--- title: "Healing Through Human Connection" episode: 201 date: 2026-03-19 guest: "Silvia Causo, Adrianne Arendse" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/201-healing-through-human-connection audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-201/audio.mp3 --- # Healing Through Human Connection Joanne Lockwood is joined by Silvia Causo and Adrianne Arendse, co-founders of Lead and Belong, to explore how healing happens through human connection—and what that means for workplaces. They share the personal roots of their work: Silvia’s experience supporting a mentally ill family member and her path into trauma-aware coaching, and Adrianne’s lived experience of mixed heritage and growing up in South Africa under apartheid’s legacy. From these stories, the conversation moves into how trauma shows up in everyday work life: disconnection, fear responses, and the ways people “leave parts of themselves at the door” to get through the day. Together they unpack the difference between inclusion and belonging, and why belonging can’t be prescribed, performed, or forced—it emerges as a felt, embodied state. They discuss empathy as more than information, the importance of nervous-system awareness, and how leaders can create space without acting as therapists. The episode also challenges compliance-first organisational approaches and makes the case for rehumanising work so people can contribute with greater safety, connection, and creativity. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:40 — Inclusion Bites: Spark Change - 09:52 — Collective Healing through Connection - 12:32 — Heritage, Loss, and Apartheid - 19:05 — Experience, Teach, Belong - 24:22 — Empathy's Guiding Boundary Line - 31:03 — Rehumanising Workplaces Through Authenticity - 33:20 — Balancing Mind and Presence - 42:28 — Echoes of Trauma Explored - 45:08 — Bridging Biology, AI, and Growth - 53:33 — Caring Shapes Conversation Outcomes - 57:18 — Childhood Experiences Shape Empathy - 01:01:36 — Meeting People Where They Are - 01:05:19 — Inclusion Bites: Join Us ## Key takeaways - The distinction between inclusion and belonging, and why belonging emerges as a lived, embodied experience rather than a policy or checklist. - Approaches to empathy: understanding its limits, and recognising that authentic empathy requires first self-awareness and clearing personal trauma. - The impact of trauma and protection mechanisms on workplace dynamics, and how leaders can create safer spaces for collective healing. - Shifting work cultures from linear, logic-driven models to environments where emotional and energetic coherence enable genuine connection and creativity. - Strategies for facilitating difficult conversations and supporting colleagues through trauma without assuming the role of a therapist. - The critical importance of self-regulation, metacognition, and meeting people where they are—especially when navigating change and uncertainty. - How the balance of masculine and feminine energies, and practicing deep listening, can foster authentic engagement, adaptability, and innovation within teams and organisations. ## FAQs ### What is the main theme of this episode? The episode explores how healing and transformative growth emerge through human connection, belonging, and self-awareness. It unpacks trauma, inclusion, and empathy, particularly within workplace and leadership contexts. --- ### Who are the guests and what is their background? The guests are Silvia Causo and Adrianne Arendse, co-founders of Lead and Belong. They specialise in creating gentle, powerful spaces where leaders and teams shift from mind-centred to human-centred approaches. Their expertise combines insight, calm energy, and the ability to facilitate challenging conversations (see 00:01:30). --- ### What is the difference between inclusion and belonging? While inclusion can mean being accepted or invited, belonging is a deeper, more intrinsic experience. One can be included but still feel lonely or detached. True belonging happens when individuals feel recognised, comfortable, and part of the fabric of a group or environment (00:20:24–00:21:17). --- ### How do trauma and self-awareness relate to belonging? Both guests highlight that unresolved trauma and lack of self-awareness create barriers to belonging. Healing is a collective process, often achieved as individuals co-regulate and connect with others. One must first belong to themselves before authentically belonging in wider communities or teams (00:10:49, 00:11:00). --- ### How can leaders foster belonging and empathy in the workplace? Leaders need to move beyond just logical or cerebral approaches and engage with the emotional, non-linear aspects of their teams. Creating space for reflection, personal growth, and empathy—not imposing fixed solutions—enables genuine connection and belonging. The right approach is trauma-informed and gentle, allowing people to participate at their own pace (00:36:41, 00:38:47). --- ### What role does empathy play in human connection and healing? Empathy isn’t just understanding information about others—it is contextualising it within one’s own lived experience. Empathy requires self-work, addressing one’s traumas and boundaries, in order to truly feel and support others’ experiences (00:29:57, 00:30:59), (00:26:05). --- ## Transcript Silvia Causo: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 201 with the title Healing Through Human Connection. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Silvia Causo & Adrianne Arendse. Sylvia and Adrianne are the co founders of Lead and Belong, creating gentle yet powerful spaces for leaders and teams to shift from mind centred approaches to truly human centred growth. When I asked Sylvia and Adrianne to describe their superpower, they said this is his piercing insight paired with calm, steady energy needed to hold challenging, transformative conversations. Hello, Sylvia. Hello, Adrianne. Welcome to the show. Silvia Causo: Hello. Hello. Lovely to have you here. And I believe Joanne Lockwood: that you got in touch having listened to an episode I recorded with a show on Miller recently. So thank you for that. It was a beautiful Silvia Causo: conversation and we were hooked and so we decided to come on the show. Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you. And you have the honour Joanne Lockwood: of being my second time having a threesome on the podcast, actually, the first time where I've had my two guests in the same room together. Before I did it, they were in different rooms. You are the first pair to be on the screen together, so. Yeah, fantastic. And I just realised Silvia Causo: that it's episode 201 which makes three again. Yes. Back to the magic number. Joanne Lockwood: Oh, the magic number, yeah. 2 and 1 and 3. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, indeed. It's the 21st of November, so that doesn't count, does there's no threes in there. Oh, no. 201. 201, yeah, 201. There we are. Yeah, 201. 21. Wow. We've got the world is now converging on us. So where. Where are you in the world? I never know where my guests are these days. It could be from anywhere. We're in Port Adrianne Arendse: Levin in Cornwall. Sounds idyllic. And Beautiful. Is that a fishing Joanne Lockwood: village or. Yeah, it is. It's got a Adrianne Arendse: harbour and so forth. And of course it's winter now. Well, it's getting into winter, so it's about 7 degrees outside. Sunny but cold, you know, a little bit cold. Blue sky. Joanne Lockwood: I took the dog for a walk this morning. Part of the world. Oh, shivering. It is. Is it near where the. The Fisherman's Friends films were filmed? Around that area? Is that that kind of. Adrianne Arendse: Yeah, yeah. But those, those were film up and down the coast? I think so, yeah. I reckon they probably filmed some of it here. I mean, I say it's 7 degrees, apparently it feels like minus 2, according to the app on my phone. Does that mean we didn't go in the sea yesterday? No, it doesn't. We did go in the sea. You went the. Oh, wow. Joanne Lockwood: You're 23, 365 swimmers, are you? Every day in the sea? I don't know about every day, but certainly. Adrianne Arendse: And when I say going in the sea, I'm not talking about in a. Wetsuit, Joanne Lockwood: you're talking about trunks. Yes. Yeah. Silvia Causo: I mean yesterday we were looking out of the window and it looked so stunning. Blue skies with in fact was three in the afternoon, so the sun was coming down, the light was golden and I said, looks like we are in the Caribbean and inside is fairly warm, so just let's go and see what it's like. And it was beautiful. Reinvigorating for sure. What she's leaving out is that as Adrianne Arendse: soon as you step outside you realise it looks like the Caribbean. It Silvia Causo: doesn't feel like it. Not at all. So is this a Joanne Lockwood: swim swim? Is it a paddle, is it just a dunk and back or are you hanging out there for an hour or so? Yesterday it was a dunkin back. Adrianne Arendse: But normally you swim, I sink, so I don't actually swim. But you swim? Yeah. And it was Silvia Causo: head in as well yesterday I really needed to refresh my mind because I had a very sleepless night and night before. So it was good for me in that sense. It just kept me going through the day. Well, I'm very impressed as, as I hinted to know I've got a Joanne Lockwood: dog. Well, we've only had the dog about eight weeks, so we're still in this new puppy territory and getting up at early o' clock when, when she wants to go out for a. A wee and then having to take for a walk at 7 o'. Clock. I've got myself a big overcoat and, and snood and things now and it's makes it a bit more pleasant. But yeah, I'm. I'm now, I'm now experiencing weather that I. Probably most of my life I've avoided. But yeah, it's something to be said about starting the day or clearing your head and going for a walk and having some fresh air or getting in a massive plungeful. Atlantic plungeful, I guess. Is it the Atlantic where you are? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Fascinating. We want to talk about bias, trauma, human connection. Specialise in creating spaces where people can explore themselves deeply and honestly. So where did that come from? What was the spark and inspiration? Well, Adrianne Arendse: about, let's see, about six years ago I was working at Falmouth University. I was teaching screenwriting and then a few things happened over a fairly short period. I realised that I'm very mixed race and I'm South African and when I say very mixed race. Normally when you say mixed race people think a white or Caucasian and you know, another race. But in my case I say very mixed because my ethnicity is very mixed. So I, I have a, I have a grandmother from Mozambique, another one from somewhere in India, a grandfather from Malaysia and another grandfather from, from Holland. So it's, it's a real, a really deep mix. And anyway, I realised in my situation, as always, sort of delivering these, these lectures, there was a whole lot of information. The students were not available. It wasn't available to them, or at least it was available, but it wasn't showing up in the work. And if their work is to create something in the same way that when you're working with an AI or an LLM, garbage in, garbage out. So if you put really decent information in, interesting things come out and when you. When one of the things I realised is the students weren't exposed to other perspectives outside of the Western one. And it just, I realised that there was potential in them that wasn't being realised. Because of that the experience of the world was, was getting smaller. And I went on to co create a module called Belonging that ran in the fashion department at first the Fashion Textiles Institute and then I translated over to photography and to television, those modules, those courses. And necessarily because I don't think there's that it's not, you know, it's not like I won wondering with some answers. You have to adapt to the context and that's sort of a theme of, of what I do. So that's sort of, that's some of how I got to where we are and I started doing some, some of that work with other universities. So the. Obviously I'VE got skin in the game because belonging is for me, it starts with me belonging to myself and then how that ripples outwards and it requires empathy obviously, because if I have a good sense of my belonging myself I can then start to find the limits of my empathy. And so. But before I become this becomes a TED Talk, why don't we turn over. To me what was the question Silvia Causo: now? Why are we doing this? Personally, it's because life brought me here. Essentially my background is the coaching but also energetic work. And why I started to do this work is because a family member was very mentally ill with an eating disorder. So I was caught up in that, in, in that experience and at some point I realised that actually I was not helping anymore, I was injuring the recovery. So I had to look at myself and says what's going on here? Why we, you know, we're not making progress. So I started to look at my, at my behaviours and I realised that I was, was modelling what my mother did to me, which I never wanted to do with other people in my family. And I started to look at why I was doing that. I went into trauma and then I went to, into. I had great self awareness and insight. I could see how I was isolating myself from the rest of the world because of this. And then, you know, to cut a long shorty with a thought, I went into training, started to do this work and realise how much we isolate ourselves from the rest of the world because we need to protect ourselves, ourselves. And then eventually while we're doing this together, because essentially we met on a dating app and we realised that, you know, in a conversation we had a lot in common. And then as we got together it felt like this is why we're here because I have that kind of skill of helping people to create and create a safe space for them to just look at the traumas and the blocks, emotional blocks and you have this ability of creating space and holding a conversation, very difficult conversations. And the title is Healing through Belonging if I remember well. And we are very much about collective healing. This is a collective experience. We don't, we can't heal in isolation. We'll heal as we co regulate with each other. I've heard many people say that you Joanne Lockwood: can't truly understand others until you understand yourself. And I always think you have to like yourself, you have to be aware of yourself before other people can like you. And well, so I think finding self is really important and I think what you're saying there Adrian, about having this huge depth of your ethnicity and your, your. I would imagine that you had to explore all of those different nuances mentioned. Your grandmothers come from, and grandfathers come from different continents and there's a whole range of people going back in time there and you must have had to explore that to really try and understand where you are in the world, is that right? Yeah. And not just as Adrianne Arendse: a sort of cognitively and not just sort of looking at the sort of factual history. There are things, artefacts of that experience that are, that are squishy, you know, that live in a recipe that somebody held onto in a way of speaking in a. In, in various phrases. I mean, my, my father occasionally if he talks about going to the doctor, he'll say quacksalver, which sort of. That's his, his sort of Dutch, his, his fierce father's Dutch heritage coming through. And, and my mother passed away in April. She had her sort of linguistic sort of idiosyncrasies as well and those were carried from her mother and so on. And her father died when she was two, so she didn't have a one to one relationship with him really. There's, there's all of those things. And of course, I don't know if you know anything about Cape Town, which is where I'm from, but there's an area of Cape Town that's quite, well, a storey from Cape Town about people, people being evicted from a specific area called District 6, which is. If you imagine the Table Mountain, the classic view of Table Mountain, it would have sat sort of nicely in the middle of the flat, not the flat bit, but in front of the flat. But because nobody lives on top of the mountain. But. So my parents hadn't met at the time, but they, their families were evicted from this very multicultural area during apartheid. And I, I mean, I grew up towards the bottom end of the apartheid regime and then on into the new South Africa. So I left when I was 33. So I'd experienced some of that. So yeah, there's a lot of variation in flavour and a lot of spice in my ethnicity. But also, as I say, it's not just the fact, it's also a way of seeing the world and influences my relationships with time and all sorts of things. And it means, because I experienced that particular experience of being in South Africa at that time, you know, the way that I respond to various things is I could see how it was flavoured by that upbringing. For instance, there are probably a handful of times in my life that have walked up to a police officer because they are unsafe. Certainly the way I grew up, the police was unsafe. And so, yeah, there's a lot that's informed by my lived experience. But I didn't stop there. I mean, I'm curious about my life, but I'm also curious about the world. And, and I, I, I to. To get back to sort of the belonging part. Belonging and love are linked. So if you can find ways to love yourself or discover ways of loving yourself, because I think that's sort of endless. It becomes easier to love beyond yourself. Just. Sylvia, talk about belonging. Need and belong Joanne Lockwood: is the organisation. What is belonging thinking? I was thinking, as you were asking a question to Silvia Causo: Adrian, why we're doing. Going back to why we're doing this work. Right. Because when we met, I always consider myself a very inclusive person, very equal, very diverse. Right. But was only when I was, you know, I started a biracial relationship, I realised that actually there were some emotions that were coming up for me. And of course, with my background is trauma and unconscious, you know, beliefs, everything started to bubble up. Oh, my God. I actually, mentally, I know that I'm inclusion at the verse, but actually in my body I hold some experiences that are not quite aligned with the way I want to be. I want to show up. Yeah, I wasn't fully inclusive. I was. But really there was something that kind of needed to shift. And by the way, I'm on this journey, I haven't finished, you know, like, processing all of this. So in terms of belonging in our relationship, we cannot belong fully to each other or we cannot belong fully to each other unless. Until I move this. And also what showed me that when I go in the world and I look at, you know, black and brown people, different, you know, races, I didn't see the trauma, the conditioning from the trauma they have experienced. And now I have a fuller understanding what it means to be, you know, someone not fully. Actually a better understanding to have a sense of what, what it's like for you, to be you. It's not just you as an individual, but you also belonging to that culture. So belonging is, to answer your question, is getting to know your. Also getting to know how others might experience you and the world. It's really interesting what you're saying there about this Joanne Lockwood: awareness you've developed since meeting Adrianne around what racism is and feels like. Because I am a white person, my heritage is white and British. I see the world through my blinkers. I see the world through my lens. I don't know what it's like for you either. As A couple or as an individual. And it's not until sometimes you open those doors and actually listen to somebody who's going through that you truly understand. And it's not the big racist issues, it's the little. Just the way people look at you, or I'm sure you find that people see you as a couple and there's a reaction to that as well. And there's an assumption that the other person's going to be the same ethnicity as you. Now I get it. Where people assume the person who is with me is going to be of a certain sex or gender or appearance. People are judgmental without being cruel or mean about it. They're just making assumptions, aren't they? Absolutely. I mean, again, as I said, it was only when Silvia Causo: I actually, when we started a relationship, certainly things were coming up. But when we went to South Africa, when I was outside my environment, the white people were the minority in. In their community. So I said, oh, my God, this is how it feels not to be, you know, not to be. Not to feel safe in, you know, and feel that you truly belong in that space. And we had white people looking at us because biracial relationship, we had black and brown people doing that as well. And it was like, wow, this is for the. Feels like when you're not feeling welcome. Although I did have my little flavour. Not feeling welcome with Brexit because I'm Italian, I've been in the UK for 25 years, so I did have a little flavour, but still there is. The whiteness makes me belong in. In a diff. You know, at the core I belong, even though I'm from. From another country. So, yeah, you just really. When we met, I'll tell you this, Storey, we met on the app and the first opening line was, my question to Adrianne was, what is the best piece of advice that you. Someone has given you? And your reply was, it was, if. You want to learn something, Adrianne Arendse: teach it. And my reply to Adrianne was, yes, I agree, but Silvia Causo: I take it a little deeper. If you want to learn something, experience it and then teach it. And that is my mantra, right? Although, you know, journey is ongoing as human beings. But I teach the work that we do is because we experience it. We experience it. What it feels like to be in the room with people and to feel lonely that you don't belong because you don't belong to yourself in the first place. And this is why we're passionate about taking this stuff in the workplace, because how many people feel displaced in the workplace in places where they've been 20, 30, maybe 30 years working in that. And they just totally lost their soul in that place. And it just becomes a mechanical activities that you do every day to survive. Joanne Lockwood: Pick up on something you just said there, and I'm a quiet believer in this concept is that you said about being lonely. I truly believe you can be. There's a being alone and being lonely and you can be lonely in a room full of people and you can. And you can be connected even when you're on your own. I also think it's the same as being the difference between included and belonging, or inclusion and belonging. You can be included but not belong. And it's trying to. It's trying to elevate yourself from being unwelcome to hell. Yeah, people accept me, I'm part of this. I get an invite. But when you arrive, do you belong? And that's. That's a different feeling as well, isn't it? How. It's almost like an upgrade where you go, actually, you've included me, but actually I'm part of this. This is me, this is who I am. This is everything resonates, everything feels comfortable here. And I think I always say lonely and alone, inclusion, belonging there. They're different things we don't always think about. I feel Adrianne Arendse: like belonging to. Is closer to a state of being than it is, you know, it's something you. You become aware of after it's happened or as it's happening. Not something you have to sort of prepare your mind for. You belong. It's. It. It becomes part of the fabric. It's the. It's the truth that emerges, rather than something you. You sort of create. And you can't perform it either, you know, in the same way you can't perform vulnerability. You know, you either vulnerable or you are. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: it's a bit like virginity. You either are or you are. You can't be a bit pregnant, can you? No. Adrianne Arendse: There's a distinction I make between knowledge and information and I use it to sort of, kind of situate my empathy in a way in that if. If I. I call knowledge information that I can contextualise in my lived experience. So I can talk about, you know, using a screwdriver, but I can't talk about having a child, you know, because I don't have the mechanics to be able to. Yeah. To be able to produce. Use a child and so many other things. And I normally do a much more visceral version of that metaphor, literal metaphor, as part of some of the things I deliver. Because it's sort of. I can sort of say, okay, well, that's information. I can be in the proximity of its own experience, but it's not my experience. You know, I can have space and time and care for it, but it's not my experience. And I can recognise that. And I think it's very important because it can inform belonging, it can inform inclusion. You know, I have something to add about Silvia Causo: that. And this is just literally insights coming through, as we have in this conversation. This is the beauty, isn't it, really? Travelling deep conversations that again, like you say, information. If I can't, if I don't have the experience, I can. It's kind of all information. And at the same time, one of the elements that we bring in the workplace is nervous system education and education about the emotions and becoming into, you know, get getting into coherence with the people around you. Because really, and this is part of the work that I do is energetic work, getting into coherence with someone's energetic field. And essentially the nervous system, we can really feel people, but we need to be present, fully present. And again, going back to the beginning, you need to be fully present with yourself before you can be fully present with others. And when you. And when you practise and clear your blocks, emotional blocks, then you can become even more attuned with someone else's experience at a nervous system level, at an energetic level. And there was something else that I wanted to add which is just disappear from my mind, that links all together. But anyway, I'll come back to it, go back to. I mean, both of Joanne Lockwood: you can tackle this, you talk there about. So I can't understand your exact experience. I can hear you, I can get information about it, but I don't. So how can we build empathy through just having information? That's what we're trying to do here, isn't it? I think so. One of the Adrianne Arendse: things I do, for instance, is I paint that information knowledge sort of line and it's a wiggly sort of organic line rather than a dead straight one. I find that helpful because it tells me that it helps me not centre myself in that conversation of the experience I don't have. And that sort of, kind of ironically helps me be more empathetic. And in a way I call it, also call it the line of the limits of some of my empathy so that I can understand. And I don't mean a limit, it's more like a milestone or a guide. It shows me this is where my body stops experiencing something. And this is where my mind and my heart can take me slightly further. And knowing that is quite powerful for me because it means that I can say, okay, my experience of not belonging and your experience of not belonging are not going to be the same. But there's a flavour of overlap because not belonging has. There's some similarity. It's in the subjectivity that I always think of belonging as being highly subjective. So in terms of how we would deal with a client, for instance, I always think that the missing element in any definition of belonging is the client. It. Because I don't go. We don't go to them with. Prescribe how to. Or any of this thing. We go to discover what their context is and what it. And how you know. And my assumption is always that people will come to you with questions, have their own answers, and what we do is create space for them to realise their answers. We don't necessarily know the answers, but it's sort of let them emerge. But yes, I think empathy, I mean, I guess it's helpful to sort of want to have a very lovely, squishy, wavy, slightly imprecise definition, not like a cold hard one of what we mean by empathy in a given context. So I mean, loosely speaking, I think, you know, we only have a sense that we have the same feeling of a feeling of what somebody else's experience is. And it's a feeling, not the feeling. And for me the goal is important. Is it empathy so that I can take the experience or is it empathy so that I can support the experience of somebody else so the other person is in the centre? I always think about that quite a lot. Sorry, Silvia Causo: you're looking at me. I want to say something. Yeah. Before I forget, I'm having a right day with my memory today. But what I want you to say is. Oh, oh, no, it's come. It's gonna come back to me. It's there. I can feel Joanne Lockwood: it floating in the area. Just gotta grab it, go grab it. You just, Silvia Causo: you just go, Joe, you know, Joe. And just carry on. Joanne Lockwood: Again, pick up some things that Adrianne saying there was around the. Again back to belonging. And you can't, you can't dictate belonging. You can't give belonging. You can't insist on it or even fix when it doesn't exist. It's, it's. It's that feeling you have in inherently within you that you know. And it, it's more than just one thing. It's more than just the colour of the walls or the, the, the sofa you sit on. There's a whole vibe going on here and it's, it's very, you know, I think we said earlier, it's very binary. You either have it or you don't. And if you don't have it, there's not often, not much you can do to suddenly co. Create that. It. It has to evolve over time. And I, I imagined where you've both migrated to the uk, relocated from wherever you, you grew up, wherever you were educated, to this lovely little place in Cornwall. And you had to find that belongingness together as well. And in your community and with your, your unique characteristics that come together, that. That must have been a huge, great learning exercise for both of you to find that. Wow. This place now feels safe, comfortable, and I can relax here. Mostly. I'm not saying absolutely, but mostly. Silvia Causo: And what I want to say here is like, it's the same. You described it beautifully. We belong. Every single day, every single thing that we do is a choice. Almost like a choice. I belong. It's a choice that we make. You know, we have decided that we belong to this conversation. Right. And I could sit, I could stay here and sit back and trying to be a bit more like, you know, in close with myself and, and you could belong to each other, but me not belonging. But we choose to all belong to this conversation. And that's beautiful. And what came up from it, it's like a, A choice that we do every day. It's a moving process because sometimes we feel like we think, oh, I need to. When we talk about, you need to belong to yourself before you belong to others. We feel like it's one trip and when we get to the stop, we got there. No, it's actually a constant choosing of belonging. Every single time I need to choose that, you know, in this new relationship, there is another kind of sense of belonging. Like I say, another extended family because I have children. So it's again, we are a different group and we need to find our balance and what the belonging means. And belonging in a group means that I need to feel that I belong myself, but also I need to give something. So either people can feel that belong as well. So it was a very, very interesting process. But going back, I remember what I wanted to say about empathy and how we develop empathy because we can be, we can mentalize, we. I can understand that you have a different opinion than mine, but that is different than feeling empathy. And my belief is if you develop empathy, if you work on your own traumas, because until I hold my traumas and my Boundaries to protect myself from what I perceive can be a danger. I cannot actually open my heart to others and I cannot immerse my. Immerse myself in their experience. So this is why in leadership in a workplace, the very linear thinking structures where everybody's compartment, you know, they're their own role and they just do it. And if they go step out of that role and uh, there might be, you know, they might lose the job, they might be criticised, you know, all of this, there is fear based, trauma based experiences, environments and I cannot belong if I'm constantly feeling under threat. So, yeah, empathy, again, it can be like you say, Adrian, it can be a mental. It's got to be an experienced experience. Yeah, A lot of our work is actually from the neck down Adrianne Arendse: because a lot of speaking, the western sort of compulsion is to do everything cognitively to, to experience your emotions as a thought exercise, to not really feel them in your body, to, to experience them and, and seat them in your body. Your body becomes the unsafe place and you end up performing. So in the workplace, one of the ways I describe it is that people sort of park the identities at the door, you know, and that, I'm not saying that's unhealthy, but it becomes problematic because it's taking energy. What happens? The question is always what happens if you can have a choice about how much of yourself you bring to work and offer to the work? What happens to the work? What happens to the context in which you're working, the people you're working with? What happens to the organisation? I mean, there can be a lot of positive things and new challenges, but ultimately, I mean, one of the ways we put what we're doing is for people who want this. We would like to rehumanize the workplace and not let it be run so much by the linear, the logical, the spreadsheet, the outcome. But what happens if we treat it more like a garden that's being tended, you know, where we tend ourselves as well, where we offer things from who we are, offer who we are and that's. And that's appreciated in ways that remind us and make us feel like we belong as humans insofar as we want to. And this is the whole choice is very important. Silvia Causo: In our approach. We use different. We work at several levels, right? We work on the mental because that's what people access essentially an emotional, also energetic level because they're all interlinked. If we can get an, an example, you like Usain, people leave themselves at the door when they step into work. And that takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of energy to get yourself doing the things that you don't want to do even before you start doing the thing. There is a lot of energy, there's lots of resistance. But if you're aware and you say okay, I just. And also what I wanted to bring in is a neuroscience type, you know, you know, aspect of it. The brain wants to save us, its job is to protect us, right? So if I'm bringing myself into work and I don't want to be there, the brain is not present with me because it's trying to make me avoid the feelings of, you know, the frustration and resentment. But if you have a choice, I'm gonna just bring 50% of myself into work and I leave my other 50%, you know, looked after, cared for at home, emotionally, metaphorically. Then the brain. Already you're giving a message to the brain that you're not in danger, you're just doing something for the time being, for eight hours and then off you go at home. So there is a lot and, and you need to meet the people where are at. Someone is very logical. You need to just enter through that door, through the logic and then slowly bring them, like you say, from their head into the body, down below the neck. And this is why, like you say, Adrian, the missing experience and the miss. The missing ingredient is the client is the person is their friend that is talking to you. He's the neighbour. Whatever contact you're Joanne Lockwood: in, pick up here is we're going back to the feelings, you know, as you say, below the neck. And what we often do in academia is we'll as you say, cerebral, it's above the neck and belonging, inclusion, psychological safety, trust, all of these kind of things are below the neck. They're feelings. Do I feel safe? Do I feel belonging? Do I feel respected? That is very subjective in the eyes, ears and feelings of the person who has it or not. And you say that's where the belonging kicks in. So you work with leaders. How do you move the leader from a cerebral logical solution here into an empathy thing? Because sometimes people see empathy and feelings as weakness. Especially when you're in certain academic or leadership models. We will talk about the logic and we're learning stuff. But it's not that say it's the trauma, what's going on in people's lives, what they're feeling, their biases, the blind, everything that's going on, they're unpacking this, their fight, flight, fear mechanism, their vagus nerves going Crazy, pumping adrenaline, anxiety. All that stuff's going on, isn't it? Well, one of the things that we, we made a Adrianne Arendse: choice about clients didn't. We chose not to try to convert somebody to wanting to work with us. We chose to focus on people who are looking to do, to make this shift, whether they have the language for it or not, put things out and sort of let them know that we exist so that they'll look at what we're offering and something will resonate with the direction they want to move in. So we're not trying to convert people. One sort of operating in this way to move in this direction. We were looking for people who already sort of are curious and, and curiosity then needs to be met with courage. As in they have to add courage to that and we have to be courageous as well to be able to persist in that. Because what we're doing is facilitation. It's not, it's not therapy, it's not, it's not, it's definitely not giving people answers. It's, it's, it's creating space for them to assemble their own compass and then learn how to use their compass and to adjust it as they need to. But yes, I, it, it's, it's definitely their willingness, their employability, so to speak to that process of shifting from the one way of being to another that is, that's absolutely necessary because if somebody doesn't really want to do something, it's a, it's a battle for them and would be a battle for us as well. Silvia Causo: From a nervous system perspective like you can't force anyone feel or do anything as, as a, as a, as a therapeutic coach. It's not going to happen because there is a protective mechanism that will kick into place. Especially with logical people like leaders. They, they experience numbness for a reason. That's why. Because they protect. It's a protective mechanism. So if someone doesn't, is not ready for, will not be triggered. There are people that are very good, you know, like some aspects, some branches of NLP that can be very good at kind of pushing people towards a direction we definitely need not. You know, I'm not even trained in NLP whatsoever because I don't believe in that. I believe that safe space and awareness is what people need to be able to come up with their own answers. So if we are in the room because a leader might choose to say okay, let's do this work in our organisation, but there might be in someone else in the room who is not ready for it right, what we do, we bring gentleness. We, we do this very slowly, just like going to the gym. The first day you go to the gym, you just look at the gym, you don't touch anything. The second day you might be wearing, you know, the gym clothes. And then the third day you start picking up things. This is a very gentle process and this is why we call it a trauma informed approach. Trauma informed is like belonging. It's not a mental thing, it's an attitude of the practitioner. You are, Adrian, are very good at holding the space in the group. I am very good at noticing the slight changes in someone, someone else, like even slight movement. When Adrianne says something, I can see what is that person has been triggered. And then, you know, not addressing individuals but in the room, we can talk about that, we can pause and talk about that because someone is experiencing it. Other people in the room will be experiencing it. Because going back to the nervous system and the energetic fields, we are all connected. It's like when you, you in a room and someone enters the room and you feel, oh my God, I feel so uncomfortable now. What, what is it? Someone else come in with the nervous system dysregulated and every single one and every other person in the room is picking it up. As you're both talking, Joanne Lockwood: I'm thinking here that the word courage came in earlier. What's also bouncing around my mind is that. But these are skills that not all of us possess. You know, certainly leaders don't possess all these skills. And radical empathy, even any empathy, is often not present. And I know leaders are. Leaders tend to be thinking about business objectives, getting reports out, hitting targets and numbers and feelings. And empathy can sometimes get in the way with that. Almost like many HR departments I speak to, it's all around policy process, managing this, managing that. Do we put enough effort and training to develop leaders who are able to have the skill to engage with people at an emotional level, not just a logical level. You know, we think about, we've got our amygdala and our trigger part of our brain. We've got our prefrontal cortex. We need people to move into the prefrontal cortex, but also recognise that the feelings are buried deep in the, in the, in the back part of our brain, which is our reactive. Because sometimes as a leader we think, I don't want to open that box in case they react in a way that I can't handle. And that's what we talk about here. The trauma related experiences. Getting into the hub of this. We need to Be brave enough to get into the feelings where there's no right answer. It's all. It's all nebulous shades of grey. Well, there's certainly. Having worked Adrianne Arendse: in policy contexts a few times, I've realised that often policy is about protecting organisations, the organisation as an. Sort of a legal organism from these squishy spaces, these nebulous spaces. So you made for. I was. I was made redundant a few years ago and there's the process of the redundancy as. As I experienced it is the organisation making sure they follow the law rather than centering the person who is potentially being made redundant because the performance is that your redundancy is a possibility, but the reality is it's a certainty, you know, and so I have to, certainly with my. My race, my experience of lived experience of race. I am very practised in living with paradoxes and contradictions because I have to. To survival imperative. So to see that. I can see that. And also my. I love Gabor Mate's definition of. Of trauma. He talks about it as not the thing that happens to you, but what happens to you as a result of the thing. So you disconnect from your body, your emotions, et cetera. So it's the echo. Yeah, he says the echo is the trauma, it's not the. The thing. And, and what I love about that is because it. What that inspired in me is to be able to see the trauma in the traumatizer. So, for instance, if we look at redundancy, the organisation cuts off its own humanity and the people involved, because people have to talk to you in order to do this. The organisation does not have a face, it's people who have to talk to you. They have to sort of suppress some of their humanity in order to have these conversations with you that they know a performance and then show you where the door is at some point, you know, in a way that somehow protects them, so that numbness protects them to some degree and then they have to drive home, you know, and it's really, really interesting. So I don't sort of. I haven't used the word victim once because I feel like that makes. That suggests that the traumatizer isn't the victim as either, because they certainly are. You know, there's quite a dynamic there. But yes, I think. I think it's. It's really important to situate. To have awareness, self awareness, because then you can realise, you know, one of the terms that's in various pieces of literature is metacognition and, you know, the ability to be Able to see yourself thinking, to observe yourself thinking. And I think you should also be able to observe yourself feeling so that a feeling comes up and it's not completely running you that you can see, oh this feeling is happening. And I can observe the feeling, I can make choices about it, you know, and that choice might be to let the feeling be but not let it get out into the world as a, as an action or words or any of those things. That's a great, that's a great word, Joanne Lockwood: metacognition. I completely understand what you're saying here is this be able to step out of your body and look down on you and analyse what's going on in your mind, what's going on in your heart, your feelings. And then almost a bit like, a bit like emotional intelligence where you're able to understand and be self aware of what's going on and then you can start to get into the self regulation, self management and adapt based on what you know. But I suppose if you're, if you're right in trauma, you're living it, you can't step back out of that. That's maybe some of the problem you're talking about there. Yeah. And suddenly if you use Adrianne Arendse: all this without judgement so to just see what. Joanne Lockwood: Is, that's the hard bit, isn't it? We're judgmental people. We love to be right, we love to have opinions, we love to tell people what we think, don't we? Silvia Causo: And that is the primal biology role of the brain is to judge is this safe, is it not? The problem is that we live, you know, we talk about the risk problem, primal biology. And there is us as human being evolving in this, you know, in, in this world like our consciousness is evolving and there is like a gap, you know, there is a contradiction between the two and self awareness that metacognition be able to see what you're thinking but also what you're feeling. We need to come up with a new word for that is the process to, to bridge that gap. But going back to the leaders, they're focused on productivity and profitability and, and numbers and stats. I mean the system is crumbling. That we like it or not, something needs to shift come in and I think in, in many, if you treat it properly, AI is in a way is a blessing because as I said, as I said before I will solve is a almost like a left brain kind of, you know, tool helps you to solve, plan and do everything. And what you left is space for creativity is space for, you know, connect with People a space to explore different opportunities. So this is why the passion for us is actually to help people. How can we help humans to actually capitalise on this AI venture instead of feeling threatened by it? And we talk about, you can create it from two different spaces, can create from a place of fear, or you can create from a place of flow, of connection, of safety. The results are very different because if you can create from flow, you can actually connect and belong to the team because you feel safe. And actually you can say, you know, I've got a great idea, but my idea combined with yours actually is going to be even better. But when we are into, you know, trauma responses and you know, this idea that, you know, scarcity, we focus on creating solution for ourselves, for our sake. So I think leaders will have to evolve. Some leaders will not and eventually will fade out, but the majority of us will need to embrace this. I mean, you know, off sick, off sickness, quiet, quitting, redundancy, burnout costs a lot of money anyway and they affect. Leadership as well as, as well as, you know, leaders Adrianne Arendse: burnout, leaders quit quietly. Well, leaders Joanne Lockwood: are led by somebody else. You know, there's a hierarchy of leaders at some point. Adrianne Arendse: Yeah, and, and, and so I think what's always important is to remember that everybody's human. You know, you talk about sort of creating from fear. What happens when that happens is that you filter out things that won't get you to feel safe. Now it doesn't mean that there, there's not immense possibility in those things. And I specifically didn't use the word value just then, those things are just not imperative to your survival in the moment. And so you're throwing so many babies out with bathwater and, and when you're creating from flow, they all get to their time in the sun, you know, and you can make choices that are better informed, that are deeper, that are more connected and the choices become offerings rather than imperatives. Also there's this, this distinction between the fear based way of creating, of being can be quite individualist focused, whereas the other is more collective focused. Because what helps us, helps me and what helps me, helps us. And it's not that we lose distinction, it's not, you don't lose your identity, you need an identity in order to belong to the. But the possibilities that happen when we connect, that we are just, they're exponential as opposed to the individual just looking out for themselves. I mean, I've been certainly in work context where people have stolen my ideas for their own progress and I always see those as Missed opportunities for the opposite to happen, for all of us to move on. Is there a Joanne Lockwood: demographic bias in some of these things? So I'm thinking, are men more likely to lack empathy than women or is it. If you've experienced marginalisation, discrimination in the past, you're more likely to have more empathy about another person's situation. Can we generalise here at all what good leaders tend to be? Women tend to be overcome. You know, a view on that. I think it's both. You can generalise and yet you Silvia Causo: cannot. I think it's one of the paradoxes, you know, because again, goes down to the individual experience for me to bring some woo woo into the conversation. It's about, it's about balancing your feminine and masculine energy that we hold, you know, like generally can generalise. The masculine is the, is the, the provider, right? And the feminine is the protector. The kind of the, you know, the energy that, you know, makes you feel safe and nurtured. And then the masculine is like, I'm gonna go out hunt, come back and put the meat on the, you know, next to the fire. And the, the feminine will cook the, will cook the meat, you know, that kind of stuff. So it's a balance between us in a Western society. We're driven from a masculine, very patriarchal way of doing things. Then you see even women, you know, doing that in, you know, business. Women founders, they drive businesses like men would do. Even if they come up and show up with a lipstick on, they're still driving from a masculine, you know, Western height orientation. And, and what was the question, what was my fight? And, and this is. There is an imbalance. There is an imbalance. I question myself, how do I want to run my business? Because I don't want to do it like the way that everybody, everybody else does. There are many people are shifting, actually. It's not, it's, you know, this big authenticity and being authentic is a buzzword now, especially on LinkedIn. Showing up and being vulnerable again and again. You can fake it, you know, you can become. Come across vulnerable to a certain degree and then it will show up anyway. But I think I lost my point. Someone saved me. I think what Joanne Lockwood: you were trying to say there was the. It's about getting in touch with your energy and recognising that you need different energy sources. So as you say, the protector, the provider and whatever your gender, your age, your demographic is recognising those different energies and needs at different times and being able to authentically move in and out of energies and modes and Styles and communication and adapt to interact with people in a way that resonates at the time, I think, is what you're trying to say. So it's skill here is self awareness. And you say that metacognition, to be able to put yourself in a place where you are the most receptive communicator to listen and to assist at the time. I think to paraphrase what you're saying. Yes, thank you for bringing me back to the Silvia Causo: centre. And it's about self awareness and also willingness. Am I willing to just do this? Because, you know, to the point that Adrianne said we want to work with people who want to maybe don't know the answer, they don't know what they're looking for, but they feel like there is something different that is needed in the business and organisation. And there is that sense that, the willingness. Because when you open, when you open a Pandora's box, there is also a purging process that people need to go through. You know, and my clients, I said, yeah, we can do this work, but remember when, after the session, the process continues. So you need to start to look at, you know, at uncomfortable new beliefs that come up. We might work on something, but something else will come up because it's a constant renewal process. That's just the nature of nature. And we are nature. We constantly renew, we grow our hair, we cut them to grow skin nails. You know, that is the thing. Fundamentally, we Joanne Lockwood: have to care deeply about the end result. If I'm having a conversation with you and I don't really care how you feel when you leave the room, that sets me up for an emotional failure, if you like, or a connection failure. If I deeply care that I want you to walk out that room feeling enhanced, feeling valued, even though this is a tough conversation, even though I'm making you redundant, I can do it in a way where there's empathy and compassion and I'm helping with that trauma process, sometimes I can just go, well, here's the bit of paper. Sorry, you're out tomorrow. Bye. Same conversation, just a different outcome planned, isn't that so? I think caring enough about how you interact, it's gotta be the first stage. And until we get that I care enough feeling, we're never going to be able to take a helicopter view of the conversation and think what the outcomes are. Yeah, it's funny Adrianne Arendse: when. When this is a. An artefact of race conversations and one of the things I've learned to do and continue to learn to do is how to hold those Conversations in a way that doesn't. That allows everyone into the conversation insofar as they choose to be or can be. And those are definitely two different things because you can really want to be in that conversation and not be able to. And, and one of the things that one of the artefacts in, in. In the. In the main is that somebody's response to something that's happened or somebody else's experience or somebody else's storey becomes the centre of the conversation rather than that experience. And it's the low hanging fruit here is to say that the white person cries and their tears become the conversation and their experience becomes a conversation. But that's the low hanging fruit can happen to anybody in that context because it then becomes about the feeling rather than the experience and whose feeling it is, you know, and it becomes about that person's empathy rather than who's gaslighting who. Who's Joanne Lockwood: more Right. It can be all those things. Adrianne Arendse: And for me it's so important. This awareness has come up quite a few times in this conversation. That awareness, the things, you know, you go through a transformation and I say transformation, I don't. I mean it in, in the sense that you, you choose to be a different way. Often that means letting go of things. And some things are very sticky. For instance, some of our work is. Involves the inner child metaphor, dialogue. The inner child's got very sticky fingers, you know, within that metaphor there are parts of you that struggle because they want to be safe. They struggle to let go of control. So letting go of that is not an easy process. Eventually it is, but it is not an easy process. So being able to be sort of courageous enough to make those choices, to have the self awareness to see these things happening. It's a conversation with yourself, you know, and being better at having that conversation with yourself makes you a better everything, better partner, better, better listener. I mean I talk about deep listening as being able to hear yourself as well as the other person. Because if you can't do it in both directions, something's wrong. You're. Because you can, you can over centre the other person's experience. You need to be able to hear what's going on inside of you so that you can know which bits to offer to withhold. So that deep listening is a really, really important aspect of our work. And from sort of creating context for that deep listening to happen is crucial. Silvia Causo: I just want to go back to a question that you asked Joe about. There are different some characteristics or some experiences like people, black and brown people, do they Experience more empathy because what they've gone through. And the answer was yes and no in my case, being criticised, overly criticised as a child has given me and feeling. It has given me the ability really to pick up on people when they retrieve because they feel criticised. Right. As a practitioner, as giving me. So, yes, your, your childhood experience will shape the way some of your gifts. And you talk about, you know, growing up in South Africa, having to be able to, you know, you had to scan the environment around you to. To feel safe. It's now your gift of be able to hold this big space where all these people are and, and make room for everybody, you know, everyone's emotion. So, yes, experience will shape the way you show up. And at the same time, someone who's been traumatised as a child, and this does not mean violence can be really emotional neglect is as traumatising as being, you know, for some people as any. Anything else as a car crash, they are hurt so much, they isolate themselves. The inner child is just close in. And some of these people will show up with narcissistic traits. They got so far in through that, on that path that cannot see other people's point of view anymore. It's just about them. It's just about them. And I've been dealt with narcissists in my life and you see them, they just go back to like childhood childlike behaviour and there is a block and some of them, they wear suits and, you know, ties, you know, some of these big children. Which unfortunately is quite prevalent in the top leadership layers, really, it's quite prevalent. A mantra that many professional speakers use Joanne Lockwood: is you speak from the scar, not from the wound. So if your wound is still open, it's still bleeding, it's still leaking, you need to heal yourself first and then you can reflect back on that trauma, that wound of past. So you have to work on yourself first. And because if you're trying to heal from that point where you're still hurting, you're going to bring that hurt into the conversation. So what you're saying there is. It's really important that heal thyself first, I think, is the key message. Understand thyself and not bring your trauma into somebody else's trauma. You can't, you can't take Silvia Causo: anyone. We're talking about in the context of my. Our practise. You can't take a client any deeper than you have been, you know, and the business actually, you know, if someone's running a business, you can't take it as further than what you actually prepared to. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And I think, you know, not Adrianne Arendse: an over. In an implicit way, modelling is a big part of what we do because we're navigating the territory we're trying to bring other people to. And that territory is alive, so you can't sort of wander through it and say, okay, well, I know what that is now because it's shifting, it's. The terrain's alive and. And also who you are. You know, I often like to start a session with the understanding that the version of somebody that walks into the room is the version I'm dealing with. Yes. Rather than this person I know for 10 minutes or 20 years, whatever it is, is who's coming into the room. It's the version of them. So if they're. If they were running five minutes late and they're harried, or there's a thought in there that's distracting him, or not, if they're happy, sad, all these things, those. That's who you're dealing with. And being able to sort of find people where they are. That's what I talk about is. Is finding the version of them that's in the room. So I don't bring my preconceptions of who. Who they are might be into that conversation. I can put those preconceptions aside and say, well, this is where they are. I could. I'm with you on that. And I Joanne Lockwood: encourage leaders to that as well. Where you're meeting people, where they're at. And as you say in that moment, if you're trying to correct behaviour, trying to figure out actually what's going on in your life right now, what's happened? Where are you? Are you feeling relaxed? Are you feeling happy, stressed, sad? Because all of that is firing of your brain. Your emotional triggers are going. And you can never go logical, you can never go to the prefrontal cortex. If people are still living in trauma or still living in whatever baggage they're carrying, as you say, into the room right now. And we're not Adrianne Arendse: asking leaders to be therapists either. We're just asking them to be. Just aware enough to be able to see there's something here I don't recognise. And then to become curious or offer curiosity to that, not just ask questions unnecessarily, because I'm not. Again, we're not asking them to be therapists. I mean, we are not therapists. But what we can do is facilitate space for exploration, for navigation. And if. If somebody needs whatever they need, there are ways for them to get it. But until they recognise that need and accept that need, you know, you're nowhere. We Silvia Causo: were talking to someone the other day about this conversation. Is a. Is a CEO of business and he says, but I can't just. It's already difficult to run a business. I can't look after. Think about everybody else, what all my team members feel. And the point is, you don't have to look after them, you need to provide them space. And this is what we trying to bring to business space. Opportunities for your own people to look at this stuff, to look at themselves. Opportunities. Because we live two thirds of our lives is work, work, you know, work needs to take a responsibility. How much extracts from us. It's just a question of providing opportunity, not just, oh, I'll provide you with extra half an hour for a walk or, you know, I'll put a plant in the office that does a little bit. But the, the work is deep inside of us, really rehumanizing the workplace, rehumanizing humans. Joanne Lockwood: Sylvia, Adrian, we could talk all day and I mean, we've been chatting now for. Wow, over. Over an hour and a half and a bit time in the green room as well. It's been fascinating to get to know you both and I love the conversation. I think we've got a lot of lost synergy in what we think about and it's really powerful and I'm very envious about your. Your cold water swimming and your idyllic Cornwall life. It sounds. Sounds perfect. How could people get hold of you? Well, we have a website Adrianne Arendse: that's leadandbelong.com and it's l E A D A N D B O L O N G B A B l o n g.com and there's an email address. It's infoadandbelong.com Again, I n F O at L E a d a N-B-E l o n g.com and we've got profiles on LinkedIn individually and we're. We're gently active there. I'll. I'll Joanne Lockwood: put full details in the show notes rather than you have to spell your names out, both of you. It's for native English speakers. Read the show notes to get the spelling because Adrianne is not spelled as you would imagine and Sylvia is obviously, but Adrianne isn't. So, yeah, read. Read the notes, look at the subtitles, the captions and please do contact Adrianne and Sylvia because you'd love to hear from people. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely is. Yeah. I feel that it's. Work is Silvia Causo: needed. Work is needed for sure. For sure. Definitely. Joanne Lockwood: Definitely. Well, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear to and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.