---
title: "Healing At The Heart"
episode: 187
date: 2025-12-11
guest: "Jared Karol"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/187-healing-at-the-heart
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-187/audio.mp3
---

# Healing At The Heart

Joanne Lockwood is joined by personal development coach Jared Karol to explore what it means to bring equanimity to difficult conversations—and why inner healing matters for sustainable social change. Together they unpack how people often respond to pressure and marginalisation by either shutting down or fighting back, and what it can look like to stay present, open, and grounded instead. Jared shares the origins of his approach, including the impact of his father being a gay man who later died of AIDS, and how that experience shaped his commitment to social justice work. He reflects on his early years of activism, when certainty and snark felt effective, and the gradual shift toward a more mature, healing-centred “how” that prioritises emotional regulation, connection, and long-term impact. Across the discussion they consider the difference between passion and purpose, the risks of performative outrage, and the way online interactions can accelerate polarisation. The episode closes with practical invitations—such as mindfulness and centring connection—to help listeners show up consciously and compassionately in the work of inclusion and change.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — The Art of Equanimity
- 06:32 — Reflecting on Personal Growth
- 14:50 — Path to Collective Awareness
- 16:26 — From Lens to Mirror
- 24:33 — Finding Grounding Through Adversity
- 26:51 — Healing Through Connection and Release
- 35:14 — Blocking Negative LinkedIn Response
- 39:34 — Thought-Terminating Clich�s
- 47:42 — Lens vs Inner Development
- 49:55 — Passion vs Purpose
- 56:03 — Modern Interaction and Perception
- 01:00:04 — Healing Through Connection and Letting Go
- 01:05:10 — Join the Inclusion Journey

## Key takeaways

- Strategies for maintaining composure and presence in difficult conversations about equity, privilege, and social justice.
- How to approach healing as a lifelong process, including the importance of both “lens” (outward change) and “mirror” (self-reflection) perspectives.
- Understanding the continuum of activism, from protest and anger through to advocacy and sustainable social change.
- Ways to avoid polarisation and build dialogue, including practical approaches to calling in rather than calling out.
- How emotional intelligence, self-regulation, and letting go of dogma enable more effective engagement and transformation.
- The significance of life experience and personal awakening in recognising privilege, oppression, and collective suffering.
- Actionable insights on fostering connection, avoiding comparative suffering, and building empathy even when opinions differ.

## FAQs

### What is the central theme of this episode?

The main focus is on healing and equanimity in the context of social change and inclusion. The discussion explores how to balance passion for justice with sustainable, compassionate approaches to difficult conversations and activism.

### Who are the speakers in this episode?

The host is Joanne Lockwood of SEE Change Happen, and the guest is Jared Karol, a personal development coach operating at the intersection of social change and healing.

### What does the term 'equanimity' mean in the context of DEI work?

Joanne Lockwood and Jared Karol describe equanimity as the capacity to handle both adversity and success with composure, poise, and emotional stability. In DEI, it’s about navigating difficult conversations and situations without becoming overwhelmed, defensive, or shutting down.

### Why is emotional regulation important in social justice and inclusion work?

Emotional regulation, or 'emotional sobriety', allows individuals to engage in change-making without causing harm to themselves or others, making their efforts more sustainable and effective. Jared Karol relates this skill to his own journey, highlighting its importance in sparse and heated environments.

### How does the episode address the tension between passionate activism and sustainable change?

The conversation identifies the roles of both passionate protest and more nuanced, pragmatic approaches in driving societal change. Joanne Lockwood and Jared Karol acknowledge the need for a spectrum of roles—from frontline protesters to policymakers—to effect meaningful transformation, noting that maturing as a change-maker often means moving toward dialogue, connection, and healing.

### What personal stories are shared to illustrate the themes?

Jared Karol recounts his experience as the son of a gay man and how that shaped his early activism, leading to attempts at healing and self-awareness. He discusses his father’s influence, the significance of connection and letting go, and his journey toward inner work and mindfulness.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 187, the title Healing at the Heart. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Jared Carroll. Jared is a personal development coach working at the intersection of social change and healing. He helps people understand who they are so they can show up more consciously, courageously and sustainably in the world. When I asked Jared to describe his superpower, he said it is bringing equanimity to difficult conversations so people can stay present, honest and open instead of shutting down or fighting back. Hello, Jared. Welcome to the show. Hello, Jo. Thank you for having

Jared Karol: me. Great to be here. Absolute pleasure. And we were. We've been

Joanne Lockwood: yakking away for probably 25 minutes and we had to press record quickly, otherwise everything we talk about is going to end up on the floor and be lost for time. But we were. We talked about the fact that you live in Oakland, California. I do, yeah. That gave us something in common because I was in Oakland a year ago. A year and a half ago.

Jared Karol: That's right. Well, you said you were at HR west emceeing the conference. I spoke at HR West. I think it was 2019. 2018 19, but. Yeah, right. Downtown Oakland, 10 minutes, same place. The Marriott Convention Centre, was it? Yeah, they have a big, big building there down like. I think it's. Yeah. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool.

Joanne Lockwood: And. And back at me. You're a football fan, so you've. Sorry, UK soccer fan. So you follow the English Premiership. So you know about Portsmouth and where I come from. Because you follow the team.

Jared Karol: I do. I. His. I. Well. And maybe we'll get into this because it's part of my journey, but I was a college athlete. Not soccer, but lacrosse. And I was a big Sports guy in my youth, in college and young, Young adult. And then I decided I didn't want to be that guy anymore. But I kind of had one. One little thing I couldn't let go from my youth, which was. Which was soccer. So I decided, well, if I'm going to follow sport, I'm just going to pick one, one country. And I chose England. And so. So I know the. I know the British geography largely through where the soccer teams are. That's a. That's a really, really good way of doing it. And I know

Joanne Lockwood: many Brits who follow American football or basketball or baseball, and they know all of the names of the clubs and where they are in their world. So, yeah, I guess if you're going to learn geography, tie it to something and why not sport? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, happy to be

Jared Karol: here and talk about whatever makes sense for us to talk about. Well, let's start with the word that I was you

Joanne Lockwood: put into your bio and show notes as equanimity. I struggled there. I struggled to pronounce it the first time because I'd never used it before. And so I even had to feed it to copilot to look up what it meant. But you said that word has sat with you for a couple of decades, so why did you bring that into the conversation? I bring it into all conversations about

Jared Karol: anything trivial or serious or anything in between. The way I define it, actually, I don't really have a concise, tidy definition like copilot I gave you, but I see it as a way for us, for me, for you, for anyone to. The hardships, the suffering, the challenges, the situations that we face, just as, you know, being human with. With composure, with poise, with calmness, without. Without freaking out, without getting too down or perpetuating. Perpetuating a storyline that may or may not often is not true. And then conversely, when you know the quote, unquote, good things happen. Not getting too elated, not getting too high, not getting too cocky. And so just it's this kind of ongoing self and meta awareness of what's going on and having the confidence to know I can handle it, even if I don't like it, even if it's hard, even if I don't know what to do or what to say, I can handle it. So as we both know, doing this type of work, those are important skills to have, and a lot of people do have them, but a lot of people don't. And then in your superpower, you

Joanne Lockwood: said it's about avoiding shutting down or fighting back. And when you are oppressed, marginalised, at the brunt of somebody else's bullying or discrimination, those are often the two choices, aren't they? Shut down, run away, tail between your legs, or come out with teeth showing and growling and is trying to sit somewhere in the middle there where you can engage in the conversation. And that's a really tough thing to do when you're under that psychological pressure. It

Jared Karol: is. And I'm a, you know, I'm a cis straight white man. So I have, I'm, I'm at the top of the privilege food chain. So for, I think for a long time, I mean, I've been doing this work for 25 years. My father was a, was a gay man. He died of AIDS in 2000. And that's when I decided to change really to do the work. And so when I started doing the work, it was the typical kind of social justice warrior, like, okay, time to wake up, Jared. You've been, you know, ignoring all this stuff for, you know, your whole life and now it's time to not. So I jumped into that work. I was teaching at the time, that was my profession. And I was, I was snarky, I was acerbic, I was dogmatic, I was, you know, things were new to me, new theories, new philosophies, new understandings of history that I hadn't really, I mean, I had had some exposure to some of this through my dad, but I wasn't really listening that closely or, you know, didn't, it didn't affect me who I thought. So I'd say for the first, you know, eight to 10 years, I was that, you know, newly woke white guy who was telling everyone how unwoke they were until I decided that that wasn't really effective or sustainable, which I'm sure we'll jump into many, many stories of how and why and how I, how I shifted. But that's, that's a good place to start with where I was back then. Yeah, I think it is the temptation

Joanne Lockwood: when you're trying to educate people, you want to, you want to educate them by being right and they want to be uneducated by being right themselves and not needing to be educated. It's trying to find that balance of how to educate without telling, isn't it? How to show don't tell.

Jared Karol: Yeah, it's. Which is interesting you bring that up because I was a teacher for 12 years and for most of that time I taught middle school humanities, you know, language arts, writing history, I taught a social justice curriculum. So everything was through the lens of power and privilege. And whether it was literature or history or current events or classroom dynamics, it was all through these lenses. And that was. I was fortunate and intentional about finding a school that allowed me to, you know, not only it allowed me, but that was what the school did and that they expected and supported us in doing. But to your point, yeah, we see that the world is unjust, is inequitable, is unfair historically and contemporarily on a micro and macro, on a local and global level. And we want change yesterday. And so we get upset when people don't see that as clearly or as quickly or as urgently as we do. And so that causes us to. To be more upset because if. If this person or this community or this, you know, this government only saw. And so then it becomes charged. And I'm not saying there isn't a place for charged or for protest or for other things, but which again, we. I'm sure we'll dive into more details, but I think we lose track of what we're actually trying to do and we don't realise that we're actually not being effect our. Call it what you want to call it, fervour, righteousness. And I would argue that that has. Has contributed to the challenges that we in this industry, dei, hr, social justice, whatever, however expansive or narrow, we want to define that as some of the challenges that we. That we. I think I, as I've matured, you

Joanne Lockwood: know, I'm in my. I'm in my early 60s. How did that happen? You know, I think over your. The arc of your life, you go through different phases, don't you? And I think I. I've become to learn that even though I'm more settled in my ways, more relaxed, more calm, more pragmatic, more logical, always I'm able to shift my thinking from my amygdala into my prefrontal cortex. Easier. Today. I don't get triggered. I'm able to feed my human emotions differently. But I also recognise that in order to enact change, you need different people with different levels of passion, if you like, for whatever way. You do need the people who are the angry social, not necessarily the mob, but the angry social justice warriors who are fighting for the cause, who are whipping up people who are in that same space as they are. But then you've got the people on the other side who are looking for political change, which is slow, methodical, nuanced, persuasive, lobbying, all those kind of things. You've got people in the middle who are trying to do a bit of both and try and do it. I've come to realise that as I swing towards the more nuanced, logical approach, there's still a place for the people who want to wear the T shirt, march, those sort of things. Well, I think

Jared Karol: there's. What I've learned is there three, three perspectives to take in this work. There's the why, there's the what and there's the how. So the why. I would imagine or, or hope or suspect that every person doing this work, social justice, dei, change, work, right, Has. Has a personal why. They may or may not have, have be clear about it or really know it. Maybe they haven't done that work, but there's something that's driving them to do this work, right, which is good. You need that. Or else, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? Right? Then there's the what, which I think is what. What you were kind of getting at. Like, what is your role? So I'm a coach, I'm a facilitator. You know, some. Some people might be, you know, a community organiser, some people might be head of, you know, DEI at A. @ a big company or, you know, whatever. They're. Maybe you're a speaker. So there's. There's the what. And then I was reminded, as you were talking of, I don't have it super handy. Maybe we can, after the show, we can put a link to it so people have it. But there's a woman named Deepa Iyer and she has this. What does she call it? The social change ecosystem. And she talks about the different roles that are needed and they. Not all of us are and can be frontline protesters, rebel rabble rousers. There needs. There need to be caretakers, educators, coaches, storyteller. I mean, and she has this whole kind of, you know, graphic that illustrates it very, very well. And that gets to the. For me, the why, the what, the how, I think is under underappreciated and under emphasised because, especially if you see someone like me who, as I said, you know, a little bit ago, very comes from a privileged position doing this work, it's easy to dismiss my angle into this work as well. Of course you're privileged, so of course you can do that. But what about me, who has, you know, X, Y, Z marginalised identities, which is fair and taking this approach is open to anyone if they have the wisdom and maturity to see it. And so that's what I have come to emphasise and focus on in My work and I can share some personal experiences that have led directly to that. But it's the how. How are we going about the work that is going to be effective and sustainable and build community, build connection. It's so easy to dismiss people who don't get it, who don't want to get it, who are hurtful, harmful, but the ways we've been going about it aren't working and they're not going to bring about the change that we say we. Want. As you're talking, I'm thinking about

Joanne Lockwood: some famous people in history that have probably themselves transitioned through. There's different ways of enacting change. You know, Nelson Mandela, for example, he was a freedom fighter terrorist. Prison probably calmed him down, but he came out a state statesman of the nation, the grandfather of the nation who then enacted change through political discourse, dialogue, calmness and reason. Lech was instrumental in the fall down of the Cold War, the Berlin war coming down in the 80s, the Solidarity Movement. He was a freedom fighter. And we look at Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, these people started off by, in the protest, freedom fighter space and then transitioned into the reasonable politician or the logical response. I think. Yeah, I think that's probably a natural arc of evolution. I. Think. Well, it is and it can be,

Jared Karol: and I hate to use the word should, but I would argue that it would be beneficial on an individual and collective level if it was that arc. And, you know, I don't think someone has to, you know, be in prison for 27 years to, you know, to come to that. Not really a conclusion, but to come to that awareness. Right. So how do you, how do all of us, you know, the people on the street doing this work, how do we come to those, that awareness ourselves without, you know, those, those big dire, you know, historically relevant and known, you know, events in our life, because we don't all have those, right? We have, you know, we have our own things. We have our own local things, our own personal things, our own, you know, but they're just as important. They're just as. They're just as relevant. And so how do we individually decide, you know, what? I'm not giving up on this work, but I'm going to do it differently so that it's more sustainable and more effective. And it's building what I want to see, not just taking down what I don't want to see. And there's all kinds, you know, there's so many people, you know, contemporary people who are doing this work. And I've, I mean, I can, I'M sure we'll get into some of them. But one who, who immediately comes to mind is actually, he lives in Oakland as well, Dr. Sean Ginright. And he wrote a book, I think it's fairly recent, a couple years ago, maybe 20, 22 or so, called the four pivots. He gist of the book is switching from trauma informed work to healing centred or healing centred, healing engaged. And so his first of the four pivots is from lens to mirror. Right. So the lens is the world is inequitable, unjust, unfair, we need to change it. Here's what we're going to do. So it's not like that goes away or that's wrong, but the mirror is okay, how do I need to change? What am I doing or not doing that's contributing to the chaos, to the, you know, to the status quo? And so he talks and I follow his, you know, his newsletter and he send once or twice a week, he'll share a little video and, and he's a, you know, he's a black man. So that's just one small example of this isn't just a privileged, you know, white guy thing. In fact, most of the people who I've been influenced by have been folks of colour, queer folks of colour, trans folks, people who are in, in multiple ways, have experienced and still are experiencing marginalisation, injustice, et cetera. And so I, I take. What's the word I want to look for? I guess I don't want to say like, oh, I'm glad, I'm glad they're experiencing that, because I'm not, but I'm. I'm glad that it's an. So many examples of people who have chosen, kind of what you were getting at with Nelson Mandela and others have chosen to do their work differently and are better for it and the world is better for. It. Yeah. Again, as you're talking, my mind's

Joanne Lockwood: racing ahead, thinking, you touched a few buttons there. And I'm thinking in my own experience, about 12, 15 years ago, I awoke for one of the, you know, to paraphrase, lived same as you. I'd lived a lived life of privilege on the outside, benefited from that privilege. And then suddenly I, I stepped out of that lane into another lane and it was, it was a lot tougher, a lot harder, a lot more. And I think once I look back at that time, I definitely see myself transitioning through that awareness of what's going on in the world. Suddenly I'd lost a lot of privilege and gained a lot of marginalisation for Want a better way of describing it. And I think that then woke me up to the injustice in the world. I think maybe when you say you talk to people there, queer people, people of colour, whatever it may be, is they've, they've, they've, they've started to. They've experienced this wind in their face all their lives, or they suddenly open the door and it's hit them and you go, hang on a minute. Whereas if you never open that door, you never feel that wind, you never have that feeling of being marginalised. It's really hard to build empathy with someone who has. You haven't got any reference point, have.

Jared Karol: You? Well, that's why, you know, people in our industry use the phrase, you know, do the work. It's ubiquitous, right? Do the work, do your work, do the work. We gotta do the work. And we do. But I think sometimes do the work is. Is implied too narrowly, I think, when people, because I've had so many conversations and either personal conversations or witnessed kind of conversations or been part of online conversations, where do the work means get woke and they're talking to privileged folks. Do the work. Understand kind of what you were taught, understand why we're so upset, why black folks are so upset about racism, why queer folks are so upset, et cetera. And that is necessary and I don't disagree with that at all. Yes, do that work. And to me, do the work also includes just as equally. And if I was a good graphic designer, I'd have some fancy little graphic that would show this in maybe like a quadrant or something, means do your inner work, do your inner work, do your healing work, whatever that looks like. For me, it's been Buddhist meditation, mindfulness philosophy. Right. The equanimity stuff that we started with doesn't have to be everyone's, you know, angle into it, but there has to be something that is, that is healing. Or else, as I keep coming back to, it's the other work that you're doing isn't going to be effective or sustainable. So the other part of my story that, you know, I said my, My father, he was. So I was, I was 14 and I was, I was. Lived in San Diego and my dad had moved to San Francisco. We'd been there, I think, since I was 11. So I'd go up and visit him and it was kind of cool to come from the suburbs and go to the big city and ride the cable cars and, you know, all the, all the fun. Go to, go to Haight street and see all the hippies. And, you know, all the. All the San Francisco touristy things. So I was 14, end of my freshman year in high school. And he sat me down at the end of the weekend, and it was usually one of those, hey, I love you, Jared. I wish we could see each other more often. You're a good kid. You know, all those things, which he did do. And then he said, you know something? You should know I'm gay, so I'm 14. This is the late 80s. We know what was going on in the world, especially in the United States. Reagan was still, I think, president, maybe for a little bit longer. So there's a huge stigma. So I didn't tell anyone. I went home. I cried, I went home, and I didn't tell anyone for almost six years. I had the privilege of geographical separation. No one knew my dad. They knew he lived in San Francisco. And I'd go up and see him three, four, five times a year. But I went through all the rest of high school and halfway through college without telling anyone because I was embarrassed. I was ashamed. I was confused. My dad and I had a. We. We. We had a decent relationship. But about halfway through college, I was a college athlete, and I wasn't mature enough to. To have a. Have a gay dad, to own that, right? So he and his partner would visit, you know, every once in a while, and I'd have to arrange things or make up lies. And. Yeah, it's my dad and his friend, and we're just going out to lunch and. No, no, you know, we don't need to invite any of my friends. Dad.

Joanne Lockwood: It's. Cool. Like, that kind of. I don't know if I can swear on this

Jared Karol: podcast, but that kind of bs, right? So finally, summer of my. So after my sophomore year, about halfway through college, I was with my friend Amy and I. And she was my best friend since. Since high school. She went to school in Colorado, and we were in the mountains camping, and I said, amy, I gotta tell you something. She's like, what's going on? You're being weird. I said, my dad's gay. Said, big fucking deal. So I was 20 years old. And that was. That was the. The moment that I wouldn't say I changed all of a sudden. And just like, with his was this, you know, gay. Gay rights advocate. But that opened up like, oh, like, this is. This is. This is a me thing. This is like a limiting belief that I have. So it started growing and growing a little bit. And then when he was. When I was 27 is when. When he passed. And so when he, he, he was HIV positive and so he, I would go up and visit him. You know, I'm in my mid-20s now, out of college, still living back in San Diego and I'd go up to visit him and he started going to these gay men's meditation circles in Dubose, Dubose Triangle. People know the city, it's right next to the Castro. It's like kind of a cute little neighbourhood. And it would just, it'd be him with like three other men in their 40s and 50s and this woman who led it and then me, this 26 year old kid and, and this woman would lead these like little. It was in this super huge like open yoga studio with skylights and hardwood. It was beautiful. And she would lead us in these, in these meditations. Sitting, we do like walking, chew, like eating like all this stuff that I know now is like, you know, Buddhist stuff. But at the time I hated, was physically uncomfortable, it was hard to sit still. But my dad, who was never religious or even spiritual, he knew he was, you know, he knew he was going to die soon. And so he felt that he needed something to ground him. And so that's what he did. And I was, I know now that I was lucky to be exposed to that. I probably went to those sessions maybe not even a half a dozen times, probably four times. And when he died I decided, and it wasn't with the clarity that I had, but I decided that I would do the work that I described before to understand the injustices, but I would also do my personal work and develop equanimity, develop, cultivate the healing for myself so that I could do the work more effectively. So that's the origins of the, or the, the original origins. There are more recent stories that have deepened my appreciation and belief in the need for healing. But that was the, the original genesis of. It. When you said yeah, your friend

Joanne Lockwood: said was it? Amy said, big deal, you know, no big deal. No biggie whatever about your dad being gay. Completely, completely, completely resonate with that as you're saying that I was thinking the only person is technically a big deal for. And this is my own experience here is there is your wife, your partner, your husband or whatever it may be in that relationship. That's probably the only person who it's allowed to be a big deal for because it is so intrinsically linked to that other person, that contract you have in a relationship. Whereas if you're a parent, a child, a brother, sister, friend, big deal, it's yeah, get over it. And my wife, it was a big deal for her. It was a big deal for her. Be gender transitioning. Everybody else was inconvenienced by it, everyone else was kind of having an opinion about it. But one person that it really mattered to was my wife and we were able to work through it. But, yeah, it was a big deal to. Her. Well, it's

Jared Karol: interesting you share that because that's a good segue to the next part of the story, which is so what I've learned and come to understand about healing. This is a vast generalisation, but I think it's helpful just for this conversation, two things cultivate healing, two areas of mindset, connection and letting go. I don't know how much time we'll have to get into the details of what all those look like, but generally letting go doesn't mean ignoring or dismissing, just means being lighter. Right. Understanding what's going on for ourselves, for the world, for the people we care about and not carrying it so heavily and so, so often and so much where it impacts. Your. Right. It's where you're not. Equanimous. Right? And connection. Right. Connection to other people. Right. When we're doing this work, it can feel isolating. Right. People don't get it. People aren't changing like I'd like them to or as quickly as I'd like them to. You know, where are my people? Like all these. Things. Right. And it's not just in social justice work, just in life. So it was about. Actually, I was sitting right here at this table. It's my dining room table, 12 years ago. 12, 13 years ago. And my mom was visiting. I have twins, they're 16 as of this recording, so they were like 4. My mom was visiting and we were sitting at this table, it was a Friday night and we were playing cards is what we do. I, at the time, I had a. I had started a. I'd left teaching and I'd started a daddy blog, probably like in 2010, 11. So I had this blog for a couple years and it was, it was. It had some decent reach and, you know, I was in some writing communities and. And of course I was initially, I was writing about my kids and kind of more, you know, satirical stuff about being the father of twins and how, How. How hard it was and everything. But then it started evolving. I started writing more about politics and my dad, and that was when I first started writing about my stories that I now very openly and easily share about, you know, some of what I've just shared and other stories. So my mom was a regular reader of the blog, but she was not a major character in any of the. Stories. So. And we talked about it a little bit. Like she'd leave a comment and you know, we go. But it was very superficial and I kind of dismissed her. So we're sitting here playing cards and out of nowhere. We weren't even talking about the blog. She just says, you know, Jared, you write a lot about how your dad being gay influenced you and your politics, but you never write about how he wasn't around to raise you. Mike. Yeah, it's like, oh my God. And I don't remember the rest of that conversation. I'm sure it didn't. It wasn't like, oh, you're right, mom, like, it wasn't. It was. I probably had tried to go somewhere else and. But I remember that night very clearly and that was the beginning of. Or maybe not the beginning, but another clear marker of like. That's right, connection. Here's my mom who. She was 19 when she had me. Hippie in the 60s. My dad was gay, he knew he was gay, but you don't come out as gay in the United or anywhere in 1970. So he meets this 17 year old girl, right, Move off to college town, get married when she's 18, I'm born, you know, a year, a year and a half later and then two years later my dad finally has the courage to say, hey, you know, this isn't working. And he does his own thing. So now my mom is 21 with a 2 year old with no education, no, no real skills, and raised me. And yes, we grew up poor and it was all the things and you know, and saw my dad fairly regularly. But she's right, he wasn't, he wasn't around to raise me. And so I realised, or I started to realise and I know now like that connection, right, not just to my dad or to my mom, but connection to people and their stories and their realities that, you know, Brene Brown and others talk about this whole of like comparative suffering. Was it, you know, was my dad's life harder than my mom's? Yeah, probably, but who cares? Like they were both hard for, you know, for various reasons and if we dismiss that, where are we. Right? What we end

Joanne Lockwood: up doing is trading pain, isn't it? It's sort of, yeah, I've had it tougher than you have and it's. We all go through stuff, we all have our stuff to deal with and it's not about my life, is Tougher than yours. It's just, it's all relative, you know, it's, you know, if you got a million dollars in the bank and having a tough life because of something, it's a different experience than if you've got $5 in the bank and you're having a tough life. Your circumstances are all relative, aren't. They? Well, they are. And

Jared Karol: I think, and I try to be very mindful of not being dogmatic with my, you know, Buddhist beliefs, but it's been 25, well, 26 years now, really, since I've kind of was introduced to some of these concepts of, like, equanimity and interconnectedness and. But we're. I mean, it sounds almost cliche or trite, but, like, we're all interconnected. And so I'll give you an example. I reached out to you, I don't know how long ago, A month ago? Not even a month ago. Probably three weeks. Ago. Yeah,

Joanne Lockwood: on LinkedIn. Yeah, on. LinkedIn. You know, I have this new.

Jared Karol: This new coaching programme that we're launching, which we can talk about in a little bit. And we. We've been connected for, I don't know, four or five years. You know, like, just like LinkedIn does. Like, we're connected, but I don't remember you, and you probably didn't remember me, and I. So I reached out and said, hey, I know we've been connected for a while, and it was a template message. Right. I know we've been connected for a while and here's this new thing and see if it resonates with you. So that's how you invited me to this podcast. Okay, great. That's a great result of the outreach. Well, similarly, I reached out to someone else who, similarly, we'd been connected for five years, but had no idea who they were and said this message and she responded. Before I continue this conversation, please point me to your organization's publicly displayed stance on the. On the genocide in Palestine. Fair enough. We don't have one. I don't have a publicly displayed stance on the genocide in Palestine. So what I maybe should have done is just said, we don't have one. Thank you for your time. You know, next. But I chose curiosity over boundaries. And I said, hey, totally get that. I am. I am aware that there's a genocide in Palestine. I believe there is one. I'm against it, but I've chosen and I try to give some philosophy of my equanimity in my life and all the things. And, you know, she went total ridicule and mockery. And what's the, what's the argument when you attack some ad hominem attacks? It's my character, which. And then I continue the conversation. Cause I'm like, okay. Like, she's. And it just kept evolving and it was really. It was really immature. So then I said, okay, hey, obviously this isn't working. You know, she's making fun of the, of the programme that we were, that we were having. She was making fun of my, My outreach skill, you know, just anything she could do to belittle me. So I'm like, okay, I can handle that. Like, it's not about me, it's about her. But it still doesn't feel good. But it wasn't like, it didn't. It didn't challenge my belief in what I was doing. But then I went and I had been trying to write a little bit more on LinkedIn just to, you know, kind of get. Get some, Some thought leadership out there. She went through about six or eight posts and used the laughing emoji. So that point I had to block her, which I don't like doing. But it was clear that she not only wasn't interested in what we had to offer, which is totally fine. That's how sales works. Like, not everyone's gonna be like, yes, sign me up for your programme. But then it went that. And so I was thinking like, hmm, a healed person doesn't do that. And what was the impact of that for her? I don't know. I'll never know because obviously we're not gonna. She's not gonna have a conversation with me. I don't think she has a podcast and isn't gonna invite me on if she does. So I share that as just a very recent example of what I'm. What I've been seeing for years and years, and I would never have done that, what she did, but 15 years ago. I do that type of stuff. Maybe not as extreme thinking that, because the cause is just that the. How the behaviour is acceptable and it's. It's. Not. So

Joanne Lockwood: I. I've been the brunt of other people's ad hominem attacks and laughing emojis on my posts. And you should look at my TikTok and my YouTube channel and all the comments on there. It's just. Yeah, it's all personal attacks. There's no argument. It's just attacking me, my voice, how I look, how. Yeah, all this kind of. Well, and so. Yeah. And

Jared Karol: I mean, I don't need to tell you this, Joanne like someone listening to this conversation right now might say, jared, you're a straight man. Joanne is a trans woman, like, who has it. Harder.

Joanne Lockwood: But. That'S. That's not the point. It's the whole master's tools will never

Jared Karol: dismantle the master's house. Is that the goal of, you know, marginalised, oppressed people? To flip it so then they can. No, I don't think it is. Most of the people who I talk to, who I'm in relationship with, don't. That's not the goal. And A, that's not really possible. And B, it's not sustainable. And so it's the shortsightedness of it that, you know, it doesn't get us where we're trying. It's just colluding. It hasn't changed me. I mean, I told her and she chose not to believe me, that. I mean, it's not that I disagree that there's a genocide in Palestine or that it. That it's bad or that it's harmful or that it should stop. I agree with all that. And, you know, her mocking me doesn't make the genocide. End. What it did

Joanne Lockwood: was it shut down an opportunity for education. Because I'd love to have a conversation with people about their perspective on what's happening. I've got friends on both sides of the equation who live in that region and I hear different opinions. I've spent some time in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and Bethlehem and places like that on work conferences and things, meeting the people. And I've got people in this country who have strong opinions on both sides. And my view is the death, the killing of the lives being ruined, the carpet bombing of property and the destruction of assets and wealth. Completely abhorrent. But beyond who's right and wrong, we just stop it. And then we can work out how we get from where we are now to where we need to be, which is getting people back into life and getting things moving. I think we have to unpack all of the why and the blame. We'll just spend all our time blaming each other and throwing. Throwing more missiles, either words or things. We're not going to solve it, but we need to. We need to bury our. Bury our prisoners of our beliefs and just say, hang on a minute. Holding onto where we are now is not going to change. Anything. Yeah, well,

Jared Karol: that. I mean, you use the word holding on. And as I said a little bit ago, what I've come to understand is two things lead to healing, letting go. So not letting go of fighting for justice but letting go of the, the dogma, the, the us versus them, all the things, right? And then connection wants to be. Right. People want to be right, don't. They? Well, when you were, when you were summarising kind of, you know, what I had shared, I thought of a phrase that I learned recently in a book called Cultish. I forget the author, but she was writing about just, yes, like actual cults, like Manson and you know, Jonestown and stuff, but all just the kind of the, the cultish mindset around things, even like marketing and everything. And she said, you know, when, when you know, a leader or a member of a group. And I would say if you've read Woke racism by John McWhorter, he talks about this like the, the Woke mob is kind of a cult. It's like this religion, right? Like either here's, here's the right way to believe and if you, if you deviate from that, then you're going to be excommunicated is, you know, the, the extent of the analogy. Right. But this author in Cultists, she, she introduced a phrase that I hadn't heard before called a thought, a thought terminating. Cliche. Okay. Cool. So I don't know exactly what this woman who I was talking about, what she would have said that would exactly fit that as a thought terminating cliche. But the whole exchange was a thought terminating cliche. She wasn't interested in dialogue, she wasn't interested in nuance. She was interested in I didn't meet her standards and that was not okay. And therefore I was eligible for mockery, ridicule, et cetera. So in the grand scheme of things, that's pretty minor. Like I have equanimity, I can handle it. I'm not, I don't take it personally, but like that kind of nonsense happens all the time. And so I'm finding there seems to be a divide. Maybe not a divide, a continuum, I think is a better word of people who are somewhere on their awareness of what healing is and looks like and the need for it personally and as a society from, let's take this woman probably isn't interested in it at all. Although I don't really know because I'm not going to have that conversation with her. To people who like, yeah, like. One of my favourite thinkers and writers is Lama Rod Owens. He's a queer black man and he's a, he's a, you know, a lama, ordained Buddhist lama. And he's written a couple books. His first one was called Love and Rage. And it gets at exactly this dynamic, the world is messed up. It has been for a long time and it's personally affected me as a gay black man and I'm just gonna self destruct if I don't change. And so he, he did, he has, he is. And his new book, newish book is called the New Saints. He's like, how do we, how do we hold all of this complexity and nuance without self destructing, without giving up or compromising our values, but also without self and self destructing and causing more chaos, more destruction to others. So it's people like him who have lived it much more deeply than I have, who I'm learning from. And there are people out there who are toward that end of the continuum of understanding and appreciation and action. But there's still a lot of people who are the social justice warriors who think that the cause is just so. The behaviour is. Just. What you're trying to do is

Joanne Lockwood: you're trying to. You're waterboarding people really, aren't you? You're just pouring water and hoping you drink this, drink this, drink this, drink this. Not allowing people to breathe. When you're that passionate, you think that everybody thinks like you or you want everyone to think like you and be angry like you and you're all this baggage. Yes, it's important that people hear your story. What. We're not trying to divide up between the what you believe and the why you believe it. This scenario you talked about here, you never had the opportunity to understand the why. Why are you so passionate about this topic? If you lost a loved one, if something happened, your personal attack on you, this is why you're so angry, so fired up. You never got the point to build empathy, you just built, as you said, it's at the beginning. Shutting down or fighting back. She was fighting back. You were shutting down. There was no way of. I'm out. Goodbye. We're now asking these questions. We want to know what her passion was, why she had this. All that educational purpose has been lost because the disengagement. Happened. Yeah, well, to her it was very clear as

Jared Karol: I'm processing it, or translating it, I guess, right is there's a genocide, it's wrong. People need to fight for it, do whatever they can, even if it's small. You're not meaning me, you're not. I don't see anything that demonstrates that you're, you know, at the level of understanding and agreement with me. So therefore you are, and I learned this term recently, an unreal. Other. Okay. Which I mean, that's basically what historical oppression does to trans people, to gay people, to black people, to poor people, to immigrants, to. Right. They're unreal, others

Joanne Lockwood: so dehumanising. Basically. Dehumanising, Right. Because if you

Jared Karol: dehumanise, if she comes to this quick, you know, conclusion that I don't get it, don't care, ignoring, you know, basking in my privilege about the genocide in. In Palestine, then I'm an unreal Other, then I don't. There's no need. There's no need to have empathy, curiosity, compassion for me because, you know, I don't deserve it. Which is exactly what Israel is doing to Palestine. And count dozens, hundreds, thousands of examples from history that exactly the same type of thinking. Right. And so we're just repeating, you know, we're colluding. There's a great book called the the Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute. And the main thrust of it is when our heart is at war, as to use their language, which doesn't mean hard at war, doesn't mean we're angry, we're upset, we're seeing something that needs to change. It just means how are we processing those emotions. So if our heart's at war, whether it's an interpersonal conflict or a global conflict, there will never be resolution. Never. We're just colluding. And so that's where I've landed the last couple years is. It's a clarity, Joanne. It's a clarity of like, I don't believe any less, any less than I used to about the injustices in the world, but I also see more clearly about what's not working for me and for all of us, and I'm not gonna be part of that collusion and anymore. And I'm. Not. So calling it in rather than

Joanne Lockwood: calling it out, just be partly educated rather than the stop. Sign. That's a. Yeah, that's a way to summarise it, I'd say

Jared Karol: to use that language. My calling in is doing the coaching that I do, right? Is who's ready, who sees this, even just a little bit, and knows that there's a better way, but for whatever reason, hasn't gone that route yet. So that's where I. That's. That's my version of calling in, hey, I'm calling you in to do some. Some deep inner work, some mirror work. You got the lens part pretty down. I trust that you understand the issues and you see why there's a, you know, why there's problematic things going on and why they need to change. I'm not questioning until you show otherwise. I'm going to trust that you got that part down. What I am seeing very clearly is that you don't have the inner part going on. So if you're interested in that, because you can't, you know, this woman that I told the story, she's not going to be a coaching client of mine. Although, I mean, you know, she could be. She's a good candidate based on her behaviours. But, you know, if you're not interested in going there, I mean, just like any coaching, like, you're not gonna, you know, it's like kids taking piano. If they don't want to do it, they're not gonna. They're not gonna do. It. So,

Joanne Lockwood: yeah, I mean, as you pointed out, you know, you reached out to me with potentially the same message you reached out to her with. Clearly it was a template. Clearly it was a salesy kind of like, yep, do you want to do my coaching programme? Pay me a hundred dollars or whatever it was. You've got two choices at that point there. You can either get sort of like abusive trend or disconnect or whatever it is. And depending on what mood I'm in, quite. Sometimes I'll just sit there and playfully say, not for me, but if you want to come and talk about my podcast, let's do it sort of thing. And that's what I'd.

Jared Karol: Hear. Yeah. So here's. Who was it? I can't remember who it was. It was someone you wouldn't think of, but there was this. So I was. I'm also a certified purpose coach. So like seven, eight years ago, I got my purpose coaching certification. It's all about like leadership style and intrinsic motivation and kind of what motivates you to. To make impact and to do the things you do and stuff. So it's all integrated into all this. But so purpose, right? This idea of purpose is like intrinsic motivation, meaning authenticity. And there's, you know, all kinds of different angles one could go into, like, what is your purpose? But sometimes people, oftentimes people conflate purpose with passion. So the passion, you know, people. I don't like to use the word passion. I don't mind if other people do, but I don't personally use it. I don't consider myself a passionate person. If people want to, you know, describe me as that, that's. That's fine. But this woman, this author, I can picture her doing this little mini TED Talk, but I don't know who she is. She says sometimes our passion because we're so passionate, and it gets so charged because we're so passionate about whatever it is we're passionate about gets in the way of our purpose. So that our purpose, our true why, doesn't really actualize. So to me, that is a nice little encapsulation of, like, what healing means. How do you let go? Which, again, doesn't mean ignore or, you know, kind of get rid of stuff you care about, but how do you let go of that passion so that your purpose can come through? And I think that's part of. That's a lot of the work that I do is people see that inflation a little more. Clearly.

Joanne Lockwood: Back to the ad hominem attacks technique I found that seems to work for me. Is I a bit like in the Matrix where Neos or, like. And the bullet goes flying straight past? I kind of try and do that because the person who's attacking me doesn't know me, knows nothing about my values or anything like this. They're using this stereotypical Persona of me, and I always think of it. It's just what they're doing is they're spraying graffiti on a wall. It's just raising angry words on a wall. And I drive down the street and I see the graffiti on the wall. Okay. It makes me feel worried and threatened because it's there, but it's just graffiti. And all I've got to do is just keep driving and drive past it. So I'm doing that sort of, Neo, bullet passes me, they're attacking me, and all they're really doing is spraying graffiti on a wall behind me. And it's not. It's not about me. It's about their anger about something, and it's not about me. So I'm able to, you know, this equanimity you talk about being able to hold this space. I don't absorb it. I just go, whoa. Yeah, okay, well, it's not me. You're talking about somebody else here. Because if you knew me, you would not say. That.

Jared Karol: Exactly. And even that's a beautiful analogy with the metaphor I can picture, especially living in Oakland, San Francisco. There's lots of graffiti around, some of it actually quite beautiful. But that's a whole nother. Conversation.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Street. Art. Yeah, but exactly. There's another. I

Jared Karol: mean, I'm a big reader. If I was downstairs, you'd see my big library. But another book that I. That has been fundamental, foundational for my belief system is the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. And it's interesting when I bring up that book either people go like, oh, my gosh, I love that book. If they've heard of it, Right? I love that book where they go, yeah, that's like pop spirituality, which is totally fair. It's like, you know, 150 pages. But for me, the four agreements. The first agreement is don't take anything personally. I'm sorry. The second agreement is don't take anything personally. And in the book, he says, nothing anybody ever does is because of you. It's always because of themselves. So that. Now, that doesn't mean it's easy to take the. You know. But that's what we do. We know that foundationally and we process that. And maybe we need coaching or therapy or other sources of support, but if we know that that's not about us, and if we feel confident that we're acting in alignment with our values and integrity, the more we practise that, the more we can see it clearly for what it is. Right. I'm not a cause of the genocide in Palestine. No matter how much this woman wants to paint it as that, it's about her. Right. But collectively, we can. We can all agree,

Joanne Lockwood: need to stop. Whatever's going on needs to stop. And we as a world need to help people rebuild and press pause on what's going on at the moment. Have conversations. Yeah, yeah. And me putting a statement on my website won't do that, but I will speak up about my opinion in situations where it's relevant completely all the. Time. Well, I'm. I'm inspired by. You brought up

Jared Karol: Nelson Mandela, like, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh, who just died a few years ago, actually, on my kid's birthday, I think it was two years ago, three years ago, you know, he was a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who got exiled during the Vietnam War because he was speaking up, you know, and he wasn't saved. So he. I can't remember if he ever eventually did go back or not, but basically, he never got. You know, he didn't really get to ever go back to his country and he continued his work and he died, I think he was 1995. So for 60 years, he was doing his. You know, what was his phrase that he used? Like, active Buddhism or something like that. So it was, you know, people think of Buddhism like, oh, go in a cave in the hills and meditate for 20 years. It's like, yeah, people do do that. But the real purpose is to understand clearly so you can enact change in whatever ways you need to do. And in his case, you know, he was a writer, he was a speaker, he was training other people to, you know, to see things. Hilarious. So this whole argument of like, oh, if you were really, really impacted by things, you would think differently. No, I don't, I don't, I don't buy into that as a, as a kind of wholesale philosophy. Yes. Are there people who are privileged and ignorant? Yes, of course. But, you know, that's not a default blanket statement that applies really for anything about.

Joanne Lockwood: Anyone. Is the world getting more polarised or are we just seeing it through our current lens? You know, social media, the mainstream media pushing people against each other, driving revenue from clicks and anger. And is it, are we getting worse? Is this ever going to end or is it just a symptom of the.

Jared Karol: Times? It's hard to, I mean, I'm not a, I'm not a scholar of like, you know, journalistic and social media and media trends, but I, whenever I see someone or a report or an article or something, kind of say, like, you know, times are worse now than they ever have been. I always wonder, like, is that true? Like, I mean, I don't know. So I don't know the answer to that, Joanne, you know, comparatively now versus then or, you know, another time. But I will say that it's the way we interact with each other, whether it's online, like on, I mean, I'm only on LinkedIn and even decreasingly these days as well, does contribute to everything we've been talking about and not just this story that I've shared, you know, with this woman. That's a, that's an extreme example. But even just the little ways that we interact with each other or don't. The ways. And I'm sure if you asked a hundred people to tell you about the LinkedIn algorithm, you'd get a hundred different, you know, examples of why it's messed up and how we can't figure it out. So I'm, I'm the hunter. I don't know how it works, but I do believe it does reward provocative. And I, because I used to be a much, a much more frequent writer on LinkedIn five, four, five, six years ago, and I noticed like, okay, I'm going to write a post. If I write it this way, it's going to go. If I write it this way, it's likely to get a lot of. And for the most part, I, I was right. And so, you know, did I contribute to what we're seeing? Yeah, probably. And that's part of the healing process is I'm not Gonna. I'm not gonna do that. Anymore. Which. Which

Joanne Lockwood: is more successful? A million views, hundreds of reactions and comments, or 5 views and someone takes action to the positive. Someone taking action is the objective. If it's just people clicking and getting torn up, that's not. That's not. That's not change. That's just outrage. Isn't. Is.

Jared Karol: It's What's. There's a phrase. Is it like. There's like outrage bait or something like. That? Yeah, clickbait. Outrage bait. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Just.

Joanne Lockwood: So you're just fueling it. Fueling the trolls, aren't you? You're not careful. Yeah. Well.

Jared Karol: And, you know, at the heart of all this, Joanne, is. Which is. I don't know. I don't know if it's really an elephant or not, but it's capitalism. Like, we all have to make money and LinkedIn is a social, you know, professional networking platform. And, you know, you gotta try and in whatever you're, Whether it's direct, through messages or writing posts, you're trying to sell, you know, who you are, your positioning, your branding, Maybe you're trying to sell a specific service or a, you know, product, like. And that's what capitalism breeds. It breeds, you know, competition, and it breeds, you know, us versus them. And this kind of, you know, scarcity mindset, which we're all. I know I've been guilty of it often and I, you know, I'm trying. I try to be aware of it and kind of cultivate the opposite when, just like anyone else, I need to make money as. Well.

Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, don't we all. So if you're writing a. If you. If you're writing a book called Equanimity for Dummies, what would be your top two or three things to take away from. This? I would say start

Jared Karol: and practise a meditation. A.

Joanne Lockwood: Meditation. Practise. Cultivate inner peace and

Jared Karol: clarity proactively. It's not like, oh, my gosh, something bad happened. Let me go meditate, okay? I feel better. No, that's not what it's about. We meditate so we can cultivate the behaviours and the mindsets that we want to have. When the hard stuff happens, that's the inner work again, it doesn't have to be meditation. That's what I've chosen, the Buddhist kind of meditation, mindfulness path. There are other ways that work for people, but that's what I would say is if you have that practise and you've kind of been dabbling in dabbling in it, like concretize it, do it because it's gonna save you and it's gonna save us, I would say, which, that will help you do these other things, which is centre on two things that are going to promote your own healing. Connection, true connection, whether it's with people you know well and love and maybe live with or any interaction online, at the grocery store, in the community, in traffic centre, connection, however small, and resist the urge to other, to gossip, to dismiss, to ridicule, to mock. You can disagree, but really be so the other, the first agreement of the four agreements is be impeccable with your word. And the other thing related to the healing is the letting go. How can we be have firm beliefs and conviction in those beliefs, but remove the charge. So that's a skill that people can and do cultivate where you can say whether you're a speaker, you're a coach, you're a podcast host, you're whatever your role is, you're right, you're a thought Leader on LinkedIn. You can write with conviction and clarity and purpose without being an asshole. Because yeah, there are going to be people who will already agree with you. They're like, yeah, but then what about the people who see you as an asshole and maybe would have agreed or been interested in what you're saying if you weren't an asshole? So it's really individual choice. So those are my. Insights.

Joanne Lockwood: Everything you're saying sounds to me this is what emotional intelligence is built on. The self awareness, self management, it's all about that. So obviously emotional intelligence is built on Buddhist ideals and.

Jared Karol: Equanimity. Well, it's emotional regulation. And so, you know, a common argument I've, you know, had or seen or been part of or witnessed is, you know, don't tell me, you know, who you white guy to tell me how to react, to feel like I'm not telling you how to. I'm, I'm, I'm inviting you to see things differently and to see the consequences of your behaviour. Oh, well, is that more important than, you know, black people getting killed by the police? No, not at all. But what you're doing isn't stopping black people getting killed by the police or pick your unjust cause that we all know is happening and needs to end. So it really. Is. It. Is. As you said, it's eq, it's, it's self awareness, it's emotional regulation. I guess there's a term kind of in, in the. What's it? Emotional sobriety, which I've come to kind Of. I like that. I like that. Term.

Joanne Lockwood: So there's been a. An amazing conversation. We've been yakking away for an hour and a half bit in the green room and we've. We're probably overrun on this episode. I could keep chat to you all day. In fact, I'm tempted to jump on a plane, come to Oakland, we'll have a. Go to that fish restaurant. Go to that fish restaurant I mentioned earlier that I went to with HR West. But, yeah, and I'd love to hire another car and go up to the Redlands and all the redwood forests and things like that and just, just chill out for a. Day. So, yeah, you're welcome. Anytime. Superb. So how can people get hold of you? You mentioned you have a huge amount of social media, so that. What's the best way of tracking you. Down? Yeah,

Jared Karol: so I'm on LinkedIn, just Jared Karol, J A R E D K A R O L. You can search for me on LinkedIn. Also the co founder with my partner, Cornell. Three Arrows Coaching LLC. There's another one or two Three Arrows Coaching on LinkedIn. So if you are looking for that on LinkedIn, type in the LLC. You'll find us our programme. Our coaching programme is called the three arrows of life. So just three arrowsoflife.com and you'll get to learn a little bit more about that programme and how to. How to be part of it, if this is something that you're interested in. Also, we didn't talk about this. I think we mentioned it before we started recording. But I'm also a vinyl dj, so if you are in the Bay Area and you're looking for, you know, private parties or, you know, corporate events, you can go to djmaju.com m a j u d j m a j u.com and learn about the vinyl DJing offerings there. I think that's. It.

Joanne Lockwood: Brilliant. Brilliant. So if you do connect with Jared and he does send you a outreach on LinkedIn, rather than just shoot him down, invite him on your own podcast and have a good chat because it's been absolutely fascinating and I've found a friend from four and a half thousand, 5,000 miles away and it's been fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so. Much. The feeling is. Richel, thank you. Glad to be. Here. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to inclusion bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that. Matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to. Share? I'm all ears. Reach out out to jo.lockwood@serchangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.