--- title: "The Art Of Authentic Living" episode: 188 date: 2025-12-18 guest: "Sam Turlington" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/188-the-art-of-authentic-living audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-188/audio.mp3 --- # The Art Of Authentic Living Joanne Lockwood is joined by New York-based actor and multi-hyphenate creative Sam Turlington for a wide-ranging conversation about what it means to live authentically. Sam reflects on how curiosity and empathy shaped their path into performance, and how acting created unexpected routes into self-understanding, identity exploration, and more truthful storytelling. Together they talk about representation in creative spaces, including when the arts feel welcoming and when they don’t. Sam shares experiences of bringing their identity to roles across genders, collaborating with directors and writers on the narrative implications of casting, and even adapting scripts and pronouns to make nonbinary identity visible and coherent within a production. The discussion also touches on the lived realities of being visibly different—through gender expression and body size—and how everyday environments can be built without some bodies in mind. Against a backdrop of political pressure on queer communities in the US and UK, Sam describes “joy as resistance” and the importance of community connection, resilience, and finding places where people can both challenge and celebrate together. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Creative Arts Multi-Hyphenate - 03:33 — Curiosity Led Me to Acting - 09:25 — The Importance of Improv Skill - 11:11 — Recognising Quality in Scripts - 14:03 — Unexpected Conservative Theatre Experience - 18:40 — Shakespeare, Gender, and Neopronouns - 23:03 — Coming Out and Identity Evolution - 26:15 — Self-Exploration and Identity Questions - 29:20 — Stereotypes in Acting and Reality - 32:28 — Navigating a World Too Narrow - 36:14 — Broadway Seating Woes - 40:37 — Queer Crisis: Reflecting Abroad - 44:28 — Power of Community and Resilience - 47:43 — Privilege and Safety in Brooklyn - 49:06 — The Shifting Nature of Otherness - 53:16 — Fascinating Conversation With Sam - 55:03 — Inclusive Conversations with Joanne ## Key takeaways - The multifaceted reality of creative careers and the power of embracing multiple identities beyond the binary. - How authentic storytelling and lived experience enrich character portrayal and foster audience empathy. - Navigating the challenges of underrepresentation, stereotyping, and the balancing act of bringing one’s whole self into creative professions. - The significance of inclusive and queer-friendly spaces in the arts, and recognising that not all creative environments are welcoming by default. - The process and importance of re-examining traditional roles and scripts through a lens of authentic gender identity. - Managing the emotional and societal weight of visibility, and how community bonds develop amidst political and structural adversity. - The importance of opening doors, self-exploration, and finding joy and connection as lasting acts of resistance and personal growth. ## FAQs ### What does it mean to be a “multi-hyphenate creative” and how does this relate to identity? A multi-hyphenate creative is someone who actively pursues and embodies multiple roles and creative identities—such as actor, producer, director, and writer—rather than fitting rigidly into a single professional label. As Sam Turlington explained, it’s a pragmatic way to acknowledge broad creative interests without the need to list every job title. This concept echoes the rejection of binaries and resonates with non-binary identities: both in career and personal identity, freedom comes from moving beyond one prescribed categorisation. ### How does acting contribute to self-discovery and authentic living? Acting offers the opportunity to explore diverse human experiences and step into other people's shoes. Sam Turlington described how performing in scripted roles created space for personal growth, empathy, and curiosity, ultimately fostering a deeper understanding of their own identity, including their journey to being non-binary. This process allows actors not just to portray others, but to reflect and discover truths about themselves. ### Is the creative arts sector typically inclusive of queer and non-binary people? Most creative spaces tend to be open and inclusive towards queer and non-binary individuals, promoting empathy and varied representation. Nonetheless, as Sam Turlington noted, there are exceptions—some artistic environments still lack genuine inclusivity, sometimes even promoting harmful narratives. True inclusion goes beyond mere tolerance; it requires active acceptance and integration of diverse identities. ### Can actors bring their authentic selves to roles that traditionally have a fixed gender or identity? Absolutely. Sam Turlington emphasised that they seek to infuse every character with aspects of their own identity. Casting non-binary or queer individuals in roles originally written for cisgender characters can enrich the narrative, provoke necessary dramaturgical conversations, and improve the authenticity and depth of a storey. This approach sometimes leads to scripts being revised to reflect inclusive realities. ### How does gender exploration manifest in both personal life and artistic performance? Gender exploration is often a journey, sometimes involving gradual shifts in identity expression (“soft launches”) or periods of questioning. In performance, this can echo real life, with characters evolving in gender identity throughout a play, as was the case with Sam Turlington in a Shakespeare production. Authentic representation requires thoughtful adjustment of interactions, language, and relationships within the narrative. ### What barriers and challenges do queer and trans people currently face in the US and UK arts? Both countries are witnessing heightened scrutiny and legislative challenges around queer and trans rights. There is continual political and societal pressure, with identities too often weaponised in public discourse. As Sam Turlington shared, this leads to exhaustion but also galvanises communities to resist through celebration and joy—joy itself becomes an act of rebellion. ## Transcript Sam Turlington: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world everyone not only belongs, but thrives? You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share storeys that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 188 with the title the Art of Authentic Living. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sam Turlington. Sam is a non binary, award winning actor and multi hyphenated creative whose work champions queer joy and the complexity of authentic storytelling. And when I asked Sam to describe their superpower, they said that it is seeing people soulfully honouring the truth of. Of their experience. Sam, welcome to the show. Hello. It's lovely to be here. So, judging by the accent, you're not based in the uk, where I live. So where in the world are you? So I. I'm American, I live in New York Sam Turlington: City, but I have really strong ties to the uk. I got my master's degree in Glasgow. I think you're saying before we went on air Joanne Lockwood: that you spent a lot of time working up in Glasgow and you've just come back to the us? Yes, I do. I. I'm actually working on a Sam Turlington: film in Glasgow at the moment and a lot of my colleagues are in London as well. So I pop over and we create things together and yeah, I'm all over the place. Joanne Lockwood: I'm fascinated by the term multi hyphenated. So what is, what is. What is a multi hyphenate creative then? So Sam Turlington: essentially, you know, when I first trained, I got my BFA many, many years ago. You could just kind of be one thing like you, you focus and that for me, at the time, that was just an actor. And as my career has developed and shifted and changed, and as I have developed and shifted and changed, I've taken on other positions. You know, I've produced films, I have directed plays. I don't know that just one title suits me. So, but saying 12 of them would be a mouthful. So just I'm a creative arts multi hyphenate. Boom, there it is. But always an actor first. Joanne Lockwood: So it's kind of the identity equivalent of being non binary, I guess. So you're not nailing yourself to any particular identity there? Absolutely. I think my Sam Turlington: entire life could be summed up as if I find myself on a binary, I jump off of it immediately. So what makes you tick? Joanne Lockwood: What was your kind of inspiration as a young person to plot your course in this direction? So I have a fundamental Sam Turlington: curiosity at the core of my person to just connect and wonder. And I grew up in a. Not a small town, but in a small southern space where I didn't really have a lot of access to the wider world around me. And I found myself just gravitating towards anything that was different from what my upbringing had introduced me to. And that's how I fell into acting. Because as an artist, as an actor, you get to take on other people, other personalities, you get to walk in another person's shoes, you get to research their experiences and put yourself in scenarios that you yourself would never find yourself in. So I think in a strange way, my core nature of curiosity and wanting connection with the outside world led me to acting. And then I'm pretty sure it's that that led me even deeper in myself to discover that I'm non binary and that my experience of the world is much more varied than I originally thought. When I was a kid, just being an actor playing, Joanne Lockwood: playing a part through someone else's words. I guess most of the time when you're acting, someone else has scripted you. You're someone else's Persona. Did that give you an opportunity to maybe step outside of yourself and try on new things? Is that kind of what happened there? Absolutely. I would say, you Sam Turlington: know, as a young actor, you get a script and your first instinct is to say, well, how would I do this? And then you learn very quickly, oh, that doesn't actually serve, you know, the play or the film or whatever it is you're doing. So I felt a freedom to be like, oh, great. I don't have to think about what Sam would do. I get to use the tools I have to figure out what this person would do. And then the freedom that comes from that to be like, great. I don't have to worry about how I feel about a thing. I know how they feel about a thing. And then the inevitable conclusion of that is, okay, well, I, Sam, do not understand why this kind of person would make this kind of decision because it's so vastly different from what I would do. So then you have to, you know, whatever kind of research you do, talking to people. I sought a psychology minor when I went into my time in university. I was like, I have to understand why people do the things that they do do. And really all that was doing was fostering greater empathy for people in the world around me. So it's amazing how all that kind of plays in together. Yeah. When I used to run IT companies and when I Joanne Lockwood: tend to transition about 10 years ago, give or take, I bulked from this new part of my career, both career and identity and I was looking for what I was going to do in the middle of the night and I thought I would try and get into acting because I had a few friends who were, who did bit parts, you know, the sort of, you know, they were. The person walking behind somebody or they were serving them at a table. There's sort of minor roles and I wrote with a lot of agencies and I never, I never got anywhere as it happened, but I did, I did have a couple of auditions doing a few things and it kind of got me into that. It made me realise that I didn't want to do it, to be honest. But it was, it was fascinating because I actually changed my bio to being aspiring actor at one point. You know, I love it, you have. To manifest it for it to become real. So I tried to manifest it on my bio and I just decided it was. It didn't pay very well. You know, it doesn't, you know, when you're in that early stage, £100 for a day or something. And I thought that's a lot of work to go all the way to London and back and stand around and maybe get to. I decided I wanted to focus on higher worth opportunities. I absolutely understand the amount of Sam Turlington: work that you have to put in as an actor compared to the benefit and compensation that you get, especially early career is near impossible. Sometimes I'm inspired by. I don't know how younger me did it, I really don't. And I applaud them. And any young actor who's starting out right now, particularly, goodness gracious, they're my heroes. I don't. The leap of faith you have to take and the amount of work you have to put in and the amount of rejection you have to deal with in an already tumultuous world that's rejecting you and your identity potentially is overwhelming. Joanne Lockwood: But I soon figured out that my stage was different. It didn't need to be an acting stage. So I'm now a keynote speaker, a professional speaker on stage. So you still bring that larger than life Persona. So you. Absolutely. It's authentic, but it's a bigger version of you. It's not the quiet you, it's the stage you. So yeah, I enjoy performing because I think being a professional keynote speaker is a performance as well. It has to have Act 1, Act 2, Act 3 and thank you at the end. So yeah, it is like being a solo performer. Solo act for sure. The overlap between public speakers Sam Turlington: and keynote speakers and actors is. I mean the Venn diagram is a circle. Basically it's the same thing. Except for I think you usually control what you're going to say and we sometimes are saying other people's words. Sometimes I don't know what I'm going to say next. It Joanne Lockwood: is like ad lib. Sometimes it is. Yeah, lots of. And improv. And improv. Yeah. Yes. And Sam Turlington: yeah. So yeah. But I mean obviously I know what the topic is when I Joanne Lockwood: stand on stage. I know what I'm gonna talk about roughly. But in all seriousness. And if you're looking to book and pay me to do anything, don't worry, I always get it right. But I often don't know what I'm gonna say next until it actually comes out my mouth. Cause it is conversational often. Yes. Sam Turlington: I actually think that's a really wonderful skill and it's something that all actors have to be in some way shape or form good at improv. And if not improv, when you're in a play, you have to be so comfortable with the script that it's as if you are saying it off the cuff. It's as if it's not pre planned. So I think knowing the shape of a conversation, knowing the shape of what you want to say, knowing, okay, we're going to go here, we're going to move here, we're going to end here eventually. That's the most important thing. You don't always need to know exactly what words and exactly what order are coming out of your mouth. But knowing what the journey's going to be is incredibly important and a really good skill to have when you're working on a very wordy play because your errors are going to happen, you're going to make mistakes and recovering from that is really the mark of a true professional. How you recover and for simply, it's not just you that makes Joanne Lockwood: messes up, it's the person you're acting against or with and they've gone off on one and you're thinking, well, that's not in my script, but I'll just have to rock with this and see what happens, see when you come back. And I'll pick it up from wherever you leave it. Yeah, you just gotta Sam Turlington: roll with the punches sometimes. And if it goes off the rails, it goes off the rails. And if you're in a play, it's going off the rails live in front of a bunch of people. And either they're gonna be on board or they're not gonna be on board. And it's your job to get them on board with whatever madness is happening. Joanne Lockwood: I guess you've got to have faith in the writer because everything you're saying should be optimised to be part of the storey or a necessary plot. You're often not just saying words for the sake of it. They're part of evolving the character, aren't they? They should be. They certainly Sam Turlington: should be. I think I didn't know this when I was a young artist, but I have more experience now that you can hear the difference between a good script and just a script by how important is every word that the characters are saying? Is all the details coming out in an organic way? Is it a show me, don't tell me kind of thing? You can really hear if there's filler, if there's just fluff, language. Like, the writer was like, oh, this might sound a bit clever if I say it like this, but it doesn't serve the purpose of the storey. And they're out there. You're gonna. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've auditioned with some doozy scripts, but, you know, that's my job, to make it better and make it real and solve the problem as we say. You always want to solve the problem. Do you find yourself having Joanne Lockwood: your own version of predictive text in your head where you're listening along to something and you know exactly what the next character's gonna say? I mean, I watch TV and films all the time thinking, and I'm reading out the next time Marie's looking at me going, how'd you know they were gonna say that? It just gonna happen. It is. All the time. Yeah. The Sam Turlington: same. Em and I will be on the couch and they'll be like, especially in high dramas, there's always those long pauses waiting for the next character to speak. And nine times out of 10, I'm like, I know exactly what they're gonna say. And it's not even the gist of what they're gonna Say Joanne Lockwood: it's actually the word. Cause there's obviously there's lots of superlatives they could have picked. And I go, I just say, da, da, da, da. There it is. Exactly what they just said. Almost in time with them as well. Yeah, maybe I became invested in the character and I became with them. Honestly, Sam Turlington: that might be you syncing up with the character and their narrative. That's a form of acting as well, is being able to empathetically get into the headspace of someone else so much that their words are coming out of your mouth. Absolutely. So you obviously hang out Joanne Lockwood: in creative space a lot as a thespian. If you identify as a thespian, a producer or your hyphenates out there, I would imagine as someone who isn't in that space, that it's a very open, queer friendly type environment. Is that a truism? Say yes with an asterisk. Sam Turlington: It's. The majority of creative spaces are going to be open to queer people and multiple identities and things like that. It shocked me to discover that some creative places are not. I didn't. I never really considered that. I kind of took for granted that everyone who works in this industry has the level of empathy required to just be cool with everybody and be specifically inclusive of everybody. Because being cool with someone and being inclusive of them are very different things. And a few years ago, I went to a play that I didn't know anything about, but someone was like, hey, I have a ticket, let's go. It was a small off off Broadway play and I was not in the audience very long before I realised this is a conservative propaganda piece. And I am surrounded in a theatre with actors, with directors, all of the normal people, but they're putting on this play that's saying some really not okay things. And it was my first interaction with how could this happen in our community? I didn't know these spaces existed. And so of course, I go out into the lobby afterwards and there's some prominent conservative media figures there. And I'm like, this is odd. And I talk to, like the house manager and stuff and I'm like, how in the world do spaces like this happen? And she goes, well, we all have to eat and we have jobs to do and we get hired to do these jobs. And sometimes the people that we're working for are not great, but we don't control who rents the theatre. Some people are dicks and you can't legislate. It was so shocking because the house manager was like, well, you know, I don't know when the theatre gets rented, we don't know what show's going in there, so we're just as surprised as you. And I said, well, what about the actors? Do you know what's going on with that? And she was like, you know, it's an acting job and some actors can just be like, well, you know, I'm not gonna worry about it. I'm just gonna do my job and then get on with it and take the paycheck. I was shaken by that news. Joanne Lockwood: Can't bring your friends to the opening night, can you? Oh, Sam Turlington: I don't know, sort of have. This shame I'm in this play or you can't Joanne Lockwood: come and see it. It's awful. Here's the thing. I've been in some bad plays, Sam Turlington: but I've never been in bad plays because they were written by bad people like, or had something bad to say. I will happily invite my friends to a bad play that's not very good and the writing or the storytelling is green. But my goodness, I don't know if I could ever agree to be in a play that was actively trying to cause harm to somebody or is going to say something that could cause harm to somebody. So other than that very specific group of people that does exist, maybe 5% of the industry as I know it, most every creative space I'm in is wonderfully queer friendly. Thank goodness. You said earlier Joanne Lockwood: about it's not you playing the role, you're having to step into the character and the character plays the role, if you like. Where do you stand on your own identity? Do you play CIS male, CIS female characters as a non binary person or do you have to bring your identity into that role as well? My first and foremost approach is to always bring Sam Turlington: my identity to a role. But I play CIS women all the time. I've had the very A highlight for me has been playing CIS men recently, which is really great. I usually when I get cast as whatever gender identity, the first conversation I have with the director is, okay, you have chosen someone like me to play this role. Let's deal with the narrative dramaturgical ramifications of that or the gift that that is. I was in a play last year by a wonderful playwright who's actually in the uk and the role I was cast as was just called the son S o n and it was a family dynamic where, you know, parents and then a son and a daughter and they cast me as the son and the director said, actually, how would you feel if we explore what this role's gender identity actually is. Does it actually need to be a CIS man? It doesn't have to be. Let's see what happens. And we ended up coming to the conclusion that this character was non binary and it actually served the storey better for them to be so. So that was a moment of me bringing who I am to the role and it actually made the play better. And I think now the writer has actually rewritten the script so that that character just is non binary. Now I Joanne Lockwood: suppose at that point there, you're then having to give an authenticity consultation top to bottom on that script so that all the characters who interact with that character know that person's identity, how they're going to refer to them, how those relationships, work, family, whatever, and all those little words that you forget agenda, suddenly you have to be reorientated, don't they? Absolutely. One very specific example Sam Turlington: of that. I was in a production of as yous like it, and I was playing Touchstone, who's the clown in that play and originally written for a CIS man. But we decided that in the context of the play, this character would start out in stealth mode, hiding as if they were a CIS man, but then transitioning to non binary as the play went on. And we got curious of like, okay, how are we going to support that with Shakespeare's language in a very well known play? And we ended up getting curious about neopronouns and maybe Touchstone refers to themselves with zee zem zir and how does that fit with Shakespeare's language? And as we got curious, as we dived dove into the text and explored, we just decided, you know, what Shakespeare was doing all kinds of weird gender stuff a long time ago. I don't think he would mind. We changed all of Touchstone's pronouns in the script so that even when other characters referred to them, they used these neo pronouns. And then there was an evolution of like when they were in the first act in the very strict horrible Court, they referred to Touchstone as him. And then they slowly started going to they them. And then by the end of the play, Z zem's ear, which was so cool, to figure out how that functions and to not put any limits on what it could be. And it's actually Joanne Lockwood: quite like real life as well, because you don't go from here to there overnight. You don't wake up one morning and go, well, maybe you do, but you have to bring the world with you, don't you? Yes. I Sam Turlington: say, there's a joke that everyone makes. It's the he, him to he, they to they, she to they, them to she her pipeline, it just starts to go and. Cause it's an exploration. Joanne Lockwood: It's a soft launch, isn't it? Coming out as non binary. It can be a soft launch, but that validates your, that, that also invalidates non binary identities as seeing it as a. Oh, you're just trying it out. That's actually my destination. So you've got to be careful. You're not propagating that myth, isn't you? Yes, of course. Because like, and some people Sam Turlington: can use non binary, the non binary identity as like a stopping ground to kind of sit and reorient before they move on to something else. Because they might think that being non binary is my destination. But then they get here where I am and they go, oh, I thought this was the conclusion, but it's actually not. And they can keep going. And then some people like myself get here and we go, sweet, we've made it home. This is the correct thing. And I have explored the other direction and been like, oh, nope, that wasn't right. So the freedom to move from one to the other and to validate everyone as they're passing through or making camp as twere, I think is really important. Yeah, no, I get that Joanne Lockwood: completely. Yeah, I skipped the middle bit. I just went straight to the other end. I just, I knew I was going at the book, had the map, honestly. Yeah, respect. To know exactly where you're going, Sam Turlington: exactly what you want. All of my trans siblings who know exactly like, this is me, I have such respect for that and I have such admiration for it because I've just never been able to make up my mind. Joanne Lockwood: But to be fair, my evolution was back in the 1970s and you know, think about how long ago that was. And she her was bad enough in those days. You know, there's no, there's no kind of. There's no, There was no queer option or gender queer or gender expansive options at the time. You had to be here or I had to be here. And that bit in the middle was a destination rather than, as you say, a stopping ground. Absolutely. What's going on here then? Let's have a look around. So true. I mean, as Sam Turlington: tumultuous as things are right now for our community, I can't fathom the experience that it was in the 80s, in the 70s, in the 60s and beyond. Unbelievable. Well, there was just, there was no language. Joanne Lockwood: There was nothing to envy or be worried about. It was when you've got no options, you don't worry about having no options because you don't know no options. So you don't know what you don't know. Absolutely. That was Sam Turlington: a big thing in conversations around my coming out, because I, as far as the current generation believes I came out later in life because so many of our community members get to come out when they're like children because they know exactly who they are and they have the access to the language. But non binary did not exist when I was in high school. When I was in middle school, I didn't. I don't think I met an out trans person until I was in college. So I had no access to that identity or that life or how it might apply to me. Which, hilariously, I figured that out through theatre. I got cast not long out of school, I got cast in a play playing a trans woman. And in that time, the conversation around casting CIS actors as trans people was not existent really, or was not loud like it is now. But I ended up playing a trans character. And it was the first time my brain went, is this me? This is the way I feel. And it was a doorway. I tell that I haven't ever told that director who cast me in that play, but I need to write her a letter and say thank you, because if it wasn't for that play, I don't know that I would have gotten the unlock as early as I did in my adulthood. It would have been many, many more years later before figuring out who I was. Maybe she knew something that I didn't. I don't know. Joanne Lockwood: Now you say that I can relate to that experience where there's a life trigger that allows you to unlock that door, whatever that may be. So when I say I knew from a very early age in my life there were certain triggers that if that hadn't have happened at that time, it may have happened later. But I can say that, well, that was a key to that door that went, now let's explore that. And then once you've got the key, you want to keep trying the doors, don't you? You want. Yeah, I've got the key now. I want to keep opening stuff. So, yeah, I see what you mean. You were in a situation where your brain went, okay, let's play with this and see what happens. You go, actually, it fits. It works. Yeah, yeah, I remember. So. Sam Turlington: So clearly I was cast in this role and the director said, okay, so we've cast you as a trans person and the writer of this play was a trans woman, and she has asked that you go to lunch with her so that she can help you understand the mindset, so that you can. Doing my actor job, I am researching and getting information. So Carla and I went to lunch and as she is orienting me to what it feels like, I just kept sitting there going, I know this, I know this feeling. This is also me too. Yes, well, of course. And then I start realising and I started asking her, wait a minute, do CIS people not feel this way? Apparently not. Apparently not. Apparently not. I just remember at one point she kind of got quiet and she was looking at me and she goes, have you ever explored within yourself what you actually are, what you are? Like, what kind of exploration have you done in your life? And I said, well, I know, I'm. I'm. I said, at the time, I think I called myself bisexual, but pansexual was more accurate. And I was like, I've never really felt at home in the space that I was raised. I never felt at home in the gender assigned to this body by the space that I was raised in. But I've also never felt like the other called to me in a way. And she goes, all right, well, through this project, I just encourage you to keep asking questions. You're so curious about the world around you. I'd like you to be curious about yourself because that's going to bring you home to this role. And she had no idea that what it was actually going to do is bring me home to me and myself and my authentic being. So, honestly, if it wasn't for what I do for a living, I have no idea when I would have discovered my transness, when I would have discovered my non binary nature. I don't know when that would have happened. As you were talking, I Joanne Lockwood: was thinking about, this is how my brain works, blood types and the fact that O negative is the universal donor and AB positive is the universal receiver. So do you feel that as a non binary person, you're able to donate yourself into other blood types more readily than someone who is maybe rigid? And now I just. Sam Turlington: Absolutely, I feel. So now that I am fully my authentic self, I feel so connected to every experience. I don't feel like, like obviously I have my lived experience and other people have their lived experiences and that will colour what I'm able to relate to. But on a fundamental level, being able to identify with every person that I come into contact with and every storey that I hear and being able to relate to it, especially when it comes to gender and sexuality and the internal struggles that we all experience, it's not like CIS people don't experience struggle or don't experience, you know, the cognitive dissonance on the inside or these are all universal feelings, just some of us express them outwardly in a very different way. So I would say yes, I do. Joanne Lockwood: Do you come across many cishet actors who attempt to play a queer character and either they, they don't get it or they're conflicted? I'm just thinking of Eddie Redmayne playing in the Danish Girl. Yeah, Danish girl. Yeah. Now here in Sam Turlington: New York City, I can't think of any. I can think of CIS het actors who have played CIS gay or lesbian roles and sometimes you see them in plays and you go, that's not how we talk or that's not how we hold ourselves. So you can kind of see the scenes. Stereotype kicks in. Yeah, because I mean as an actor stereotype is a little important because it gives you a quick flash look at something but then you have to get curious and go past the stereotype and able to actually be. Because you know, every stereotype is grounded in some kind of reality because that's how we categorise humans. So but we need to unpack that and find out, you know, okay, is this a harmful stereotype? Is this a joyful stereotype? You know, what kind of stereotype is this and how can we actually get to the reality? And a lot of, in my observation, a lot of cishet actors, particularly CIS men who take on gay male roles, they go to a stereotype that is common for their viewpoint but not ours. Our community knows how CIS gay men are. The straight community doesn't always know that. So, but I think it's a little more. People are a little more mindful of that now. And there's so many actors who are out and proud just cast people for the roles that they need to be playing. You know, it's the same thing with, I'm a fat bodied actor. Don't cast thin people to play fat people. Just don't do it. We know us, let us play us. Yeah. Unless you've had boob sweat or Joanne Lockwood: got out of breath walking up down the stairs, if you're too fit, you're never going to appreciate the nuances and the give me five at the top of. The stairs or something as something as simple Sam Turlington: as sitting in a chair. Because I'm larger bodied, I have the knowledge that most chairs are not structured for my weight. And so I'm gonna tell you what, every time I sit I'm just like, I'm just Gonna go down really slow to make sure this is gonna be okay. And I am in the fat community, I'm considered a small fat. Okay. So if I'm worried about this, my other bodied friends, my fatter bodied friends are. It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare that the world is literally not built with them in mind. So you know what, we understand this, we understand what it is to struggle to find clothes in your size and have to shop online because they never have your size in store. Right. Or have to be perfectly put together all the time because of the stereotypes people associate with being fat. So, you know, it's just let people play their identities is what I. Yeah. I Joanne Lockwood: mean I can identify as a, as a past large body person. I was probably 300 pound plus at my max, 20, 22, 23 stone and I've lost 140 pound, 120 recently. So yeah, I've been to that thing where we go to a pub garden in the UK and they've got that white plastic furniture and it used to be a party trick. People would look at me and go, you really can sit on there. Go, oh yeah. And I go, I'll be careful. And all of a sudden hear this cracking noise and suddenly you're on the floor and this thing has just gone like a baby giraffe. I'm from underneath, right. Sam Turlington: It's just ridiculous. Literally those, those plastic, those plastic chairs, if I see those, I'm like, mm, mm, no, no, no, I'll be standing, thank you very much. And how uncomfortable is it? Everyone Joanne Lockwood: sits on the grass. You think I don't, how do I get down there then? How do I get back up? And it's bloody uncomfortable as a large body person just laying on the grass or sitting on the ground. Yeah, it's, it can be Sam Turlington: so ridiculous. And you know, I'm, I'm really grateful that I, I'm a really active person and like my body because you know, of what I do and I, I love, I've always been bigger bodied and I love the way my body moves and I love what my body can handle and the amount of stuff that it can do. But the fact that I have to make accommodation in my just like day to day life to fit into the world around me. Like here in New York City, in every restaurant, tables are like yay far apart, like a couple inches apart and they expect you to walk past those tables to be sat. And I'm like, first of all, all of this lusciousness is not making it through that narrow little alleyway that you've made. But I don't think anybody should be forced into those narrow of spaces. It's just wrong. It's not. Okay, well, the Joanne Lockwood: diners on one side are gonna get your butt in their face or wiping across their food. And the other side, it's probably your boobs, isn't it? And Sam Turlington: then to my ultimate fear is that one day I'm gonna try to squeeze through a space of tables like that and they're gonna have like a bottle of wine sitting on the table and I'm just gonna knock it, I'm gonna knock that with my booty and then be like, I'm so sorry, now I have to buy your dinner and I'm just gonna like throw myself in the Hudson. It's shameful. I can't so, so bad. But if people would just be mindful and like move the tables a little farther apart, it's all you gotta do. And then it would be fine. See, Joanne Lockwood: as a reformed large body person, I've got these storeys. I live with being larger than life. For 30, 40 years of my life, I've had the problem with the tray table. You know, you're on the plane, you end up having to force it in and you end up with a bit above and a bit below the tray table. And they put the dinner down there and sort of like wedge door, you want the extra long seat belt, you know, the booster on a train. Sam Turlington: Well, air travel these days is just offensive to everybody. Aeroplanes are getting so uncomfortable because they're not thinking of anybody's comfort at all. And so I feel like a lot of the things that large bodied folk have been saying, hey, maybe consider X, Y and Z about how to fix this. Now more straight sized people are going, you know, yeah, it is uncomfortable. We really should have better things. And to that I say, you're welcome, you're welcome, straight sized people. Joanne Lockwood: But the airline industry is solving that problem by charging you to pick your seat or to get the aisle to get the extra legroom, aren't they? So they're cashing in on people's size as a sales process, aren't they? That's what it is. Yeah. I Sam Turlington: get offered upsells to first class all the time because they're roomier seats, they have more distance to the tray tables and stuff. They're like, oh, well, if you want to be more comfortable, go first class. I'm like, who in the world can afford this all the time? Like, it's ridiculous. No, absolutely not. I don't want to have to pay more just because my body exists the way it does. Yeah, I Joanne Lockwood: remember I used to do a lot of short haul in Europe back in the 90s and I was quite a big person. I remember, more than not. I'd have a window and you're praying for no one to sit in the middle. And then you take off and the person on the other end and you look at each other go, dodged a bullet there. But sometimes I end up packed plane. I'd end up in the middle seat myself sometimes. And I remember walking up to the. Walking up to my aisle, seeing the person by the window, seeing the person by the. And I look at them and go, big person, that's it. Yep, my seat. And they look at me and go, oh, you could just see. Oh, my God. And then you end up. You end up sitting there eating a meal with your arms crossed and trying to sort of keep your elbows in it. And it's such an uncomfortable thing. Sam Turlington: It's, you know, where I have had that experience recently here in New York. Some of the Broadway houses are so small, their seats. I don't know how anybody is comfortable in them. Like, I'm about. I'm about a size 18, 20American. I think that's what, like a 22 in the UK. I sat. I was at the Nederlander Theatre recently and I sat in the seat and I was with my mate Bryce, and I was like, hey, buddy, I'm just gonna have to snuggle up next to you because this poor woman next to me, I was like crossing my arms over, like pulling in as tight as possible. And Bryce, who's like a real fit guy, was like. He's like, yeah, my biceps are just. It's got. We're all sitting here tight together and I really loved this perspective of like, you know, really swole dudes are like, like talking to fat people, being like, oh, yeah, us too. We're all having a hard time squeezing in here. It was hilarious. But too small. Like, I don't know why in the world they would want people to watch a play squeezed into seats like that. I barely remember anything about the first 10 minutes because I was so uncomfortable. I also realised that you don't realise Joanne Lockwood: when you're a large body person that there's quite a lot of you on your butt and your back. So it actually pushes you further forward in the seat as well. You actually talk. You know, the length of your, your knees is quite long. So when you lose weight, you realise that actually Your bum goes further back in the seat and you've got a gap at the front of the seat now. But for years I was thinking, how can anyone. I can't even get my knees in here. And I remember sitting in the aisle, put my feet out and. Yeah, it's so uncomfortable that it's not designed. Sam Turlington: Yeah, no, it's so wild. And they cram. And tall people as well. I have a couple friends who are very tall and when we go to see shows, it's like they're constantly tucking their knees in and stuff. They're not made. Most places are not made for dimensions outside of, I don't know, the standard body for the thieves, you know, like from the 90s or something. It's ridiculous. Joanne Lockwood: We're eating too much steak and red meat now. We're growing too big, aren't we? Sam Turlington: It must be. I'll tell you, I haven't had red meat in a very long time. I'm a flexitarian. I mostly eat fish and chicken and I didn't realise just how much red meat is in all of. Like, especially as an American and how much red meat is like the centrepiece of all of our diet in America. Like it's all we eat. And sometimes finding meals, especially when I go to benefits and stuff, finding meals that are not beef or pork is really, really difficult. Joanne Lockwood: My perception is that the meat, beef and pork, is cheap, cheap in the States compared with other parts. It is. And I don't want to get into debate about your food hygiene and GM and all that kind of. But you've got a lot more cattle and it's a lot more. There's a bigger market. So beef steaks in the US are large and cheap, aren't they? Generally, yeah. And Sam Turlington: varying in quality. Of course, a big reason why I stopped eating particularly beef but red meat was because I just can't with how we treat our food here in the States. Growing up in a southern home, I think we ate beef steak three, four nights a week. It's just a normal thing to do. Like a meatloaf with ground beef in it or, you know, spaghetti and meatballs like chicken fried steak, you know, just constant meat. So when I was vegetarian it was a big deal. I remember when I went to Joanne Lockwood: Florida with the family back in 2004, 21 years ago, it was either steak or it was lobster and spider crab everywhere. We just chowder. We love our spider, Sam Turlington: we love our spider crabs, we love our crab legs buffet. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, it was, it was an all we can eat red lobster or something, Wherever the brand is. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you, I don't. Red Sam Turlington: Lobster's not an establishment that I visit anymore. But they're cheddar biscuits. Come on now. They're pretty good. That's the class. Maybe next time I go, Joanne Lockwood: next time I feel safe to come to the States, I will. And that. That kind of segues us onto a part of the conversation really is, how are you and your buddies, for want of a better way of describing it, how is it? What's the world like from your perspective? I Sam Turlington: mean, it's difficult to know the temperature of the water when you're sitting in it. That's. That can be a struggle. I am incredibly grateful that I have spent years outside of the States because my time in Scotland allowed me to take a minute and reorient myself and look at my country from afar and really take stock of how things are. So, you know, of course, being a performer, you know, anytime someone's like, how are things? My gut reaction is to always be like, oh, yeah, it's great, we're getting on, everything's fine. But in all honesty, trans and non binary folk, all queer folk in America are in crisis right now. You know, we are dealing with, much like our siblings in the uk, our government constantly putting laws on our bodies and trying to limit our movement. And even if the legalities and the logistics are not permanent fixtures, the conversations around them, the constant checking in, the constant hearing, our identities weaponized, is exhausting and, you know, draining. And it makes our joy and it makes our celebrations even more vital and rebellious. And I have never so fervently embraced joy as an act of resistance as I have right now. I didn't really know what that term meant until standing in this current cultural moment. Now I get what joy as resistance means because I have to live it every day. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I often say to people that I'm a protest just by existing. It's kind of. I make people uncomfortable just by the fact I'm here. If you've never been in that position, you don't know what that means. Just by standing somewhere and being present, you are polarising people, aren't you? Me being Sam Turlington: visible is me saying something. Walking around as myself during the day, I am making a statement. I am a walking protest all on my own, without meaning to be. I saw a TikTok recently that has just been echoing in my mind. You know how sometimes people go, oh, I don't get into politics, I don't like to get into politics. I don't follow politics. A woman on TikTok goes, well, politics followed you all the way to your house. Politics is very interested in you and is with you all the time. And that is the core of how I feel at the moment. Joanne Lockwood: Quite stressful, isn't it? Yep. Thank goodness I have a good therapist. You Sam Turlington: know, it's exhausting. I will say there is something magical that happens when your entire community is stressed out and exhausted and you all come together and you go, okay, we're gonna be stressed out and exhausted together. And that creates tighter bonds. And I've never felt closer to my community than I feel now. But it is such a heavy weight and I'm ready for it to lift. Something's gotta give. I don't know what that is. And without sounding overdramatic, Joanne Lockwood: you're right, it does bond the community. I mean, you think about what's going on in Ukraine and how that's bonded the Ukrainian people together. What's going on in other war torn territories, what's going on in Gaza. Probably, yes. People are finding that solace in human contact in themselves. And I think the key thing from a human perspective is it's not having hope and not being alone, isn't it? And lonely. It's trying to find that kindred spirit. We need. We need a tribe, don't we? We need a tribe. And bonding together in times of need is what we do as humans. I think that's what's happening. Yeah. A Sam Turlington: core tenement of our humanity is being together and getting through things together. No great achievement was ever actually achieved solo alone. There is no world changing thing that has happened with one person. There's always if and if one person is put to the forefront of all this stuff happened because of this one person, there were hundreds probably of people around them, supporting them in some way, encouraging them in some way. So I think the power of community and the power of people is what's going to get us through all of this. I think it is the particularly the queer community. The magic thing about all of us is that our resilience does something to the people around us. Seeing queer people be resilient inspires community and relation and empathy in other people. I have seen families who, you know, did not agree politically but who had queer members in them. I have seen the more conservative of these family members pivot and go, you know what? I'm watching you rally with your people. I'm watching you rally with your community and standing on what you know to be true and your identities. And while we might not agree with you. You're right to do it and you're right to fight the good fight. And it's inspiring. And they have joined up and still not understood fully, but. But known it was right to do anyway. And I think that's an amazing thing about our community. Is New York a relatively safe place? I mean, Joanne Lockwood: east coast, west coast, is it. It's a bit in the middle. That's the worst. Sam Turlington: I find it to be a really safe place. I've lived here for over 10 years, and currently right now, we're in a time where a bunch of influencers online are like, oh, my God, New York is so scary. New York is what it's always been. I feel very protected here. That's not to say that harm doesn't happen here and that there aren't people who. It's a very touristy place. People come from all over the world, so, you know, things happen here. But all in all, I feel safer here than I do pretty much anywhere else in the United States. I feel. I can tell when I leave New York City, there's a different feeling. But here, yeah, we're fine. Joanne Lockwood: New York has zones anyway, doesn't it? It has the Bronx and place like that where you. You have to know where your. Where your community is and where your community isn't. I know better than to go to Staten Sam Turlington: Island. I know better. I don't go there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's. There. Most of the communities keep to their own. Like, you know, no shade to Staten Island. I'm sure there's some really lovely people who live there, but, you know, that's. Not a. I went there. Joanne Lockwood: I went to Staten island once when I was in New York. We heard that the Staten island ferry was free, so we thought, oh, if it's free, we'll go for a boat ride and go to Staten Island. So we went over there, boat ride, loads of people got off the other end, got on the next boat, came back again. It was like we had a little free tour across the bay. It's great. That's a wonderful way to Sam Turlington: see Staten island and then immediately go back to Manhattan and we do it. See Joanne Lockwood: it from the boat and wave at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, Sam Turlington: I feel very privileged to live. I'm in Brooklyn specifically, and I feel very privileged to live where I do and to feel as safe as I do. I know there are people who come to New York or people who are here who don't have that same experience, and I definitely hold space for that. But compared to like where I grew up and what my experience would be if I was living where I grew up or, you know, some other place like my. All of our siblings in Texas or Tennessee. Those places which are like actively dangerous for queer people. So in comparison, it's hard to ever say that I have a hard time here. I was in Oakland last year in Joanne Lockwood: California and hanging around the Bay Area, San Francisco as well, on my own, largely apart from being at a conference. And I felt very safe. In fact, in Oakland I felt less safe as a white person than it had nothing to do with my gender or what. Sam Turlington: Interesting. Yeah. In fact, I was trans. I just felt nervous being Joanne Lockwood: around. They call them panhandlers, people begging on the street and on the. On the tube and subways. I felt more wary about the potential drug culture on the street and that kind of thing. That I felt more under threat by the random stranger somewhere than I ever felt around who I was, if you like. It's. Isn't that interesting that depending Sam Turlington: on where you go changes what otherness you have that is being called attention to. I'm in some spaces where, you know, my otherness of size calls attention to me. I'm in spaces where my otherness of gender calls attention to me. And you know, sometimes I'm in spaces where, you know, my race is an otherness because I'm in a minority there. And it's just. Oh, it always fast is fascinating what you expect to be the thing that goes, I'm the only insert thing here in this space. And what makes you wary how that shifts and changes as you move through the world. Picking up on that, what you Joanne Lockwood: just said there. You're the only one in that space. It's quite a lonely place sometimes, isn't it? Because you have all this responsibility to be the best one you can be, to not let your kind down. For a better way of putting it. But also hyper aware of that difference that other people perceive you and they clock you and suddenly you're on show, aren't you? Yeah, I. Circling it, connecting Sam Turlington: it back to as an artist. I can't tell you how many times I walk into an audition room and I am the largest body in that space. I am also the queerest looking person in that space. Visibly, visibly, clockably queer. And every time, you know, especially in film and television, all eyes will just turn and look at me. And I am very hyper aware of. Of all the attention that is on me. And I'm like, all right, everything I do has to be perfect. Otherwise people might make Assumptions about other people who look like me. And it's a large responsibility to bear. So you've got the. Your queer Joanne Lockwood: responsibility, you've got your large body responsibility, you've got your non binary everything, everything's going on and your pansexuality's gotta kick in there as well. And just by the way, multi hyphenate. Hyphenated. Yeah, my multi hyphenate identity Sam Turlington: constantly on display and constantly. I'm trying so hard to be a good advocate for my communities because, you know, as an extrovert, I feel like we have extra, you know, because we're the ones who will talk and engage with and have the capacity for it. I feel like I definitely have to take on that role as much as possible. Joanne Lockwood: I just need a rest. I can't have a rest. I'm an extrovert. I've got to entertain everybody else. I'm on all the time, constantly Sam Turlington: on. Although the older I get, the more important I'm realising. Taking the time to turn off and just rest and be away from things. Really important bit Joanne Lockwood: neurodiversity kicks in. You get distracted on something and then you get gross on something else. All the time. All the time. Sounds normal to me. Yeah, that's just. It's just my life, you know, that's just. Sam Turlington: I'm, you know, neurodiverse. And so the way my brain works, I've learned to just roll with the punches and let my personality like embody that and follow that and sit and wonder, wow, how do people who don't have this experience just do. That's amazing. And be in awe of other people's experiences. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. For the people who've never opened that door, whatever that door is. Yeah, yeah. You have the opportunity before you die to open the door and figure out. Yes, it's never too late to open the door, it's Sam Turlington: never too late to crack the egg, as they say. And I encourage all people to shut it again. If it's scary, just shut the door. Doesn't Joanne Lockwood: matter. Lock it, throw the key away. Yeah, yeah. But only do it after you've tried it. Yeah. Life is too short not to open the door and Sam Turlington: at least see what's going on back there, you know? Hmm. It's a lot of Joanne Lockwood: fun, actually. Most doors are crazy. Truly. Sam Turlington: I had no idea that my life. Yeah, I had no idea that my life would be this joyful and this wonderful on the other side of the door. I thought it was gonna be scary and constant turmoil. But as bad as things are for our community. I've never felt so at home in myself and so joyful in the way that I live. I had no idea. So I will take the bad with the good easily. What a conversation we've had. So we've Joanne Lockwood: been gnashering away now for an hour and a half. Half an hour in, I said to be better press record, otherwise I'm going to waste all this. For anyone listening right now, we've been doing this half an hour before you started. We carried on and we could carry on for another half an hour, I'm sure, but it's been absolutely fascinating to meet you, Sam. We both opened the door and we both bumped into each other and gone. Wow, what a place. How can people get hold of you? How can you help people? So anyone who wants to Sam Turlington: get a hold of me, I'm on Instagram @seturli and you can check out my website seturlington.com and shoot me a message. My contact information is all on my website, so I'd be happy to connect with anybody. So anybody who wants to Joanne Lockwood: talk about what open doors I guess is absolutely. You want to know Sam Turlington: about opening doors, holler at me. I'll talk to you about, you know, picking the locks, how to relock the door. If you need to, I'll. I'll help you over across the threshold. Absolutely. I'll just blatantly open Joanne Lockwood: it without any shame at all and in joyfully walk. In Sam Turlington: to kick the door down. I'm here, I'm queer. My back pain is moderate to severe. It's been a blast. Thank you so Joanne Lockwood: much. Thank you so much. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Lets amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, storeys or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.