---
title: "Creating a level playing field in attitude and action"
episode: 19
date: 2020-12-10
guest: "Sarah Burrell"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/19-creating-a-level-playing-field-in-attitude-and-action
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-019/audio.mp3
---

# Creating a level playing field in attitude and action

Joanne Lockwood is joined by trainer and inclusion consultant Sarah Burrell to explore what it really takes to create a level playing field in both attitude and action. They discuss why inequality is systemic and historical, and how the language and practice of privilege can be used constructively to empower others and move beyond “lip service” toward measurable change. Sarah shares reflections from her own lived experience, including navigating a speech impairment, and how that shapes her approach to advocacy, empathy, and creating environments where people can contribute in the ways that work best for them. The conversation looks at disability and work, inclusive communication, and the value of proactively asking about support needs and preferred communication methods. They also examine hiring and progression: the difference between tokenistic gestures and positive action, the limitations of meritocracy when people start from different points, and the responsibility leaders and organisations have to build inclusion into recruitment, induction, and day-to-day management. Finally, they reflect on how the pandemic accelerated flexible and inclusive ways of working, and what it will take to sustain that progress rather than slipping back to old habits.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Episode 19: Creating equal opportunities with Sarah.
- 10:16 — Trust, understanding crucial before deeper relationships.
- 11:50 — Proactive cultural change for systemic anti-discrimination.
- 17:28 — Why prioritise hiring disabled over non-disabled applicants?
- 23:28 — Covid fostered inclusion and empathy in workforces.
- 32:00 — Parenting fosters emotional intelligence and valuable skills.
- 37:46 — BBC promotes diverse visibility through proactive measures.
- 40:52 — Company's diversity plan seems more inclusive than BBC's.
- 45:48 — Speech impairment hinders workplace communication significantly.
- 51:40 — Are awareness campaigns creating real change?
- 58:57 — London potential stalled; Covid changed can-do mindset.
- 01:04:21 — Eager to learn more about improving engagement.
- 01:06:49 — Share, contact, or suggest improvements via email.

## Key takeaways

- The challenges and benefits of remote work for people with disabilities, and the importance of empathy and proactive engagement.
- The risks of reducing employees to their disabilities and the need for holistic, personalised support.
- The unseen resilience and problem-solving skills of people with disabilities and their suitability for various roles.
- Strategies for embedding changes in workplace culture to prevent regression to pre-pandemic norms.
- Practical guidelines for inclusion in online events and meetings, emphasising user-centred adaptations.
- The impact of anxiety on workplace communication and the importance of addressing it for a truly inclusive environment.
- Insights on personal development and continuous dialogue to enhance diverse and inclusive recruitment and engagement practices.

## FAQs

### What is the primary focus of this episode?

The episode titled "Creating a Level Playing Field in Attitude and Action" centres on addressing workplace inclusivity and equality, particularly for individuals with disabilities, and the broader impact of proactive engagement and flexible work environments necessitated by the COVID-19 pandemic.

### Who is the guest on this episode?

The guest is Sarah Burrell, a professional specialised in diversity and inclusion. She is a trainer, consultant, event organiser, and public speaker with a focus on active listening as her identified "superpower".

### How has COVID-19 impacted workplace inclusivity?

COVID-19 has accelerated the adoption of flexible and remote working arrangements, often transforming previously rigid workplace policies into more inclusive and adaptable environments. This shift prompted organisations to transition from a "can't do" to a "must do" mentality regarding inclusivity.

### What historical reference is used to illustrate the need to maintain progress in accessibility?

Sarah Burrell refers to the 2012 London Olympics, where significant accessibility improvements were made but later saw a decline. This serves to illustrate the importance of consistently upholding progressive changes in accessibility and inclusivity.

### Why is empathy and proactive engagement crucial in remote work?

Empathy and proactive engagement are essential in supporting remote work to ensure all employees feel included and understood. This approach helps address potential isolation and anxiety, particularly for individuals with disabilities, fostering a more equitable work environment.

### What did Sarah Burrell’s article "Silver Linings of a Pandemic" highlight?

The article highlights the inadvertent inclusivity stemming from flexible working conditions during the COVID-19 pandemic, which offered new accessibility opportunities for people with disabilities.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series, I will be interviewing a number of amazing people and simply having a conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive. If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a line to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk. That's S-E-E Change Happen dot Co dot Uk. You'll be to get top of all of the previous shows on iTunes, Spotify. And the usual places. So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf and let's get going. Today is episode 19 with the title creating a level of playing field in attitude and action. I have the absolute honour and privilege to be joined by Sarah Burrell. I met Sarah a few years back at a diversity and inclusion event in London and we've been friends ever since. Sarah describes herself as a trainer, consultant, event organiser and public speaker. I asked Sarah to describe her superpower and she said, active listening. Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the show. Hi,

Sarah Burrell: Jo to be here. Thank you for having me, Dave. No, it's absolute pleasure. I mean, we've been friends for a long

Joanne Lockwood: time. So tell me, why is it so important that we need to create this level playing field, both attitude and action? I

Sarah Burrell: think that this ties in nicely to the recent issue that's been raised by Black Lives Matter, is that actually we have a systemic issue that is historic and we need to recognise where we stand within that and actually what we can do to empower others as well as ourselves.

Joanne Lockwood: And I think that people don't realise.

Sarah Burrell: Without questioning themselves where they stand on. What context

Joanne Lockwood: they can assist with this movement. Let's

Sarah Burrell: say. I think that the concept to get grounded in is privilege, how we can use it, because we talk about privilege day in, day out, and we don't really talk about how we can utilise it. And actually, part of the reason why we need an equal level is because we're not equal yet, we're not on that pain field. And so when we use our privilege in the way that we can, we learn to invest in potential instead of meritocracy. Actually, meritocracy only works when we start.

Joanne Lockwood: At the same point. But

Sarah Burrell: unfortunately, differences in life, in support, in disability, in indifference, does not allow that equalness to pay out. We live in an unequal world and we need to champion and support and. Courage and

Joanne Lockwood: invest in potential, as opposed. To always thinking

Sarah Burrell: about where we are actually at. That makes sense. It

Joanne Lockwood: does. And you're definitely pushing some of my favourite buttons here and things I talk about. And let's go back. You mentioned about privilege. What does privilege mean to you as a white girl or a white woman? What does that mean to you? I think that my own privilege is. That,

Sarah Burrell: yes, I'm white, and yes, I have an education and I actually have a voice. And although my voice isn't. I got a speech impairment. Obviously, I meant to prefer. Meant to say that beforehand, but actually I have a speech impairment, which does. Bring up. My ways in which I am not equal. But let's go back to privilege a minute. So my privilege is that I have a monumental, monumental part of privilege is knowing where to invest in potential in the world. And I feel that my privilege. I discuss and talk about and push for change around things that are unequal. And I push

Joanne Lockwood: for systemic change because. There'S

Sarah Burrell: too much of a difference to even think about being an equal pain to it yet. And so I use my voice, my platform, to empower other people to raise their voice as well and let them be heard. And I speak on behalf of those who do not feel confident enough to speak. And I speak for those who do not feel like they can. And I represent speech impairment.

Joanne Lockwood: I am.

Sarah Burrell: Terrified of speaking in recorded sessions like this one, actually. But I feel that my passion overrides my fear. And an

Joanne Lockwood: investment, if you like, is.

Sarah Burrell: More than my own negativity. It's much more. So this is much more important than thinking about my own speech and how I'm coming across, because the message is so important. So that's how I navigate my privilege in a bit. But there's still a lot more to go in my own head. But I do think if we can ground some of the elements of privilege. That

Joanne Lockwood: we hold and put those into.

Sarah Burrell: Action to try and make a culture which does raise up others to an equal, we can start there.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I understand completely. What I found sometimes is that when you challenge somebody and say they're privileged, or you say, have you checked your privilege? Or do you understand your privilege? People get very defensive, don't they, when they ask to think about the privilege they have, almost saying that they don't feel they have a privilege. So would you say to them.

Sarah Burrell: I'm careful to avoid the direct question, because you're right, that can cause a conflict. And actually, that conflict goes like that. Uncomfort

Joanne Lockwood: in the conversation can put a pause on rapport. And

Sarah Burrell: so through building rapport and trust in proactive engagement, builds that level of trust to enable us to have that conversation. And I think that it's important to point out it's like bias, isn't it? Unconscious bias is not a negative thing, necessarily, and privilege is not a negative. Thing,

Joanne Lockwood: but people are.

Sarah Burrell: People associate the word bias or the. Word

Joanne Lockwood: privilege with negativity, when actually. It'S

Sarah Burrell: the opposite. And we can utilise

Joanne Lockwood: our privilege in. A positive

Sarah Burrell: way to shift culture forward. And so I avoid direct questions because. Of

Joanne Lockwood: the want to build.

Sarah Burrell: A relationship before going deeper, because I think that's very important for people to have that level of trust and level of understanding before going into. Going into too much about that. I think it is a triggering thing with people in it, especially surrounding the Black lives Matter movement. It's become too right. Black Lives Matter has finally become global thing. And finally, this tragedy after tragedy we see in the world was blind eye to it. It was a blind eye. There was a bystander effect there. And now it's not so much. Now there's an anti racism movement rather than ignorance, rather than turning away, but learning how to implement day to day strategies that enable and empower systemic change. And don't just pay lip service to that. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: for sure. I think you're right. It is about recognising. It's a systemic cultural change that needs to occur, not just in the individual who have someone who's privileged. Because I think most of the pushback you often get is, well, I'm not racist, but as you said, it's about being antiracist. It's about being proactive in your passion and your advocacy and stepping up and stepping forward, or leaning in, as the Zane goes, to give support to people, not just when we talk about racism, when we talk about attitudes towards disability or whatever that may be. Yeah. And I think

Sarah Burrell: that that's no more clear than talking about inequality in a general sense, because actually, when we look at disability, obviously I have a disability.

Joanne Lockwood: But I fought to go to a. Mainstream school,

Sarah Burrell: and so because I knew that. I wanted

Joanne Lockwood: an education, because I knew of negativity and the fight that. You have from the start,

Sarah Burrell: when you start at a different starting bites aren't the same. Having that knowledge, having that experience, does. Give huge. The gift of empathy. You get empathy from that and you learn to empathise with difference, you learn to empathise with people who experience maybe different challenges.

Joanne Lockwood: But a challenge, and less.

Sarah Burrell: And. Encouraging

Joanne Lockwood: people to be that fantastic. Person

Sarah Burrell: they can be in all part of it, to learn this, to learn how you learn best, how we can support you best, how you communicate in your way best. These are all things that we learn through a dialogue, a rapport, not through lip service, not through talking about it and actually having that open conversation with. Someone

Joanne Lockwood: about how they would like to. Be known as who they

Sarah Burrell: want to be called. These are all questions that we can.

Joanne Lockwood: Ask people to learn about them as. Individuals and create their

Sarah Burrell: individual story for that. And so that's how we can support people, by learning about them and learning. About what works for

Joanne Lockwood: them and tailoring to that. And then that

Sarah Burrell: enables them, that puts them on a pedestal, not pedestal, that. Gives them that boost because

Joanne Lockwood: they're learning how they learn.

Sarah Burrell: They're finding ways they need support. If you encourage that open dialogue, that open conversation and has you listening to, that's a brilliant way of not only building a person's confidence, but learning about. Yourself and learning about

Joanne Lockwood: what differences you. Can do in your life.

Sarah Burrell: I'm talking about, it's about empowerment and change, isn't it? Oh, for sure.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it is. And being personally accountable for change, isn't it? Rather than saying it's somebody else's problem, I could be the one as well. And we can see that in other aspects of our life. And we talk about sustainability, we talk about environmental, we talk about other things that we can take personal responsibility for in terms of our own footprint. And we have to do the same in terms of our impact on others as well, don't we? Of course. And I think

Sarah Burrell: that's part of the ownership within the personal development part of it. It's owning what you can do for people, owning what you can do for yourself.

Joanne Lockwood: When we are put at a level.

Sarah Burrell: Of discomfort, when we push through that discomfort and learn lessons about ourselves, we. Learn more about others by doing that,

Joanne Lockwood: for sure. Let me ask you a couple of, couple of questions. I was talking to somebody yesterday. I was talking to somebody yesterday and we were talking about positive action and tokenism in hiring. And they sent me a question which was, there's two candidates. One is an able bodied white man and the other person is a person with a disability. And they both have equal skills to prayer. So in terms of positive action, why should they pick the disabled person, the person with a disability? Their argument was that the person without a disability would be easier to hire. But we want to challenge that, don't we? When we're looking at this. I don't

Sarah Burrell: think it's about easy to hire. I think it's about not wanting to change the status quo.

Joanne Lockwood: And that's what challenge brings you. You have to change the mould and. That'S what

Sarah Burrell: people are starting to see. We all have

Joanne Lockwood: something to bring to a role and positive action is a.

Sarah Burrell: Good thing if it's. If it is, if it's fully understood. Because some people see personal action as an unfair thing or a shift in inequality. But actually the rubbishmen are here. I'm going to stop for 1 minute while the rubbish. Don't

Joanne Lockwood: worry, we've had people's mums on the conversation in the past, so it's okay. At least it's not the Amazon man or the Amazon person.

Sarah Burrell: This timing is perfect. Isn't it ridiculous? Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: This is an inclusive podcast. We're open to all contributions from more people. So don't worry about the rubbish man.

Sarah Burrell: Hoping they'll go away quickly.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it's okay, you're clear now. Go for it. Okay.

Sarah Burrell: Might come back for more. Hang on. You got a lot of

Joanne Lockwood: rubbish. Right now. I can see them. Yeah. So this just to prove to everybody that this podcast is live and raw. We don't mess around with lots of edits and cuts. This is kind of as it happens, we roll as we roll, don't we? Yeah, apparently, yeah. Cool.

Sarah Burrell: I think they're migrating away, I think hopefully. I think that's an important part,

Joanne Lockwood: lesson we've learned in this lockdown, that we have to bring our whole self to work and what that means, our whole home environment, and to sort of start judging people on their background, on Zoom calls, their children, their pets or other things going on in the background. I think we've got to learn to get over that now because this is the reality, isn't it? I mean, part of that which

Sarah Burrell: affects me, my. I host a peer to peer support group. I've been doing it for ever since COVID took hold. A weekly support group. And we have to navigate slow Internet. We have to gather people walking around with important things to say. And actually we just have to fight really the interference and listen to what everyone has to say despite their circumstance. And that is challenging because some people are walking around, you get kind of interruptions from left, right and centre and it's really challenging. But they also have really important things to say and you just have to try really hard to hear them. And

Joanne Lockwood: that is how ending. You hear a lot of people saying that it's much easier for people who are disabled or with a disability, whichever phrase you like to use, whichever terminology. Now we're in lockdown, you're working in your home environment, therefore your environment is geared around your accessibility needs. Is that true or are we just generalising that it's going to be better for people with disabilities to work from home. I think.

Sarah Burrell: This is a complicated question, Dave, actually access and inclusion over different things. And

Joanne Lockwood: although, yes.

Sarah Burrell: It can be more accessible to work from home for the. Single people, people with abilities, but. The isolation factor, the other things surrounding inclusion, the culture, the understanding and the trust, doing what we said before, asking no question, making sure support is there and making sure we have all we need, to have all the equipment we need to pursue in a comfortable way. I think that that's where we see positive shift with this, with COVID and I recently wrote an article about this. It was called silver linings of a pandemic, highlighting the almost inadvertent inclusive nature of workforces that has had to come about because people have children, people have people to take care of, people have different and require flexible working patterns. Surrounding Covid, there's been so many conversations surrounding empathy, being empathetic to our workforce because of this change, and I think that's a very positive thing. We have to grasp it, take hold and enhance it as we move forward now we're becoming a little bit more connected again. We had to make sure

Joanne Lockwood: that. Those

Sarah Burrell: proactive engagement with people, the proactive, empathetic method we've had to take over the past four months to enable people to work from home, to enable people to work around their children, to enable things to continue. There has to have been that empowerment, trust, engagement to respond to the crisis, and that can create a more cohesive, more collaborative approach to navigating the this pandemic. We need to take things from our lessons that are learned in the cultural shift we've had to go along and ensure we don't forget them moving forward in practise and how we can continue to support people, how we can continue to ask, engage in the right way, enable people to do their best job and reach potential. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: I hear everything you're saying there, and I think there's a danger that, say, employers as a grouping could often look at a disabled person or person with disability and assume their disability is the defining factor. So by saying, our great member of staff here is working from home, they're okay now, but what we're actually not doing is looking at that person in a person centric, holistic way. So we're actually this person, what's their family situation going out? Maybe it was their lifeline, they're living in isolation now, they're not having social contact. Maybe they love that extrovert, bubbly personality and they're really struggling for being isolated at home. So by just categorising someone as a person with a disability, disabled person, they must be better off now they're at home because it's more accessible, as you say. It's forgetting that inclusion element about understanding them as a human being, isn't it?

Sarah Burrell: And as you said, that's so crucial. The proactive things I've been talking about are all ways to respond actively to someone's needs in order to support them from home or in the workplace. And I think that going back to positive action and why we require someone who has equal foot qualifications and equal. Experience,

Joanne Lockwood: let's not forget that there's actually.

Sarah Burrell: A very unequal part of that, the part we do not see, because actually disabled people with disabilities, disabled people. For. Example, I go through a huge navigation of problem solving before I even leave the house. And

Joanne Lockwood: going through that all day, every. Day in our head, this problem solving,

Sarah Burrell: problem solving mechanism that is completely unseen, that makes us actually probably better for a job, actually, we have the ability to problem solve in record times. We do it all the time. And that's the part that is not seen, that is incredibly well hidden within a lot of people who are going through either cognitive or social disability or physical disability.

Joanne Lockwood: So much not seen that we inadvertently. Put in on a

Sarah Burrell: level playing field with someone who's equally qualified and equally experienced. But actually, I would argue that that's actually probably not true. For what you see on STV and what someone thoughts about and how actually got there, they're a very different story. That's what I would encourage people to think more about internalise and think a lot about. Because actually personal development and neurotocracy.

Joanne Lockwood: Do. Not go hand in hand if

Sarah Burrell: anyway, actually they do. A person's ability starts at a much different point and have to elevate themselves in order to be that equal. In envy, you always have to do. More,

Joanne Lockwood: you always have to set yourself. At a

Sarah Burrell: higher standard and know that going in. I know whenever I interviewed, before I started my own business and before I went into life for myself, I knew every interview I had to be that.

Joanne Lockwood: Much more qualified, that much more valued, that much more experience, because unfortunately so. Many interviewers and

Sarah Burrell: recruiters do not see your background, do not see your challenging.

Joanne Lockwood: Fight to get to equal pain field challenge for people. I think that's very common. I mean, we don't always see the lived experience of a parent and the valuable skills that being a parent, having a child, nurturing and developing a child. The educational aspect that maternal instincts that kick in when you have children, that should be seen as a life skill as well, because it breeds emotional intelligence, it breeds a different way of treating people and understanding people. And you get involved with far more than someone who isn't a parent. And often age brings experience. Okay, age can bring stick in the mud as well, but age does bring experience. And we all too often write people off in their early 50s when they've still got 20 good years of valuable skills and lift experience to bring to the office, haven't they?

Sarah Burrell: Yeah. I mean, thinking about that, what you did up, the differences, every element of. Diversity

Joanne Lockwood: brings something new, brings something that. Hasn'T been brought up before, bring something

Sarah Burrell: that is of value. But it only

Joanne Lockwood: comes into effect when we utilise strategic, inclusive processes.

Sarah Burrell: If we can be as diversity a workforce as you can get without inclusion, we will not see the value of that. That's the importance, what I recognise anyway. The importance

Joanne Lockwood: of inclusion and diversity. They have to go hand in hand in

Sarah Burrell: order to get the most value out of that diversity. And

Joanne Lockwood: that's where a real crux of.

Sarah Burrell: The conversation happened, because actually you can.

Joanne Lockwood: Hire the person with disability, but that's where the challenge starts, because you have to then operate inclusive leadership.

Sarah Burrell: And that's the point where you'll put the test, because only hiring someone different is positive and diverse. But utilising that positivity and diversity all comes with this understanding that difference brings innovation, difference can bring worth. We have to understand how we can support this person, how they best communicate their ideas, how they best learn, what. Time of day

Joanne Lockwood: are they better working. In,

Sarah Burrell: what structure works for them, what hours they are not able to function in, or wherever it might be.

Joanne Lockwood: There's a level of proactive engagement that needs to start right there when you hire someone from that point. Not six months online, not at the. Next review, not at a

Sarah Burrell: KTI performance review, not then, no. It starts at recruitment. It starts when you hire someone. And this is what a lot of people fear most. This is what people

Joanne Lockwood: hide behind a questionnaire with. And what I've been

Sarah Burrell: developing over the last few months is actually a holistic approach questionnaire that starts at induction, that. Starts

Joanne Lockwood: at that point, to learn, to. Build rapport, to learn how

Sarah Burrell: this person. Can bring value

Joanne Lockwood: without the fear, without. The dread, without the

Sarah Burrell: end. It's a two way conversation that doesn't end at the end of that meeting. It continues. We develop this, we develop our rapport, develop our conversation. And that questionnaire that you co create.

Joanne Lockwood: With this person will end up being their passport, their method to get their. Best value out

Sarah Burrell: of themselves, reach a potential in the full knowledge of the. Person who

Joanne Lockwood: manages them or the person who works with them. Works with them both. That's when you get equal partnership.

Sarah Burrell: That's when you get an equal pain field. That's when you get that support needed to equalise and transform the workplace and the culture. That's where that comes

Joanne Lockwood: in. Yeah. Excellent points. Excellent points. As I'm listening to that, while I'm hearing and thinking about. We're going back to the original questions about creating this level playing field in action actions, and I think you probably agree with me, or I hope you do, that. One of the things that is important is visible people visibility and role models. I know we don't like the word brave, we don't like the word role models often, but we do need people in the public eye who have representation of me, if you like. I was looking at LinkedIn the other day and there's this article about the BBC and how they are proactive in their amplification and visibility of people with disability. They suffered a lot in the last 1020 years of being seen as a very monoculture, very white, middle upper class organisation, and they've put some real proactive measures in place now. And I would say that from my own perspective, the BBC are quite a good benchmark and litmus test for what a good company looks like in terms of their attitude and culture. Do you have a view on that? Wow.

Sarah Burrell: Okay. So I actually disagree with that, not wholeheartedly. I actually think Channel four present a much better working model of inclusion. And BBC may have improved over the years. Yes. But there is, as with so many.

Joanne Lockwood: Big organisations, there is the.

Sarah Burrell: Tiers of hiring and at what level and the proportionality of the proportionality of management compared to entry level recruitment or compared to the space for going up in this organisation.

Joanne Lockwood: Has yet develop working, I believe, working strategies that effectively improve the span. Of

Sarah Burrell: diversity throughout the hierarchy. Where Channel four come in, they've had a diversity board for years.

Joanne Lockwood: They've hired diverse.

Sarah Burrell: They've hired diverse diversity people at all levels of management, of seniority in the board across. And their approach, channel for approach, and their five year plan looks much more inclusive, I would argue, than BBC's. I had a meeting with BBC a couple of years ago and I got senior executives in the room and I was talking about unconscious bias and they were all very positive in the room about what I could do to them, how I could help support their changes and implement change. But at the very end, I got. Passed on

Joanne Lockwood: to disability department, if you like, and with their.

Sarah Burrell: I would argue, the target, kind of targeted hiring strategy of the same people, which I, at. That time,

Joanne Lockwood: disagree with, because it was. Very much a divisive

Sarah Burrell: programme, I felt. And these. Although they were offered a contract for a year to learn, there was no further window for experience beyond that. And that demonstrates what we've been saying about the danger of action without a thought out plan. Going back to speech impairment, there are so few people, role models out there at management. Senior management director. Director levels.

Joanne Lockwood: Is not seen often.

Sarah Burrell: And this is where I see my privilege coming out. Although I hate the way I talk.

Joanne Lockwood: I hate that that's a difference for me. And

Sarah Burrell: it's still something I'm working on. That's still something I'm working on.

Joanne Lockwood: To. Feel comfortable in the way that I talk.

Sarah Burrell: But if I wasn't there here, doing what I'm doing as part of my business and my moral bites, to be that role model for someone that was out with a feature impairment, who doesn't. Feel confident

Joanne Lockwood: to be in a place of work.

Sarah Burrell: And that is not surprising, because, actually, so many workplaces do not know what. To

Joanne Lockwood: do with prepayment. And when people don't know what to do, they avoid it.

Sarah Burrell: They avoid it, and they'll come up with five excuses for not hiring someone legit, perhaps. But their real reason,

Joanne Lockwood: perhaps, is their. Fear

Sarah Burrell: of the unknown and not having the resources, the questions, the right tools to enable that person to feel comfortable, do their job well. And that's where the barrier comes down. And we have to continue, as you. Said,

Joanne Lockwood: being that role model for people who are not confident, are not.

Sarah Burrell: Able. To do that themselves.

Joanne Lockwood: You were talking about speech impairment and how it's a significant barrier both to you and to people with speech impediments in the workplace. What's your thoughts about the. Why? Is it because people haven't got the patience to listen to you actively? Or is it because people assume because you have a speech impairment, that you're less intelligent? Or is it a bit of both or bit of everything?

Sarah Burrell: It depends, QG, on who you're talking to, but I think, yes, it's a combination, because there are so few on this, there's so few people saying, right, this is what to do here. That's why there's that fear, and there's that barrier in understanding whether it's something. To

Joanne Lockwood: do with if.

Sarah Burrell: A person. I want to talk about preference nowadays, preference in a communication method is something I probably passionate about. And actually, we talk about preference and empowerment when it comes to gender and being, wanting to be referred to as the gender you identify as.

Joanne Lockwood: And so that question is out there. That question about, hey, what do

Sarah Burrell: you prefer to be referred to as once that's known, brilliant. But that's an unknown entity that you prefer that you would like to be.

Joanne Lockwood: Referred to as a woman, let's say.

Sarah Burrell: And when we ask the question, okay.

Joanne Lockwood: So what is your preferred method of. Communication

Sarah Burrell: that opens up so many doors that actually a person can then say, oh, well, I might not be confident in speaking, but I have great ideas that I want to communicate via email, or I have brilliant ideas, but I'm uncomfortable speaking in front of a whole room of people. Can we chat in a small group? These are things that can encourage people. To

Joanne Lockwood: think about how best they do. Things

Sarah Burrell: and how confident they can be. In getting a job done when they. Give in that option. And I think that's a huge question that isn't asked enough. I believe that if that question were. Asked

Joanne Lockwood: by employers, it would get much. More

Sarah Burrell: out of people.

Joanne Lockwood: And that's not just people's speech repellents, that's anybody. It's about being person centric, isn't it? Yes. We're being inclusive. We ask somebody, what can we do to help you? What can we do to make you succeed or help you succeed? The

Sarah Burrell: point that this brings up is that actually that conversation doesn't stop there. If someone says no,

Joanne Lockwood: or, oh, I. Don'T know yet, or whatever. That's part of personal development.

Sarah Burrell: And actually knowing that stuff can come. About through

Joanne Lockwood: learning about themselves. Don't expect an art to right

Sarah Burrell: away. You might not get one, you might. Get

Joanne Lockwood: passively thought out one. But what you want to do is open up dialogue, enable that individual to. Feel uncomfortable and work it

Sarah Burrell: out. Work out how they work best. Work out whether a festival schedule works for them, work out what time of day they invest. Right. We were saying before.

Joanne Lockwood: We both write. Better in the

Sarah Burrell: afternoon, and so why push ourselves to sit in front of a computer staring at a bank screen for hours? And actually, if we work better and more productively in a concentrated birth in the afternoon, we might get much more done and feel less frustrated and feel. Much more

Joanne Lockwood: content with ourselves and a. Much higher

Sarah Burrell: level of well being. If we work that out and we. Follow that

Joanne Lockwood: in the way we work. And that's all about making

Sarah Burrell: workplaces work waters workplaces a much more agile environment. Environment flexible, working out. You can faith to work out and it will change over time. Have you open and continue and leave. Open

Joanne Lockwood: that dialogue. For sure. It's making me think about, are we actually getting anywhere? We've got all these positive action campaigns, we've got all this awareness, we've got more hashtags than we can count now. We've got movements, we've got passionate people, we've got visibility, but are we really making a lot of difference? Are we getting anywhere, do you think?

Sarah Burrell: I think it's taking time, but actually.

Joanne Lockwood: This is the real silver lining of this combination of challenges that we have. Been working through

Sarah Burrell: since COVID came into alive. And actually the importance.

Joanne Lockwood: Of inclusive practise. And the

Sarah Burrell: urgency of inclusive practise.

Joanne Lockwood: When we began lockdown, companies, organ businesses.

Sarah Burrell: Around the world had to change ways. Of doing things, and that

Joanne Lockwood: happened very fast because they had to. And the urgency of all that drove. This monumental change,

Sarah Burrell: a shift in all. Practises,

Joanne Lockwood: almost remarkably fast, because the importance. Of

Sarah Burrell: change and the urgency of change. For the first time, I believe,

Joanne Lockwood: became equal. And so the

Sarah Burrell: change that was urgently. Needed

Joanne Lockwood: came to fruition. And to me,

Sarah Burrell: that just demonstrated that workforce can are able to change, but the urgency of it all to happen.

Joanne Lockwood: Before COVID before pandemic, wasn't urgent enough. And so what I'm trying to

Sarah Burrell: say. Here is that I think more

Joanne Lockwood: change. Has happened over the past

Sarah Burrell: four months. Than

Joanne Lockwood: decades because they've had to do. It in order to continue business.

Sarah Burrell: And that means changing up your communication, changing up your flexibility, changing up your working from home, changing up your interest in well being, because people working from. Home were

Joanne Lockwood: immediately kind of being thought of. Oh, okay. Is that person

Sarah Burrell: right there? Have they got what I need? Let's have a conversation. And inadvertently created flexibility, trust, empowerment, autonomy. Carefully choreographed.

Joanne Lockwood: But they had to, to accommodate the. Change climate and the work life

Sarah Burrell: balance has had to change and it become paramount in our inclusion initiatives have inadvertently. Become paramount in everyday

Joanne Lockwood: working, which is awesome. And I think that that's a

Sarah Burrell: really cool, collaborative, cohesive effect of navigating this. Pandemic,

Joanne Lockwood: utilising and generating technical, creating a. Technical

Sarah Burrell: transformation, really, about how we work. Brilliant. Amazing. That's what we've been trying to do for years. And finally it's coming out of the woodwork. Proactive engagement is happening, entities happening. All these things we've been fighting for, for years and years are actually starting to show their worth. And I think it's important to remember. I'll be going back down to sort of circle most.

Joanne Lockwood: Here. It is possible, yes, some jobs are. Not possible

Sarah Burrell: to do biking home and.

Joanne Lockwood: People have been really talents there and. We recognise

Sarah Burrell: privilege for that like never before. I just think it's really important to. Remember

Joanne Lockwood: what went on and what's going. On here

Sarah Burrell: in the workforce, change in. The workplace change,

Joanne Lockwood: a dynamic change that. Has to continue

Sarah Burrell: and I do think that is able to continue. We need to rip, hold tightly of.

Joanne Lockwood: What we've learned here. We can't let it go because like. The Olympics, when the Olympics came to. London, Joe, for our three month period, we thought access in London, brilliant. Oh,

Sarah Burrell: that's an accessible station. Excellent.

Joanne Lockwood: That means that people can navigate around London easier. But

Sarah Burrell: when the mentality dropped, when the morale of empowering picks dropped in London, attitudes dropped as well. People forgot the empowerment and forgot the awesome people who were in parentheses in London, we wouldn't ever do. Maintaining that attitude of a positive. Is. Crucial to maintaining changes that are happening and to ensure they're happening in the right way. And it all comes back to engagement, proactive engagement. Yeah, definitely. And I've

Joanne Lockwood: heard that said before about London, how it had all this potential and then it hasn't carried the momentum on and austerity and other things kicked in. But there's no excuses. We started making great progress. I think you're right about the change within Covid, is that we've gone from a country full of organisations, maybe in the world where we started from a can't, we can't do that, we can't do this. All these reasons about security, about too hard to manage or we can't trust you. We've gone from that really attitude overnight to we have to and we are. And I really hope that we don't end up sliding back into the old ways when people go back and get complacent again and go, oh good, we got our office back, we're going to carry on. But I'd like to think personally that people power will now kick in and we'll say, we know what it's like now, we know that we can do this, let's carry on. I think we're already seeing the shift in some major organisations communicating. They're going to continue their continuous work from home policy forever and make flexible work in the norm and I think that's best to be applauded. So tell me you've got lots of things coming up. You were telling me earlier that you've got lots of things you're doing, you're working on. So what are you up to?

Sarah Burrell: Can I just say one more thing and before I forget it? Yeah, go for

Joanne Lockwood: it. But this is it on this

Sarah Burrell: originally the strategic change that happened in the. First two months, two weeks,

Joanne Lockwood: first month. Of COVID was putting out fires, right?

Sarah Burrell: It was putting out fires and testing. The waters

Joanne Lockwood: and beginning to embed. But now reaction has stopped and response.

Sarah Burrell: Has kicked in and embedding these innovative. Solutions that affect

Joanne Lockwood: change. So it's all about when we were. Putting out fires and testing the

Sarah Burrell: waters. It was a temporary thing, right? But it's been going on for so long now. Actually, what you can write, it's starting. To embed, it's starting to become

Joanne Lockwood: less. Reactive, more responsive

Sarah Burrell: and therefore more inclusion. So, to answer your other question, what's going on right now? I'm developing guidelines to support inclusion online events and meetings to make guidance book. Really guidance on how

Joanne Lockwood: to make.

Sarah Burrell: Online. Meetings inclusive

Joanne Lockwood: through a physical sense, but also through what we can do around.

Sarah Burrell: Communication in that angle. And so

Joanne Lockwood: I'm developing these guidelines and I'm hosting an event. The date is to

Sarah Burrell: be confirmed yet? As yet, but.

Joanne Lockwood: It'S a communication event focused on engagement. And I'm very excited to

Sarah Burrell: have from across the board, different, hugely different challenges and what people bring tonight and how we can get around the issues that. We face

Joanne Lockwood: through engagement. Challenges we face

Sarah Burrell: in engagement and communication. To

Joanne Lockwood: overcome those challenges through developing systems. That work for

Sarah Burrell: people and not having. To

Joanne Lockwood: change themselves, but have the technology. Adapt to what they

Sarah Burrell: need in a way of making inclusive practises mental health well being. A surrounding communication like anxiety, anxiety is a massive thing that is not associated much with.

Joanne Lockwood: Communication, but anxiety is a. Huge thing that isn't

Sarah Burrell: talked about enough surrounding engagement. In the guidelines, I provide concrete examples, tangible, actionable examples of how we can. Do that

Joanne Lockwood: better and how we can. Better support others in

Sarah Burrell: this online work. Cultural

Joanne Lockwood: phase we're trying to shift. That's

Sarah Burrell: really exciting.

Joanne Lockwood: I'm really looking forward, really looking forward to finding out more about that as it evolves. You've shared some amazing thoughts today and some real depth of understanding and insight into how organisations can engage better with people, isn't it? And just trying to level this playing field, as you talked about. So how do people get in touch with you if they want to find out more about what you're doing or just look at the work you've been doing? Great. So I have a

Sarah Burrell: website, sarahburrell.co.uk, and that has information on what I offer. So, strategic inclusion consultancy. I offer in all areas of strategy, relief, recruitment, personal development, engagement, communication, strategic change. I offer multiple training courses on unconscious bias, disability. I cover in depth and able to create bespoke training courses for tailored to your organisational needs. I cover mental health quite in depth. I

Joanne Lockwood: I. Obviously

Sarah Burrell: my events are publicised there. I have a twitter handle at inclusion underscore SB and my email Sarah Burrell. Sarah

Joanne Lockwood: change on. Inclusion at sarahburrell.co.uk, thank you. Burrell is B-U-R-R-E-L-L sarahburrell.co.uk brilliant. All those details will be in the show notes so people who want to look you up can get hold of those from the show notes and well, thank you. It's been an inspiration. It's so much we packed in there. I can't believe we've been talking for over an hour. So huge thanks to the listeners. I'm sure you'll agree there's plenty to ponder there. So if you're listening, please do subscribe to keep updated on future episodes of the Inclusion Bites podcast. That's B-I-T-E-S. Please tell your friends, tell your colleagues, I assume you have some, and get. Them to subscribe as well. Please do share this on social media platforms. I've got a number of exciting guests lined up that I'm sure you'll be inspired by over the next few weeks and months, and if you'd like to be a guest, let me know. If you'd like to be sitting in the hot seat and having a conversation with me, then. Brilliant. Get in touch. I also welcome any feedback and suggestions you might have for future sews and how we can improve. To jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk so my name is Joanne Lockwood and it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch you next time. Bye.