---
title: "Beyond Sight"
episode: 197
date: 2026-02-19
guest: "Hannah Cohen"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/197-beyond-sight
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-197/audio.mp3
---

# Beyond Sight

Hannah Cohen joins Joanne Lockwood to unpack what it means to navigate life with a visual impairment that many people don’t immediately see. Hannah shares how her sight loss developed, what “blindness as a spectrum” looks like in practice, and the constant recalibration involved in work, travel, shopping, and social situations when the world assumes you can see what everyone else sees. Drawing on her background as a solicitor and her current work as an inclusion coach, Hannah describes the practical barriers that show up in workplaces and everyday systems: inaccessible software, interfaces that don’t work with screen readers, missing descriptions and alt text, and environments that require people to self-advocate repeatedly just to participate fully. Joanne and Hannah explore the tension many people with hidden disabilities experience—wanting independence and not wanting to be patronised, while still needing timely, respectful support. The conversation also widens to conscious inclusion more broadly, including examples from transport and public services, and reflections on how leaders and colleagues can respond better by asking straightforward, supportive questions like “What do you need to do your job?” The episode closes with a reminder that inclusion isn’t about minimum standards—it’s about creating day-to-day conditions where people are genuinely supported, understood, and able to thrive.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Inclusion Bites: Bold Conversations
- 03:21 — From Solicitor to Inclusion Coach
- 07:13 — Registered Blind but Can See
- 10:17 — Invisible Struggles of Disability
- 13:01 — Struggling with Independence Balance
- 16:33 — Resilience Through Loss and Parenthood
- 19:36 — Walking Anxieties and Joys
- 25:23 — Hidden Disabilities Awareness Workshops
- 27:00 — Hidden Disabilities and Support
- 31:47 — Supportive Environment, Personal Independence
- 35:34 — Navigating Disability Challenges Together
- 37:22 — Train Delay and Complaint Saga
- 41:39 — Accessibility Challenges with Screen Readers
- 44:08 — Navigating Menus Without Sight
- 47:26 — Unexpected Food Experiences
- 50:30 — Disability Support Threshold Issues
- 56:38 — Inclusion Amplified: Join Us
- 57:29 — Fostering Inclusivity, Bite by Bite

## Key takeaways

- The real-world spectrum of visual impairment and how public understanding often fails to capture its complexity.
- The invisible nature of hidden disabilities and how self-advocacy is essential but exhausting.
- Technical barriers faced in professional environments and accessing digital tools, with practical examples of adaptive strategies.
- The impact on family dynamics and independence, especially when unseen support needs arise.
- Approaches for businesses and leaders to cultivate consciously inclusive cultures, including asking the right questions and providing meaningful support.
- Identifying accessibility gaps in public spaces, technology, and consumer interactions, and the importance of descriptive communication.
- The critical role of societal design and policy in preventing exclusion and ensuring everyone’s needs are met, regardless of diagnosis or visible impairment.

## FAQs

### What is the focus of the 'Beyond Sight' episode of Inclusion Bites Podcast?

The episode centres on the lived experience of visual impairment, the spectrum of blindness, and the wider conversation around hidden disabilities. It explores challenges faced by people with sight loss both personally and professionally, and advocates for conscious inclusion within teams, leadership, and broader society.

### Who are the speakers and what are their backgrounds?

The host, Joanne Lockwood, leads the podcast, while the guest, Hannah Cohen, is a visually impaired inclusion coach. Hannah Cohen shares her journey from being a practising solicitor to pivoting into inclusion coaching following her loss of sight, highlighting the importance of authenticity and practical inclusion work.

### How does visual impairment affect daily living and independence?

Hannah Cohen discussed the impact on routine activities, from navigating public spaces and shops to cooking and travelling. She emphasises the need to adapt—such as using tech for reading and the importance of self-advocacy—while underscoring the mixed feelings of losing certain abilities, especially driving and spontaneous independence.

### What is meant by 'hidden disabilities'?

Hidden disabilities are conditions not immediately obvious to others, including visual and hearing impairments, neurodiversity, and some medical and mental health conditions. The episode explores how hidden disabilities create barriers to inclusion and are often misunderstood, requiring ongoing advocacy from those affected.

### How can organisations and leaders foster greater inclusion for people with hidden disabilities?

Practical inclusion requires conscious awareness. Joanne Lockwood and Hannah Cohen encourage leaders and colleagues to simply ask, “How can I help?” rather than assuming needs. Creating open conversations and providing flexibility in support or accommodations are vital. The episode also highlights challenges with workplace accessibility, especially regarding technology, software, and support systems.

### Are tech tools and accessibility services helpful?

Modern tech, such as screen readers and accessibility features, are essential for visually impaired users but not universally effective. Hannah Cohen notes that many websites and apps, including navigation tools, often lack suitable accessibility—especially poor alt text and unintuitive interfaces—limiting independence. She advocates for improvements in digital accessibility and clear visual descriptions.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Foreign.

Hannah Cohen: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 197 with the title Beyond Sight. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Hannah Cohen. Hannah is a visually impaired inclusion coach who empowers teams, leaders and individuals to understand and support hidden disabilities through workshops and one to one coaching. When I asked Hannah to describe a superpower, she said that it is turning Live Challenge into practical inclusion. Hello, Hannah, welcome to the show.

Joanne Lockwood: Hi, Jo, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, no, it's absolutely

Hannah Cohen: superb. I can almost hear you. Are you around the corner? Maybe you're not. Where are you based in the country?

Joanne Lockwood: Manchester. Manchester? Well, I'm in Portsmouth, so probably just

Hannah Cohen: a bit out of. Bit out of hearing range. So you don't sound very Mancunian. The outskirts. Posh bit. Posh bit. Possibly, Possibly, possibly. You couldn't say. You couldn't. And I understand we're also joined by Manny. Yes, Manny the Cavapouson is around

Joanne Lockwood: and. About, so we may have an interlude with a bit of yelping and

Hannah Cohen: a bit of earlier I heard the collar flicking and the ears flapping on the mic. So if we are joined by Manny, we'll welcome him most sincerely because news, everybody. Special news. I bought myself or ourselves a cavapoo at the weekend, so we're newly dogged up. So our dog is in the other room with my wife at the moment. So, yeah, we're well into the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Poodle crossbreeds. Yeah. And if Manny barks, maybe she'll.

Joanne Lockwood: He'll set Amber off. She may. Well, she may well join in. Yeah. In which

Hannah Cohen: case I look forward to her being a key part of future episodes. It'll be the Joe and Amber show in future over. She'll bring the cuteness, I'll just bring the practicalities. So, Anna, you just. As in the intro there, we talked about you were visually impaired inclusion coach, and the authenticity in that is you are visually impaired yourself. Do you. Do you want to just explain who you are, your storey and your background? Yeah, definitely. Thank you. So I became visually

Joanne Lockwood: impaired around four and a half to five years ago. I'm actually a solicitor and a trained solicitor and since my site has changed, it's been very hard to do my job and I ended up training to become a coach. I wasn't really sure if it would be a career or not, but I thought I'd do some training to keep myself more busy and yeah, I just sort of fell in love with it. And when I started trying to think how I could sort of niche into what direction inclusion coaching just felt really perfect and that I could help people who are. Had similar challenges to me and helped them navigate their way. Whether it's one to one, people who are struggling maybe with a new diagnosis or just struggling with, you know, life, which is tough, or may or. And then going into teams and companies, helping them work out how to best work with each other and work with their own, with their clients and then also leaders, how to work with their employees. So, yeah, it works with everyone, really. That's incredible.

Hannah Cohen: Even with the prevalence now of computing, tablets, text to speech, all these kind of tools and AI, it's still quite difficult. I guess as a solicitor, there's lots of paper, lots of processes to follow, different websites, different. Is that part of the challenge you faced? Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: it's. It's really tough. I mean, I've spoken to loads of different solicitors in different types of law and asked, you know, to try and see how different people do it. It is possible to do it. A lot of people have support workers and, you know, the software and my. I work in a very small firm, the software isn't very accessible and, you know, some of the big firms, they have a lot of extra. Well, as well as the money, they've got more staff, more software, different options. Different tools and stuff. Yeah. And I've used access to work. They've been relatively helpful at times, but it's really tricky. It's really tricky and it's a different way to work. I've got to listen to documents all day in my ear. It's not. So, yeah, it's hard to focus on things like that. You know, you're used to sort of scanning Documents with your eyes and you take the important things and now can't do that. And it's a whole new way of learning. And yeah, it's, I'm not sort of enjoying that. So I am actually still working part time as a solicitor. But yeah, I'm really hoping my inclusion work takes off and it's, you know, I'm loving it, really enjoying it. Yeah. I actually listened to an audio book

Hannah Cohen: in the car yesterday about puppies actually. So my wife is a book reader. I'm not a book reader. So I bought my wife the book and I bought myself the audio audible version. I, I, I knew cause I was picking a puppy up and it was three hours each way, so I knew I had three hours and the book was four and a half hours. So I started listening to it. I know exactly what you mean. The bits I would skim through and even the audiobook sort of said, I'm going to give you the 10 points to consider in a minute. And you had to wait. I couldn't just flick ahead and recap or. So I guess you're faced with. Everything is very sequential now. It's hard to get a random access of the, of the info or data you need. You can't flick in back and forwards.

Joanne Lockwood: No, definitely. And I do actually listen to a lot of books, but there are some that are, I think, especially in learning. So personal development books or educational books, they are meant for, you know, going into specific chapters and yeah, it's not easy to do that. So yeah, look, it's just a new way of learning, but it is, can be a bit tricky. So

Hannah Cohen: you describe yourself as visually impaired. To what extent has your sight failed? So

Joanne Lockwood: I'm actually registered blind, but I feel like if I say that I'm blind, people don't really understand because I can see. And there is a real spectrum of blindness. I can see, I can sort of see on the screen. But you're blurry, so I don't really see detail. I can't see words. So I use a lot of tech to read stuff to me on my computer boards, on my phone. And when I'm out and about, I use my phone to read things. So luckily I can get out and about sort of. I can see the contrast between the pavement and the road almost 100% of the time. So, you know, I'm lucky about that. But blindness really is a spectrum and people think people who are blind see nothing. But you know, you never really know, you know, unless you ask. I'm very happy to Be asked, but everyone's different. There are people who've had

Hannah Cohen: their optic nerve fail or parts of their brain fail. Maybe that's. I guess that's when they get almost like the complete blindness, isn't it?

Joanne Lockwood: Just. I'm not sure whether they see black or white or nothing

Hannah Cohen: or. Well, my optic nerves have actually failed. Oh, they.

Joanne Lockwood: Okay, yeah, that's part of my condition and, I mean, I don't know about loads of other conditions. I don't really, you know, know everything, but I know that my optic nerves. I think they said they're dead, but, you know, I can see stuff, so I don't really know how it works, to be honest. So you'd lived a good chunk of your

Hannah Cohen: life, and I don't want to give your age away. So you're aware of the world around you, you've got context to what you can see. So if you'd have been born this way or acquired this at a very early age, you'd have less context or at least you know, what the sky looks like, the grass looks like. So when you. Yeah, whatever vision you have left, you can still contextualise it and get. Get some joy from that, from that image, I guess. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel so lucky that I still have

Joanne Lockwood: enough sight to enjoy, you know, seeing things. I mean, it. Look, it's completely different, but I can still. I love going to the beach and I still love going to the beach and you see it, but it's more the feeling and the noise, you know, all the senses, really. Yeah, I. But I do feel lucky that I still have enough sight to do a lot of things. Can you recognise

Hannah Cohen: people that you know still? Yes and no. I recognise

Joanne Lockwood: mostly the people I see all the time, but then some people, I think, you know, I think I'm seeing someone and I'm not. And I do see funny things, you know, I think I'm seeing something. I remember saying to the kids recently, what's that over there? I think we were stood outside the apple shop in town, said, what's that? And they said, it's a child. I went, oh, thought it was a statue. So, you know, you're not really sure sometimes what you're seeing, what surprised you. The most in

Hannah Cohen: society around your condition. So you said to yourself, you don't want to describe yourself as blind, you prefer visually impaired, because blindness is misunderstood. So by saying visually impaired, you're almost implying that it's not absolute. Do people lack understanding? I

Joanne Lockwood: guess I think the thing is. And also why I've you know, some of my works around hidden disabilities is because often in some ways, you know, it is invisible to people. Well, it always is. But in some ways that's really good because, you know, I can be an inverted commas normal, which, you know, I suppose some people with their disabilities aren't able to do that. But in a lot of ways it makes me invisible in other ways, as in people forget that I have it and then I feel excluded in lots of situations. But also, I always have to advocate for myself. You know, if I go into a shop and I can't find something, I have to ask people constantly. Whereas maybe if I went in with a stick, people would come up to me and ask me if they can help me. So, you know, there are pros and cons, I think, to hidden disabilities, and I think it's probably the same with every kind of hidden disability. It's almost like you want a T shirt that says, I have a

Hannah Cohen: sight impairment, visual impairment, but I'm kind of okay, just, just, just be ready to help if I need it. But don't. That would be perfect. Don't patronise me and mother me. Yeah, you know

Joanne Lockwood: what? That is exactly right. Sometimes I just want to paint on my forehead and sometimes I don't want anyone to, you know, it is really. Yeah, it's, it's. It is very tricky because. Exactly. I don't want people to patronise me and, you know, mother me or whatever. But at the same time, I do need help a lot of the time. I've got a good friend of mine who, who was born with

Hannah Cohen: cerebral palsy and she has a power wheelchair and she's fearfully independent. You try and you try and mother her manager or do anything for her that she hasn't asked for. She'll. She'll bite her like a. Yeah, like a puppy. But being around her taught me that when I'm with her, I'll know. She'll ask if she wants some help and I'll be sitting there and she'll say, it's my round. And she'll, she'll scoot off the bar and she'll come back with a, With a. One of the bar staff in attendance carrying the drinks. So she doesn't expect us to be the bar staff. And, yeah, sometimes she'll sit there and say, my shoe's fallen off. Can you put my shoe back on, please? Or when you're sitting there having a meal, she'll. She'll ask the waiter, can you please cut my food for me? Rather than ask her friends to cut the food. So she's very good at advocating, but I also know that she'll just look at me and go, can you? I go, of course, but I would never offer that. Yeah, so it's knowing when to. When to help, when not to help. I guess that's the same with you. You expect new people around you to be mind readers and be emotionally intelligent enough to figure out this is a Hannah moment, we need to be there. Yeah, 100%. I mean, my friends

Joanne Lockwood: always say they know I'm so independent and I hate having to ask for things, but I do have to sometimes. But, yeah, some of the time I wish they were all psychic and just knew that I want to go to the shops and why aren't they going to collect me now? But other times I don't want anyone to ask me and I will ask if I need it. So, yeah, there's a balance. But I am. Yeah, I'm very independent and I think that's one of the hardest things. You do feel like in some ways you've lost your independence. Especially for me stopping driving because, you know, especially having children, I can't drive them around. I have to ask other people, you know, it is difficult.

Hannah Cohen: Did it come on suddenly? Was it. Or was it over a period of time?

Joanne Lockwood: No, one eye, sort of. So it's like the central vision loss. So one eye went. But I didn't really realise. It's strange when you don't have one eye, you still see fine. So one eye went. And then I sort of mentioned it to someone and they said, I think you should go to the optician. Anyway, you know, a few months later, the second one. And over the time I'd been to the optician, I'd been sent to a ophthalmologist and anyway, long storey short, I got admitted to hospital. They pumped me with steroids and all different things. I had like lumbar puncture, all. All different things. In the end, there was nothing they can do. It's a condition. That is what it is really. It's something that triggered, which I didn't know was in me already. And that's it. There's nothing they can do. There's. It's quite rare, but, you know, over time, who knows what might be able to be done. But currently, no, nothing. There's no equivalent to the cochlear implant for

Hannah Cohen: optic nerves at the moment, is there? No, they're doing

Joanne Lockwood: stem cell. I don't even know what it's called, but, you know, but there's nothing that's actually worked as of yet. Yeah, I don't know if there's other conditions that are, you know, like ahead of it and terms of research, but yeah, who knows what the future holds?

Hannah Cohen: So saying that it manifests itself as such, the central vision's failed. You've still got some periphery. Yeah, I mean, it's strange because I don't see,

Joanne Lockwood: you know, to me it just looks like I've got normal vision but blurry. But yes, essentially I've got peripheral vision. So your out of focus peripheral vision is doing the seeing.

Hannah Cohen: So, yeah, I can't sit at the corner of my eye. I know there's something there, but I can't focus on it. That's kind of what you've got and that's all you've got. So you're aware of things moving around you. So you've probably still got that reaction, have you? Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.

Joanne Lockwood: It is strange. I mean, I feel like I. Sometimes I feel like I can see fine, even though I can't, obviously. It's blurry, you know, in a small space, basically, you know, I can sort of almost tell what everything is and who everyone is. And as soon as it's slightly further away, that's when there's more of a struggle. But, yeah, like if my son's in his room, in a room with his friends, I can't tell which one's which. But, you know, so, yeah, you just. Got four or five blobs of humanity. Little.

Hannah Cohen: Little human, basically. They all look similar. I mean, if

Joanne Lockwood: one's blonde and one's brown, I couldn't tell. But otherwise they're all. They're all just teenage boys who smell. Yeah, you're mine. Exactly. I can

Hannah Cohen: imagine that you are. Put them in special coloured T shirts and colour code them, like jockeys or something, so you could tell. Yeah, that'd be

Joanne Lockwood: perfect. How did.

Hannah Cohen: I mean, you say you've got boys and you've got family and how have they adjusted to you so? Well, actually, I became a

Joanne Lockwood: widow seven and a half years ago, so. No, thank you. So it's just me and my two kids. My teenage son, who is almost 17, nearly learning to drive, and my daughter, who's 19, who's just gone to university. So it was a struggle because I was their sole parent looking after them and then they had to sort of take on more responsibilities and, you know, I didn't ever want them to look after me and I didn't need looking after. But it was a journey and we've been through a lot, but no, we're, you know, they're amazing and they're more resilient because of it. And like my daughter at uni, she's not struggled at all in terms of independence. Cause she's used to being independent and used to doing stuff for herself. So I suppose there's pros and cons, but yeah, the kids are brilliant and all my friends and family have been amazing help. So that creates a problem

Hannah Cohen: in the future as well, doesn't it? So you want to ensure your children have their lives, they're not encumbered by you for want of a better way, not burdened by you and say if you want to go to uni, you want to go off to live your life, I fully understand that that must be a daunting prospect for you. Yeah, well,

Joanne Lockwood: it's very strange having my daughter away. And once my son goes to university, which he says he wants to, I mean, that will be very odd. I am learn my daughter is very helpful tech wise. My son's not so techie. So I'm trying to learn to do more tech things that I would normally just say, oh, can you just help me? Because it's quicker. But I'm learning to do more on my own because she's not here. But yeah, I mean it's. Yeah. The thought of them both not being here is very strange. I know I could, I know I could. I'll, I'm, you know, I'm okay without them. But sometimes you sort of rely on people around you just for the little jobs, just to save time.

Hannah Cohen: Yeah. So you've got things, you've got your Amazon Wishlist set up, you got your Tesco's online ordering, you can do all that and.

Joanne Lockwood: Exactly. And when they deliver, they'll put it in the cupboards for you if you

Hannah Cohen: ask these days, won't they? So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, as long as

Joanne Lockwood: they bring it in for me. And sometimes I'll say, oh, what's this? You know, and they'll, they'll say, well, you ordered that, didn't you? But that's when

Hannah Cohen: you need the T shirt. Yeah, exactly. I think it's being impaired, not stupid. Please help. The problem is, is that I don't, you know, if someone is dropping

Joanne Lockwood: my shopping off, I don't like to tell them I'm visually impaired. When, which is, you know, they're coming in my house. I don't know who they are really. I do feel a bit vulnerable sometimes. So I Don't, actually. Yeah. I don't know, you know, if that's necessarily the right thing, but that's how, you know, I feel safer that way. It's very interesting point, I suppose. Yeah. You're. You're. By being

Hannah Cohen: vulnerable, it makes you. Vulnerable. Exactly. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I. You know, I do feel a bit more vulnerable in certain. Certain situations, which I didn't before. But, you know, I'm sort of, you know, you get used to it, really. You get

Hannah Cohen: anxious when you're out alone? Sometimes. Yeah. You know, I.

Joanne Lockwood: I take the dog out every day on my own and I know, you know, I know the area, I know where I'm going and. And I can see the contrast of the payments. But sometimes, you know, if I have to cross a small road and I can pretty much tell if a car's coming, but occasionally a car just turns up. I'm like, oh, my God, you know, and things like that. And I notice when I'm walking, I am more anxious than I used to be because I do have to take more care and I have to be, you know, more aware, really. Oh, yeah. But, you know, I love getting out as well, so it's. I think I also am very anxious, not intentionally, but when I'm in shops, because there's just. It's. It's just a bit of a stressful situation, being in a place where you don't currently see anything. And also there's lots of people around. Who are they? Do I know them? Do they know me? You know, it's. It's strange. I mean, I don't know what. Why

Hannah Cohen: I'm saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway as you're talking. It's a bit like being in a strange hotel and needing the loo in the middle of the night and there's no lights on and, you know, the bathroom's around here somewhere and there's a. You can just about see something, but you. You don't realise that the doorstop is just there and you end up kicking it or something, or hopes. You bang your head on something. You think, what was that? Oh, that was the hair dryer. Yes.

Joanne Lockwood: All the time. Actually, recently, I was away for a few days and I came back and I was in bed and I got up in the middle of the night to go to the toilet and I just did not. You know, when you don't know where you are. Yeah. But then, because I couldn't really see, I was so confused where I was walking. But, you know, I suppose it happens to everyone in the dark. Most people can't see much anyway. So.

Hannah Cohen: Yeah, is. Is your. Sorry, if this is invasive. Is your site going to deteriorate more over. Over time or has it got to the worst? I think. Well, it took a

Joanne Lockwood: bit of time, actually, to settle. It did take at least a year and a half, maybe longer, to feel like and knew where it was and where I could go and how I felt. It took quite a while, but I don't think it's gonna deteriorate. But because it's a rare condition, you never really know, but hopefully not. So

Hannah Cohen: you had. I think it's just reading into what you're just saying. It wasn't overnight. It grew or failed over the course of time. So you had a chance to adjust in some respects, sort of. I mean, overnight I couldn't drive, but

Joanne Lockwood: it almost went worse. It almost was worse, and then it got better. I don't know if it. If it was bad or if I needed to get used to it for it to settle, if that makes sense. I don't know if it was in my mind because of the stress and the anxiety, if that made it so much worse because it's such a massive shock. So, yeah, I don't know really. You know, I was never really told at the hospital. You know, it's this level and then it's this level because people do say to me, oh, what number are you? I'm minus one. Whatever I said, I actually have no idea. And I do wear glasses, and I wore glasses before. They were exactly the same glasses, and they stopped me getting eye strain, but they don't make me see different. Okay. It's not

Hannah Cohen: a focusing issue. It's not a lens issue. Is just. No, I think I

Joanne Lockwood: had a stigma. I don't know if that makes a difference now. As in, I don't know if that's still there. I have no idea. I'm not very good with medical stuff, but all I know is they help with eye strain. So I just put them on when I'm staring at a screen or that's the front door. There goes. Maddie's going, man, just let

Hannah Cohen: Hannah answer the front door. We're okay. We're cool with this. We've done it before, haven't we, listeners? Oh, well, it's a sign of your resilience that, you know, the doorbell rings and you still go up and answer it. Yeah, you still. You still got to live your life, haven't you? You can't just say, exactly, I'm visually impaired. I Can't. It could do. No, life's gonna happen.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, exactly. I mean, people say to me all the time, you're so resilient, but I just. I mean, I just feel like you either live your life or you don't. And I live my life. Yeah. I don't feel resilient. I feel like I've just got to do and live.

Hannah Cohen: Do you. Do you get the. Or you're brave all the time? Yeah. You get brave? Yeah, it's good. Do you get that as well? Yeah, I get brave sometimes. Yeah. Not so much these days, but yeah. Yeah. Brave. Or. My wife Marie gets brave as well because we've been married 38 years, so she's had to cope with a fair bit of flack for me. So, yeah, it's. I always think about it when you're not actually brave at the time, so you really look over your shoulder and go, oh, wow, maybe I was a bit. But when you're dealing with it, you're just dealing with it, aren't you, in the moment. Yeah, exactly. I mean,

Joanne Lockwood: I didn't make a decision, oh, I'm going to be really brave and resilient and get out of bed today or anything. It's like, well, I either get out of bed or I. Well, you don't. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You don't get breakfast if you stay in bed.

Hannah Cohen: Unless your children are feeling like it. Man is going to go angry.

Joanne Lockwood: Yes, exactly. And the delivery driver will be at the door, knocking on, saying,

Hannah Cohen: take your parcel. You have just got to get on with things, haven't you? And you can't. Can't hide from the world as much. Sometimes you want to have a duvet day, I suppose. Yeah, no, exactly. I mean,

Joanne Lockwood: look, life's hard and lots of people have struggles of all different types, but you just have to try and get on with it and live your best life, you know, I'm not saying that my life every day is a happy, perfect day, but overall it's good.

Hannah Cohen: So you work with teams, leaders in businesses, individuals as well. What if they often come to you to talk about what's. What's. What's the thing they cover? So the teams, you know, and the leaders. Well,

Joanne Lockwood: the teams are more, you know, the company gets me in. So then, you know, it's not. It's sort of less of a choice for them. But it's amazing speaking to them and working with them in their workshops because some of them are just so unaware about a lot of hidden disabilities and they just. It feels like they're learning loads, which I just love. I love helping people to understand other people and understand why they might have acted like that. One person said in a workshop, right, my brother's neurodiverse. I always just call him really annoying because he drives me mad. But now I actually understand that he's struggling and I'll be nicer to him and I, you know, things like that are really great to hear people say. And then the leaders, you know, a lot of leaders struggle working with their employees, you know, whether it's neurodiversity or people with medical conditions that are classed as hidden disabilities or mental illness, you know, and a lot of it is just letting them know that it's okay to just ask people, what do you need to be able to do the job? Or, you know, how can I help you? Often these questions are all people want and, you know, people get so worried about knowing what to say or. But, you know, often it's just ask people, how can you help them? And that makes a massive difference. Yeah, because

Hannah Cohen: you are your own best advocate, aren't you? You know what you need and if you're not sure, just say, what can I do to make your life easier right now? Tell me. Exactly. Exactly. It's not a dark.

Joanne Lockwood: No, it's not. And it makes a massive difference, especially in companies, you know, for their employees. They just want to feel like, they want to feel understood and valued, you know, one to one, coaching is different. It's, you know, I do it in the companies, but out as well. And that's more for people who might have hidden disabilities and they're struggling to cope in certain situations or in work. And also people whose maybe children have been diagnosed in neurodiversity and they're struggling to deal with them or they're realising that they are neurodiverse all of a sudden after getting their kids diagnosed and they're realising they actually must have it and, oh, that's why my life's been like this for 30, 40 years. So there's so many different things around hidden disabilities that I just find really interesting and want to help people and, you know, work with people. In your experience, when you're working with

Hannah Cohen: other people, maybe with hidden disabilities as well, do they have a very similar outlook as yourself on this? I don't always want to share it and sometimes I need to and sometimes I don't want to. Is it. It's when relevant, isn't it? Yeah. Look, I think some people are different.

Joanne Lockwood: Some people want people to know all the Time. You know, some people might wear a lanyard or a badge. Yes. Yeah. And some people don't want people to know at all. So it can be quite varied. Yeah, I feel like I'm generally very happy to just talk about it and tell people. Whereas, you know, other people. I know, we're different disabilities of much more reserved. Well, not reserved, but, you know, they just don't. Don't like anyone to know and they're just. Yeah, it's not. It's maybe more private.

Hannah Cohen: Well, I've got friends who are neurodiverse, neurospicy, sometimes whatever language they use to describe themselves. And some of them will start every sentence with my adhd, you know, sort of. It's almost like they're everything. It revolves around their ADHD or their autistic traits or whatever it may be. And there are other people who are arguably undiagnosed, but exhibit the characteristics of someone with ADHD or autism, ausd, and they just get on with life. And it's different, isn't it? People have told me I've got a level of neurodiversity. I don't. I don't need to be diagnosed. I'm quite cool with it. Certainly not the characteristic I'm worried about. I've got other things going on in my life. I don't need another diagnosis. Yeah, you see, you recognise the traits in different people, but some people need that diagnosis, don't they? They need that part of their identity. You might say I am blind as an adjective, as an identity describer, because it gives you a sense of community and understanding and recognition. Or you might just say, actually, I just don't see as well as I used to. I'm fine. Yeah, no, definitely, you

Joanne Lockwood: know, I mean, I can work with people who don't have diagnosis and vice versa, but just everyone is so different. And, yeah, some people really want everyone to know. They want to shout it, you know, this is almost. Sometimes I feel like some people just need it. It's like, this is me, this is why I've been like this. And, you know, and other people just, you know, it's irrelevant. They just get on, this is me. Doesn't matter what I am, Give me. The meds, I need them. If not, don't worry about it. Yeah, exactly.

Hannah Cohen: Yeah, I'm with you. You're right. We're a mixed bag of humanity. We're all going to respond to different situations differently. And some people need that sense of belonging in that community to feel maybe safer, maybe feel more empowered. As a result of it. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: yeah. I just try to help people understand their strengths and use their own strengths, whatever they are. You know, we all have our own strengths and as long as you can harness them, you know, you'll get where you want to go. Yeah. You mentioned right at the beginning about

Hannah Cohen: the struggle that your. Your workplace, a small employer, small practise. To what extent should your employer have invested more in you? I mean, because think about the Equality act, access to work, all those schemes, it's. Did they do the minimum or is it just. They just didn't have the resources? I think

Joanne Lockwood: it's a mix of things. I think they didn't have the resources. They didn't. Sorry, that was Alexa. She thought she'd get involved as well. I don't think they've got the resources. I don't think they really knew what to do. I think this was the first time anything like this had happened to them as well as me. They've been very, very supportive. So mentally, if that makes sense. But in terms of the work stuff, I've sort of got on with it myself a bit. Had to speak to access to work and get things inputted and stuff. You know, I think there are pros and cons being in, say, in the firm or in the position I've been in, in the office, as in everyone's so loving and welcoming. When I was off sick, you know, I took about a year off because, you know, I had to sort of just get to grips with the. My new reality. You know, they'd come and visit and always. They were always looking out for me. So, you know, other people might have been a different situation when they had all the software, but no one actually speaking to them in, you know, were looking out for them. So I don't know exactly, really. But yeah, it's been tricky, I guess. Also, I mean, just listen to your storey, about your career change

Hannah Cohen: and. Or pivot, which I wish describe it. Your outlook on life also changed. So maybe you. You lost the passion to be a solicitor and do what you were doing. So even if. If they. Even if they'd been the perfect employer, put all these tools in place, your brain was being exhausted by the new reality of having to process information in a sequential audio format. So your own expectations about what you wanted to do change as well, didn't they? Definitely. And,

Joanne Lockwood: you know, I just feel so passionate about the inclusion work. You know, I'm really enjoying it and the more I learn about it, the more I talk to people, the more I just Want to be doing it all the time. And I'm not sure I ever really felt like that about law, to be honest.

Hannah Cohen: My background, it was more of like. A means to an end. Oh, Really? I spent 20, 25 years in either in electronics or IT, and then I discovered people and it was like, wow, this is. This is far more enjoyable. I get engaged with empathy, compassion. My life is so, so much more enriched in the last 10 years than it ever was. I'm not saying I had a bad life. Yeah. I've opened a box and found a whole new treasure. And it sounds like you found the same.

Joanne Lockwood: No, definitely it. I feel like I'm almost like blossoming into myself and I'm learning about myself as well as the world, people, everything. Yeah, I feel definitely enriched. I've got

Hannah Cohen: friends who've talked to me about the social model of disability as opposed to the medical model. And the key thing is it's society that is disabling society doesn't enable you and you're probably hyper aware of that yourself now about these unseen barriers. And I think it doesn't mean that people are bad people, they're just wearing blinkers and they see the world through their own lens. They don't see the world through your eyes, therefore they don't understand what it means to be think about your needs. Everyone's so busy focusing on what they want. Yeah, no,

Joanne Lockwood: 100%. Look, the world has been designed for. I mean, there's say, able bodied, but you know, that term isn't always accepted. But yeah, the typical. Because even for neurodiverse people, the workplace isn't built for them. You know, there's just so much that I think over the next, I don't know how long, 10, 20, 30 years, things are going to change massively to make sure that either everyone gets what they need separately or the world is built in a bit more of a more open way to serve more people, really. I

Hannah Cohen: spend a lot of time with my mum, she's what, 86? And she needs to use a rollator now. She struggles to walk, she ends up with back pain, she walks too far without the rollator. Like I was talking about my friend who has cerebral palsy in a wheelchair. Until you've spent a day or two or a lot, a lot longer with these people, you don't realise how inconvenient the world is for them. Stuff that I take for granted, you know, I remember going to London with my friend and just getting on, off the train. Finding the underground was just a huge Sojourn around trying to navigate different lifts, all this and curbstones and buses. I took my mum to Edinburgh back in the spring and we booked passenger assistance and it was a bit hit and miss. It wasn't great, you know, you felt like you were having to try to figure it out on your own. And on the way back, first class, we were travelling first class on the train. We turned up at the first class land. Result, my mum's books took Passenger Assistance. Have you checked in with Passenger Assistance downstairs? No, I haven't. Can you deal with that for me? My mum is 86, she's just about made it here. Oh, okay. And then all of a sudden this person was wandering around the lounge shouting at this person's name. I thought, that's not my mum. Okay, I'll just sit here. I look at my watch thinking, our train's leaving in about 15 minutes and I know how far it is from the first class lounge at Edinburgh to the first class carriages on the platform. I said, look, my mum says, your mum this. I said, no, that's not my mum's name. Well, you're sure it's not your mother? I said, I'm very sure it's not my mother's name. What a silly question. And eventually we. I got the person at the desk to run off and then she disappeared. I was now faced with nobody with a radio and I managed to grab something and said, look, your person here has gone off to cheque something and we're now five minutes before the train departs. We are not going to be happy if we miss our train and my mum cannot run, okay? And I know you don't want to hold the train up, so what are we going to do here? Eventually I will take you now. I mean, fog marched from the first class lounge down in this train and by the time we got there it was like my mum was. I was struggling. We get on the train and they take my mum's relay to. They stick it in the luggage rack, which then probably falls off and hits somebody else. And I wrote, well, I say I wrote me and my friend Chatgpt, we wrote a little complaint letter because our train on the way up was 45 minutes, no, an hour late, I think it was on arrival. They can't. No, they cancel the train we booked on. The next one we could get was two hours later. So we're automatically entitled to a refund on the journey up. So I wrote a complaint letter about this passenger assistance. Now all this played up and so we got Return back free as well. So two of us, there's no way back. £400 worth of first class ticket to Edinburgh, we got free. It doesn't compensate for the poor experience. But me and my mom did laugh and sort of wink at each other go, wow. It wasn't so bad after really was. Could have been worse. We could have missed the train. My mum could have been on her own. I mean she's feisty, she could have self advocated but she probably wouldn't have wanted to in the same forceful way I was able to. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: it's. You must find that yourself, you know things. Yeah. You find yourself

Hannah Cohen: having to complain and get angry more than you really want to. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: I think overall, with things like passenger assistance and the, the ones at the airport, overall I've had good experiences. I think the times I've not had good experiences is when I'm trying to do it myself in a way. But it is hard because you've got to rely on these people. If they don't pick you up like you know, from the lounge and take you where you want to go, you're not going anywhere, are you? A few weeks ago I was in London and I was staying at my sister in law's and I wanted to go to a conference in Wembley, a coaching conference. I thought, okay, I can manage to get from there to there and then I'll ask someone. But it was a lot harder than I thought it would be and I could have booked some sort of assistance, at least some of it, but I didn't because I thought, well, I'll just ask. But it was quite hard and it was quite stressful. It just made me realise that maybe I can't do some things on my end that I want to do or thought I could. Yeah, it's, it's hard. I mean I think there's, there's apps probably that I don't know about that, you know, it's like navigating apps that I've never tried that I need to look into because that was the first time that I tried to navigate myself from one place to another. Yeah. And I realised that Google Maps does not do that for me these days. So I think there are others out there I just have never tried. If it's in London

Hannah Cohen: or any major city. City Map was a good app. That

Joanne Lockwood: one's not accessible either. It's about it sort of being really accessible and then reading to me where you know, you're in this direction, go that way. City Mapper. I'm not sure I don't think that. I don't think that was accessible. When I was in London, I did try it. I think Google Maps was telling me where to go. I just couldn't work out where it was. Telling me it was like, go down this road. I'm like, well, I don't know which road that is. You know, I need one that says go straight ahead. You know, works out where I'm going sort of thing. I

Hannah Cohen: would have thought City map would have done that. It was said bus stop, get on the 76, in, in. In two, five or 10 minutes or something. It would turn in the buses. I don't know. I did. I'm sure

Joanne Lockwood: I tried to click on it to try and work something out and the buttons just said button rather than, you know, that sort of thing. The interface wasn't

Hannah Cohen: intuitive. Yeah, yeah. Often interfaces don't work with a

Joanne Lockwood: voiceover or different screen reader tech. Yeah, that's true.

Hannah Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. Websites, I guess. Do you get annoyed with the lack of alt text and visual descriptions and things? Yeah. I used to love shopping. I mean, I still love

Joanne Lockwood: shopping. That's a lie. But it's so much more difficult now. Unless there's good descriptions on things, it's impossible. I mean, I've ordered things before and they've turned up and they haven't been what I expected. They've been the colour. And, you know, I know it's a brown top, but it's got all this detail that I didn't know it had and I wouldn't have ordered it, you know, so it's really frustrating. Really frustrating. There's so much that isn't accessible that you don't realise until you're using some like, you know, accessible screen reader technology type of thing. You don't. You just don't know. I mean, I didn't know any of this even existed really, before my site changed. So it's. It's amazing what is out there, but it's. It's very frustrating how little is accessible as well.

Hannah Cohen: It's getting better, isn't it? It is getting better. I look at Apple technologies and Microsoft technologies. It is built into the core of the platform these days, isn't it? Yeah, I use all

Joanne Lockwood: Apple stuff and I think it's brilliant. Yeah. But, yeah, some websites just very, very hard to use. So do you. Can you still put mascara

Hannah Cohen: on? Yes and no. I do it,

Joanne Lockwood: you know, by sort of feel. But occasionally, you know, I'll get it in my eye or on my face or my. I'll come Downstairs. And my daughter will go, you've got makeup all down here on your cheek. But generally people say to me, oh, your makeup's nice. Who did it? I do, but I don't know what it looks like. But apparently it looks good. And why not? Exactly. I mean, you know, there are pros and cons. I don't look wrinkly and I don't think I ever will. To

Hannah Cohen: me, no, you'll always be the age you were.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, exactly. So you don't go to the hairdresser and say, just make it look

Hannah Cohen: fabulous. Well, actually, I told my hairdresser to tell me

Joanne Lockwood: when I was grey enough to need some colour doing. And she said, you've got some greys, you're not. I don't think you need it doing yet, but I think you might want to do it. As in, you might. If you could see, you would probably want it done. So she picked them out and put a bit of colour on. But, you know, I'm paying for all this stuff that I can't even see. It seems a bit mad, but, you.

Hannah Cohen: Know, that's the beauty industry, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.

Joanne Lockwood: I'm definitely not bought into so much stuff because I think, well, I can't see what I'd be using it for. But a lot of my friends are into all different things. You know, there's so many amazing products out there now, or gadgets. Does it change your relationship with food? Because a

Hannah Cohen: lot of food is it's smell and sight, isn't it? You know, you go into a restaurant and the. The menu, the appetiser, you know, you're looking at the menu, the visual colours and the. It's all that marketing. First, you must largely go for something you. You've had before. Do you fall for it? I don't think so. The

Joanne Lockwood: one thing which is actually quite funny is, you know, like, if you see a dessert, you think, oh, I really want that. Well, I don't really get that because I can't see it. So that actually it helps quite a bit. But in terms of, you know, on a menu, I mean, it's a pain. You know, I normally ask who I'm with, someone who I'm with, to read the menu to me and, you know, if someone's reading it and, oh, can you stop that? Oh, can you read that again? I missed that. And by the end they're fed up and I can't be bothered listening anymore. I just picked something that might. I've spent more time thinking over things and looking at the menu and, you know. But I don't think it majorly affects food. I mean, it affects what I make at home because I've got like, you know, jars of spices. Well, I can't be bothered spending time with my phone trying to work out which one's which. I just make something that I make all the time, really. I guess the salad bar at

Hannah Cohen: Harvester you need help with these days as well. Pardon? Sorry? The salad bar at Harvester. God, yeah. That's impossible. Anything like that is

Joanne Lockwood: impossible. I reckon that's sweet corn. That's probably kidney beans.

Hannah Cohen: That's probably a bit of beetroot. Yeah, exactly. I did actually

Joanne Lockwood: go to a hotel with some family a while ago and. And they have to, they have to literally go around with me and say, right, this is this, and this is this. It's. Anyway, it's not that much fun. 15, 15 or so years ago, I was at a

Hannah Cohen: restaurant, they were hosting this. I think it was a five or six course set meal called. I think they called it the around the world night. So you had a different dish. They sold the restaurant seats out so you couldn't just turn up. See, they put the whole restaurant out and you had to put the five or six courses and you just sit there and they just serve you the next course. Next course. And on the table next to the friend I was with and I. She was blind, visually impaired, whatever script she'd like to use, but she clearly couldn't see and she was feeling in the cutlery, feeling the plate. Yeah, starting to eat. And what she didn't see was a really hot large chilli on top of the meal. Of course, everyone's plate looked the same. Mine arrived in front of me, my friends arrived in front of his. We looked down clearly, we could see a nasty high powered chin. It wasn't a. I think we're made of a firecracker and there's really one to get in the jail phrases type meal. And she just tuned into it and of course she had no forewarning about this heat explosion in her mouth. And she was completely distraught, completely shocked and she felt violated. She'd been attacked by this chilli. This pain came out of nowhere and yeah, that's horrible. And it was, it made me realise that, you know, when you think about accessibility, popping a chilli or popping something on a bit of food, you've got a lot of responsibility there to say to the people as you put it down, be careful, this is hot, the plate's hot, the pan's Hot. And there's a chilli on top. And I think we have to audio describe for our restaurant goers as well. It sounds like could have happened to you in this scenario. Definitely. I mean, I have, you know, taken a

Joanne Lockwood: mass. You know, when sometimes they put one of those massive chunks of parsley on top of something, just a big tree and I've. I've gone in, I'm like, oh, what's that? But luckily it wasn't chilli. But I have. I can't remember why. I don't know if it was decorative or what, but, you know, taking a big piece of lemon in my mouth, like a wedge of lemon that was in something about, oh, what's that? You know, things like that that don't need to be there or should be on the side or explain. But often I'll say to people if I'm sat with someone, which I generally am when I'm in a restaurant where, you know, I ask them to sort of point out where everything is or what it is on the plate. If I know there's a selection of things and say, you know, which one the potatoes, which one's the. Just so I've got. Especially if it, you know, if you order something like white fish and then the plate's white and then the potatoes are white and you're like, it's just. A one colour just plate. Yeah, exactly. You need like audio captions

Hannah Cohen: live for the real world. Exactly. I mean, that would be

Joanne Lockwood: perfect. But often my companion, whoever it may be, is my audio describer. And I always say to the kids as well, if we're walking out and about, I say, you know, make sure you tell me, you know, if we see someone and they just come up to me go, hi, Hannah. Who have I said? And often I'll just say to someone's face, who are you? You know, because I've given up being polite. I

Hannah Cohen: mean, we've been having a conversation now for what, 55 minutes and a lot of what we're talking about is your real life experience of being not included. I'm not going to. I'm not saying you've been excluded, but you haven't been consciously included. So you're having to do more self advocacy than you would. You feel you should have to, because the world is still assuming the normality of that 80% of people who are in the middle of there somewhere. Yeah. I think you've highlighted some things that I hadn't considered before about what we as individuals need to do. We as business need to do we as colleagues, whatever it may be, just to be more consciously inclusive, not just of visual impairment, hearing, other sensory perceptions, neurodiversity, whatever it may be, because it could happen to us. One in six of us will lose our hearing at some point in our life. I'm not sure what the stats are for sight, but certainly one in six. We'Re

Joanne Lockwood: hearing, I can't, I don't know what the stats of a site but there's, there is, there are some stats about how many people will become disabled by the time they're, you know, whether that's 60, 70, 80, age, you know, most people will become disabled of some sort in their life, lifespan and yeah, you know, you don't know what someone's going through even if you don't know they're visually impaired or they're neurodiverse, you know, maybe they're just having a horrendous day and they just need a bit more compassion. All four of our

Hannah Cohen: parents went through a phase where they needed a blue badge, so that's four out of four around mid-80s years old. So at some point it's pretty certain that you're either going to have hearing, sight or physical. My wife just had a total knee replacement. And this is the crazy thing about the Equality act is that a disability is only class of disability if it persists for over a year. So the fact that my wife's had a total knee replacement, she's not entitled to any support, blue badge or anything like that because it's a transient condition and not more than a year. You think, well hang on a minute, she can't walk from the car to the car park. She's got no entitlement to use a, a disabled spot, pay for parking, whatever it may be. And it, it's, we've got to, we've got to think about those people who maybe don't quite hit the threshold and how are they supported as well? Yeah, definitely. And you know you could lose, you could lose your sight or your hearing to a point where you are disabled by most definitions but not disabled enough to qualify for support. And it's no definitely. And even if you do hoops, you have to jump, you'd be through access to work and any benefits you get you have to be brutally kind of assessed as to, you sure you can't work, you sure you can't provide that for yourself? Show us your budget, show us your money. Show us our father in law, he's just come out of hospital, broke two ribs. They thought he was going to die. At one point they sent him home. He said, well, what support can we get? Well, he's not broken enough, you know, he's. He's recovered. It's like, yeah, but if you don't help him, he'll fall over and he'll be back in hospital and he'll be back where we started. Well, we're not set up for that. We're set to fix what we can see, not prevent what might. Yeah, no, I know. And

Joanne Lockwood: you mentioned conscious inclusion. That's something that I speak about in my workshops, because it's not about consciously excluding people, it's just about consciously including everyone. So. So, you know, it doesn't matter what anyone's got or what they're going through or if they've got a diagnosis or if they're disabled or not really. It's about making sure everyone has what they need. Yeah. I always remember the storey about

Hannah Cohen: the. There was a person who got off an aeroplane, I think it was at one of the London airports, and he had his own custom wheelchair. And for whatever reason, that custom wheelchair wasn't made available at the gate when he got off the plane. And they offered to push him through the terminal in a one with a handle on the back, and he refused and said, I would rather drag myself on my knuckles through the terminal on the floor than have you push me in a wheelchair because that will make me disabled. You've taken away my autonomy, you've taken away my advocacy. You basically said, I am disabled. I am. I can do this myself. And I always use that as an example of how badly did that go. The gate staff could have handled that in such a different way, where this person would have felt validated, listened to, considered supported. They would not have escalated. But instead they say, here's a chair, get in it. That's the only option. And there was another one, wasn't it? The cop 26 was the climate in Edinburgh or Glasgow where one of the delegates was a wheelchair user and she couldn't get access to the venue. On the first day, she turned up and said the entrance wasn't accessible. There wasn't a plan B. You think, well, hang on a minute, this is basic stuff. Basic stuff, yeah. If your plan A fails, what's your plan B? C, D, E, F, G, all the way through to Zed or zz. Zzz. Keep coming up with plans. I always say to people, the first plan B is listen and ask the person, what could you do instead of you? And then you can base your Future plans on an individual.

Joanne Lockwood: No 100%. Too often we just job's worth. Or

Hannah Cohen: there's lack of empowerment. Lack of whatever it may be. And I'm sorry, we can't do that. I bet if I got angry with the right person, you'd make it happen. Yeah. Cut out the angry bit and just get the right person. Exactly. Because it's

Joanne Lockwood: exhausting. You don't want to have to get. Have to get angry every time just to get what you need. I know, but you almost know. You always know

Hannah Cohen: you're going to have to, though, don't you? That's the sad thing. Hannah, it's been fascinating chatting to you. I can't believe we've been rabbiting on now for nearly an hour and a half. Bit in the grin.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I've really enjoyed it, thanks. Your storey is incredible and

Hannah Cohen: I'm not going to use the brave or all those other words you have. You've got some true grit there. And I think what's come out of your adversity is you've discovered yourself and you found a passion, you found something that's going to drive you and you're changing the world in your own way. Thank you. It's fabulous. Well, I hope so. Thanks. How can people get hold of you? What's the best way of tracking you down? Well, I'm

Joanne Lockwood: on most of the social media sites. My business is called the Insight Coach, so you'll find me on Linked. Well, my name, Hannah Cohen on LinkedIn, the insight coach on Instagram and Facebook and my website, theinsightcoach.com. So, Hannah, just for accessibility

Hannah Cohen: is H A N N A H and Cohen, C O H E N. Is that right? Yeah. Brilliant. Find you on LinkedIn. And obviously, if someone's contacting you, be aware you're using a screen reader. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: yeah. Make it concise, make it easy. Yeah. Put no images and put some more text on the images if you're going

Hannah Cohen: to put them there. Yeah, exactly. People sometimes just send me an image and that's

Joanne Lockwood: it. I'm like, great, yeah. What's that?

Hannah Cohen: White fish on a white plate with potatoes. Isn't that. That should be the title of the episode. White fish. White potatoes with a bit of lemon. Yeah, Big wedge of lemon. Hannah, thank you. Great. Thanks, Jo. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion bites and become part of our ever growing community draw driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enrichment narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.