--- title: "Leadership, Learning And Belonging" episode: 190 date: 2026-01-02 guest: "Dr Cedric Howard" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/190-leadership-learning-and-belonging audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-190/audio.mp3 --- # Leadership, Learning And Belonging Joanne Lockwood is joined by Dr Cedric Howard to explore how leadership, learning, and belonging intersect in higher education and beyond. Cedric reflects on the formative crisis that shaped his career: the Rodney King verdict and the racialised unrest it triggered on his campus, where his instinct to de-escalate and protect community became a turning point into educational leadership. From there, the conversation moves into what inclusive leadership looks like in practice—grounding decisions in context, translating policy into human stories, and ensuring the people most affected (students) are at the heart of decision-making. Cedric discusses how institutions often mirror the societies they sit within, and why clarity comes from combining content with context. Alongside insights on systems and leadership, Cedric shares personal lessons about breaking cycles of poverty through education and skill-building, including the family expectation set by his grandmother that transformed generational outcomes. Joanne and Cedric also unpack why failure, grit, and resilience matter, challenging “everyone gets a trophy” thinking and offering practical ways to build capability and confidence over time. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction & Welcome - 01:30 — Embracing Inclusion and Identity - 06:12 — Pacific Northwest: Unique, Tax-Friendly Paradise - 10:09 — Campus Tensions Erupt over Verdict - 11:05 — Duct Tape Incident Sparks Success - 16:05 — From Welfare to Generational Wealth - 18:20 — Overcoming Internal Struggles - 23:09 — Prioritising Students in Education - 24:36 — Prioritising Student Voices - 28:38 — Family Success and Perseverance - 31:33 — Education Beyond College Pathways - 37:42 — Success Through Structure and Growth - 41:12 — Lessons Learned Through Mistakes - 43:51 — Building Resilience Through Challenges - 48:19 — Football: A Lifestyle and Economy - 51:43 — Fire Exit Mishap - 54:48 — True Friends in Crisis - 56:23 — Inclusion: Join the Journey ## Key takeaways - The pivotal role of community in creating inclusive learning environments in higher education. - Practical frameworks for involving those affected in decision-making to ensure policies serve real needs. - The significance of storytelling in humanising policy and making impactful change accessible. - Strategies for nurturing resilience and growth mindset through embracing failure and learning from setbacks. - Ways to recalibrate belief systems, address intergenerational poverty, and instil new family traditions around success. - Approaches to honouring intersectionality and seeing students as individuals rather than statistics. - Tools for rethinking leadership—placing authenticity, context, and active listening at the heart of educational transformation. ## FAQs ### What is the core focus of this episode? This episode of Inclusion Bites explores the intersections of leadership, learning, and belonging, with particular emphasis on how inclusive leadership in higher education can help break cycles of poverty and foster genuine inclusion. --- ### Who are the speakers in this episode? Joanne Lockwood (she/her): Host of the Inclusion Bites Podcast, a leading voice on inclusion and belonging, and founder of SEE Change Happen. Dr. Cedric Howard: Guest and higher education thought leader, financial empowerment advocate, and champion of translating complex policy into actionable change. --- ### How does Dr. Cedric Howard define his purpose and superpower? Dr. Cedric Howard describes his superpower as translating complex policies into everyday stories that inspire meaningful, actionable change. His core purpose lies in using inclusive leadership to open opportunities for those from disadvantaged backgrounds. --- ### What formative experiences shaped Dr. Cedric Howard’s leadership approach? His early life experiences in the American South, where he witnessed and intervened in racial tension during the aftermath of the Rodney King verdict, propelled his career in higher education and shaped his commitment to inclusion, relational leadership, and resolving conflict with empathy rather than anger. --- ### How does storytelling support inclusion in higher education? Storytelling is central to Dr. Cedric Howard's methodology. He argues that involving students in decision-making processes and capturing their stories humanises policy decisions and ensures the unique needs and identities of students are addressed, rather than reducing them to mere statistics. --- ### What is the significance of being a ‘first generation college student’ according to Dr. Cedric Howard? Dr. Cedric Howard explains that being the first in his family to graduate from university became an inflection point, inspiring subsequent generations to pursue education. For his family, a new tradition was created centred around higher learning, but he also emphasises that the real goal is post-secondary skills, not just degrees. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 190 with the title Leadership, Learning and Belonging. And I have the absolute honour and Privilege to welcome Dr. Cedric Howard. Cedric is a higher educational thought leader and financial empowerment advocate who is dedicated to breaking cycles of poverty through inclusive leadership and real world impact. And when I asked Cedric to describe his superpower, he said that it is translating complex policy into everyday storeys that inspire actionable change. Hello, Cedric. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm honoured to be here. Looking Dr. Cedric Howard: forward to the conversation. Absolute pleasure. So Joanne Lockwood: we were chatting in the green room just before we went live and I think you said you were in North America at some place. Dr. Cedric Howard: Yes, you talk about sleepless in Seattle. I'm in the wonderful city of Seattle. Seattle. And I Joanne Lockwood: guessed this correctly, so this is not cheating. I guessed it was in Washington state and I just. Yes, we're Dr. Cedric Howard: nested between California, Oregon and British Columbia, Canada. So I get. I've been to Joanne Lockwood: New York a few times, I've been to Miami a few times, I've been to San Diego, San Francisco and L.A. What's the Seattle culture like as a state? Or do you have an identity? Dr. Cedric Howard: Yes, we have what is called Seattle. Nice. It is the place everyone likes to come to when they enjoy moderate weather because it's pretty much between 40 and 70 year round. A hot day for us is like 72. Not a lot of snow, especially on the i5 corridor door. But it's the place you come when you want to just relax, chill, get you a cup of. Of coffee. Of course, you know we're known for being the home for a famous coffee place that shall remain nameless. Yes, of course, but. Of course, but no, it is a place that I have Grown to love, in part because it is a place where your identity and who you are as a person is accepted. And our neighbourhood. I grew up in the southern part of the United States where race was an issue, either things were black or white, and where you went, you knew based upon your ethnic makeup here, whether. Whether you are straight, gay, black, white, however you decide to identify is well embraced and welcome, in part because the Pacific Northwest community is one that looks at inclusion as an asset and we embrace it. If you were to go into my neighbourhood, or you were to go into my place of business, where my office is located, I mean, sometimes people refer to it as United nations because you may hear two or three different languages just as you're entering the door or you're playing outside with the kids. Pacific Northwest, I've heard that term. I never really associated that with a Joanne Lockwood: geographical language location. But, yeah, obvious, isn't it? You're on the Pacific and you're in the Northwest. So, yeah, you mentioned the i5. I didn't realise it went all that way up. It goes all the way from basically Mexico all the way through, up to Washington State then, does it? Dr. Cedric Howard: That is certainly the case. Certainly the case. Unfortunately. You know, one of the, I would say the liabilities of being in the Pacific Northwest is because it's so green, we have a lot of allergies that are blooming during this time of season. So we have to adjust and adapt from that perspective. Other than that, that's the worst we have to deal with here. Joanne Lockwood: So you're on the i5 all the way at the top, aren't you? So I, I, I bumped into the i5 in San Diego, in LA when I was there. And my claim to fame is I went to Mexico by mistake. I was driving down the i5 and was chatting away and, and missed the sign said last US Exit and then next sign is welcome to Mexico. And it was a, a bit of a, kind of like, oh, that was a mistake. Dr. Cedric Howard: It was an aha moment. Yeah. So if you would continue north, you would take the eye up through Oregon and into Washington and you will eventually end at the Canadian border. So it literally goes from Canada to Mexico along Joanne Lockwood: that coast? Yeah. Yes, yes. Literally, it is Dr. Cedric Howard: the gateway between three different countries. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Yeah. When I was in, I worked in LA for a while and we did spend a bit of time cruising up and down the pch. Yes. Yeah. Pacific. Yeah. So you go there, all the RVs on the side of the road, parking over the, looking over the Pacific, and you just go on and on and on. There's back to back RVs for 20, 30, half an hour as you're driving them. Yeah, well, see, you know, the uniqueness of Dr. Cedric Howard: being in some place like the Pacific Northwest is in part because all of the Californians, actually many of them have residents here in Washington state, in part because of our tax system. You know, California is a high tax state. In Washington State we don't have a state income tax. And so you can, as we say, you make your money in California, but you have your permanent residence and address here in Washington state so that you don't have to necessarily pay the taxes or as many taxes on your income. And that's kind of what we, what we're known for. What I oftentimes say about being in Pacific Northwest, it is the utopian community that you didn't know existed. And I have to say that very respectfully, in part because when people come here and they're walking around and they're trying to, you know, enjoy the sights, whether it is a space Needle or they're going to, you know, see some of, you know, because, you know, literally in, in Seattle you could be fishing in the Pacific Ocean and then literally an hour from, from, from there you could be skiing all in the same morning or same afternoon because we go from actually sea level all the way up through the point where you have Mount Rainier. And so it is a diverse community that people, you know, fall in love with. But when you come here, the thing that most people are surprised is just how genuinely kind people are. And three out of the top 10 zip codes, United States for its diversity is here in metropolitan Seattle area. I giggled because I said, wait till you see the insurance commercials. And so there's insurance commercials where people are literally at four way stops and they say, you go. No, you go. No, you go, you go. And no one can decide who to go because people are just so kind and so nice, you know, and that could be a bit shocking because you begin to suspect something's wrong. And I think it's just a community environment that have really been cultivated here in the Seattle area. Joanne Lockwood: Sounds heavenly. Maybe in a few years time when it's safe to travel again. I may venture that way. You never know. That is Dr. Cedric Howard: certainly the case. I mean, we have a much larger issue around travel and Visa and other things that we're dealing with here in the United States that I think is something that is a bit of an overcast in relations to travel and how we deal with things. So. Well said. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: it's a bit complex right now, so we'll just wait for clarity and see what happens. Anyway, so you're an educational thought leader. What does that mean? How did that come about? So it was actually a mistake, Dr. Cedric Howard: to be quite honest and frank. I got into higher education literally. You know, people say, never waste a good crisis. And my actually introduction to higher education was a crisis. And I had used it to maximise the opportunity and really cultivate and create and curate a career that has led to me being considered a thought leader here in the United states. So in 1993, it was the first recorded case of police officers actually, you know, abusing a person. And that person's name was Rodney King. I happened to be working at a university as a student and that day my campus was in the state of Georgia. And actually the campus, very proud of being a graduate of that institution, was the very first capital of Georgia. It actually sits geographically in the centre of the state and the governor's mansion is on campus. And so a couple blocks from there is the residence hall, very large Residence hall, about 800 students that resided there. And that day we had just literally finished playing intramural basketball and everyone was having fun. And when the verdict happened on the the Pacific coast in California, three hours later, those same people were actually physically attacking each other because of the verdict. And of course, like I said, everything in the south, especially back then, was black and white. So you had friends that were getting along now, attacking each other based upon their colour. And I'm a relatively big guy, you know, six, four. And so I did something that I thought I would regret, but actually became the springboard for my career. I ran into the resident assistant's office and got duck taped and I went and grabbed people because they respected me. At that point in time, I was student body vice president and had just been named Hong Kong King for the campus. And I began to duct take people to telegram polls to. If you stay still long enough, I would duct tape you to someone else just so you can fight each other. Well, the next day I got called to the president's office and the vice president was there and the chief of police was there and I knew that I was getting, you know, suspended and expelled from school. And they literally said to me, hey, Cedric, when we begin this and your name came up, we were shocked because we was like, Cedric was involved. I can't believe he was, you know, involved in this particular situation in a negative way and realised, no, you were actually the saving grace. And so, no, you're not getting kicked out of school. What we would like to offer you is an opportunity to consider higher education as a profession. And I said, as a profession? They said, yes, we go to school to become college administrators. I said, I've never heard of that before. They said, well, when you graduate next year, we would like to recommend you to a couple of schools. Which they did. And I was accepted. And ultimately that became the springboard and trajectory of a career that has spanned more than 30 years. And so that has evolved into me really curating my career to say as a first generation college student, which I am, how do I create an environment where people that are similar to me, people that are coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, people that are students that are coming from less than desired socioeconomic classes into the. Give them a gateway into the academy. And so that's how I have created my career. And because of that, when there's a thought that needed to be considered and, or interview, you know, just this last week I've been interviewed by Forbes and, and Yahoo Finance. And just think over my career, I've been interviewed for north of 150 publications. When there's a question that is been batted back and forth around, you know, how does this affect the student experience and affect students. Usually I'm getting a call in order to provide some narrative. But it all began a chance situation, you know, in April of 1993 because of the Rodney King situation. And some action I took actually led me into a career of being a higher education administrator and then ultimately a college professor and writing chapters and books for the profession. And now I'm considered to be a thought leader and as the young people say, an OG and a higher education og kind of the old guard, you know, even though I tell them I'm not, I don't look as old as I actually am. As you talk about. I've got loads of questions in my Joanne Lockwood: head that I just want to, I really want to dive in there. Please go Dr. Cedric Howard: ahead. For those listening, who is Joanne Lockwood: Rodney King? I've heard the name as being outside of the U.S. i don't know the storey. And it was what, 22 years ago? 23 years ago. What's the quick storey about who Rodney King was? Yes, so Rodney King actually Dr. Cedric Howard: was, believe it or not, was 32 years ago. It was in 1993, California. We talk about the PCH. Rodney King was the first actual recorded police beating of a citizen. And it was on. It was a situation in California where he was a driver that was pulled over and you know, dozens of police Officers responded and he was. There was a recording of four police officers beating him hundreds of times. And it was the. You know, for me, it became the introduction of recorded activity and actions that was uploaded from a camcorder and that video went viral before we knew the term viral across the world. And then ultimately there was a case of those four police officers with the video and they were acquitted and said that their actions were just. And that ignited. It sparked a lot of racial tension and frustration within the United States. So that's kind of the premise of, you know, some people have heard of George Floyd, but this was the original case before George Floyd happened. Rodney King was the very first recorded police case of brutality here in the United States. As a black man Joanne Lockwood: yourself, a part of the community, you must have been outraged as well, just from a racial community point of view. But how were you feeling at the time? Well, I didn't know how Dr. Cedric Howard: to feel at the time. You know, at this time, you know, I'm not even, you know, I'm not even. I think I was like 19 or 20 and, you know, and I'm a college student. And I realised that in our campus, I mean, we're only 5% of the student population. And here I am as a student body officer and, you know, recognised by our community. For me, I was raised in an environment and just knowing my storey, I was raised, you know, one of. One of my things I've done for its financial literacy and that part, and I'm kind of circle back around is I go into communities, I tell the storey of how I went from welfare to wealth and generational wealth. And part of it was that I was raised in a community that took care of each other, where, you know, your neighbour's needs were your needs. And so I took that same thought into the academy, into the university. And so as a resident assistant living in our residence hall, I went into a community saying, okay, why are we fighting each other for no reason? I mean, we're friends. And so I just went into action the same way I would have been in the inner city had I been at home. If something's happened, you just jump into action. And so I didn't see myself as a large black man now after the fact I did. But during the situation, I saw myself as a student body officer. I saw myself as an agent of the institution. I saw myself as interacting with friends that had a relationship. So this wasn't transactional, this relational. And I think that allowed me to take off the blinders that would have blinded me Had I thought about, I'm a large black man about to go and grab someone who's not black, because that would have, you know, fear would have forced me, you know, to forfeit ultimately what became my promise. And I'm very fortunate that it did. It. It takes a. Well, with hindsight, it must have taken Joanne Lockwood: a really. It's been ingrained in your psyche and personality that you were looking for resolution and to pull together rather than get angry and push apart. That must take a real kind of core value of yours that you've brought through. Well, one of my core Dr. Cedric Howard: values as a person and as an educator is the greatest struggle you have to overcome is the one within yourself. If you can't win the battle of your own thoughts and the self talk and rewire your mind to think positive and seek positivity, then you're already defeated. And so I live my lifelong perspective that a crisis or a threat is nothing more than opportunity. No simply means another option. And so I have to look at my life from that perspective, not from a deficit mindset. And I oftentimes say that if we begin with that, then you and I have never met each other, but there's a kinship that we can engage in a conversation with honesty and in a authentic manner that I think is beneficial for others that review this particular conversation. Now, if we begin from that perspective, we've already won. We've already set an environment, an ecosystem that we can learn from each other. And I think that is critical in any conversation and debate to give that person the agency to be who they are and to respect who they are. And so that's the way I approach life. That's who I am as a professional, who I am in, you know, in higher education. Because almost every higher education institution is nothing more than a reflection of the community that it resides within. That is all that it is. It is simply a smaller, miniature version of, of what is happening with the factors and the influences that are affecting it. And so we, you know, discuss things in the same way. The difference is that we create an environment that says it is okay to have debate, it is okay to be frustrated, it is okay to, to engage in conversation, but you must do so up under the umbrella or the premise of that you respect the person that you're engaging in debate with. That is something that I think we can. Can mirror in society. And I think that's what has come for me. And that's why that being a person from a disadvantaged background, I had all the things that was against me. You Know, I was the first in my family to go to college. Well, statistics say I shouldn't make it. Definitely was not. Only 4% of African Americans in the United States and only 2% of African Americans across the world have terminal degrees, you know, for a doctorate, you know. And so for me, it was creating an environment to say, because I've come from those places, why should I fear, you know, the situations I'm dealing with? Because we should create an environment where people feel valued, seen, and most importantly, validated. That's how we should lead as individuals and citizens. I completely agree with you. I think I would also describe Joanne Lockwood: myself as an educator rather than an activist. And as you're talking now, I'm thinking, I've almost in my own mind thinking. When activist talks without listening, an educator's first, first tool is listening before talking. And it's trying to understand where people are and meet them where they are first, rather than telling everybody where you are. It's a slightly different approach. And I think I use the word thought leader in your introduction. And that's part of that. It's leading thought, isn't it? It's bringing people around the table to have these conversations and disarming people and saying, hang on a minute, we're not going to solve anything by being at polar opposites here. Yeah. And I think an important part Dr. Cedric Howard: of being. What I have learned about the convenience of leaders is that you may have content, but it's also important to have context. Because when you have content with context, you have clarity. And what I have decided to do, especially in my sphere of influence working with higher education deans, vice presidents and presidents, is say, have we thought about the context by which we're going to present this content? And that's where we've been able to leverage games and really come off from the perspective of everything that we feel may not be felt or seen by those that are making decisions. Almost every incident, every public institution in the United States reports up, ultimately, through a community or state board, a politician. And so not to acknowledge that public's desire has some influence on that politician, which has influence on your funding, is a fallacy. It's a flawed thought. And so we got to begin with that first. And so leveraging the thoughts is saying, timeout. What is important to you as a politician? What is important to you as a power broker? What is important to you as a part of the citizens and the community that you serve? That's where we should begin, because we should be the community's college or the Community's university and not a, and not an ecosystem or organisation or a structure onto ourselves. And that's where I have learned being, you know, considered a thought leader is because I have said my primary customer in higher education are students. And what I do is create an environment where access and success becomes the guiding principles for leading decisions that ultimately serve our primary customer, which are students. And when we get that as the focal point, then we can make more, we can make much more meaningful, direct and intentional decisions that support the students that we ultimately serve. How do you make sure that you're humanising the Joanne Lockwood: individual? Because sometimes when you're making decisions at a politician level, at a campus level, whatever it may be, it's too easy to see a student as an entity rather than the breadth and depth, the intersectionality, the individual within that. And how do you bring out the human into your model? Dr. Cedric Howard: Well, I think the most important thing is to make sure that at every stage of the decision making process you're involving students to bring that voice. Because as a senior level administrator or as you know, when I'm being interviewed, I'm thinking in the macro because I'm trying to get a point across to the, to the masses. But storytelling is extremely important. That's why, you know, from every phase of development and every point of discussion actually have a student that is part of that process. Oftentimes I have a couple students because they have different storeys to tell and they have different experiences. So making sure that we involve students, one of the things that I have learned, and this is important lesson I think is critical for the, for, for your listeners and a part of our conversation. Too often those that are in power are making decisions based upon who is funding or who is giving input into their decision making process and they're not involved in the people that are being affected. And so for me, I began just the opposite to say, okay, let me truly understand what is the problem. So I go to the people that are affected first, understand the problem and then I develop a solution based upon the programme, the policy and or procedure that actually addresses the problem. And I think that's how you resolve the issue of the voices of the individuals that are being affected. Start with them first. Don't create an issue or problem based upon the funding source and or the political influence that may craft a statement for you because their interests have already been met. Go to the people that are going to be affected and start there first, because now you can craft something that is actually meaningful and intentional and actually get to address what the issues actually are. Yeah, no, I see that. And you're right. Sometimes you got to ask, ask Joanne Lockwood: the money what their motivation is. Yes, yes. And often just to make more money. You gotta understand the person's why, because that's what Dr. Cedric Howard: drives them. And, you know, you gotta also understand the process. The process determine the product that you produce. And so in my process or processes that I lead, I make sure I have all effective parties at the table so that they can engage in conversation and inform decisions as we're moving forward. You Joanne Lockwood: mentioned earlier that you're a first generation college graduate. Dr. Cedric Howard: Yes. That implies to me that you're not the last. See, Joanne Lockwood: you're now the beginning of your new family tree. Yes. Dr. Cedric Howard: So very briefly. So go back to the storey of undergraduate career. So a year Later, June of 94, I graduated and I happened to be the first in my family to ultimately graduate. So my, my, my grandmother came and I've kind of told this storey because it became the genesis of the new iteration of our family. My grandmother came and my grandmother's 5:1, and she said, you know, can I have your gown? And I said, no, the gown belongs to me. And she says, you know, in this, you know, very direct Southern grandmother voice, baby, if you want to see tomorrow, you will give your nana the gown. I said, yes, ma'. Am. So I took the gown off and I gave it to her. At that point in time, it was myself and 11 cousins. I'm the only child. My father was the only child. So on that side, I was only child. On my other side of my mother's side, my maternal side, I'm the oldest of the grandkids. And so my grandmother asked for my cousins to get into this gown. And she says, from this standpoint, each of you owe me a college graduation gown. That is my expectation for you. I don't want any money. I want college graduation gowns. That day set the trajectory of my entire family. We're very fortunate. There's 18 of us now. All 18 have college degrees. My mother, who was a young mother who gave birth to me out of wedlock and eventually we were born into, at that point in time, what was welfare, went back to college and went to college when she was in her late fourth 40s. And then 14 years later, 14 years later, she's the second doctor my firstborn happens to be. We consider her to be the real doctor because she actually has a medical degree. She graduated college with her first degree at 16, medical school to 21, and now at 26, she's a practising neurologist. And then we, my son, we refer to him as the slacker, in part because he's the naval officer and actually serves in our US Navy. He only has one degree, so he just graduated a year ago. So we told him he need to step up his game a bit. But I say all that to say, not that anything was special about our family other than there was an inflection point. It was an inflection point where my grandmother said, enough is enough, you know, I'm tired of us having this cycle of poverty. And here's now the new expectation. And so, you know, the youngest, when he just graduated about a week or so ago, he's taking his gown and actually in a couple of days we're going to have a ceremony because his 18th gown that we'll put actually, my grandmother's no longer with us and so we'll put it actually on the chest on her grave. And that will bring that version of her vision to fruition. But it has set a trajectory for a new version of her, who we are. And I would say for generations to come, we would tell the storey of my grandmother in part because that day it changed the trajectory of our family. Joanne Lockwood: That's really powerful. It's so powerful. I didn't get a degree, I didn't go to any university, I joined the Royal Air Force, so I joined the. I had a military career when I left school and my father didn't have a degree either and my mother didn't have a degree. When I was growing up, she went back to become a teacher and she got a degree. I was already an adult, so I can't really claim that she was a previous generation degree holder. She went back afterwards. But our two children, our daughter and our son, both had degrees when I grew up. It was never an expectation, that part of the education, it was. I was brought up in a trade apprenticeship rather than the professional side, so my destination was electronics and engineering, but I didn't need a degree for that. So, yeah, I mean, all of the fact that you started this tradition within your own family and created this because it's a belief system. If my parents said to me, the expectation in our family is for you to get a degree, my life would have gone that direction. But they didn't. Which. It's not good or bad. It is, but, yeah, I think fair onto your nana. Yeah. And I think, you know, Dr. Cedric Howard: for many, when they actually, you know, when I, when I do keynotes and I do speaking engagements, people actually shock so you promote people to go to college and get a degree. No, I promote you to get an education. And for some people your education is to go to trade school or your, your education is to learn how to do the business that you're seeking. For me and my path is I need to get a college degree but for others it may be that you are going to become an electrician or you're going to get a trade. I promote that there should be some post secondary education that prepares you to have a job or trade that provides support for you and resources for you to live. That is what I promote as an educator because college and the academy, college of the university is not for everyone. And I say that, you know, if you have a tree and you're skilled with your hands, go for it. My son knew that he wanted to go into the military and so the compromise was that hey, you can do this, here's a programme for you to go through. If you're going to do it, consider being an officer. Well, he was very fortunate in order, in order for that to occur. But he got his degree and, and, and, and, and he got his degree in naval science because that's what he knew he wanted to do. He didn't get it in another discipline. He knew he wanted to go into Navy, he knew he wanted to be a lifer, that's what he wanted to do. The compromise was to get a degree. But if he were to say to me, I want to go directly in and he was passionate. We've been like son, we're supporting you, we support you just longest, you're going to have training and you're going to have a skill set and a trade to live off of. That is the most important thing from our perspective. When you talk there about the Joanne Lockwood: educational side and the financial independence, it reminds me of the tsunami that was in the 2004 Sri Lanka and India and around that area. And I was involved helping people post that tsunami funds, whatever. And I also got involved with a programme that they used to have in India called Freedom through Education. And I didn't understand what it was until it was explained to me that freedom education was allowing the Indian population to break free of colonialism. So that was the freedom from colonialism through education. But you can apply that metaphor, you generate life choices and freedom by being educated, by being marketable, by having skills, by having a value in society. So what you're doing there is you're giving people a worth, aren't you? Through education? Yeah, and Dr. Cedric Howard: essence real important. So I give I'm going to give you a fact that that's going to probably shock you because it shocks many. Now I've been in higher education, like I said now for 31 years. I'm also an entrepreneur. So I have a consultant firm that works with leaders and I have a couple other companies that fall up under my larger umbrella. I have made more money from being an entrepreneur than I have from being an educator. So my entrepreneurial aspects and spirit actually funds for me being a college administrator. And so that's why I say I can't frown upon someone who has a spirit to learn and they may not want to go sit in a classroom for four or five, six years, but they can go through an eight week programme, become an entrepreneur and be a successful business person, they can run a successful trades operation. Why would I promote that? Why wouldn't I support that? You know, when I look at my cousin's action number four, because my grandmother referred to us, not by name, she referred to us when she was alive by numbers. So she called you by your numbers. I don't think she ever knew all of our names, she just called, you know, she always got the number right. But number four actually went into the Navy first and then got out of the Navy after 20 years. And that's when she went to college, became a paralegal and now she's an attorney. Now imagine if we would have said, no, you got to go to school first. She would have been like, no, that would just not. Would not have been her. So give people the agency to go down the path that is most suitable for their desires and who they are as individuals. Ultimately the life satisfaction and happiness is a lot more, is a lot more rewarding from that perspective other than forcing people to do things because, you know, that's the fad of the day. That is, you know, the issue du jour and it is the, you know, the, for lack of better. It's a sexy thing. No, I want it to be sound, not sexy. I want to make sure that it is going to be sustainable. And you know, that's where I say that's real talk. That's the educator in me that says, yes, you could do it, but how you do it may be very different than how others do it. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I think it's also important for young people to appreciate. You don't have to get it right first time when you're 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, that age. We often end up making these decisions in our life that we get to our late 20s and go actually, I'm on the wrong bus. I should be over somewhere doing something else. And I think we too often expect our younger people to have a destination before they're ready to find one because. We have these Dr. Cedric Howard: fallacies and scripts. And I said there's four things we have to address in any situation to change your trajectory. For one, we have to address, I call them the hates. You have to address the habits, you have to address the attitudes, you have to address the beliefs, and you also have to address the expectations. That event that occurred for me when I graduated changed a habit in our family. It also changed our attitudes about what we can accomplish. Then we change our belief system to say, no, this is attainable. And now we have established a set of expectations that has allowed us to put systems that are in place. And so, you know, for us and our family, because it is a belief system, we have structures in place to ensure that you're going to get the degree that you seek. So, you know, you don't have to worry about the funding because we have a family nonprofit that is set up and trust set up to pay for those things. The more successful we become as a family, the more resources that are available for the next generation. And so by addressing your age, your habits, your attitudes, your beliefs and your expectations, you can rewrite the mental models and you can rewrite the self talk and a set of systems or that are either supporting you and, or holding you back to make sure that they're aligned appropriately to get you to where you need to be. Most successful people have failed oftentimes many more times than they have succeeded, but they've learned how to deal with that failure. And that is how, you know, you understand that successful people become successful because they properly learn how to process failures. So, so they don't, so they don't continue to go down those same path. I oftentimes prefer it's the R and D method for individuals. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I saw a study, I can't remember where I saw it, but it's around A grade. Students are less likely to be entrepreneurs because they've never experienced failure in the same way that a D grade student or an E grade student has always had to live with that failing and retrying mentality and, and they learn how to be more resilient. Dr. Cedric Howard: Yeah, I wrote an article, I don't know, probably 15 years ago that many universities was kicking out after the first year, more 4.0 high school students than they were the 2.5 high school students because the fools had gotten to college. And they had to learn the survival skills, the grit and resiliency in order to be able to be successful. They were used to a routine not figuring things out versus at 2.5, it had some adversity. And they've learned to figure things out in a way that was productive and sustainable within a college environment. Don't learn to walk without falling Joanne Lockwood: over. You have to bump your head, graze your knee. First time you ride a motorbike, you're hanging on, you know you've got it, you got to get it wrong to get it right. Imagine your kids and my kids, Dr. Cedric Howard: every time they fell, we ran over to, to pick them up. They would never learn how to walk. And so we have to allow them to scrape some things, some, you know, you know, first in order for them to develop the chops, in order to accomplish the things they need to accomplish. Joanne Lockwood: Is that one of the challenges we face in today's society where we've tried to minimise failure, we've tried, everyone's a winner, everyone's an ad. Everyone has come first. We don't, we don't pick out the winners and losers anymore because you don't want to make the losers feel bad. Dr. Cedric Howard: Everyone gets a trophy, everyone gets a participation trophy versus everyone should have gotten the experience for participating. And the reward was that you got the experience. And so I think what we have done is said we want to make sure that everyone is going to be valued and seen. I'm not saying disrespect. What I'm saying is that there's lessons to be learned from the challenges and there's lessons from, learn from the experiences, trial and error. So that when you're not there as a parent, when you're not there as a support structure, they're able to survive. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I quite happily admit I've spent a lot of my life making mistakes and I'm better for it. It's only when you make the same mistake repeatedly that you're not learning if you are. Every new experience and throughout my 20s, teens, 20s, 30s, I've made some huge mistakes in my life. Some of them, I look back and go, oh, blimey, I was lucky to get away with that, or I didn't get away with it and I deserved not to sort of thing. And yeah, you mess up. But now I'm 60 and I look back and think I've got all those big value pillars in my life that I can look back on and go, actually, I've got core value as a result of that. And I'VE got another core value to honesty. Integrity came out of being in situations where I was wanting for those things and I was coming short and they made me realise that actually I don't want to have no integrity and I don't want to have no honesty. Those are now my. A bit like that film is inside out where you make the core memories drop them down the chute. I think these core memories develop myself and I know who I am now based on those significant self critical moments. Yeah, yeah, that is critical. You Dr. Cedric Howard: know, I tell you a storey. One of the physicians asked my daughter said so you know, you're so much younger than us. I have kids older than you, you know, how, how do you stand up to us? How do you, you know, because when we're in a situation you are commanding the room and you're so young. And she says my daddy put me in situations where he knew I was going to fail and he never rescued me. So when I'm in this environment and we're in the middle of a crisis, I have learned the skills. That is not about the characteristics that I asude as or you see as a person. It's the characteristics that I'm bringing to the situation are to resolve it. So I don't see you as an elder, I don't see you as. I see you as another medical provider and we're equals. Can we address the issue of our patients? Because she understands the lessons that I've taught about serving students and they should be the core of what you do. Her patients are her students and that's the environment that she's in. I put in some in a situation where I knew that she was going to fail. You know, she was 11 or 12 and I put her in basketball. She doesn't have an athletic bone in her body. I knew she was going to fail but she learned, she didn't give up. She ultimately, you know, got better at it and better at it and before four or five years later, I mean she was one of the top basketball players in our state and you know, and ultimately played basketball in college. But she tells the storey of my dad put me in an environment and I kick and I claw and I was like I hate you. And I later realised that was the best thing ever happened to me. Same as my son, I put him in wrestling because I knew he was not a good wrestler and he struggled but now he's learned how to struggle. And so sometimes as parents, sometimes as more experienced citizens, we got to put the younger generations, the younger generation in situations where they can learn and grow, be there in case they really fall. But don't pick them up every time they struggle because they're learning skills, grit, resilience, that'll be much more conducive for them as adults than had we not put them in environments that we got put in, put into you. Because you know, oftentimes our generation just go out and play, just come back, you know, at a certain time, figure it out, figure out a game to play, you know, figure this situation out. It is those problem solving skills that I think are critically important as a part of the situation. And that's what I also bring with me into higher education. This is not a complex situation. It is a relatively simple situation. There's personalities involved that make it complex. So let's remove the personality and let's actually address what is the core issue. Because if we address the core issue, the symptom goes away. And so when there's complex situation, let's take a step back. I use a five step process I refer to as the nerdy way. It's something that I publish in one of my books. And nerdy stands for the N is actually an acronym for knowledge, education, research, discovery for you. So you look at your knowledge base, you look at what you do and you, what you know and what you don't know, then you educate yourself. That's the key. What, what, where things, what should things be? What are all the information I need in order to make a decision? The research is actually the active learning piece where I'm actually learning how to apply skill set. And then you discover a new you and that new you is what you implement moving forward. That's how I address complex situation. Tell me what I know. That's my current knowledge. I educate myself, which is the process. The research is actually the application of what I'm doing. Because you're testing things, you're experimenting and then I come out a better person. That's the discovery for you. And that is a bit of a method that I've used to deal with almost every complex situation. And to this day is always bode well in order to take a complex situation, simplify and make a lot easier for people to consume. Joanne Lockwood: That's a great model and I think that holds you in good stead as you get older and older because it also helps you delegate as well. I think you don't have to do everything yourself. What you're doing there is you're coordinating the resources that you need to succeed in whatever you're Doing as an entrepreneur, as an employee, wherever you are in that. And by using that model, what you're doing is you're mapping out what you need to succeed next. Because Dr. Cedric Howard: remember, oftentimes when you're dealing with issues, you don't have to be the content expert. You just have to have that connection and serve as a connector through the connective tissue with the content expert in order to resolve the situation and or issue. It's Joanne Lockwood: like being an astronaut. You need telemetry, you need data, you need trajectory, you need to know conditions, you need to go, okay, now I can plot my course, and then how am I going to get home again? So you've got all those parameters in there to make the best decisions is what you're looking for, isn't it? Absolutely. But also as an astronaut, that Dr. Cedric Howard: is central command and the control unit's job to figure all that stuff out. Your job is to serve as the pilot of the craft, as you use another example, trusting your team. Yeah, you're the jockey. You Joanne Lockwood: just got to push the button at the right time or hang on in there when it gets. Yes, yes. You know, Dr. Cedric Howard: I've learned because I spent some time in England in 2009 and 10, I was actually working to assist Parliament as they re look at the academy structure, very similar to the US system. And one thing I learned is your version of football, what we call soccer, that it is truly not just a sport, it's a lifestyle. And that the communities and city, cities by which these clubs are in really galvanise around the particular club. And then of course, there's when to go to elevation and those type of things. So it reminds us kind of of the situation. The clubs need the communities that they reside in. The communities need the clubs because the soccer teams become an economic driver for those particular communities and a sense of pride. And so you need each other to support each other in order for all parts and partners to be successful. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. And the team brings the community together. You've got something to get behind. The wins, the losses, the hope, the dreams, the, the celebrations. And that shared lived experience all comes from that sporting occasion, doesn't it? I think you have it in the US as well. We have the basketball, you have the ice hockey, you have the college football, the varsities, you have the same things, don't you, in your own way. Dr. Cedric Howard: Yeah, but our version of it is NFL football, professional football, it's kind of similar. It's just, you know, the tackle football is what everybody kind of galvanise around and drive communities to support each other. You're either a football, Joanne Lockwood: American football fan or a hockey fan or a basketball. You tend to polarise again around your sport tribe, don't you? Dr. Cedric Howard: That is certainly the case. The most divided time at any time is the moment that your team is playing. That is the most divided time in any community and or organisation, because you're always supporting your team. Yeah. And as you're Joanne Lockwood: probably aware, in the uk, we've got a lot of clubs, big clubs in. So Manchester's got two big clubs, Liverpool's got two big clubs, London's got half a dozen big clubs. And where I live, Portsmouth, we've got a rival club just down the road called Southampton. So we've always been this. The red team and the blue team and other cities you get the red team and the blue team. It really plays into that, that sort of tribalism and partisanship. It's for the good. But sometimes it does spill over into excess passion sometimes, doesn't it? Yeah, sometimes when we allow the liquid Dr. Cedric Howard: courage libation to get involved, the interventions kind of go away and we kind of get a little bit more animated than we should. Here's a metaphor. Joanne Lockwood: That's where we need to duct tape our people to a lamppost, isn't it? Well said, my friend. Well said. I still think that's insightful that you found the duct tape and you had the foresight to think this is the way of de escalating. Great insight. Yeah, well, Dr. Cedric Howard: kind of the metaphor in my life is duct tape has held so many things together in my life, especially as a youth. I knew that it was going to hold whatever it was stuck to. And so it was kind of my genesis in higher education. And it's kind of what I've used to hold things together throughout life. It reminds me of the storey, your Joanne Lockwood: particular one, as you were. As you were telling your duck tape storey at the beginning, it reminded me of a situation I was in probably 20 years ago. I was in his club and a friend of mine decided that he was too lazy to go to the restroom to use the toilet. He decided he wanted to nip out the fire exit and just do his business just outside, because it was a lot easier. And of course, he set the alarm off on the fire exit. He came back in and then security surrounded him. So there's probably about five or six big, big security guards. Six, four, six, five. And it was kind of middling and they just surrounded him. And I looked at this and thought, it's like a bear pit, you know, he was like being baited by these people. He was a bit drunk. He'd lost his rational mind. And I could just see this going really badly wrong. They wanted to arrest him, throw him out, kick him. I don't know. This was going really bad. For some reason I had the foresight to just walk into the middle of the circle and put my arms around him and give him the biggest hug and he's going to get off me. I said, I'm not letting you go. If I let you go, this is going to end badly. You must now listen to me. Shut up and just be compliant. Listen to my voice. Listen to my voice. And he calmed down. I said to everybody, I've got him, I've got him, it's okay, I'll walk him out. And they went, okay, and we over to diffuse and walk it out. And that was my duct tape moment. It just takes that, that, that calmness to just take the heat out of that situation. Doesn't. Dr. Cedric Howard: Takes someone to diffuse the situation, but you don't know it. In a moment, it becomes somewhat instinctive. You just knew that you needed to do something. And in reflection, post mortem is when you look at and say, I don't know if I should have done that, but it resolved the issue. Joanne Lockwood: Well, I think we all need to have a group of friends with a safe word. So that when things are, when you are not thinking through your rational brain, your amygdala kicked in, not your prefrontal cortex, you're really into that adrenaline mode. Someone just needs to come up with that word. And you go, ah, that's my de. Escalation word. Okay. Like picking a cat up by the back of the neck. It goes all floppy. Yeah, it just, we just need that, that something to just trigger your front brain going, I get it now I'm being an ass. I need to stop. Yeah, Dr. Cedric Howard: absolutely. Especially in this era of cameras and social media because it lives forever. You much rather take a, have a moment to pause and for someone to say, hey, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm, I'm going to intervene. You could be upset with me for the moment, but this moment won't live forever because when it escalates, you know, and gets out of head, it's going to be a lot worse when you see it and you're going to say, you should have stopped me. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And usually, well, I couldn't stop you. That's what I mean. We just need that, need that magic click, don't you? To go, ah, okay, I get it now and you say duct tape them to the lamppost or give them a massive hug, something like that, just to snap them out. Isn't that what Dr. Cedric Howard: friends are for? That's exactly what friends are for. Yeah. You need them in a time of concern and crisis. That's a true friend that can intervene in that point in time when things are, you know, going well, you know, friends are there, but you don't really need them. You need them in a time of crisis and concern. You need people who are going to intervene on you in your stead. I think that's. That's critically important for life and that's a life lesson we can all take from, you know, with us, from this particular conversation. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, no, that's. That's a. That's an excellent takeaway for me. Is duct taping your friend to a lamppost just to save him. Yes. I like it, I like it, I like it. Yeah. Don't recommend it as a. As I carrying the duct tape every time, but at least the metaphor is real. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Cedric, it's been absolutely fascinating. We can rabbit on for. For hours. I know. Tell me how people get ahold of you. So simple way to follow me is Dr. Cedric Howard: on social media and. Or my website. So social media is always Cedric B Howard, C E, D R I C B Howard. And my website is cedricbhoward.com and so you can always follow me on all the major social media platforms and on my website. Excellent. Well, we're connected on LinkedIn, Joanne Lockwood: so when this episode goes out, I'll make sure your LinkedIn's tagged and it'll go out on Instagram as well. And all your social links will be in the show notes below. So, yeah, absolutely fantastic. So, Cedric, thank you so much for your time. It's been amazing having a chat. Dr. Cedric Howard: Thank you, my friend. As we bring this Joanne Lockwood: conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing into Inclusion bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world. One episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.