question like you can. And it was like, you can have. You can have sex without love, but in a long term relationship, can you have love? Can you. You can have. Sorry, you can have sex without love, but in a long time relationship, can you have love without sex? And I got a lot of feedback and a lot of comments on that question that I posed. And it was really fascinating to me to get to hear what people had to say. So what I heard from a lot of people, and mind you, a lot of these people who are responding to my Facebook posts are already pretty sex positive and a whole bunch of them are already in like open relationships. So it's not really apples to apples, right? But you know, what I heard very, very frequently was like, yes, you can. You know, like that does happen over time. Things do change. And it's, and it's, you know, and I get that. And I always question whether that's happening with consent, whether it's happening because conversations aren't happening. And actually one partner wants sex and the other partner has maybe a lower desire. So, you know, it's actually a great question. So clearly there's a lot of couples that are together who aren't having sex, right? The question that I always ask is like, is that consensual? Have you guys had a conversation and decided like, yes, you know, we're in a new stage of life and we just don't want to have sex anymore. We just want to cuddle maybe, and that's just what we want, or is it that one person is holding a lot of resentment because her sexual needs aren't being met or, you know, as is often the case, is this really about, we're not having sex because there's other relationship issues going on underneath that. And we're feeling emotionally disconnected. And because we're feeling emotionally disconnected and there's a lot of resentment and anger, we don't really want to have sex with each other. Right. So there's, there's a lot of different ways that you can skin that cat, if you will. It's a great question. I was super curious about how people answered it. Joanne Lockwood: I've. I've got loads of things firing up off in my head right now. So how, how, how would you describe sex? I mean, because sex is a spectrum. It is. And it doesn't have to be penetrative. There are other ways of. Yeah. So how would you describe sex? I think that's. That's a great. That's Xanet Pailet: a great question. Right. And I didn't, I didn't buy that. But, you know, typically, I think when people think about sex, they think about penis and vagina, which we call in the sex therapy world, pivot sex. Right. I don't define it that way. I think that's one of the challenges that a lot of couples have in their relationship is they're so oriented towards penetrative sex, and they're so oriented towards goals and orgasms that they lose out on a lot of other opportunities. So, like, I define sex as a very, you know, sort of wide spectrum, just like you said, right? Anything from, like having a makeout session, like a fruit first base makeout session, to penetrative sex. Right. And anything in between. So if you can, you know, open up the definition of sex, then there's a lot of ways to be able to connect with your partner erotically that don't have to involve. That don't necessarily have to involve penetration. That's helpful for couples to understand that. But they also have to shift their mind, right? There has to be a paradigm shift around what sex is and, you know, what it is now and what it could potentially be. I think back to my Joanne Lockwood: school days, you know, behind the bicycle sheds, you know, going for walks in the woods. And I remember having several girlfriends at the time who we would certainly not go all the way. This was not a meatloaf bat out of hell. I've got to know right now, will you love me forever Type conversation. We were probably first base, second base, groping, fondling, probably achieving orgasm, but not with any PIV, if you want using the phrase you use. And I'm pretty sure at the time we thought that was pretty risky. We didn't feel that we were holding back. We just Respected each other enough to say we don't want to go any further than that. And even in couples now can still go a long way without actually having penetrative sex. Xanet Pailet: Totally. And it's a good thing to do. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And also just putting a sort of multidimensional spin on this. You know, we talk about this in heteronormative terms. Not everybody has one of each in a couple. Sometimes you don't have a penis, you don't have a vagina in a couple. PIV is not the only way of. Totally of being intimate, is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Xanet Pailet: definitely. And. Yeah, well, definitely. And non heteronormative. Right. There's a lot of different ways to be intimate, but yeah, it's definitely not, you know, it can vary from, you know, like I said, from having a makeout session to even just sexting with each other or, you know, talking about a fantasy like that can be a huge turn on for a couple. They don't have to do anything about it, but they can just talk about it. Right. So the more we can open up the definition of sex, the more ability, hopefully couples will have to be able to have more sexual interaction with each other. So what Joanne Lockwood: we're saying here then is that the. The term sex is not one thing, is it? Is it? Or is there a commonality? Is it to. To put a phrase, something that gets your juices flowing in some way? Yeah, that's how I Xanet Pailet: define it. Like anything that creates erotic energy is sex. That's it. That's my definition. That's a very, very broad definition, but I think it's a definition that opens up a lot more possibilities for people to be able to interact with their partner sexually without having all of the pressure that comes with, you know, genital focus Sex? Yeah. So Joanne Lockwood: generating that. Generating that intimacy in however you do that, and that can be just through touch, through making out. It could be just beholding and hugging each other and just being with each other and feeling that energy. Right. Without having to go all the way, whatever that all the way means. Exactly. Not everybody can. Without blue pills and Viagra, some people can't achieve that. Some people have menopause, their vagina is not capable of receiving anymore for various reasons. So, yeah, a whole host of reasons medically, why it may not be practical as well. That's absolutely true. Yeah. So how did. I'm assuming that when you. Using yourself as an example, as you. As you put yourself on the line here, was it something you drifted into and nobody noticed the slide until it Got too far. You had children and there's always obviously a pause when you're raising the children. You've got some stress going on, you're trying to work, look after the kids. All this other thing, you end up with tension and arguments and debate. As you talked about, you fall out of love a bit, you never quite reclaim that. Is it, is that typically a pattern? I don't know that Xanet Pailet: my pattern withstander is like my pattern I don't think is typical because of all of the pain that I had with sex. So it was just like, I don't want to do this, my body hurts. This isn't fun. You know, you're not getting off, I'm not getting off. We're. I'm crying, you're frustrated, like screw this, right? So I don't know that I'm typical. But what is typical, right? And take me out of the, out of the equation for the moment. I think what is typical is, yeah, of course, you know, it does tend to happen and it does tend to fade, often slowly, before you know it, right. Certainly when you have children. Children screw up people's sex lives, we all know that, right? That's just an absolute reality. It makes it so much harder to find, to connect. Like it's just, you know, you never know when they're going to run into the bedroom, right? Like it is a problem. And even as they get older, like I was just working with a couple the other day and they're like, well, we love our 13 year old daughter, but like she wants to like come in at 10 o' clock at night and like, you know, shoot the shit with her and it's great, we love that. But that really screws up our sex life because we don't know when that's going to happen, right? So it's not like once they're past 10, things actually change. So that does make it challenging. And you know, you really have to, to make it a priority. But I do think that, you know, and this is, this is kind of what my Facebook post proved, right, is that like it does fade slowly over time and some of this is, you know, some level of it is a natural. Like things are going to change when you're in a long term relationship, right? Unless you really, it's important to you and you really make a priority to keep things interesting and new and different and experiment because people start getting bored and a lot of times when you start getting bored, you know, sex is only okay then maybe I'd rather be cooking, right? Like it Just doesn't become as important, as much of a priority when it just doesn't feel that good or if it's only okay or it's starting to get boring. And, and I think that's part of the reason that, that sex starts fading over time. We're just doing the same thing over and over again. I can just pull up my vibrator and have an orgasm just as quick as you can get me that. You know what I'm saying? And that, that doesn't actually hit the desires that we want. Like it doesn't hit our turn ons. And I think that's where a lot of couples get stuck. They, they get in this rote place. It's not really hitting their erotic desires and their erotic turn ons. And so it just becomes, at best, at worst, it's like, I'm going to do it to please you because I don't want to lose you. And then it becomes obligation sex. And then often that builds up, you know, some resentment. And so I don't really want to do that. I don't want to feel like I'm having obligation sex. So it just, it stops. And you know, does stress get in the way? Like, let's take kids out of the equation, you know, financial stress, you know, familial stress. Like all of the things, all of the ways in which life is so stressful, especially now. Right. Especially in the United States right now. It really makes people lose their libido. They're just like, you know, that is one of the biggest libido killers is stress. And I think a lot of people are feeling a lot of stress in their bodies. Yeah. The world is not a, a safe Joanne Lockwood: place these days. Isn't it not a safe place these days? We're closer to nuclear war than we've been since jfk. Yeah, Xanet Pailet: absolutely. It's not Cuban. Missing class. Yeah, we're all, Joanne Lockwood: we're all feeling it. Is this true what Bert say when couples are in these sexless marriages, Sexless relationships, sexless, whatever. However you want to describe the coupling, one of them can be jolted into another, into a sexy based relationship with somebody else randomly. You know, so I have an affair, flirting, sexting, glance at the bar, quick drink, all of a sudden something happens. So is that, does that kind of mean that inherently we're all wired to go, I can do this again. But it needs that, that difference, that trigger, that, that spark, those, those dopamine chemicals floating around in your head or something kicking off. So we've all got that potential to rekindle it with somebody else. Xanet Pailet: Yeah. Trying to rekindle it together. Yeah. I mean, of course, I think that's one of the reasons, the biggest reasons that couples separate. Right. Is they're not having sex. Right. That is a huge pain point in a lot of relationships. Or somebody goes outside of the marriage because they're not having sex in the marriage and then, you know, they go outside of the marriage. And yes. I mean, there is the absolute reality that it is very, very hard to reclaim that new relationship energy in the context of a long term relationship because it's very, very specific to that period of time when you first meet somebody. Those first six to 18 months. Right. And the dopamine hormones are just surging through your body, which is basically just mother Nature's, you know, imprint on, want you to procreate. Really what's happening, Right. Even if you're 50 or 60 years old, it doesn't matter. You know, Joanne Lockwood: you're going at it like bunnies. You're going at it like bunnies, right? Exactly. Because Xanet Pailet: of that new relationship energy. And that new relationship energy naturally fades after 18 months at the most. Right. Couples that have been able to maintain that level of connection that I've seen and, and worked with or have talked to have experienced are really couples who make it a priority, understand that they need to change things up in their relationship. Like, they can't do the same thing over and over again. They need to be curious, they need to explore, they need to try new things. They, you know, and, and not just in their sex life, by the way. Right. Like in other aspects of their life. Like, we do have research that shows it's fascinating, which, but it shows that couples that do a lot of different interesting things all the time, like, oh, one day we're going to go to the museum and the next day we're going to take a cooking class and, you know, whatever, have a better sex. Because they're more, you know, they're more focused on doing new things and changing things up. And just doing those things makes it more exciting and interesting to be with your partner because you're experiencing new things with them all their time. And you get to look at them and you're like, oh, look at you. Like you're cooking in the kitchen. I've never seen you do pastry before. Right. And you kind of fall in love with them again. So, you know, that is one of the, that's one of the, that's one of the things that I've really learned is how important it Is in the context of a long term relationship, to find time outside of the bedroom to do new, fun and interesting things with your partner, to be explored, to adventurous, to try new things. Because it does keep that energy going and then that can flow over to the bedroom as well. Again, you're talking about things that Joanne Lockwood: are flowing through my head. It must be very. One of the challenges must be trying to synchronise your libido. Where I'm coming to bed late or I'm going to bed early, you're going to bed late, you want to read your book, I want to finish watching the telepathy. Just finish off some work and you say, I'll do the washing up, take the dog out and you just go, yeah. Or if one person is feeling a bit horny earlier and the other person's in this other zone, it's trying to synchronise those libido moments, isn't it? Yeah. And you know, and that Xanet Pailet: is often a challenge in long term relationships. You know, I hear that all the time. I'm a morning person, he's a night person or she's a night person. And then that is a challenge. Right. But it is, it is all the answer to that is communication. The answer to everything is communication. Can we find a compromise? Can we figure out a time, can we put something on the calendar, you know, at a time of day that actually works for both of us? Can we be very conscious around our desire to have sexy time or to have sex that night or that morning or whatever? And I know that people are like, oh, planning. It is like, it takes the spontaneity out, but it's like, you know, yeah, the spontaneity has to come out at times. Right. Planning it actually allows your brain, which is our biggest organ during sex, to be able to start to get on board. Yeah, we have, you know, sexy time plan for tonight. Let me start thinking about that. What do I want to do? What do I want my body to feel like? You know, maybe for, for some people it's like, oh, maybe I need to masturbate a little bit before. Right. Like really thinking about what your body needs to start to do, what you can do inside of you to, you know, pull up some of your desire. But that does take commitment and it takes a level of consciousness and awareness of what your arousal pathway is and really making sex a priority in the relationship. And that is a huge, huge difference. When couples make sex a priority in their relationship, then they start having a lot more enjoyable sex. If you're having an affair Joanne Lockwood: and you're having to sneak around and do things, then it's often not spontaneous anyway, because what you're thinking is, oh, I've got to book a hotel room, I've got to sneak out the house, I've got to make all this cover storey. It's surreptitious. Sex isn't just. Isn't often spontaneous. Maybe if you're picking something or hooking up at a bar, maybe it is. But once you get into. Into week two, you're now sneaking around. You're totally planning as. You're totally planning as Xanet Pailet: well. But I think the difference is that for some people, the risk is sexy. Right. For a lot of people, like the, you know, there's something about. It's like, I might get caught. Right. Like there's. There's some sort of erotic charge potentially under, you know, underneath that. For some people, that's part of, you know, what turns them on is being in a risky situation. Right. Which you can totally translate to your partner. Right. Well, if, if, if in fact, you know, being in a little bit of a risky situation is part of my turn on. Well, what if, like, you know, we try to have sex in an elevator or, you know, we go out to dinner and I put my hand under her skirt or whatever? Right. Like, there are ways to do that. In the context of the relationship, it's understanding what your turn on is that actually allows that to happen. Yeah. No, I'm Joanne Lockwood: with you. In my relationships over the years, I've definitely tickled those boxes. You know, there are. There are other opportunities. And when you. When we broaden that definition of what sex means, and it's not just that final getting down and dirty and that. Yeah, that groaning and grunting at the end. It's. It's all the things that go into that. Yeah. And it's. Sometimes it's just touch, sometimes it's just connection being there. My wife and I, we often flirt a bit. We do a lot of stately homes, we go and visit a lot of old properties in the UK and sometimes we work out that when we're walking around these big old homes and we're the only person in the room or we're. There's a big door, we sort of sneak behind the door and sort of go a bit of a. Bit of a cuddle or a bit of a Bit of a bum pinch or something and go, no one saw that. Yeah. So we do a bit of that. I love Xanet Pailet: that. Yeah. You could take the opportunities wherever you Are. And Joanne Lockwood: just even if we go to the cinema and sit there and some popcorn. Yes, for sure. Xanet Pailet: I love to hear that. Right. And I think that is one of the pieces that we, we miss in, in the long term relationship is the flirting. When you first met, there was probably a lot of flirting happening, right? But again, that's something that kind of goes away. Because what is flirting? It's like, you know, you're trying to get somebody's attention, right? You're supposed to show yourself off, whatever it is. But when you're in a long term relationship, you don't need to have that person's attention. You've got that attention 24 7. Right. You know, remembering how much fun it was to flirt with your partner is important. Right. And again, that's part of building up, building up the desire and recognising that you've got to keep things like fresh and interesting and show your partner that you still think that they're attractive and sexy and that you want to, you know, be with them. Yeah, my wife does it to me and I do Joanne Lockwood: it to her from time to time where she'll say, why don't you have your hair down today because you look much better with your hair down. Or how about wearing that dress? I haven't seen you wear that dress for ages. Or come on, don't wear your jeans again. Put something nice on or put a bit of makeup on. I go, okay. And it's really nice to know that she cares, she's thinking about it and she wants to see me in a different light rather than, okay, I can dress up a bit. Come on then. Yeah, you too, go on this. It's both a bit posh. We're only going shopping, but why not? Why can't we posh up for a bit of shopping, have a bit of fun or go to dinner or something? So those are little ways of just showing your partner the person you're intimate with, that you're thinking about them in that way as well, right? Absolutely. And Xanet Pailet: I think that is important because what you're bringing up is we all want to feel desired. That is super important. And when your partner tells you, oh, I love when you have that dress on or put your sexy underwear on, you know that there's some desire there, right. And that they're thinking about you and paying attention to you. So that is, you know, an important piece of maintaining a good sex life is showing for each partner to show each other that they still desire that. Right. Whether that's physical touch, whether it's using words, whether it's sending a sexy text or whether it's telling your partner to, you know, not wear panties. Night. Right. All of that is showing desire. Bit wet and windy at the moment. Joanne Lockwood: I'd probably be safe. Safe with them on some pantyhose as well. Yeah. Presumably. I'm guessing here, give me if I'm wrong, that you tend to get involved with couples who already have a desire to have a conversation. People who don't want to have a conversation probably don't get in contact with you. You're already seeing people who want to. I guess the key thing to start this off is are we both agreed that we want to do something positive about this? Because if we can't agree on that statement, there's no point in carrying on, is there? We might as well just say, I never want sex again with you. I don't want sex again with you. Maybe that's the honest conversation. Maybe. Maybe that's the point where we say, actually we either go into an open relationship or we part company or we put up with that. Yeah, no, I think that's true. I mean, you Xanet Pailet: know, couples who reach out to me are often at the end of their rope. Right. They're at a crossroads. You know, they're like, if we can't solve this, you know, we've been to therapists, we've been to sex therapists, but you're kind of. Janet, you're our last resort. If we can't. If we can't solve this, then either we're going to open the relationship up, which is not generally, just in general, not who I see sometimes, occasionally. Or it's more like we're going to go our separate ways. Right. But they both have to be on the same wave wavelength. Right. They both have to want to change. They both have to want to work on this. Otherwise nothing's. Nothing's going to happen. Right. But, you know, I mean, I think that a lot of couples, for a variety of different reasons. Right. Believe that marriage is sacrosanct and they are committed to trying to fix their relationship. Certainly those are people who tend to show up in. In my office. Right. And they're, you know, they'll do anything. Right. You know, especially if there are children involved and. And they feel like it's still fixable. Sometimes it's not. Right, Jo? Sometimes it's like you've gotten to a point where the relationship is so toxic that the best thing to do is to separate. And I'm very honest with people. If that's where we're at. But, but for a lot of, a lot of people who, you know, have children in the picture and they, they're still like friends, right? If they're still friends, but they're not lovers anymore, there's a lot that can be done there, right? If they hate each other, that's a lot harder to work through. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, well, I suppose you don't have to like someone to have sex with someone, do you? You don't have to, is that what you said? Yeah. You don't have to. Oh, you don't? You don't. But Xanet Pailet: typically, if there's a lot of fighting going on and it's a couple that has a tremendous amount of high distress, couples is what we call them. They are not having sex because they are. One or both of them is feeling emotionally shut down. They're resentful, they're angry. They have no desire to be able to open themselves up to their partner and do anything for their partner that feels good. So I mean, it is highly unusual that a distressed couple is having a very active sex life. You're more likely to want to Joanne Lockwood: put deadly nightshade into coffee, aren't you? I suppose at that point, right? Something like Xanet Pailet: that. It's more likely that's gonna happen. That would spice it up a bit. Yeah, that would spice it. But I do wanna bring up a point. Cause I think it's an important point, right? You didn't ask the question, but I'm gonna answer it. So I think one of the places where couples really struggle is how do they know things aren't going right? Like, we're very well aware that things aren't going right. How do we start to have a conversation about this without opening up Pandora's box, right? Which people are very, very afraid of. Like if I open up Pandora's box, I can't put all this back in. How do we have a conversation about it without there being shame, without there being blame, without there being guilt, without me chasing my partner to the point that they're going to have an affair? And that I think is a really critical question that I look at a lot. And so I want to make a suggestion because I've actually tried to figure out how do I help couples get over that first step? Because once they get over that first step, then the conversation can open up and change can start to happen. So I have, I created a, an intimacy equation quiz which allows couples. I think we might have talked about this in our pre call, which allows couples to be able to identify what their intimacy type is. It's kind of like a personality test. But there's a lot of different intimacy types, which is important to understand. How do you communicate with your partner? Right. Some people are much more emotionally focused. Some people are more sensually, like touch focused. Some people are more adventuresome. For some couples, trust and loyalty is really important. And so what I always recommend, and I'll say this to all of your listeners, is like to take this test, right. If you're the person who's like, oh, things are not going okay, but I don't know how to have this conversation with my partner. Right. So take this test. You can find it at my website, which is how to improve how to improve my love life. Com. It's like a three minute test. It's kind of cute. You'll get your results and you'll. Then you'll get some information about, you know, well, how do you interact? If this is your style, how do you interact with other styles? What are that, are the, you know, things that you need to be concerned about? Where do you work well together, have to be a little bit more aware and then go to your partner and say, like, hey, you know, I just took this kind of interesting quiz, this interesting test about like, what my intimacy style is. And it's, you know, X, Y and Z. And I'm kind of curious, like, what is yours? Would you want to take this test? Right. And then ideally that starts a conversation in sort of in a way that is not very threatening to either partner. Right. And I do think that's really important, an important tool for couples to have an awareness about, like, how do we start this without one of us saying we've got to go find a sex therapist? That can be very scary and off putting to a partner who is not on board? Right. But something like this allows things to happen at a lower, slower kind of pace. It just starts about curiosity and conversation. Yeah. Because I Joanne Lockwood: would imagine that first step, there's potentially blame in there. There's potentially a why. If I ask you why you don't want to do this. I do. You don't. Right. Because the why opens, as you say, opens this Pandora's box totally. Suddenly all this stuff comes back where you don't do this and you don't do that. And it's so it's a. Xanet Pailet: And it's scary then into a whole. New territory, aren't we? Right. And it's. For a lot of people, it's terrifying because I don't know what that answer is going to be. And I don't know what the consequences are going to be. What's the repercussions if we start having this conversation? Are we going to end up divorcing or is one of us going to go have an affair? Right. Which is why, like having this, this quiz, this tool, to be able to have a gentle conversation from coming from a place of curiosity rather than blame is so important. To be able to start to fix things, if you will. Yeah, I think that's Joanne Lockwood: good. As you say, it's more like a magazine quiz and that you sit there and you take a tick back pages and go, oh look, my sex style is this. It might just be that you both sit there and look at each other and go, well, neither of us like initiating. We both want to have the other person initiate. And because neither of us do, we wait for the other one. It never ever happens. You get to the point where you've got your couples or throuples. Presumably you work with a multitude of people here. Yeah, I've Xanet Pailet: never worked with a throuple as a. I'd love to, but I never have. I've got a couple of friends who are in throuple relationships and Joanne Lockwood: I've never got any further than just going, okay, if it works for you. I've never, never, never really done a Q and A about it. But yeah, it's. I guess in those dynamics that means you've got either more outlets to have different sort of relationship and it doesn't. They're not necessarily orgies, are they throuples? They could be one to one relationships within a certain couple. I think if you're in a throuple. Right. You know, by, Xanet Pailet: by definition you are probably in a place where there's a lot of good communication happening around your sex life because you wouldn't be there, you couldn't be there if that wasn't happening. Right. Like that is, you know, one of the strengths of the poly open relationship community is people tend to have very, very good communication skills and they're very transparent about what's happening. Which is why, you know, I wouldn't expect to see a throuple necessarily show up in my office for what I work on. I could see them throwing. Showing up in other offices. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I was just also just thinking there that I would imagine that there are some people who have a fantasy or a desire that they feel is too much, either embarrassed to share it or that they think it would. We talked about in the beginning, shame, all these sort of things going On. If I say this would turn me on, they're scared the other person might go, oh, wow, that's a bit. Not sure about that. Oh, it sounds a bit icky to me. But that's really where their head is. You know, they went through the mechanical stuff when they were having children. And, you know, you have to do one of these and one of these and one of these to get. To get children. But when you're after that, you think, actually, what I really desire is this, but I don't know how to approach that. Does your intimacy survey allow that to come out, or is that still a. That's not. Like, Xanet Pailet: that would not be in this particular quiz. Because I think that would be, you know, I mean, for me, from where I'm at, I think that would cause a lot of potential conflict in a couple, and then there's nobody there to help facilitate that conflict. Right. And so I don't want to set people up where they have to, you know, go find a therapist, because all of a sudden they're fighting because, you. Know, these boxes that said, but it Joanne Lockwood: has a fantasy. Yes, yes. Right. I mean, maybe that would be a better business Xanet Pailet: model, but that's not how I. But I will say that that happens. That shows up all the time. In fact, we always talk about that. I probe about that. We explore that in my work that I do with couples, because very often, that is one of the pieces where there is a lot of shame. And 99% of the time, like, at least what the fantasy that they have is nothing crazy, right? But they've just, like, are so afraid that their partner thinks that they're gonna be too big or too much or too we. And that all just comes from, like, you know, a shame. For me, that just comes from, like, a shame place. Right? But I really do help couples be able to be in a place where they can explore that with each other and have a conversation about it. And underneath the fantasy is really what we call the core desires, which are the emotions that you want to have when you're having sex. So what is it that's actually turning you on within that fantasy and understanding what that emotion is? Whatever it is, right. Then if you can't have that, if you can't accomplish that in. In that particular fantasy, because maybe it's a boundary for your partner, how else can you get that emotion met in your sex life? That's very important. That is like, the difference between sex is only okay or it's good to sex is amazing. And I want to Keep on having it. Because that emotional need of mine, which goes back to a core wound as a child, is actually being met and satisfied. And that is the basis of that turn on and that fantasy. So I really help couples, you know, I take them through some exercises and processes and conversations where we really pull that apart and really understand what's underneath and then how they can help each other meet that need, that emotional need during sex. Very powerful. So not every fantasy needs to manifest itself in Joanne Lockwood: reality, does it? Absolutely true. You could keep the fantasy as a sexting or a flirting or a sort of like, like all that tension. You hint, you go, well, we're gonna be doing this. Wow. But the actual reality is it never gets to that point. You then break and go vanilla if you like or whatever it may be. Yeah, I mean some fantasies Xanet Pailet: are better. Leftist fantasies. Like I've had that experience, you know, of like a fantasy that I thought I wanted and then we started doing it and I freaked out and I was like, yep, nope, that's not gonna work. That was all better left as a fantasy. Right. And that's okay. Joanne Lockwood: Sexy movies is perfect, isn't it? It's, it all always works out. The coupling happens easily. There's no kind of. Xanet Pailet: And then there's fireworks. I'll be back. Fireworks every single time. Everybody has an orgasm simultaneously. So unrealistic. Joanne Lockwood: I know, I know. But yeah, so, so, so sometimes fantasies are better off just Xanet Pailet: kept as fantasies. You could use it for your own turn on, for masturbating. Some people go into fantasy during sex. Like that's helpful for them. And if, if they do, I'm like, okay, that's fine. Like whatever you need to get you there is completely appropriate and acceptable. Right. So fantasy isn't cheating then? Not in my mind at all. But some people do feel that's cheating. That is one of the issues that will come up on a not infrequent basis. Like if I have a fantasy, it feels like I'm cheating. And so it's my job to say, yeah, no, like no fantasies turn ons. This is you soothing your childhood wounds. Let's really talk about this. Let's understand where this is coming from and why this is a turn on for you and for your partner to understand that as well. But you know, I, I don't see that as cheating at all. No, but I'm very open, I'm very sex positive. Like I have no judgement. Right. I mean, you know, you come into my office, you talk to me, you read my book, it's A judgement free zone, like a hundred percent. It is. You know, I don't judge anybody for what their desires are, whatever it is. Yeah, no, Joanne Lockwood: I can imagine. If you're, you're using some sort of porn in your masturbation routine, then by definition that is not the part. Unless your partner's giving you the porn to look at or to experience, it's generally somebody else in those images, whatever it may be. So if you can rationalise that as not cheating, then that's not cheating. But yeah, at the point you're being intimate, if you're imagining the person you're being intimate with is actually somebody else, then that, that's where it becomes a bit confusing, I guess. I think, you know, again, that's, you know, Xanet Pailet: depending on where you are in your relationship and where you are in your level of communication. Do you want to share that? Not everything has to be shared either. I'm very clear. I'm very clear with people like, you know, you get to hold on to your own stuff. Right. And you don't have to share everything with your partner if it doesn't feel. I mean, I feel like the more disclosure you have, the more connected you'll feel with your partner. But not everything has to be disclosed around, around fantasies. Is it, is it pretty evenly balanced between Joanne Lockwood: genders of couples where it's generally it's either the male or the female. We're talking about heteronormative relationships here where typically both of them have an issue or is it often one sided? Is it after childbirth? Is it stress? We seem to have lost Janae, so I'm going to hang on here in case she comes back. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. You'll reappear and we'll carry on where we were. That was weird. Yeah. You're back. Xanet Pailet: Okay. Is that gonna. Because you gotta, you gotta go. So should we Joanne Lockwood: just. I do get, get to the close. Yes. Do you wanna, do you wanna give me like a final takeaway? Yeah, things, Things to think about and then I'll, I'll go. So who are you? How do people get hold of you? Okay, Xanet Pailet: great. I'll. Thank you. And. Yeah. How's that? Yeah, I think, you know, at the end of the day, what, what underlies all of having more intimacy and, and, and more connection with your partner is first good communication. And though we didn't really talk about this much emotional safety, which is a huge reason why couples are feeling disconnected and are not having sex and don't feel like they can actually have a real conversation with each Other because what they say might be used against them or weaponized and they've been shut down before. Right. Or criticised. Like there's a million defence coping mechanisms that people use. But those are the two most important to me. Those are the foundational elements that and I focus on in my coaching and my book around being able to create more intimacy in a long term relationship. Tonight is Joanne Lockwood: been absolutely fascinating. I we could talk all day and I was in danger of sharing too much of my own love. As we were going through that I thought well I better not say that but let's not say that. Let me save that for my own. But no, it's been absolutely fascinating. It's been really great. How do people get ahold of you and find out more? Yeah. So the best way Xanet Pailet: to get hold of me to find out of my book is called the Sex and Intimacy Repair Kit and you can pre order it on Amazon and Jo will have the link in the show notes. But the best way to get a hold of me and find out about my programmes that I offer in my book is to go to this website, howtoimprovemylovelife.com how to improve my lovelife.com where you will also find the quiz and then you'll get lots of information on also how to connect with me. Brilliant, brilliant. How to improvebylovelife.com that'll be in the show notes and Joanne Lockwood: I'm going to go and cheque it out in a minute and I think if you listen to this you should too and find that quiz because even if you're not having trouble with new relationship, you might find something in the quiz that will spark something new and keep it, keep it, keep the juices flowing for longer as they say. We love that. Xanet, thank you so much. Thanks Xanet Pailet: Jo. As we bring this conversation to Joanne Lockwood: a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world. One episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.