--- title: "Dance With Difference" episode: 200 date: 2026-03-12 guest: "Dr Khutso Madubanya" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/200-dance-with-difference audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-200/audio.mp3 --- # Dance With Difference Joanne Lockwood is joined by Dr Khutso Madubanya for a wide-ranging conversation about difference, identity, and what it takes to reclaim self-worth when the world keeps trying to define you. Khutso reflects on growing up in apartheid-era South Africa, the power and meaning of her name, and how patriarchal expectations around women, marriage, and motherhood shaped a fierce drive for independence. She shares how labels like marital status and assumptions about single mothers can become a constant form of social boxing-in, and how credentials and titles can feel like a shield even when they don’t address the deeper question of innate worth. The discussion moves into the personal cost of hyper-independence, including fear of asking for help, perfectionism, and the burnout that can follow from proving yourself through performance. Khutso explains how a period of upheaval—relocation, job loss, legal stress, single parenting, and career change—pushed her to build a practical mindset framework she now teaches: PIVOT (Pause, Introspect, Vector, Overcome fear of mistakes, Travel forward). Together, they explore how letting go of identities that no longer serve you can create freedom, resilience, and momentum through change. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:40 — Klitsu: The Peace Bearer - 09:17 — Rebelling Against Hyper Independence - 15:32 — Challenging Perceptions of Worth - 20:35 — Innate Worth and Self-Acceptance - 26:03 — Starting Over, Facing Challenges - 27:28 — Burnout, Stress, and Letting Go - 36:23 — Rubber Duck Debugging Explained - 42:06 — Embracing Change Through Identity - 44:42 — Becoming Indispensable Through Organisation - 52:16 — Letting Go and Self-Discovery - 55:31 — Reflections on Doctorate Perfectionism - 01:00:05 — Challenging Double Standards - 01:05:40 — Join the Inclusion Journey ## Key takeaways - Why names, heritage, and the power of self-definition are integral to authentic belonging, particularly for women and those navigating multiple cultures. - How early socialisation and cultural norms around gender, marriage, and “worth” can shape— and mis-shape— lifelong attitudes toward independence, achievement, and self-acceptance. - The myth of hyper-independence as a virtue, and how unaddressed trauma responses can lead to burnout rather than true strength. - The pivotal role of self-worth and the distinction between external validation (titles, achievements) and intrinsic value. - A detailed introduction to the PIVOT mindset framework—Pause, Introspect, Vector, Overcome, Travel Forward—for moving through change with less fear and greater agility. - The dangers of perfectionism and people-pleasing, and how to let go of identities, beliefs, and social scripts that no longer serve you. - Why reframing mistakes and celebrating small wins are essential to psychological safety, resilience, and sustainable personal growth. ## FAQs ### Who is Dr Kutsu Madibanya and why was she featured on this episode? Dr Kutsu Madibanya is a South African-born change catalyst and inspirational speaker. She specialises in helping people and organisations embrace difference, transformation, and cultural understanding with courage and authenticity. Her lived experiences—as a woman of African descent, a single mother, and someone who has lived in eight countries—inform her work and storytelling on embracing change and inclusion. --- ### What does the episode title “Dance with Difference” refer to? “Dance with Difference” alludes to the approach of accepting, adapting to, and flowing with change rather than resisting it. Kutsu Madibanya uses the metaphor of dance to illustrate how one can learn to pivot and navigate differences in life, work, and identity, particularly in contexts that can feel challenging or exclusionary. --- ### Why is the meaning of names and identity discussed so prominently? Both Kutsu Madibanya and Joanne Lockwood explore how names shape and reflect our sense of self. Kutsu Madibanya explains the significance of her name, meaning “peace," and discusses the tension around changing one’s family name due to marriage or societal expectations, relating it to broader issues of identity, belonging, and agency—especially for women. The act of choosing one’s name is positioned as reclaiming identity and asserting self-worth. --- ### What are the key components of the PIVOT framework mentioned by Dr Kutsu Madibanya? The PIVOT framework is a mindset and resilience tool for navigating change. The acronym stands for: Pause: Take a deliberate moment to stop, allowing emotions to settle and space for reflection. Introspect: Reflect on identity in relation to the new change and consider what aspects of your old identity serve you. Vector: Remember and use your strengths and past experiences to build confidence in facing new situations. Overcome: Embrace the inevitability of making mistakes and allow yourself permission to fail and learn. Travel forwards: Move forward without over-focusing on the past, letting go of what no longer serves you. --- ### What triggers or contributes to feelings of low self-worth or hyper-independence, especially in women? Kutsu Madibanya attributes much of her own experience with low self-worth and hyper-independence to childhood and cultural socialisation—specifically, growing up during apartheid, the dowry system, and being reminded of women’s “disposability” in traditional societies. The need to “prove” oneself through achievements and not rely on help is often a trauma response, perpetuated by societal norms, and not just personal shortcomings. --- ### How does the podcast address gendered double standards and societal expectations? The episode highlights the ongoing double standards faced by women, such as society’s judgement of single mothers compared to single fathers, and the default expectation for women to declare their marital status. Kutsu Madibanya challenges these biases and advocates for dismantling the notion that anyone should have to prove their worth through marital status, motherhood, or overachievement. --- ## Transcript Dr Khutso Madubanya: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 200 with the title what's With Difference? And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Dr. Khutso Madubanya. Khutso is a South African born change catalyst and inspirational speaker who helps people and organisations embrace difference and transformation with courage and authenticity. When I asked Khutso to describe her superpower, she said that it is helping and empowering people through change and cultural understanding. Hello, Khutso. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having Dr Khutso Madubanya: me, Jo. I'm so honoured to be Guest number 200. Joanne Lockwood: Number 200. I know, I can't believe it. Yeah, talk about Dr Khutso Madubanya: synchronicity. I feel honoured, truly honoured. Joanne Lockwood: Who'd have thought when I started this five and a half years ago that I'd still be going today and maybe in another five and a half to and a half years I might be up to episode 250 or even 500. So, yeah, it's a real honour, real honour. Thank you. It's a real going. Dr Khutso Madubanya: I'm really grateful that you're doing this. I've said to you a minute ago. Joanne Lockwood: So I said in the intro that you're South African born. You dropped me a hint earlier that you said good morning and I'm in the afternoon so I can tell the time difference that you're not in South Africa. So whereabouts in the world are you right now? Oh, I live in Michigan in the United Dr Khutso Madubanya: States, Michelle. Oh, wow. Yeah. South African. Anywhere near the lake? Is it near the lake or. Oh, yes. Oh yeah, we've got. We've got quite a few lakes here, I think. 10,000 lakes. We called. We do have 10,000 lakes. Joanne Lockwood: So lake Michigan is the big one, isn't it? Yes. Lake Michigan is the Dr Khutso Madubanya: Big one. Beautiful. Beautiful part of world. Absolutely. Also very, very cold. Very cold, Joanne Lockwood: very deep. Yes. We have the lake effect, Dr Khutso Madubanya: which means, you know, snow dumps on us ever so often in unprecedented ways that people who don't live around water don't get to experience so much. So this is our fourth year here, my kids and I. In fact, we just had our 4th year anniversary last week. We arrived here on the 6th of November, 2021. Synchronicity. Synchronicity. Joanne Lockwood: We were chatting away in the green room just before we went live here, and we're talking about your name, Khutso Madubanya. And you were saying, well, call me Khutso because that's your name. Whereas the other part of your name, the Madubanya, is your family name. And you almost said you'd be offended if people called you anything else than Khutso . Do you want to explain a bit about your family heritage and what your name means to you? Yeah, absolutely. You know, we Dr Khutso Madubanya: all have a. Well, in most cultures, you know, I've lived in eight countries. I know that not all cultures go by first and last name the way we do, but in South Africa we do have first and last name. Madubanya is my family name. Really, really proud of my lineage. And Khutso is my first name, obviously. And Khutso means peace. And all my life I have felt that I was the peace bearer, for better or worse. I've always been that personality that everybody congregates around to help them understand differences, because I've always had this, like, objective way of looking at things and just being able to bring people together. So, yeah, my first name means a lot to me. So that's my family name. But if anyone call me anything other than Kutso, I'd be really offended because actually in my native language it's not quite pronounced Khutso, pronounced Ku Jo. But then that has all sorts of implications in terms of spelling. So I've decided Khutso is who I want the world to call me. And that's exactly how I'd like to be. A name is really important. And Joanne Lockwood: it is, yeah, I'm obviously proud of my name. I like my name, I chose my own name. But yeah, it is really important because it's part of your identity, isn't it? And certainly if it's got a meaning behind that name. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Yes, yes. And I've always thought it so interesting. You know, I deliberately, of course, have my own name, but I deliberately called my children specifically names and I notice their personalities just kind of morph around those names, you know, what you call yourself every day, I think does something to your psyche in terms of the choices you do, the choices you make. I'd argue it's very interesting. Very, very interesting and important. So you've lived Joanne Lockwood: in eight countries, you're a woman of African descent, you're a single mother. What does that also mean to you about your identity, who you are, what's your place in the world? You know, Jo name. When I was a little girl Dr Khutso Madubanya: growing up during apartheid in South Africa, I grew up in the 80s in South Africa. Well, I was born in the 70s, but I grew up in the 80s during apartheid in South Africa. Women, and still today, women. The fact that women get to take a man's last name really bothered me. From the time I was a little girl, I was the only daughter. I'd have two brothers. I just always felt like my place in the family was threatened by the fact that I was a girl. I am a girl. The fact that, you know, growing up, you are conscientious from a very young age, that one day you are going to leave your family and go join somebody else's through marriage. We have. The dowry system called lobola has, I'm sure, traditionally had its significance, and I'm sure it does some wonders in some circles. But as a young girl, I truly just interpreted that as I'm gonna get sold off one day and I'm gonna stop being myself. I'm gonna lose, you know, I'm no longer gonna be a Madhubanya. And I'm the only one that's disposable around here. I really grew up feeling disposable because, you know, when little boys play, you play too. But you're also reminded you also need to remember, you need to learn how to. How to cook. You need to remember, you need to learn how to clean the house because you're going to get married off someday to somebody else's family, and you're going to change your entire identity, everybody, everything that you are, your sense of belonging in the world. That pushed me to become extremely, One, rebellious and two, independent. I became fiercely independent. So by the, you know, around the age of 17, I left South Africa. Hence, I've lived in eight countries. I left South Africa, luckily, armed with a scholarship, I was raised by a really strong woman who made sure, you know, I did. She did prepare me to be somebody's wife one day. But she also made sure, as you did, you know, in that era, you don't want your child to depend on A man for the rest of their lives. And so through her guidance and all excelled academically, got myself a scholarship. 17, 18. I left the country because I rebelled against that whole culture of, you know, essentially disrespecting women. Women are just there to serve. Girl. If you're a girl child, yes, you can get all this education, you can do whatever, you can be amazing, but at the end of the day, you're disposable. You need to earn your keep, essentially. So I left the country and I just never quite went back until when I started having kids 20 years later. I had a difficult time, you know, I had a really difficult relationship and I needed to go back to, to, to reconnect with family and get some support there and lived there for about 10 years and then decided to come back. I mean, yeah, that's a long and short. I've been driven to rebel against the notion that women have to earn their worth in society. And I've seen how that's in me translated into this, what is called now I know hyper independence. You make choices from the place of fear. You make choices from the place of needing to prove your worth. And now I realise it's not just me because I was raised in black South Africa and all of that. It's a common trait around the world. I just released my first book, Normal Free Passes that unpacks this whole storey. It's a part memoir, part manifesto. I've had quite a few people come back to me already and say, oh my gosh, this is not just a South African thing, it's not just a you thing, and it's not even just a woman thing. There are so many people out there, especially so called high achievers, right, Overachievers. We are strong, we can do it all. We don't need anybody, we don't ask for help. And we think all of that is a strength. But it's a trauma response, It's a real trauma response. At some point I learned the hard way that actually all of this, not only is it not sustainable, but there's nothing virtuous about just leads to burnout. And none of us need that in this day. Okay, now I went off a tangent. I don't know. I answered your question. It started with the name no. Joanne Lockwood: I'm very moved actually by your words. I've never had heard somebody say what you've just said. With so much lived experience, so much conviction, so much passion in a way that's really rattled my cage, if you like. I've never really Thought about your storey. The way you've told it, you know, being raised as a young girl with the expectation of being chattel and sold like cattle with a. With a dowry and less valuable as a. As a. As a wife. Your. A baby giver. You're there to serve a husband, a man. I'd never. I'd never. Whilst I was aware, I'd never really thought about it in the way you've just described it. And that. That's. That's so powerful. It's quite moving. Thank you, Joanne. You Dr Khutso Madubanya: just reminded me of something else I omitted to share. Speaking of identity and names, remember we started with Cuzzo Marbana. Now, rebelling against exactly what you just summed up. The fear that one day I was gonna get kicked out of my home. And the fact that you know, every time you leave the house and you're in public circles, you get branded. When you fill out forms, you have to pick. You're a Ms. M I s s. You're a Mrs. You're married or you're not married. As if. Sorry, you can tell I'm still very mad. As if your marital status matters. Do men have to do that? And here we're just talking strictly binary. Heterosexual. I know there's a whole spectrum, but I'm just talking the two extremes here, because that's the world I grew up in. Do men ever. Did men. Do men ever have to declare their marital status on a form? No. And you know what? Why? I excelled academically and truly. You don't want to know how many degrees I have. It's embarrassing how many degrees I have. I decided I'm gonna become Dr. Marutanya. I'm gonna be that. I'm gonna get my doctorate, even if it kills me, because I refuse to have to declare to the world every single time I fill out a form whether I'm married or not. What has love Got to do with it? Does it. That's a good song. That's what it is. That's right. As a Tina Tanner. Got to do. Got to do with it. Yeah, I know, but what. Why does it matter? Why does it matter, really, if men can get away with it, why can't women? Yeah. You've also, by Joanne Lockwood: using doctor, you're not only not declaring you're married or not married, you're also declaring anonymity in terms of your gender or who you are. Really judge me on what I produce. Yeah. Yes, that's also very true. And I felt it especially Dr Khutso Madubanya: more recently, you know, with my last relocation. I said we moved to Michigan about four years ago. Now there's a whole storey around that I had just broken up from the love of my life. It was quite unexpected. That was my children's stepfather. And so they, you know, as I was working through the heartbreak and in my very staunchly, extremely fiercely independent way, you know, I can do it all. I'm gonna pick up my children and go live exactly where I want to live. Found myself at that point. I didn't have my doctorate yet. Found myself thinking, you know what? I would feel a lot more prepared or a lot more protected if I had my doctorate, because wherever I go. I moved to Michigan, I didn't know anybody here. It just looked pretty. I mean, I Googled it and I wanted nice places to live and I thought, it sounds like a nice place to raise my kids. And so I knew I would not have a support structure here. And I knew. I thought the one weapon I wish I had four years ago was my doctorate, because I would get there. The minute you get there, you fill out forms. No one's going to have to, you know, have to think, oh, it's a woman, she's not married, she has kids, she's a single mom, she's black, she's this, she's that. You're a doctor, period. And that alone opens a whole lot of, you know, opportunities, conversations that you otherwise won't have. When people are preoccupying themselves with boxing you into anything other than your innate worth that you're born with, which is what my book is about. We're all just born with innate worth. You know, this whole notion that you need to get a doctorate before somebody respects you, it's ridiculous, really. And I know a whole chunk of it is in my mind, you know, not everybody feels that way, but it really troubled me that. And still does, well, maybe to a less extent with the. With the titles these days, because there is an Ms. And, you know, depending on where you live, you can be a lot more accommodating and less accommodating of people's marital status, sexual orientation, whatnot. But it still really bothers me that things of that nature matter in society. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I mean, I use Ms. Because I am married to my wife. She's been married for best part of 38 years. It didn't make sense to me to be Mrs. Also, my surname, my family name is not the family name I was born with, so I changed it at the same time I changed my first name for various reasons. So there is. There is no Mr. Lockwood or even another Mrs. Lockwood. And sometimes I get, I get post or emails addressed to Mr. And Mrs. Lockwood or that, or sometimes I'll be called Mr. Lockwood because of my voice and things like that. So, yeah, it is interesting the assumptions people make based on that title that Ms. That Mr. The Ms. Dr Khutso Madubanya: No, it's crazy. It really is. It really bothered. It bothered me from the time I was very, very young. I said so then after I got to Michigan, you know, I had started this doctorate a long time ago. I told you I even lived in Nottingham. That was one of the times I attempted to do a doctorate. This doctorate had been in the works by the time I finished it two years ago. It had been in the works for over 25 years with like stops and goes and marriages and breakups and children and, and all of that. Truly at that, you know, when I got here and I realised I wish as a single mom I had that extra layer of, you know, what I felt would be protection to not. Among other things, I just said, this is it, all right, I'm doing this, I'm finishing it. So it was a really tumultuous time, but I finished it. So who benefits most Joanne Lockwood: from the doctor title? Is it you and your imposter syndrome? Does it give you more confidence? Does it give you a boost? Does it enhance your own sense of self worth? Or does it actually change the perception that other people have of you as well? Or is it a combination of those things? The truth is probably a combination of Dr Khutso Madubanya: both. But it means a lot to me for myself, you know, dealing with that imposter Joe. And I'm going to tell you the largest storey of what happened in the last four years. But people are very surprised when I tell them because they look at me and they're like, well, you're such a, you know, you're such an overachiever. You've got all these degrees, you've had all these fabulous careers, you've lived around the world, you, you name it. But that whole feeling worth, like you said, imposter syndrome is something I work on every day. I have posters around, actually, you can see them. But I have little post it notes all over my house. I am enough. I am worthy. I have them in the car, I have them in the bathroom, I have them in the kitchen because I need to remind myself and my children every day that you don't need to earn your worth. You are born worthy. And yes, I think there's this title doctor. It helps. If nothing else, it's what do they call it? Bucket list item checked off, right? Yeah. But yeah, I feel that it psychologically also helps me to be more bold. And I should give you permission to speak, does Joanne Lockwood: it? Permission to speak, Permission to be heard. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Yes. And I shouldn't have to do that. That's what I realised through my journey, writing my first book that I just released. Normal free passes. You don't need to go through all this trouble to feel some, some. You don't need permission. You do not need permission to be, to exist. You're not disposable. Your worth is not in question, you're born with it. Just because you exist, you're a worthwhile human being. Like I said, it's something I work on every day. And I, as I was journeying through the book writing process, I reflected back on a whole bunch of things, including why I came to feel that way, which I already shared with you. And also their realisation that this is pretty universal just happening to me. I've had so many people, as I said, really resonate with this as an issue because you end up with traits like you don't ask for help, you, nothing, Joe petrifies me more than asking for help. I know it sounds silly, right? But for some of us, if you all your life have thought that, you know, asking for help makes you look weak, it means you don't have it together since you are superwoman or super person or whatever, man, it's petrifying. So I've been working a lot on building, reminding myself, because it's not as though we don't know these things. Just reminding myself of my worth, innate worth, as I said, through those little signs I have around my house, but also articulating how it is that I am helping myself and others make that connection between their well being, their innate worth and the choices they make. And always stems Joanne Lockwood: back to your childhood where you were rebelling against being property, being sold something only a person only existed for the benefit of a man. That's where your lifelong insecurity, for want of a better way of saying it, is developed. And the imposter syndrome and your lack of self worth. And you've had to reclaim that. It's taken you most of your life to reclaim that. Right? Right. Which I did, Dr Khutso Madubanya: as I said, outwardly, through degrees, through careers, through that, through that. But at the end of the day, I'm going to share a storey with you that now tells you how I started to realise that this is an internal machine. It's an internal issue. Not Something word is not something you earn outwardly. It's something that, you know, you. You really have need in you. All right, so, Becca, four years ago, I already mentioned, we moved here. The catalyst was a big breakup, right from the love of my life with my children's stepfather. And we moved to Michigan and a whole series of things happened. Within a couple of weeks of arriving here, I lost my job. Dun, dun, dun. And now I'm in Michigan. It's November, snowing, it's cold. We're in our excitedly unfurnished pardon me. And I know nobody. As if that were not enough fast forward we get through those difficult months. You know, I went in the us, I think they have this in the UK as well. You know, it's called unemployment. You get benefits from retirement. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. You get on the dough if you like. Never been on the dough in Dr Khutso Madubanya: my life. It was a humbling experience. When you apply, you know, people, that's. Again, are you a miss or misses You're a single mom, you're a statistic, you know, especially you're a black single mom. You live in the hood. It's like, do you know? You know. But anyway, went through that humbling experience of getting the help I needed from the government. And as part of that, I ended up opening a whole can of worms that I didn't see coming. There was a whole legal case that arose from that, which lasted a whole two years. So now I'm unemployed. There's this legal case hovering over me. I'm trying to adjust to living in a new country. I'm helping three children. Did I say two out of the three are twins? And at the time there were 12 and seven in a foreign country on my own, all those factors together, and then luckily I get another job. Right now we're over the hump with the unemployment, but because I was so desperate at the time, I took the job. The first job that looked like would pay the bills. And I didn't think about or I didn't even realise it was a career pivot. I didn't realise I knew nothing about it. I thought I knew, but I didn't. I was just in such desperation at the time. I need a job. I need a job in a foreign country. It's freezing. We need food, the children, you know, we just got here and I know nobody. I accept this job and this job turned out to be a nightmare for a little bit. It was a nightmare. I mean, I knew absolutely nothing about this. This is now beginning of 2022 legal cases full Steam ahead. I just started this new career path that I knew nothing about. I mean, I found myself reporting to supervisors that are young enough to be my children, among other things. I'm learning everything. Entry level, you know, moving from having run my own agency and I was a senior economist in South Africa, I was running multilateral discussions on behalf of my country. Now I'm coming back to report to some 25 year old who's teaching me how to fill out an invoice. But I need the job because they'll pay me well for it and they'll let me work at home because I have no help, I have no support. Now back up. I'm going through this new job that's really testing me in really difficult ways. I'm helping the children acclimatise to a new country, there's new schools, everything is different for them. Same for me. There's this legal case that just came up. Amidst all of that I decided, shoot, it's time to finish that PhD. That was the push I needed. But in all of this. So now I'm doing all of that on top with a PhD and I'm juggling like crazy between the legal case. Every paycheck is now going to pay the attorney, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm juggling everything fast and curious. And I remember it was exactly 3am sometime it was, I think it was spring or summer, 2022. In the middle of the night, I look at the clock, 3am and my mind just won't stop racing. You know when you're going through hormonal changes, something happens at 3am you wake up and you can go back to sleep, among other things. Now I'm awake because I'm also stressed. There's the court case, there's this, there's that you're worried about, you know, is this child making good friends? Are the new friends nice to them? You know, what activities can I put the kids in? All of that, all of that. And so my brain is racing like crazy at that time and I thought to myself, Kurzel, there's absolutely no glory whatsoever in doing it all. Whatever gave me the impression that it was even anything desirable to want to do it all, do it all alone this whole fast. You know, it really hit me like a tonne of bricks. And then I started to question myself because I was realising, oh, I'm burnt out, I'm really burnt out and I have nobody burned out and have nobody other than my kids. But then my kids are looking up to me for strength they don't even know that, you know, I'm having difficulties with work and they know a little bit about the legal case, but they don't really understand what's going on and all of that. And I started, that's when I started to dig deep inside for two things. One, needed to, I, I started questioning why I ever thought that doing it all was a good aspiration. And then second, I needed serious coping mechanism. I was going through the, the megastore, right? So I needed to find a way to get through the storm. And I realised with no support structure, the only support I had, the only weapon I had was my mind. And that's how I ended up inadvertently creating a framework that I now teach. I call it pivot. It's an acronym P I V O T. It's a mindset tool that helps people navigate change with less fear and more agility. And I've, and I now looking back, realise I've used this framework myself all my life, but especially in the last four years and even helping me make that paradigm switch in my head from needing to prove to realising innate self worth. So has that made you have Joanne Lockwood: fixed yourself? You don't, you're no longer chasing more validation or you still, you're still on that conveyor belt? Of course I'm Dr Khutso Madubanya: still on the conveyor belt. I'll always be on the conveyor belt. You know, this tool that I say I've developed, Pivot, I apply it for myself every day as I do the posts, the post it notes I have around my house. It's a work in progress and I like to share it because I realise so many people find it helpful while they're going through transitions. And also this whole self worth thing, the deep worth is something that I found has been helpful to people. It helps some people and doesn't help others. But I'm very transparent about the fact that I'm a work in progress and I like to share my journey, hoping that I'm one step ahead of somebody, only one step and they can learn from the one step ahead that I am from them. Along with learning from other people, of course. So what is the kind of root Joanne Lockwood: cause of a lack of self worth? Is it, is it a childhood trauma or childhood socialisation or is it, does it manifest itself in different ways or in different people? Couldn't tell you universally. You know, if we're talking Dr Khutso Madubanya: self, you know, I can tell you about this trait called hyper independence where people become extremely self reliant for them. That is, that's One I've researched quite deeply. The root cause for that usually is a combination. It can be childhood rejection. And I do have, I do remember the day I decided I was never going to ask for help again. I remember it distinctly. And it can also just be historical. For some people, it's just being transmuted generation after generation. Nobody even questions it anymore. It's just the way you do things. But it's usually based around some kind of hurt. It's not something that is a value. It's a virtue, as I like to say. So you mentioned the fear of Joanne Lockwood: change. How do you encourage or how do you help people through that, overcoming that fear? Because often it's the, this belief that the step you're about to take is off of a cliff edge, but in reality is often only an inch, a centimetre, whatever it is. So your fear of that unknown is built into huge magnitudes in your head. But reality is, it's not. Absolutely. Dr Khutso Madubanya: You're right, Jo. And it's in the, it's in the mind. Right? Hands. My framework, pivot is a, it's a, it's, it's a mindset tool. So let me unpack it for you. So when you're faced with change, the way I like to, to share it with my audiences through keynotes and talks and workshops, when you're faced with change, the only weapon really you have readily, that's not external to you is your mind. And you can tell yourself empowering messages or you can tell yourself messages that are going to amplify the fear and make you feel weak. So through my experience, I've learned five mind conversations. That's what I call mindset tools that temper the fear. So the first one is pause. P stands for pause. Remember, pivot is an acronym. When faced with change, you're thrown with something unexpected. Most of us, our reaction is to want to fight back, right? We want to react, we want to lash out. But I have learned there is a lot of value in exactly doing the opposite. Do nothing. And I don't mean do, think about it. I mean do nothing. That circuitry. Don't think, don't do anything, do nothing. Quite literally. The purpose here is to feel. Because as a hyper independent person, we don't feel. We act. We're actors, you know, we avoid feeling. But feeling. When you give yourself that break, you give your, your mind the opportunity to rest and start to think clearly. Because blood rushes to your extremities in times of shock, right? It doesn't go to your brain. So by pausing, intentionally pausing, doing nothing, you allow yourself to reset. Then the second part, the second trick. If I just jump in on the Joanne Lockwood: pause, you're saying, doing nothing. As you were speaking, I was thinking, actually, you're not actually doing nothing. Because if you pause, the world still carries on moving. So what you're doing is you may be doing nothing. But the world, the scenario, the thing you're pausing from, still plays. If you take your foot off, if you accelerator in a car, the car still does something, it still moves forward. So by pausing, what can happen? As you're talking, I'm thinking the world itself can bring clarity because you open the next page or the next chapter unfurls, or more frames in the video come by, I now have more information. Had I not waited, I would not have had that new information. And so, sorry, I was just thinking, when you said that pausing is actually not doing nothing, it's not a neutral act, it's a positive act to allow other things to occur, isn't it? Yes. You put Dr Khutso Madubanya: it so well, Joe. In fact, I had not ever thought about that way. The fact that the world moves and then you're able to catch the new wisdom that reveals itself. I've always thought about it from the perspective of immediately detaching from the trigger. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, Stopping your chimp brain, your amygdala, that crazy bit, bring it back into the prefrontal cortex, slow your thinking down. But also that pause allows you to observe, to listen. Yes. Yes, you're so right. Both things Dr Khutso Madubanya: happen, actually. Thank you. I'm going to use it in my next workshop. Go for Joanne Lockwood: it. Go for it. Because both things actually occur, right? Not Dr Khutso Madubanya: only do you allow your mind to calm, but the world does reveal your solution. And you're able to see it a lot better that way. Yeah. Thank you. Have you ever heard of a Joanne Lockwood: technique called rubber ducking? No, I'm not. Well, apparently it's quite big in tech circles, so people are doing coding and programming. I can't remember who invented it, but if you Google it or it's on Wikipedia, you can cheque it out what it is. The act of speaking out loud actually sometimes helps you to process things. So if you try and think of it in your head, it stays manifested inside. But once you speak something out loud, it allows you to verbalise. And then a different part of your brain hears yourself back and then you're structuring it. So rubber ducking is you take yourself a rubber duck. So in this case, I've got a little squidgy shark and you put it on the shelf and you talk to the shark, talk to the rubber duck and you tell it, tell it the problem. It doesn't answer back. So it's a bit like mentoring and coaching. You don't actually need the person you're telling to answer back. You just need someone to listen and hear you. The rubber ducking is this technique where you put the rubber duck on the shelf and you go and talk to it. And this company had this rule that you weren't allowed to ask for help until you'd spoken to the duck first. Because nine times out of 10, you solve your own problem by verbalising it. Sorry, I was just picking up on again, the pause. It's that reflect, it's that verbalization to somehow lift yourself into a different mind place by verbalising it. Sorry, I interrupted your pivot there. Dr Khutso Madubanya: No, no, no, this is fantastic because each of the acronyms is full. It's a full discussion. We can obviously do a whole podcast on pausing alone. And I'm so loving how I'm learning just as much from you as I'm sharing my storeys. I be sure to share that technique. But you know, another thing I emphasise with pausing, as I already alluded to, to it, is the feeling. Man, you have no idea how much I have hated feeling all my life. I always, I've always said, well, I'm cerebral, you know, I'm intellectual. These feeling things. No, no, But I've learned the value of feeling the feelings, sitting with the feeling. Are you angry? Are you disappointed? Where does it hurt? Allow yourself to feel it. And in allowing yourself to do that, I find it actually goes away if you sit with it long enough. It works itself through your system. So, yes, that's another thing about pausing. Right, yeah. Well, they say time's a great healer, isn't it? Joanne Lockwood: You know, you're having big arguments in your family, big arguments with somebody else, big disagreements. Sometimes just let it, let it settle. Pause, as you say, pause. Time moves, situations change, new information comes to light. You calm down, they calm down. Suddenly you can have a conversation that you couldn't have had at the time. Exactly, exactly, Dr Khutso Madubanya: exactly. All because you know what I advocate is at all cost, try to avoid reacting that knee jerk reaction, you know, reacting as a major response to shock, power, change. Right, yeah, I agree. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I completely agree. It's the wrong part of your brain gets engaged. It's the bit at the back, the amygdala kicks in and then you've got no control over your adrenaline and your vagus nerve kicks in and your fight flight freeze mechanism kicks in and suddenly everything gets tense. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Right, right, right. Okay. And then can I move on to I? Yes. I don't know how we're doing on time. Keep going. I don't know how we're doing on time. Joanne Lockwood: Let's go for the I. Where's the I? What's the I now? I Dr Khutso Madubanya: is for introspect. Now, what are we introspecting here? Identity. Your identity in relation to the new team. Now, this is where the whole doctorate thing came along. Joe, can you see me? My computer? Yeah, I can see it. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: you're loud and clear. Okay, keep going. Yeah, all good. Okay. Dr Khutso Madubanya: So now this is where that whole discussion around the doctorate, how I needed that as a shield, comes into play all these years, because I realised that. Let me give you an example. With this new job where I said, you know, it was a really humbling experience, I realised that the more I held on to my old identity as the CEO of my own company, the senior economist for the South African government, the college professor I was, the harder it made it to embrace the job and just flow with it and be teachable in the job. I needed the job. I couldn't quit, Jo. It wasn't a choice I had. But was I going to give myself a heart attack? No. I decided that's what I. I call dancing with change. Oftentimes we find ourselves in circumstances we can't control. Are we going to push back? Or can we find a way to flow with whatever is thrown at us? So through pivot, actually, all the acronyms I found by implementing all five, I'm still going to unpack the risk. It just eased my resistance to change. So going back to I and the identity behind introspecting, I found that by telling myself, as I was going through every morning when I logged into work, I tell myself things like, you know what? It's okay. Nobody knows me here. I don't get paid to be brilliant here. I get paid to learn how to do invoices. And it's great that nobody knows me then. I don't have my, you know, I don't have to worry about what people are thinking about me. It doesn't matter. Did that whole identity of myself as the CEO, as the college professor, as the economist, as this and that, did that serve me in this new role? No, it did not. So the sooner I let it go, the quicker I release the resistance, my resistance towards this new job. So when I give my talks, what I do suggest around I. No matter what the new team, no matter the transition perspective, think about how your new identity relates to the new position and way, whether your old identity still serves you. Because you'll be so surprised at how freeing it is to let go of that identity that no longer serves you. Just let it go. So what that you were a college professor? So what that you know your boss? You could have taught your boss. Doesn't matter. You are here now. Is this the only job you're ever going to get? No. Is this who you are? Does it define who you are? No, it does not define who I am. Does it define what I'm capable of? It does not define what I'm capable of. Let it go. It's just a job. It really doesn't matter. So that's what introspect is about. Love it. Love it. Go on, then. I can't wait for the Joanne Lockwood: V. Go for it, then. V. V Dr Khutso Madubanya: stands for vector. And by vector, I mean rest. Remember, these are all mindset tools. These are conversations you're having with yourself. Tell yourself, this is a new change. I'm thrilled. This new circumstance, I may not know how to handle it, how I'm going to get on the other side of it. Got my history. I've got skills that I already know that can help me learn whatever it is that I need to learn to get through this. So, in short, I always say, use the old to learn the new. And this may sound really silly, but it's very powerful. I have found, going back to the example with my job, all right, never fill down and, you know, never learned that invoicing system that you. That I do at work. Right. I was feeling like an idiot the whole time. It's like, oh, gosh, what am I going to do here? There's so much about this job I didn't know. And then I. And I needed to keep the job. I did not want to be kicked out. I did not want to lose the job because of me not performing. So I decided, all right, what can I do and do well here that will make me indispensable, that will make me fireproof, if you like, that will still make me useful in this position. So I thought, oh, I know how to organise. Is this the core chunk of the work? No, but this place needs systems. I'm a mom. I can organise in my head and I know math. I can add. So I may not understand how this whole system works, but I can make sure that the numbers are adding up correctly. And it's through these small little Things that I started to gain my own confidence to say, look, I have done. I can do this. And of course, I became indispensable because everybody knew, you know, everybody wants to know that the math is right. Everybody needs to be organised. But one other powerful thing I did through this journey, every single night, I'd sit back and think, kutzo, what did you do today that you couldn't do yesterday? And I celebrated my wins. I just patted myself on the shoulder. Look good. So you figured it out because you already had the basics. You had. Hey, if you can add, you already have basics. If you can speak, you already have basics. Start from wherever you are. Just know. Find peace in knowing. I got this because I already have a launching pad. I already have a foundation that makes change a lot less scary. Are you ready for the next one or did you want to talk some more about. Yep. No, let's. No, let's get to the end. Joanne Lockwood: I'm dying to hear what O and T are. So let's do the O. And Dr Khutso Madubanya: then O stands for overcoming the fear of making mistakes. When I give my talks, I always say, overcoming the suck. You're gonna suck. Excuse my French joke. Don't know if you allow language like that here, but just understand that you're gonna make mistakes. And it's okay. Because one thing I also realised as I was learning this job, that I spent far too much energy beating myself up over mistakes, over making a fool of myself. And I found that by just not taking it so seriously. Understand that, sure, I made mistakes. And so what if everybody's laughing at me? And most importantly, I think everybody's laughing at me. They're probably not. People are too busy. People are too busy with their lives. So what if I was humiliated today? So what if I made a fool of myself? I mean, it really. Life is not so serious at the end of the day. You know, just laugh, have some humour about your mistakes and not be so afraid to make mistakes to begin with. That I also found very freeing as I was going through my transitions and being afraid of being judged, because that's a big thing with fear and change. You can be petrified by just the fear of being judged because you think people are going to think of less than you. Release that and then T. T is the power. 1. Just travel forward. T stands for travel forward and don't look back. The second part is extremely important. Commit to. This is the life I have. Now. I am stuck in this job that I hate. I cannot keep wishing I was still the economist Or I was still the CEO of my own company. That only creates friction in my head. It only splits my energy. If I took all my energies and focused on just being here, travelling forward instead of looking back the whole time and beating myself up for having made the choices that landed me here. Or wishing I was still married to the love of my life or wishing I was still living in Thailand because Michigan is so cold. Looking back does not serve you. Sometimes when you're going through change, it only makes it a lot more cumbersome than just letting it go. You just. Okay, I'm here now. There's a lot less resistance to it now. That was pivot five. These are the mindset text. Joanne Lockwood: Love it. So we have pause Introspect vector. Overcome your fear and T. Travel. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Travel forward and don't look back. Love it. I love it. Because Joanne Lockwood: as you're talking I was thinking about, you mentioned about making mistakes. Talk about learning, growing and moving on. And one of the four tenets of psychological safety is the ability to learn and make mistakes and be supported in that environment. So if you're constantly worried about messing up, making it and fearful of that, you're never going to be able to sort of find your, your higher plane, if you like of existence because you're always stuck into that layer of, of worrying about messing up and sometimes you've got to overcome that. And as you say, travel, just move forward. You're going to make mistakes, you're going to get it wrong. If you, if you get stuck in the moment, you'll always be that same person. To grow, you've got to keep going forward. And I also like the way you talk about introspect. I always think about that as one of the tenets of emotional intelligence is that self awareness, that introspectiveness better challenge who you are because until you understand who you are, how can you understand other people? How can you understand where you're going? And I think there's a really, really valuable. Simple. Five little words. Simple but very effective. Yeah, I resonate with those completely. Thank Dr Khutso Madubanya: you. No, they've definitely helped me. Now go. Speaking of introspect again and that identity thing, I really noticed you know, your identity because introspect, you can introspect on a whole host of different things. But I advocate you focus on identity because who you see yourself as defines how you see the world. That was the. And how do you want to be seen as well, you know, you Joanne Lockwood: have to cheque the alignment between who you are, how you want to be and how people Actually perceived you, the Johari window, almost. You have to sort of work out where you fit into that, into that sort of model, really. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. But that identity, what's in a name, among other things. Right. That's where we started. We've come full circle on that topic. Yeah. I mean, Joanne Lockwood: for many, many years I didn't know what my name was because I was changing it. I was trying to find my new identity. And you'd be surprised how often your name is the first thing you have to. You have to put on the form, it's put on your cv. First thing people ask you is, what's your name? If you're not sure about that identity, that name, how you see yourself, it's really hard to move past that. So you've got to be really clear on who you are, haven't you? Yes, Dr Khutso Madubanya: yes. And really have it align with your truth, internal truth, whatever that truth is. That alignment is also so important. Yes. You have a really interesting storey, Jo. Never thought about that. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. But I think, for sure, I think it's worth investing time in yourself to be really sure of your strong foundation of who you are, what your values are, what's important to you. We talked about letting go of stuff, stuff that doesn't serve you. You know, we talked about that and we're not careful. What we do is we hang on to all these beliefs, all these things that we believe are true, but really they're just as transient. We can let go of them, we can move forward. Because when you talk about travelling, you can't carry all that baggage on every journey, can you? You've travelled, you've moved eight times, eight different countries. You've not got all the baggage you had as a, as a five year old girl in South Africa, have you? Right, right, right, right. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Yeah. No, we can carry so much even subconsciously that we don't realise. I know you just talked about baggage, the physical, bad analogy. But it's amazing how much more psychological damage baggage, rather we carry through life. Well, the things that say, Joanne Lockwood: you can't do this, you can't do that little nag on your shoulder, the Jiminy Cricket characters telling you all the time, your conscience, the conversations you have with yourself in your head, they can't do beating yourself up when it. You think, actually, was that good enough? Right. Was it? Perfection is the enemy of the good or whatever. Mindfulness. Yes, Dr Khutso Madubanya: yes, yes. Now, going back to those high achievers, you know, we are renowned for maladies like that perfectionist syndrome and, and all of that. It's, it's quite crazy, Quite crazy how much we punish ourselves looking for that validation. Come on, Abbott. It took me a while to realise Joanne Lockwood: I thought I was a perfectionist. I thought I had to have things perfect because I think that came from my father. The way he taught me, brought me up and insisted I had that mindset. When I realised I didn't actually, I wasn't capable of perfection myself. I didn't, I found it too restrictive. I wasn't trying to strive for perfection. What I actually like is perfection in others. I seek betterment in others and I often find I can be quite critical where people aren't living up to my expectations. But I realised that I wasn't actually very good at my own perfection. So I've tried to match my outward desire for perfection versus my internal ability to live it myself. So I, I, I no longer chase it. In the same way, I often say that good enough is good enough. Does it do, will it work? Yeah. Does it, Is it, is it going to get the train out of the station? Yes. Well, let's, let's just get the train out the station and as you said, work out the vector, Work out your, your, your travel, your time and your speed and then just keep tweaking it as you go. You know, if you need to turn the wheel, go off in the other direction, do it. But, yeah, get moving. Momentum is better than stationary. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we could talk about just perfectionism. It's a whole other. Yeah, no worms. Yeah. But obviously you're Joanne Lockwood: striving for your doctorate and you're producing your thesis and everything like that. That must be a whole bundle of perfectionism you're putting into that. Oh, Dr Khutso Madubanya: I did. I mean, I finished my doctorate two years ago. Yes, it did take quite a bit of rigour, even beyond my own standards. When you're in a doctoral programme, and that was my fifth doctoral programme, really, you find other ultra perfectionists who are the gatekeepers My kids and I used to laugh at. I had this professor who was one of the gatekeepers, you know, rewrite this and you didn't cite enough and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, man, that's another whole humbling experience. I think about it, and in light of this newfound truth of mine around self worth and chasing credential, when my kids ask me, mom, do you think I should get a doctorate? I think, gosh, now that's just, that's a difficult way to prove or to, you know, I don't know, maybe people have other reasons to do It. But when I look back at those perfectionists who expected that crazy level of rigour only so that they can now say, now you've joined the league of us, we, we can now call you doctor. It just sounds so silly. It seems so superfluous. At some point that seemed like the big. I mean, yes, I needed to get that, you know, and one could also argue that because of course now I have the doctorate and now maybe I'm looking at the next mile post, who knows? I don't mean to discourage people who. Are passionate about it, but you need a professorship. You need Joanne Lockwood: to get yourself onto some faculty where you can now teach other doctors. Yeah. And then be that Dr Khutso Madubanya: horrible gatekeeper teacher, chastise them into the academy, pull their. Thoughts apart and tell them they're not. They have to rethink it. Joanne Lockwood: And they really. Yeah, it's only 90,000 words. You should have written 95,000 words. It's like, oh, my Dr Khutso Madubanya: goodness. Oh my goodness. No, that was crazy. That was absolutely crazy. I guess we all have our own relationship to the goals that we set. I can tell you I'm certainly not the person I was when I started this doctor 25 years ago. Definitely not. And that's why I stopped. And you know, I had so many stops and goals because there were so many times in my life where I actually questioned whether this was worthwhile. But again, my drive truly ended up being that whole self worth thing. I did not. I mean, I just, I wanted to stop having been having to be labelled everywhere I went. You're married, you're not married, you have kids. But you know, this whole thing of parenting alone, that's another whole thing that I discuss in my book, no More Free Passes. There's a whole chapter that I talk about single motherhood, specifically, not single parenting, but single motherhood. You know, South Africa, black South African society can be really rough. Really, really, really hard. Even today towards mothers, especially young mothers, there's this double standard where mothers, single mothers especially, are somewhat frowned down upon. You're just like, what happened to you? You are less than because you're raising these kids on your own. And does anyone say the same about the dad, wherever they are? Or do they even say the same about single dad? You know, single dads are the superheroes and they are ever so attractive and sexy. Right? But single moms, they just, oh, oh, God, poor woman, what happened to her? Doesn't matter. If you have seven doctorates and you're doing all these wonderful things, you still just. Joanne Lockwood: You'Re just a Single mother. You're just a single without. We need to erase that and we need to celebrate all of the single mothers, all of the, all of the women that have escaped their programming from being property of a man and saying no, no more. And do you know how, Dr Khutso Madubanya: you know, a good. In the United states, a good 25% of households are single mom only. There is no. The other partner, the father. I'm talking strictly heterosexual here. The father figure is not there. Nobody is saying anything about that. I mean, and then South Africa, the statistics are even higher. It's staggering, absolutely staggering. Yet the double standard there, it's very, it's very painful. It really is another reason why I wrote normal three passes. And there's a reason why I entitled my book Normal Free Passes. It was my, what shall I call it, call out to myself, to society to say there's so much that we are just, you know, that we're just overlooking. We're giving so many free passes to seek to, to people and situations that we shouldn't. I for one will tell you I'm a people pleaser. I will take on other people's responsibilities because I'd rather do it on my own. And I think, or I used to think it was virtuous. And you have a society that backs that up. You're a superwoman. This is wonderful. You're a go getter. So normal free pass is from two levels. The individual level, which is especially those of us who, you know, have thought erroneously because now a lot of us are burned out. We just burned out, right? We just don't want to do it anymore. But some people won't say it yet, but we just burnt out. It's too much. But we found ourselves doing it all, quite literally, however, whatever journey took us there, but we are doing it all right. And then from the criticising or, or, or challenge in society to say, if we have, you know, this situation and we're glorifying, we're glorifying overwork. We're glorifying, we're equating performance with virtue. You know, if you don't perform, then you're not worthwhile. Your worth is your, is your performance. So I challenge both levels and I say no more free passes. I even have a manifesto in there. It's a movement, I call it no more Free Passes manifesto, where I bail out what we shall no longer accept and what we shall now seek out. One is help. We want and demand support so we don't have to carry it all. And we certainly do not glorify overwork and self sacrifice anymore. We don't need to prove anyone's worth. I didn't mention the subtitle of my book is. Actually the main title is Normal Free Passes. The subtitle is For Strong Women who no Longer Want to Prove Themselves. And I made it women because I tell everything from a woman's perspective. But I've had many readers who have said to me, this applies to everybody. A lot of strange, strong personalities have the same traumas and have the same issues. So it's really for strong people who refuse to prove themselves anymore. Nobody has to prove themselves anymore. So that. That's my. That's my passion at the moment, growing building that movement, the Normal Free Passes movement, as part of the Dancing With Change movement, which is the large umbrella. So I'm also working on my next book, Dancing With Change, which I expect will be available in the spring. But Normal Free Passes is currently available. I hear some really funny noises. Can you hear that? Joanne Lockwood: That was my puppy shaking itself. Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Yeah, Now I was just sharing. No More Free Passes is out. People are interested. It's available. They can go to my website, dancewithchange.com it's available through Bookstore Buy already. And it will be available globally in about four weeks in bookstores around the world. Joanne Lockwood: Fabulous. And people can get hold of you on LinkedIn as Khutso Madubanya. Madubanya. Sorry, I used to pronounce your name Madubanya. Madurba. Yeah, Dr Khutso Madubanya: yeah, yeah. On LinkedIn and dance with all those. Joanne Lockwood: Details in the show notes. We're the tags on the episode. So, Dr. Khutso, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you about your Pivot Mantra method. Really interesting. Really interesting. And I'll look up your dancing dance with change.com website and your book Free Passes and read more about you. So it's been fascinating to get to know you. And I wish you every success and overcome. And to quote another song, if you've still not found what you're looking for Is that that you too? Is that still not haven't found what I'm looking for One day you do find what you're looking for and I. Still haven't found Dr Khutso Madubanya: what I'm looking for. Is that the one? Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. You and I listen to the same music. We do. We had Tina Turner earlier. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. We're not too different in age, so. Yeah, it's probably. Probably about that. Dr Khutso Madubanya: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jo, thank you so much for having me and for indulging me. You can tell I'm very passionate about these topics. Joanne Lockwood: You are. And you were exactly the outlet I needed. Dr Khutso Madubanya: And I so applaud you for what you do. Truly, from the bottom of my heart, I'm very excited to learn you exist and that you offer this. You're invited. Joanne Lockwood: Good. So thank you so much. Thank you. We'll stay in touch. As we bring this conversation to a close. I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. If today's discussion struck a chord, consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community, driving real challenges change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.