---
title: "Men Beyond Survival"
episode: 205
date: 2026-04-16
guest: "Tom Gold"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/205-men-beyond-survival
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-205/audio.mp3
---

# Men Beyond Survival

In this episode, Joanne Lockwood speaks with bushcraft instructor and life coach Tom Gold about men’s wellbeing, identity, and the pressures that shape how men show up in the world. The conversation centres on the idea of moving beyond performative toughness and creating spaces where men can be present without having to fix, explain, or always speak. Tom shares how his work outdoors, especially with men in recovery, uses practical wilderness skills, fire-making, and shared activity to build confidence, resilience, and belonging. He describes how campfire settings can make it easier for men to connect, listen, and speak when they are ready, while also offering a healthier alternative to isolation or harmful influences. The episode also explores masculinity, male friendship, emotional expression, and the limits of advice-giving when someone simply needs to be heard. Joanne and Tom reflect on the importance of community, support, and understanding in helping men thrive, and on the need for inclusion work to recognise groups who may feel overlooked by broader conversations.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:50 — Exploring inclusion and belonging
- 06:24 — Value of outdoor adventures
- 10:08 — Discussing developing life skills
- 12:26 — Objecting to war games
- 16:10 — Transforming the old house
- 19:26 — Discussing men's mental health challenges
- 23:55 — Victorian heroes and mental health
- 25:56 — Early Neanderthals using fire socially
- 31:34 — Teaching outdoor survival skills
- 34:24 — Dealing with parenting stress
- 37:06 — Feeling overwhelmed and lost
- 41:43 — Experiencing conversations post-transition
- 43:30 — Importance of male friendships
- 46:12 — Flags and cultural symbols in Scotland
- 52:45 — Discussing Andrew Tate's influence
- 58:37 — Benefits of Bushcraft Outdoors
- 59:50 — Closing remarks and gratitude

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this. Journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 205 with the title Men Beyond Survival. I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Tom Gold. Tom is a Bushcraft instructor and life coach who helps men build real mental fitness in the outdoors, in the bar, beyond performative well being Talk. When I asked Tom to describe his superpower, he said that it is resetting in nature. One night out with a tarp, a notebook and sleeping bag and then coming back a new man. Hello, Tom, welcome to the show. Jo, thanks very much for having me

Tom Gold: on the show. And by the way, belated congratulations on 205 episodes. You've just passed your double century. That's brilliant. Yeah, it's been a real achievement going since

Joanne Lockwood: 2005. 2020, sorry, five coming up for six years ago. This was started pre Covid. Yeah, I've had a number of guests from all over the world. It's been fascinating and. And yourself, you know, very diverse guests from different or from different perspective. Different. Different. Different areas. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you, Tom. For those of you who listen to this and not watching, Tom is wearing a beanie and a jumper and he's happened to mention that he's in the middle of nowhere in some part of Scotland. So, Tom, where are you at the moment? Yeah, it's. It's a

Tom Gold: rural area just north of Glasgow. Little village called Balfron. I can see the Campsie Fells out of my window. They're a bit fogged in today. There's no snow up there. It's a very, very beautiful place. I'm extremely lucky, to be honest, Jo. And, yeah, this was my choice to. To live out here. I can walk out of my Door and be in forest, woodland, hills in no time flat. And that works. Works pretty good for me, definitely. So you, you work in the outdoors.

Joanne Lockwood: So you're a bushcraft instructor, life coach. Did the where you live influence what you do or does what you do influence where you live?

Tom Gold: I was pretty heavily influenced by my dad growing up. He had a still does. I still have him. He's still around. A really impressive range of skills. My dad can navigate by the stars, he can find wild edibles in their hedgerows, he could light a fire with all sorts of very primitive methodologies. And as a small kid growing up in Northamptonshire, which is where we were, there were always adventures. We were having bonfires, we were building dens, camps, doing crazy, dangerous things. We abseiled the local quarry on some ropes that dad had found at the dump. We paddled our leaky old inflatable dinghy down the longest canal tunnel in Britain. Yeah, there were great adventures growing up. I mean, you know, we were only little and it all felt pretty real and exciting and yeah, if there's one, I did, if you want to know where it started, it started with him, really. Fair play to him. And this is all

Joanne Lockwood: seek forgiveness rather than ask for, ask for permission. So you're just doing this and getting on with it and if someone chased you away, you just run away and go back another day. Well, in the summer holidays, which could

Tom Gold: seem quite long, I was lucky. I grew up in a little village and there were a lot of other boys. And my old man had this idea of forming a group with the boys and the dads in the summer holidays. And it was called the UDF Club, which stood for Utterly devoid of fear, which was something that came out of, I discovered later, the Eagle comic, long since defunct, which dad had read as a boy. So only people who were utterly devoid of fear could deal in on these adventures. And it would always end up with a picnic somewhere, but would involve some death defying health and safety vortex of a adventure. And I look back on all those times just with great fondness and happiness. And it formed a kind of blueprint for when it was my turn to be a dad, you know, I mean, moving forward a few years, you know, I gave a few more nods to health and safety than my father did. But I think looking back on that, for all the jokes he made about our slim chances of success and almost certain doom, dad never took his eye off the ball, you know, I always knew that if it came to the crunch, he'd bring us through it sometimes it was a close run thing, but I learned a lot about trust that way as well. I knew what it was to trust someone and I learned early in life what it took to, to elicit that in other people, what you needed to do. So yes, it was, yeah, it was, you know, it was a happy childhood and it's influenced a lot of what's happened in later years. Definitely. Do we do enough of that

Joanne Lockwood: in the modern world? I mean, having everything you're saying there and the way you learned those skills from your father and you'll pass them on to your, I guess, your sons and your children and the work you do now, are we living too much behind computer screens in houses and we're not getting out there and taking risks and challenging ourselves physically and mentally in that way? Yeah, I think, you know, your listeners and

Tom Gold: viewers will be expecting the crusty looking old guy with a white beard and woollen hat to have some very clear views on that. And yeah, I do think there's still tremendous value in it. It can be tempered with health and safety. But the idea of the, you know, weekend or Saturday morning adventure, I think it's still eminently doable. I mean, a lot of the work that I've done in the past and continue to do with young people and with some, what seemed to me very young dads is empowering them with the skills to, you know, to say, right, here's what we're doing this weekend, you know, we're going to make a wee fire out here, we'll toast some marshmallows, maybe we'll find some animal tracks, whatever. And then, you know, what if the rest of the weekend is spent with everyone on their screens? It's still a win, it's still a win for the team and it builds really, really powerful memories that you carry forward with you. I mean, ask me how I know that into later life. One of the, I think it is the most like, pleasing bit of feedback I ever got was from a young man who'd been in a drugs and alcohol recovery group. He'd had his, his difficulties and challenges, that's for certain. He hadn't had any unsupervised time with his five year old son in three years, which was shocking because to me he seemed like a young guy. Anyway, as part of the session that we were doing larger group, we ended up making pizzas on the campfire. It just turned out that's what we were doing. And he wrote to me a week later because he'd had his first unsupervised visit with his son and he said, this weekend we went out and we made pizzas on the fire and I just thought, that's fantastic. He will, the little guy will remember that for a long time that dad showed up with all the goods and the two of them had a fantastic first day out. I couldn't have been happier for this guy, you know, it was well done to him. Yeah, I still think about that now. It was a couple of years back, but yeah, well done to the brother. I sincerely hope things continue to work out for him. Children, in

Joanne Lockwood: my view, definitely need mum time and dad time. They're different sorts of experiences. And we hear the jokes that dad will bring you back filthy and mum will bring you back sort of clean and things like this. But I look at the way some of the things my children remember, they remember a time with me when they were younger going camping not alone but in a group with other, other kids and their, and their male figure in their life and they remember those times and you bring them back alive and filthy and they've had a real whale of a time. And I think kids just need to have that outdoor experience where they are closer to the edge and not cocooned a little bit and that helps them grow. Yeah, I think

Tom Gold: with find out a lot that, that way. I remember the dilemma I had when I found out my boys and their pals aged anywhere between 5 and, no, I think they're a little bit older than that. The little group aged between about 6 and 9 had been exploring a ruined castle that's all fenced off not far from here, which had involved climbing quite high, very high into some of the windows. I mean, the whole building was condemned. And yeah, it was a dilemma for me because on the one hand I felt that's exactly what they should be doing. They should be exploring these things and finding out what danger and a little bit of fear actually feels like. But on the flip side of the coin, yeah, the place could have tumbled down on them at any time. They were taking some appalling risks. But this is, you know, in my view, how they develop some of those skills that will see them through later life. You know, they've got to know that difference between saying, yeah, I think, I think this is okay, and no, we should stop here and turn it around. If you've not experienced those things, it's a lot harder to make an informed judgement call on that. You know, if you've never sort of felt your knees shaking as you sort of crawl across a very narrow object that's very high up then. Yeah, I think it's going to be a lot harder to make those judgement calls later. That probably sounds spectacularly irresponsible, but yeah, what happened was myself and Jack and Nicholas, we had a long talk about it afterwards, about how safe they felt and did they think this was a good thing to do. You know, at the end of the day they'd gone out for an adventure, gone exploring with their friends. You know, I thoroughly approved. Yeah, I'm with you again

Joanne Lockwood: on this. And I think that squeaky bum time is a learning opportunity because we don't learn without making mistakes or without having a reflection on something without looking back on it. And I look at some of the things I've done, I've done static wires across courtyard in a castle in Poland and this was like 50 metres across. Okay. I was clipped on, I couldn't go anywhere. But when you get to that middle of the wire and the wire gap between the wire you're holding onto at the top and where you are stretches and you're then suddenly right the tips of your fingers trying to cross this, you need those moments to sort of appreciate that feeling that reality, don't you? Yeah,

Tom Gold: they're moments of growth, I really believe that. And they can't really be experienced any other way. You know, I was saying that, you know, I took a very sort of kind of open minded view of some of the risks the boys were taking. But I do remember when I found out they were playing Call of Duty with their friends and I said that I didn't want that. I certainly didn't want it happening in our house because taking one look at this game, it basically trivialised death. Their great grandfather gave his life fighting for our country. He would have been horrified because this was actually, it was a version of the D day landings. I think I said your great grandfather was actually there. He would turn in his grave to think that this had been turned into a game. So it wasn't the fact that it's quite gory and bloody, it was the fact that it really trivialised a sort of a moment that changed history. That, you know, so many like really tremendous, very brave men, you know, went across the Channel that day, their great granddad amongst them. And this was my objection to it. Just the trivialization of something so important. I said that as a recompense we could try in the little workshop I had in the garage to recreate some of the weapons and equipment that were featured in the game which my now ex wife was Furious about. But I didn't want them playing Call Of Duty. It just, you know, it didn't. On a variety of levels, didn't sit right. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. As you say, it's trivialising a.

Joanne Lockwood: A really sad time, but also it trivialises what people sacrifice and. And what's going on at times, isn't it? So no

Tom Gold: attaching a score to it. Yeah. You know, making it competitive. You know, this is how many people you. You killed.

Joanne Lockwood: Or you get killed yourself and you come back to life again straight away and it's. It's not reality. Is a. It's not reality. I guess maybe that desensitises people to knife crime and gun crime. You're so used to respawning when you get killed and then suddenly you walk in the streets with a knife or you're in gang violence and you're. Becomes more trivial because you're so used to being killed or killing.

Tom Gold: Well, I do wonder. That's behind some of it. Scotland, where I live, has a long and very unhappy history of knife crime going back quite some years. I attended a session given by a youth outreach organisation in Glasgow about this sort of endemic knife crime in a part of the city called Easter House, which was absolutely chilling. A number of young men who were dying over nothing. Over nothing of any tangible value. They weren't even fighting over sort of drug territories or money or anything. Absolutely horrific. Yeah. I mean, that's another storey. But these were boys in their teens with, you know, their whole lives in front of them and for. Yeah, reasons I still don't fully understand. You know, for some years there, it was absolute carnage. Some very brave people took it upon themselves to turn that around with this outreach programme. I don't think I've ever been more impressed by anything in my life because they could have just left. They could have just got to live someplace else. Yeah, that was. Yeah, impressive. So that might be a bit of a tangent, Jo. No, not at all. It's worth exploring

Joanne Lockwood: that. One of the things we'll talk about before we click the record button is that you have struggling to come to terms with the fact that your. Your. Your boys, which we've been talking about, have now become men. What do you mean by that? Yeah. I always wanted to be a

Tom Gold: dad. I'd always wanted to have sons as a first choice. I think I would have done a pretty good job if I'd had girls. But I feel exceptionally lucky. I had two fine, healthy little boys. They're 18 and 19 now, and based on the blueprint I got from my dad. We spent a lot of time doing, you know, crazy things. We went on lots of adventures in our canoe in the. The lochs around here. We built dens, we lit fires, we camped out with their friends and it was. It was a lot of fun. Endless nonsense. And also that role of being their dad. You know, when their mum and I split up and I moved in here, the house was. It looked very, very sad. It hadn't been lived in for a long time and it was nothing like the place they'd, you know, that their mum still had. And I said, our job here is to make this into the coolest house in the street. So, you know, that is our mission. So we're going to make furniture, we're going to redecorate, we're going to do a lot of this stuff. And it felt like a. Again, it felt like a bit of an adventure. We even had a long discussion about what we should call it. And we came up with the awesome House as its official name, which they're very embarrassed to be reminded about now in front of their friends. And, yeah, they've both. They've both moved out, moved on. That is sad. You know, I have recollections of the, you know, crazy stuff we did and I realised that's a chapter that's now closed. How they turned right in front of my eyes into, you know, confident young men and now they're. They're running their own thing. And, yeah, that's been a little bit difficult sometimes. And I have to be very conscious, not when we're together, not to be constantly harking back to those times, which for them are now the sort of dim, distant past. For me, they're some of the happiest moments of my life. And that can be a little bit difficult. And for reasons I'm still not absolutely sure about, I still worry about them a lot. You know, they don't need anyone to do that for them, but I still do. I try and keep the lid on it and, you know, I'm not, like, expressing that to them. So, yeah, it's been. It's been tough. You know, I'm still their dad. My role has changed now. I'm there to sort of support and encourage and assist where I can, but the decisions, well, they're pretty much all theirs. That's really the way it's. It's got to be. But I even miss little things, like, you know, at 9:30 each night we'd have countdown to initiate Wi Fi. Shutdown where I'd pull the router and, like, take it to bed with me. And there'd be this, you know, big countdown or sort of pizza nights when we used to make our own pizzas or what they christened sad Chinese, which was when the Chinese takeaway, which we didn't use very often here, shut. And I said, well, hey, don't worry, I can do Chinese. Anyway, it was christened sad Chinese because Dad had made it. Yeah, I miss those things a lot. But, you know, I got to remember that we did most of it in order to encourage them to be the independent men that they are now. So, yeah, this was the trade off. It's difficult. Some days it's difficult, but, you know, this is what I wanted. This is what we worked for. So, yeah, my youngest, Nicholas, got himself into a lot of trouble some years back, which, yeah, a tremendous amount of stress and worry for me. I honestly didn't know if he was going to survive his teens or whether he'd actually end up doing time. And I think as dads were fitted with a can't quit switch. It's like a wiring problem that just doesn't let you walk away. You are stuck with it until you win or it ends. And that was hard because obviously I couldn't give up on Nicholas. But yeah, he put us through it and no mistake. Yeah, we're out the other side.

Joanne Lockwood: In the intro, I use the word performative. And we've talked about this in our briefing call before this and when we first got on before we press record. The challenge at the moment is men are being encouraged to speak up and have conversations and not be alone when they're suffering their mental health. And one of the things we talked about the other day when we did the briefing was the. The fact that not every man wants to speak and have a Kumbaya, sit around and share all their feelings all the time. And so how do we as a society engage with people who are very introspective and not big talkers or make assumptions that they're suffering, maybe they're not. They can still be part of it even if they don't want to say

Tom Gold: anything. I've run a lot of men's groups, either like as actual men's groups or groups that turned out to be exclusively men. And you'll get a lot of guys who won't say anything, but, you know, they actually. They're in a good place because I run a lot of my sessions outdoors. You'll find some guys who just want to chop Wood or saw up timber and split it with an axe for sort of most of the session. Tender fire, etc. Just enjoy the space. And I'm totally okay with that. They are part of the group. They're contributing towards it. You know, they're sitting in with us and they're listening. If they're not ready to speak, that's absolutely fine. They certainly given to understand that they're not on their own while they're part of this. And when that guy, after sort of three sessions, you know, of saying nothing, clears his throat to speak, you know, it's going to be important. And if you've done your job right. If I've done my job right, then, you know, we've created that atmosphere where they feel okay to do that. And it's a funny thing that I've seen many times when somebody is brave enough to speak up and say, do you know what? I'm really struggling with this. Other people sitting around that same campfire will acknowledge it often in very subtle ways. It might be a sort of a clap on the shoulder. It might just be a nod, or they might just say, yeah, I get it, you know, or I'm dealing with the same thing. But I didn't want to say anything. So thank you for sharing. I think there's an understanding that we can't all fix it. You know, we can't fix this for each other. But that sense of community can make a huge difference. You know, you're not the only person dealing with it. So, yeah, I think that pressure to talk more. I find it unhelpful at times. Men need to talk more. This is the message being pushed by DEI. And there aren't that many guys, men working in DEI. So I do sometimes wonder if, you know, people are just picking up on this popular trope, this comfortable, cartoonish image of a man who, you know, he can't cook. He might take six weeks to put up a set of shelves and he doesn't talk about stuff. And I think pushing that image, that gives men permission to deal out, you know, because they can revert to this, hey, I'm not going to tell you, I'm a typical bloke. So I'm not going to engage with this for the same reason that I can't make a shepherd's pie without screwing the whole thing up or needing a tremendous fanfare to accompany it because they've. They've done this. It's a comfortable kind of vision. There was something in the news recently complaining about Peppa Pig. And Daddy Pig, who is this well meaning, useless buffoon who, you know, gets everything wrong in a domestic sense. And you know what, it's giving people permission. And I don't know that it. I sometimes talk about a thing called the Man Code, which, you know, has a few very simple tenets, which is project outward strength at all times, tell everyone you're fine and keep the lid nailed down tight shut on all the sort of clamour in your head. And the reason that we still do this is, firstly, it's really, really easy. It's not difficult to follow the Man Code and it certainly isn't difficult to, you know, follow that popular trope of being a guy who doesn't talk about stuff and, you know, doesn't deal well emotionally. And it's been tremendously successful in the past. You look at some of the history's great men. They were, you know, often appear outwardly as very emotionally closed off people. History now tells us that a lot of them did have some sort of significant mental health problems going on. And I think, you know, some of the sort of heroes of the Edwardian and Victorian era, if they were sort of more closely examined now, we'd find that they had, you know, a whole host of sort of mental illness issues going on. But the Man Code allowed them to navigate that and achieve greatness at the same time. And this is what we remember them for and this is, you know, in a way, why we use them. But it always makes me think when I read about these guys, and they do, because they love sort of true life adventure storeys, what else they could have achieved if they weren't dealing with all the sort of the demons in their head, if they weren't constantly suppressing those, if they had an outlet for them, if they were able to, you know, achieve a little bit more emotional coherence, sometimes called vulnerability. Not a word I'm particularly fond of, but there it is. And this is something that I like to, you know, present to, to some of the guys I work with now. You know, as they're thinking about what you can achieve or what your employees can achieve. You know, if they're not dealing with this, you know, a lot of them are already doing pretty well. You've got to wonder how much better, how much better they could do. So, yeah, I think that's part of. Your Bushcraft, your outdoors activities. Is this where you take people

Joanne Lockwood: out into the. Into the wild and return them a bit to nature? It's not really the wild, Jo. I mean, we're

Tom Gold: Extremely blessed here in Scotland in that, you know, our biggest cities are ringed at the very closest edge by beautiful scenery countryside, woodland hills. So escaping from the city is pretty easy. And finding places to bring a group together that doesn't involve a lot of travel, it's quite easy here. We also have some unique access to the outdoors, rights of access to the outdoors that make these things easier. The sort of focal point is a fire with a kettle hanging over it and a group of people sitting in a circle round it. And that is a meeting format. That's roughly, if you subtract the kettle, roughly 400. That's when it's now believed the first early Neanderthals were deliberately creating fire as a sort of focal point. And we can see minor digression here. We often think of the discovery as fire as leading to cooked meat, which enhances the protein uptake and makes you more intelligent using fire to harden wooden weapons and later to create metal. The first real spin off benefit of that discovery was social because for the first time our ancient ancestors had a reason to come together when it was cold and it was dark. And that format, the fire, where people round it in a circle, is more or less identical to that. And I think somehow we have some sort of genetic memory for it, which is why I've never had to tell a group of people to form a circle around the fire. Everybody knows that bit. There will always come a point in that session where no one's saying anything and everyone's just looking inward at the fire. It's a very captivating thing to look at, particularly as it gets dark and you watch the sparks twist up into the night. It's a great thing and it's worked for 400,000 years. So creating that environment, very, very straightforward. And it's a real pleasure to share the skills that go into doing it, because this is something I want them to take away and use. But it's also kind of an elemental format as well, and it encourages people to be more talkative. I've seen that many, many times. Guys who wouldn't speak up in a room with white walls, with all the chairs in a circle, can become a lot more thoughtful, philosophical and vocal in that environment. Maybe it just speaks to them, can't be absolutely certain, but I've just seen it work so many times, which is why I do like to use it. It's not the most practical way of doing things. This is the format in which we're speaking now. But given the choice, Jo, we would have headed out into the woods. I'd have put up a tarp, we'd have hung the kettle over the fire, then we'd have talked completely. I mean, I've

Joanne Lockwood: spent many, many nights around a campfire, around a fire. And as you say, there's something really hypnotic about sparks. The embers, the flames dancing, the crackle, and that kind of innate instinct to just burn stuff. You know, it's. Everyone becomes a pyromaniac. Can we burn this? Will this burn? Wonder what happens if. What happens if I put a. An empty bottle of Heineken? Will the glass melt? Will the can catch fire? And should we just try a little bit of paraffin in there or maybe a little bit of diesel or petrol and see what happens? Or get the lighter fluid out and squirt it and see if we can make a jet of flame or something? Or the aerosol can comes out and we end up with the flames. Yeah, but that. It's. It's that fascination with being outdoors and the fire and the flame and experimenting with that. That element, as you say. Well, yeah, you are

Tom Gold: indulging in and sharing in something that our, you know, early Neanderthal ancestors did the same thing. They must have been similarly fascinated. You know, what can we burn next? Will this work? What happens if we do this? At some point, someone will have discovered that wafting air at the fire, using a, you know, a flat surface, will actually make it bigger. And, you know, they will have discovered the sort of properties of various natural resources. Some are going to burn real good, some are just gonna, you know, take you all night to make a fire with. And. Yeah, absolutely. You're seeing that exact same fascination, experimentation and, you know, sometimes just joyfulness that comes with that is priceless. We're experiencing something that. And this is why I think it's somehow it's in us. You know, maybe on a sort of genetic level, it's passed on this fascination for it.

Joanne Lockwood: I think it's the same reason. Warmth, social. It's safety, it's light, it generates so many things at a very basic level, isn't it? And as you're talking, I'm remembering a holiday that I went on with my family and a friend's family. So there was four of us. Four of them. We had a cottage in. I think it was Majorca, and it had a bit of farmland around it, a bit of waste ground. Adjacent to the building was an outdoor barbecue, which was a brick built with a roof and it had a chimney at the top of it. And I remember we we were left, my friend and I, we were left alone with the kids that night whilst our partners went off into town and for their night out and we started cooking on this barbecue. And then all of a sudden we just wanted. It started going out, so we wanted to burn something else. We were out at Coles and we found all these bits of wood in this, in this waste ground around the property and we kept bundling things on and bundling things on. Eventually we got this real roaring fire going in this barbecue area and we got to the point where flames are coming out of the top of the chimney. And we were really pleased with ourselves that we'd managed to get the fire really, really roaring up there. And then we started reflecting. Let's hope the chimney doesn't catch fire. And I think the only thing that really stopped us was we ran out of wood, we ran out of combustible material and we, we were. I think if we'd have drunk a bit more, we would have seriously gone inside and maybe dismantle the dining room table if we were that. That keen to burn something else. But it was, it's a. And I. I've been on a number of camping trips and, and barbecues and away weekends where that, that draw and I think, as you say, it's the. That real elemental primaeval draw for light safety, protection and cooking and all these sort of things come together. And this fire is something we need to tame.

Tom Gold: Absolutely. And to be able to pass on the really relatively straightforward technical processes that it takes to create it out of nothing, even if you were just out in the woods, is, you know, one of the most pleasurable parts of what I do is seeing people go away thinking, wow, you know, I could do this at the weekend, you know, with, with the girlfriend, with the kids, with whoever, maybe just on my own, you know, I can find a little bit of space out there away from everybody and I can just, you know, be alone with, with my thoughts. A lot of the work I do is with people. Their recovery journeys from drugs and alcohol and the ability to create a warm, dry outdoor space out of some very, very ordinary, cheap items gives them another place to go when it gets difficult. That isn't, I don't know, the betting shop, their ex wife's place or the pub. You know, it's empowering them with this, you know, knowledge and this idea that, wait a minute, I can take myself away from all of this if I want to. There is a place I can go. And it feels so suitably, suitably manly. You know, because the majority of people, certainly here in Scotland who, you know, find their way into these programmes are men. And it's been an absolute pleasure to share the campfire with so many of them now. I find them just the best company, perhaps, you know, one of the things that makes them unique is people who are recovering from sort of drugs and alcohol addiction are fantastic at looking after each other. It's something they do better than any other group that I've worked with together. They're unbeatable and very, very strong. And being in their company while they support one another is quite a powerful thing, actually. Yeah. Been a great pleasure many times, empowering them with that knowledge and that understanding that, absolutely goddamn right you can do this. And it's a huge win as well, if you make that work, you know, especially for a group of other people. Well, you're a flipping hero, you know. Oh, wow, well done. Or to be able to say, look, don't worry, I got this, I'll fix it. I can make us a fire, no problem, and then we'll stay warm, you know, for as long as we want to be out here. That's great. You know, you go home as the guy who did, and if it's been a long time or a while since you last had a win or you had people saying, well done, thank you, then that's huge, you know, hopefully makes people think about other areas of their life where they can show up, you know, similarly, do we. It's

Joanne Lockwood: a problem sometimes is when. When we're. When we're getting into these conversations, do we want to try and fix the people we're talking to? And I hear a lot of time where it's really hard to just talk without somebody trying to cure you or give you a solution. Absolutely. Is that why people don't want to talk? Because they don't need fixing, they just want someone to listen to them sometimes. I couldn't agree

Tom Gold: with you more. I mean, going back to when my youngest was getting into a lot of trouble, it was causing me a tremendous amount of stress, is putting a big strain on my relationship. And I had a lot of people in the end, you know, I was very careful about who I told about this because people were very close to me. Friends were saying, well, here's what you need to do, or this is what I do in your shoes, or what I think you need to do is. Or I wouldn't put up with that. And none of it was helpful, Absolutely none of it. But this is kind of a blokeish way of addressing another man's problems, to offer comparison and advice. We can do a lot more by active listening, you know, perhaps an acceptance that you can't fix this straight away, but you can show up for that other guy. Because just physically showing up for me is 90% of it. You know, go to see that guy who's struggling, you don't have the answers, but he knows you showed up and it counts for a tremendous amount, you know, trying to. Trying to understand the problem rather than constant sort of advice and sort of comparison, which, you know, I found extremely unhelpful at a time when I was already very stressed out. But, yeah, I mean, that's a fantastic point you make, and I don't know if you'd agree, but I think that's a sort of typically blokeish way of trying to help another man, is by, you know, advice as if it was a blocked sink trap or, you know, a faulty carburetor or whatever, or a radiator that needed bleeding or something. It's not always the same. I appreciated the support, but I couldn't make use of any of it, really. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: because we joke about mansplaining, you know, men explaining things to women, but men explain things to other men. It's not just. It's almost like an ingrained habit or way men are brought up in order to know what they're talking about, be in control, having an answer for everything, being the protector, being the provider and that pressure. So almost like you feel like you have to have an answer. If someone's coming to you saying, I've got a problem, I can fix it for you. And it's not just men's men to women, as I say, it's men wanting to show that they have a capability and a value in this world. Absolutely. I remember it

Tom Gold: wasn't long after I moved in here, I just split up with the boys. Mum. My life was in an absolute turmoil. This place just looked terrible. It hadn't been lived in for a long time. I had the boys round that weekend and my dad and his partner decided to visit to help out. Well, gosh, it was difficult and I thought, now I've got to keep them occupied as well. So I said, right, we're going to build a boot bench for the hall and long storey short. My stuff was in such a mess, I couldn't find any of the things that I was looking for and I was trying to keep everybody occupied and happy and I was just. I was in a very, very sort of precarious state myself at the time. And I went into the garage to look for some screws, which I couldn't find because it was just piled up with boxes. And for the first time in my life, I just sat down on the stool in the corner and I just didn't know what to do next. For the first time ever, just couldn't think of anything. The next step had just completely eluded me. Everyone was probably wondering where it was gone. I don't even know how long I'd been there when my dad came in and found me. And he didn't have any words. He just put his hand on my shoulder. That was it. And that's, you know, that's showing up. He couldn't fix this for me. He'd come to help, and I really appreciated it, but actually, his, you know, assistance was. Yeah, but, yeah, he just came and stood next to me. Just put my hand. His hand on my shoulder. You know what? I got it. I got it. Thanks, dad. You know, let's get back to it. I'll find the screws. That knowing silence isn't it.

Joanne Lockwood: That is that just knowing that you know that I know that you know that I know. We don't need to say anything about this. It's just

Tom Gold: absolutely. Yeah, you know what? I've probably. We've never talked about that since. I should probably tell him sometime soon how very much I appreciated it was. You know, I was able to take a breath. I knew he had my back. We both know he couldn't fix it all. But, yeah, it was okay. I said, thanks, dad. Yeah, well, we'll find the screws. They're in here somewhere. And we got on with it. He's not an especially emotionally coherent man. He lost his father in the war. He was told very early in life that he had to be a brave little soldier and, you know, crack on and stuff like, you know, so many men of his generation. So I knew, you know, I knew what to expect from him and what not to expect on a sort of supportive level. And, yeah, he showed up in a fantastic way. You know, I think sometimes it's tempting to see people see the way men support one another as being very poor. They're being a great poverty in the way that we do that. But I've seen many times, not just my own experience, those small gestures, they just say, I see you. You know, I get it. I'm here. That's about it. But to me, that's like 90% of it. There is a fascinating video you might remember this show show, roughly 80s. This Is Your Life with Eamonn Andrews. Every week he would surprise some celebrity and then they'd come into the studio and they would bring people from their past in to talk to them. One time they did wartime fighter ace Douglas Bader, a man who was very emotional. Tin legs, yes, both his legs in a flying accident before the war, then went on to be this tremendous hero. You know, he was a sort of cold, you know, emotionless. Appeared to be a cold, emotionless sort of fighting man, you know, who just had his, his job to do and stuff and yada yada. But they brought in members of his old squadron and it's worth looking it up because it is on YouTube. The way they greet each other. These aren't emotionally coherent men at all. They're almost cartoonish by today's standards in their inability to discuss their feelings because it was something that they never did. But if you watch the video, you can find it easily enough. The way they greet one another is massively significant. They shake hands, they incline their heads towards one another and there's an arm clasp on the other hand. And to me it's conveying a great depth of understanding and closeness. They'd shared horrendous times together, they didn't hug each other, they weren't those sort of men. And there wasn't any sort of gushing, tearful, God, it's so good to see you. None of that was present. But for someone who, I don't know knows what to look for, or for someone who believes that men don't communicate with each other very well, watch that. It's. You can almost feel it, you know, there's such a depth of emotion in there. Yeah, it's special. Very, very interesting. To me, I found that interesting and it speaks to the way men will often support one another in that showing up, you know, clap on the shoulder, I'm here, mate. Yeah, maybe not me, not maybe not many words being exchanged. Is it important, I don't know. To know that people have your back is important. So, yeah, I mean, for your

Joanne Lockwood: viewers. If they want to look that up, they'll find it. Well, I reflect on sort of the two halves of my life, you know, the male dominated life and now the female dominated life post gender transition and the conversations amongst in all male groups and the competition is in all female groups, you can tell the difference. There's a complete polar opposite. And women groups I'm part of will often talk about the feelings, the challenges they want to sort of share and support each other. Whereas the male groups I've been tend to talk about stuff, you know, football or car or what they're doing here and there and it's more, more of a nod and a yep, yep, yep. And it's, it's, there's less emotional giving in male conversations and I really see the polar difference. I find it personally much easier to be in female conversations where there are emotions being shared and there isn't more depth. And I find sometimes going back to my spending time with my male friends, I come away feeling unsatisfied because it's been very transactional, very. It's been okay, but there's been no emotional sharing. And yeah, there's definitely, you know, without going to stereotypes, there's a definite difference, which is why I'm a strong believer that you do need male only groups and female only groups to better communicate in the way that makes sense for that group. As soon as you mix the two groups together, conversation changes again. It ends up in the middle. Everything

Tom Gold: changes. Yeah, men's group is kind of a, it's a subtle, fragile thing. Yeah, absolutely concur. Jo can be very transactional, you know, without the emotional content. Unless it's people talking about stuff that angry about. That's usually quite sort of. Yes, you'll probably hear that. But yeah, on the other levels, yeah, not so much. But I do believe that, you know, that sense of community, getting that right, making that happen first, I do believe that's the greater part of it and it's what so many men are missing. The stats tell us that, you know, our dads had a lot more close male friends than we do in this generation. And that's, you know, numbers only getting smaller. The number of men who actually say they've got close friends in the first place. You know, I can't remember them all here, the stats, but it's, it's not great. And it's, it's, it's, it's still dwindling. So being able to create that space is difficult, but it's very, very, very important. And there's always a fear, I think, amongst men that they're going to be asked to do odd stuff like gongs, robes, role play or group hugs or if it's a men's group and there are groups that, yeah, a lot like that. But you know, for me it's a lot more straightforward than that. You know, an inspiring setting, a group of guys, something to actually do physically, you know, even if it's, you know, just taking down the timber to make that fire. And these can be priceless times. Fascinating. Yeah. There's perhaps not a sort of, you know, a great depth of emotional content, but it's community at the same time. It's just so important, he said there. That men feel passion when they tend to

Joanne Lockwood: be angry about. Are we seeing a rise in male disenfranchisation from the norm? If you like. We see patriotism with flags and roundabout painting. St. George's Cross. People get behind that, maybe borne out the fact that it's hard to be proud to be English. You can be proud to be Scottish, you can be proud to be Welsh, you can be proud to be Irish, but can you be proud to be English? Unless you're supporting a football team, but in the general run, and then you're seeing people who have a flag they can wave because they're queer. What can a white man wave? People have Ukrainian flags and Palestinian flags, but you can't have this, you can't have that. And you see the rise of the incel movement and that's showing that men feel disempowered or emancipated using their masculinity. Is that what's going on in the world at the moment? Yeah. Try to answer that on a few levels, Jo.

Tom Gold: Firstly, yeah, the. The flags thing's been massively divisive. And Whilst, yeah, that St. George's Cross can be a very divisive emblem, here in Scotland we have the saltire or the St. Andrew's Cross, but you can go through parts of Glasgow and see them flying on every lamppost. And they're there for the same reasons that, you know, we're seeing painted roundabouts and stuff in England. It's just that in Scotland, the Union Jack or the St. George's Cross has sort of political connotations that speak to the sort of Protestant Catholic divide that exists in certain parts of Scotland in a very, very clearly divided way. So they choose the saltire as a sort of symbol that unites, if you like. Yeah. I can remember furious rows online, which I tried to stay out of. Following the Unite the Kingdom maps, there were pictures of young guys draped in flags and they'd stopped at street vendor stand, who was still in falafel and samosas, and people were saying, oh, have they even noticed the irony? They were on their way back from the cricket, nobody would have turned a hair. Is it somehow ironic that they weren't eating chips? That the assumption that because they're wearing the St. St. George's Cross, they should be so overtly racist as to not even wish to eat anything made by a person of foreign descent or food that, you know, originates in another culture. I've never heard anything so utterly ridiculous. You know, the headline guy stops for something to eat on the way home from a. A match. You know, it's about all it was, but it's. It's difficult. I mean, perhaps we can, you know, Both remember the 2012 Olympics. The Union Jack was flying everywhere and it was like we had our flag back. We were united. Very, very proud of the fantastic job our athletes were doing because they were leading the field in the medals table for quite a while. What a great time that was. And, yeah, you know, it's like we had the flag back now it belonged to everybody. We could unite under it. I can't remember that, you know, since now. Yes, a big problem. Yeah, it's sad. You know, you want to talk about the Union Jack, you know, fascism was defeated by men who marched under that flag. Now they're Nazis. You know, I mentioned earlier my great grandfather, he would turn in his grave as well at the thought that, you know, after giving his life fighting the Nazis, you know, they had now been reinvented as the sort of the bogeyman in the country he was fighting for. It's sad. The flags, then men have an identity to gather under. No, I suppose not, actually. Tricky. I went to a diversity event in Edinburgh just a couple of weeks ago, and out of 45 people, I was one of three men in the room. You know, if we're not part of the conversation, we're not likely to reap too many of the benefits either. That's going to be tricky. It's interesting you say that, and I'm well aware that

Joanne Lockwood: most of the conversations I have for people tend to be women and people who are not white. So maybe you get black men or brown men in the room. It's very hard to engage the average typical white man in conversations because. I don't know, because maybe you have an inkling, but it seems to be that the conversations aren't relevant to them. They're not brown, they're not black, they're not this, they're not that. And all the initiatives in D and I seem to be promoting women, promoting black people, promoting queer people, whatever it may be. Who's there fighting for the white man? Is that the problem, that people go, well, can't be for me then, can it? Yeah, perhaps part of the problem is that

Tom Gold: the white man is always, by definition, fine, obviously, even though, you know, he's coming home to teenage children who no longer speak to him or a menopausal wife who he doesn't fully understand. He's under enormous pressure at work, but he can't say anything about that because he needs to show up as a competent, capable team member and he doesn't have as many friends as he used to. Yeah, really difficult. You know, if you put all those characteristics together, you think, yeah, this is probably someone who needs some, some help. And he's being told that

Joanne Lockwood: he needs to be an ally to everybody. Absolutely, yeah.

Tom Gold: What if you're not actually in a position to support other people right now? This assumption that part of your role now is to help dress address a gender imbalance in this business, in this company, whatever, by mentoring women so that they can be better represented on the top floor. Yeah. What if that guy isn't okay himself? What if he's struggling? Yeah, that's tough. But it would be a brave man to put his hand up and say, do you know what? I don't want anything to do with this. That's going to end badly. Been hearing more and more recently about the modern workplace's unreadiness for the influx of sort of non politically aligned but right wing leaning young men who are leaving school, who are in university and who will be beating a path to a workplace that is not ready for them, one that's geared to every other group but them. I think we're going to see some, yeah, some interesting, what would you call. It, exchanges just in collision

Joanne Lockwood: ideology, frank conversations. I think they need to be,

Tom Gold: to be wise to this. A lot of the young men that I meet and work with do have, you know, non political right wing views. They have so little faith in sort of politics. Perhaps they inherited it from their parents that they're not actual party politics doesn't interest them, but, you know, highly charged political issues do. And we're seeing this, this is why.

Joanne Lockwood: We're seeing people like Andrew Tate, the Incel movement, the United Kingdom, Tommy Robinson, these kind of figures that are giving people that belonging, people that are listening to their voices and saying, yeah, and I see myself represented. And that's even though maybe not politically aligned, but they are emotionally connected to these messages, aren't they? They are.

Tom Gold: And I think, yeah, I see a lot of this. Just not far from here in Falkirk is the clad hand. It's asylum seekers hotel. It's been the focus of a whole series of increasingly angry demonstrations recently. And a lot of angry young white men my son's age involved in It. Somebody is speaking to them, someone's saying, look, we need you. You're included. That's worrying. I think the Andrew Tate thing, he is offering something else. As I see it. I watched quite a lot of his content because my youngest son got very interested in Andrew Tate. So I thought, well, I'll try and understand who this guy is so we can have those conversations. People think that he's selling sexism, misogyny and just this really unpalatable version of a man. But I think what he's actually selling is freedom. If you make enough money, if you get yourself to a certain level, you can do and say exactly what you want. And he's done embodies that in everything he says and does. I think it goes way beyond the, yeah, you know, your woman's there to cook you a steak. It's. It's. I don't know, it's beyond that. It's getting to do and say exactly what you want. And this is exactly what he does. Yeah. You don't hear so much from him nowadays, but it's an absolutely fascinating guy. You can see the appeal. He's offering a blueprint. You know, here's the steps, guys. It won't be easy. In fact, it's going to be really difficult. It's going to cost you a lot in terms of relationships, friendships. But, you know, the reward is. Is this, you know, a guy who can.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, you need to be an alpha male. You need to behave like this, act like this and you will get what? What, Whatever you want. Yeah. You will

Tom Gold: be untouchable. It's compelling, highly compelling. But I think a lot of people only take what he's saying at face value. They hear the sort of. The snippets, the sort of. So people. Few people know what a misogynist is. It's a word that's got a lot more currency thanks to him. I mean, I'm not in any way excusing some of the things he's said, but I think he's offering a lot more than sexism and a return to sort of 70s and 80s male values. He's taken those on board and run with them to produce something. Yeah. Much more compelling and valuable. I mean, let's face it, I was.

Joanne Lockwood: Saying that if he is selling something that people are buying, they're buying it for a reason. They're disenfranchised with the status quo, with whatever's out there. So it's understanding why they're buying his brand. To understand where in society we need to Reconnect and understand what we're missing. And I think that's what we've been doing. Too busy focusing on maybe this DEI. Everyone's welcome, but forgetting about the people we're leaving behind who don't think it's for them, and no one is talking directly to them. And that's what we're doing here. The Andrew Tate characters, people who have these Tommy Robinson views, they're speaking to these people. Even Trump in the. In the US is speaking to a group of people who feel they're not being connected with. In the other view. Yeah, that's the challenge we've got to try and address. Yeah. And then. And again. Yeah. We have

Tom Gold: to remember that this is a client group that's, you know, traditionally quite difficult to reach. I mean, ask me how I know that. The idea that, you know, you're not. Fine, it's not, you know, it's not a natural state for sort of men of a certain age who were raised in a. A certain way. You know, it's. It's the man code. It's so easy to follow and it's so deeply hardwired. And it works. You know, you can get through. You can do more than get through. You can really succeed in life by following it. I mean, the fallout, the people around you and for yourself, can be fairly sort of catastrophic, but you can. You can achieve that way. But, yeah, I mean, I always come back to, you know, what more could achieve if you were a little. If you could stay strong and find peace at the same time. Is it too much to ask for both? It's a big part of what I try to help people with. I mean, I can mention this now, Joanne, because it would have passed by the time this show is aired, but in January, I'm putting together a men's retreat right here in Scotland. We've got the Rowardennan Lodge. Beautiful place on the shore of the East Loch Lomond. It's very, very peaceful. We're going to climb Ben Lomond. We're going to swim in the loch. We're going to chop wood and make fire. We're going to cook on it. We're going to do a walk with burning torches, which will be fun, and we may even on one of the evenings, sit down and watch a good old Arnie movie. Because I'm really interested to hear what people reflect on this now, you know, all these years later. But on another level, for guys, when was the last time they watched a, you know, one of those unbelievably foolish movies with a few beers and some other guys. So it will be about community, first and foremost. I'm really looking forward to it, actually. Conan the Destroyer or something, One of

Joanne Lockwood: those little old Arnie films. Yeah, I think I might have to go with

Tom Gold: Predator, which was like a real classic because it's just so unbelievably silly, but so much fun to watch because it's the collision of these alpha male ego types all at the same time against this deadly creature out in the jungle with loads of guns. I mean, yeah, it's actually something I'm looking forward to doing. I loved those movies as a young guy, so the chance to watch one with some of the guys, obviously we'll be doing some constructive stuff. I just thought I was going to throw that one in there just for just. Yeah, so even though. Even though

Joanne Lockwood: by the time it's broadcast that would have passed, you're. You're going to be planning others in the future, so it's a good excuse for people to get hold of you. So how can people connect with Tom? Yeah, thank you for

Tom Gold: asking, Jo. I'm pretty easy to find on LinkedIn. I post there quite regularly on some of the subjects we've been looking at today. You can also find me at BeyondtheMancave.co.uk a website or Instagram of the same name where I post workout and outdoor videos. All pretty wholesome, honest stuff. Nothing dodgy in there at all. Bear Grill

Joanne Lockwood: survival stuff, is it? Yeah, there's a. There's a little bit of that because I

Tom Gold: want people to understand how straightforward these things are, how easy they are to do and how ultimately rewarding they are when you go out there and share them. The outdoors will reduce your heart rate, blood pressure. You'll become more creative, thoughtful. You'll get more oxygen in your lungs, which makes your brain work better. It's why we feel better when we go out there. If you can make that experience comfortable at the same time, that's kind of what Bushcraft is, then you're going to be able to stay for longer and it will mean more. And if you can share that with other people at the same time, if you can be the one that takes care of them, well, it makes you a little bit of a hero too, for what that's worth. Yeah, I still think that's important. Tom, we've had a fascinating conversation. This has

Joanne Lockwood: been amazing. And if you're listening in, do make contact with Tom, Check him out on LinkedIn. I've been following Connecting with Tom for a little while now and that's probably how we really got engaged in this episode. Just saw Tom post a few things and I said, tom, let's come and talk about this. That's why you're here. So brilliant. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much. Well, Jo, can I thank you

Tom Gold: enough for having me on the show today? Really appreciate and I look forward to seeing it in a few months time. Well, by the time I'm saying this, it will be that time. Thank you.

Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share there? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.