--- title: "Authenticity Over Assimilation" episode: 185 date: 2025-11-29 guest: "Jenny Chen" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/185-authenticity-over-assimilation audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-185/audio.mp3 --- # Authenticity Over Assimilation Joanne Lockwood is joined by DEI consultant and former finance leader Jenny Chen for a wide-ranging conversation about what it really takes to choose authenticity over assimilation They explore how political rhetoric and workplace norms can turn inclusion into a zero-sum fight, and why performative gestures do little to shift the lived reality of people facing racism and sexism. Jenny shares her personal journey as a Chinese Canadian immigrant and former political refugee, and how early pressures to fit in shaped her relationship to language, identity and belonging. Moving from story to strategy, Jenny and Joanne discuss why DEI cannot sit in an HR silo, and why employee resource groups can be misused as containment rather than change. They make the case for redesigning systems that were built for a different era, grounding the work in respect, compassion and courageous leadership that can hold difficult conversations and drive sustainable cultural change. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Voting Values Over Politics - 03:47 — Balancing Political Choices Carefully - 09:31 — Immigration, Values, and Perspective - 12:03 — From Rations to Religious Freedom - 15:52 — Integrating DEI into Business Strategy - 20:04 — Respecting Individuals Beyond Labels - 23:27 — Embracing Curiosity and Perspectives - 26:15 — Overcorrecting Global Imbalances - 29:10 — Gender Equity in Workforce Crisis - 34:09 — Rebuilding Together With Compassion - 38:14 — Historic Racism and Immigration Bans - 40:22 — Politicising Care and Values - 45:22 — Global Rise of Modern Fascism - 47:56 — Rethinking DEI for Real Change - 50:01 — Creating Equity in Division - 53:07 — Raising Awareness for Social Change - 56:45 — Inclusive Narratives, One Episode ## Key takeaways - The distinction between assimilation as a survival mechanism and the pursuit of authentic self-expression in professional and community settings. - How systemic barriers and historical narratives shape present-day inclusion and belonging, particularly for immigrants and marginalised groups. - The limitations of diversity councils and resource groups when true systemic change is left unaddressed. - Pitfalls of “zero sum” thinking in diversity efforts, and the dangers of polarisation that create adversarial environments instead of collaboration. - Transforming allyship into active “warriorship” to champion inclusion and justice, even when uncomfortable. - Why addressing inclusion must begin with universal values of respect, kindness, and human compassion, irrespective of social identity. - Practical strategies for integrating equity into organisational culture—beyond policy statements—and building workplaces where every individual can thrive. ## FAQs ### What does “authenticity over assimilation” mean in the context of inclusion? Authenticity over assimilation refers to the idea that true inclusion is achieved when individuals are encouraged to bring their whole selves to the workplace or community, rather than feeling pressured to adapt or conceal aspects of their identity to fit a dominant culture. Joanne Lockwood and her guest discussed how assimilation can be a survival mechanism, particularly for those from immigrant or marginalised backgrounds, but ultimately fails to foster genuine belonging or systemic change. ### How do politics and leadership impact inclusion and belonging? The episode highlights how political decisions and leadership values shape the cultural and social norms that affect generations. Shifting leadership rhetoric, especially those that ignore or minimise issues such as racism or gender inequality, perpetuate exclusion and discrimination. Voting with moral values, rather than self-interest, is advocated as vital for shaping an inclusive future. ### Why is performative inclusion problematic? Performative inclusion is when organisations make surface-level changes—such as creating diversity councils or employee resource groups—without addressing the structural inequities that created those needs in the first place. Joanne Lockwood and her guest argue that genuine inclusion requires systemic redesign, not merely symbolic gestures. ### What role do majority and minority groups play in advancing equity? Majority groups (such as men in male-dominated industries or white communities in Western society) must recognise that equity cannot be created by marginalised groups alone. Those holding privilege and power have the responsibility to step up, dismantle systems of oppression, and enable meaningful change. The podcast emphasises that racism, sexism, and similar issues are not problems for those who experience them, but problems propelled and perpetuated by those in power. ### How can organisations move beyond siloed diversity efforts? It is recommended that organisations integrate inclusive practices and values into their core operations and everyday business, rather than relegating diversity efforts to side projects or special occasions. Highlighting diverse talent and experiences should be routine, not reserved for “heritage months” or special events. ### Is striving for equity about overcompensating or overpowering majority groups? No. The episode cautions against rhetoric that suggests marginalised groups are “better” or should replace majority groups. True equity is about accessing the entire spectrum of talent, experiences, and perspectives—not creating new imbalances. Collaboration and mutual respect should underpin efforts to rebuild systems for everyone. ## Transcript Jenny Chen: Foreign. Joanne Lockwood: Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 183 with the total authenticity over assimilation. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Jenny Chen. Jenny is a former top ranking finance professional turned DEI consultant who is on a mission to dismantle performative inclusion and rebuild cultures where authenticity thrives. That's easy for you to say. And when I asked Jenny to describe her superpower, she said that is her relentless curiosity that drives transformative conversations and systemic change. Hello Jenny, welcome to the show. Jenny Chen: Thanks so much Jo for having me. Absolute pleasure. We've Joanne Lockwood: had a good natural ready in the green room and we were in danger of losing all the material on the cutting room floor so I had to quickly get on here and press record. So you were telling me you're from Canada, is that right? Yep, I'm from Ottawa, Canada. Jenny Chen: Welcome to we are the capital of our great nation and we actually just finished with our Canadian federal elections a couple weeks ago. And so we are all a little politics doubt right now. Mark Joanne Lockwood: Carney, I mean the UK know Mark Carney well as our former bank of England governor. I guess secretly we were all probably egging him on as a honorary Brit for a few years. You know what, it's so, it's so crazy right now because you Jenny Chen: know, as you know in the world there's so much political unrest, right. Even in countries. I have never, I'm, I'm almost 40 and Joe, I have never really paid attention to nor really cared about Canadian politics before because even our biggest problems used to be just cute, cute compared to other global issues happening. And this was the first time where our normally conservative family were really challenged with the decision on who we wanted representing us. And this time we actually voted with Our moral values versus the political party that it was. So, yes, we actually voted for Mark Carney. We egged him on too, because we, you know, Prime Minister is what, in the UK too? They last what, four, eight years maybe. But the values that we want shaping our country today lasts for generations. Right. So, yeah, interesting times. I've seen that in the UK as well, where there's Joanne Lockwood: this real blurred line between the traditional colours, the reds, the blues, the oranges, the greens, and people are starting to work out that you can't get everything from one person or you can't get everything from anybody. You got to try and pick and choose and sometimes you end up picking and choosing the least worst option. One party says has something you really, really strongly disagree with, but they do. Lots you do agree with. You've got to be careful here that you don't end up absorbing stuff that you don't want to get what you do want. And you've got to try and balance that in your own sort of psyche as to which is best for the long term future of the country. And sometimes we're allowing people in with really, really dangerous views because they do some things we like. Yeah. And we Jenny Chen: really have to step back, you know, and instead of thinking, what's in it for me? What is this party or what is this leader going to do for me personally, you know, and, and take a look at the bigger picture, the next generation, how this is going to impact. Right. Like we talked about in the Green Room, we talked about the climate in the US right now and how polarising it has become and how openly people with discriminatory behaviours. Right. Racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia. The current administration has just given them more confidence and a voice to share a lot of those hateful rhetorics that I was hoping were a thing of our past. But we know better, you and I, Joe, that they're still very, very much a pervasive issue broadly. And so, you know, those. It comes back to values, right, that are shaping the next generation, not just our generation. Yeah, so true, so true. And I think, if anything, I think what the Joanne Lockwood: US is doing is giving a world model that you can either embrace or you can reject. And I think if nothing else, that administration is. Everyone else is waking up and going, if we're not careful, we will slide into that ourselves. If we don't want that, now's our chance to do something about it rather than sliding in. And then once it's happened, it's too late. People are seeing that this can happen. This slide into authoritarianism is real. Jenny Chen: We experienced that this year up in the Canadian elections. Our Conservative Party leader here shared. They actually call him Maple Trump. And he shared a lot of the viewpoints in example, saying, you know, racism doesn't exist unless we talk about racism, so everybody just stop talking about racism and it'll go away. And it's like, that doesn't really make sense. Right. And as a. As a racialized woman, as a Chinese Canadian immigrant, I came here in 1989 as a political refugee during the Tiananmen Square massacre. I can tell you that it's very much deeply rooted in our systems. And so saying we shouldn't talk about it and it'll go away is exactly why systemic gender barriers, racial barriers, all kinds of discrimination continue to happen because we treat it like it doesn't exist. Look at indigenous peoples in our country right across the world. So, yeah, very, very interesting. It's funny that you were just introducing my episode as authenticity, and here we are spreading, spending this much time talking about politics, but I think it's more about. These are the topics that impact each and every single person right. In society. And why don't we talk about these things? So thanks for giving me a space and a platform to share some of my perspectives. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: And you just dropped the Tiananmen Square bombshell on me there. And I'm now thinking, wow, I can't let that pass without listening to some of your experience about that time in that. In the country. I saw it, I mean, 1989. I was how old? I was probably 1920 about then. Yeah, about that age. And I'm thinking I didn't really understand world politics. So we got the iconic image of the lone person confronting a tank and holding up the tanks in Tiananmen Square. That's kind of the iconic world image of Tiananmen Square. You were there living it as a. As a Chinese citizen. So what was going on in the country at that time, if you don't mind sharing. Yeah. So I was very young, Jenny Chen: I would say, so my experience is limited. I was in Changsha, Hunan. That's where I was born. It's actually Chairman Mao's hometown. So when you go back home, when I go back to visit, people see Chairman Mao as this icon, this hero. Right. And I recall, because I was in Canada at the time the Tiananmen Square massacre happened. My father was here on a scholarship pursuing his PhD in computer science. And my mom and I came. I was three years old at the time, Joe. We came to Visit him in April 1989 and June is when the Tiananmen Square massacre happened. And the previous Prime Minister Trudeau, the senior Prime Minister Trudeau, granted all Chinese nationals landed immigrant or permanent resident status right here in Canada for asylum. And we were not able to go back home. My mom and dad left everything they knew, everyone they knew behind because we had to take up residence in Canada. And I am, and again, I was so young. I really am grateful for the opportunity to be here. But sometimes it gives you that perspective that others might not have if you're born in a country, right. And we talk about we still have refugees seeking asylum all over the world because they're fleeing war, genocide, anything, Right. And it allows me, I think, to have a much more compassionate and also pragmatic lens when it comes to things like immigration. So back to politics. You know, we were saying that the values that shape our country. Well, if a leader or a party are against immigration or have a very negative rhetoric to immigration, I say that that deeply impacts the values that I have grown up with. As a first generation immigrant, I've got. No lived experience of Joanne Lockwood: that kind of scenario. Effectively went on holiday and never went home, really. Yeah. Never went home. Your home, your possessions, your television or your clothes or your toys as a young person, your friends, your school suddenly gone, you know, you now have a new life. And I would imagine your command of English was almost non existent at that age when you were just learning to speak anyway. But yeah, you had to learn a new language and you had to parents had to learn a new language and you had to become part of the Canadian culture. That's a huge, huge undertaking for any family. You know how I learned Jenny Chen: English, Joe? We shared a basement apartment in Kitchener Waterloo. It's a very university town here, very small town. I watched Disney movies, so Alice in Wonderland, Little Mermaid, Cinderella were my first three Disney movies. And I watched, you'll laugh at this, a lot of old 80s 90s action movies with Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger. And. Because in China they're so popular, right, that they have actually phonetically, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you can't translate that into Mandarin, but they phonetically have created names for all these movie stars. So that's all I knew when I was growing up. But yeah, it was wild. And realistically, a lot of the nuances from China we carried over with us, right? So in communist China, this is all I'm told from my parents, because I don't remember, obviously I was too young. But in communist China, right, Like we Lived on rations. So monthly the government would hand out rations of like this much cooking oil, this much rice. And I don't think anybody really understands during that time what that was like for a, for a growing family with two parents and a child. And then even my grandmother to the day she passed away in 20, 2017, she used to be a devout Buddhist and she prayed in her closet. And growing up watching that, I never understood that. Right. Because here there's all, there's freedom of religion. Nobody is hopefully ostracised in communities for their religion. But in China, if you have religion during that time, during the Cultural Revolution, you'd go to jail or worse. Right. And so for 30 years she lived in Canada. She prayed in her little tiny, not even a walk in closet, just a corner of her closet. So, yeah, these things really shaped your experiences growing up, right? Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow, that's. What a story. And yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. It's. Yeah, it's incredible to hear this truth. So you were in this finance environment, a male dominated industry, and you realised that it wasn't as easy for you as it was for others. And was that because of being a woman, Was that because being of Chinese descent or was it a combination of those factors? Yeah, so that's a Jenny Chen: great question. I found that I didn't know I was experiencing systemic barriers or that I was different until someone told me I was different. Right. Until someone told me I was going through or experiencing sexism or racism. Because by virtue of assimilating at a very young age, learning the language, trying to fit in, I think that as a survival mechanism, I never wanted to stand out. So spending also six years in Plano, Texas when my dad worked in telecommunications. Right. You just don't want to stand out. And so in my career, I was often the only woman or the only person of colour. And then realistically, when I started raising these experiences to our leaders, I feel like it wasn't being challenged enough. Right. Some of these systems weren't being challenged enough. So I felt compelled to just, hey, say hey, take a step back and look at this experience. And this is DEI as an element of a person, right? This is sexism. And the emotions that I felt being the recipient of these actions so that we could hopefully help dismantle them in our organisation. And then I was appointed a DEI leader for our global wealth management firm because like many women, and especially women of colour, that title is often given to us based on our lived experience and not because it's something I ever pursued Right. I was a salesperson through and through and I had no HR experience. But realistically, Joe, what I realised during my time leading DEI efforts for a few years that, you know, I'm a business strategist through and through, and I realised we could not, as a global organisation, accelerate our growth or drive innovation if we were stuck in the same way. Our, our organisation was built in a time where women didn't have the right to work, right. Weren't included in our workforce, didn't even have the right to vote. And we continued operating and leading inclusion and belonging in a separate silo in an HR initiative off the side of the desk of a lot of our leaders and decision makers. So my journey, as I said, into DEI wasn't in the classroom, but really began through these lived experiences. Again, I eventually was able to integrate our, what we really wanted as dei, as a value, into our core operations, into our business as usual. So instead of just featuring our black Asianized women wealth management professionals on International Women's Day, Black History Month, you know, Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage Month, integrating that and highlighting that in our regular programming, like it's not, it's not rocket science. Right. And so I took a step out of corporate finance and I actually started my own management consulting firm called Catalyst Consulting, where we help organisations do exactly this, right, integrating inclusive business practises, equitable business practises, inclusive leadership into their core operations because that's the only way that we will be able to drive long lasting sustainable change. Yeah, I, I, I think I realised that Joanne Lockwood: had an epiphany probably about 10 years ago when I did a transition that in my most of my life I'd never appreciated what it liked, what it was like to not have advantage, what it was like to not be considered, to be not the default, to be not in the majority. And it's only when you step over that line into an environment where you are suddenly the minority, the marginalised, the voiceless, the different, that you realise how cold, how bleak it can be over there. I would imagine when you're with your own community, within Chinese community, you're in the majority and it's very easy to feel that sense of belonging, but if you step out into that other zone, you're not. How can we get people who are in the majority and we can use the term privileged, if you like, to start being aware of that difference of experience. Yeah. So you raise an Jenny Chen: interesting point because this is something that I navigated, but also my kids are navigating right now where, yes, you would think that if I'm with a community of other Asianized people that I would have a stronger sense of belonging. But remember I came here when I was three years old, very quickly assimilated, as I mentioned, as a survival mechanism. So growing up, like we didn't even, we weren't even speaking English like Chinese at home. We weren't. We. I lost my language so long ago to learn English and then French because we're in Canada and those were the things we needed to do in order to, like, my parents wanted to fit in, to be successful here. And so growing up I wasn't Chinese enough or considered Chinese enough for the Chinese community. And then I very obviously stand out and don't really fit in in the non racialized communities. So I think especially with Asianized communities across the world, we are often put into this monolithic group. But Asia has what, like 52, 56 different countries, right? And then different nuances impact. Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Chinese cultures, Cambodian, Laos. Like there's so many. And if you peel all the layers back, Joe, of what you and I are talking about, it all comes down to just treating each and every single person you know, you meet, you see as the individuals that they are and respecting them as the individuals they are, right? Because at the end of the day, if you take a look at racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, all of these discriminatory phenomenons and behaviours, it's about not respecting, right? Being compassionate, being kind to these people. So oftentimes I tell organisations, before we put a diversity lens on anything, let's remove it and just ground ourselves in respect, kindness, human compassion and start there. Like that's a great starting point, right? But surely, surely everybody Joanne Lockwood: thinks they're kind, everyone thinks they're, they're a great person. Everyone thinks they're, they care, everyone thinks that they, they're, you know, everyone thinks they're right to be honest. And that's, that's half the battle. But nobody gets up in the morning thinking, I'm going to be a really nasty, horrible person today and cause pain to everybody else. They're just doing what they believe and their own echo chamber, their own culture, their own lived experience, that's, that's part of the challenge, is trying to encourage people to see a, a greater, a greater truth or a greater perspective without telling them they're wrong. That's the hard bit, isn't it? It is. And Jenny Chen: realistically and, and that's, that's human nature, right? Like that's part of our limbic brain. Like that part of our human makeup of needing to belong and needing to find people who are exactly like us, think like us, look like us, come from the same backgrounds as we do, socioeconomic, educational, professional, whatever. That is so deeply rooted in our human makeup that it's hard to really navigate around that. But I think that if you are inherently curious, if you come from a place of being open minded and seeing the world around you, that it isn't the same world as it was five years ago, ten years ago, right? Not even like two years ago. Look how much has changed in the world in the last two years. That if we do that and allow for different perspectives and different people in. I think that's a really hard but very necessary thing to do. Because the only reason why we were talking about this in the green room, even you and I have had different perspectives is by being open, being inherently curious and open to hearing different perspectives. I've learned so much from all people from all different walks of life. I've learned the most actually from my Caucasian male counterparts that have taught me everyone is just navigating systems that never included women, racialized communities, trans communities. And we're still navigating in those systems, we haven't evolved them. So actually I think it was Nelson Mandela who, you know, when, during apartheid said there's no victims and villains when it comes to racism in Africa. There is only victims on both sides navigating a broken system. And if we treat it that way, then people who think differently than us or are not one of us are not villains. Right? Just because they have a different perspective, they're not the bad guy, we're not listening to them to try and change their mind because we're right and they're wrong. We actually have to meet people where they and just recognise that we have all been navigating a system that did not include most of the world as it is today. And I think that would be a great starting point. I Joanne Lockwood: completely agree. I'm in the same echo chamber as you. I get it completely. I value that perspective on life. But where I always struggle is as a EDI professional myself, is trying to convert the unconvertible and who are entrenched in their zero sum view. You win, I lose. A lot of these DEI initiatives have got a bad name. Especially, you know, look at what's going on in the US and certain parts of the UK and other things where people are the incumbent privilege are starting to feel themselves being marginalised because they're not getting the advantages and they see DEI as taking away their maleness, their whiteness and their power base and they're having eroded and saying, hang on, I don't like this feeling of being uncomfortable and losing stuff. It's everybody else that's trying to take things from me. And that's a real human fear, isn't it? It's an innate limbic system you talked about. It's our fight, fight, freeze mechanism kicking in, going, I've got to hang on to what I've got. And it's really hard to get people to lower those defences and have truly honest, open conversation to address those fears, isn't it? Jenny Chen: I think we have, in good intention, tried to overcorrect for historical imbalances across the globe, right? Because again, you know, it's about time that we take a look around and see what's been missing, right, and what's holding people back. I think that in good intention we have created this environment of zero sum game, meaning exactly as you said, by bringing other people in, we are leaving or pushing other people out. That's what we. That's the environment we've created. But we really need to take a step back and recognise that the reason why these. And I, again, I. Every time I say dei I put it in air quotes because every time we created these initiatives, committees, task forces in organisations, in society and politics and government, it was to bring, level out the playing field and give equal opportunity what we didn't stress enough. And again, I'll go back to Nelson Mandela because I think he did an exceptional job in this. Like apartheid was such an incredibly horrific thing that happened in that country. It could have ended in bloodshed, but it didn't, right? Because he said, I am not for the oppression of black people, but I also am not here for the oppression of white people. He always had to be explicitly clear that he was not against either side. And we have not done that. And I'll give you a very specific example, Joe, because my background is in corporate finance, right? Investment advisors, wealth managers, portfolio managers, what have you. Key sales roles are still, across the board, 15% women, 15% women. Today that number has remained stagnant. We cannot, across the industry, globally, seem to fix this problem because we continue saying things like, women make better advisors than men. Women can emotionally connect with men better, right? And deal with women clients better. That's not true. Right? That's not true. That's. I don't know where that rhetoric came from, but all that told the 85% men in our industry was that women are better than this, than you, and we're coming from. For your jobs. That's not true. What we should have actually said was women make up 54% of the global population. They make up 50% now of our workforce, our labour force, of our talent. And so how can we as an industry be confident that we have the best talent out there to take care of clients and their wealth if we only have 15% of the 54% of the talent that's out there? Right? And so this, again, if you remove the diversity lens and just say this is a gender equity problem because we need more women, and now we've created this, this narrative that we women are taking opportunities away from men, we should actually say, for the continuity of this entire industry, we, we do not have enough wealth professionals to take care of the next generation when our current workforce retires. And that's the reality as it is today, Joe. Across finance, we actually don't have enough wealth professionals, we don't have enough doctors, engineers, right across sectors to sustain the continuity of a lot of these sectors. So, picking up Joanne Lockwood: on what you're saying there about some of the root cause of where we are today is that within our community groups, however we want to describe it, our affinity groups, we've almost overcompensated in order to give ourselves that sense of belonging and that sense of purpose, that sense of fighting back against oppression, we've overcomplicated, compensated by saying, we're better, we can take over this. And so we're trying to shoot too far, whereas what we should be trying to do is shoot for equity, not overpowering. Is that kind of what you're. The hint of what you're saying there? Yeah, a Jenny Chen: hundred percent. If you look at why diversity councils were created in the first place, right? Employee resource groups across organisations, across industries, they were created because racialized and also. Right, like different genders, different sexual orientations, everyone who didn't fit the legacy mould of our workforce. We're trying to create a space where our voices could be heard and hopefully, through sharing our experiences, impact the change that is so needed in these infrastructures. But again, what we created was through personalising the hurt of centuries, right, of different communities. We forgot that what we were trying to aim for was to inspire change. And you cannot inspire change through adversarial rhetorics, through divisiveness, through polarisation. That's what the world is like right now. What we really need to do is find a way to bridge a lot of these gaps by creating stronger partnerships Collaboration across the board, realising that, you know, if we don't, it's actually like, what. What's our world gonna look like in 5 years, 10 years? This next Generation, Right? Yeah. Yeah. How can we. Not sure these are the right words, but how Joanne Lockwood: can we undo the damage that we've created by overshooting and trying to get it back to this level playing field where we're all trying to find this common purpose where to create a world where we can all thrive. We're looking for a happy life. We're looking for somewhere where I can feel safe in my community, I can bring my family up, I have a roof over my head, I have food on the table. I only want what is fair and reasonable and sustainable. It's really hard to see a vision where we can find that nirvana. The Star Trek world, if you like, where everybody sort of gets along with each other except for the Klingons and the Ferengi. Jenny Chen: I love. I love that reference. I think that, you know, again, we just have to take a real step back and look at it from a different perspective. I could say that, you know, it really comes down to, as I mentioned before, if you strip away the diversity lens off of a lot of these issues that we're trying to solve for, right, it's really about having a systems failure, a true systems failure, and recognising that as the starting point, right? This isn't just a diversity issue. It's not about immigration, gender, race, sexual orientation. It's. It's really about, you know, the system that we are in right now, across the world, society. It's not broken. It was actually built this way, right? And so the only way forward is to rebuild it together, based on what the world looks like today. And what I've realised is, you know, if you strip away all of these issues, these. These. These very important issues, but we've named the problem as like a diversity problem. It comes down to a lack of respect, a lack of kindness, a lack of human compassion and understanding. And so whether we talk about inclusion in workspaces, healthcare, politics or in our communities, we don't need to ask how do we support this group or that group, Right? That's. Those are the solutions we've come up with. We really need to start with how do we treat people like human beings and everyone is different? Recognising that each and every single person is different. My experience as a woman of colour in finance will not be the same as another woman of colour, not even the same as another Chinese Canadian immigrant. Right. And that's the point. Systems aren't designed to account for complexity, but real leadership and real change in each and every single one of us requires that we do. And to your point, at the beginning of our conversation, you know, hearing from different perspectives, inviting in different perspectives, because when we challenge each other and when we offer feedback or invite these different viewpoints, it's not because we're trying to tear each other down. It's actually because we care. Some of the angriest people out there right now, some of the loudest voices, are angry because they actually care. Like, if you. If you take down all of the hateful rhetoric that's out there. Right. They care. And real leadership isn't about avoiding these uncomfortable discussions, but be willing to sit in it with curiosity and not come back. And I think that that's something that is truly, truly missing. Because empathy builds momentum, and then momentum changes systems. Right. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I think you picked up some points that I really resonate with. It's around these perspectives. It's around that understanding of where we're at, each of us, because we all have different starting points, different lived experience. And you start the conversation by talking about Canadian politics and world politics. But we don't all vote for the same party. We don't vote for the same people, do we? Yet when I look at it and think, well, it's really obvious, of course you should vote for this person, because that's everything I. But we don't. So it's really trying to understand why somebody has a different viewer perspective and an opinion on something. Yeah. We get caught up at the bigger picture of the outcome. We never sit there and actually drill down as to why someone. Why does someone feel disenfranchised? Why does someone feel hurt? Why does someone feel lonely? And as you said, as a racialized Chinese person, you have a different perspective on inclusion than somebody who is maybe Canadian French or Canadian Inuit or Indigenous. Right. I think. Jenny Chen: So back to the politics. I. This was the first time, as I said, in my life where I was deeply impacted by a lot of the things happening, the conversations happening, the rhetoric that was taking place here in Canada, because I always pictured us as a very inclusive society. And maybe that was me being naive or in my own little echo chamber. But I'm not surrounded by people who think that immigrants are the downfall of this country or that racism doesn't exist. Right. And one post actually made me emotional. I cried when I saw that in the US There was a congressman in West Virginia who proposed a ban on International Chinese students from entering the United States. Joe, this was like two months ago, right? Right before our, our Canadian federal election. And how many people agreed with that? I had just attended at our Senate two years ago, 2023, the centenary for the Chinese Exclusion Act. So 1923, Canada put forward a law that banned Chinese exclusive people from entering Canada, even though we built the railway, even though we were here working the gold mines. But because they were afraid that Chinese people were going to take over Canada right through immigration, we actually put a ban forward that prevented families from being together until the ban was lifted in 1947. That was the worst period and not found in any history books. I didn't learn that until I attended this event. And I grew up in Canada, not a single history book mentions that. And one thing I realised through this election, how many friends of mine voted with a party for a party who was, you know, against higher taxes, Right. Better for businesses. Right. But again, standing for these values that myself, as a racialized Chinese Canadian didn't stand for. And I saw this quote, Joe, and I'm going to say it here because I think it's really important. I don't know who wrote it, but it says, may you never know the fear of having your human rights challenged every time there's an election. And may you never know the pain of watching loved ones vote against your right to exist fully, equally and authentically. Because when and why do we politicise caring? When and why do we continue to politicise basic human rights, basic respect, basic understanding of people? Why is it that if you care about people of all different backgrounds, you are labelled this way? Politically, we are a very conservative family. I have always grown up with that because we come from Communist China. We came here as first generation immigrants, you know, pulled up our bootstraps, never asked for social assistance, worked from the ground up and built a legacy and a life for ourselves in this country. And so by virtue of that, and not trusting governments, because we come from Communist China, we have always, as a family, voted conservative. And this is the very first time we didn't, because again, the leader of our party did not represent the values we wanted to see shaping the next generation. And these are going to be the next generation of leaders, of government, of society. And they're watching every single thing we are doing right now and all the decisions we are making. And they are asking, how did you treat our parents? How did you treat our family? How did you treat my lineage and my legacy? Because those will impact and shape the values that they have later on. Right. Yeah. As you, as you're talking there, I'm, Joanne Lockwood: I'm almost a bit choked in that quote you gave. That that quote would not have resonated with me. Ten years ago, I was voting for parties for my pocket, for my wealth, for my economy, for my business. What I'm now hyper aware is that I'm now voting for my safety, for my right to exist, my right, my freedoms. And that is something in my old life as a perceived straight white male, I never had to consider that side of it. But now you're right. I am now hyper, hyper, hyper aware of my right to exist. And I'm scared, I mean, I really am scared about some of the parties and some of the political rhetoric in the UK and also that's coming from the US it's actually threatening my right to even walk the street. And yeah, we saw this in. Yeah. And I don't like drawing parallels to 1930s Germany, but we, this is the state we're looking at. We're looking at countries around the world that have oppressive regimes that are denying people's freedoms. And I'm almost unbelievably thinking that this could happen in my town, in my village, in my house right now. And it's absolutely scary. It really is. And yeah, that quote you gave was, is so brutally real. Yeah. And like I said, Jenny Chen: we are my family. We are in the highest tax bracket here. And I knew that voting a certain way would mean that we're paying 54 cents on the dollar of every dollar we earn to the government, and we're not here for that. But at the end of the day, our kids. My stepson is a schoolteacher. My daughters are both engineers and scientists. Right. Our extended family are all nurses. And so the certain, certain political platforms, certain political parties will impact with their policies, impact our family. Our kids can't buy homes right now in Canada. Right. And across the world, like, housing prices are so high, the healthcare systems all over the globe are, are broken. Even, even in Canada, where countries look up to our health care system, our public health care system here is broken. We actually have private healthcare in Canada. We choose to, but we also have the option a lot of families don't. And so again, looking beyond our myopic needs, our individual needs, and seeing the world around us and who is in society today and making sure that things like just safety rights that we fought so long for aren't stripped away. Because progress, as we know, as we've seen, is so incredibly fragile. But I can tell you. 30% of our country voted for a party whose leader spews the same hateful rhetoric that the US has allowed into their government right now. And it's scary. Well, not an insignificant Joanne Lockwood: portion of the UK population is voting for parties which have allegiances to the Republican government in the US and these are kindred spirits, all financed through the same sort of money channels. And yeah, it is. And we see the rise of this over Europe, in France and other countries, and Germany is even seeing a pushback for the first time since the war that they're seeing a rise in right wing politics in Germany. And this is spreading around the world. No longer should we be worried about communism stealing our freedoms. We should be worried about the rise of fascism stealing our freedoms and squeezing out the middle ground. Right, Jenny Chen: exactly. You know, in, in Canada, there was a, there was in Toronto, Canada, so four hours away from here, but the biggest, one of the biggest metropolises in Canada, there was a protest yesterday where a group of masked men were protesting for mass deportation and anti DEI here in Toronto. Right. 2025, Joe. I never thought that that would happen. And they're actually chanting, you know, Shiloh Hendricks did nothing wrong. Shiloh Hendricks in Massachusetts was a white woman who has a viral video of her spewing racial slurs at a black autistic child in a park. Right. She's calling him the N word, she's berating him. And when she was questioned on why she did it, she said, well, if that's what he's going to act like. And there's a group now protesting, saying she's done nothing Wrong, she's raised $700,000 in support from people in our own communities. Right. That are saying that she was within her right to do this to a 5 year old autistic black boy in a park. And so if you think around the world, because I know that there's listeners from all around the world hearing this podcast, that if you think that these things don't happen in our very own backyards, it's because we weren't looking. But some of us experience this each and every single day. It's so Joanne Lockwood: easy to see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear, and not open the door, not lift the carpet, not look under because our communities and our echo chamber isn't talking about it. It doesn't mean it's not happening. Yeah. And I said this during our Jenny Chen: earlier discussion, like we don't need any more DEI statements or DEI initiatives, like we don't need any more labels or more buckets or any more separate systems that we create for different people. You know, we don't need more committees. And if, when we talk about inclusion, we really need to stop assigning the work of equity to the very people most impacted by exclusion. That's actually why I created my consulting firm, because I'm helping organisations take off their own blinder and reevaluate the foundation in which their company is built on. And I'm really tired of companies thinking that just because they've put together an employee resource group or a diversity council, that means they're driving change. Absolutely not. Right, again, back to our earlier point. These were created not as innovation tools, but they started because underrepresented people had no seat at decision making tables. So we created these spaces for ourselves, for survival, for solidarity, for, for a sense of community. And it's easy for organisations to use these groups as a way to say, look, we're doing something right without actually changing the systems that created the need for these groups in the first place. And so I don't think that's inclusion. I actually think those groups are a way of containing the voices. And I think it's time we call it what it is. Right. And we, we just need redesign and we need clarity and we need workplaces that work for everyone. But more than anything, we need courage, because courage is needed to drive the change that we need to challenge some of these really hurtful, exclusive behaviours that have remained a pervasive, perpetual issue in society today. I think that's Joanne Lockwood: very powerful. You know, just to paraphrase what you said, you know, equity is championed by those who lack it, I guess, is what you're trying to say there. And the problem, I go back to the point I made earlier as well, is how do we get the people who have the power, the privilege, the tools to enable, you know, sexism is a male problem, racism is a white problem. You know, how do we get the people who propagate these systems of oppression to recognise that they have to step up and create the equity? I can't create equity from underneath. It has to be allowed. But they're so busy fighting their own equity battle, their own needs, their own threats, their own analysis, so we're all pulling in different directions. The challenge is trying to get everybody around the table working out what the zero sum game isn't and all going, actually, if we just stop all this bickering and just carrying on, we all be great. But it's almost like an impossible ask because we're so Divided. We're so focused on ourselves. We're so focused on our rights and our needs and our environment, we can't stop and look at somebody else. I don't spend a lot of my time thinking about the issues of racism or ableism in society because that's not my crusade. But it is others. I'm not a bad person. I'm just not looking in that direction. Think that. Well, actually, this is. Jenny Chen: This is exactly why I also started my podcast. I'm not 183 episodes in Joe. I'm only five. But it's called Tune up youp Warrior. Because I had been championing systemic change by sharing not only my own lived experiences, but experiences of everyone who had the courage to share it with me during my time leading diversity, equity, inclusion efforts. And then by sharing these experiences, I was actually told that I needed to tone down my warrior. That these personal stories I had shared about overcoming adversity, about standing up for what's right, weren't aligned with the image of a leader they wanted to project. And at first I didn't even know what that means. Like, what does tone down your warrior meaning? And I actually replaced ally. What we thought of an ally, what we considered an ally before, right? I'm tired of the word ally. Because you can be an ally, know something is wrong and do absolutely nothing about it. What I always think is what we need more of. We need more warriors, right? Ones that will challenge status quo, will stand up for the people who don't have a voice or are the only ones at a table. How many times did we have to stand up for ourselves in a very uncomfortable situation? Right? Though that moment was a turning point when I was told to tone down my warrior because I realised that I wasn't meant to lower that voice, I was meant to amplify it. And I think that we just need to raise awareness about these experiences so that people can understand what is still happening. Because if you look at what happened with what I mentioned, Chinese history in Canada, what we've learned through the discovery of, you know, what has taken place for Indigenous communities all around the world, black communities all around the world, is that we don't put it in history books, we don't talk about it. And because we don't talk about it, we treat it like it's something of our past or that it no longer exists. And so I think having the courage to share these experiences, but also not your own experiences, sharing the experiences of others at tables where there are still so few of us there will help inspire the change that we desperately need. Because again, to your earlier point, we don't even, we don't even look for it because we don't know it's happening. But once we learn about it, whether it's through people that are in our own circles, our networks, our workplaces, our neighbours that go through it, only then can we realise these are still very much challenges that we have to overcome here as a society. I think we'll leave it there, if that's okay. Joanne Lockwood: I think that's a fascinating conversation. I think your insight and perspective have been absolutely mind opening for me and I hope if you're listening to this, that you'll also be challenged on your own perspectives on what Jenny's been saying. So Jenny, how can people get hold of you if they want to connect with you and find out more about you? Yeah, Jenny Chen: absolutely. So you can find me through catalias.com that's C-A-T-A-L-A-I S.com and there you'll find all the different ways to get a hold of me. You'll have a link to my podcast that's available everywhere called Tune up your Warrior and follow me on Instagram Catalias Consulting because there's a if you really enjoyed or what I said resonated with you, I try and share these little nuggets often as they come up pop up in my brain because I think that we really need to have more conversations like this. Not left completely agree with that. You're not going to have any Joanne Lockwood: resistance. We're one and truly in the same echo chamber here. So yeah, I'm an open door to your thoughts. So Jenny, thank you so much. Thank you, Joe. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more information. Enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.