--- title: "From Textbook To Triumph" episode: 186 date: 2025-12-08 guest: "Scott Grates" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/186-from-textbook-to-triumph audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-186/audio.mp3 --- # From Textbook To Triumph Joanne Lockwood is joined by entrepreneur and author Scott Grates for a wide-ranging conversation about how people build trust, opportunity, and impact through relationships. Scott shares how he built his career and businesses through relationship marketing, focusing on long-term reciprocity rather than transactional networking. Together, they unpack what personal branding looks like in a digital world, how to show up with authenticity, and why empathy and human connection remain central even as AI tools accelerate content creation and business efficiency. The conversation also turns to confidence, resilience, and learning through failure—especially for younger people navigating social media comparison, imposter feelings, and shifting expectations. Scott explains the approaches he uses with students to build self-belief and critical thinking, while Joanne reflects on how experience and setbacks shape a steadier, more resilient mindset over time. Listeners come away with practical perspectives on leveraging AI responsibly, strengthening real-world communication and community ties, and building a personal brand rooted in values and trust. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Inclusion Bites: Sparking Change - 04:09 — City Mindsets and Seasonal Escapes - 08:58 — Building Relationships for Business Growth - 10:13 — Contrarian Vision and Relationships - 14:08 — Creating a Collaborative Business Network - 19:11 — Human Connection in Business - 22:55 — It's Who Knows You - 25:09 — Opportunities in the Digital Age - 28:07 — Leveraging Comments for Visibility - 33:04 — AI Replacing Creative Teams - 36:24 — Teaching Beyond the Textbook - 38:07 — Becoming Who You Want to Be - 40:29 — Resilience Through Life's Lessons - 46:23 — The Comparison Trap and Social Media - 48:23 — Tech, Teens, and Confidence Crisis - 51:28 — Teamwork Builds Entrepreneurial Skills - 55:15 — Evaluating Friendships and Social Connections - 59:22 — Inclusion Bites: Join Us ## Key takeaways - Practical frameworks for relationship marketing that prioritise genuine connection over transactional networking. - The concept of focusing on 'the geese, not just the golden eggs' to build long-term, reciprocal business success. - Navigating AI and digital tools as enablers of efficiency without losing sight of human empathy and authentic brand identity. - Strategies for building and maintaining a strong personal brand in a crowded, fast-paced digital environment. - The significance of failure, resilience, and critical thinking in developing confidence—especially for young people and future leaders. - Approaches to overcoming imposter syndrome and cultivating self-belief, regardless of career stage or life changes. - The importance of fostering real, symbiotic relationships rather than accumulating superficial or transactional connections. ## FAQs ### What is the central theme of this episode? This episode explores the journey from traditional approaches to learning and business towards authentic, real-life success through relationships, resilience, and personal brand development. Scott Grates shares insights on relationship marketing, critical thinking, and empowering young people and professionals to triumph beyond textbook definitions of success. --- ### Who is the guest and what is his expertise? Scott Grates is a visionary entrepreneur and best-selling author specialising in relationship marketing for business growth and student empowerment. His superpower, as described on the show, is transforming relationships into reciprocal success. He brings real-world experience in business, communication, and personal development. --- ### What is 'relationship marketing' and why is it important? Relationship marketing, as discussed by Scott Grates, focuses on building genuine, trusting relationships with individuals and communities—rather than traditional, transactional marketing tactics. The premise is that investing in quality relationships creates ongoing value, trust, and mutual referrals, which are more sustainable and impactful, particularly in today's digitally dominated landscape. --- ### How does relationship marketing differ from traditional networking organisations like BNI? Whilst organisations like BNI operate on structured referral systems and reciprocal expectations, Scott Grates advocates for an organic, more altruistic approach—finding like-minded individuals with a ‘go-giver’ mindset, nurturing authentic connections without rigid rules or expectations, and adding value without immediate reward. It's about long-term community building, not just short-term sales. --- ### How is AI influencing business and relationship-building today? The episode acknowledges AI's growing efficiency and role in content creation, data analysis, and process automation. Both Scott Grates and Joanne Lockwood utilise AI to craft communications, personal branding, and even adapt training materials swiftly. However, the consensus is clear: whilst AI is a powerful tool, "eyeball to eyeball" human interaction, empathy, and trust cannot be replaced. --- ### What is the 'goose and golden egg' metaphor mentioned by Scott Grates? This metaphor illustrates his philosophy: instead of expending energy chasing after every possible customer (the golden eggs), invest in nurturing relationships with those who can repeatedly provide referrals or connections (the geese). It’s about valuing the source—which, in business, is people and partnerships—over isolated transactions. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo,lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 186 with the title From Textbook to Triumph and I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Scott Grates. Scott is a visionary entrepreneur and best selling author who harnesses relationship marketing to accelerate business growth whilst empowering students for real world success. When I asked Scott to describe his superpower, he said that it is transforming relationships into reciprocal success. Hello, Scott, welcome to the show. Thank Scott Grates: you, Joanne. I'm so excited to, to be here and have this conversation wherever it goes. Yeah, no, it's Joanne Lockwood: phenomenal. I'm honoured. And you're joining us from over the other side of the Atlantic from me, so somewhere. Yeah, North America. Scott Grates: So I am in central New York and we were chatting a little bit before we hit record here, you know, New York, everyone immediately thanks. New York City, Times Square, Statue of Liberty, Empire State Building. That's about three hours south of where I am. I'm actually a little bit closer to Canada, Montreal, Canada, than I am New York City, but right smack dab in the middle of the state, about an hour west of the state capital of Albany. Wow, Joanne Lockwood: I've never been that far north. I've been to New York City. New York, New York, yeah, the double barreled name. Yeah, I worked over there in the 90s, I think it was mid-90s I was there and yeah, I guess it's changed a bit. But yeah, I remember it being near Thanksgiving and then you had all the steam rising up from the under road, pipe work and stuff. Scott Grates: You know, people, a lot of people love the city. I'm a more of a country lover myself. You know, we're in the mountains and surrounded by beautiful lakes and in the fall it's just gorgeous when the foliage changes and all the different colours and you know the air just smells crisp and clean. Very different than the city. But we do like to sneak down there once in a while and catch a show or a ball game. The food is amazing and, but just a little, a little too busy. The older I get the, the, the more space I enjoy. Yeah, no, I Joanne Lockwood: relate to that. I can relate to that. I, when I was working over there I, I spent two or three weeks in New York City, did a bit in Miami and then I, I flew across to the west coast and did a bit around la, San Diego, Beverly Hills area. And there's a real distinction between the New York City or very on top of yourself. Everything's fast paced. You get out of LA and everything's far apart. Place of life is different and it's incredible. I guess you get the difference between where you are upstate in that as you say in the mountains and the scenery. It is interesting because America Scott Grates: is you know, probably a dozen good sized cities and then all the rest is just small towns like I live in and there's so many similarities but then they are very different geographically where when you look at Boston, New York, Philly, the Northeast in particular, there's just this grinded out, fast paced go, go, go mentality and then you get down into where you're talking about Miami and then out west into you know, la, San Diego and it's just more of a laid back chill. You know, one is live to work, one is work to live. I prefer the latter but we've got three teenagers and I'm not wishing years away but when the youngest is, is out of the house we will. They call it Snowbir. We fly south for the winter. Winters don't do it for me. So we'll be down in Florida from, from probably Christmas until May and then come back to New York and enjoy the summers and fall foliage here and then you know, take off again. My memory of Florida is always Joanne Lockwood: the humidity and the, the thunderstorms and the flash rain that pulls down. You get that? Yeah, every, every area you got to get, you know, Scott Grates: the good with the bad. But they, you know, people don't realise Florida experiences winter as well. We were down there this January and it was in the high 40s, you know, so pretty cool by Florida. The winter months aren't as bad. The humidity certainly is very real. Joanne Lockwood: Memorial Day I had a guest on here I think back in January this year and she was from Atlanta and she was saying it's the coldest Atlanta she's known in Many, many years. So you've had a real mix of weather this year it was, it was. A really, really cold winter, I Scott Grates: guess, you know, north to south here in America, but the year before that was very mild, so who knows? I don't know. I don't get into climate change and, you know, just because I'm not that I don't believe in it or, you know, I just, I'm not smart enough to understand how all that works. So I'm trusting people who can figure this stuff out. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, there's the old expression, stay in your own lane. But, you know, I appreciate sometimes you want to step out and not. And not be blinkered, but sometimes you think, hang on a minute, yeah, I haven't got an answer for everything, even though I want to. But yeah, sometimes it's best to listen. Scott Grates: That comes with age, Joanne. You know, for years I wanted to have an answer for everything and I felt lesser if I didn't. And now I'm comfortable with the. I don't know. That's a, It's a great question, it's a great point. I don't know and I do. I find myself the older I get, the more comfortable I am knowing what I know and staying in my lane, like you said. So when I introduced you, I described you as Joanne Lockwood: a visionary entrepreneur, which is a big, weighty title to sort of be labelled with, isn't it? Sort of. And a bestselling author, which is also another thing to live up to. So you talk about relationship building and you work with organisations, you work with people to try and empower them to have better success in the world through relationship marketing. Tell me a bit more about how you got into that and what that means. Yeah, great Scott Grates: question. Out of necessity is the quick answer. When I started my first business and it was an insurance agency, I had no business experience. We had two babies and diapers. We were coming off the 2008 financial meltdown where I had lost my job with HSBC, London based company. They got rid of six and a half thousand jobs on a Monday morning. I was one of them. And, you know, again, with age comes the understanding that when a window closes, a door opens and you often don't see it or understand it at the time, but everything is happening for us. That's where, you know, faith, and it doesn't have to be religious faith, just the faith that things will work out, belief in the unseen and, you know, so when I opened the, the first agency, I couldn't advertise and market in traditional ways. Which are very expensive. And, and so I found a niche in, in relationship building, relationship marketing, really getting grassroots and diving into five different areas which, which we can talk about obviously, but you know, small businesses being the first one. And, and really this whole fable of the goose and the golden egg, you know, became very clear to me and that if the golden egg is, is a prospect, a potential customer, I can spend tonnes of money that I didn't have or you know, run up debt and, and try to get all the golden eggs I can in traditional competitive ways like everyone else was doing. Or I can go deep with the geese who lay the golden eggs each day. And when they do, if I have the relationship with the geese, then they're going to send the golden eggs my way. And, and what I found is that the, the geese are doing the hard work. They're, they're building the relationships, they're building the trust with their customers. And so I said, who are the people that are already doing business with the people I want to do business with that already have those relationships and I can just pour value into them without asking for anything in return and then nurture those relationships over time so that when they have an insurance need or their customer has an insurance need, they go, hey, you should go talk to Scott. And it's a long term approach and this is why people get frustrated with it, right? But, but ultimately I was able to start with, with fellow small business owners here in my community. Then I got into the schools, I got active with service organisations, I started focusing on my, my customers, right, my call, my star customers to try to clone those people, right, that I want to do business with and then just very active on social media, aware of my personal brand. And I never wanted to be known as an insurance agent. I don't know if anyone does. You know, I wanted to be known as, as a husband, as a father, as a community leader, a thought leader, someone who has the servant heart that pours back into the place that we call home and we love. And oh, by the way, if you need help with insurance, I can do that too. And so really that's, that's the longer version of out of necessity. But you know, I just didn't have money. And you talk about being a visionary, which I'm sure someone wrote that for me, but, but the truth is I'm a, I'm a contrarian. You know, I, I, I have a knack of looking at things and saying, hey, if everyone's thinking this is the way to go, I want to Peek the other way, you know, and see what's happening over there or can we make something happen in a different direction so that I stand out because again, I'm in a very competitive, commoditized. Well, I guess every industry is competitive and commoditized now, right? With, with AI and everything emerging, we've really levelled the playing field in a lot of ways. So I'm always looking for, for new approaches and this relationship piece, what I really love about it a, I just love people and I enjoy building relationships with the right people. And not all people are good people. So let's be clear about that. And not I don't want, I don't want to work with all people, but when I do find those people. But the other piece of that is in this digitally dominated world, what was once old is new again. And the power of eyeball to eyeball and really loving on people and caring about them like that, AI can't replace that. And you know, however advanced we get digitally, we still want to be seen and heard and loved and know that we matter. And so really that's my focus and what I teach my teams is to just love on people. The right people expect nothing in return. And what happens is when you do that, suddenly people want to reciprocate. They want to work with you and do business with you and refer others to you. And that's been our model for going on 20 years now. Picking out some of the nuggets in there, the golden egg and the Joanne Lockwood: goose. You're not focusing on the egg, you're focusing on the geese. I love that idea. And I'm a great believer in relationship marketing. I'm a great believer in building relationships. Pay it forward. My model is more altruistic than paying it forward. I don't expect to ever see the return. You just give like, like you don't expect to see a great method. That way you become very authentic and people can believe and trust in you that you're not doing it for a reward, you're doing it because you're a great person. I think that that approach really resonates for me. But you were also saying, you know, this is 2008 financial crisis. I was trying to customer mind back to what I was doing. So I had my own IT company back then. And so we were selling services and we were dealing with businesses suddenly closing up shop or constricting. They weren't hiring anymore. Had a knock on through every sector of business back in, back in 2008. I remember it well. But I started my first IT company back in 1998 and that's pre iPhone, it was pre broadband, it was dial up at the time and you were writing letters to people, sending out brochures and printing stuff, weren't you? And stick it in the main, it'll be a franking machine. If it's frank it, post it here. After we get letters in the morning we'd open them or bin them. Way of marketing. And it's gone through a big cycle I think back in those days I was involved in organisations I think, I don't know if you have it in the States called BNI Business Networking International. So you are really taught me about the giver's game model and this getting in there and in the weeds and getting to know people's relationships. I think you're just saying to me is really resonating. But today in the digital world and you mentioned AI, it's sometimes hard to do that again, isn't it? Yeah, Scott Grates: you bring up so many good points there. The first one I want to talk about is people's BS metres are higher than ever nowadays. So if you're not doing it for the right reasons and with sincerity and being genuine, authentic people will pick up on that. So don't even bother doing it. That's the first piece. And then you know, the other thing is the bni. Yeah, we do have BNI here and so I often equate this to what I've done. My model and the communities I serve as. I've built my, my own BNI for lack of a better term without the BNI stuff, you know, and BNI is very. I scratch your back, you scratch mine, I give with the expectation that you're going to come with so many leads, you know, we don't do that. We just find like minded people who, who have this go giver mentality, servant heart and, and we, we're there for each other, you know, and we support one another and there's none of the red tape, you know, kind of rules and you know, whatnot. So, so yeah, I say all the time if you're not in BNI because it is an exclusive club, right, they only take one person from each industry and so if you're not in the club, make your own. And again that, that speaks to the contrarian in me where it's like, hey, you know, if everyone's doing this, well let me just go start my own thing and find people I, I want to do business with. So yeah, the, the AI, I'm Embracing it. So, full disclosure, I use AI every day and, and I think it's, it's a fantastic tool. And it's funny how you were talking about 2008 and I was picturing as you were talking like, almost like a black and white scene with, with these old printing presses and I'm thinking It was only 17 years ago. Right. But it feels like an eternity. And yeah, I was, I was with you. Right. We were still typing out things with certain pro is wild. But yeah, the AI, I'm embracing it. But, but as a tool, you know, and I, and I. It will replace certain things, it will replace certain people. But here's what I believe is that, you know, I'm not scared it's going to replace me. So long as I know how to utilise that tool to, to do what I need to do with my businesses and, and keep growing with it. The people who will be replaced are the ones who just refuse to adapt and, you know, they, they want to die on that hill of I'm going to do it this way and we're not going to, you know, and, and so, you know, I'm going. You have to go with it or get run over by it, because it's not stopping. Yeah. I mean, we've seen Blockbuster and video Joanne Lockwood: hire companies being taken out by streaming, being by Netflix. Traditional broadcast TV has been taken out, print media has been taken out by online stuff. It's just an evolution. It's just happening quicker than it's ever happened before in human history. If you look at the way Sam Altman is, releasing ChatGPT models every six months is a quantum leap forward. What was true one minute is now a potential in the next minute is now reality. And if I was a graphic designer, if I'm a coder, the latest canva update, you can, you can now generate entire websites, entire entire games just by ideating into a chat box. It's crazy. Scott Grates: It really is. And I, I think for most of the listeners, as wild as you think things are going to be in the next couple years in this space, I don't think you're even scratching the surface with your wildest thoughts. I think it's going to go way beyond that. I don't know. We can, we can riff for hours on this, but, but yeah, it's, I guess what happens. Yeah, don't fear it. You know, we initially fear change, but, you know, I do believe in the human spirit and I do believe in the human heart and, you know, again, it's a Tool. But ultimately we need each other. And I do believe that in the future, when robots are running restaurants, people will pay more to go to a restaurant and have a human wait staff. You know, I think that the humans will actually be at a premium because we'll want to get away from the machines. But again, that's rabbit hole stuff. But yeah, humans aren't going away. I get that. I mean, if I'm Joanne Lockwood: fencing, eating a McDonald's meal, for example, I've got the app on my phone. If I'm thinking I'll drop in on the way back and we can stop in there, I can order it on my phone before we set off for the first place, and I turn up, I put the little code in that I'm sat in front of and then they'll deliver it to my window, straight in my car and all I gotta do is eat it. And that, that helps. If I walk into, into the, into the restaurant, there's a big terminal. I can push the buttons and tap the screen and then pay for it and I can just wait for them to give it to me or I can go sit in my car. That kind of works for me that, that's the ultimate transactional fast food. Often, often I'll walk into McDonald's and go, I don't want to do all that. I just want to talk to you. I just want to explain what I want. I want you to give me a Big Mac, I want to give you large fries and I want a really nice vanilla shake. And I want to have that conversation. Sometimes it depends on where I am in my mind. If I don't want to talk to anybody, I've got a transactional way. If I want to have human contact, I can. And sometimes I'll sit in my car on my own, sometimes I want to sit in a restaurant and it's. I think we can consume in different ways now, can't we? I think, and choose it ourselves. Scott Grates: Yeah, I agree with that 100%. And, and that's, you know, really why I'm all in on, on the relationship piece, right to, to business. And I don't know. And everyone's different, every business is different, but I just enjoy the human side of what we do. And I'm in risk management and, and we talk about protecting assets and building assets and wealth and you know, I. These are very emotional, you know, conversations and behavioural, you know, habits are so important. And yeah, you can type into to chat and ask it for financial advice and you can give it all of Your numbers and tell it your hopes and dreams and goals and it will build probably a plan that's better than what I could do for my clients. But you know, when they're confused or scared or there was a market movement or they had an accident or they were diagnosed with an illness, or they lost someone they loved, you know, these, these real life moments happen, like we're still going to need each other and, and so, you know, I, I, that's why I just keep going back to it. It's a tool and it will help and it's made me, and I'm sure you as well, Joanne, 10x more efficient already, right? I mean, you took my bio and you know, plugged it in and chat tells you, you know, this great stuff about me, which you didn't have to research and think about on your own, but I do the same thing, you know, and I've written training manuals and courses that, you know, it took me like an hour, which would normally be weeks of work. So it's making us more efficient. But I think too much of anything is problematic, you know, and so it has to be part of the puzzle. I don't think we can be all. In right there, the word you Joanne Lockwood: mentioned in there, and I latched onto it and you used the word risk and I can't remember the exact quote, but something like trust is hard fought but lost in an instant and you can never regain it or something is kind of the. And I guess when you're talking about here in your financial investments, your advising clients, a lot of that comes from risk and trust. Do I trust Chat GPT with my home, my family, my car, my whole life? No. Do I trust you? Maybe not now, but I can ask you questions and we can build up a relationship. I can meet other people who trust you. ChatGPT. I could meet other people who don't trust it at all. Or, you know, the trust with ChatGPT is cautious trust, isn't it? It's an assistant. I don't empower it. So you're talking about relationship building and trust is the key in there, isn't it? Scott Grates: Yeah. And I'll give you a word that you used earlier, which is empathy. And this is so huge, right, because you know, AI can give us facts and stats and a plan and words, but I don't know how often it's going to say, I hear you, Joanne. I know the struggle you're going through. I feel the same way. I've been there. Right. I'm here to listen sometimes we don't even give advice, we just give an ear and we're there for people emotionally when they need us and we can guide them. You know, just that empathy piece is so important. And again, as the world goes towards mass emails and social and SEO and, you know, I, I just still believe that if you have a couple hundred really strong relationships with the right people now, every business is different, but in my business, a couple hundred solid relationships. So not just me, but my, my whole team, we can do everything we need to accomplish for our customers by just knowing a couple hundred of the right people and, you know, diving deep into those relationships. So, yeah, empathy is a word we focus on a lot. There's a phrase which I believe I coined, not Joanne Lockwood: anybody else in, but please tell me if you've heard it. Otherwise there's the old adage, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And my spin on that is no longer what you know or who you know. It's all about who knows you. So, and what I often say to people is, with the best and the best of intentions, I don't care who you are as long as you know who I am. And so that's about building this kind of first century personal brand, about creating that Persona that tells the story about your values, your, your hopes and fears and dreams that people can then buy into you. And I remember being always told at networking meeting, don't give your business card out, collect other people, that way you can email them, that way you've got control of the conversation. But I learned over many years that I would never call them, I would never phone them up, I would never do all this. So actually I want you to know who I am so that, that's more important to me. I leave a room with 50 people knowing me and then they will go, oh yeah, I remember Joanne, I remember Joanne. But I can never contact the thousands of people I come in Contact with on LinkedIn Everywhere else now the relationship there changed a bit. That's a great take, you know, so my book is called Scott Grates: Referrals Done Right and the old school networking is in my opinion the wrong way to do it. And that's what you're talking about with these forced social interactions and networking and the grabbing the cards and following up and making the calls. And I love your take on it, which is, you know, I want you to know me. And I tell people all the time that you aren't who you think you are in the business world. You are who your Google reviews say you are, because that's what other people are saying about you. And my, my kids, I, I just try to impress upon them so much. All kids that I talk to spent a lot of time with, with working with high school students is this brand awareness and, and what an amazing time for them to be alive and be able to build your personal brand. Because, you know, I mean, I'm staring down 50, but even in, during my years when, when you go back like you, you had to know certain people to get into certain universities or get certain jobs or get into certain rooms, get certain meetings. You know, you had to have a certain amount of money or social status or, you know, there was these family connections and social ties that were so important today. I'm not saying that's not important, but for the kids, the playing fields level now, you know, and it doesn't matter. You can be in your bedroom and creating amazing content and a personal brand and become a millionaire. You know, you have access to, to the Internet and know you have access to information. You know, holding a cell phone, a 16 year old today has access to more information than President Barack Obama did when he first took office. You know, 20 years, not even 20 years ago. And you know, Ted Talks and YouTube and you know, just people that some of the, the greatest thought leaders in the world, all their information's out there for free, you know, but kids like to still scroll TikTok and watch Cat videos and stuff and I'm like, all right, well that's all right once in a while. But you know, spend 20, 30 minutes a day, you know, digging into something that's of interest to you that, that you can leverage and, and use in the future. But yeah, I, I don't even remember what your initial question was there, but. Joanne Lockwood: It'S about the power of personal brand and. Oh, the personal brand. Yeah, Scott Grates: so, so yeah. And you know, and then there's a, a cautionary tale in there too, is that everything you do put out there can haunt you forever. You know, so, so choose wisely. You know, how you want people to see you, how you want to be known, because it can be very powerful in either direction. I don't know if this is your, your Joanne Lockwood: lane, but I'm going to ask this question anyway. One thing I've noticed about my own evolution, if you like on social media and I post stuff on LinkedIn, whatever it may be, is in the early days you kind of, you're a bit of a stalker. You have a look around, you don't even want to leave a Footprint in the snow. You don't want anyone to know you've been there. You won't, you won't like, you won't touch. You just here and have a look at someone's content and you get brave and think, oh, I like that, or I react to it, or I think, oh, that was insightful. I'll use a LinkedIn insightful. Then eventually you start bringing a little comment, then you may reshare it and time progress as you get, become more confident in who you are, then you start writing your own content. I think for I've taken this content and I think this on it and then eventually I would say we use the word visionary entrepreneur. You break into that sort of thought leader bracket where you're now originating. And then the magic happens when people start sharing your content that you've originated and they're liking and sharing, suddenly that snowball starts tumbling. Yeah, admittedly this is a space Scott Grates: I was pretty weak in LinkedIn specifically, um, and I hired a LinkedIn coach because I realised how weak I was. So I sought, sought out a professional. And one thing that my big takeaway from LinkedIn is when you can create content to support other people who already have the audience. Again, this kind of goes back to the goose and the golden egg. Right. Um, so, so if you have a hundred thousand followers and I'm one of them and I can create something insightful to support or add to your thought, now a hundred thousand people can potentially see my comment because I'm piggybacking off of your audience. And so I think a lot of times we think we have to create our own post. But you know, I might have 700 people that follow me. I would spend, you know, for the audience, I would spend more time trying to contribute to bigger thought leaders posts to be seen on LinkedIn and then just make sure that whatever the first few words of your, your title or who you are, make sure they're, they're powerful and will resonate. Let people know exactly who you are and what you do. So that if they read your, your comment, they see the first few words of your, your title, they go, ooh, maybe I should follow this person and they'll click on you and, and do the same. Joanne Lockwood: Great. And yeah, that's a great way of levelling up, isn't it? Or stepping up is to. Bit like one of those weeds that has a little seed, sticky seeds that get stuck onto your socks. You know, you're trying to stick onto somebody else and hopefully they're going to take you out and fertilise you somewhere else in the world. Yeah, well, you know, think about it when we talk about getting Scott Grates: into rooms, right, and the who, not how and who, you know, and it'd be very difficult for me to. And I'll just use like, Tim Ferriss, right? So it'd be very difficult for me to get a meeting with Tim Ferriss or share a conversation with him. But right now, you and I can go on to Tim Ferriss, LinkedIn, find something that's intriguing to us and come up with something insightful we can add to the conversation. And boom. And I'm in the same room, virtual, albeit as Tim Ferriss and his audience, you know, and so, yeah, that could be like a dandelion weed sticking on. A sock, but, yeah, no, it is. Yeah, I Joanne Lockwood: agree. Now, I say I'm a great fan of that sort of thing as well, but what I've started doing lately is identifying people's content that resonates either positive or negative with me and then doing my own opinion piece whilst quoting it. So it's still standalone content, but quoting. I was reading this on someone's post the other day, so it gives me another spin and take on their content. I tag them in on it and then they can choose to engage or not, but at least their followers are seeing mine as well. I've tried doing that a lot lately, which allows me to have a. Rather than just copy and paste what they've put, I want to really make sure that I'm adding, adding my view on it and as to why I agree or why I disagree or what they've missed. It's a good, good way of spinning on, isn't it? Million Scott Grates: Dollar Question. Do you use AI to help you with those often? Yeah, I've got, I've got a, I, I, I've written my own Joanne Lockwood: custom context. I've, I've, I've, I've worked on my tone of voice, my, my Persona, who I am, my brand values. I, I paste loads of stuff I've written into it and I, I'll, I'll take something and I'll say that this is my view on this and I often, sometimes dictate into chat GPT or just type it in. So this is what I'm thinking. This is where I want to go. I want you to go deep on this. I wanted to really critically analyse it. I want you to find everything that is, you know, positive and negative. I want you to. There's a couple of philosophical techniques. One is called The Moss and the Bailey, where you find a really easy statement and then you have something that you, you link to it as being indefensible. So, so I asked it to test it out using all these theory models, applied bias on it and all these things. So sometimes you get a really good opinion. I look at it and go, yeah, don't you get that? So I take everything it's given me and feed it back into the machine again and say, look, you've just given me all this. Give me something out of that. So sometimes I just massage it and keep kneading it and kneading it and kneading it with my own thoughts. And then sometimes something pops out and you go, that's it. I'll have the saying I used earlier about it's not what you know, it's who you know, actually, it's who knows you. I'll feed that in as a, as a hook into something, you know, one of my sayings, hopefully I coined and then use that as the hook for my perspective on a topic. So I'm still coming up with a metaphor or the analogy and then using it to steer the content, which is often means you do get unique content out of AI, give it the right prime. And I read it and think, yeah, I would have written that. Yeah, I would have written that. I look through it and go, yeah, that sounds like me. I show it to somebody else. Oh, that's, that's, that's insightful. That's, that's powerful. It's like, well, it is, yeah, it's. But I'm not, I'm not cheating because I'm not, I'm not handing over the keys to the AI engine I'm using as a. Because I, I used to hire a, I used to have a comms expert, a media person who every week we have a meeting, we'd have a one to one and she'd interview me on various topics and she would go away and write me an article which I'd then edit a bit and then tweak and then she'd finish it off and she'd send it off to all these magazines and publishers. That's all I'm doing. Instead of paying her a thousand bucks a month, I'm using AI to do the same process. I couldn't agree with you more. You know, this last Scott Grates: book I had a team of writers, you know, so, so they all had different roles, but there were four, four of them that we met weekly and they'd give some assignments and they'd you know, ghostwrite some stuff and we'd go back and forth. And then, you know, there was a team of editors, you know, and there was just all these people that helped bring this to market. And to Your point, for $20 a month, I can now replace them. And I've created what I call my Scott bot. Right. So, same thing. I've uploaded all my blogs and work and books and, you know, I was preparing for a career day at a local school recently and I wanted a theme and I wanted some personal quotes and anecdotes, just like you do. I just started talking to my own bot and it was giving me quotes from my own work that I had forgotten about. And in a matter of minutes, I had this perfectly outlined 20 minute presentation to go in and share with the kids. So I don't, you know, there's this talk, is it cheating that? It's not cheating. Right. It's doing the same thing that we've always done, just with a machine. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. One of the things I do is I do a lot of advice and guidance on transgender rights and things like that. And, you know, you've got stuff going on in the States, we've got stuff going on here in the uk and a lot of people want answers to some of these law changes, legislation changes. And I'm able to take all of the legislative guidance that's come out as PDFs from the courts, whatever it is, dump it into the model and say, look, this is what the law was, this is what the guidance is. This is the latest Supreme Court ruling. This is that, that and that and that and that. I want you to give me some clarity, give me a guidance note on that. It spits it out and I feed it back in again, say, look, I want you to test this out. People are going to criticise me for this advice. I want you to really make sure this is robust and evident everything you're saying and tell me this is safe. Then it goes through and goes, yeah, this is because it gives me a full analysis and says at the bottom it says, if you want to be doubly sure, just tweak this or put this little disclaimer in here. And then when I post it on LinkedIn, I got these people piling on, saying, you can't say that, you can't say that. I take their comments, feed it back into my model and say, they've said this nasty thing about me. What do you do? They said, no, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong, they're wrong. Or actually they've got a small point here. Tweak it and put this, and then adjust it. So I'm allowing other people to critique my work back in the morning, which. Is Scott Grates: kudos to you, you know, for being vulnerable and experimental, you know, with, with the work and, and taking feedback. Because I'm sure you do a lot of ignorance, you know, so that's a bit. How do you. Yeah, how do you, how do you, you know, extrapolate the, the positive stuff, you know, the feedback or potentially positive from just the pure ignorance and hate. But yeah, that's, that's amazing work. The technique works whatever field you're in. Joanne Lockwood: Hang on a minute. It's called peer review by scientists. That's what they do. They write a paper, they peer review it, and they all have it, they all try and pull it apart and then they build a better model as a result of the peer review. So that's all you're doing, just using AI to be your hive mind. You work with in high school, do you work with students or is it mainly business school? I work with all students. I love kids, right? So I wanted to Scott Grates: be a teacher, but I also wanted money. So there was a real odds how passionate am I about teaching? And so I found a way to, to do both, right? Where as a, an entrepreneur, I make a good living, but I'm also uniquely qualified to go into the classroom and help teach children things they can't find in the textbook. You know, and that's the whole think outside the textbook approach. I say often that schools are good at teaching kids what to think, but as you know, Joanne, in the real world, we need to know how to think. You know, critical thinking, discernment, teaching, self awareness and understanding that these negative thoughts, the self doubt, the inner critic, the imposter syndrome, even though they don't understand, that's what it's called. But all these thoughts and feelings, it's standard equipment in their brains. But they're thinking, they're not good enough, smart enough, strong enough, confident enough, worthy of certain things because they're having these feelings. But they don't understand that everyone else in the room is having the same feelings. Whether they, they admit it or not, they are. And so the kid's ability, you know, and again, going back to digital, I call it apps, aps, their ability to acknowledge it, that, hey, I hear this voice, I understand that it's not just me. This is standard stuff. Prove it wrong. Look for a moment in their past where they have done certain things and then the S is silence it. And I teach kids this three second pause. I don't, you know, it's not unique to me, but that's the whole, I got this right, so acknowledge it, prove it wrong, silence it. And so, you know, really they say you're, you're best qualified to help the person you once were. And when I look back and did some deep work into my childhood, I realised I had real confidence issues. I had some father issues. Not that he was a bad dad at all, but he was overbearing, demanding and I could never live up to his expectations. And it filled me with self doubt that I was never good enough. And so I look at adults in the corporate world that I work with now and we do trainings for them around sales specifically, but they're still dealing with the things that they haven't worked out from their childhood. A lot of them, and really adults become deteriorated teenagers as we go. In many ways, not all I'm painting with a wide brush here, but you know, my, my focus with the kids is, is really no matter what you want to do, you know, and first of all, let's not talk about what you want to do, let's talk about who you want to be, right? Because that's far more important than anything you're going to do. Just understand that you're always going to have critics, you're always going to have self doubt, you're going to think you don't belong, you're not worthy. And all of that's bs, right? Because you are worthy and deserving of everything you're willing to work for and everything that's important to you. And really just diving into that critical thinking, that discernment, that just continuous improvement. And really the confidence comes from not the textbook or things you, you. I can't teach you how to be confident. Tony Robbins can't teach you how to be confident. Right? Confidence is earned, not learned. And so you've got to be willing to take a shot, fall on your face, get back up and take another shot. And, and failure is just feedback. And I think, you know, we in schools, we, we think failure and we think oh my gosh, that's. But, but you know, Joanne, every, every successful person you've ever talked to on the show is, is their past is loaded with failures, right? And that's how we build strength and adversity and courage and confidence. And so those types of messages is really what I want to get out to the next generation, to empower them to, to do whatever it is that they want to do as long as they're being the person true to themselves that they want to be looking. Now Joanne Lockwood: I was thinking, wow, that's, that's, that's so, so true. The. I think someone asked me a little while ago, how am I able to stay so calm, so resilient? We used to call it bounce back ability, I think in the 90s. How do I handle that? I said, well, I've messed up a lot in my life and you don't get 60 years old without messing a lot up. I think what it is, you just learn over time that it's just brush it off, you're going to get up, the earth's going to rotate, the sun's going to come up and everything's going to be okay tomorrow. And you learn after a while that you've messed up so many times, you've learned so many lessons that you're more confident to approach today in a different light. And I think that's, maybe that's the problem. What we, we trying to fast track our younger generation to have that resilience without having been through the learning curve, if you like. We have to let them fail a bit and we're not creating environments where they can. Yeah, you got to earn your Scott Grates: scars, you know. And you have. I have. But, but that's not a quick and easy. There's, you know, metaphor. But there's no elevator to the top. You gotta take the stairs, right? And wherever you want to go, it's one step at a time. And sometimes you don't want to take that next step or it's scary or hard or you know, just, you're fearful, but you just gotta keep climbing. And you know, again, it's kind of a cliche, corny metaphor, but it's true with the fast track. And I fear for our kids. I call them the microwave society now because they want everything in an instant. But all good things take time. And if I could leave this generation, my kids generation with, with, you know, some parting words, it's don't be in such a rush. You know, all good things take time. Embrace failure, right? Learn from it, take some chances. Joanne Lockwood: You. Know, and it's okay not, not to know Scott Grates: everything right now. So, so yeah, I do fear that we're, we're pushing them faster and again the technology plays into this. You know, then they should be pushed. You know, I, as hard as it is as a parent of three, I want my kids to experience pain and suffering and failure. And I know that sounds cold and it's so hard for us to just take a step back and let them mess something up. But if they don't, how do they ever learn? You know, and, and I think as parents, you know, we. We talk about this trophy generation where every kid gets a trophy and that's not the way it should be. And it's like, well, who's buying the trophies? Because the kids aren't, right? We're the ones doing this to them. So if it's. If it's, you know, that important to you, then stop buying the trophies, but, you know, and let them feel a little bit of pain. But I don't know, it's ultimately, I. I guess empower is the word that comes back. Empower them to, to make decisions, trust them, and, and then care for them when they. They mess something up and, and help them, you know, work through that, because that's, that's the process of growth, development, and confidence. Joanne Lockwood: Article somewhere, I can't remember where I saw it or who to quote and attribute it to, was that if you're looking to breed entrepreneurs or people with entrepreneurial spirit, you do not hire grade 8 students. Grade A students sail through life expecting to win everything. Whereas what you're looking at really is the grit and fighters at the bottom who are getting Cs, Ds, and Es, who are being stayed in after school or being told off for doing stuff, because those are the ones that are learning grit and determination, and they're also figuring out how to win in a world that doesn't let them win. Whereas if people who are used to winning, used to getting A's, they don't know how to handle a B. They don't know what to do with it. I say all the time, you know, winning's easy, and that Scott Grates: sounds maybe cold or pompous, but you find out what you're made of in defeat. Anyone can win. And I'll go, don't get me wrong, there's wrong ways to win too. But you get the point. And I don't want to knock the kids that are doing great in school. That's awesome. But you're right. I mean, look at the entrepreneurs, specifically. Most of them are misfits and dropouts. And, you know, they. They had to kind of fight for everything and figure it out because nothing came easy to them. And when things come easy to you, unfortunately, my, My concerns for those students aren't, you know, up until 21, 22 years old, it's the entire life after that, when things stop, you know, no one, no one cares about your grades when you're 30, you know, and you're trying to raise a family and you have debt and you've got a career, you know, and you know, are you prepared for that? Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. Where's your coping strategy? Where's your, your adversity defence? And you know, how do you fight back against that? Yeah. Do you think, I mean, you mentioned the phrase imposter syndrome earlier and I'd never become consciously aware of that in me until about 10 years ago. For various reasons in my life, I changed everything in my life and I suppose because I'd had a very linear progression, I left school, I did some electronics, I got out of electronics into computing and I was self taught. So I was largely in control of my own destiny at a time where nobody else in the 80s was really an expert in IT and computing. So I was up there in the beginning of the curve where I was never an imposter, I was always at the front of the curve. But I think later in life I pivoted and changed from IT into HR and recruitment and other things. That's where my imposter syndrome came because I suddenly had to acquire a new skill where I found inadequate. If you're saying that younger people, younger generations are now seeing this, more hyper aware of it, is that very, that side effect of the hyper connected world or the pressure to always win or judging each other against each other all the time, what's created that pressure on them? Scott Grates: Yeah. So full disclosure, I'm not an expert, you know, in this, this is just my opinion, but from what I see, and I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said comparison is the thief of joy. I think social media in many ways is the worst thing that could have happened to kids. You know, they, they see everyone's highlight reel the best few minutes of the day, they see things with filters, they see AI generated things. Right. They're see, they're seeing things taking them as truth and they're wondering why they're not that good or cool or smart or athletic or pretty or you know, whatever it might be. And so I, I think when I, when I talk imposter syndrome with that group, you know, it's, it's really, to me the, the root cause is, is the comparison trap where they're constantly comparing themselves to a standard that isn't real. And I don't know if we're having enough conversations with kids about this, but we're seeing it and I don't know the stats but you know, but cyberbullying's awful. The suicide rates are horrific. Why, you know, why, why are we allowing this as a society? It's crazy, you know, but money, I guess, is the answer. People in power not wanting to make those decisions, you know, I, I think it's, it's just we need to have more healthy conversations around what's real, what's not. You know, I don't know if you saw the Netflix special the Social Dilemma. It's worth watching if you haven't. But a couple quotes that stood out from that one is if, if you're not paying for a product, you are the product. And I was like, ooh, that one was a gut punch, right? Where, you know, you and I are smart enough now to realise that everything we do becomes part of our algorithm and everything is strategic and intentional when it comes to trying to sell us stuff or change our moods and emotions. Well, 11, 12 year olds don't understand that. And you know, another thing that came out of that episode was they said, you know, about half a dozen white guys in Northern California are controlling the moods of millions of teenagers across the planet. And it's sick, but it's true. So I don't know, you know, when you. So imposter syndrome, maybe it's not the right phrase, but I, I think there's a confidence crisis in kids. A because they, they don't communicate. We, we spent all this time talking about relationships and relations and they're not just not comfortable and no fault of their own, they just haven't been exposed to the eyeball to eyeball. How do I converse with someone? How do I interact with Joanne? What do I ask? How do I start that conversation? You know, I do, I interview as an employer and it's sad just the lack of interpersonal soft skills that, you know, this generation, they lack. So, you know, that's another thing that I do is I offer for the students that I get in front of the opportunity to help them build their resume, do job shadowing. I've got a couple of interns starting over the summer, mock interviews where we, we go through and help them prepare for interviews. Just those important relationship building soft skills. But yeah, it's, the phones are, are good and bad, right? And so I talk about AI being a tool and social media I'm on all the time and we talk about LinkedIn and we leverage it for, for certain business initiatives. But the younger generation is, you know, they're using it in different ways and I think there's just too much comparison and it's killing their confidence. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, that's something I was going to dive in with you and talk about is the. How do you get the modern generation to actually start meeting face to face? You know, I appreciate I'm probably stereotyping here, but they do a lot of online gaming, do a lot of online chat, very rarely pick the phone up to talk anymore. They're messaging with text or voice notes. So it's very asynchronous. That's a different skill to having to actually engage in a conversation like we're doing now, when you're a younger generation now and you're probably not used to those sort of conversations, everything is online or offline or asynchronous. And tech space, how do you help people break out of that into building what I would call a stronger relationship? Great question, Scott Grates: and I don't know if I have a great answer, but the. You know, sometimes you just have to. You have to force people to do things they don't want to do, you know, and, you know, I'll be the first to admit I much prefer a text to a phone call. And so I have to force myself to do things that I don't want to do, which is sometimes pick up the phone and call someone or, you know, meet with someone. And so the other thing I say a lot is that I can tell you the stove is hot, but until you touch it and burn yourself for that split second, you're not going to believe me. And so, you know, really pushing kids out of their comfort zone. And this is what we do with. And again, this is. You talked about entrepreneurs not always being top performers of grades. Well, another key characteristic of entrepreneurs is a lot of them are former athletes, because athletes know how to work in a team. They know how to communicate, they know how to lose, deal with adversity. They're competitive, right? They want to win. And so, you know, how do we get kids working on teams and in groups, even if they're. If they're not into athletics? So I, I think at a younger age, it's important to, to get them working in groups and with each other. It's not comfortable, you know, but, you know, I think we just have to force people out of their comfort zone to realise that, hey, you know, I do like this person, or, you know, this is a relationship worth pursuing, which I don't know if you get that over Snapchat. No, you're Joanne Lockwood: building one to many, many, many relationships like that. You're not. We're not actually building the meaning of full, short relationships, small relationships. I mean, I think when I was growing up, you have what, six, five or six meaningful relationships in your life at any one time, excluding your parents or maybe your siblings. But yeah, and that's. I remember the time management book. It was six things plus two things that are family on top of it or something. That's as much as you can hold in your head at once. But now we're trying to hold too much, trying to keep too many things going, and we've become transactional, don't we? And I think the other thing I've found with relationships I've built over the years is they can be lopsided. One is where you're a giver, and one is where you're a taker. It's trying to find ones where you are symbiotic, where you give and take equally. If you don't phone for a day, they phone you or you phone them. But some relationships, you're always doing the phoning or the other person's always doing the phoning, and you think so it's trying to find those relationships where you are both bought into it. It's the hard bit, isn't it? 100. Yeah. And that's. That's probably why you only have a Scott Grates: handful of those really good relationships. And that's in many ways all you need. You know, it less is more when it comes to everything with productivity, efficiency, happiness. I think it's. Greg McEwen wrote the book Essentialism, and that was. Made a profound impact on me where I just started looking at all this stuff. And that could be materialistic stuff that could be baggage from my past, stuff that could be relationships that aren't worth the time and effort stuff. And, you know, for a garden to grow, you got to pull the weeds. And, you know, it's okay to. To only have a handful of really deep, rich, meaningful relationships, but where we get into trouble is, is we've got as a society, a loneliness crisis going on, too. There's. I don't know the number, but I be confident in saying it's probably staggering, almost unbelievable, the number of people who don't even have five or six good relationships or any, you know, and this is, I think, why social influencers are getting popularity that they. They are because I'm able to. To go on YouTube and watch a Mr. Beast or whoever it might be, and. And I can relate to that person. They become my friend. But it's not a real relationship. And so, you know, I think it's again, I don't know the answer. But. But somewhere along the line, this has to be part of the conversation with. With kids to let them know the importance of just genuine, real relationships. I think I did a while ago. Joanne Lockwood: I don't do any of anymore, but I used to do it. It was on Facebook. It used to pop up and give you a list of whose birthday it is today or tomorrow or yesterday or something like that. And I'd be going down the list thinking, happy birthday or not. I was, in my head, I was going, why didn't. Why don't I want to wish you a happy birthday? Because I don't really know you. It doesn't seem appropriate. You're just on my list because potentially you're a networking or someone who. Yeah, so I was almost like going down the list, evaluating, basically have that decision point, why don't I want to wish you happy birthday? And I think what that gave me the should we still be friends or shouldn't we? And then I also guess it's maturity. You go down that you see people's posts and think, I don't want to read this. I don't want to argue with you. I don't want to get into a conversation with you. I just don't want to read it. So do I unfollow you or do I remove you as a friend? And they're funny proposition thinking, well, I don't want to fall out with you. I don't want to not be a friend with you. I just don't want to listen to you. So we'll unfollow you. I guess that's just maturity. And you don't need the BS in your life anymore. But you're making those decisions. And I think if younger people, everybody could get more used to that idea. You don't have to listen to everybody. Don't knock yourself away in an echo chamber. You know, listen to what's going on, but also filter out what brings you joy. Scott Grates: Such a great take. And that's another thing I talk about a lot. I said if you. You might have a thousand friends on social media and 950 of them, if you ran into them at the store tonight, wouldn't even say hi to you. So are you really friends? You know, and, and you and I have had this right, where it's like we're connected on, on social and then we see each other in person. We don't even acknowledge each other's existence, like talking about a disconnect. But the opposite happens as well, doesn't it. I don't know if you found Joanne Lockwood: this but you're so connected with people on social. When you do meet them in real life, you like know everything about each other. It's like, oh, why you been doing this? How's your mom? And you went on holiday last week. It's a fantastic. Scott Grates: For sure. I mean you know there's in my space, you know, I do a lot of training, coaching, consulting and Covid. Right. Changed everything. And so just how you and I are talking right now over the computer. I had four plus years with people getting deep with them, getting to know them, seeing them. Right. Albeit over the. And then it's almost surreal when you finally meet in person. You know, it's almost like. I don't know how to explain it but. But yeah, we're like, we're. We're best friends. We've never met before. It's wild. But this is where world's going, I guess. Yeah. And Joanne Lockwood: I do that now. I do a lot of events and speaking and turning up at places and you've done so much liaison over zoom or teams in advance and you actually get to the event the live and suddenly these people have got legs. You walk, you can stand up. It's like, it's incredible. Scott, this would be an absolutely fascinating conversation. We could talk, we could carry on talking for hours, I'm sure. How can people get a hold of you? Scott Grates: Yeah. So appreciate that and appreciate the space and the conversation. It's just my name is my website so it's scottgrates.com and that links to the books and TED talks and different ways to connect and engage with me. Yeah. Run a couple different podcasts. They're linked up on there as well and really just have become a champion hyper locally focused on my community again, narrowing the focus. I talk a lot about when you, you know, when you have diluted focus, you get diluted results and this is something that I was struggling with because I was trying to be all things, all people all the time. And. And so now my focus is. Is really in about a 30 mile radius. There's enough people here and enough, you know, children here who, who I want to keep here and improve this place and, and you know, again, corny cliche but if we can leave it a little bit better than we found it and that's really what I'm on a mission to do is empower the next generation, educate them, help them be the best versions of themselves, whatever that looks like for them and just make the place that I've called home for almost 50 years. A little bit better when my work here is done. On that note, thank Joanne Lockwood: you. Amazing. Thank you, Joanne. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.