--- title: "Love In Motion" episode: 194 date: 2026-01-30 guest: "Denise Cesare" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/194-love-in-motion audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-194/audio.mp3 --- # Love In Motion Joanne Lockwood is joined by speech-language pathologist, author, and inclusive fashion founder Denise Cesare for a wide-ranging conversation about self-love, resilience, and what it means to be seen and heard when your voice and body don’t match social expectations. Denise describes living with spasmodic dysphonia after a car accident, the impact of years without a reliable speaking voice, and what it took to advocate for herself in medical settings and at work. From that difficult period, she explains how her creative energy became a route back to confidence and connection, ultimately leading to the creation of T Suit: swimmable, versatile garments designed to help people feel comfortable and empowered in and out of the water. The discussion broadens into body image and the damage caused by size-based fashion norms, the lasting mental-health effects of COVID-era isolation (especially for young people), and why mindfulness is a practice rather than a slogan. Throughout, Denise and Joanne return to a consistent message: resilience grows when self-worth is protected, community is nurtured, and compassion becomes practical action in everyday life. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:40 — Inclusion Bites: Sparking Change - 10:39 — Finding Empowerment After Loss - 12:22 — Praying for Guidance, Writing Miraculously - 17:06 — Speech Pathologist's Unique Insight - 21:48 — Creating Confidence Through Design - 31:49 — Reflecting on Loss and Covid - 35:17 — We the People Forgotten - 43:00 — Shaping Minds Through Early Arts - 48:28 — Finding Resilience in Darkness - 51:54 — Understanding Pain and Healing - 59:13 — Denise Cesare Book Details - 01:01:35 — Being Lovable is Within You ## Key takeaways - Strategies for transforming adversity into creativity and social impact within communities and classrooms. - Unlocking mindfulness as a daily practice and the importance of presence in mental wellbeing. - Rethinking body image, fashion inclusivity, and how apparel can empower confidence beyond conventional sizing paradigms. - Navigating the barriers to disability acceptance, diagnosis, and self-advocacy amidst systemic and societal challenges. - The ongoing impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on youth and adult mental health, resilience, and adaptation. - Addressing generational struggles with anxiety, coping mechanisms, and the consequences of limited formative support. - Actionable ways to foster self-worth, healing, and a culture of collaboration—through mantras, community, and reframing moments of darkness towards empowerment. ## FAQs ### Who is Denise Cesare and what is her background? Denise Cesare is a published author, keynote speaker, and social emotional learning specialist. Her work champions disability rights, mental health, and body positivity. Drawing on personal experience with spasmodic dysphonia—a neurological voice disorder—she's an advocate for inclusive fashion and well-being. Her journey into creativity emerged from lived experiences of disability and self-acceptance. --- ### What is spasmodic dysphonia and how did it impact Denise’s life? Spasmodic dysphonia is a neurological condition causing involuntary spasms in the vocal folds, leading to voice disruption and difficulty speaking. Denise Cesare, herself a speech language pathologist, lost her voice for several years as a result. This period not only presented personal and professional challenges but also awakened new avenues of creativity and resilience. Ultimately, Denise found a measure of relief through Botox injections, enabling her to reclaim her voice and amplify her advocacy. --- ### How did Denise’s personal experience lead to the creation of T Suit? During her silent years, Denise Cesare noticed a lack of inclusive swimwear, especially for those seeking comfort and body confidence. Frustrated by impractical solutions like wearing t-shirts in the water, she invented the T Suit—a swimmable cover-up designed to fit every body, not just a prescribed size. Her mantra is “you’re not a size, you’re a fit”, reflecting the principle that fashion should serve all bodies, not just those modelled in mainstream media. --- ### What is the philosophy behind T Suit and inclusive fashion? T Suit was created to help people feel comfortable and confident at the pool or seaside, whatever their body shape, size, or preference. Denise Cesare challenges the fashion industry’s narrow standards by designing garments that enhance rather than conceal. The intention is to promote joy, inclusion, and self-love, so individuals are free to enjoy themselves without self-consciousness or societal pressure. --- ### How did the COVID-19 pandemic influence Denise’s work and writing? The isolation and mental health pressures brought on by COVID-19 inspired Denise Cesare to write “Moments in Motion with Love”—a children’s book focused on mindfulness, resilience, and healing. The book emerged from her desire to bridge the disconnect she witnessed in her students during remote learning, nurturing social emotional growth in a time of profound uncertainty. --- ### What is “Moments in Motion with Love” about? This book centres on mindfulness, emotional intelligence, and self-compassion for children and adults alike. It not only delivers poetic affirmations but also encourages readers to practise being present, loving themselves and others. The aim is to heal the inner child, build resilience, and foster positive coping mechanisms amid adversity. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 194 with the title Love In Motion. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Denise Cesare. Denise is a published author, a keynote speaker and social emotional learning specialist who champions disability rights, mental health and body positivity. She brings her lived experience of spasmodic dysphonia and inclusive fashion to T suite. T suit. Actually, we got that wrong in the green room as well. T suit. There's no E on the end to inspire change. And when I asked Denise to describe her superpower, she said it is turning compassion into practical, inclusive actions across classrooms, communities and fashion. Hello, Denise. Welcome to the show. I am so happy to be here on Inclusion Denise Cesare: Bites and I am so happy to be in this moment with you today. Isn't that funny how I. In the green room, I was reading through those Joanne Lockwood: show notes and I said, t sweet. He said, oh, well, the second person to say t sweet is actually T suit. And I did the same mistake when I was reading it out. It's something how my brain just couldn't process that, could it? Because I'm so sweet. So sweet. You are. Yes, you are. To a T. Sweet. To a T. And also your name, because it's Caesar, but you were saying in the green room that it's Italian root, so it was probably historically Cesare. Exactly. Cesare. Is the Denise Cesare: pronunciation Italian? Yeah. So Joanne Lockwood: I was musing whether it was actually Julius Caesar. It was actually Julius Cesare, and probably Julius isn't even pronounced correctly. So hail Caesare. Right? Yes, Hail Caesare. Denise Cesare: Yeah, exactly. But Caesar, you know, even on a menu in a restaurant, if you say. Or Caesare salad, it's a Joanne Lockwood: fire. It is. But people say Caesar, right? Because that's what the brain Denise Cesare: knows in the American version of it. If it's a real Italian restaurant, they'll spell it the way my name is spelled. The way that it's named, yeah. So your name is spelled C E S A R Joanne Lockwood: E. So that's the Italian spelling. Exactly. So how did you get the name? So, you know, you get Denise Cesare: married, right? You take a name and my husband, his identity. Right. That's his name, his father. You know, I. I gather, you know, you come to America from Italy and then they Americanize it so it's Caesar. So when I met him, as being his speech pathologist, I'm like, oh, no, Cesare. But, you know, you have to keep. He grew up like that. That's what people call him. And I have a son. I can't change the name. It's like a brand. You can't change it. You can't do that. Joanne Lockwood: It's a very old Italian name, isn't it? So, yeah, be proud of it, I guess. And Caesar. Hail Caesar. Maybe he. He changed it, Denise Cesare: right? He changed it. Maybe, maybe, maybe. We don't know. We don't know. He may have gone to America for his holidays and while he Joanne Lockwood: was there, he changed his name and came back and planted Europe. Denise Cesare: Exactly. We don't know. But maybe we should investigate that way. I don't know. We have something to search about. Yeah. Thousand years before Columbus, we Joanne Lockwood: had Julius Caesar. Popped over, made a few pizzas, left some salad. But now I'm getting hungry, Denise Cesare: like, oh, yeah, now we have to go. Now we go. Have to go meet for a meal. Excited. So your accent sounds like New York, Joanne Lockwood: but you're not living in New York anymore. That's true. I grew up in Brooklyn, Denise Cesare: New York. I moved to Staten Island, New York, after that when I got married and had my son. And now four months ago, I moved to Bluffton. Hilton Head, Staten Island. Oh, Staten Island. Oh, that was a. That was a blunder. I moved to Bluffton Hilton Head, S.C. south Carolina. Joanne Lockwood: I went to Staten island once. I was in New York with my. With my wife, and someone said to us, the Staten island ferry was free. So I thought, we've paid all that money to go to Statue of Liberty and other things. Let's go to Staten island and see what it's all about. So we got the Staten island ferry, got to the other end, got off, got back on it again, came home. But we had a bit of a free ride across the. Whatever that bit of water is at the time. I had a really bad cough, and it was about the time of SARS. I think it was in the. Probably the late 90s, I think it was. And every time I coughed, everybody around me moved out. The way they're all paranoid. I mean, it's like. Yeah. And you were outside on Denise Cesare: the ferry. Really? It was probably okay. You know, more of the air was. You weren't like, in. But it is tight. The ferry does get crowded. But we have a lot in common. Right. Who knew you. Who knew you rode the ferry? Right. I didn't know it said Staten Island, New York. But now I live in Seattle. So four months ago, I moved to a place that's coastal. And even Staten island is an island. So obviously I do love water. So that's. That's a segue that I love water. We'll get to that segue, right? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's not. Let's not hang on the preamble anymore. So you've had a. You've had a very busy life. You've written a book, Moments in Motion. Well, I think what it says here I've got in my notes. Journey spends losing and reclaiming your voice. Is that metaphorically or actually? That's. That's actually. That's actually losing voice. Okay. You've launched an inclusive swimwear brand. So how did this all come about? What wove this together? So it's Denise Cesare: interesting. Okay. I'm a speech language pathologist who lost her voice. So this is like a. This is a full circle moment. We will go, we will start to the losing of the voice. Being a speech pathologist, 2006, I was in a car accident and it triggered something for a condition called spasmodic dysphonia. I still don't have a voice. I have to get injections to speak, and my voice needs to be heard. I make the choice to have the injections. I am fortunate and they do work. So that's how that. That journey of the losing of the voice. So for five years, I had no voice. I didn't do Botox right away, so I had no voice. And in that, I'm gonna say it was a dark timing because we have to talk about darkness. Cause you can't see light without darkness. In that dark period, I created T shirt for everybody to a T because of being silent, you know, silent, not being able to really speak. I went into a different creative force in my brain. I didn't realise it at the time. You know, looking back, I know why. So I was. I love water. We just talked about bringing us Back to the water. We used to go to a swim club. I took my son at that time. He was 6 years old. He's now 25. I would go to the swim club, but I was always hiding myself. You know, putting a T shirt on over this swimsuit, but then going into the water and getting all wet and looking, not feeling good. It's just this heavy T shirt hanging on your body. Hence not being able to speak. But a lot of thoughts. I said, I have to do something. So then I used to wear something different and I created. I didn't realise at the time that was my prototype. I would put something on that would kind of make me look smoother and that puts something on top and people go, oh, where'd you get that? I'm like, oh, I don't know. I just put it together and then from there. I didn't create it first. I came up with the name first Fits everybody to a T. T suit because you're not a size, you're a fit. We are not sizes, we are humans. It's not a size. So that was born in my brain, just came to me. But, you know, making this makeshift thing to make myself feel better, not covering up, but putting something on that made me look good and good inside. And then, okay, so, you know, you go through a journey of having. Okay, so now I have this idea. What do I do? You know, I have this idea running around in my brain. But understand one part of me was going through a very heavy time at work in the world, trying to get along, recognising and coming to terms that I have a disability. All of these things. But then there's creative spin over here probably was lighting me up. So I kind of was balancing something. And then I came up with the name and I trademarked the name. Now this, you know, 2007, 8, 9. Those five years till 2011 without a voice. But T sued fits everybody to a T was not born. It wasn't really born into 2017. So it doesn't mean that you, you know, I was going, I was thinking, I was planning, but I didn't. I listened to my intuition. That's another thing we'll talk about. I listened to my intuition that it was something. So 2017 born. Hello, tea soup. It's everybody to a T. I create swimmable cover up. And it's not a cover up. I want to change that. I created a swimmable cover and a Pareto and different products to go with travel. So people, instead of putting on that wet T shirt they put on the T top. I call it the T top. And the tea dress is the little black dress up. Swim where you go into the water and you feel sexy. You're allowed to feel good, and you could go in and not hide. So that was my first feeling good about something that I created. And then I did get my. Got my voice back, back to Botox injections in 2011. So then I started to become more empowered because then I was able to, you know, when you lose your voice, it's detrimental. You know, I'm a talker, and it really was something that was a loss. But then I'm gonna take you to the 360 moment of my book. And I have written multiple books, but this. This book is a catalyst. Moments in Motion with Love was the tagline on T suit. I used to write that and put it on cards to customers. Moments in Motion with love, Denise, Because I felt like the motion and the water and your body and loving yourself. So that was my tagline for T2. Who would have thought that? And then, hence Covid 2020, being a speech language pathologist and having the disability, being with students and I having a disability. We were all put on lockdown and we had to work remotely with speech. Speech and language students. I was with them like we are right now. I mean, Covid brought about a lot of great things. You know, was heavy. A lot of heaviness happened and sadness and sickness, but there were really great things that came out of it, and that's what I want to talk about. So I was online with my students, and they were getting so disconnected. So lockdown, March, April, May. By May, I saw the disconnect in their eyes, and I saw very. A lot of sadness. So that night I went to sleep and I actually prayed, please help me help these students, because I really don't know what to do. I feel so disconnected from them myself, and they're getting lost, and we need to help them. At five o' clock in the morning, I woke up with a book. The book came out of me in my sleep. Some people might not believe me, but I have the proof because I woke up my husband. I said, wake up. I wrote a book. He goes, what are you doing now? You know, because I have him on this spiral of all these creative things. If you're not creative and someone's waking you up, nothing's that creative. You know what I'm saying? Creative brain just keeps going and going. I said, you have to listen. So I read it to him and, you know, I wasn't able to write it. I kind of spoke it. Luckily, we have these phones now. I spoke it into my phone and I read it to him and he goes, wait, read that again. And I read it again, and he goes, that's something. He just kept listening to me. I said, well, I have to do something. I was in the process of creating a prescriptive narrative for more what I thought in my mind, this is what I thought for adults, that I was gonna do that because of all the trauma and sadness and mental health issues that I went through. And I said, no, this. This is what has to happen right now. So the publisher, I called her, I said, you have to listen to this. This was like 7 o' clock in the morning. I'm bothering her. I said, we can't do the other book. This has to happen right now. And sure enough, she called me, the both of us. She's like, yes. Wasn't that. I don't even have to blink. Yes. But the real capture that captured me and the essence of why the book was so prevalent. My son was in college and they were all locked down too. And when I FaceTimed him, I said, oh, can you listen to this? You know, this just came through me. And I really. I read it. And he cried. Not from sadness. It released something. And it was like, yes, I only have this moment with love, and I have to hold onto it. And it was something. And I'm gonna cry now talking about it. Cause it always brings me back there because it was this full, unbelievable moment. So, yeah, so that's how I. Yeah, yeah. I've got so many questions to ask out Joanne Lockwood: of that. I mean, the. I suppose the thing is this spasmodic dysphonia, I mean, that. I've never heard of that before. But is it. Is it a physical or is it a psychological? Or is it a bit of both? Denise Cesare: So that's funny, but you know that there's so many people that have it. Some people don't know it. It's a neurological condition. My journey, I really had diagnosed myself because I went to doctors. They're going, like you just said, is it psychological? Is it. No. I knew I wasn't phonating. It was physiological because your vocal folds spasm. And that's why getting the injections of Botox paralyses them so that we speak on respiration. So when I would speak, when I didn't have it, they would. I would get choked and the voice could not come out. So, you know, I went through. I went Through a lot of trauma, trying to actually be diagnosed because. Oh, asthma. Yes, I have asthma. That. This is not asthma. Oh, as a reflux. Okay, you want to tell me. Oh, no, it's not that. And this whole journey trying to figure it out. But I'm going to tell you something else now that I did go to a doctor and that's why I didn't do Botox for five years, because you have to trust your instincts. And he was such a downer. He wasn't uplifting, saying, you know, you gotta keep moving, you gotta keep. Keep yourself motivated and you gotta keep working. No, he told me, oh, it's Omar gone disability. And I looked at him, I'm like, wow. He goes, yeah, you have a disability. I'm like, but I have. I went to no, no. Said no. But imagine doing that injection with someone who's so not proactive for me to be in the world. I shouldn't have to give up because I had a disability. So that's tip number one to the audience. Your gut, your instincts tell you something. Listen to them. So I didn't do the Botox and it was hard to not talk for five years. I can guess that of you. Yes, Joanne Lockwood: I can guess that you are a talker. Yes. So this is completely different to selective mutism, where. Yeah. People through anxiety or. Exactly, exactly. Yes, it's a totally. Denise Cesare: So, yes, I work with children who had selective mutism. It's a totally different. It's more of a behavioural, psychological thing. This is an actual physiological, neurological condition. And even, you know, the. I don't know if, you know, RFK Jr. Has this, the senator, he has it. And if you listen to him, that's what he has. He does not do. That's why his voice is. Yes, that's the condition. Sounds a bit strange. Yes, that is the condition he has. And he does not do the Botox. It doesn't work for anyone. Everyone either. So that's another side of it that, you know, I had the right doctor, I had the right knowledge, because being a speech pathologist, I was a patient and the professional. So I kind of had. I had more of an advantage for myself than others do because this happens to people all the time and they don't even know what's wrong with them. So I feel blessed by that, that I did. Was able to understand more. Joanne Lockwood: So when RFK speaks and you say he's not on the Botox, you can just about understand him. So were you able to speak in some way? It was just almost like Shouting through a straw sort of thing. Denise Cesare: So if you listen to his voice. My voice was worse than that, right? Yeah, my voice was more choked. He. He can kind of. He works on the phonation, I believe, because he can get the words out of his labour. That's laborious, but it's also. He has to take his time. Oh, yeah. So. But for me now, right now I'm in the middle of my Botox injection. As I laugh. You want to laugh. I say the many voices of Denise because when I start at the beginning of the Botox, I have this high pitched voice. Then I go. Then I go in the middle, like now and then it starts to get a little raspy and then it kind of slowly goes away. And then I'm. But it never goes away where you can hear me anymore. When this happened to me, it was devastating. You really. I was. You couldn't understand because I had to really. I was choking to talk almost. You could think about that. So, yeah, so if you think I had a terrible, unintelligible at times voice. So I had to fight to keep my job too, during that time. Because, you know, people don't. People don't advocate when you have a disability. They want to get rid. They want to hide you, they want to put you somewhere else. Well, they pick the wrong person to try to put somewhere else. Joanne Lockwood: So I guess now when the Botox is wearing off or in a better place mentally, to cope with it, you've probably adapted yourself so that you know what it is, you're no longer kind of held back by it. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Because, Denise Cesare: yeah, my void comes and goes and you take me as I am. Like I do podcasts all the time. There's the beginning of my bozak. The end. I'm in the middle for you. Yeah. So sometimes it Joanne Lockwood: sounds like you've been smoking stogies for the whole last night. Does it? I never Denise Cesare: did, but I guess if that's true, maybe that's how you sound. But what I'm trying to say is I come as I am because that's how you empower people. I'm not shying away from when it changes because it is what it is. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I mean, my voice Joanne Lockwood: is relatively deep. People, it confuses people. But I am what I am and yes, why should I worry about my voice for you? And it is what it is. That's right. You are who you are Denise Cesare: and we. Should not change for anyone and be Joanne Lockwood: proud of that. Yeah, I think that's Good. Yeah. Because no Denise Cesare: one's. No one's you, no one's me. We are unique. Joanne Lockwood: Glad of that. You're glad of that. Yeah. So I looked at your T suit website, and yeah. So the three products, the top, the dress, and the parade. Pareto. Is it Denise Cesare: Pareo? Yeah. Why did we as a Joanne Lockwood: society invent bikinis and skimpy. And skimpy things? You know, Australians, they wear shirts to cover up because of the, um. What's it called it? The light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The UV light and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Or protecting yourself from the UV rays. Denise Cesare: Right, yeah. But also to protect yourself from the gaze of people Joanne Lockwood: who. Yeah, but what I want to say about that. Okay. Denise Cesare: If I want to wear a bikini, great. But they create. Okay. So they. The fashion industry created these things for models, beautiful models. And there's nothing wrong with models, but the average human person is not a model. But we are looking at the model, right? And the model. We've got our little belly aprons going on and a little Joanne Lockwood: tummy. Tummy poking out and the flabby bits under our. Under our boobs is there. So my suggestion to the Denise Cesare: fashion industry and what I created way back when. Cause, you know, I wasn't. I wasn't. Not that I'm downing it. I was an educator. I wasn't in the fashion world. I was. I wasn't part of that world, but I became part of that world and got very educated even faster than I thought. And I'm proud of myself for creating things that no one else really thinks about. And what I did in the beginning, because, you don't know, I did put swimwear on there, but I carefully selected swimwear. I took it off now because I'm revamping everything, but I carefully selected certain swimwear companies that cater to how it fits a woman. Because I could fit anybody. Everybody. I could fit anybody, and I could fit everybody. But what I create, my creations are something special just to enhance the skin you're in. So if you don't really feel comfortable even in a swimsuit, because a lot of people do not. If you put on the T top or the tea dress, you could go in the water. Like I said, it's. The little black dress of swim. Is an enhancement for you to walk around and be in the water and walk out of the water. The pareo is a little bit different. You can wear that in the water, but it's more of like a. You could go from pool to restaurant and make it, like all different stylings. Joanne Lockwood: Wraparound skirt, Effectively, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The wraparound skirt. But Denise Cesare: of course I have one colour and the other two are black. Because you know, as a small business, when you're starting out, you just have so much fun, right. How much if it doesn't. Not taking off. If people don't know about you, how are you doing? So you start small and you have to build from that. You have to build your audience and your customers. I like the Joanne Lockwood: idea that it's both wet and dry. So you can go from the pool to the bar to wandering around. Exactly. It dries pretty quick. Denise Cesare: I'm guessing after I'm going to tell you. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: You're not dripping water everywhere. It's kind of like white teachers Denise Cesare: that never dries. Hey girl. It doesn't dry. But if you think about this is also. I was also with. I have a product on there to clean, which is about a delicate, organic, eco friendly wash to clean the products. I'm all about sustainability. Sometimes we buy things, people are very. They buy something for $5 and there's nothing against that, but then they're throwing it away. Where's it going? Where is all this garbage going if you're not giving it away? If you're throwing it away. So sustainability. My products are made with exclusive and very good quality fabric for the sustainability of it. And that's why it does dry quick too. It dries so quick. Super quick. Super quick. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I just read the website. It's a fascinating product. For me. I, I've never been comfortable in two piece. I'm always a one piece person. I understand and I Denise Cesare: think you would love it because it is, it is. Like I said, it fits everybody. It's not just. It's not a body type product or it's not a body type design. It's an inclusive fashion sense that everybody looks perfect in it for who they are. That was my goal, being able to. So having this son at the swim club, when I thought about it, remember back then, before it even became something, I wanted to be able to jump up and walk around. Not just, okay, oh my God, wait, I got to get the towel. I got to roll. No, I wanted people to walk out of the water and just walk around. And now I can with whatever swim you have underneath. Even if you wore a tank top and boys, whatever you want to wear underneath that, it just kind of gives it a step up. Well, you can actually, you could probably Joanne Lockwood: turn a shorts and a tank top in something a bit more sexy as well if you wanted to. Exactly. Exactly. Dress. Can I tell you a Denise Cesare: funny storey? I don't know. So someone actually took it. Not that I would do this, and I'm not advocating, but feel free. Anybody that feels free, because it is so forgiving. She went, like nude underneath it and you couldn't see anything because that's how the design kind of. It's not camouflage, but it's just magical. Joanne Lockwood: Yes. It's kind of a. Yeah, it's a black. Yeah, I'm not Denise Cesare: gonna. Tight mesh. It's a relaxed mesh and it says. Exactly. So you Joanne Lockwood: can't probably get your pinky through the hole, can you? Is that. Is that about. Denise Cesare: You can't even. No. So it's smaller than the pinky. Yeah. I wish I had. I don't have it here, but. What is that saying? It's not camouflage. It's magical because you can't see through. Camouflage means you're hiding. This is not hiding. It's just magical. So you could Joanne Lockwood: be ending up with people wearing it out in the evening, you know, going out in town. You could, as you say. Exactly. A bra and pair of knickers underneath and just go out clubbing. That's it. Exactly. See, you. You get it. You just get it doesn't have to just be for swimming. It could be the one outfit for your whole holiday because you can. And you Denise Cesare: know what, if you interchange it to put different colours because of that mesh, you could change the. Like the colour. You could see red through it. Or you. I was gonna say. I'm just thinking it's really powerful, bright scarlet red Joanne Lockwood: undies and bra underneath and amazing. And then it's a Denise Cesare: different. And then having the top and the dress, like the T top could be with jeans or whatever, but then the dress could become a dress. Put a shawl, you just go wild. Got your reds, got your Joanne Lockwood: turquoise, you got your top and all these. Yeah, all these different colours. Exactly Denise Cesare: 1000%. That sounds brilliant. I mean, I'm back on the website as soon Joanne Lockwood: as we hang up. It's got to give it a go. It is. And Denise Cesare: it's amazing because my. Like I said, the. The fashion industry doesn't cater to sizing. So that's how people get suppressed, too, with their body image, because their sizing is skewed. If I. Let's say I'm, as. I'm going to say I'm size 12, right. So I go in the shop and I say, this is my size. And I go in. Now, that is size 8. It's two sizes down from what we Are. So now I go in there. Now I'm crying. I gained it. I gain weight. Why doesn't this fit me? I don't understand. Because you're not a size, you're a fit. So if you go back, this is what I wanted to help people too. Go take. Even though they label it a 16, two sizes up and put it on. And if you look awesome in it, you buy, don't care because they're not a size. You're a fit. It's the fit. You're not that size. That's very. I'm like that. I go into Joanne Lockwood: the retail outlet and I'm. I'm. I. I look on the rack and I see my size. I put it on. I think, it doesn't fit, it's too tight. And then you have to go size up. And you feel like you're cheating going up a size or two. And it's like. But I want you to get the number Denise Cesare: out of your head. Everybody get the number out. Just when you put it on. If you. So some things aren't fit for somebody's body, right? Certain. We all gravitate to something that looks better on us because it's the fit that makes you feel good about it. So just look for the fit. That's why I'm fits. Everybody fits everybody. And love yourself, love your body. I mean, we go through all stages. We gain weight, we lose weight, or we think we're too skinny. We think, enough, you're alive. So you wrote this book Moments of Motion with Love. And that Joanne Lockwood: was all around the mental health challenges that young people were having during COVID and at that time there, because it's hard to think Covid was five years ago. Five years ago seems like yesterday. I don't know what happened. It's like mind blowing. Denise Cesare: It's always present, but it's so long ago because people are still getting it. It's still present. You know, a lot of people are having. And I'm not dealing this but like stress syndrome, post traumatic stress syndrome. Because we didn't really get the mental health that we needed for that phase of our life. It didn't mean there's not enough being done about that. People don't. And you know, I talk about the children that were in kindergarten then. They didn't give them enough. They're there falling through cracks of education because they just missed it all. So I could. Well, I could go on a whole topic about that. You know, we will be here forever. There's so many things I tell you about that. But even as an Joanne Lockwood: adult, it was. For me, it was a tough time. I mean, luckily we didn't have children living with us. Our children were older than that and they were kind of dealing themselves. But I imagine when you're cooped up, locked down, not able to go shopping, not able to go out and do stuff and play outside, it's almost like a one of those disaster movies, isn't it? It was like. Like I said, they didn't have real Denise Cesare: interaction and they didn't have social pragmatic like being able to deal with things. They can deal now. They're not. They don't have coping mechanisms. And that's where the mindfulness comes in with the book. And there's a sort of emotional component. So what Joanne Lockwood: was the key learning for you that came out of that time then? It's the Denise Cesare: key learning of COVID Well, you know, I wrote the book about mindfulness and moments in motion with love. But being mindful is not something easy that we do. It's something you have to practise. Mindfulness, it's not just. It's not just, oh, I'm mindful today. Oh, you have to. Because our brains are always rolling and thinking, what's next? You have to really breathe. Say, I am taking a mindful moment and really know what presence is grounding on your feet, on the ground. I. Even so, I don't know. I have so many things going on that you probably don't even know about. My book became a yoga. Emotions with love. Because every page of the book has emotion and I have a video that is post production with movement to physically put you in the moment. Yeah. I mean, Joanne Lockwood: I'm looking back at what was going on in my head at the time. Yeah, Denise Cesare: yeah, yeah. Did I. Did I answer your question? I'm wondering. Did I really answer it or I'm just wondering historical back. I don't know. Let me. Let me ask Joanne Lockwood: you some more questions and see if we can. Yeah. Zero back to it. But I mean the thing we all have this went through similar phases, denial, all the sort of seven stages of grief. Maybe because I lost effectively my business, I mean, and many others did. We had customers one day and then next day we didn't. I remember it all started as far as I was concerned, where there was that ship. Was it moored off of Los Angeles or something? Was it. There was a big ocean liner and there was 15 people on it or something that had Covid and people were complaining about being locked in their cabin and they were Being passed their meals under the doors. It was like, well, this is really ridiculous. And suddenly Italy, if you go back to Italy, in Europe they had people in intensive care and they were dying and we're thinking Italians, they're both in America, whatever. Then suddenly it's all locked down. All locked down. It's like, yeah. And then people were dying from it. Denise Cesare: Well, I'm thinking about something that you just said because the college community, my son was in college. Right. I talked about that. They have so much stuff that's still in them from that we being locked down. My husband lost his business. You just jarred that to me. Not that we're forgetting. Sometimes it's very heavy what went on during that time. It's heavy that we kind of push it away, but it will come back. You can push, can't push things away. So that's what I want to say about it. So much went on. Pushing it down is not going to heal you. But it's almost like the business community and the politicians Joanne Lockwood: and people around the world have forgotten. It's like we just got to move on. It didn't happen. Get back to the office. No. Working from home, all those well being and all those great things we were doing for our staff, our employees, our customers to make them feel wanted. We kind of just thrown all that in the bin. I thought it would be a generational shift change and it's just reset. Just reset. I was like, yeah, we didn't learn anything. Denise Cesare: No. Because we didn't do the work. No, Joanne Lockwood: no. We would. Maybe it didn't last long enough. Maybe we needed another year of it. Oh God, I don't know. Denise Cesare: But it still is present. People are still dying from it. Right? Yeah. People lose sight of that too. Maybe not in the amount the massive amounts of deaths, but people still get it. People still dying from it. It's still here, it's morphed, it's changing. But there's more. It's like you said, there's more to it. We did not do the work. Not on purpose. There was nothing. No one's offering anything. No one's actually like we're right now stating it. There's so much work that needs to be done. Well, it gave birth of more strength to the anti Joanne Lockwood: vax movement. So we've seen more people weaponizing the anti vax. We mentioned RFK earlier. I mean, well, I mentioned him, but he does not do the Denise Cesare: Botox because he's anti vax. Right. Okay. One side or the other, I have to do it. You have to pick and choose what's right for you. But vaccines saved the world, right? What people didn't die because of vaccines is a whole. Yeah, exactly. It became a dividing line, not a politic. Politicised, weaponized. Exactly. Joanne Lockwood: It's. Yeah. If you vote blue, you believe this, if you vote red, you believe that. And it's kind of becoming that, that battle cry, isn't it? It's funny that we're talking about this because just last Denise Cesare: night my friend came over for her birthday, we had a whole weekend together and we had this red and blue. I said, why is it that? Why are we not just coming together for the greater good? It's not about division. How about doing what you're supposed to do? We the people, we're not in charge. We the people should have the say. We should have more say in their realm of what they're presenting to us. We the people don't have a voice, really. I mean, I have a voice, but not in government. Just don't. Just don't. Because we're not in charge of that. So it's red, blue, green, it doesn't matter. They will still be divisive because they're not doing their part together, they're dividing it. So we can't go there. I'm too much about love when I go there. I get, oh, shoo. Because they don't need a little bit of love. Their little situations that they're dealing with. Yeah, I struggle as well because Joanne Lockwood: it's a lot so clear and obvious that compassion, love, empathy, communication, listening. Denise Cesare: It's so clear. But this was the. I can't even believe this. This was our exact conversation last night. It's so clear to us. But why are we so divided? Why? Joanne Lockwood: Why? Why is our perspective not the only perspective? Is it power money? It can't be just be power money, can it? I think it's just Denise Cesare: I don't have that. If I had that million dollar answer. If I had that. Joanne Lockwood: Split it, split it 50. 50. Right, right, exactly. We have that Denise Cesare: million dollar answer because it is something, you know, something so simple, but it's so complicated because we're not part of it. So we're living in a world now, as you Joanne Lockwood: said, it's polarised. There's these debates, the political climate seems to be out of touch sometimes with that compassionate rhetoric. We've got our young people, young adults, even older adults. We spend a lot of time flicking through our screens, being judged by likes and Instagram and Snapchat filters. It's really Tough being a kid now, isn't it? Denise Cesare: It sure is. They believe what they see. They have to dig deeper. You can't just believe all these. Because people could change things on Instagram. You could have filters, you. You could just change any. You could post different things. You want to say, not everything is true. Not everything is, you know, not false, but not everything's true. And it's too much of this instant world that people don't even take the moment or mindfulness to actually. They're just flipping and scripting. Like you're saying the brain is just next, next, next. Well, what is that? You know, I am happy, though. I have. Yes, I am on Instagram, but I do not put things on there. I put knowledge. Knowledge is power. I put things that you could learn. I put things to empower you, you know, because I. I give you information, but you really, in the end of it, have to empower yourself. Yeah. I mean, the way I look at things like Instagram Joanne Lockwood: or Facebook or other platforms, LinkedIn, is that if you meet me in real person, you recognise me. It's not like I'm. Is that you? Is that really you? Different. Right. I very rarely wear makeup when I'm. When I'm doing podcasts, maybe if I'm doing some keynotes online, maybe very rarely. And if I go out, I think, am I just going to the shops? We're just doing a bit of this, bit of that. I think I'm not going to bother. So I'm quite happy to be raw and ready, you know, kind of thing. Well, I like that. Raw and Denise Cesare: ready. That's a good one. I like that. But it's true. You just. You have to. We just went back to this. Be you. We were talking about this right before the park. We have. You just have to be you. And I did write, I am a co author in another book with 33 powerful women called Magnificently Made. Well, I love that as well. Yeah, the title is beautiful, but within it, my chapter is called Let It Be and it's all about how music healed me. Because music was, yes, the Beatles and other songs and listening to. But also there's science to the music. It's not just art form, there's science, the vibrations, the brain and the vagus nerve. All these things that music does that people don't know or that they should investigate. Because it's amazing. Joanne Lockwood: I love it when we name drop the vagus nerve into these conversations. Denise Cesare: Guess what? I studied the vagus nerve because I'm a speech language pathologist. So I, I could talk about the vagus nerves because I studied it. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. It's, it's such a, an underrated part of our neurobiological system, isn't it? I mean it, it's. Those are the cranial Denise Cesare: nerves. They're in your brain. Your brain is the, the centre. Right. Your heart is a sensor, your brain is a sensor. These things have to, that's the difference. This is the political difference. The brain and the heart and are coming together. That's the problem. That's the problem. They're not. The brain and the heart are not meeting. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, but the vagus nerve is the, the control highway, isn't it? It's Denise Cesare: the epicentre. It goes from your, your brain to your gut. Yeah, it's the epicentre. Yeah, yeah. That's your, your adrenaline Joanne Lockwood: or your pituitary. All these, all these glands. Vagus nerve kicks in, says you're going to feel anxious, you're going to feel queasy. Yeah. Denise Cesare: People don't like I, of course, like I just said to you, I studied it, so I know I put myself back to college. That was some bad semester where you had to study all those cranial nerves. Oops. It was a lot. It was a lot. Yeah. No, I, I've, when I started, I've Joanne Lockwood: not studied it in any academic way, but I've certainly read up on it since I first came across the. Came across it about 10 years ago. And it's like it is, it's. You start to understand why you feel something, how your biases tripping, your fight, fight, freeze mechanism and all these kind of things and how that takes over your body and it's all coming straight through that. Yeah, it's a pathway use. Denise Cesare: Like you just said, it's a pathway from your mind to your. So when people say butterflies in your stomach, then you make us know you're. Going to feel anxious, you're going to. Feel, oh, I took in my Las Vegas. That's a different type of old Las Vegas, right? Huh? That's a bit Elvis. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, yeah, that is. It's. I think when you study what goes on with your body, you are more in touch with it. I think, I think maybe that was what was in my life for most of it. I was always blissfully ignorant or unaware or out of touch with my own biology, my own physiology, my own, my own brain understanding why things are happening. I was into computing, so I was more worried about why my computer crashed and didn't reboot than I was about why I was Crashing and not rebooting. Right. I think maybe that's where we go wrong. We're not teaching enough people around their physiological responses and how the biases are all again, triggered. Exactly. I Denise Cesare: agree with that. Oh, I'm going to tell you something else that I talk about that's very important. If people would only know that from birth to seven, your brain is mapping things that you learn. There's mapping going on in the brain after seven, that stops. So someone's like, you had seven and 77 is the same. The only difference is you can. You can map these things. Like, I made my son play the guitar so he could learn at 5, so he could learn how to read music. Those things are mapped in your brain. If you do violent video games at 5, they're mapped in your brain. So what? Fast forward to that. You have to infuse arts and music and all of these awesome things in the brain from birth to seven, that's putting love in your brain. And then from there after that, the world will be a better place for sure. But for us, our iq, because you could learn, but you can't map your brain. You can change the brain. You can learn things. We're always learners. Right. We could always learn, but it's a totally different thing. So that core Joanne Lockwood: foundation is laid down early. So you are kind of become a product of that time in your life. And that's why this book came out too, because Denise Cesare: it's about loving yourself, loving each other and loving the planet. It's also a book that is healing your inner child. We all sounds like Joanne Lockwood: RuPaul. Is that RuPaul if you can't love yourself or something. Yeah, I Denise Cesare: don't even know. But for what my ideas are is that if you can't heal your inner child, you're never going to heal because you have to tap into those wounds. There's wounds that stay or stay dormant, like you just said, and then they show up. So, Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I've got lots of strong memories about my childhood. The. The love I was shown by my mum and being part of a. Yeah, a very nice family. It was very. Yeah. Very white, very middle class, very ordinary. Yeah. But I had a lot of stability as a child and I've never been in those situations where I had huge amounts of trauma. So I guess I can play on that now that I've got that really strong foundation. Exactly. Denise Cesare: But when you have that foundation, then you could tap into it. If you don't have it, where are you going? Where you're going with It. If you don't have a foundation, those are the people that are lost. Those are the people that. When people say, oh, mental health. Well, you're not doing. You present. But are we following through on mental health in America? Don't. Don't give me a drug. It's not about, yes, medicine's important, but what are the side effects to medicine or what? There has to be more monitoring, right? You're gonna give someone a drug and then you go, good, bye, bye. Take that prescription drug and come see me in six months. In those six months, your brain chemistry changes. Joanne Lockwood: Do we spend enough time with young parents or even before they have children, educating them in developing those formative years, or are we just expecting people to figure it out? Denise Cesare: You just said it. They're just expecting people to figure it out. What I'm presenting to you, I know, because of my studies, but no one's talking about who's talking. I mean, I don't know who's talking about this because I don't hear it. I hear myself. I'm talking to my own choir. That's why I hear podcasts are good, because now maybe some of them will say, oh, Denise, that's something I never knew about. Well, thank you, Joanne, for bringing Denise here with your knowledge and power and helping us. Because the children, Joanne Lockwood: they're not. I don't like generalising. Many children aren't developing resilience and they're suffering from anxiety. Seeing a rise in asd, autism, adhd. People are trying to link that to drugs and vaccines. Maybe the link should be back to the environment and how they're being reinforced in that early formative years. Denise Cesare: Exactly. They are not being, like you said, it is a parent thing because you're not born a parent. We don't get born and we're like, oh, I know how to be a parent. No one knows what you know, but you have to be, you know, and if you were in a bad situation, what a bad. A life of having a bad family life, then I made perseverance. So it's. It's very. It's a very heavy topic, but we need to. We need to do something because it's a mental health crisis and that's why the. And the children. Excuse Joanne Lockwood: me, I'm gonna go have a drink. Have a guzzle. Don't worry. I press pause on the tape. Don't worry. Carry on. So I'm joking. We're just. We're gonna let it roll. We'll let it roll. We'll let it roll. No, Pressure, it's okay. Well you know I have to protect my voice. Of course, yeah. Not even just children. Denise Cesare: I'm gonna say the youth or the young adults of today have no coping mechanisms. I think we're now, we're Joanne Lockwood: now coming into second generation. So we have parents who have. Haven't had the coping mechanisms or the resilience built into their lives at their early age are now becoming parents. So we're expecting them to now of course the Chinese whispers it's getting worse and worse and worse, more self fulfilling. So we'll end up in maybe another couple of generations time where we've lost that, that resilience that we've always had and we want instant gratification. We want it now. We want to, we, we don't like not winning. We want. Yeah, we're going to live in debt and all these sort of things and. You know, I mean sometimes I think to myself Denise Cesare: how did I have the resilience? Because yes, I had a relatively intact childhood then there were some things, episodes of things that did occur that were heavy and then how did I. How? I think so because you have to look within to know how to help others. How was I resilient? And I always just come back to. I learned that because at the time when you know, we talked about the voice, we'll dial back to that. During that time it was very dark. It was a dark time in my life. It was so dark and people go through this. That's of the mental illness. What is darkness? How do you find? I always say you have to look for. I don't know even if it's like a seed, you have to look for light. And what would happen to me. I had a six year old, remember And I always thought it was the six year old that kept me alive. That's why I was still there. And as doing all this work that I've been doing for the past five years I realised that as much as I loved him, it wasn't about my love for him that kept me here. It was my love for myself and the resilience and not wanting to give up and seeking things to get me to the next step. I would go to work every day. I'd have to smile at myself in the mirror because of the heaviness that they would present on me because they really didn't want me there. They didn't want to help someone with a disability. They didn't want to. But yet you're teaching people with disabilities but you want to get rid of the Educator with a disability, go figure that out. But they didn't. You see, I'm here. They didn't get rid of me. I stayed, I persevered. I even was better than ever because my students. So me having a disability created me as the educator, but then me as the human with the disability that connected with them on a deeper, more loving level. Not that everybody has to get something to have that, but it was a better self love purpose for me. So the bottom line with why I'm still here and sitting is I learned that love myself. Because if you don't have self love, you don't want to be here straight, straight out. That's. That was my formula. I could have said everything else like I did. I said, my son saved me. No, I saved myself. I think that's, that's the important thing though, isn't it? It's. Use the Joanne Lockwood: phrase bootstrap. It's being a. Pull yourself up yourself and learn how to, how to spot when you're starting to tumble a bit and how to put those cheques in and then making sure you've got a supportive network around you that can also pick up on those triggers as well. Denise Cesare: Yes, I think that was an awakening for me because I used to say, oh, my son was sick, I had to keep going. It was a little. I guess that was the motivation, but that's not what saved me. There's two different things, right? Because there's people who have everything. I think of people when they commit suicide. There's so many people that have everything. They have a child and the people go, why did they do that? And I say to them, because sometimes I think I get very emotional about this and I say, don't blame them. They didn't want. They were in so much pain, they couldn't stay here anymore. They weren't looking like me to find a crumb of light, you know, they just couldn't find it because they weren't doing things to serve their soul and they weren't doing things to love themselves or healing. And that's why. But I always, I do get very intense about them when people go, oh, why'd they do that? Why they. So people do say people are selfish when they do that. I'm like, just go read up. Because it's not about that. Because if they have everything, why would they do that? And then taking these and like, you know, I'm not against medicine, but cheques and balances, if you're going to prescribe something even to a younger adult. No, some Things create suicidal tendencies. Right. That then you better be monitoring them. Don't just leave them on their own to just be taking this drug and not know. So that, that this, these are very important things that we're talking about that is not even addressed. I use ChatGPT a lot these days because Joanne Lockwood: it's quite amazing. And it's diagnosis capability. Denise Cesare: Well, it is a helpful tool. Right. But it's amazing. I don't use it that much, but I should try. Right. I use it to analyse my Joanne Lockwood: blood test results, other things that are going on. That's interesting. I cut and paste it off my healthcare app, all my blood results, paste it and say, what do you reckon? And it goes, oh, wait, yeah, that's okay, that's okay. Oh, be a bit careful. Your white blood count cells are a bit high and Should I be worried? No, no, because that's okay. So sometimes you have to go to gp. Wow. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try that. Thank you. I like Denise Cesare: that idea. Now, I've got a couple of conditions that I'm, I'm sort of Joanne Lockwood: trying to sort out with a bit of medication stuff and I, I, I give it my symptoms and then help it get to draught. A letter to my GP that makes it sound like I'm curious but knowledgeable without being. You don't sound like you're smart. Smart ass. Do you want to sort of say. Exactly. I was wondering if it's something like this because I've read something, you know, in this. Right, exactly. Denise Cesare: Just curious. Curious, not criticising, just curious. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And would a course of antibiotics help with that? And they go, you're right. Thank you. That's good. Yeah. Or phrasing the condition in a way that is understandable. So you thought it's a bit of this and a bit of that asks you a few more questions. It says, okay, now construct a letter to my gp. And then I cheque, I scan the leaflets you get in your medicine boxes and I scan it in and say, look, I've been prescribed this, these are my other ones, you know, already take what indicators are there. Is it like to cause that? No, this is Denise Cesare: a knowledge. Thank you. Because you know what it can, you know, we need to be able, we have to be our advocate so we acknowledge them. Interesting. It's harder and harder to get access to your gp. They're busier, Joanne Lockwood: they're more restrained, funding's less certainly in the uk. Yeah, Denise Cesare: it's true. I've suffered from puffy ankles at times. Joanne Lockwood: I've suffered from other conditions. And I've just got sort of. Is this causing that? You know, my blood pressure going up and down. Right. Denise Cesare: Because I have the blood pressure thing too. And like I just said to you, you want to take as little as possible because they have side effects. But some things you have to take. There's no way around it. If you have high blood pressure, would you want to be vital and alive? You can't not take the blood pressure meds, especially if there's a family history of heart conditions. Right. Medicine's important, but knowledge is power and you have to be an advocate because they are human too. And they, they, they, you know, we have to work together. There's another thing, working together again, working together. People don't get that. Yeah. And if anyone listening to this, this right Joanne Lockwood: now, I'm not advocating that chat. GPT can replace a doctor. The medical advice it gives you is, is at best a storey, you know, and you, you have to interpret it yourself. So, you know, don't go off and. No, don't be running and going, no, Denise Cesare: no, don't go doing that. But it doesn't hurt to investigate. This is investigating. This is not, this is not taking it for, for gospel or whatever word I want to use. It's not taking it for the. But just give you information, that's all. It's like listening to a podcast too. We're saying things, we have great information. But it's not for everybody too. Right, everybody. It's not for everybody. But I'm about. Fits everybody and being all in the moment. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. I think we do need to stop counting all the little micro steps and planning away the rest of your life. I know that my personality type is kind of now and next. What am I doing now and what am I doing next? Next week? I don't care. I'm just worried about this evening, this afternoon, tomorrow morning. And I'm quite happy to wake up in the morning, cheque my diary and go, oh, that's interesting. That's what I'm doing today. As long as I shouldn't be somewhere else and I've got a train ticket and I know what time I supposed to leave. So that's kind of what I do, you know, before I go to bed, I'd say, what am I doing tomorrow? And I go, oh, that sounds like a good day. I'm enjoying that. Yeah. Because I know some people who are, who will plan out the rest of their life and it's like, I can't live with that. I can't be that planned. I just want to have the freedom to figure it out, wing it. When you plan, something else happens Denise Cesare: anyway. There's so many things that could change, you know, being in the moment, like you said, like right now or the next. The people use that word, mindfulness. They throw it around. Right. Everybody's, oh, mindfulness, you know, but it's not about. It's a practise. I think people really need to know you're not just mindful. You have to practise mindfulness. You are not just, you know, you may be thoughtful, you may be thinking, but mindfulness is a practise. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: About yourself, about the impact on others and others impact on you. And then contextualising and not sweating the small stuff, as they say. Denise Cesare: Or if you're gonna sweat it, take a moment and just breathe. Because don't sweat. Try not to sweat it out. Yeah, that's right. At that point there, Joanne Lockwood: you put your t suit on and you go for a dip in the pool. Denise Cesare: Don't you put your t suit on and go have fun. Exactly. Have a Joanne Lockwood: splash. Yeah. And then you can wear it to the bar afterwards with a skimpy. Denise Cesare: I love that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, it's true. Joanne Lockwood: Denise, it's been absolutely fantastic having a chat with you. I mean, we've been rapiding on now for well over an hour here and 20 minutes in the green room. No, people get a hold of you. That's true. Oh, my. Denise Cesare: Wow. I know. We can talk. Well, yeah, I can. Well, now you got rid of your Joanne Lockwood: dysphonia. Yeah, yeah. And then I'll go back for the injection Denise Cesare: again. It is a cycle and I'm blessed, though, because it works. So, you know. Yeah. So how can people Joanne Lockwood: get hold of you? What's. What's the. The best way to track you down? So Denise Cesare: the. I think the easiest way to get a hold of me is go to my website, denise caesar.com. spell it with the Chesire. Denise C E S A R E dot com. There you can purchase my book and you will get it autographed if you choose to go through Amazon, which is fine because it comes in two seconds. You won't get it autographed and you won't get the updated version. I made a new updated version because in my book I have a glossary, because when you hear words and sometimes you don't really understand what they're meaning in the context of what the author has presented to you. So it has a glossary of the. Especially for children too. So they could hold on to the meaning of this book. Then there's a poem in there. So, yeah, deniseiser.com, amazon, all social handles, fits everybody on Instagram and Facebook. Of course, you could Google my name and you'll see everything I'm doing. You know, it's funny. Google could show you everything about yourself and. Yeah, just reach out. I have. So in my book, I empower the reader. I tell you how wonderful you are, but if you don't believe. That's my belief poem. If you don't believe it, it's not within you. So I'm going to say the poem before we leave. Are you okay with that? Yeah, go for it. So you've got. Your book is Moments in Joanne Lockwood: Motion, Moments in Motion book is your Facebook page and tsuit is t-suit.com. if you want to find out more about the. I'm sorry, I didn't talk about that yet. Denise Cesare: If you go on Instagram, though, you know, there's the link tree. It could get you to the. People want quick, right? They don't want to go type into my T shirt dot com, go to Instagram, go on my link tree. You'll see the website right there because they're. They're quick. They want to be quick, right? So my believe poem. And I want you to say it with me to believe. Believe, girl. Joanne Lockwood: Ted Lasso. Believe. I am loved. I am loved. Denise Cesare: I am light. I am liked. I am courage. I am courage. I am bright. Joanne Lockwood: I am bright. I am brave. I am brave. I am so important in this Denise Cesare: moment. I am so important in this Joanne Lockwood: moment. And you are. And you are. I have a mantra which I developed again about 10, 15 years ago, where I realised that in order to be loved, you have to be lovable. In order to be liked, you have to be likeable. In order to be worthy of respect, you have to show that you are worthy of respect. And all of those things are within you to control. You cannot demand of somebody else if you're not prepared to give it. So 99% of what we have to do to be loved is within us. Thank you, Denise. It's been amazing. I've really loved our conversation and. Yeah, please get in touch. Thank you so Denise Cesare: much. Yes, please be in touch. And if you want. You want to know anything, just contact me and we will be in touch. And thank you for having me on your podcast. It was a pleasure. Joanne Lockwood: Absolutely, absolutely. Take care. Bye. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to explain express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.