--- title: "Organising Chaos, Sparking Belonging" episode: 195 date: 2026-02-05 guest: "Amanda Van Der Heiden" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/195-organising-chaos-sparking-belonging audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-195/audio.mp3 --- # Organising Chaos, Sparking Belonging Joanne Lockwood is joined by learning and development leader Amanda Van Der Heiden to unpack what it really means to “organise chaos” and spark belonging at work. They explore why belonging is more than a DEI policy line—it’s a felt experience of being seen, heard, and valued—and how that feeling can be created (or undermined) through everyday communication, leadership habits, and organisational choices. Amanda shares how growing up between Kentucky and New York shaped her ability to navigate different worlds, connect across perspectives, and translate complexity into people-centred momentum. She also reflects on being visibly different due to piebaldism and what that taught her about empathy, assumptions, and inclusion. Together, they discuss practical approaches for bridging divides in polarised times: balancing authenticity with respect, adapting communication styles to different audiences, asking “why” to get to root causes, and supporting people through change. The conversation also touches on post-COVID shifts such as return-to-office expectations, the importance of trust, and how leaders can set people up for success by focusing on autonomy, intent, transparency, and strengths. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:40 — Inclusion Bites: Spark Change Together - 06:14 — Embracing Dual Upbringings - 06:49 — Breaking Free from Echo Chambers - 11:38 — People Fit Five Thought Patterns - 13:39 — Organising Chaos and Collaboration - 18:43 — Grabbing Attention in Seconds - 21:12 — Adaptation Through Lifelong Learning - 24:02 — Balancing Authenticity and Awareness - 27:24 — Effective Communication Requires Connection - 30:51 — Prioritising People for Organisational Success - 34:15 — Leadership Challenges During Remote Work - 37:30 — Leveraging Strengths in Diversity - 41:41 — Discovering the Deeper Why - 44:01 — Leaders Withholding the Full Picture - 48:24 — Flip Perspective for Growth - 50:37 — Mindset and Intent Create Success - 54:08 — Conscious Choices and Actions - 56:19 — Free Templates to Organise Chaos ## Key takeaways - The relationship between personal identity, cultural flux, and developing empathy for difference. - Strategies for navigating polarised environments without sacrificing authenticity or respect. - Key techniques for creating spaces of psychological safety and real belonging in teams and workplaces. - The impact of intentional, people-first leadership—focusing on adapting style and communication for organisational success. - Practical methods for addressing change resistance and supporting individuals through times of uncertainty. - Why transparent communication and involving people in the “why” behind initiatives drives stronger engagement and outcomes. - Actionable advice for self-awareness, reframing challenges, and fostering ongoing personal and professional growth. ## FAQs ### What does “organising chaos” mean in the context of inclusion and belonging? Organising chaos refers to the ability to unite diverse groups of people, perspectives, and backgrounds and guide them towards a shared purpose or outcome. As discussed by Amanda Van Der Heiden, it involves translating complex and varied scenarios into coherent, people-centred action that drives positive cultural and organisational change. --- ### Why is the sense of belonging so important in organisations? Belonging is fundamental because, as Joanne Lockwood points out, people are unlikely to thrive or remain in environments where they do not feel included and welcomed. It is described as a feeling, not simply a policy or checklist, and is what truly makes inclusion meaningful—without belonging, attempts at diversity and inclusion remain superficial. --- ### How did Amanda’s background influence her view on inclusion? Amanda Van Der Heiden grew up between two contrasting environments—Kentucky and New York—exposing her to polarised cultures and ways of thinking. This “in-between” upbringing taught her to adapt, empathise, and appreciate different perspectives, reinforcing the idea that there is no single truth, but rather multiple experiences and viewpoints. --- ### How can organisations balance standardisation with individuality in learning and development? To achieve both consistency and personal engagement, Amanda Van Der Heiden recommends organisations clarify the ‘what’s in it for me’ for learners while providing autonomy in how learning is accessed and experienced. This allows for a tailored approach that respects diverse learning styles without losing organisational coherence. --- ### What are practical steps leaders can take to create belonging? Leaders should focus on transparency, communication, and adaptability: Know your why: Regularly question the intent behind initiatives (using the “five whys” technique), to ensure authenticity. Meet people where they are: Allow flexibility (e.g., in work location or style), recognising that people excel under different conditions. Be transparent: Share the full picture, not just selected parts of a vision or project, to foster trust and motivate teams. Lead by example: Model self-awareness, show genuine care, and encourage open, two-way communication. --- ### How do you foster respectful, authentic communication in diverse teams? Both Amanda Van Der Heiden and Joanne Lockwood emphasise adapting communication to the audience. Authenticity matters, but so does empathy—understand your own style, but also adjust it so your message can be best received by others. This is compared to “negotiating the protocol,” like old dial-up modems aligning speeds before connecting. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in. Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to joe.lockwoodeechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 195 with the title Organising Chaos, Sparking Belonging. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Amanda Van der Heyden. Amanda is a Chaos coordinator and a relationship builder with over 20 years experience in L and D, leading global rollouts for over 40 companies across 15 countries, spread over 12 different industries, and of course, empowering teams through People first solutions. And when I asked Amanda to describe her superpower, she said that it is translating complexity into people centred momentum. That all sounds fascinating. I say hello, Amanda, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. So your name, it says to me Dutch. So you have some Dutch heritage in you? Yep, my dad is from the Netherlands. His whole family is still there. Amanda Van Der Heiden: He's the only one in the States. Wow. So you're. You're now in the States Joanne Lockwood: yourself? Yeah, Yep. Did you say New York or thereabouts. So in real life, I'm a New Yorker currently living Amanda Van Der Heiden: in Rhode Island. Very random. So it's been fun journey. So for Joanne Lockwood: someone who doesn't know the geography of the States too well, I mean, that's me. So Rhode island is on the east coast. Still isn't is so Amanda Van Der Heiden: with COVID and all the moving and fun stuff that happened, I used to be about an hour from Manhattan and then I moved down to Kentucky, which is like the Middle west, very drastically different world. And then all the way up to the tippy top point on the east side of little tiny Rhode island, so. So above you Joanne Lockwood: is Canada, is that? Yes, basically. Basically not too far away. If Amanda Van Der Heiden: you had asked a couple years ago, Rhode Island, I'd say, what's in Rhode Island? But just one of those things. Life takes you to new places and the People are really nice here, so I love it. But I definitely am missing the food from New York, that is for sure. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I was, I've been in New York probably three or four times. I, I worked over there and had a bit of a holiday there once. And you're right, there's. On every street corner there's, there's something else. Yeah, you've got the left Liftly, you got all those sort of places, you've got all the different zones and things. Whatever you want. And it's a bit like London I guess. You can. Whenever you want, whatever time of the day you want, whatever time of year you want, you can find whatever you like. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah. If you can't, they'll deliver it somewhere. Yeah, yeah, it's great melting pot. So the climate must be a Joanne Lockwood: bit cooler up in Rhode island. Does it? Yeah, it's off the water, so Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's, you know, northeast definitely right now it's really pretty. This is the right time of year. But it has both extremes, the heat in August and the freezing cold in the winter. So we definitely get the seasons here. What's the nickname of the state then? What's it, Joanne Lockwood: what is it? It's not Sunshine State. What is it? Quiz me. That's Amanda Van Der Heiden: California. Rhode island is the Ocean State because it's basically a tiny little island in the, in the. So it's completely an island. So you Joanne Lockwood: have a bridge over the top, do you? There's bridges everywhere, Amanda Van Der Heiden: there's. And the funny thing I've learned, so I've only been here about a year and a half and the fun part is, is that locals like local Rhode island people will be like, wow, you cross two bridges to be here. And I'm like, the bridges are like every five, 10 minutes. But apparently when you have a smaller island like this, it's like a big deal. When you cross two bridges to get somewhere, I'm like, it's only a 30 minute drive, it's not a big deal. But to them they measure things and how many bridges you cross to get, to get places. So that's pretty fun. So I guess if you, Joanne Lockwood: if you brought up there all your life, your whole life is centred around being an Islander, I guess. Is it? Yeah, yeah, I guess so. I'm still learning. You're not going to stir crazy then as a, as a, as a New York, you're not going. It's not like, ah, I need, I need more, I need, obviously you need more food, but can you, can you cope with the, the pace of life? Yeah, it, you know, I keep myself busy. I find Amanda Van Der Heiden: ways, I find ways. But no, the people are really, really great. So it's been a fun. It's been a fun adventure. See, Joanne Lockwood: when we were chatting in the green room and looking at some of the notes you put together, you kind of grown up between two worlds and not quite fitted in anywhere. So how did that come about? Is this your Dutch ancestry or is this something else in there as well? Yeah, my dad's from a different country, but when I talk about that, I'm Amanda Van Der Heiden: really talking about Kentucky and New York. So anyone in the States knows those are basically polar opposite places. Especially in the world today. The US is very polarised. Even back then, we're talking multiple decades ago. Kentucky is very rural, horses and different way of life. I explained to people who've never been, it's like going back like 50 years and people's rights and way of living and thought processes. And then in New York, you know, you're always pushing the boundaries and they want to be on the cutting edge and, you know, it's very, very, very drastically different world. And my parents divorced when I was very young and so I really was raised between two completely polar opposite environments. And it gave such a unique perspective because I'm. I always joke that, like, I don't fit anywhere, but I can fit in anywhere. It's one of those things where I'm not a perfect fit, but I can work with, meet with, socialise with any type of person because of it. And the nice part about growing up in kind of two extreme environments and is that you. It's not about the right way or the wrong way. It's about this is way this group does it. This is the way that group does it. This is the way people over here live. This is the way people over there live. And so you get this perspective of, you know, you don't have to take on the identity of, you know, your bubble. So often day people are in kind of like an echo chamber or they're, you know, their own little bubble. And even back in the day, especially before, like Internet and social media and all that fun stuff, like people just were a product of where they were born and raised and they hadn't been to other places before and been exposed to new things. Whereas for me, such a young age growing up in those extremes, I also learned that there's no capital T truth like there are. People believe strongly this is the way, but it's usually because they haven't been exposed to other ideas or other places. Or other groups before. Whereas, because from a very young age I was constantly being witness to and involved with so many different types of groups. It was not. It was refreshing and kind of liberating in the sense that you could truly figure out, oh, I like this, I don't like that. Leave this, take that, you know, take on a little bit of. And come to, you know, especially with parents divorcing very young, it wasn't like this was his storey, this was her storey. So the truth is probably somewhere over here, right. And so it's learning how to disseminate between those things. I also, I don't know if this is a viewing one, but my hair is my birthmark. I was born with it. And so when I was born in Kentucky and when I moved to New York, I moved in second grade. When all the other kids had been together for a few years, I moved with two colour hair, two coloured skin and a southern accent. They basically thought I was an alien from another planet. So. Which I basically was. And so being able to be so different, where you don't have the choice to fit in, you, you really just always stand out. It kind of, it's hard at first, but eventually you learn to just embrace who you truly are and own that and be okay with who that is and, and be happy with who that is and realise you don't have to take other people's perspectives or other people's opinions. You can truly do what makes sense to you. And that's kind of how I've lived through it. Well, you'll hear for those who are listening to this, not, not able Joanne Lockwood: to see the video, it is quite striking. It's. I guess it's like an albino. Yeah, that's exactly. It's funny you say this. So Amanda Van Der Heiden: it's called piebalism. So I'm partially albino, which is a medical impossibility, but here I am. It's very, very, very rare. Some people sometimes see my skin and think vitiligo, which is a degenerative disease. That's not what I have. It runs in my dad's side of the family. And it's just special. Like this is how I was born, this is how I'll die. Whereas vitiligo is more of like it, you get more over time and all that. So it's very, very rare. And so, so it's, it's a, it's definitely a differentiator. And I always joke it's a conversation starter. Cause I get it attracts all the people, crazies and the like. And so, you know, it's. It's interesting being so different. You learn a lot of interesting things with how people approach you and kind of the situations I've been in. But, yeah, I get. The two things I get the most often are I get Rogue from X Men. So for those listening, Rogue from X Men. And then I also now get Princess Anna from Frozen, so I have rogue red hair and then I have a white streak in the front. And now people. I say, oh, gee, how much people would die for that? Like, they. How much people pay to dye their hair like that? So now I'm in vogue, I'm in style. But, you know, when you're a kid and you're different, you know, it's hard to be different. But I think it teaches some really valuable lessons on empathy and inclusion and all of it, you know, Really? Joanne Lockwood: I love that. Yeah. I mean, my first reaction when I saw your hair, and I saw you when you came onto the show as well, loving your hair, it's imagined it was a style choice. And as you say, people pay good money to have that done. And you've had your roots done recently, sort of thing. So. Yeah. But no, it's. Own it. You never thought to dye it out or. I tried when I was little. Little, I tried because kids Amanda Van Der Heiden: can be really cruel and there's no pigment, so it doesn't hold colour. So I went to, like, a professional salon and they couldn't dye it. And then the second. Second question that people always get is, well, why don't you make your red as. As, like all white? And I'm like, you can't. So I've only seen one person my whole life get her hair as white as mine, who wasn't naturally. She was naturally a blonde to begin with and she had, like, dyed her hair, like, blue or something, and she stripped it. And so it was like, dead and brittle and, like, gross because she had, you know, taken all the pigment out of her hair, whereas mine's natural. And that's the other thing I get a lot. People are always shocked by this, but I have so many storeys. I could tell. But people will come up to me all the time, strangers, and pet me or try to take a picture with me. And you think it's like, you know, a lot of people dye their hair now. You think it wouldn't be so novel. But people still, like, constantly are coming up to me and trying to, like, pet me or talk about my hair. And it's really funny because the thing that you learn, actually, is that people, people are people. And literally there's about five things that people typically say. And the fun part, and I've kind of relearned this a few times throughout my life, but people really fit into one of five categories, usually the way they think. And so I hear the same things over and over again. And you search, and when they say it, they're saying it for the first time, so they think they're being creative and inventive and, oh, I'm gonna say this unique thing that nobody's heard of before, right? And it's, it's really funny because it's, it's very rare for someone to say something truly unique and different. And when they do, I'm like, ooh, your brain works different. You're interesting because usually it's like one of five things that people say. Have you seen a ghost? I've been in near death experience, Rogue or ana. How do you know how much people pay for that? You know, like, all those are the typical ones I get over and over again, but every once in a while I'll hear like something far out and I'm like, wow, your brain is very different. So. And I could do that with authority because I talk to a lot of people from around the world. So. Oh, my first reaction was, wow, I Joanne Lockwood: love it. And just it's, as you say, it's a conversation starter. It's brilliant. We called this title of this show, this episode, Organising Chaos, Sparking Belonging. That chaos you've lived in being a bit different. This dual culture, the Kentucky culture, the Dutch historic culture, the New York culture, now the Rhode island culture, that sort of. You've been in a constant state of flux most of your life and not sure what's up or what's down. As you say, you're not enough of this to be that and you're not enough of that to be this. The others living in the middle somewhere. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah. And it's funny because so what it really is is when I talk about organising the chaos. So my parents met because of horses. I'm alive because of horses. And so, you know, even from a very young age, when you're on a farm, you work for those who know. They know. And so I was doing. I was running horse programmes. I was running horseshoes when I was like 10 years old. Even my mom recently was like, how do you do what you do? And I was like, well, it's easy. Like, you rate. Like, I was running horse shows when I was a child, basically. And that's where kind of organising the chaos comes in when you have a large event or a lot of different types of people or a lot of different types of roles and variety and diversity and, you know, all this fun stuff is how do you bring them all together? And that's really a lot of what I do. And it's called a lot of different things in a lot of different places. But I consider myself kind of the glue that brings everybody together and like, okay, how are we going to work together? We may come from different perspectives, we may come from different backgrounds, different languages, different cultures, but how do we. How can we come together to get a shared result and get the best result possible? So I've been doing this a very long time and it was way before my corporate life, like even in my teenage years, you know, being able to bring people together to get a better result together, that's kind of what I do at the heart of what I do, like, if I oversimplify. But of course, the complexity that we talk about comes in when you have all these different types of people from different backgrounds having different views of what'll be the most successful. And how do you get them to agree and align and move forward in the right direction together? Well, that's the universal question, Joanne Lockwood: doesn't it? How do we get people to often talk about herding cats and pigeons? People very rarely go where you want them to go. And I guess the chaos ensues because we're all different, aren't we? Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, definitely. So you're an L and D Joanne Lockwood: specialist, you work across the world. And I think we were talking earlier, you said that you're often. I asked which time zone you're in. Say, well, I'm in the time zone of the moment, whoever you're speaking to. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And for those listening, L and D. So I'm a big believer in, like, spelling things out because L and D can mean a lot of different things. So I'm in learning development, so. But L and D can also be labour and delivery and a few other lnds come to mind. But so for me, it's learning development. So it's funny because growing up, I thought I'd be a teacher. My mom was a teacher. And like I said earlier, I coached horseback riding and I taught and I love working with kids. And so I actually went to university to be a teacher. And I'm an overachiever, so I was actually working in the school system while I was in college to become a teacher. And I realised that as much as I Love working with kids. I wanted to do more and I wanted to, you know, be able to continue to learn and improve and grow. And so I kind of fell into psychology and business because I've always loved psychology and how what makes people motivated and what makes people tick and interacting with all these different types of people from all the world. And so I fell into corporate America right out of undergrad, and then through a series of events a couple of years later, I came full circle back into adult learning and development. And so that's where I am. So I like to just joke, but it's true. I'm certified to train birth through death. And so it's a fun full circle of how do you. Continuous improvement and continuous learning. But so really having that full journey of learning and development from all stages of life. Yeah, I agree with you. Joanne Lockwood: I talk a lot about belonging and I think one of the key things to get the best out of people is they have to feel welcomed and they have to feel the paces for them, don't they? And it's very hard to describe what belonging means, but you know when you do. When you have it. Yeah. You know it when you Amanda Van Der Heiden: feel it. Yeah. And I always describe belonging or Joanne Lockwood: inclusion as a feeling. It's. I feel belonging, I feel included. I also say that you can, in the same way you can be with a whole lot of people and still be alone, lonely. Alone and lonely are different. I can be lonely in a room full of people and I can also. I can be included but not feel belonging. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, I think a lot of the time, businesses spend a lot of time talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, but they miss, they miss the magic, which is the belonging side. Because I'm not going to hang around for long if I, if I just, if it doesn't rub with me, it doesn't resonate if I feel awkward. And that's where the magic happens for me. And so, you know, calling this sparking belonging really, really resonates. Yeah, absolutely. Amanda Van Der Heiden: It's so often that people are especially like you talked about big businesses, right? They. They talk the talk, but it does, it doesn't. It either feels shallow or doesn't feel authentic or it feels like it's just checking a box. And so to truly have belonging where your employees or your contractors, consultants, feel belonging, they have to really understand your why of what you're doing. And really, they want to be seen. That's really all people want is to be heard and seen. And if they feel that then they are going to feel that sense of belonging and that they're cared for and if they don't, you know, people are good at sensing when something doesn't quite add up. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I mean in a modern world where we're where consuming huge amounts of video and online information and TikTok, you've certainly got, I think you've got about three seconds to get someone's attention and they'll just swipe it on to the next one. And that's a bit like belonging I guess as well where you instantly, no, not interested, that not interested, that not interested. And we're going to try and get people's, grab people's attention. And I do it again when I watch Netflix and trying to find a new box set. You start it off within five minutes. You think this is, this isn't going to work for me, move on. And it is. And that's how we can find our employees. Our customers feel they're walking in and just going, no, it's not working. And that's a really hard thing to nail down. Do you remember the sitcom Cheers? Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yep. In the 70s or 80s, whatever it was, or 90s. Joanne Lockwood: And I always thought that bar, that's, that's how I describe belonging. It's a, it's a place where everyone knows your name. You've got your, your, your mug behind the counter, you've got your chair, you've got all your friends around you. Every time you walk in there, it's just so comfortable that you, you desire you. And if they refurb that bar or change it or you'll swap your chair out, you're gonna go, it's not working for me anymore. So it's, it's really sweet spot we gotta try and find for people. And I guess when you're, you know, you talk about learning and development, when we gotta really tailor what we do and how we develop things so that people do resonate with that, the content or the topic or even the vibe and what you're trying to provide. So what techniques do you find most insightful? I guess when you're trying to find that sweet spot. So a lot of it is, you know, you Amanda Van Der Heiden: start this in school and people dictate what your curriculum is, they dictate what you need to do. Maybe they talk about the why, maybe they don't. But I find especially with adult learning and even earlier, I think we should, the school should incorporate this too. But especially with companies, a lot of times they have, they have their mandates, they have to there's certain compliance trainings that have to happen, right, for. To make sure you're on the up and up. For the most part. What you want to do is spark that curiosity and make sure people understand what, what's in it for them. They need to be driving it, they need to be involved in it, not it happening to them, but really them wanting to involve. And in the world we're living in, it's not an option anymore. I'm a lifelong learner. Some of the, the, the greats really are because they want to continue to improve themselves and that's wonderful. The world we're living in now, there's no choice. You have to continue to learn and adapt because of the pace of everything moving. We talked a little bit about technology before we signed in and, you know, it's, it's critical now more than ever, but it's people understanding what's in it for them and also having autonomy in what they get to do and how they get to do it. So it's, it's them being able to say, hey, you know, I'd rather have a conversation with a person and that's how I'm going to learn the best, or I'm going to get the most out of it. Where someone else might want to read the entire manual first and then take a test, right? So there's so many different types of learning styles and individual things. So I think with organisations, the best you can do is really get that what's in it for them, so they really understand what they're gaining from it, but then give them some autonomy of how they're consuming it, how they're leveraging it? And the challenge and the fun part becomes how do you create something that's individual enough that it's really going to resonate with the person, but standard enough that you have an organisation of people understanding and the same words mean the same things and how to do processes in a certain way. So it's that, it's that fine line you have to walk between giving them their individuality and authenticity and, you know, their autonomy, but also weaving through the culture and the collective. How do we move together? You Joanne Lockwood: mentioned the what's in it for me, the wifm, I call it the, you know, it's your product developers, designers, you're always focusing on trying to be person centric, so you're developing for somebody. And whenever I develop solutions, I'm always thinking, thinking in the audience, what's in it for me? Why should I carry on? Why should I invest my time in you. And then that's, I guess, part of the mechanism to resonate with what's going on. But you also mentioned that we're living in this world now where people are polarised. There's a lot of political discourse going on, there's war zones around the world. It feels a very unstable world today than it did five years ago. There's a lot more negative discourse and real challenging conversations going on amongst people who are completely polarising around beliefs. That's a really difficult thing to try and bring into the workplace or even into society. How do we create room for those conversations, allow free speech, but also create boundaries. Amanda Van Der Heiden: I get this question a lot in a different kind of context of like, how can people be authentic? And it's a very similar thing is, you know, I talk about being who you are, truly. However, you also have to realise you're with people, you're with people, other groups of people and working with different types of people who may have varying beliefs. And so a lot of people say, well, I'm just being authentic, I'm just being real, I'm just being me. And that's fine. But what you need to be able to do, and you know what more advanced people can do, is instead of just being the, this is, this is the raw me and this is how I'm going to be all the time. You have to realise that how you show up in the world is going to impact other people and influence other people. And so what I try to be is I always try to be authentically myself. Obviously I am who I am. However, there's a way that I can be true to myself but also be respectful of somebody else. So for example, I am absolutely an extrovert. You can probably tell for any of those watching, I'm moving around in my chair, I'm talking with my hands. It's also a New York thing. However, I know that when I'm in front of a bunch of technical people, engineers and against the stereotype, but it's tends to be a little bit true. You know, they want much more. They don't want the information as big and as colourful, they want the data, they want the facts. And so it's knowing your audience, it's knowing who you're speaking to. And when I say audience, I don't necessarily mean like a true audience. All it might be, but it's more of like if you're in a meeting with 10 people or if you're having a one on one conversation with a person, right, Understanding their preference their communication styles because I know that's going to get the most. I am who I am. However, I know that I can be overwhelming to some people in my true state, or quote unquote true state. And so I know how to truly be me, but also adapt to give them the space of what they need to be successful too. And that's really, that's really where you want to be. Is that being true to who you are and showing up, but ensuring that you're also being the best you can be for others around you. Because again, that's how you come together, that's how you bring people together. Instead of this divisive this way or that way, it's, this is how I am. I am an extrovert. I do talk of my hands, but I realised that, that and especially when people say, well, I don't want to change who I am, you know, just because I'm around certain people or whatever the case may be. But the truth is, is what all people want, including yourself, is to be heard and understood. So if your goal, your real goal is to communicate effectively so you're conveying your message to somebody else, then you do want to take note of this. Because if you're waving your hands and talking really loud and fast, they're not going to receive the message you're trying to deliver. So if you still be you and still give the message, but do it in a way where they can actually hear you and actually understand what you're trying to gain, then you start to have common ground and understanding. So you're truly being yourself, but you're doing it in a way that the other person can receive the information and that's, it's a hard line to walk. But that's what I try to explain to people is that that's, you know, people think, well, I'm just going to be me and if people don't like it, they can just shove off. Right? But you're missing out because you're not making the connection. You're not able to put people first and understand, okay, well how can we come together and have a thoughtful, respectful conversation or whatever the case may be? Yeah, the best conversations are Joanne Lockwood: where both parties put the effort in to communicate and be able to listen and speak in a way that the other party is going to understand. And it always reminds me, I don't dunno how old you are, but I remember dial up Internet, you know, the AOL, the CompuServe days of the 90s and your modem used to Make a screeching noise and it all this kind of really buzzing noise and then the other one would kick in and he'd screech back and then this modem would screech and the other modem would screech. Eventually you'd go, eh, ee, oh ee, aw. And then it would connect. And that bit there when they're making that eeyore noise is where the, that's where they're communicating, how fast they can speak, what the error correction is, all those other things. So those two modems had to negotiate the protocol that they could speak in and then they could, once they negotiated the protocol they could then speak. So I always think that as humans we need to that e awe eat or eat or bit at the beginning so we understand what our styles are. And you know, you're waving your hands around a bit too much, it's freaking me out. I'll move my hands down. I also have to recognise that you are going to move your hands and you communicate better that way. And I have to sort of adapt my style as well. And then at the end of that, hopefully we can then communicate without swiping off and going, oh no, I can't handle this anymore. Yeah, move on to the next TikTok. That's the emotional intelligence in this, isn't it? We're trying to really put ourselves in a place where we communicate effectively. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Absolutely. And one of the things I always like to remind people of is, you know, especially from psychology, it's people judge other people based off of their actions, but they judge themselves based off their intentions. So for example, if I'm late to something, right, I'm like, oh, you know, oh, I had a crazy day and I'm not usually late. I don't see myself as a late person, but I was, there was traffic and I was rushing around. But when you're the person, when someone else walks in the room late, you're like, oh, they don't. They disrespect me my time. They're not showing up, they're not. And so it's, it's an important reminder that cheque your perspective because a lot of times you're judging other people based off of what you're physically seeing, like a one instance thing. And you judge yourself based off of your own intentions. And so if we can even take a step forward, forward to kind of bridge the gap, if you are, we're going to do better with our communications and our connections. Yeah, that was. Reminds me of HR Joanne Lockwood: people. They're quick to judge, you know, when someone's late in, or we put you on a warning, you know, we've made a note of that. What we should be doing is checking in with people. So working out where they're at, what's going on in your life. Not do you know you're late. It's like, how are you doing today? Is everything okay? You know, you've had, is your home life okay? What's going on? You go, I missed the bus and I, I, I had to drop my child off at the care and they weren't there for me. The person cancelled on me and it started raining. I didn't have an umbrella and it's like, oh, I've just got in. Oh, God, I'm soaking wet. You go, I get it. It's one of those things. It's not a deliberate act. You weren't being lazy, you weren't being careless. So we need to be quicker to ask people where they're at, what's going on, what's going on in their life. Show an interest in somebody and not just judge them. And I think that's really, really important. As I say, a lot of companies, a lot of HR people straight to disciplinary, rather than meeting people where they're. Amanda Van Der Heiden: At, seek to understand first, for sure. And also a lot of times I'm reminding senior leaders, like, why are we doing this? Why do they have to be in at 8am, right? Or why do they have to be in XYZ? Like, what is this accomplishing? And what we found is that, you know, we're working off of outdated models here and we saw this when, you know, when Covid hit and with hybrid work, we saw all of this where people didn't have a choice, they had to kind of show up with where they're at. But, you know, so many organisations and the best organisations took note of that and said, well, I can have someone sit in a desk for eight hours or I can figure out what's going to set them up for success. Because ultimately, if your people are set up for success, not only are you going to get better output, but you're also going to have a company that's thriving because the people are thriving. And I remind people all the time, there's no such thing as an organisation, it's a collection of people. So if you, if you want your organisation to do well, you want your people to do well. If your people are doing well, your organisation will do well. It's, it's math, it's, it's been shown Study, study, study after study is shown that the more people set up for. Are set for success, the more better the profit margins. The like, everything falls into place. When you really, truly put people first, you see unbelievable results. And I think people lose sight of that. And that's the most. That's one of the biggest things I'm constantly reminding people, because a lot of times I'm brought into organisation during a time of change, whether it's like a system implementation, we're rolling out AI, or we're doing a culture transformation or we're doing some big initiative. Right. So that's usually when people bring me in to help bring everyone together and get the results that they're looking to get. And so I have to remind people that it's a lot when people go through change, when human beings go through change, there is a process that needs to be followed and you might not think, oh, I don't want people to get emotional about this. It's just, we're, we're just changing this one thing. Sure. But people might not see it that way. Right. So some people are going to be your early adapters and jump right on the change wagon. Right. But some are going to be a little bit slower. And again, it's that if you can set your people up for success, your business will see the results of that 1000% of the time it's come. It's bringing that awareness and understanding into. And that's kind of a piece of the. Organising the chaos too, is like understanding what people need to be successful, setting them up for success and supporting them throughout. I'm pleased you mentioned the chaos of COVID and how Joanne Lockwood: we had to adapt really, really quickly and, you know, the focusing on people, wellbeing, all these strategies. But what seems to have happened in the last 18 months is we seem to have got amnesia. All the things we learned about valuing our people, looking after our people, motivating our people, caring deeply and then they believed us with authenticity. We flushed that down the toilet. We see all these organisations rolling it all back now, back to work policies, commuting, environmental hits, whatever it may be. What's going on? Amanda Van Der Heiden: The pendulum swings. So in education and politics, they always say that you go one extreme and then you flip back to the other extreme. Instead of learning from both sides and coming to a better middle. It's, it's, it's a. It's typical. When you look through history like it. Constantly streams, Joanne Lockwood: is it politically motivated or power motivated? Do you think that? Amanda Van Der Heiden: So one of the first things that came about with the COVID night with COVID and people having to work from home and all this stuff is all of a sudden they're like, oh, there's communication issues, there's leadership issues. I was like, that's always been there. The difference is the best leaders, the best communicators, pre Covid knew they have to do it. There's an effort that goes into it, there's strategy that goes into making sure people are heard and you're setting things up and there's success in that. Right? But the people who are the water cooler managers, where they see you in the hallway or they look over your shoulder or the micromanagers and they really had a extra hard time when people weren't physically there and they couldn't rely on those like we'll say lazy tactics but those in the moment tactics. Now I'm a people person. I miss people. Like I love. I was eight years working from home pre Covid so I was doing a lot of workshops at that time to set people up for success of how do you work from home successfully and how do you lead people when they're working from home and all these things. And you have to. The name of the game is intention intentional. And so a lot of times companies will say, well we want the culture and we want to bring people back into the office. And I get it, I missed people too when we were in our little bubble. But again, you have a, a huge background of people, a very diverse, varied group. How do you set them up for success? So somebody who really enjoys their time in the office, you know, that's great. There's other people who are going to do so much better work not in the office. And so the best organisations are figuring out a way to adapt to make their people as successful as they can be. And so, you know, some of them, I know like I've heard from other organisations that are doing it, some of my clients are doing mandatory return to the office and you know, they have an idea of they want everyone together and the answer is, you know, if that's, if that's the priority, well then people are going to either self select out of that because of the world that they know or you know, or you're not going to get your the most and the best out of, out of all of your population. And that's the answer on question. And that's the reality, isn't it? Joanne Lockwood: It's often dictated by the style or thinking of the leaders, senior leaders or middle management. And the group think Kicks in, said, oh no, we can never succeed unless people have, as you say, have those watercooler conversations. And I used to say back in, you know, back in post Covid days, it was what we need to do is we need to find a way of engaging with people on a person centric way. So you said you're an extrovert, you thrive around people. And we tend to find a lot of our leaders tend to be, well, extrovert, passing. Whether they are truly extrovert, we don't know. But there's this belief you have to be loud and shouty and omnipresent to be successful. And we need to celebrate the passive, the introvert, the people who just want to quietly get on. I'm a high functioning introvert, I don't mind being extrovert when I need to be. I love working from home, I love sitting in my office here, I love chatting to people online. I don't need to thrive, I develop my own culture in my own home. I don't need your culture in the office. That's what we've been losing now. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, and you need all types. And so a lot of times one of the models I work with is disc but there's all these different personality type models and really at the end of the day what it is is all types. People say, well, which is the best type? There is no best type. Everyone adds value and that's the whole point and that's the leader's job really is to be how can I make all these people successful? How can I get the best work out of all of them? And that is to set them up where they feel the best, they do the best work. And again, there's not one style that's better. Don't believe the hype. If someone says there's a better type, there's not because we all have different strengths and, and so why don't we leverage our strengths instead of trying to focus on, you know, this weakness or that weakness or what, you know, people are quick to go into like improvement, like fix this, do that, fix that. But if we can leverage people's strengths and really let them truly be in their strength, you're gonna see the best results because it's complimentary. You need all, all the different types and roles in order for it to succeed. Because again, study after study has shown and the results are proof. In the pudding, right, is that the organisations that have more diverse thinking. You talked about groupthink earlier, but if you have more diverse, if you are, you need to be at least as diverse as your client base from an organisation perspective. So the more diverse thoughts and viewpoints and backgrounds and training that you have, the better the end product or end result is going to be. And the companies that do that, that incorporate that have seen time and time again that improve their profit margins, improve their sales because you have more different ideas saying like hey this might work for this type of person but it's not going to work for that. So how do we make sure to think through that and think of different perspectives? Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. And Joanne Lockwood: I just wish other people would hear that. And that's the frustration. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, well they're hearing it now from us and I'm constantly talking to leaders about it. So it's a daily conversation. I remember pre Covid Joanne Lockwood: that's going back a bit these days. Pre Covid it boiled down to trust. If I can't see you, I can't trust you. It's the policing, people wanting a policy. It's. I remember being people being said that they hadn't earned enough good boy or good girl credits in order to work from home yet they needed to be a more senior in their role or they must have worked at least six months before they were allowed to work from home. Because I need to make sure that I can trust you to do that. And I think over Covid it must have, it must have really. People must have really struggled with that twitchy that I about being seen and I think people just jumped in that bandwagon. I also wonder if some of it is political that what happens many city, downtown environments, cafes, transport links, all these sort of value add services that support businesses. We're going out of business again, bust employment issues. It's almost like we need to get people in the office because we've got people to service and support them in the office. And certainly in London, the metro, the underground in London was running at a huge loss because people just weren't in London anymore. I do wonder if some of it was politically motivated and to. To get the money back into those capitals. Otherwise they've just become wastelands. Yeah. In New York City they talked about real estate, like why Amanda Van Der Heiden: are we paying for all this real estate? But that's backwards thinking. So if you. So when, when companies, when leaders would tell me this, well, I really want people back in the office. Is that okay, great, make them want to be back in the office. What are you going to do for them for them to want to be back and have that engagement or for the, you know, Manhattan real estate people, they were saying like, well, okay, but there's other ways that you could save money if you give up your lease or sell your building or whatever. So there's always a way, but at the end of it, it's remembering why are we doing this and how are we setting people up for success? Because that's really what the critical thing is. And so when you hear that noise and it's just like an individual person, right, we have all these things competing for our attention and our time and our energy. And so if you really get clear on your why, on your priorities, then it's like, okay, that's a symptom of, that's not the root, that's not the real reason, right? So a lot of times people operate on like surface things when really if you just dig a little bit deeper, you realise that there's, it's actually a different thing than you think it is. I like to do the why exercise. So if you, if you ask a question to yourself, to a leader and you say, okay, here's, here's what we're going to do, we're going to do this initiative, okay, why? What do you hope to gain from it? You know, even goal setting, right? So a lot of people like to set goals. I love it. But why are you setting the goal, right? And so if you ask five whys, so if you say, okay, well, why this goal or why this initiative? What do you hope to gain from this? And they answer it and then you ask it again and again and again, you'd be shocked at the real reason you get to, or the deeper level meaning. And so a lot of times people are solving for things, they're solving for the wrong problem. And so I always like to take like a step back and say, okay, but let's actually analyse this why this initiative, why this goal? And then, and then you can reverse engineer what the real problem is so you can do a proper solve for it instead of a knee jerk reaction. And the interesting thing Joanne Lockwood: is when you ask that why question maybe one or two levels down, the person says, I don't know, right? I really don't know why actually, because we've always done it that way or because that's the way I believe we should be acting, but I don't know why we should be doing that. And you see it in politics all the time. You think, well, why are we doing that? And you think you're just doing it because it's politics. There's not Actually a logic to it. You're just trying to win or something, or trying to achieve something. Yeah. It's important to understand Amanda Van Der Heiden: the real reason. And when you do, when you have those thoughtful conversations or exercises, you realise, oh, wow, there is definitely a better way to solve for this. So it's interesting. People like to jump into fixing or solving, but if you just ask a few extra questions and you get to a deeper circle, back to deeper understanding and really, truly understanding what a person or a group or whatever is saying, an organisation is saying, then it becomes so much more clear on what needs to be to actually happen and what's actually going to move you forward and make you better. One of the Joanne Lockwood: frustrating things I found when I used to work for people was the leader would always keep back pieces of the jigsaw. So you never saw the full picture and almost said the leader had the power or the control to say, actually, I'm the only one who knows the whole storey. I want you to keep working on this. There was a number of occasions where if only that little bit of extra information had been shared, I'd be. And I had the whole picture, I would have able to be under. Better understanding what the end goal was, rather than getting towards the end goal and said, no, no, that's not what we're after. What are you after? Well, we needed to have five wheels, not four wheels. Why do you want that? Well, that's part of the design criteria. You didn't tell me that. Oh, I know. It doesn't matter. You've got. We want you to do that. So I think, again, leadership comes down to trust and listening and sharing and being open and that's where we often make our mistakes. Yeah. And you would have been more motivated, probably. Amanda Van Der Heiden: And so that's why the best leaders do communicate that they do have that transparency, because they know that if you're understanding the reason behind something, you're going to be more on board with it. You're going to be more likely to actually contribute successfully. Yeah, no, I Joanne Lockwood: agree. I mean, we just need to fix the world, don't we? We need to. We need to take, take this and get every leader to think about it. But I've talked to many leaders on this podcast and everyone I talk to, maybe it's just I'm. I'm lucky. But everyone has this kind of same, same mantras. Yeah. Everyone gets it. Are we the only unique people? But surely everyone believes that they get it. Why aren't we doing something with it? Is it just culture? I think People don't realise how much influence they actually do have Amanda Van Der Heiden: and so they feel like, oh, this is overwhelming. And especially like the types of organisations I work with, you're talking thousands and thousands and thousands of people from different countries. And it does. When you look at it, it looks like a Herculean task, like how. How am I going to change culture in an entire organisation of 10,000 people by. With one person? The answer is you don't, but you do. But once you start, you create momentum, you create the conversation, you create that open mindset and then you start to gain momentum and that's how you. That's how all change happens. Actually, I have a favourite book that I love, like the Power Of Habit by Charles Duhig. Definitely cheque it out if you don't know it. But it's such a fun book because it talks about how does an individual change, how does an organisation change and how does society change? And it's so. But simple is not easy and that's what people mix up sometimes. It's. It's not easy, but it is simple. It's getting to the root, understanding, figuring out the pattern and finding a solve for it. And so it seems overly simplistic, but again, simple is not easy. It's. It. But it's, you know, it's about having those conversations and keeping it going. Would you mind me go back Joanne Lockwood: to a bit of your own. You said earlier on, when we were chatting around this, you brought up in these two different locations to polar opposite. You're kind of lost in the middle there somewhere. And now you're working in a global organisation, across time zones, across countries, across sectors and industry. So you're constantly in this state of flux and having to mould and adapt to different situations. That itself must be quite stressful. How do you cope with that? Actually, I love it. It's Amanda Van Der Heiden: so interesting. What I love about what I do is I get to work with all different types of people from all different backgrounds, from all different perspectives. And that's the fun. I don't have two days that are the same ever, ever. And so that is what keeps me going because it's so fascinating and interesting and you learn, just naturally learn so much because you have to. And you have to kind of have that mindset to go with it, you know, to really, like, embrace it and figure out where this is coming from and seek to understand, like we talked about. And so it's not stressful for me. It's, it's, it's. It's more like Some people say stress, some people say adrenaline. Like, you get adrenaline from that. And it's all. It's all about mindset and perspective, right? So you can be in a situation, be like, oh, I'm on deadline, I'm really stressed out right now. Or you'd be like, ooh, I have a deadline and this is gonna fuel me, you know, and so people don't realise how much control they have over their life. And really, it starts. And I talk a lot about this is mindset and perspective. So you can take any situation and flip it in the sense of understanding. If you're feeling really negative about something, if you're feeling really challenged by something or overwhelmed by something, flip it and just say, okay, well, what if this is, you know, teaching me something? What if this is opening up my eyes to something? What if. And when you take that, you take back control. So even when you're. We talked about earlier, in an uncontrollable environment or an environment that's out of your own control, it's cliche, but it's cliche for a reason. You can control yourself in the way that you look at the situation. And that's really the difference between the people who are successful and the people who just sit down and give up. Is there a default Joanne Lockwood: Amanda under all of those hats? Is there a person that. When you're not being driven to achieve or you're not being on the receiving end of a demand, what is Amanda's natural state? Where are you in there? So it's. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Well, always. So I love continuous improvement. I really do. But I would say that the. The deep hack for the people listening is you have to know yourself and you have to be conscious and aware of your thought processes. And that's really the biggest hack of all. Because if you can be conscious to it, a lot of people, you know, we think. And that's. Again, I talked about the power of habit. But when you. A lot of people think that they're making choices every day, but they're not. If you look at people's patterns, it's. It's pattern. If you look at what people do every day, they think they're making a choice, but they're not actually making a choice. And so the first step is like realising what it is that you're doing. And then the second thing is really to take action on it and do something about it, right? So if you're sick of this or you're sick of that or you want to change something, you know, people have a lot of ideas, but they don't do the follow through. So for me it's like the awareness piece. Then it's the, the next step is, okay, well what am I going to do about it? And you need both. You can't just. A lot of people are unaware so it is very important for them to become conscious of it. But once they're aware, a lot of people say, well, that's just who I am, that's just what I do. But it's that, okay, what are you going to do about it? Like, you can make it better. And again, it starts with mindset. And you know, people talk about like, oh, I'm just going to wish to win the lottery. And it's like, okay, well that's not actually accomplishing anything. Right? And back to our earlier point, why do you want to win the lottery? Do you actually need to win the lottery to fulfil what you're trying to fulfil? And so that's the two part breakdown of like overall across people, across all the things I've worked on. It's if you're aware of what you're doing, if you're at your actions and your mindset and then you can take it and put action behind it, like intention, you're golden. You'll be able to do whatever you set your mind to because of that. And that's what I would recommend to everybody, is to just to notice, to be aware of how you're framing a situation. You know, people like. Even a slight shift in wording can significantly impact your behaviour. If you start recognising it, you can break any pattern or you can build any amazing pattern. So I always think Joanne Lockwood: about the lottery. I don't buy lottery tickets to win the lottery per se. I buy a lottery ticket or hope for dreams because if I never buy a lottery ticket, how can I ever say if I won the lottery I would or I'd love to buy that when I win the lottery, if I never enter, I lose all those aspirations, all those dreams or that hope or the conversations you have with your partner. Oh, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could do this? We can dream about that. The lottery is more about hope than it ever is around winning. And I think that's the power of those sort of things. Okay, we've got to be careful it doesn't become dangerous. And the gambling and you know, it becomes a, you become driven by that hope and aspiration. But yeah, it's about hope, it's about dreams, I think. Yeah, it's all about that. I think that comes down to what we talked about earlier. The belongingness, the need to, need to feel part of connection, our safe zone, whatever it may be, whether it's our shut the front door and have a quiet weekend and know what it's going to be. But yeah, when we think about our leaders, our managers, our teams, what can they, what can they do? Because you talked about that effectively, I would talk about from an eq, an emotional intelligence point of view is the first is self awareness, self management, recognising other people's communication style and then be able to, then be able to negotiate and build stronger relationships. So how can people who are listening to this now take some action from this? Amanda Van Der Heiden: Yeah, so I love it. And some of the best leadership courses we've designed over the years is first understand yourself. You need to be able to lead yourself, understand yourself, know yourself, lead yourself. Then you can understand, know others, lead others. And then you can. It goes individual, then it goes person and then it goes teams and organisations. Right. And so what I would say today, this is an action for you today is pay conscious attention about the wording you're using, the way you're approaching things. Do you, do you have, how are you showing up? Record it. So a lot of companies will say my people need time management. It's not normally a time management issue. It's usually a communication issue, a leadership issue or a vision issue. And so if you track this for a few days, you'll start to see certain trends. And then if you take the action of saying this is what I'm going to focus on, you're going to see improvement. But I'm a big believer in tracking everything because what gets, what gets measured gets managed. Right. So again, it's consciously today, think about how you're reacting to people, think about the thoughts in your head, think about the actions you do, the choices you're making and you would be shocked once you, once you put a couple of days into this, you'll start to see certain trends and say, okay, what do I want to do with it? What do I want to focus on? And then actually put action in it. So reverse engineer figure out, okay, this is what I'm going to do differently. So for example, I, I have two children. My, one of, my daughter, my oldest. I never said the word no to, they're like, you don't say no to your 2 year old. Is it no? I don't say the word no. I tell her what to do, what not to do. If I told her what not to do. That's the first thing she would do and it would become a big fight. So when she was two years old, I would literally focus on what's the inverse saying, don't do that. Instead of saying, don't do that, I'm saying, here's where you should focus. Right. And just that small tweak, it's, it's, it seems simple. Again, bull's not easy. So you focus on it and you realise you get so, so much better just by being aware of the wording you're using, the way your thoughts are processing certain things. When you reframe it and you start to in some muscle, like anything else, you have to practise, practise, practise. But yeah, so that's a specific example that I do. I constantly try to flip my language so that it's a positive instead of a negative because it yields better results. And so it seems simple, but you don't realise how much, so much you're saying phrases in a negative instead of a positive. And so that's what I would challenge everyone to do is be aware, take action. So deflect and distract. Joanne Lockwood: Not know. For 2 year olds, yes. And sometimes for 42 year olds too. Amanda Van Der Heiden: But it's, yeah, be aware, action behind. It and personal accountability. You have the Joanne Lockwood: power in you, you have to want to. Yeah, Amanda Van Der Heiden: absolutely. And ask yourself why a lot and then ask it Joanne Lockwood: again and keep going until you actually figure out what it is. And if you don't know why, then stop and replan. Imagine. Just be fascinating and chat to you. We could, we could carry on. We've been naturally away before we went online. How could people get a hold of you? Amanda Van Der Heiden: So I have a giveaway for everyone. I love organising the cast and I've spent the last two decades helping thousands of people from all over the world and I wanted to give you actionable templates that you can use today. So go to www.gtdscorp.com giveaway and you get a free giveaway. My gift to you. And I'm excited to hear how you leverage them to organise your chaos. Joanne Lockwood: I'll make sure I put that in the show notes so you can search that down. And of course you're on LinkedIn as well, is that right? Yes, of course. Amanda Van Der Heiden: Always happy to connect with everyone and hear their questions or thoughts. That's Joanne Lockwood: Amanda Van Der Heiden. H E I D E N. Very Dutch sounding name from a person who was raised in Kentucky, lived in New York and now is in Rhode Island. So, yeah, and there's chaos in there somewhere, obviously. Always. So, Amanda, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure and good luck with trying to solve that chaos. Thank you so much. Have a great day, everyone. Bye. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest joy, gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world, one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.