--- title: "Embracing Diversity And Inclusion As A Small Business Owner" episode: 2 date: 2020-06-13 guest: "Katie Neeves" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/2-embracing-diversity-amp-inclusion-as-a-small-business audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-002/audio.mp3 --- # Embracing Diversity And Inclusion As A Small Business Owner Katie Neeves joins Joanne Lockwood to talk about coming out publicly as transgender while running an established photography and filmmaking business, and the risks and uncertainties that came with that decision. Katie describes the practical and emotional lead-up to “pressing send” on her announcement to clients, the support she received, and the clients and connections she lost along the way. She and Joanne discuss everyday challenges such as misgendering, voice anxiety, and navigating public spaces, alongside strategies that can reduce pressure in real-world interactions. The conversation also explores how confidence and openness can shape how others respond, and why allyship matters—especially when it shows up in moments where trans people are not present to advocate for themselves. Finally, Katie shares advice for small businesses and employers on creating an inclusive environment, including proactive training and thoughtful steps that make it easier for people to bring their whole selves to work. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Photographer and filmmaker turned trans ambassador. Passionate. - 05:00 — Client pleased with work, overwhelmed by support. - 07:56 — Approaching gender identity openly, forgiving some slip-ups. - 13:25 — Accepted Cross Dresser Realized Trans Identity Fully - 14:46 — Came out earlier than planned, faced awkwardness. - 17:47 — Wedding photography worries: booze, bigots, vulnerability. - 23:41 — Supportive encouragement led to successful wedding photography. - 25:22 — Confidence and respect as transgender photographer. - 30:02 — Avoid coming out unless necessary for context. - 33:09 — Anxious about attention, avoided outing myself. - 37:02 — First-time office anxiety eased by gradual exposure. - 38:06 — Motorway service station experience - uncertainty and queues. - 42:18 — Trans person attends wife's Christmas party. - 45:47 — Smiling breaks barriers, promotes confidence and happiness. - 48:05 — Being out and proud made a difference. - 51:29 — Younger generation more accepting of LGBTQ+ issues. - 55:49 — True ally defended against transphobic remarks. - 59:02 — Thanking Katie for her time and conversation. ## Key takeaways - The significance of recognising and acknowledging privilege and the varied challenges faced by different individuals in society. - Navigating the loss and gain of friends and family members throughout the process of transitioning while maintaining a supportive network. - The role of allies in advocating and standing up for transgender individuals in social and professional settings. - Practical steps for small businesses to create an inclusive atmosphere through dedicated training and awareness. - Handling the anxieties faced by transgender individuals in the workplace, including the use of gender-specific facilities. - Strategies to respectfully address transgender individuals by using appropriate names or neutral pronouns to avoid mistakes. - The importance of positivity and authenticity in overcoming challenges and projecting confidence in both personal and professional contexts. ## FAQs ### How did Katie Neeves navigate her gender transition as a small business owner? Katie faced challenges and positive outcomes when coming out as transgender while running her photography business. She shared her journey in a supportive video, which garnered mostly positive reactions but also led to the loss of some clients. ### How did Katie handle potential impacts on her established photography business after coming out as transgender? Katie experienced a mix of positive and negative reactions within her business and networking circles. She remains open and understanding towards those who unintentionally slip up on gender terminology, while being less tolerant of deliberately hurtful behaviour. ### What tips does Katie Neeves offer for small businesses to be inclusive of transgender individuals? Katie encourages small businesses to create an inclusive atmosphere, provide diversity and inclusion (DNI) training, and be mindful of the needs and sensibilities of a diverse workforce. This involves understanding and accommodating the anxieties and barriers faced by trans people in the workplace. ### What was Joanne Lockwood's experience navigating her transition as a small business owner? Joanne faced challenges such as explaining when to use her old and new names, as well as biases impacting her business, including "bias by proxy." She notably found it difficult to engage with people who supported others with offensive views, leading her to cut off contact with them. ### How can small businesses support transgender individuals during their transitions? Small businesses can provide opportunities for trans individuals to familiarise themselves with workplace facilities to reduce anxiety, and ensure that DNI training includes education on using correct names and pronouns. Creating an inclusive and supportive environment, with understanding and accommodation for individual anxieties, is vital. ### What practical advice do Katie and Joanne offer for dealing with misidentifications or misunderstandings about their gender? Both Katie and Joanne share strategies for addressing misidentifications, such as revealing their trans identity in professional contexts to assert their authenticity. They emphasize the importance of projecting positivity to receive positivity in return, regardless of gender identity. ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I am the host of the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive in. If you want to join me in the future and be a guest, then please do drop me a line to jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. You'll also be able to catch up with all of the shows on itunes, Spotify and all of the users. Plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today's episode is episode two with a title Embracing Diversity and Inclusion. As a small business owner and I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by my friend Katie Neves. I first met Katie at a true inclusion event last summer in London, but we've been online business associates for much longer. Katie is a photographer and she also runs a speaking business and advocacy called Call to be Trans. So earlier, I asked Katie to describe her superpower and she said being able to connect with people, be very honest and to be able to get her passion across, isn't that amazing? So, hello, Katie, how are you? Hello, Joe. Thanks very much for inviting me on Katie Neeves: podcast number two. Joanne Lockwood: Exciting. So, tell us a bit about yourself. What is your business? What do you do? Right, well, Katie Neeves: basically, I've been a photographer and filmmaker for 33 years, but two years ago I came out very publicly as being transgender after living for 48 years as a man. So I now have a new business as a trans ambassador, which runs alongside my photography business. So I help companies with their diversity and inclusion by doing trans awareness training, public speaking and media appearances. But I'm still doing the photography as well, so I've got those two things on the go, but they fulfil both of my passions. So I'm passionate about photography and video and I'm passionate about helping people with their diversity and inclusion, particularly, I think, with trans. I think what I find is that a lot of trans people don't know that it's okay to be trans, and it really is. I don't think so many trans people don't know that. And so I want to try and fucking lead by example and just show people that I'm so much happier as I am now. And life's good. Yeah. So you must have had a Joanne Lockwood: dilemma those two or three years ago about your business, how people would accept you and the world was ready for a Katie like you, or whether you'd find your business falling apart. I mean, how have you found the world to be in the last couple of years? It's been an interesting couple of Katie Neeves: years, I say. Good, though. It's good on the whole, good. I've had some challenges along the way. The first challenge was the name of my photography business was, and still is named after my old male name, which is Martin. So it's called Martin Neves photography and film. Now, I think when I was about to come out, it had been an established brand for 22 years then, and I felt that I didn't want to change the name of the business because I could have changed it to Katie Neves Photography and Film. But then I thought, well, nobody would know who I was, so I thought I had to keep the name of the business the same, otherwise it'd be like starting from scratch. So I thought the only way I could do it was to come out very openly and very honestly as being transgender and continue to do that to this day, which I am. So I thought the only thing to do is just to be very open and honest and be big, bold and out there. What I did, I made a coming out video and I sent that to all my clients and I put it on all my social media and then sat back and worried. I didn't know what the reaction would be. I was absolutely bricking it, joe I'll. Say. Technical term absolutely. I really didn't know because everything was riding on my whole livelihood, my reputation, everything was resting on the reaction to that video. I was so worried. But what it the first social media I put it out on was Facebook. And I remember my finger hovering over the mouse, very nervously, thinking, as soon as I make that click, my life will never be the same again. Anyway, I made the click and then I waited. But then I had a job that I had to go out on and I went out on this job very clearly. Now my mind wasn't on the job at all. I just wanted to get it done as quickly as possible. The client was very happy with the pictures and everything, but I couldn't wait to get back just to see what's happening on Facebook. And I tell you, I needn't have worried because when I got back, I was inundated with literally hundreds of messages of support. It was amazing. I felt so loved, I really did. And it went from being something that was something that I was absolutely dreading, to being one of the most uplifting experiences of my life. It was absolutely incredible. As well as being inundated with messages of support from friends and from clients, I also had a lot of messages from other trans people saying that they'd been struggling with it. But what I'd said had really helped and they thanked me for it, so that really spurred me on. It's been incredible. But say you're asking about the reaction from clients. I have lost some clients through it and I expected that I would, because the problem is that as a photographer, I haven't got any long term contracts. It's all short term stuff. So people phone up on freelance, people phone up, they want a job, doing a quote for it. If they find it acceptable, I do it and that's it, and then it's on to the next one. And so if they've got a problem with it, then they just don't ring me, the phone stops ringing. So I felt very vulnerable, to be honest. I had no laws of discrimination. If you work for a company, you can't be discriminated. Well, you can be, but you get taken to a tribunal, if you do, you're protected. I had no protection at all. So running a small business and coming out as trans, very challenging. Very. So, yeah, I have lost some clients, but in the main, most of them have been very good and supportive, and I've had some that have been really good, and I think some of them actually I might have actually had a little bit of positive discrimination because I think I might have ticked a few boxes for them. And I think, well, actually, I'll take that, because I've lost a few, and I have had a few issues in. So I did quite a bit of business networking and stuff as well. I have run into a few issues with some people there as well. I think that some people just didn't want to hear about my trans stuff, they just wanted to hear about my photography stuff. So, yeah, I have had a few problems like that and you get some people who just they don't want to know about anything, about diversity and they just say, oh, I'm old school. Well, I'm sorry, they need to old school, they do. I've had that said to me, I'm old school. And they say that after they've just misgendered me and I think, oh, come on, get real. But in the main, I think because I've approached it how I have, and I've approached it very head on and been very open. And I said to people, I've cut people quite a lot of slack. The people who have known me as Martin for years, I know that they're going to slip up from time to time and they're going to call me Martin sometimes, or they're going to say he and him. Because I know the people who are supportive and the people who are not. So I know if it's somebody who is supportive and they normally get it right and they just slip up, it's not a big deal at all, I'm not offended in the slightest. And they beat themselves up about I don't beat them up, I just sort of say, no, don't worry about it, they just apologise and move on. But I know they're beating themselves up about it. But I also know the people who aren't supportive and the people that deliberately misgender me and then that's abuse and I won't stand for that. But you know, don't you? You know the people, yeah, I have a very similar outlook on Joanne Lockwood: life that I kind of categorise people into several boxes. One box being, you've known me for 30, 40 years, it's difficult and I know it's difficult and you can't bully people. You have to work with them and educate them and give them time, as you say, cut them some slack. And then there's other people who have only known me as Joe, and that's where I get more frustrated, where people have only known me as me and they're lazy or they don't make the effort or randomly, they just get it wrong. And that's a bit more frustrating, I find. Exactly Katie Neeves: the same, yeah. Because generally, the people, the new friends, the people who have only known me as Katie, tend not to get it wrong. Then when they do, it does hurt, doesn't it? It's confusing. It's Joanne Lockwood: like, Where did that come from? And they go, I don't know, it just came out. Sorry. The previous podcast, episode one, I talked to Dr Linda Shaw about this, about how the brain and heuristics and the biases kick in and reptilian fast brain stuff kicks in and you can't always control it. So, yeah, it's strange. I suppose I get mostly frustrated by service providers. So someone who's working in a shop, a restaurant, airport Cheque in Trains, where people are paid and their role is customer service, that's where I get most frustrated because I would like to think I find often people not either educated or they're just a bit lazy beyond what they should be. So those are the people I tend to get most frustrated with, ordering coffee in Starbucks or Costa or one of the concessions on Waterloo Station. And you get, what do you want, mate? Or you ask her and you think, Come on, really? I've had a long day. Can I just go home without you adding to my burden? Yeah, exactly. Katie Neeves: I did a job recently for a photography job and it was on a building site and the client was actually there. He's a developer and he was there. And it's funny, when he phoned me, he found my website. Of course, it's got Martin Neves Photography all over it, but it's got a bit about me. It's got a picture of me and it says, I'm Katie, and explains all about my transition and things. I'm very open about it. And so he phoned me to get me to, quote, for this job and he subsequently booked me for the job. And then when he was on the phone, he so he hadn't read it all properly. So who's Martin, then? So I said, oh, I used to be called Martin, but I'm in transition. And he said, oh, right, okay. And I assumed just he accepted it fine. I then got the job and I went out on the building site to do this job and all the builders that spoke to him, they were fine. They clearly saw me as the real me and calling me my dear and everything and fine. But then at one point when we were talking as a group and there's some builders there, and then him and me, and then he referred to me as he and him. Where did that come from? So I just corrected him so she. And then after that, he couldn't actually bring himself to say she or her. He was just saying Katie the whole time, so he couldn't get the pronoun. I thought, well, okay, well, that's a win. So I don't know whether that was him just not accepting me as female, but I don't know. But it just seemed a bit odd that he couldn't actually bring himself to say her or she. Yeah. I find some people it's easier to use your name, and I Joanne Lockwood: say this to people when I'm training, that if you're not sure you're not comfortable, just use someone's name all the time because they say that's their name. You can't get it wrong. That is often the best way out. If you're worried about making a slip up, just stick to the name. Yeah. Or even just go for they them. Katie Neeves: Because that covers everyone. You can't get it wrong that way, can you? No, not at all. Well, there's some people do Joanne Lockwood: question the use of a singular. They them. But we all know the challenge with that as well. But yeah, as you said just now, you had this big dilemma. You'd obviously planned it, you were going to do what you had to do, and you picked a date. So how many times, maybe in the last year before that, had you had that go no go situation? Or was this kind of this was the first attempt at doing it, or. Had you backed off before it was Katie Neeves: actually the first attempt at doing it? Yeah, I did it all pretty much to plan. Yeah. It's funny, actually, because I did it, I only admitted to myself that I've had gender dysphoria all my life and previously considered myself as a cross dresser. So that was right up until what was it? October November 2017, when my gender dysphoria just went through the roof? I wasn't expecting it to do it at all, but it just went through the roof. And then I just didn't know what gender I was at all. And then after a whole journey of discovery, then went up to it was January the 11th, 2018. That's when I admitted to myself that I was trans. And then it was then, like, full steam ahead, right. I've missed myself. I need to do something about it. And then I just started planning for it. And because of some of the work that I had in some of the weddings that I was photographing, particularly, that was the main concern. I wanted to start living full time as female from early September. And that's exactly what happened. It was September the second 2018 that I started living full time as female. But what I did do, I came out to everyone earlier. I came out on the 26 April 2018, so I had quite a few months in between and that was really, really awkward. If I had the time again, I wouldn't come out as early. But what I did, I did a straw poll of quite a lot of my trans friends to say, well, look, I'm planning on coming out in September. Sorry, going full time in September. Should I come out earlier because should I come out now or should I wait till a few weeks before? Because the original plan was to come out just a few weeks before and then just go straight into it. And pretty much unanimously they said, no, come out earlier, come out now, sooner rather than later. Give people time to get their heads around it. I thought, okay, so I did so say 26 April. That's when I came out. But people actually got their heads around it a lot quicker than I gave them credit for. And then I found that they started getting impatient with me because what was happening is I was living that double life where people knew that I was trans, I'd come out as trans. They knew my female name was Katie, but business networking and on jobs, I was still presenting as male. So it was a very confusing time, all getting a lot of people some people were calling me Martin, some people were calling me Katie, some people were calling me Matey, and I had a lot of hello you. They didn't know what to call me. It was a very confusing time for them, bless them. I love matey. I think Matey's fantastic, isn't Joanne Lockwood: it? Katie Neeves: I never expected at all I had. A similar experience Joanne Lockwood: because I called it transitioning in chunks. So I basically picked things off that I was doing and sort of transitioned in those roles. And it became the point where I got to a tipping point where most of me was Joe and the rest of me was sort of like just the dreg. Well, actually the dregs was my major employment. Yeah. And I found that personally quite tricky. And also for the people who knew both sides of me, that was also tricky for them. And I kind of had to explain to them, if you can't see me and you can't tell, call me my old name. If you can see me and it looks like if I look like Joe and dress like Joe, then call me Joe. If you can't tell, call me the old name. And that's kind of the way I worked it. But. I think with hindsight, ripping the plaster off and jumping all in as quick as you can for me, with hindsight would have been a better way of doing it. I would have definitely delayed. Katie Neeves: I wouldn't have come out if I did it again, I wouldn't come out as early as April. I think going full time in early September, I would have maybe come out in August. I think that would have been the right time frame. What was the difference in Joanne Lockwood: your life between April and September then? What was that lag? What was the hold off? What that was, was that it was Katie Neeves: the wedding side of my business that I was worried about. The weddings was where I felt most vulnerable, to be honest. Because at weddings you get all sorts of people there, from very young to very old, and in my experience, it tends to be the older people who have trouble getting their heads around this and understanding it, whereas I think younger people generally accept it a lot more readily than older people. So I was really worried about that, and I was worried also at weddings. So as well as you could have bigoted old aunts and uncles as well as that, there's lots of booze, isn't there, at weddings? And not just that it's free booze, so free booze and bigots is not a great recipe. So I just thought, well, that's where I felt my most vulnerable. So I thought, well, I had a load of weddings that were booked up to then and I'd already made a decision, because I don't just do weddings, I do a lot of commercial photography. It was mainly corporate photography and videography and that sort of thing, but the weddings were about a third of my income. I'd already decided I used to do lots of wedding fairs, so nearly every Sunday I was off doing a wedding fair. But wedding fairs are very competitive, there are just so many photographers around and they can book loads of photographers in at these wedding fairs. So even the smallest wedding fair, you'd have four photographers there, and larger ones, you'd have like ten or something, and they're so competitive. And where I am, I'm sort of aimed more at the mid to top end of the market anyway, so already a lot of my market isn't there because a lot of people that go to wedding fairs, they're looking for a bargain, they just want something cheap. They're not in my market anyway, so already I'm limiting myself. But then I just felt really uneasy, particularly mainly because of my voice, because what I didn't want often, you can grab hold of it or you can call people over just to get their attention, because you have to be super confident when you're doing these wedding fairs. And I wasn't confident particularly with my voice. Now my voice hasn't it's lightened a bit from what it was, but it hasn't lightened that much. I know I still sound like a bloke. Now, when people see me in person, that's not too bad. On the phone, I just get misgendered all the time. But I just find that at a wedding fair, I wasn't confident enough to be able to stand there. Because I think if I called someone over, if I grabbed someone, they might hear my voice, but then not see me straight away. And then they'd see me standing there in front of the banner saying, martin needs photography and film. And I just thought, I'm just loading the dice against me, because I thought, well, even though young couples might be okay with me being trans, they probably would be. Most, I think, would be apart from some that may be very religious, they might not, because a lot of those aren't. I just thought they just might think, well, what about our guests? And what guests are we inviting? And we've got a load of elderly ones. If they know that some of them are a bit outspoken or a bit bigoted, they might just feel a bit awkward about booking a trans photographer because they might think, well, is it a problem that we just needn't have? And it just might be easier to book a non transphotographer? Joanne Lockwood: You say that I've experienced that in my life, where the person you're talking to is kind of, I'm okay with you, I haven't got a problem with you, whoever you are, you're fine. But I'm worried about what other people will think. And what they're saying is, I'm worried what other people will think of me if I introduce you. And I'm worried that they're going to be dangerous, and so therefore, I'd rather not take a risk, so I'll go somewhere else. And that's kind of this bias by proxy. You're almost imprinting your biases onto somebody else and assuming the worst. Absolutely, Katie Neeves: yeah. And I think I've had that with my commercial work as well. I've definitely lost some work because of that, definitely. But with the weddings, I just decided to preempt it. And so I just thought, well, I'm just going to take the hit. And so I stopped doing the wedding fest, and consequently, the income from the wedding side of my business has dropped massively. I don't do that many now, so I just do the ones where people are recommended and they know that I can do a good job and I get recommended and they're fine and I just do it. But I did have an interesting one, actually, over the time of my transition, where I photographed the wedding ceremony as Martin and the reception as Katie. I probably ought to expand on that. They weren't on the same day. They were months apart. It was a couple that they actually got married in secret and there were only four people there, including the couple. Well, it was four people plus me and a videographer. So they just got married at a registry office and then I had the two witnesses and then went off just for photo shoot. So that was in April 2018. So that was just a few weeks just before I came out. But then their reception was in late August. It was the late August bank holiday in 2018. So it was those few months I photographed the wedding ceremony and then I came out and the couple were brilliant, they were so supportive of me. They're brilliant, they were sort of following me all the way through, it was great. And although their wedding reception was just before I was going to be living full time as female, because originally I was planning to do that as Martin. Because a whole load that I had lined up that was going to be as Martin. And I was just going to do that and just do that and put it to bed. That's it. But they were so supportive, they really encouraged me and they said, oh, we'd really like you to do it as Katie. And I didn't know whether I'd be able to, and I was I don't know, I was really nervous and I said, I'm going to have to leave it to the last minute to decide whether I can do it or not. But I did it and I'm so glad I did, because they were brilliant and I didn't have any problems at all. And the majority of the sort of style of photography that I do weddings is repertoire, so it's very natural documentary photography, a lot of candid photography, because I think it's so much nicer and it brings out the characters of people. Also, it's less intrusive on the wedding. So that was the majority of it. So the majority of the time, most people didn't hear me speaking loudly anyway, so that wasn't a problem. But the only problem was that they did want a few group shots, which most couples do. Of course, with those, I had to. Project Joanne Lockwood: my voice, of course, put row them in. Yes. There's one Katie Neeves: thing talking in a more feminine voice anyway. There's another thing actually projecting your voice, doing it. It's really hard, you know that? It's hard, isn't it? So I was just so conscious of it, I was so worried. But I'll tell you what, I didn't have a single problem. It was just brilliant and it was a lovely wedding and I'm so glad I did it. And it was a real confidence booster. Joanne Lockwood: So this was two years ago and all these anxieties, all these apprehensions, so the voice was a big deal, we were going to say. So looking back to two year old self, what advice would you give yourself? I mean, what have you learned over those two years? Katie Neeves: I think I'd tell myself to not worry so much because actually, I remember first time apart from that wedding, but the first time I went out on a commercial job and started living full time as Katie and just going out on a job in a dress, I was what? What people going to say? Well, without exception, people have just treated me with the utmost respect and as the professional that I am and that I'm there as a photographer and I know I can do a good job. I'm confident with what I do. I think the more I've done it, the more confident I've got. And I just go in there and I don't even think about it now, this is me. This is the real me. I just go in and do my stuff. And I think a lot of it is what you portray, what you project comes back at you. If you go in there all nervous with your head down or looking over your shoulder, I've got any funny looks and what people saying, then you make yourself a victim and you attract that sort of thing. But because now I'm just really confident and don't even think about it, that comes back to me. It's great. Yeah, I completely agree. And that's Joanne Lockwood: kind of what I learned over the last few years as well, that if you go into the world with a smile, the world smiles back. If you go into frown, the world frowns back. So, yeah, treat people as you want to be treated, sort of thing. And in a way where open your heart, open your arms to people and they embrace you. And I think that's not just trans people, but all people. If you go in with a person, not less of a dick because they're trans, if you like being trans doesn't make you less of a dick. If you're a dick, you're a dick. And I think if you approach the world with anger and aggression, then you get it back. So I'm with you on that. So you've kind of not bothered so much about your voice. I mean, you could tell I decided not to bother because it's kind of my voice. I kind of like it, so why worry about it? Yeah, I have Katie Neeves: done some work with it, but I haven't done as much as perhaps I should do. And I think it's the same sort of thing. Like you you've got a business, public speaking. When you're doing a lot of speaking, you're thinking about what you're saying rather than and that is more important. And I think I've got to the point where thinking, well, actually, this whole journey is about authenticity and this is my authentic voice. I'm not putting on an act for anybody. But having said that, I know that if I do put more of an effort in, then it'll just make my life easier in certain circumstances. So I do want to still do a bit more work with. And if I just take my voice back to how it used to be, I'll try and do it. Hang on. Okay, it's down there. That was how I used to speak. So that was my normal voice as Martin. So I was talking very much from my chest just down there, whereas I'm talking much more now from my head. So it's subtle, but. It's gone up a bit. Still got some more work to do with it. I know, but that's where I am at the moment. But I think it's better to do it as a gradual thing. I think I tried. I had a bit of voice coaching to begin with and then didn't do as much work with it as perhaps I should do. And I sort of settled at this for the time being, but I think if I can gradually just eke it up a little bit, then I think that'll help. And I think the gradual thing is. I struggle with is coughing Joanne Lockwood: or sneezing. It's hard to disguise a cough or a sneeze, isn't it? Laughing as well because laughing is just a natural Katie Neeves: thing it's really hard, isn't it? Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I've stopped worrying about the phone. If someone misgenders me on the phone, I pick my moment. Sometimes I'll say I'll correct them. Sometimes I think if I'm friending a garage to have my MOT booked in, they call me geese or mate or something. I think I can't be bothered with this. It doesn't matter, it's not important, just whatever. I'll see you tomorrow. You can pick the car up, then I arrive, give them the keys and pick it up. So certain battles that are just not worth playing with. Whatever. And it's funny, the Katie Neeves: times that I try more when I'm just picking the phone up and I don't know who's calling. So that's when I'll try, I'll start off with a Hi, Katie. Knees. Hello. And I'm up there a bit more. And then when I hear who it is, if it's somebody who knows me, then I relax a bit more, a couple of octaves. Hello. Right down Joanne Lockwood: there resonance going in the chest. Katie Neeves: So I try more that if I'm in a shop or somewhere where I'm not going to be coming out to them and telling them that I'm trans and I've got no intention of doing that, it's a short conversation, then I'll try more then, actually. Whereas most of the time, say like if I'm out networking or whatever, or if I'm doing presentation, most of the time people know that I'm trans because I'm there talking about it. I'm doing a trans awareness training workshop or whatever, so I know that I'm doing that. Or if I'm promoting cool to be trans, I have to come out in the process of telling them about the business. Joanne Lockwood: Kind of secret about it doesn't work, does it? It's part of the authenticity of what you're doing, isn't it? It is and I find that Katie Neeves: once I've told them that takes the pressure off me with my voice and it's a bit of a cop out it's a bit of a cop out really, isn't it? But it works. Yeah, similar. Joanne Lockwood: I do a lot of big stage speaking around trans inclusion and diversity. So I remember being in I was in Berlin on a stage there. There's six or 700 people in the audience and I deliberately hold back for a few seconds before I start talking, just so that the audience look at me. They get a visual identity of who I am and then I speak. And I actually had people come in, anyone's come up to me afterwards going, wow, that completely blew my mind. Where did that voice come from? Sort of thing. But it's a great attention grabber. It's a great way of bringing people into the room, get their focus, so I suppose I tend to use it to my advantage and not be ashamed of it. Katie Neeves: Yeah. Oh, I'm certainly not ashamed of it at all. I get where you're coming from. The funniest time I remember was Joanne Lockwood: I was on a train coming back from Waterloo to Portsmouth and the old buffet trolley. They push the trolleys down the corridor, don't they? And normally they go 100 miles. Now you have to almost, like, shout at the buffet guy, Come back here. I wanted one, but this guy was kind of looking either side and I said, yeah, black coffee, please, in a very resonating voice. And the whole carriage sort of like, went, Wolf, where did you come from? It's like this big reveal, because I just sat there minding my own business, everyone's mind their own business with their phones and then kind of this big sort of like and what. Katie Neeves: And then you start singing I Am What I Am, and there's this chap. Sat next to me. If you sat there for like, 20 minutes, half Joanne Lockwood: an hour, he sat next to me and as soon as I spoke, he looked at me with horror. And then as soon as the trolley went past, he literally grabbed on his bag and ran down the corridor. Looking over his shoulder, I could see him at the end of the seat, looking over, staring at me. It's like, oh, I obviously had a bigger effect on him. You've been known to clear Katie Neeves: railway carriages. Fantastic. Joanne Lockwood: I don't play with it, I don't do it. But, yeah, I've lost my anxiety about saying, Excuse me, can I have a coffee, please? Katie Neeves: I still do have a bit of anxiety over that, because I find that especially when you want to project yourself like that, I do find you want to grab people's attention. By doing that, you're outing people. So, for instance, I did a wedding a little while ago and just before doing the group shots, I was finding once, organising people, but actually getting the attention of the room. At Martin, I always used to sort of say, Ladies and gentlemen and in a big, deep voice, and it would cut through. But I just didn't want to do it this time because I thought, if I do that, that's just going to out me to everyone there and then. What I didn't want was to hear a great intake of breath from all the guests I'd be mortified by that. So I really didn't want that. So I just got the best man just to get their attention and then just to direct people to where I was. But once then once I was there, then I was talking to them and directing them. But then that didn't seem too bad then, because I was just telling people and then they just realised in their own time that I was trans. But that wasn't so bad. But what I didn't want was for me just to make that big announcement. So I do still have a bit of that worry there. Is it getting less? Is it an Joanne Lockwood: anxiety you can manage? Or we talk about bring our whole self to work, so you're still not quite being able to bring your whole self? Or are you bringing the bit of yourself you want to bring and leaving the bit you don't want to bring. At home is that I Katie Neeves: am bringing my whole stuff there. I think it's purely over, that bit, just getting people's attention initially that I didn't in that situation, it's okay. It wouldn't be a problem if people were there and they knew they were there to be photographed, but just in that situation, I just didn't want to be making that big announcement. That was the only thing that I didn't want to do. Because it's different if it's a trans awareness training thing, because they all know that I'm trans anyway. But it was just in that particular situation, I didn't want to get their attention, but once their attention had begot, then I talked to them. No problem at all. A takeaway for some of the people listening to this podcast Joanne Lockwood: is that if they have trans people in their workplace or they have no people who are going to transition, they need to be kind of conscious of the anxieties that may be gone in that person's head and some of the barriers they face on a daily basis and how you as an organisation can maybe make that life easier through those. Absolutely. Absolutely. And there Katie Neeves: are so many, aren't there? Just going to work in a dress for the first time. It's hard. Joanne Lockwood: I was consulting with a big global multinational based in Paris and they called me in to help advise them on a person at work who wanted to transition. And this person had some major anxieties and they built it up into a point where they believed the world was going to discriminate against them regardless of any evidence. But the company was absolutely super supportive. But this person was convinced the security guards were laughing at them behind their back. The people in the canteen were laughing at them. And I wouldn't quite say it's paranoia, but there was a level of projecting what they were expecting onto people. But one of their big anxieties was the toilets. I don't think any trans person exists that hasn't had a toilet conversation with somebody, or at least been part of the debate. But one of the big challenges they had was they'd never been into this. Katie Neeves: Particular lady's toilet, right? So their major anxiety Joanne Lockwood: was walking through that door for the first time, and you don't know what's on the other side of the door. You don't know what maybe the protocols are, what it looks like, where the hand soap is, where the towels are, how the cubicles lock. So if you're trying to just get in, get out, get with your business, that initial bit of anxiety about the protocol and just what's in there can be a bit of a shock. I just said to the HR manager there, well, why don't you allow or invite this person to maybe after hours, use the toilets, feel comfortable, and then you wait outside and just say, just experience that environment in your own time. And then when they come to use them the next day, the anxiety is gone, and maybe again, out of hours, allow them to walk into the building, allow them to walk into the lift. Allow them to feel that relaxation. So when they do, it live with people around, it's not brand new experience. And these are a couple of things I often say to companies, is by going that extra little bit of mile, which you don't even think about as an issue, can really change someone's lives, but just by giving them that space to be themselves. So I remember, I don't know if you've had this experience, but motorway service stations, the first time I think I went to a motorway service station, you walk in there, everyone's just kind of milling around, aren't they? You're either doing something or you're sat there waiting for someone who's doing something, and there's a whole load of people just milling around in the sort of area between Costa and KFC and all that bit. And then the toilets are right dead opposite you, aren't they? And you walk into the toilets. It's like a chicane. You go in and you turn right, and then you're into this unknown space, and you've got absolutely no idea what's going to be around the corner. It's like so voyager discovery. You get in there, and there's this queue of women, and you think, blow. What's the protocol? Do I get on the end of the queue? Do I nip around the corner so I could find an empty cubicle? How do I play this game? It's like you're standing there trying to think, really nervous, and it's your turn. Okay. Where do I go? Do I run a quick cubicle lock? Made it safe? Right, now I got to come out again, right? Okay. Someone says something as I'm coming out. Wash your hands. Katie Neeves: Don't look in the mirror. Destroy your hand. Joanne Lockwood: Survived. I always described the motorway service session toilets as my worst anxiety nightmare, really, because it was just such an unknown, unpredictable, you've no idea what's behind that door. Experience. And I just had it in my head that this was going to be a flashpoint, because you're standing around waiting for the toilet with a whole load of people, women who end up chatting to each other or looking at each other. We say, Hurry up. The kind of conversation you have in the toilets. Yeah. And then my voice, I think, I don't have a conversation in here with my voice. My other nightmare is walking to the toilets with a female colleague and she just wants to keep on talking. Since men walk into a toilet, no one says a word. Are they actually silent? So we just get in there, do our biz, we didn't wash our hands, we just walk straight out. Done. Absolutely. You're chatting in and out, you have adjacent cubicles, you're talking through the door. I just find it really uncomfortable with my voice having a conversation in a women's toilet behind a locked door. I Katie Neeves: do. I find it exactly the same. And it's a real eye opener, that. Yeah, because they say men don't talk to each other in the loose, but women do all the time. Because it's one thing when they can see you, it's not a problem, but when they can't see you, it's just like being on the phone, isn't it? My daughter still calls me Daddy because I'm proud to be her dad and I always will be her dad. But the only time I ban her from calling me dad or Daddy is in the ladies lose. And we had an incident one time when I was in a cubicle and she was just standing outside the door and she said, I was doing business and I heard this. There's a couple of women in cubicles either side of me. And I heard this little voice from outside the door saying, Daddy. Then there was a pause. Oh, Katie. I thought, oh, God, it's too late now, isn't it? But then it got worse. Then she, um so I said, yes, darling. She said, So, Daddy, so are you going to start having your periods now, then? Don't do this to me. So I just said in my highest voice I could, no, darling. And then there was a pause and then it's so why is that, then? I'll talk to you about it later, darling. Just don't do this to me. Oh, God. The ground to open up and just swallow me up. But I couldn't get out of those loose quick enough. I can imagine that's. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. One of the problems I faced recently is my wife's office Christmas party. Okay. I've been out and about transition for three and a bit years now. The world's known for nearly three and a half years. And I've never made my wife's Christmas party before, because in the early stages, she didn't know how to approach the subject. She didn't know how to tell her colleagues that oh, by the way, my husband's trans. And in case it reflected badly on her, she's got her own anxieties about how she's going to be. So the first year she took my daughter, the second year she took a friend, and this past Christmas she took me. And only a few of her colleagues knew the full story that she didn't know that well from different offices, there were field service companies, there are people coming from all over the country there. And she started introducing me as her other half. And I sort of like, nudged her and joked with her and said, well, going back 20 years, if I'd have introduced you as my other half, how would you have felt? And she went, So you're Katie Neeves: not proud. That I'm your husband? She said, Well, Joanne Lockwood: I don't really think it's easy to introduce you as my husband when you're wearing a dress. I said, that's a fair point. Just such a gendered Katie Neeves: term, isn't it? We kind of agreed that other Joanne Lockwood: half was better than partner, because partner implied some other relationship, so we decided to stick with other half. But it's very interesting just to watch her coming out, if you like, to people and me having conversations with their work colleagues. And I remember chatting with one lady around the table. You sit around the table eating your turkey and stuff, and three quarters of the way through the conversation, I said something about what I do, trans awareness workshops and all this sort of thing. She went, Are Katie Neeves: you trans? I went, oh, yeah, Joanne Lockwood: thank you for not noticing. Yeah, it's great when that happens, isn't Katie Neeves: it? Joanne Lockwood: I suppose I have quite a limiting belief about my voice, so I kind of just assume that people suss it with my voice. I assume Katie Neeves: exactly the same, Joe. Yeah, I had that the other day. I was at a networking thing and I was talking to this woman, talking for about ten minutes to begin with, and mainly talking about the stuff that she was doing to begin with. And then she said, Also, what do you do? So then I just said two things I'm a photographer and filmmaker, and I'm also a trans ambassador because I'm transgender. And then she had to look on her face, she looked so shocked. And then she just said, oh, I've got to give you a hug. And she gave me this big hug and then spilt all her coffee everywhere. It's nice when that happens, isn't it? Let's Joanne Lockwood: give our listeners something to more stuff to take away here. So earlier you mentioned about you're meeting members of the public weddings you've got there may be less educated or the less open minded people in a party. You've got people maybe from different generations who have different lived experience that maybe don't understand. Most often, people aren't being deliberately nasty, they just lack awareness. What are your superpowers is to approach the world and give people your passion and smile and educate? How do you tackle those situations where you perceive that there's a confusion? So what advice would you give people? How to approach you or how would you approach people? I think smiling Katie Neeves: is a huge thing. I think it goes such a long way because it just breaks down barriers and it shows people that you're confident and you're happy in yourself. And I think it's such a big thing. There's a lot of trans activists about that, a lot of them very angry and they're fighting a good cause, but I think a lot of the time they end up damaging the cause because they turn people off it. Whereas I think if you can actually just bring them along and acknowledge that they're struggling to get their heads around it, but then help them with it and actually just show, well, I'm not somebody to be afraid of, I'm not somebody to be pitted. Be happy for me, because I'm happy. I'm happy in my own skin. I'm happier now than I've ever been. There's lots of struggles going on and, yeah, we know that it's not an easy journey, being trans by any means, but in myself, because I'm living my truth, it feels amazing, absolutely amazing. I've lost count of the number of people who've told me, I look so much happier now than I did before. And I'm not surprised because I feel happy. I think that's the main thing, because if you can just smile and be happy, that just breaks down those barriers and I think you can bring people with you. Definitely, yeah. But I recognise that Joanne Lockwood: it's quite a privilege. I am privileged. The fact that I can smile, I can be happy. My lived experience is very positive. But we all know that not everybody has the same reason to be happy for no better way. Maybe they're really struggling with their income, really struggling with their work. Maybe they're getting bullied, maybe they've been put into a point where they no longer have faith in society. So we've had a very positive experience and we shouldn't undermine or minimalize the experience had by others, which is sometimes where absolutely their frustration overflows because of the microaggressions, the drip, drip, drip every time they go out and the environment they're in. And I think that is a struggle that a lot of people have and we're lucky not to have that, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Katie Neeves: And I think because of the sort of work that we're both doing and that we're both very much out, I mean, neither of us could be more out if we tried, let's face it, could. We really putting it on a massive great big billboard. So I think we're very lucky in the fact, because we've approached it like that, I think it's come back at us. So it sort of solved any problem. I think a lot of people are much more shy and they do have a tough time with it. And I think a lot of it is that they put so much pressure on themselves with it, whereas they needn't do. But I think it's just getting across to them that it really is okay to be trans and that the world will accept them as being trans. Not everybody. Some people won't. I've lost friends, some friends through it, and I've lost some family through it as well. Quite a lot of family through it, but still, the majority of people are absolutely fine with it. And I think that's one of the things that was the one big worry, is I just didn't know whether people would be okay with it. But certainly in the main, I found most people are, and it's just a case of just trying to sort of get that into your head, that, yeah, most people are going to be okay with it, or the ones that aren't. They just disappear from your life. Often you don't see them. Yeah, well, I think that's it situations like this, when you learn who your true friends are, it's a very effective way of finding it's quite an extreme way of finding out who your friends are, but it's very effective. Certainly some people who I previously thought were friends turned out not to be, but then others who I didn't realise they were such good friends and actually been really supportive, they've been fantastic and think, wow. And they've actually become better friends. So as well as those, I've also gained a whole load of new friends who I wouldn't have met had I not been transitioned. My world has just opened up so much, it's been incredible, actually. You're one of them. I've got thousands of new friends Joanne Lockwood: I never had three years ago, and I travel around the world, I meet new people every time. Every time I go and speak at a conference, I'm generally meeting 200, 300 new people for the first time. Every time. I'm constantly outing myself, if you like, or being open about who I am. One thing you said there about my mind's gone blank. What was I thinking about? What we're talking about? We're talking about constantly Katie Neeves: outing yourself. Joanne Lockwood: My mind's frazzled. The other thing I was going to talk to you about is people often say to me, is it the older generation or is it the younger generation? In my experience, it doesn't matter whether you're old, young, middle aged or whatever age you are. It's not about your age often, it's about your socialisation your social groups, the people you hang around with. And I couldn't say there's more older people struggle or more younger people struggle. It's kind of like this cross section of who you are rather than your age. Katie Neeves: Yeah, I think there are some sections of society who do struggle with it more, though. I think certainly generally I found that the younger generation tend to be much more accepting. I think generally they tend to be because I think the older generation, if you look about it, I'm 50 now, and so when I was growing up as a child in the 70s, if someone was gay, that was a scandal, that was a huge scandal. No one ever spoke about trans issues then. So if you think you take it back a generation, so people even old on that, you can see why they would struggle with it. It's just been in their culture and their education, the way they've been brought up, and older people generally find change more difficult than younger people anyway, so you can understand why older people would find but then I know quite a lot of older people who are absolutely fine with it. So you can't generalise. No, Joanne Lockwood: you can't. I have found Katie Neeves: that. And also, I think religion, I think, is a big one. I think people who are very strongly religious I mean, I lost my sister through it. My sister's a very evangelical born again Christian and she just doesn't want to know me, and my mom's still struggling with it as well, and I think a lot of that is religious reasons as well. Joanne Lockwood: See, I wouldn't even go as far as to say it's about religion. Some of my great friends are they would class themselves as devout Christians. I've got some great friends who would class themselves as devout Muslim and people of the Jewish faith, devout agnostic, Satanists and spaghetti. Monstrous. I've got people in my network of my friends who I would class as being of all religions, and they're almost ashamed of the dogma sometimes from their religion, that they're embarrassed to be part of that religion even though they're loyal and faithful to it. I don't think we can ever say it's all people or religions to blame. Oh, no, it's not. I think it's Katie Neeves: people using their religion. They're blaming their bigotry on their religion. I think that's what it is, that they're using the religion as a tool. Joanne Lockwood: Hiding behind it, weaponizing it. They're Katie Neeves: bigots, they're bigger and they're prejudiced and that's it. But the reason they're giving for being how they are and having the beliefs they are is the religion. It's funny because I know people who are born again Christians the same as my sister, and yet they're absolutely fine, they're absolutely fine with me and they got no problem at all. But there you go. I remember what I was going to say to you just Joanne Lockwood: now, it's coming. Back in my head. So it's interesting when you said about some people don't accept. And what I found is I've had a very large group of friends around the country, but mainly in a clique in a group. And a couple of the people in that group made it very they were very vocal about what they thought. Mainly they thought it's funny, humorous, disrespectful, all of those sort of things. What surprised me was the people who were my closest friends in that group, I thought they understood what being an ally meant. But to me, it's very difficult to be friends with someone who's friends with someone who treats you in that way. And I almost wanted my friends to advocate for me and say, actually, you shouldn't say that about Joe. We've got to sort this out. Where does the circle of trust lie? And what I found out is easier to be outside of the circle of trust in my own circle of trust than knowing that I'm talking to people who are able to harbour somebody with those views. And so I cut myself off for a lot of people in that circle. I cut them off and I didn't keep in contact with them because I know that they were supporting the person who had those nasty views. And I found that very difficult to deal with. Yeah. And I think that Katie Neeves: is what an ally and what a true ally does is stick up for it when they hear that. I went to a black tie reception just before Christmas and I was fairly well known in the group there, but there's a chap that was there who was talking to another man and this first one pointed me out and said, oh, you know who that is? See that woman over there? She used to be Martin Neves. I don't get it at all. And there's been quite disparaging about me, but she was actually talking to somebody who is a real trans ally and he watched quite a lot of my Vlogs and everything and the stuff that I've been putting out on social media. And so that has educated him. And he said, well, actually, there's a lot more to it than you're just thinking now. And he just then explained to him to this other guy, and I thought it was brilliant. And I didn't know this conversation was going on at all. It was only after the event that he actually told me that what had happened and I thought, wow, good on him. That is what a true ally does. It really is. It's not just about being friends with that person, it is about sticking up for them when they can't stick up for themselves completely. So Joanne Lockwood: I think we're yakking on for an hour now. We've had a great conversation. Is there anything you'd like to sort of kind of summarise up? Any top tips for engaging small businesses? Or not necessarily in trans specifically, but top tip as a small business owner, what you've learned in terms of D&I? Yeah, Katie Neeves: I think in terms of top tips for other businesses, I think be very aware of people who are different to everybody else, whether it's trans or race or whatever or disability. I think just be very aware of their sensibilities. And also with something like someone coming out as being trans, you may already have someone who's trans in. Your workforce, but you just don't know it. And they just haven't come out yet. And the reason they haven't come out may be because you haven't got a very inclusive atmosphere within the workforce, and so you're making it that much harder for them. And so if you think of yourself as a good employer, then it's much better to actually get some training, some D&I training in, just to create a better atmosphere, just to make it easier, so that if someone does feel the urge to come out. It just makes it so much easier for them. And then it allows them to bring their whole self to work. And you all get a much better worker out of them because they'll be so much more effective, and they'll be happier, and they're more likely to stay with you. And you won't have to spend money on recruiting new people. So that's my top tips for employers. Joanne Lockwood: Fantastic. There's a really great bit of advice and I'm sure there's things that everyone could do to be more open and be more accepting of people and not wanting to pass judgement. Katie Neeves: Yeah. Thank you, Katie. Thank you for giving up some Joanne Lockwood: of your afternoon. Thank you for this really great little chat we've had. I've really enjoyed the conversation. I've learned things about you today that, even though I know you quite well, we've talked about things that I didn't know about you before. And to our listeners, well, thank you for listening. Please do subscribe and click on the link below. You can keep updated with future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's Bites B-I-T-E-S-I have a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you will be inspired by over the next few weeks and months. And remember, if you'd like to be a guest, then please do let me know. So my name is Joanne Lockwood. So jo.Lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. I welcome your feedback and suggestions and.