--- title: "Centering The Margins" episode: 204 date: 2026-04-10 guest: "Nena Gilreath" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/204-centering-the-margins audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-204/audio.mp3 --- # Centering The Margins In this episode of The Inclusion Bites Podcast, Joanne Lockwood speaks with Nena Gilreath, co-founder of Ballethnic, about redefining ballet through African dance concepts, cultural truth, and community inclusion. The conversation explores how the company emerged from a desire to move beyond the traditional ballet mould and create a form that feels more expressive, accessible, and representative of a wider range of bodies and backgrounds. Nena shares the history of Ballethnic, including its roots in Atlanta, its creation of works such as The Leopard Tail and Urban Nutcracker, and its commitment to centring Black excellence and cultural relevance. She discusses the company’s approach to storytelling, choreography, costume, and live drumming, as well as the way these elements invite audiences and performers to participate more fully in the experience. The episode also covers the barriers Ballethnic has faced, from funding inequities and prejudice to being treated as a diversity-only option rather than a valued artistic institution. Nena reflects on resilience, succession, community-building, and the importance of creating space for older adults, younger dancers, and people whose bodies or abilities are often excluded from traditional ballet. The result is a conversation about art, identity, and the power of reimagining tradition so more people can see themselves reflected on stage. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction to Inclusion Bites - 10:26 — Making ballet more accessible - 14:15 — The dedication behind ballet training - 17:24 — Incorporating ethnic dance movements - 25:53 — Mixing ballet with African dance - 30:40 — Including neurodiverse dancers - 34:11 — Staying active with community - 40:39 — Learning growth through African dance - 49:02 — Fighting for funding and recognition - 54:19 — Creating a historical ballet - 55:26 — Performing a unique ballet production - 01:01:47 — Staying curious and energised - 01:06:54 — Embracing natural hair liberation ## Key takeaways - The transformation of classical ballet by integrating African dance styles, challenging elitist traditions and broadening cultural relevance. - The necessity of representation, inclusive of all body types and backgrounds, to shift who gets space and visibility in traditionally exclusive art forms. - The ten-year path to proficiency in ballet and the significance of physical evolution, resilience, and adaptability in dance. - The choreography of immersive experiences that draw audiences into the rhythm and expression, breaking the barrier between performers and spectators. - Creating community through dance—encouraging participation from ages five to eighty and fostering well-being and social connection across generations. - Persistent challenges faced in dismantling systemic biases based on race, gender, and body image, and practical strategies to overcome them. - Succession planning, global expansion, and the preservation of creative legacy through intentional archiving and intergenerational leadership. ## FAQs ### FAQ: Centering the Margins — Ballet, Inclusion, and Cultural Expression --- What is Ballethnic and how did it originate? Ballethnic is a pioneering dance company founded to blend classical ballet with African and other ethnic dance forms, creating space for Black excellence, authentic cultural narrative, and broader representation within the art. The concept emerged from Nina Gilreith and her husband’s personal experiences in the late 1980s with Atlanta Ballet, where they observed the absence of People of Colour within both the company and its audiences. Inspired to challenge norms and innovate, they developed the "Ballethnic" fusion—"ballet" and "ethnic"—with a commitment to legacy, space creation, and possibility-building 00:06:28. --- How does Ballethnic differ from traditional ballet companies? Ballethnic deliberately breaks the mould of conventional ballet, which has been shaped by Eurocentric standards, elitism, and exclusive ideals regarding body type and movement. Instead, Ballethnic is rooted in cultural authenticity, featuring diverse body shapes, ethnic backgrounds, and dance vocabularies. Their choreography integrates African drumming, R&B, and expressive torso and facial movements typically absent in mainstream ballet 00:11:15 00:18:06. The focus is on joy, community, and genuine representation rather than rigid aesthetic standards. --- What does Ballethnic's approach to dance mean for body image and inclusion? Ballethnic celebrates body diversity, placing dancers of varying shapes, sizes, and backgrounds on stage. The ethos challenges stereotypical notions of the 'ballet body', championing the principle that any body capable of learning ballet can belong and contribute meaningfully. This shift enables increased participation and visibility for those previously excluded or overlooked within traditional structures 00:11:23 00:12:23. --- How is the audience experience different with Ballethnic performances? Audience engagement at Ballethnic productions is immersive and participatory. Shows like ‘Leopard Tale’ incorporate live drumming, vibrant expression, and movement that often energise audiences into physical response—clapping, moving, and sometimes even joining encores. This approach fosters a communal, joyful spirit, contrasting with the often passive observation characteristic of traditional ballet events 00:43:20. --- Does Ballethnic encourage participation from people with disabilities or older adults? Yes. Ballethnic has actively welcomed dancers with physical or learning disabilities, as well as older adults, ensuring programming is flexible to individual needs and ability levels. Their large productions feature performers from ages 5 to over 80, highlighting community, movement as well-being, and lifelong engagement with dance 00:33:22 00:35:00. --- What challenges has Ballethnic faced when centring the margins? Ballethnic has encountered barriers such as scepticism regarding their longevity, presumed irrelevance, gender bias, and persistent underfunding relative to more established, Eurocentric ballet companies. They are frequently approached primarily for diversity initiatives, confronting the challenge of being seen as an 'everyday' part of the arts landscape rather than solely as specialists for Black History Month or targeted inclusion projects 00:47:05 00:49:32 00:51:09. --- Has Ballethnic’s model influenced other dance companies? While many companies blend genres, Ballethnic is among the first and most consistent in integrating authentic ballet with West African dance and broader ethnic concepts. They have extended their reach through workshops, performances, and collaborative projects internationally, including the US, Europe, and Africa, helping shift perceptions of ballet and performance art 00:58:03 01:00:32. --- Where can I find more information or see Ballethnic performances? For more information, videos, and engagement opportunities, visit ballethnic.org. Social channels include Instagram (@ninaleopardess and @ballethnic) and YouTube (@ballethnic). For further resources on inclusion, explore Inclusion Bites Podcast at seechangehappen.co.uk/inclusion-bites-listen or contact Joanne Lockwood at jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk 01:04:23. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 204 with the title Centering the Margins. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Nena Gilreath. Nina is one of the co founders of the Bath Ethnic Ballethnik. That's easy for me to save my teeth in this company who have spent over three decades reshaping ballet to centre black excellence, belonging and cultural truth. When asked Nina to describe her superpower, she says that it is holding the line for black dancers creating space, legacy and possibility where none was offered before. Hello, Nina. Welcome to the show. Hey, Jo, Nena Gilreath: how are you today? Absolutely fantastic. We're Joanne Lockwood: not far from Christmas. It's cold and wet here, but where are you in the world? Okay, today I'm in Athens, Nena Gilreath: Georgia. I am in a place that I love, a community called Athens. But I'm at the Herd Park. Why can I get my things right? Today I'm at Heard Recreation. Today I'm working here because there's a renovation on the building where I usually work. So what's the weather like? You know, us Brits, Joanne Lockwood: we like to talk about weather. Is it. Is it hot and sticky? I mean, last time I was In Atlanta or 25 years ago, it was a really hot and sticky place. Is it. Is it still hot and sticky this time of year? Nena Gilreath: Today is not hot. Atl today I have a scarf on my neck. It's cold. And for people in the south, it's very cold. We're in the east and typically in the winter. Yeah, typically we're in the 30s or so. It's cold. Joanne Lockwood: Has ice on the car. That's really cold. 30s? Yeah. For those who are like me, I work in centigrade, so. But 30s is water. Freezes at 32. So yeah, that's cold. Yeah, that's cold. Yeah. Yeah, we have to wear a jacket Nena Gilreath: and real socks and real shoes and most of the time we don't. It's not like the summer where you're wearing sandals and T Joanne Lockwood: shirts and things. Yes, shorts, shorts, Nena Gilreath: shorts. Yeah, well, yeah, you can just about get away with it here in the Joanne Lockwood: summer, but yeah, most of the year it's not quite short, whether in the UK where we are. But yeah, it sounds lovely. And you're not far from Atlanta then. So that. So Atlanta is the capital of Georgia. Yes. And so you're, you're not far from there, what is it, about an hour and a bit away. Yeah. Like I always say, for me, I drive Nena Gilreath: there several times a week because I work in Athens during the week and on the weekends I go home to Atlanta. So 90 minutes door to door if there's no crazy traffic. So do you have those big freeways Joanne Lockwood: with sort of 20 lanes that all kind of snarl up and things like that, do you? There's so much traffic here, especially after the Olympics, Nena Gilreath: so we do have a lot of lanes. I usually take a little side street so that I can listen to podcasts like we're doing today, and then I end up getting on the expressway. So I love. It's a time for me to reflect, but also to listen and meet new great people. Like meeting you today. Yeah, I remember my times Joanne Lockwood: in the States when I was driving and in. Either in LA or actually in Georgia or South Carolina, that sort of area. You join the freeway or the expressway and you stay in the same lane and before you know it, you've managed to move your lane to move all the way over, and then you end up getting filtered off in another lane by doing nothing other than drive forward. Is 6, 7, 8, 10 lane motorways sight to behold, really nothing really to have anything that big in the uk, but they're phenomenal. It takes getting used to. And I'm Nena Gilreath: from a small town in North Carolina, so when I moved to Atlanta it did get. It took some time for me to get accustomed to merging onto the highway and driving faster than I'd ever driven before. And by. By UK standards, the. You don't Joanne Lockwood: drive that quickly, do you? So you're driving 55 to 70 miles an hour in the UK quite regularly. People are 80, 90, 100 miles an hour, which is kind of even more scary, I guess. Yeah, that's. A hundred is too Nena Gilreath: fast. It's usually between 65 and 75 is what is legally Permitted. Yeah. We're not. We're not supposed to drive faster Joanne Lockwood: than 70, but, you know, our motorways, people do push it up quite often. Someone will come flying past you at 90 plus. So. Yeah. Nena Gilreath: And then your car kind of goes, whoo. Shakes. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. Joanne Lockwood: But I've got a big German car, so my car's designed to go that fast as well. But I never go much faster than 75. 80. I'll get ticket otherwise. Good for you. Keep your money in your Nena Gilreath: pocket. In my pocket, yeah. That's for sure. Yeah, that's where it needs to Joanne Lockwood: stay. We were chatting just before we went live and we talked about, well, the pronunciation, alethnic. And that's a merger of two words, isn't it? Ballet and ethnicity. Or ethnic. So where did this. Well, what started this Inspiration? You know, it's about trying to give not just a voice, but an outlet for people who don't fit the typical Swan Lake view of ballet, I guess, is it? I know. And you kind of hit right on it. Were you in Nena Gilreath: my brain? Yeah. So part of how we hit on it is dancing the classics. So in the late 80s, my husband and I were dancing at the Atlanta Ballet and we were performing the classics. Swan Lake was one of them, Giselle was the other. So with dancing the classics, once you're a classical ballet dancer and you get a certain level of proficiency, and if you're not the lead character, then there's a lot of standing and posing. So we were just standing on the side going, what's next? So we started to do the classical poses and then we started to add some, like, movements, isolating our bodies and our shoulders and our hips and adding that. And both me and my husband, because eventually we did get married, after he followed me to Atlanta, we both are social dancers, love to dance to R and B music. So we just thought about what? About a world where we take all this classicism, blend it up, mix it up and come up with a new formulation. So we also were at the Atlanta Ballet, and we're in a city where. It was a city. The majority of the people were people of colour. But people of colour were not coming to the ballet. It was not very integrated. Some of the wealthier black children could get their dance education from the ballet. So I would always say, where are the black people? The black children? Surely there are people like me that would want to be doing this thing. People like my husband, who was an athlete. So once we decided to leave the ballet, we decided to start our own company. But we were trying to at first get the choreographer, Louis Johnson, who choreographed the Wiz. We tried to talk him into coming to Atlanta and starting a ballet. And he said, I'm too old. A young person needs to do it. And we said, we don't know anything about starting a company. He said, you know the best part, the dance part. So that's how we set out on this mission. Had no clue where it was going to go. So my husband, I'm a big sceptic and at that time we were dating, so everything he said, I questioned. So he said, I think I have a name for this thing. I was like, yes, sure, what's it going to be? And I had my head all tilted and I had a little frown on my face. And he said, my two favourite forms of dance are ballet and ethnic. Put it together, ballethnik. And immediately I was like, ooh, he has stumbled on to something that I think we can really make great. So that's where we started. Yeah, because traditional ballet is very Joanne Lockwood: white, very kind of colonial, kind of old school European, isn't it? It's not. I mean, forgive me if anyone listening to this is really into their traditional ballet, but it doesn't really excite me. Yeah, it's. It's very prim and proper, designed for certain body types and certain fitness levels and certain people Personas and what I'm imagining listening and talking to you, and also the visual identity that I see in front of me. This really fun, smiling black woman with massive hair. You don't fit the traditional ballet model, do you? From old. If you, like, Nena Gilreath: never tried to. Well, I guess there was a time that all of us had to try to assimilate, to even prove that we could be in the field. So, you know, with anything, after you try to fit a mould and you don't fit, you just might as well blow it out. So we decided to just blow the mould out. I love the structure of ballet and what it affords. I love the absolute. I'm a systems kind of person, so I like things that you can replicate and build upon. But again, once you get to that level of knowledge and proficiency, what's next? So I found that I had become bored with the regular steps and I wanted to do more. And both of us really loved African dance and the drums from Africa. That's where it all began. So we both studied African dance and so we were like, what if we put a little mix and a little blend along with that? Soul music and R and B and Give something that will bring in other people. Just like you said, that we're not interested in the staunch standstill elitism of what people think of as ballet. So as we started to build our company, a lot of people were like, I hate ballet. So it became this problem that we'll solve. You hate ballet? Okay, we're going to show you a different kind of ballet. So we started creating programmes that were more accessible and so people could see themselves on stage. And so that was what we set out to do and it really became something very effective and very much exciting. And the other part is that we had to explore where there were all kinds of body types, not just one mould of body types. So we had people all sizes. We had very small, petite people, we had medium sized people, and we had some large, shapely women, and we put them all on stage. We took a lot of heat from that because people were like, those are not ballet bodies. So we were like, what defines a ballet body? We define it as a body that knows how to do ballet, but knows how to move effectively in space and creates excitement. Who cares if you have a stick thin body that's not exciting to watch, where you had these curvier bodies of all sizes? And it wasn't just black girls. We had girls that were Korean. They were from all parts of the world. One of our really beautiful dancers, she was tie, but she had a curvy body and she had hips and boobs, so she was always overlooked. But then when she came and started doing our work, people were like, I like the way that looks. People saw themselves on the stage and then people would come to our shows and go, I like this kind of ballet. I like this ballet. So I'm a complete ballet Joanne Lockwood: novice. I know nothing about ballet other than getting guessing lucky about Swan Lake. And I've seen famous ballet people like Wayne Sleep in the uk, but I know nothing really, apart from the Russian, the Baltoy Ballet Company. So that's about my limit to ballet knowledge. So what makes ballet ballet, you know, traditional? Is it around the special shoes? Is it around the. Where you have to stand on your toes and point your. Yeah, that's what ballet is, is it? It's many things. It's a system Nena Gilreath: that evolved from the Royal Courts, allegedly. But we also know that there was some travelling through Africa with ballet, so it's a formal process. And because where it evolved from, the costuming was very rigid and strict and, you know, the corseted bodices, so it was all about the port de bras and bringing people into the royal courts so that you could see the whole tradition and the formality of movement. But then it emerged beyond the courts, and people really started to extend and lift their legs higher, which meant that the costuming had to be lighter and change. So it's a formulative set of steps that are rotated outwards, built and steeped in culture. But now people are taking that culture and moving it to a different era where there are higher legs, more movement. They're blending it with other culture, blending it with other dance forms, so that it is more exciting. And I think we, as ballethnic, we had a lot to do with informing that evolution, because, again, you don't want something that's built with elitism, not affordable. And as you stated, ballet takes a lot of years of training to get at the top level, a lot of sacrifice, because for me, we're always in tight clothing, tight costumes to show and to reflect the body. So that means you're not going to be eating like a bunch of big fattening things if you're going to be on stage. And also, just like swimming and other sports, you can't eat a bunch and then use your body physically, it does not work. You will cramp up. So there's all those things that go with it. The highest form of ballet, you start with ballet or technique, soft shoes, and then build up to standing sur la pointe or on the tips of your toes. And that takes a lot of training and alignment so that you build the proper structure and muscles so that you can be strong enough to stand on your toes and be partnered by others on your toes. So really, it takes a good 10 years to really be proficient and competent in ballet. And then, you know, as soon as you really get there, then your body starts to age and you've got all this knowledge and confidence. But then, you know, just like a great athlete athlete, the wear and tear on your body can be detrimental. I feel like I'm pretty lucky because I started dance later. So I had a whole normal life before I started dancing at 13. And therefore, I was able to dance a lot longer than some of my counterparts, people that started when they were three and five. I didn't even dance until I was about hitting puberty. And that's another thing. When your body hits puberty and it changes. So there's so many things with being revealed through dance where your body is your tool, and as you grow up and your mind and your body expands, you have to, like, really grow into your new body. For people who start at a young age, so they start out with this young body. You go through puberty, your body changes. Then you have to learn how to move in an extraordinary way with your new teen and young adult body. So there's so many layers and evolutions of being like a professional, professional, proficient dancer. Joanne Lockwood: So to me, correct me if I'm wrong, traditional ballet is all about elongating limbs very pointy as much in the expression, in the hands and the feet. But the body is pretty rigid in the middle, isn't it? It may be a bend over, but it doesn't really do. It's jerky, sort of mechanical type movements. Whereas when I think about ethnic, danc, tribal dancing, this is boobs and booty. This is a full body experience. Less about the hands, more about. More about the trunk, more about the trunk movement and the visual. So how do you blend the two? Is this still the traditional standing on your toes and the elongating with a bit of trunk movement as well? Are you getting me so excited, Jo? That's Nena Gilreath: part of what we started to do when we were talking about that swan leg. So we would be standing with our torsos more taut and rigid, and then we would add the undulation of the hips and the ribs moving forward, moving in ripples. In ripples, like the waves of water. So that's what was exciting for us because, as you said, ethnic dances, African dances, many of the other dances, the torso is empowered and it moves to the music and the structure of the music. So you have this polyrhythmic juxtaposition with the legs and the body while still holding balance. So that has been really the crux of our work, is taking this body that's trained in ballet and learning how to move it against both sides. So it's exciting. One of our most famous ballets is called the Leopard Tail, and it's a storey about a leopard that invades a village and he invades an African village. So part of the work in Part 2, or Act 2, is that the village women show their bodies undulating on top of their pointe shoes and the men using their torsos. So it's like a freedom of movement, a freedom of expression. We are no longer restricted to just this straight up body, but that your body can move like a wave from the top of your head all the way down to the soles of your feet. But the feet can still point, but they can also flex. So there's so much more freedom and expression as a regular person. So I feel like that ballet helped us to incorporate so many other people, especially people that just love to dance. I'm just, I'm going to have to try and find your website after this Joanne Lockwood: recording and just, and just see some video on this because it sounds absolutely fascinating. It's. In some respects it sounds harder to master because you've got, you've got all the concentration on trying to perform the traditional ballet type stances. Yet as you say, get undulating, get your, your body, your booty, your boobies, everything going in different directions and get the expression. Because ballet is often expressionist as well. It's very, very, very straight faced. But I'm guessing you're going to be really living that in your facial expressions as well. I love that you're touching on Nena Gilreath: all the things because joy has to be expressed. So when we started teaching the ballet with all these other mediums, the eyes became more involved, the smile, the neck and the head. Because in ballet typically we don't get to move our heads like from side to side or isolations of the head and the neck. So it brings on this whole joyous expression. But some of the people who were more balletically trained, it was scary for them at first. They couldn't let go of their bodies. And again, I'm going to refer back to the leopard tail because as we know with animals, animals are not afraid to turn around backwards, stick their booties up, especially cats. So the leopard is a cat. And part of the dance in a leopard tail, the leopard meets the leopardess and they mate. So part of the attraction is moving your body, arching your body up like a cat. So when we first did that, people were gasping, literally in certain markets and audiences, people were clutching their pearls. They were like, you guys turned your butt to the audience and you arched your back. I was the first leopardess and I had to deal with the harsh criticism of the people who were like very uncomfortable with their bodies. And then the celebration of people who understood the importance of that freedom that we were bringing to the stage. And, and it was a very complex time for me because we were a young company and we were trying to build audiences. We didn't want to alienate people. We wanted to be authentic and true. And with this ballet we were able to bring in all kinds of body types and we were wearing like catsuits or unitards is what we called. So they were slick things that were tight to your body. And again, as I said earlier, there are people with really small bodies and people with large bodies. But we said, what better way to celebrate people than to use a ballet about animals, because the animal kingdom, in fact, really, a lot of times if you're a bigger animal, you might survive the jungle better. So there were so many lessons to tell through this storey, the leopard tale, because we had the cats, we had the wild dogs, we had hyenas, we had snakes. So we could do the metaphor of how snakes come in and they can take you out. You don't even know they're there. And all of these bodies got to move very stealthily, using all the isolations of the head, the neck, the body, the torso. So it was kind of freedom that we developed. And the freedom was metaphoric in that it was not just freedom of the body from the ballet, but freedom of your spirit to express who you are and to become your authentic self. Joanne Lockwood: I couldn't resist nipping onto your website as you were talking there, because I needed to translate the picture you're giving me and I needed to see that and I needed to get a reference point, just to help me revisualize, make sure I was on the right track. And if you're listening to this now, let me just, whilst you're listening, nip onto this website as well. But bellehnic.org b a l l e t h n I c.org pop on there now. And there's a video sort of showing on the homepage, isn't there? And it's. It reminds me of the Lion King stage show where you have the characters and I presume they're the leopards on the show here. And it's beautiful movement, beautiful expression. It reminded me so much of the Lion King stage show, the way the human animal characters were interacting with each other and sort of looking animal like in their movement as well. I could see the leopard in them as they're moving, but still, as you say, with that. That traditional ballet feel in a way as well. And you name like the Nena Gilreath: elongation and the lengthening, lengthening of the body. It still exists, but there's also the groundedness. So we have had guest dancers come from other companies or trainings. And what was difficult for them is to crouch really low, how animals get really low, and to use your arms, like paws or legs. So it's hard on the hamstrings and it takes a lot of conditioning to achieve that. And for the dancers, what was fun for me, there's an arts and crafts part because we have our pointe shoes and we got to decorate, like the leopardess shoes, to put the spots on it, and the gold rosettes the way the leopards or cheetahs have in the wild. And then the bodysuits have the spots as well. And then back when we do the really big stage shows for a long run, we would spread spray our hair gold, and then you would make your full. Learn how to do your full cat face. If you were a cat. If you were a snake, we learned how to do glitter scales. So imagine this ballet has given so much to us because it has so many layers of intricacies that people were interested. And even with the parents who were crafty and got away from it, they would help with the costumes and with the shoes. And it was just a really. If we go back to that centering, centering community through dance, that we all work together to achieve something great and to celebrate every type of body in our community. And not to say you're not good enough because you don't weigh 99 pounds, everybody mattered. As long as you can move and that you're committed to the movement and committed to the celebration of the full community. I don't think I've ever weighed Joanne Lockwood: 99 pounds. Maybe. Maybe the first six months of my life, but, yeah, I don't think. I don't think I've ever built to be that. That skinny. No. How many dance troupes are there performing this style? It presumably is beyond just. Just your local one that you. You have a network across the States. Nena Gilreath: See, I don't know how many are performing this style. There are a lot of companies blending, but I really believe we're one of the first and ones that continues to mix the ballet with the African dance, especially West African dance concepts, the ballet ethnic. We also have had the chance to travel to Tanzania for a couple of years to study East African dance, which gave us a whole different kind of sensibility of African dance. So we're hugely inspired by the African dance culture and the groundedness of it and what the simplicity of it is. So I think that's added a lot to how we view dance and community. Whereas, like, training with ballet is very specific, and to get to that level, I understand from doing it at a high level, it does require a certain sacrifice. But where we are, we feel like in order for ballet and this mixture to survive, you have to get other people involved and included and represented, or it's not going to last. There are too many things people can do. Like, people can just sit on their couch and experience the whole world. So you have to have something that people feel an affinity for or attached to to get them out of their house and in our case in Atlanta, to travel through traffic, to pay money, to sit still in a dark space, to be taken to another place. So it has to be something of great interest. It has to be beyond just the surface level of dance. So Joanne Lockwood: I can see how the style is including people who felt they would not be represented in a more traditional ballet environment. What about the audience? Are you. Are you tapping into an audience who started with maybe a ballet, a traditional ballet type audience, maybe that old school type? Are the audience coming with you as well? Are you broadening the appeal, not just from a performance point of view? Yes, I think we. I believe we are. In Nena Gilreath: our 35 years, we started out, it was like two. Two dancers, a credit card, a mission and a dream. And now we have full audiences. In fact, we're gonna be performing this upcoming weekend with our ver. The Nutcracker, Urban Nutcracker, Balletnik's Urban Nutcracker. And the same with that ballet. We changed the setting to somewhere far away in Russia, to Atlanta's Sweet Auburn Avenue in the East. So we always try to do things that have cultural relevance so that we can celebrate many types of people and community. And this coming weekend, the theatre's a 500 seater. We have four shows. We added another show. They're all sold out with the exception of a few seats. So we've really worked to be inclusive and to invite people to enjoy what we do. And there's been generations of people that come to that holiday tradition, like families that are, like, for 30 years, they've come from the time that I was the brown sugar. So instead of being the Sugar Plum Fairy, we changed our character to the brown sugar, which is the sweetest sugar of it all. And we have a chocolatier instead of a cavalier, we have a big mama that narrates the storey. Because when we first started our Nutcracker, Urban Nutcracker, there were many in our community, they never been to a ballet, never thought about a ballet, not trying to go to a ballet. They said, I don't go to ballet because I don't understand what they're doing. So we added a big mama, which is your grandma, like, character, to tell the storey with her grandbaby before it starts. And now people feel like they have ownership of this ballet and generations come after generations. So it's a very big tradition, but we're also gaining new audiences as well. Wow. Joanne Lockwood: It's. It sounds like a different paradigm, a different sort of genre completely, which obviously it is. It's ballistic. Which is different. So we talked about right at the beginning about trying to create an inclusive art form to appeal to a broader cross section of society, broader demographic. Has it had an impact in allowing people with physical disabilities, with maybe learning disabilities, such as down syndrome, other people able to take part in their own way? We are doing that. That's so Nena Gilreath: interesting. We've had several of our younger students that are really family members or family related that have come through in our academy that have, you know, things that would prevent them to dance in some spaces, but they've been welcomed and it helps us to grow as instructors. Like, how do we grow to serve a population that wants to have artistic expression? And we continually do that because there are many people that are neurodiversion and you think about most creative people are. So for us, it's like another, like solving a problem that people could perceive as a problem to include people in. And again, as we talk about building audiences, we want everybody to be able to enjoy the art form. And the way that people enjoy it is if they've had their own opportunity to partake, it makes people understand it better. When you've been on the other side and you go, oh, it's not that easy. And maybe I don't want to go all the way to the stage to do it, but I appreciate it and I certainly want to see my friends do it. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: I'm curious. I'm not a dancer by any means, but I do like to feel a beat, to feel the. The vibration in my body and allow that to express. Even as an older person. I'm not as agile as I was in my teens and 30s, but even still today, I like to just feel that beat, feel that rhythm. And what you're saying here is this allows you to express yourself in that way where there's still rules, there's still a structure to the dance, but people can participate according to their own ability or their own skill set or their own. It's all about feeling the rhythm, really, isn't it resonating with that beat? Nena Gilreath: Yeah, yeah. And you said that. So what I love about, again, our community, our ballets mostly the large productions, start at age 5. The oldest person typically is going to be 80, 81, because we create space for everybody. With the Urban Nutcracker, one of the lead characters, Professor Isaac, my husband Waverly, he created a space where Professor Isaac, he could have an entourage. And the entourage, they are older adults that like to dance in the community. And they have a special part where they come in, in one section and they do a dance with Professor Isaac and they exit. And that's been a tradition for all of our large ballets, including jazzy Sleeping Beauty. He created a part for them as the global dignitarians that come in, and they do a court dance. So, you know, once you got to stay moving, that's your circulation, that's your good health. So if you've been a mover and you're younger, you think about when people get older and they don't have the balance or the mobility, they fall, and that's your downward spiral. So we have a community of older dancers. They're in a lot of our productions. When we do outside community performances, we invite them. And they're also great advocates and great representatives of what dancing your whole life means. My mentor, Moselle Spriggs, is going to be 100 January 1st, and she taught dance and swam most of her life. And when we started Val Ethnic, she was one of the people that taught us how to put together a board of directors. So even just last week, I was on an interview with her, and she's outlived, like, a couple of her doctors. So it just shows you stay moving. It's good for you. It keeps your blood pressure down, it keeps your circulatory system, your respiratory system intact. So however you can move. And no, we don't expect to move the way we move when we were 20, but there's something to say about somebody who's 60, 70, 80, 90, trying to move to keep your posture in alignment so you're not humping over. And when you come together with your community to move, it is really inspiring. And then you'll keep doing it because you have somewhere to go. And then that really evades, like, the social isolation in which a lot of elders get depressed because they have something to look forward to. I'm going to go and I'm going to dance with my friends. I may be a little bit sore and have to get some salve or something to put on my knees and my hips, but I will have moved. And when you move scientifically, you know, you feel better. Joanne Lockwood: You do? Yeah. We've. We've just got ourselves a new puppy, so a little, little cavapoo. So I. I'm now doing two to three miles walking a day, morning and evening. Yeah, just that extra bit of movement. You feel good. It's incredible for just clears your head. It gets you. Feels you got invigorated, something to look forward to, to cause you to turn your PC off at the end of the day and actually gonna do something different for a change. Yeah. Not rather than just drift on. You threw the word swim in there somewhere. Does this cross into synchronised swimming? Cause that's a very traditional kind of pointy toe, kicky leg sort of thing. I'm just thinking, could we have synchronised bath ethnic in the pool as well? Nena Gilreath: I think you could, because you could take that rhythm and use all of that dexterity and all that movement, all that rhythm in the pool. I think we could come up with something new and fascinating. Because you think about it, the linearness that you spoke of earlier, it's all, like, in synergy. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think there's a. There's a huge opportunity here. I'm speaking as a white person here who's been brought up in a wild world where the norm is this and listen to you speak, thinking, actually, this sounds more fun. This sounds more exciting. And maybe we do need to sort of put more rhythm into things. And synchronised swimming is definitely needing. And maybe even some of the Olympic sports. We talk about the Atlanta Olympics earlier, but we talk about some of the movements on the floor with the ribbons. And the more rhythm with that, more Nena Gilreath: rhythms. More rhythms than just waving a ribbon around. You could turn that into Joanne Lockwood: a more expression and add your body to it. I Nena Gilreath: love that. You know, what I didn't tell you is in 1996, Ballethnic was the only dance company that received an original commission to perform in the Cultural Olympiad. So we were able to perform during that Olympics. And we received a review from the New York Times. And then my husband, Waverly, he had choreographed a ballet that compares ninjas to ballet dancers in terms of, like, relating the stealthiness, the sleekness, the agility of a ninja to a ballet dancer, to this rhythmic music by Kataro. So that was able to be shown at the Cultural Olympiad. And then we worked with a choreographer from Burkina Faso, West Africa. She choreographed a ballet on Ballethnic. And she had never worked with pointe dancers because she had done mostly traditional West African and modern dance. So that was a whole exploration in which we worked about a year to pull together that synergy. And that allowed us for the first time to travel to Africa to train with Irene Tassambedo. And then she came to the States and worked with us a couple of times. And then we premiered her ballet, which was called Trouble, and then Waverly's ballet, Alonso, which was about the ninjas during the Cultural Olympiad. So that was, like, really amazing. And we met so many fascinating People. During that time, we met the president of Claremont College and he later on invited us to California to perform our signature style. So it gave us a lot of opportunity to travel nationally and internationally from this Olympic, global connection. It's fascinating. The more I'm finding out, Joanne Lockwood: more we're talking, I'm thinking this is. This is amazing. Why, I suppose I must have seen dance moves in a similar style to what we're talking about here. But I guess I'd never come across this term and phraseology about bad and ethnic. And that, as you said, is kind of more down to your brand of that. Yes. There are other people performing their own variations, blending dance styles with traditional African ethnic dancing. So, yeah, I guess I see it all the time in other areas, but never defined in the way you've defined it with this core ballet blended with ethnicity. And I think that's a really great way. Intentional. It's been an intentional effort. Nena Gilreath: A lot of people blend ballet with modern or contemporary, but our brand is definitely the exploration into African dance concepts. And it's tough because it does have the opposites, because ballet is very lifted. The African dance can be very grounded. So for people to want to explore that, it really takes a lot of, like, put your ego to the side. You may look crazy because you're used to looking proficient and graceful, but now you're not going to look like that because you're dealing in a mode that you're not accustomed to. And you know, with anything, once you know how to do something well, it does not feel good to not do it well. It does not feel good to falter and to fumble. But you think about in life sometimes, when we go through our greatest trials, tribulations, and we're faltering, fumbling, when you come out of it, you really see that you've grown a lot. And so that's what happens. Like I always tell people, if you know and study with us, with this form, it's going to make your ballet better because it's going to have more air. Because a lot of times people that do strict ballet, they don't really breathe. But when you do African dance, when you perform African dance, if you don't breathe, you will be passed out on the ground, period. Because it requires a lot of stamina and a lot of high level energy and movement to the rhythm, to the beat. So if you don't learn how to breathe, exhale, show your joy, you are not going to make it. You're pumping some big muscles, aren't you? Joanne Lockwood: Your thighs and Your back muscles are probably playing more than you would in traditional ballet. And your arms, your arms, you can develop Nena Gilreath: just beautiful arms from the arm movement because you're using your triceps and your biceps and you're using your neck. Isolations. Again, these are things that in our traditional ballet we don't. We're not allowed that liberty, that freedom of movement. And for me, it's like a really joyous place. It's like if you've ever been to a church, where they really do high praise and celebration is getting to that euphoric kind of feeling. And that's what. Back to the ballet. The leopard tail at the end, the finale is like about 8 to 10 minutes of just euphoric movement in a circle. The whole village dancing, from the very youngest child to the very oldest person, celebrating the joy of the village, meeting, like, its goals. Again, Joanne Lockwood: I'm visualising this and imagine myself in the audience watching one of these shows and I'm trying to contrast it with how I would feel watching traditional ballet. I think traditional ballet, I would probably be sat in my chair, very upright, very stern faced, nodding gently and sort of. This is very interesting. And I can imagine seeing your show and I'd be beating with the rhythm myself. I'd be in the chair, I'd be moving, maybe even singing along to some of the songs or whatever, and feeling that experience with the people around me, feeling part of the performance, not just an observer. So it's almost like a full audience experience here as well as a performance. You're almost leading the entertainment, but the audience becomes part of that, that whole movement as well. Yes, it is Nena Gilreath: immersive. And at the end of the ballet, what's so funny is people don't want it to stop. And we have done like several encores because again, in the leopardtail, act two is live drumming. So the drummers are drumming, everybody's upbeat, the audience has jumped up. Everybody's, like, moving. It's like a spiritual experience. It's immersive. Then the drums, the last beat stops. Boom. And you can just hear everybody just roar. And then the drummer started again. Everybody's back into it. Finally, like, as one of the directors, I'm like, no more, no more. We've got to get some water because we're exhausted. I remember when I was younger dancing the leopard tail. People would lose, like up to seven pounds in a week because it's very aerobic activity. So we would say it's almost like being a marathon runner. You better eat your carbs before the performance week, because you are going to slim down, you are going to lose weight because you sweat with the lights on stage and just the activity of it. But it is really by far one of the most exciting things that we have created. And we create it because the community needed it. We were working with my mentor, Mrs. Briggs, that I told you at Spelman College. And we wanted to create a ballet that did have the African drumming, the African dance, and that it could include every part of the community, not just ballet dancers. We wanted to be able to include the modern dancers, the African dancers, and we all wanted to come together to do something. So we started out with just a rough sketch and then eventually Waverly went away to do some Nutcrackers in Detroit. And when he came back, he said, I have a storey. And like, both of us are very fascinated by cats and their agility, because if you can make your body look like a cat, that is a real feat. So he made the ballet in Act 1 happen in the leopard's domain and then Act 2 comes to the village. So there were so many things that we could do, like really cool costumes that have a ballet aesthetic, but also that has the colour and the fabric from Africa. So that was a way that we could come together. So many, many cultures, blending our African, respecting our African tradition and that ancestry, but also our African American tradition and culture and then anybody in between, because all people have usually a culture or a way that they do things. So different people that came in, we would celebrate, like their parts of their culture. Our first, very first leopard was a Filipino guy and they talked about like their, their culture in the Philippines and how they did things as a community. So not only was it an opportunity to put together together something really amazing on stage, but to really work together off stage to create more understanding of how we do things. So as you've been through this Joanne Lockwood: journey for the last 30 odd years, developing this, what barriers have you found that you've had to come up against that you had to overcome? Whether it is societal prejudices, the arts prejudice. So what are the big challenges you face and how did you navigate around them? Nena Gilreath: Yeah, a lot of prejudices. One of the first that we experienced it was the prejudice of being youthful and trying to do something impactful and getting people to validate that. Because when we were started the company, we were in our 20s and everybody just doubted that we would stay the course. People go, oh, yeah, that's, yeah, but you're young, you want stay here, you won't keep doing it. And then 35 years later, we're still doing it. So we had that barrier and people to say, oh, but you don't know anything about business. You know, how can we give our money? But once we kind of broke through and people saw that we were in it for the long haul, we started to break through those barriers. And then also coming from the Atlanta Ballet, we had people that said, we don't need a black professional ballet company. Why can't you people just be satisfied and stay where you are and be representative there? We don't need you. So we're like, I think we do. And why can't there be room for more than one? And then the female barrier. When we would go and work and do jobs and get paid, people would always give my. He was my boyfriend first Waverly. They would give him the cheque. But I'm the one who took care of the money. So I'm like, wrong. Thank you. I am the money person. I add the finances. So so many different things. And then the body stereotypes that we talked about, the colour stereotypes, you know, it was always like, we were always trying to prove that we deserved to get the money, to keep the money, and that why did we have to work harder to get the money? So a lot of times in Atlanta, even though it was known as a black city, larger businesses would call us when they wanted something for diversity only. So it's like, why can't you just call us? Because we do good work. We want to be included in all the conversations, not just the diversity conversations. Of course. We know who we are and what we do, but we believe we do good work all the time. So you had that to deal with, and then you, of course, had the size and all of that as well. And then building or the desire to build an institution, to break through the systems and say that we deserve great spaces, a good building, funding, going to different meetings to talk about funding and about the level of funding that we desire. We don't want just a little penny when it's the black dollar. We want to be a part of the whole economic system because we pay our taxes like everybody else. So many, many, many barriers. And most cities, they only want one ballet company, one symphony and one orchestra, and that's what's funded. And because we just really were dogged at staying at it, we've been able to break through, but not to the extent that we have the funding that we really need to thrive at the level that we need to have the staffing. So it's been a Lot of personal sacrifice to the fact that we call ourselves personally, we're philanthropists because we give of our time, our money, our energy. And then also we get all the people around us in our families to contribute and to support in all the ways. So it's really. We've made a lot of breakthroughs. And if it wasn't really like, divinely ordained, we would not exist. And if we weren't stubborn and persistent to persevere through, like, really hard times, like, sometimes we've not had health insurance because we couldn't afford it. Sometimes we've had so little money that we've worked, like, several other jobs to give back to our nonprofit organisation because we just believe that the arts is a way to empower and to build transferable skills that people can use everywhere and still support the arts. I hear what you're saying. Definitely Joanne Lockwood: around the Black History Month. We need black representation. We want you become socially acceptable in the white arena when we're looking after you because we want to promote ethnicity this week or this month. Yes. But trying to unpack that so that you become the norm, not the. Yes, the celebrity act. You're just. You're every day as you are in your own community. You want to be everyday in all communities. You said it so well. Nena Gilreath: You said it so well because it did used to be like, February is the shortest month in the year and people would want us to work every single day, do 10 jobs. And in fact, we started saying in February, we're very selective and we only get the highest. We only get the highest dollars in February. And I would even say to people, we will still be black in March. Can we extend the month? It's a bit like uber surge pricing, isn't it? Joanne Lockwood: You're going to be 10 times more expensive in February because that's when white people want you. Yes, thank you. Yeah. But actually want you all year at Christmas and in the summer. Nena Gilreath: Thank you. But I can imagine. And I don't know, Joanne Lockwood: Valet. I'm not trying to pretend I do. And I'm probably playing to the stereotype here. Whereas when you said that, the town said, there's only room for one ballet company here. If I'm thinking traditional ballet, there's a very small repertoire of ballet performances. Song. We talked about Swan Lake or whatever it may be. But what you're introducing is a complete break of the mould. You're not getting another Swan Lake, you're getting a Swan Lake reinterpreted. Or as you say, the Leopard Dance are getting other things I guess you can also be more contemporary with more modern music and more diversity of music and screenplay. Or the stage play can be broadened beyond those. Oh, this is what ballet is supposed to be like. We have to conform, we have to have these certain moves. Our ballet artists trained for generations in order to be this character. Whereas you can say, we don't need any of that. We can be ourselves and create on the fly and evolve. So there's room for you everywhere. I feel like you know us Nena Gilreath: because really, you're hitting on so many points. The storytelling for us is about telling our unique storeys and being inspired by all kinds of storeys in the community. So it's not just the regular ballet canon that people would expect to hear and to see. We're always looking of new. Looking about new ways to tell things, to celebrate things. We worked with a playwright, Pearl Clade, and she has a ballet called Flying west, and it was the most produced ballet in the 90s, early 90s, and it was about migration from the south to the west. So people didn't know a lot about that. Waverly saw the play one time and he was like, if ever I get a chance, I want to turn that play into a ballet. So eventually we had a friend, Dr. Young, that knew Pearl and her husband, and he told her and she gave us the rights to change that, that play into a ballet. And we travelled to the setting, which is in Nicodemus, Kansas, travelled there, we rode horses with some of the original buffalo soldiers so that we could see how it felt to ride a horse and to really figure out how it is to move in the West. We created original score and we used black classical composers for the music. And even Pearl Clegg, the playwright, she came in and did this amazing voiceover for us and she has a very distinct voice. And we were able to educate about blacks migrating to the West. So it's a different way to educate our community on that particular part in history. And the show, where we fit in the history and the ballet was amazing. We were able to do the ballet all over the south and take really small portions of it to tell that storey to talk about racism, colorism, the plight against women in the west, and then what it took at that time to survive in the harsh elements of the west, that it took everybody, the Native Americans, everybody to work together to survive. So it was a really amazing venture. The end of the ballet, and it's a very interesting storey. We used techno music and we got an original band to come in and play techno. So we were doing ballet with techno and psychedelic lighting to show that one of the characters in the ballet that was trying to take the land away from this family, we had to get rid of him in a very different type of way by feeding him a special pie that had a little bit of lacing of something in it, because he couldn't be taken out in the traditional way with a gun, because that was messy. So there was like the. The storey is amazing. So that was an opportunity to tell not only a part of history, but to tell a storey where we could include all components of the community, from very young to very old. We had children to be. To signify the wind. So they came through and we had these costumes on it and they were like the wind. And then we had children that acted like tumbleweed so that we could really get all the elements of the West. So it was like such an extraordinary, fun ballet, something we were so proud about. But again, the storytelling can go anywhere because there are so many storeys to tell. So Joanne Lockwood: you've done 30, 35 years. Hopefully you'll carry on for another at least 20 while you're still physically able, maybe even 30. So what's next? How do you bring this to more people? How do you get more people involved? Is that the mission, to expand? Nena Gilreath: That is a mission. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for being so perceptive. We are located near the airport in East Point, and most recently, our city council and mayor changed the name of our street, our portion of the street, to Ballethnic Way. And because we're very close to the airport, we want to make our place more of a destination. So before Waverly and I succeed to something else, we have some of our younger students that came up through the academy. They are running portions of the business now. So we're working to raise money so that they can not only they don't have to just survive, but they can thrive. We want it to be an easier journey for them. When we hand over the baton tag, you're it. So we're slowly working out our succession plan, wanting to renovate our building so that it's a more aesthetically pleasing campus. We own our building and it sits on a little piece of land and we own one whole side of the street, which is on Ballethnic Way. So we want that campus to be enhanced and for it to continue to be a safe haven and just a cool place for the community at large to come to celebrate one another. We're also working with an archivist to really focus on our archives, so people can pull up some of the things. A portion of our archives are located at Emory University. So we're trying to digitise a lot of those ballets, from old VHS tapes to digitization, so people can pull things up. So really the next level is just making it greater, making people more aware of what we do. And then for us, we want to continue to travel. We've had the opportunity to travel to Tanzania, but also to teach at the Dutch National Academy of Dance in Amsterdam. We've worked in Canada and taught and worked with Canada's National Ballet School. So to be able to continue to share what we do with the ballethnic style. Our great friend Mavis Staines, who retired from Canada's National Ballet School as a director after 30 plus years, I consistently talk with her about, like, vision for the future. So I'm hoping we'll be able to go back there and set another piece on that school. We were able to travel to Amsterdam, to Den Hague for the Holland Ballet Festival two years ago because Mavis was thinking it was a great thing to do when she was retiring. So we work with our company members and some of Canada's National Ballet School, their graduates to. They were able to partake in Waverly's unique style, which was challenging for them because they were really serious ballet dancers. But they learned some of the African dance moves in one of the ballets called Waltz Tango, which is a waltz, a tango and a gallop. And we took those live drums to Holland. So I'm hoping we can continue to do this global work. It's so much happening. I feel like we're on the precipice of a lot of greatness. We just need more funding so that we can continue to enhance our staff and give them the tools and support. That was a long answer. Right. As I'm thinking, sitting there thinking about Joanne Lockwood: the global aspect of this, bringing in Australia or Maori culture and ethnicity into this or Pacific island styles of dances. So not only an African aspect, but also Aborigine. Nena Gilreath: Yes. The aboriginal First Nation from down there, from Joanne Lockwood: that Pacific island, all of that part of the world. They're, they're. Yes. And dance and music as well. That sounds to me that's a real way of expanding globally to get even more appeal. And I love it because, you know, Nena Gilreath: it kind of tunes in with being a lifelong learner. So I think a lot of times when adults get bored or feel isolated or lonely, it's because they lack things that stimulate. I mean, look at, look at you with this podcast. You have this thing that stimulates your curiosity. And when you have things that excite you, stimulates your curiosity, it puts a certain energy in your body. And I think it just really extends our life and definitely our vitality. Right. So the more we can learn and the more we can be with other people to motivate us, it makes it even more like some days I feel just as excited as when I was like, 8, 10 years old. It's overwhelming to me. Some days I wear myself out like a little kid and then I'm still fighting to stay awake because I want to do so much more in the world. I feel so lucky that this art form inspires me so much. I love teaching kids how to find themselves through dance because it gives you your posture, your confidence, your voice. So that's exciting to me. And I feel like if we can make the world better by using those aspects of ourselves, what a gift that keeps gifting. Nina, we've Joanne Lockwood: been chatting away for well over an hour in the green room and online here. It's been absolutely fascinating. You said just now that I was able to bring out some questions. I had some insight here, but, I mean, before we met, I knew nothing about ballet. I knew nothing really about dance. I knew nothing about you. So it's been your power, your energy that's brought this to life visually in my mind and given me the inspiration to sort of dive in and find out more. So, yeah, all credit to yourself about how you've. You managed to paint these pictures in my head. Now I've got all these explosions going off and I'm. I'm going to cheque your website out. I'm going to see if I can find some more examples on it. If you've got a YouTube channel and other places just. Just to find out more. And it's been absolutely fascinating. And if I lived anywhere near or close to Georgia, I would be buying tickets to your next performance and sitting there in the audience excited to get my rhythm going and being part of that. That celebration. So it's been absolutely awesome. Thank you so much. How can people find more about you, more about the ballethnic dance style? The easiest way is just to go@, Nena Gilreath: well, ballethnic.org that's our website, so that's the easiest way if you want to see me. I don't post a whole bunch, but Nina, and it's Nina N E N. A leopardess, so the female version of the leopard. I was the first leopardess, so. And you know, I have that little snap, crackle and pop. And I can hiss if you get on my nerves. So at Nina Leopardis on Instagram, you can find me there. And those are the two best ways. And then on YouTube, it's @valethnic. So any of those. Yeah, we're always happy to entertain new audiences and to find new family members to join us. And again, we're near the airport, so if you're ever in town. I see, you know, you talked about Columbia, South Carolina. So if you're ever coming this way, again, we're near the airport. And then in the meantime, you can do a little bit of Port de Brasil and a little bit ballet on your own. I'm just. When you just, you can add some ballet arms. I can, I could do all this. Oh, you got the hands. That was nice. I love it. That's a bit Joanne Lockwood: more Indian style, isn't it? So, like more Bollywood, isn't it? Nena Gilreath: Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. I love it though. Joanne Lockwood: Well, I've just found you on Instagram. I found you on Instagram. I just followed you on there. Yeah, I found you at ninolephatist and there's a video on there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be sit there, I'm gonna be doom scrolling your Instagram, your video feeds. And Nena Gilreath: there's so much more. You have inspired me today. Like, I love that you made me think about things in a new way. And your perception about things that I, that we do, that I don't necessarily think about, but you pull that out. So I've got my journal over here. So when we get off here, I'm going to write down the things that I'm grateful for from this podcast. I have a lot of gratitude because when you think you can do, but if you don't think about it, you're not necessarily going to do it and be intentional. So you've put some new inspiration in my brain. So my hair is going to like fluff up even a little bit more. Bigger hair. Yes. Joanne Lockwood: What we need, we need bigger hair. That's what we need. It's superb hair. Anyone who's listened to this, not seeing the video, then you need to cheque out Nina and find her. She's got the most enormous big hair. It's fabulous. It's absolutely fabulous. Love it. And you know what's funny about the big Nena Gilreath: hair? As a ballet dancer, all the years, like in my earlier days, I had slick hair. We had to have slick, laid down hair. And I always straightened out the natural curl because that's what was expected. When we talked about in the beginning, the assimilation, we had to have straight hair. So one of the things when we did that ballet fly in west and we studied about moving from the south to the west, I decided to liberate myself and I cut off my straight hair and just let my curls pop out. And it's funny, it was freeing to me because I felt like I was no longer bound by that restriction. And so, I mean, there are times that I do straighten my hair, but it's such an effort that I just. I let it go. And I. I think about the hair is like, sometimes it really showcases what's going on inside my body. My energy is like, popping for sure. Joanne Lockwood: I can imagine it would take a whole day in the salon just to tame it. It's taming. Yes. It's free. Like the leopard. Like the leopard. S. It's. It's out there on the plains of Africa. Yes. I love it. The Serengeti. Serengeti, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Nina, it's been absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I look forward Nena Gilreath: to connecting again. I can't wait to see the episode and to enjoy some of your other 204 episodes. Joanne Lockwood: Thank you. Have a great day. Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real challenges change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.