--- title: "Owls And The Fowls" episode: 183 date: 2025-11-14 guest: "Stephen Jasper" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/183-owls-and-the-fowls audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-183/audio.mp3 --- # Owls And The Fowls Joanne Lockwood is joined by jet lag consultant and chrono-diversity advocate Stephen Jasper for a wide-ranging conversation about how our biological rhythms shape work, wellbeing, and inclusion. Stephen shares how extensive international travel led him from pharmacy and the pharmaceutical industry to a PhD focused on jet lag, and why sunlight and timing are central to managing it. Together they unpack the practical realities of travelling across time zones, including the difference between jet lag and travel fatigue, why “east is a beast and west is best” for many people, and how sleep disruption can affect cognitive performance, relationships, and day-to-day functioning. Stephen explains how light influences circadian rhythms, why late-night screen use can keep people awake, and why alcohol is a particularly poor choice when travelling. The discussion then turns to workplace inclusion through the lens of chrono-diversity. Joanne and Stephen explore the stigma and bias often directed at “night owls”, the limitations of rigid nine-to-five expectations, and how flexible working and remote collaboration can allow people to work in ways that better match their natural rhythms. The episode closes with a call to treat chrono-diversity as a genuine inclusion issue, creating cultures where different sleep and productivity patterns are recognised and valued. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Sparking Change - 06:06 — Unexpected Journey Through Travel - 07:28 — Saved by Sunlight and Walking - 11:56 — Westward Flying and Sleep Patterns - 16:14 — Jet Lag vs Travel Fatigue - 22:51 — Travel Fatigue and Weight Struggles - 25:55 — Blinds Closed for Crew Convenience - 27:15 — Adjusting Time While Travelling - 30:43 — Light-Triggered Wakefulness Explained - 35:34 — Embracing Flexible Work Rhythms - 37:09 — Shift in Work-Life Routine - 41:23 — Workplace Perception Bias - 44:08 — Managing Routine and Early Appointments - 46:28 — Horses, Sleep, and Jet Lag - 49:37 — Jet Lag and Adrenaline Insights - 53:25 — Jet Lag in Politics - 56:59 — Choose Inclusion, Inspire Change ## Key takeaways - The difference between jet lag and travel fatigue, and why it matters for health and performance. - The profound impact of chronodiversity, highlighting how morning “fowls” and night “owls” experience travel, work, and sleep. - How direction of travel (east vs west) influences jet lag severity, and practical strategies to manage recovery. - The biological role of sunlight and light exposure in regulating circadian rhythm, plus technological innovations like electronic sunlight glasses. - Stigma and bias attached to different sleep chronotypes in workplaces and society, and ways to foster greater inclusion. - The benefits of flexible working arrangements for harnessing peak productivity, wellbeing, and belonging. - The cognitive risks linked with sleep deprivation, and actionable habits for safeguarding long-term mental health and family relationships. ## FAQs ### What is “chronodiversity” and why does it matter in the workplace? Chronodiversity refers to the natural variation in people’s circadian rhythms—essentially, whether you’re a ‘morning lark’ or a ‘night owl’. As Stephen Jasper explains, these tendencies are shaped both by genetics and age. Recognising chronodiversity is vital for inclusive work cultures, as forcing standard 9-to-5 hours on everyone can undermine productivity and wellbeing, particularly for those whose natural rhythms don’t align with traditional work schedules. --- ### Is there scientific backing for the idea that some people are more productive at different times of day? Yes. As outlined by Stephen Jasper, extensive research shows that people’s peak alertness and productivity are not universal. Teenagers, for example, typically have later chronotypes, while young children and many older adults may naturally wake and sleep earlier. Societies and teams that recognise and accommodate these differences are better positioned to enhance both diversity and performance. --- ### What is the difference between jet lag and travel fatigue? Jet lag is a specific consequence of rapidly crossing multiple time zones, leading to a misalignment between your internal body clock and local time. Travel fatigue, as Stephen Jasper points out, is physical tiredness from the process of travelling (e.g., long flights, layovers), regardless of time zone changes. You can be exhausted after a long journey without being jet lagged if your circadian rhythm isn’t disrupted. --- ### Why is travelling east typically harder than travelling west? Stephen Jasper succinctly summarises with, “East is a beast, west is best.” Most people find eastbound travel more challenging because it requires advancing the body clock—going to bed earlier than usual—whereas westbound travel extends the waking day, which feels more natural for most chronotypes. However, the effect can flip for extreme morning types (‘fowls’), who may struggle more with westbound travel. --- ### How long does it take to recover from jet lag? The rough rule is one day per time zone crossed, as shared by Stephen Jasper. For example, travelling across ten time zones might take up to ten days for full adjustment. Factors such as age, chronotype, health status, and use of mitigation strategies (like light exposure) influence this duration. --- ### Why do cabin crews want passengers to keep the window blinds down during some flights? Cabin crew often try to keep their own body clocks anchored to their ‘home’ time zone, especially if they’re regularly flying back within a short time frame. Blocking out new daylight cues by keeping window blinds closed helps prevent their circadian rhythms from adjusting to the local destination, making return adjustment easier. Passengers wanting to acclimatise to the new time zone, however, should seek out local sunlight after arrival. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. Today is episode 183 with the title Owls and the Fouls. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Stephen Jasper Stephenis a jet lag consultant and chrono diversity advocate who reshapes how we review time, productivity and work based inclusion. When I asked Stephen to describe his superpower, he said it is providing simple interventions that help people manage not only their jet lag, but their working lives and productivity. Hello, Stephen, welcome to the show. Hello, Stephen Jasper: Joanne. Thanks for the lovely welcome. Absolute pleasure. Joanne Lockwood: I could tell by your accent you're not from around these parts. Stephen Jasper: I'm about as far away from those parts as you can get. Really? Yes, I am. I'll confess up front, I am an Australian and that's why it's pitch black here. It's just gone midnight when you're interviewing me and I'm a bit of a night owl. Come back to that. And it's a public holiday here, so that's what I'm doing on my public holiday at midnight. So which public holiday is it? It's a public holiday called Anzac Day and the closest equivalent I know, the Americans have Veterans Day. What's the UK equivalent? Armistice. Yeah. Joanne Lockwood: Remembrance Sunday. Armistice. Yeah, that kind of thing. Or Victory in Europe. VE Day. Those sort of things. Yeah, those sort of. It's. But Stephen Jasper: it's a commemoration of a loss. So Anzac stands for Australia, New Zealand Army Corps. So of course it's celebrated in both Australia and New Zealand and it's a loss in a place called Gallipoli in Turkey. So 10 years ago they had their hundredth anniversary and it was a very big and emotional deal. So we will have a dawn service and halfway between me and the city, I'm about eight kilometres out of the city, we have the shine of remembrance and there'll be a. A dawn service there for the fallen and fallen, those who. In war. And so there's going to be early morning trams, like 4 o' clock in the morning transport to get people to the shrine of remembrance or other places of commemoration. So very. A very Joanne Lockwood: deep, meaningful. And I say sombre. Sombre. Stephen Jasper: Sombre is a good word for sombre. Yeah, yeah. Reflection of the Joanne Lockwood: nation's loss. Yeah. And remembrance. And also gratitude to Stephen Jasper: those who fought for our nation. Yeah, it's. I don't know if you have the Joanne Lockwood: same expression. In Australia we would say lest we forget. Stephen Jasper: It's a very much. Yeah, very much. That phrase here. And we have the torch that gets lit and. Okay, is that a thing that you do there? Is that an Australian thing? Like in a. An RSL or a legacy club with a member? They'll say lest we forget. And there's a torch that gets lit. It's an electric light inside a torch. I don't know Joanne Lockwood: that particular tradition. We will probably have a lone bugler trumpeting out the last post. Yes, we have that, but you. Okay, we had the torch as Stephen Jasper: well. So I'm not aware of the torch. So it's possible we Joanne Lockwood: would lay holly wreaths at the cenotaph or. Yeah, we would lay wreath to Hollywood. That's more of a First World War remembrance as well, right? Yes. And also rosemary sprigs. Is that a thing for you? I don't think we're big on rosemary sprigs in the. In the uk. But Stephen Jasper: it's for remembrance. It's not to, you know, garnish your lamb roast. Joanne Lockwood: We have rosemary, but now we would use poppies. Poppy poppies are kind of our remembrance symbol. Stephen Jasper: We use poppies as well, but they tend to be fake because I don't know that there's a lot of. They certainly don't grow wild here. I have seen gardens near me, but, yeah, they don't. They're biodegradable these days. They used to be Joanne Lockwood: paper and plastic. Hopefully they're better now. Wow. We just had a quick cultural lesson, so thank you for that, Stephen. It was fascinating. I don't know if it's linked at all, but, you know, you are a jet lag expert. And cranodiversity. You could talk a bit about cranodiversity. Is the fact you're in Australia contributing factor to the fact you're an expert in jet lag? Stephen Jasper: Absolutely, absolutely. Australia is the best place in the world to research jet lag. And if you've ever flown here, you'll understand why. And I'll explain how I got into it, because how did this guy become a jet lag expert? So I started off life as a pharmacist and I was happy as a compounding pharmacist working in the hospital system. So I'm one of those people that actually knows how to work in water and pestle. I can drive those things. And after about 10 years in the hospital system and you get burnout. I hear stories about, you know, the nurses, especially during the pandemic, how exhausting it was. And I felt for them because I'd been, you know, in that and not in the pandemic. And I moved into the pharmaceutical industry, which is a fairly logical progression. And I had a number of roles and I fell into a role where I did a lot of travel and there was no expectation that I travelled when I went for the job, either from the people hiring me or me myself, there was no expectation of travel. And I had a boss and he said, I'm sick of travel, you do it. So I did it. And so I became one of the small number of Australians that does crazy travel. You know, could I fly to America through a week and stopped by London for a couple of days on my way home? That was normal. And I think my craziest travel, the one that really changed my life was a three day trip to Buenos Aires. And if you know anything, it's 11 time zones. The jet lag between here and South America is insane. It's about as bad as you can possibly get. And it was four flights going there from Melbourne to Sydney to Auckland to Santiago to Buenos Aires. Worked, you know, worked for two days, had a day off at the end of it and did it all in reverse. So that was, yeah, that was my craziest escapade. And so I had an interest because I get shocking jet lag, you know, if I don't treat it. My jet lag is absolutely shocking, as I discovered on my first overseas trip. And the thing that saved me, and I didn't know it at the time, but I know now on the first day, the people I was training said, hey, we're going to lunch, we could drive you, but it's only a kilometre away. Do you want to go for a walk? I'd love to go for a walk and have, you know, see the streets of Buenos Aires. That's not something you see every day. And it was sunny, you know, it was Winter, but it was sunny and that sunlight absolutely saved me. So sunlight is a key thing. And so I did an MBA after that job and I wanted to do project management. Looked around, nothing interesting came up. I was being offered pretty much the same sort of roles that I'd done. So I thought, stop it, I'll do a PhD as you do. I was hunting around for things and my supervisor and research manager were all saying, no, that's rubbish, don't do that. And then I mentioned the whole jet lag, explain the story. And they said, yes, absolutely, this is what you should do, research. And I did it. And that's how I became the jet lag guy. So, yes, I have a PhD in jet lag, so wow. International management. So it was a series of so many left turns. That's a spiral. I'm just Joanne Lockwood: thinking there must be a, a whole collective of jet lag PhD, experts of one. Yeah. Stephen Jasper: And also, I mean, there's lots of scientists that do circadian rhythm stuff. And that's great. We need more of that. And I cite them. But in terms of international management, now, bearing in mind I was doing it through what was then the College of Business and Law, so people were writing about finance, economics, they're, you know, big on blockchain and of course all the various types of law. And I came across fairly late in my PhD, a study where they injected hamsters with Viagra for jet lag. And I had worked with Viagra in the clinical trials back in 97. I actually, you know, was up close and personal, you know, with 2,000 bottles of Viagra, and it was still being researched. And so I dedicated a paragraph for my PhD to that statement, you know, and it's all done academically. I think I lay claim to being the only person in that college to ever have written a paragraph about Viagra being injected into hamsters for jet lag. So, yeah, that, that's, I think that's unique. Blowing here, thinking, what other side effects did the hamster Joanne Lockwood: exhibit with Viagra? Well, that's the funny Stephen Jasper: thing. I mean, going back to, like I said, I've worked with Viagra. It started off as a heart drug. It opens blood vessels, surprise, surprise, it opens some other blood vessels. And one of the nurses in the very early stage, like first time in humans trials, asked the patient, did you notice anything? Well, actually, nurse, I noticed. And da, da, da, da, da. And interestingly, that same drug. I'm digressing here, that's fascinating. Fascinating. Is used in a serious cardiovascular condition called pulmonary arterial hypertension. And it's fatal. It strokes mostly young women. It's a horrible disease. But the active drug sildenafil is used in that application to open up blood vessels and alleviate that. So it is still used as a cardiovascular drug, but it gets a lot more use with other uses. Joanne Lockwood: Yes, yes. And it's also now useful for jet lag, Stephen Jasper: but only in the eastbound direction. That's the other. Joanne Lockwood: That was my next question. In my earlier career I used to work for a private bank and they had offices in Hong Kong, Singapore and la, San Diego, New York, Miami, east and west and Uruguay and Bahamas and Cayman, other other lovely places. So I used to fly regularly east, west, up, down across Europe and further afield. And I was aware that there was a different experience of east west travel to west east travel. Stephen Jasper: So what's, what's the, what's the okay for most people? And I'm going to put a, you know, red underline, yellow highlight. This is the kind of diversity kicking in for most people. East is a beast and west is best for most people. Flying east is a beast. And here's the thing. And for morning people it's the other way around. So let, let me unpack that because that just sounds random. So when you fly west, say if you're, you're in London, if you fly to Los Angeles, the day seems to stretch out whether it's a long night or a long day, but your day seems to stretch out. It seems to last longer than 24 hours. So what you do is you stay up late and you have a sleep in. But if you're a night owl, lovely, that's fine. If you're a morning person, that's hard. And then going the other way, flying east, the day seems to shrink. So your sun rises and sets less than 12 hours because you're flying against the sun. So you have to go to bed early when you're not really tired and wake up early when you still are tired. For night owl, that's hard going. But for a morning person or a foul, that's easier for them. Yep, they'll go to bed early and wake up early. So there's that intersection between direction of flight and chronodiversity. And that's where I stumbled into onto that. And I'll give you an example from my own life. During my PhD, I got a scholarship to go to an international management conference in Paris. You haven't had catering until you've been to an international management conference in Paris. But that's another story. But I noticed I flew there and it was my birthday. It's the only time in my life I've ever had a warm birthday because my birthday's in winter here. Landed and I was good to go. And I just said to the conference organisers, every break we get, I'll be going outside just to get some sunlight. And then I knew coming back, I had to throw everything I could at it because I'm a night owl. This is why I'm talking to you. Just after midnight, I did. I managed my jet lag. Day two, day three, I went to bed a little bit early, like 8:30, 9 o', clock, which is early for me, but I didn't lose any productivity. And that's when I. Yeah, I'm onto something. I'm definitely onto something. And I did everything I needed to do. So coming back. So that directional component's absolutely vital. Yeah. I was Joanne Lockwood: thinking the last time I went long haul was Australia, Melbourne, where you're. Where you are. That was pre Covid and I'd never travelled. Say again from. I'm in Melbourne. I'm not from Melbourne, I'm from the other cities. Sorry. Oops, Sorry. The most I'd ever flown before, I think in terms of time was Singapore, Thailand, those sort of Hong Kong and they tend to be about 13 hours. From the UK was about eight, Stephen Jasper: I think. Singapore. Eight, was it? Yeah, maybe. Maybe Joanne Lockwood: it was Thailand. It was Thailand. Thailand, I think, is Stephen Jasper: about. I think it might only about seven. No, it's definitely Joanne Lockwood: more than that. I've. Yeah, I've done it. Stephen Jasper: Singapore and Hong Kong are both +8 and Thailand's a little bit west time zone. I'm talking about flight time. Sorry, I'm talking about flight time. No, no, you're right. You're really right. Sorry. And I, Joanne Lockwood: I. Because when we went to Melbourne, we went via Singapore. Yeah, no, sorry, via. We went via Hong Kong. We stopped over in Hong Kong. I remember the journey. We got. We weren't rich, we. We went. We went coach. We were at the back of the plane, knees on our chest like you do. And the flight to Hong Kong was absolutely painful. And then you have to get off and you have to do it again. So you do 13 hours, have a couple of hours break and then you got to do another eight. It was that second eight. It's very heady. Yeah. It's not quite as far Stephen Jasper: from here to Hong Kong as it is from London, but it's still a long way. It's a long way, yeah. And so the jet lag was One thing, because, Joanne Lockwood: you know, you talked about the fact that you're flying into the sun or flying away from the sun when you're flying 18 hours total, the whole circadian rhythm gets messed up. You've gone past that. Is the day getting longer or shorter? It's wrapping itself, isn't it? Well, there's a couple Stephen Jasper: of things to pull apart there. And the first is jet lag versus travel fatigue. And an example I would give to you. Say you want to fly to Cape Town in South Africa, but you can't get a direct flight. So you've got to do a couple of, you know, you've got the long flight to Johannesburg, then you're going to hang around Johannesburg airport, then you get another flight to Cape Town and then you, you get in a taxi and you get to your hotel, right? And of course there's the getting to the airport in London at your end. That's an exhausting journey. And you'll be tired, but you won't be jet lagged because you're very similar time zone. There's no travel fatigue. I mean, sorry, there's no real jet lag. There's travel fatigue. Lots of travel fatigue. The example I use in Australia is if we flew to Vladivostok, same thing, lots of travel fatigue. If on the other hand, they rebuilt the Concorde, you know, or you know, some super duper. One article was talking about London to Australia in three hours and you've got this super, supersonic jet, right? Let's say you boarded the supersonic jet and for that three hours there's soft pillows and, you know, little meals and cups of tea and anything you could want, right? And you land in Melbourne three hours later, you won't have travel fatigue because you've had three hours just sitting very comfortably. It's like going to the movies. But the jet lag will be brutal. So I want to pull those two things apart. The other thing is when you fly so far east, what can happen is your brain doesn't shrink the day. It's like it's flying west. And I've had that happen to me. You get so disoriented because there's two mechanisms to adjust to flying east. You have phase advance. So you, you know, you go to bed and wake up early. That's called phase advance. Viagra helps with that mechanism. When you fly west, you have phase delay. You go to bed late and you wake up late and that's phase delay. And that's easier for most people. So what can happen if you Fly, say London to Australia and you're just so not coping. What your body might do instead of doing phase advance, it might go into phase delay and take you longer to overcome your jet lag. So. Yeah, absolutely. And that first flight from London to Hong Kong is the one that, that's the terrible one in terms of time jet lag. That's an eight hour time difference. Hong Kong to heat too, not a problem. So if you could stop at Hong Kong, you know, rest up, that will help. Yeah, that's exactly what I did on my first round the world trip. I stopped at Hong Kong for a few days cause I knew my jet lag would be terrible and it was. And I was fine. And I used the old Hong Kong airport. That was scary. I've landed in there when you're Joanne Lockwood: flying in. That was in the 90s. Yeah. Yes. Stephen Jasper: You fall through the mountains and you land on a cricket pitch. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah. I remember distinctly about that was you could smell the sewers in the plane when you were on the tarmac and you could smell Hong Kong coming through. I remember seeing Stephen Jasper: the slums. But what I also remember, at the end of the Runway there was a cafe and you could watch the planes landing or taking off. It just looked terrifying. You know, all that had to happen was for one plane not to break properly and it would plough straight into that cafe and. And everyone seems perfectly oblivious to that. No, no, absolutely not. Get me out of here. If I fly to the Joanne Lockwood: us they tend to structure the flight so that you get on mid evening and then you're effectively landing and waking up at six in the morning and then you just get off the plane and get on with your day. And then in reverse you structure the flights and then morning. So getting off and then going home, going to bed and then try and kick your routine back in, is that kind of a good thing to do? It can be. I think going Stephen Jasper: from the US to London is, will be harder for most people to having a day flight, I think I've done night flights, all my flights and they're brutal. The transatlantic eastbound crossings and I've done trans Pacific crossings a lot as well. But the transatlantics are the ones that get me because I don't get a chance to nap. I don't the overnight ones. So yeah, a day flight I think would be better. You know, the overnight ones. I be lucky to sleep for two hours on a transatlantic flight. And if you do it in this height of summer, you've got sunlight most of the way anyway. There's not Much night. You're flying that far north. When I was flying a lot, let's say Joanne Lockwood: back in the 90s, I used to do a lot of short haul. Let's say it was to. From London to Zurich. I guess that short haul, two and a half, three hours or whatever it was. We had domestic flights, given Stephen Jasper: that here. Yeah. I got so used to it Joanne Lockwood: that I could literally fall asleep before takeoff. And I would land as we landed. I would chop and wake up as we hit the tarmac at the other end. And I'd probably let out an expletive out of my mouth, go, that just happened something. Because I was mid deep sleep. Everyone around me going, what the hell is this going on? But now I found it very easy to fall asleep on those short hauls. And my technique for long haul is get on there and pick about four movies. And the movie that I'm not that fussed about is always the third or fourth one. Because I know by the time I've watched the first two that my brain is now getting to the tiresome stage. Then I found myself forcing myself to stay awake for the third. And generally I miss most of it. It's a bit like go for an operation. They inject you and say, count back from 10. You know, you never get past two. I never get past the third movie sort of thing. So it's a. It's a good technique that I've learned over the years. Now I'm Stephen Jasper: one of those strange people. They call it raw dogging, which sounds positively obscene. It's not. I just like to watch the flight map. I don't really want to watch movies. I don't want to have headphones in. I just. I just want to see my flight map. And I'm. I think we are relatively rare in the population in that we fall asleep on planes. I know, you know, I get the white noise and there's light vibration and bang, I'm out. But I know most people can't sleep on planes and they complain they can't sleep on planes. And I can't stay awake on the things, you know. So, yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I put a lot of weight on over. Over Covid and other things, and I flew to San Francisco. I found that really, really difficult to fly to San Francisco a couple of years ago after Covid, because I was a lot bigger. I was a lot more cramped. I was just uncomfortable. And it's. It really, as you say, that, that travel fatigue combined with the jet lag and just that frustration of the whole cramped in space, it's just, it's painful, isn't it? And the airlines know that that's the, the problem. And they, they charge you premium to book a bigger seat or to have pick your aisle. And it's like you trap me in the middle up middle aisle or you trap me by the window with a family next to me. It's hell, isn't it? Well, I, Stephen Jasper: I hate the middle seats. I really don't like the big planes. I'm happier on not the tiny ones, but you know, medium sized planes where I like being next to the window. But yeah, I think the flight from Raleigh Durham to London, I was near a whole lot of families with small children. So that was an overnight flight from Raleigh Durham international to London. So what's the Joanne Lockwood: recovery time? You know, I get you have the jet lag and I appreciate everyone's different, but how the body's natural recovery, what is the kind of process it goes through? Stephen Jasper: The rule of thumb is about a day per hour crossed. That's the rule of thumb. Bearing in mind a few things. First of all, that it's easy to recover from west than east for most people. So like I said, when I went to Paris, I just got off the plane, I'm good to go. Off we go. And when I went back, I managed to telescope it. I interviewed someone for my podcast. So it's wonderful doing a podcast. I don't have to press any buttons here. You can do that. And he investigated Canadian in speed skaters. He's based in Montreal and they looked at speed skaters and they recovered much more quickly than they anticipated. So I think the state of health is important. Of course these speed skaters are in peak condition. They have to be speed skaters. But the rule of thumb is a day for every hour cross. So if you're crossing 10 time zones, which you do from to London, give yourself 10 days. But I think it could be less. And I think there's lots of things you can do to manage that. If I'm, if Joanne Lockwood: I'm spending 10 days in Melbourne, it's going to take me 10 days when I'm in Melbourne to recover from the 10 days I'm in Melbourne. And then I ping back again. Is that 10 days plus 10 days, that's 20 days of recovery or does the reverse offset it? No. Yep. Well, there are some. An Stephen Jasper: airline crew typically do this and this is why they don't want you to open the windows, by the way, the blinds. Obviously not Joanne Lockwood: open the windows, but open the blinds. No, they don't want you to open The Stephen Jasper: Sorry, no, not open the window. Yeah, don't open the blinds. They don't want you to open the blinds. It's not for your convenience, it's for theirs. Because let's say you've got British Airways and they've got a crew based in London, they want to stay on London time because let's say they do a flight to Bangkok, they'll touch down, they'll have a nice set and then they'll be back on the plane the next day to come back to London. They want to stay on London time. They don't want to be adjusting and they don't want the sunlight in Bangkok when it's still nighttime in London to interfere with their circadian rhythm. But if you're a traveller, you want that blind open so you can get that Bangkok sunlight so your body adjusts. Yes, it's daytime. Yeah. I Joanne Lockwood: never thought about the cabin crew, the wanting to keep their time clock because if they're completely isolated from the external world and they stay on London time in their mind and in their job, the shift pattern, then they're not affected at all, are they? They just carry on living London time. That's it. And that's what Stephen Jasper: people do. There was one case where someone flew around the world, I think it was for Qantas and you know, he just stayed on planes and flew around the world but he stayed on Sydney time. And so he didn't get jet lagged because he stayed on Sydney time. He just ignored what was happening outside. Again, going back to the night when I used to Joanne Lockwood: fly. This was way before Internet and smartphones I think I did have an old Nokia 2110 phone that had global roaming or something so I could roam. But I tried to leave my watch. The old days we had a watch that you had to adjust manually. I tried to leave that on home time and then in my mind just translate what time I am. So I was always thinking about what time I was at home and then add five, add six, take away 10, whatever it was and then eventually I could give up after about four days and just set it, set it to the local time. But I guess that's me adjusting in a, in a slow slide by keeping the reference point back home. Well, it depends. Do you want to Stephen Jasper: adjust or do you want to stay on home time? That's the decision you're making now if you want to stay on home time. If it was a really short trip, stay on home time. You know, like the cabin crew typically stay on home time. Don't Adjust your watch, leave it to London time or whatever, stay on home time. If it's a longer trip and you really want to adjust to the local time or you need to perform within the working hours of local time, get onto local time right away. Get on, you know, adjust your watch right away. There's a decision. But, yeah, go one way or the other is what I would say. Rather than stay on 1. Don't sit on the fence. Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, sit on the fence. It's just painful. Make a decision one way Stephen Jasper: or the other and then stick to it. Are there ways to sort of fool Joanne Lockwood: your body? I mean, you mentioned sunlight is a good way of getting your brain chemicals flowing. Eating food at re. Changing your eating habits is that or your pattern. Eating food is Stephen Jasper: secondary. Sunlight is the big one. And I've got a little gizmo I'll show you in a moment. But there's five different types of light receptors in the eye. You've got SO3 for colour vision. So think of red, green, blue, kind of sort of red, green, blue. You've got one for low level lighting and that's why you don't see colour very clearly in low level lighting. It's not geared for colour. And then you've got receptors that have nothing to do with vision and everything to do with regulating your circadian rhythm. And they're most sensitive to light in the blue, green, that sort of cyan colour, that sort of wavelength. And that's very primitive. If you think of like blue green algae in the water when they're sort of sinking or rising depending on the time of day, that's the colour of light that penetrates that blue green colour. So that's why it penetrates water better than any other wavelength. And I met a young man a few years ago and he went blind. Suddenly at the age of 16, his optic nerve just stopped working, which is a really awful thing. And so he was legally blind, but he still had a circadian rhythm. And a lot of blind people still have a circadian rhythm. A lot don't and they have to, you know, and this is where melatonin supplementation for those people can be useful. But yeah, it's independent of vision and a little gizmo. So this is an Australian invention because we love our jet lag here. And I was speaking with the inventor the other week and they. These are electronic sunlight glasses. So it's that cyan showing up for. Anybody who's listening to this and can't see it. So Joanne Lockwood: Stephen's got what looked like half Glass half, half glasses, white frames. And then they're beaming a blue light into his eyes. Yeah, blue green light. Blue green light. Yeah. So they're beaming light. And what Stephen Jasper: this does. And I better take them off because I want to get to sleep tonight. True, true is they wake you up and I go to networking events and I hand them around and get people to try them on. And for some people, they say it's like having a shot of coffee, and for other people, they're fine with it. And I think part of it is because I'm doing this about seven or eight o'clock at night. The morning people, their melatonin starting to kick in. And what this does, it sends a message to the eye saying, hey, it's sunlight, wake up. And that sends a message to the brain saying, hey, stop producing melatonin. Little part of the brain called the suprachiasmatic nucleus stop producing melatonin. Wake up. And the evening people, their melatonin hasn't kicked in yet, so they're fine. They just put them on, don't feel a thing. So there's, there's labs that are similar. They have that blue, green colour. And this is, this is Joanne Lockwood: the logic behind things like mobile phones having dark mode. Stephen Jasper: Exactly. Adjusting the tone, night mode, Joanne Lockwood: you adjust the. The balance of light as well, so you make them more yellow at night. Things like this, it gets a reddish kind of tinge, Stephen Jasper: Like a reddish yellowy, tawny sort of tinge. That's. That's cutting out the blues and the greens. That's what it's doing, cutting out the blues and the greens. You get this sort of sandy, bluish, reddish kind of colour. And so that's what night mode is. And it's doing that with your cell phones and your monitors, that sort of thing. Yes. You're trying not to Joanne Lockwood: feed your brain chemicals with daylight light. Stephen Jasper: That's it. And that's why, you know, they tell people, don't doom scroll late at night. You know, you're giving. You're not only keeping yourself awake with all the horrors of what's happening in the world, but, you know, and there's some horrors, but you're feeding the blue light that's keeping you awake, you've got bad news that's keeping you awake and blue light keeping you awake. And then, no surprise, you get insomnia. Yeah, Joanne Lockwood: I'm guilty of that. Guilty of that, definitely. Yeah. But I flip my phone, goes into automatic night mode or dark Mode at about 8 o' clock in the evening, so. Oh, that's good. I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's brilliant, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Stephen Jasper: So. And in my research in jet lag, like I said, it intersected with Chronodiversity. And this is something. I'm a night owl and I've been that all my life. And it does change with age. So if you've ever been the parent of small children, there's no such thing as a sleep in because they're up, ready to play, it's 6:00am Come on, let's go. And then when you're the parent of teenagers, like, you know, they're up at the crack of noon, you know, that's, that's what happened. Yeah, teenagers. Yeah, teenagers were laying. They'll Joanne Lockwood: sleep anyway, weren't they? Teenagers? Yeah, I remember, yeah. But that's Stephen Jasper: actually really useful for us as a species. So that they researched a tribe in Africa and they found they had morning people and late people. This was natural. And there was only a total of about 80 minutes, 18 when everyone was asleep. Otherwise someone was awake. Really handy in Africa, you know, there's lions and jaguars and stuff. You want someone to protect the tribe from prey. So this is why chronodiversity is a feature, not a bug. And if you, you know, if you're under attack from predators or enemies or someone, you know, late at night trying to take advantage, who do you want awake? Crazy teenagers is who you want to wake. You know, they'll, they're at, they're physically fit and they'll, they'll just go for it. So that's why, you know, chronodiversity is a feature and we treat it like a bug. And over in Australia we have an election coming up and the opposition initially had a policy against working from home. They said, right, we're going to abolish working from home in the public service. There was an outcry. There was an absolute outcry. And they pointed out it's going to mostly affect women. Do you really want to lose women's votes? And they said, actually no. They reversed on the working from home, which is good because it was bad policy. And I don't think it was clearly thought through. But one of the benefits with working from home is you can choose your hours. For most people, you can choose your hours. And I had a positive experience some years ago because I always struggled to be in the office at 9. That's just, I've got to get, you know, getting on crowded commuter transit, you know, it's just awful. And I Was working with a team based in Paris and I. I was in Sydney initially, then Melbourne and I didn't need to be at the office at 9, I'd start at lunchtime. They weren't going to be in the office until at least 4:30 in the afternoon my time. I could work on things and then if I had any questions, we could video conference early evening for me and it was just liberating As a night owl it was. I got to be who I was and people valued who I was and I want that for everyone. And it's not a one size fits all, but being able to work with your own body's natural rhythm. So that's. I'm passionate about that. And now, you know, I've been working in academia. I've had one class at 8am that was unusual but my morning classes start at 11:30, so technically morning classes, yeah. It's interesting what you say there about how over the course of our Joanne Lockwood: life our internal cranodiversity mortifies. I remember being, I suppose in my early 20s. I was, I was very much. Everyone accused me of burning the candle at both ends. I was getting up early and working late. I was in it. So I end up working on systems all night, getting locked into something and then I had a job where I had to travel for two hours. I got in the car, I woke up every day at 5 o' clock in the morning, I was in the car, I got into my office at 10 to 8 or something like this, beat all the traffic and then I got a clear run. Then in the evening I hung on until the traffic had passed. I got home at 8:30, 9 o' clock in the evening, have my tea and I'd probably still do something and then I go to bed about midnight, I'd be up again at five and I behaved and performed like that for five, six, seven years. And all of a sudden I stopped doing that very early morning, I didn't need to. And I found my ability to start early, disappear completely. And then my job changed again and I wasn't working all night, I wasn't staying up all night and I found my ability to keep going, disappear completely. So now I'm a kind of an 8 o' clock in the morning person till 8 o' clock at night. Outside of that I'm just not functional in a professional sense anymore. Right. What Stephen Jasper: time is it there now, by the way? 50. So 10 to 4 in the Joanne Lockwood: afternoon. Right. That's quite civilised. Good, good, good. Yes it is, yeah. I've got good lighting, so I've probably got some daylight lighting here as well. No, the only lighting I Stephen Jasper: would get is the aurora australis at this time of night. We do have aurora sightings down here, by the way, so that's not made up down amongst the penguins. But that evolution of our own Joanne Lockwood: self, was it because it was a habit or is it because of my ageing and changing hormones and changing life changing? I tick all Stephen Jasper: of the above for that. I mean, look, when you're in your 20s, you're bulletproof or you feel bulletproof. And I know in my 20s I was working in the hospital systems, I. I'd do late night shifts and on calls and, you know, I'd be called into makeup and infusion at 3 o' clock in the morning and doing, you know, maths and, you know, crazy stuff like that. And I was doing that, I think, into my 30s. I couldn't imagine doing that now. I couldn't imagine showing up in a Hospital at 9am and compounding. And I worked really hard. In hospitals, you work hard, there's no two ways about it. And that's why all the nurses during the pandemic and the doctors, like, yeah, I feel you. I have sympathy for you. I've been up against it, doing that hard work and having to have additional protection, you know, you had to have the masks and what have you Absolutely had to. That was absolutely. Yeah, I'm glad I wasn't working the healthcare system at that time. But again, I think ageing is part of it and your chronotype changes. You become less of a night owl, you sort of peak for men, males, I think we're about 17 and for females about 15. I think somewhere around that. And then you drift towards being a more of a morning person or some of us drift. I seem to have stayed. I have adolescent chronic. That's just how it is. Yeah, I definitely struggle now beyond Joanne Lockwood: 10 o' clock at night. Yeah. And I'm not particularly early riser. My alarm goes off at quarter to seven in the morning. So, yeah, past 10 o'. Clock. That's it. Yeah. And also you missed out on Stephen Jasper: a lot of sleep. There will be some catch up. You know, there's unfortunately been a link to lack of sleep and dementia, so I take my sleep as absolutely sacred. And I think there was an example, the late Margaret Thatcher, who famously lived on four hours of sleep, but. Yes, but she ended her life with dementia. So, you know, that sort of thing. Exact surprise. Maybe it's linked. Maybe it's Not. But, you know, that's. Sleep is just one of the pillars of health. And again with Chronodiversity, letting people sleep when it suits them. We have such a stigma in society. My father used to say to me all the time, early to bed and early to rise makes men healthy, wealthy and wise. And, you know, we have all these sayings. You know, the early bird catches the worm, different languages will have different sayings, all saying the same thing. And there's a real stigma about it. And people say, oh, I've done half a day's work before breakfast. No, I did mine the night before. I did mine the night before, I'm done, so I could sleep in. I. I've Joanne Lockwood: seen that, that kind of bias exhibit itself in the workplace myself, where, because I was. I was an early and a later, I'd be in there sort of 8 o' clock and I'd see people coming in. Some people would drift in half nine or whatever it is, and they would be sort of saying to people, oh, you're leaving already? It's only five o', clock, the night shift's already here sort of thing. There's this perception that you don't see the habit of the other people. You think they're slacking because you only see what you see. That overlapping period is probably a third of your working day. So you think you've done a third more than they have because they've come in later, but really they're staying on. So, yeah, there is a bias there. Stephen Jasper: There absolutely is. And it's a real stigma. And they do research on evening types of the owls. So you should talk about the owls and the fowls, which is different to the birds and the bees. But if you're a morning person, you're said to be a foul, and if you're an evening person, you're said to be an owl. That. That's the explanation. But there's a real stigma against owls. Real stigma against night. Night owls is like, as a night owl, I know I'm every bit as productive. As a morning person, I just do it later, or in my case, to do it the night before. So. And this push against work from home, I don't know why people need to be micromanaged. If they. If they can do their job at home and be as productive, let them, Let people select their hours. You might need to have a zoom time that suits everyone. See if you can have it in the middle of the day. And if people have to meet in the office, do that occasionally. But See if you could do that in the middle of the day. But this nonsense, you know, everyone rushing to work to be in the office at 9 o' clock is bonkers. I came to the conclusion after Joanne Lockwood: some self reflection I realised no matter what time I came in I'd always end up leaving at the same time, late, whatever it was and I'd always end up getting the same thing done, you know, I'd always achieve the same amount. So I soon realised that there was no benefit to me to coming in at early o' clock because I'd still be there at 8 o' clock and I still get the same thing done in the day. So I thought well hang on a minute, why do I put my pressure on myself to come in really early and do this both end stuff? I might as well just start at 10, finish at 8 in the evening and say that's the way I work. Yeah Stephen Jasper: and that's what I do. I try not to do much before 10 unless I'm dealing with Americans and that's because of the time zone difference. So you know, but my American, any colleagues, my Americans I know, I'll just be there with a cup of tea and don't talk. I mean I've set my online diary, Joanne Lockwood: my calendar up so that the first appointment is never before half nine in the morning and my last appointment is half five to half six in the evening. That's quite so, yeah. Sometimes I'll end up having to accommodate someone from a different time zone or I have to get a meeting in and I said it's a nine or something like this and I'll wake up in the morning, I'd just be chilling out, doing my morning routine, listen to the radio and listen to the quiz on the radio, listen to the favourite song of the day and then I go and have my shower and I come back to it and look at my phone go my God, I've got a beating in two seconds. It's like how did that. My brain's tuned itself that the day starts at 9:30 and yeah, I've got to sometimes check that. So when I go to bed I go what? I programme my brain say right, I've got to get up early and my brain goes okay, I'll do that. Well I have my alarm set, so I have my Stephen Jasper: daily list in my phone of what times things are on and okay, what alarms do I need to set? So I set an alarm for 10 minutes to midnight. Normally I'd set it for five minutes. I wanted this. I don't haven't used this platform much, so I thought, I'll get in nice and early. And I have a friend who rings me about 10 past, quarter past 11 when she worked. So, um, she, she works until 11:00 o' clock and she was in a near miss, in a car accident. Near miss. So she was, you know, survived, but she was rattled. And I said, well, why don't you ring me when you're driving home from work? Because that was when she'd get nervous. I'll be awake. And so we, we chat typically three or four times a week at 11 o' clock at night. And that works for both of us. Joanne Lockwood: So sleep deprivation, you know, you mentioned Margaret Thatcher, potential dementia links. Sleep deprivation is a really bad thing, isn't it? It affects our whole wellbeing. Absolutely. Look, Stephen Jasper: sleep is one of the fundamental pillars of health, along with, you know, diet and exercise and, you know, connection or community, those sorts of things. Sleep is absolutely one of them. You cannot, you can go without a night of sleep. You can probably go for two nights at a pinch, but you will. Crunch. And we do need, you know, in the wild we needed to do that if, you know, sabre toothed tigers running around or something. Not a good time to have a nap. So we needed to have sleep like that. And it's interesting, horses need a lot less sleep than humans do. Horses sleep for less than three hours a night and they're very skittish, they wake up very quickly, but that's because they're prey. You know, for a lion, that's a meal, that's several meals. So that's why horses are so skittish in that they don't sleep much. And we have a big race here in Melbourne called the Melbourne cup every first Tuesday in November and horses are flown in from around the world. And there's. And this jet lag device is also a similar one, is used for horses. Their own blinkers they Joanne Lockwood: put on and. They'Ve got these blue light blinkers that Stephen Jasper: they, you know, it's a different shape because it's a horse face and there's a company that researches it and there's an academic, Barbara Murphy, who's dedicated her life to horse jet lag. She's at Kentucky, Kentucky, which is near the Kentucky Derby. So, no, that makes sense. But yeah, horse jet lag was her thing. So we've got probably the only PhD Joanne Lockwood: jet lag expert on the call right now. We're talking to you. And then we've got a unique person who's a horse jet lag expert somewhere in Kentucky and states another. Another pool of one person that's like a. It's fractal. You know, we're going sort of Stephen Jasper: jet lag in horses. So. Yeah. And somewhere out there there's probably jet Joanne Lockwood: lagging dolphins, jet lagging in sheep or something. Deprivation. Certainly, you know, they do look at Stephen Jasper: jet lag in animals because it's. But jet lag goes right down even to plants. You know, there are. Because plants have a circadian rhythm. That's when it was discovered. It was a mimosa plant that was put in a cupboard and it opened and closed its petals at the same time as it would have normally out the fields. Yeah, I'm certainly aware. Joanne Lockwood: I suppose I've pulled 36 hour on the, on the bounce. Sometimes, you know, in my IT days, get up at normal time, all the systems crash, you're there and all night and then you get to about 4 o' clock in the morning. There's no point in stopping now, we might as well just carry on. And you're there, everyone walks in, you're the heroes that got the system back up. And everyone gives you a round of applause. Your boss looks at you, wags his finger and says, you should go home to bed now. You go, hang on a minute. If we go to bed now, we've got to make sure everything's tested. And eventually they force you out about just after lunch, get home and then you're sort of like, you're wired, aren't you? You're kind of wired, all the adrenaline's kicked in. There's no way you can just drop to sleep all of a sudden crash, you say the adrenaline goes and you're out. And that's that Stephen Jasper: same response, you know, staying awake in case there's a Sabre tooth target. It's that, it's that biology kicking in. You're wired, you. And it's really funny. When I was doing my PhD and I was in the interview phase, so I interviewed 28 people who were working in biotechnology sector about their jet lag. That was the first phase. And then I did a survey and they kept coming up with the phrase running on adrenaline. Now I had a checklist of questions. Adrenaline wasn't in there. But multiple people kept using the phrase running on adrenaline. Oh, I've got to look into that. And this is something I found is that because, you know, east is worse than west for most people, but more people said that jet lag on return was worse than jet lag going out. Because when they go out that, you know, they'll fly to America or the uk. They are running on adrenaline. They've got to do this and do this and go here and go there and go to conference and speak and da, da, da, da, da. Right? Then they get back, they're in their routine, they're safe and all that exhaustion, bang hits them. And it takes a real toll on relationships because their partner, and especially if they've got kids, their partner who's been away is now absolutely useless. Can't drop the kids off at school, can't cook a meal, grumpy as, you know, bear with a sore head. That's a strain on relationships. And a lot of people get burnout and say, you know what, I'm just not going to do this anymore, I'm done. So, yeah, you raise a good point with running on adrenaline or caffeine and. Or Joanne Lockwood: caffeine. Yeah, caffeine and energy drinks. Caffeine and Stephen Jasper: sugar. No, but my big bugbear is alcohol. People are, oh, well, I'll just have a few drinks and go to sleep. Joanne Lockwood: If you have a lot of drink, it'll make you pass out. But a few drinks doesn't as wise. You know, when I travel, Stephen Jasper: I channel my Methodist preacher grandfather. About the only time lips that, lips that touch liquor will never touch mine. I do tomato juice and I remember being, I think it was Qatar and I ordered tomato juice. Oh, would you like some vodka in that? No, absolutely not. So alcohol is the worst thing you can partake of when you're travelling, you know, cross time zones and of course the airport lounge, it's free. And then on the plane it's free. You know, the temptation's there, but no, resist that. Yeah. The other problem I have is that if I've Joanne Lockwood: got something on my mind, I mean, okay, I have to get up early in the morning, you know, I can't sleep through. I can't sleep through. I can't sleep through. Some reason my brain either wakes me up at the right time or I just can't. I'm looking at the clock every 20 minutes, every 20 minutes. I just time slice in the entire night and eventually I have to wake up and I haven't slept at all. And it's. The brain just will not sleep on it. Yeah, no, I'm a big believer Stephen Jasper: in alarms. That seems to be the thing that works best for me. But speaking of alcohol, the effect of jet lag is similar to the effect of alcohol. So I ask people, would you go to work drunk if you don't Then why wouldn't you go? Why would you go to work? Jet lag, it's the same thing. Adding alcohol to that is like being twice as drunk. So Joanne Lockwood: that's a combination of time zone change and also sleep deprivation as well. So both those combinations. Yeah, it's impairing your Stephen Jasper: cognitive performance. Right. Jet lag has an effect on cognitive performance. We saw Joe Biden in the debate absolutely crash and burn and he attributed to that jet lag, and I believe that. And then after the election, he visited Angola and fell asleep in a meeting. Again, jet lag. And he flew. He'd flown east and, you know, in a dark room, bang, you fall asleep. And he's not a young man, let's be honest there. So is that why Trump Joanne Lockwood: actively says he doesn't like flying and travelling anywhere? He likes to stay in the us, that's why he says sends JD Vance everywhere. You know, can't trust himself to stay awake. Not a young man Stephen Jasper: either. And yes, the jet lag messes with you. He might go, you know what, just send JD out. And interestingly, JD's wife Usha travelled to Italy recently and cancelled a number of events there because of her jet lag. And again, that's flying east. And as we know, east is a beast, so we don't think of jet lag and the top echelons of politics. But yes, absolutely, Steve, it's been absolutely. Fascinating to learn about owls and fowls Joanne Lockwood: and east is the beast and west is best. Some brilliant, brilliant takeaways there. And fascinating to see your flashy glasses. If you're listening to this and you haven't got the video, track down the video somewhere and you can see the crazy glasses that Stephen was wearing there to shine that. So everyone, our viewers know what we're Stephen Jasper: talking about. There we go. Let me just screen hold them there, let me do Joanne Lockwood: a screen grab and they can. I can maybe put that in the thumbnail on the image. So there we are. I think so. I think this, Stephen Jasper: this is the thumbnail. I'll put that as your thumbnail Joanne Lockwood: for the please do show. So. Yeah, well, it's very Stephen Jasper: flattering. Yeah, I use that as the COVID. Glasses will be most appreciative. Yeah. So could people buy those on Joanne Lockwood: Amazon or are they specialist? They can buy them at my website. Just say that again. Stephen Jasper: Www.jetlagguy.com au.au Australia. Of course, I couldn't get the dot com on its own, so I've got the au. So there is another jet lag. Guys, have I Then, Joanne Lockwood: yeah. So that's, that's the website that's all about me Stephen Jasper: working on. Are you on LinkedIn and other platforms as well? Absolutely. On LinkedIn. Hit me up. I welcome pretty much everyone on LinkedIn. I'm receptive. So look for Dr. Stephen Jasper or the jet lag guy. You'll see me. I post quite a bit on LinkedIn. I've also got a Blue sky account because I don't use Twitter X. I just. No. And I have a YouTube channel and I've got two podcasts about jet lag because one isn't enough. You got a East one Joanne Lockwood: and a West one, have you? Well, we've got the. Stephen Jasper: As a chatty one. It's like this. It's a chat with me and another guy, Arthur Chan, and we just chance called Whatever Happened to Baby Jet Lag. That was the weirdest title I thought. Yeah, it's a memorable title. The other is a series where I interview thought leaders in this field. So I've got one coming up where I interview the inventor of these. So he talked about and he had false starts in this because they needed light and he thought, oh, let's try amber light. Amber did absolutely nothing though. So it's called ending Jet Lag. So I've got one with who's written a cookbook for the Circadian rhythm, so all that sort of thing. So. And I've also got some merch. I've got several books. So I've got a book called Jet Lag and it's written in user friendly language so you know, but there's a glossary for any technical terms. And I've got a children's book called Ben Flies to London. It's about little boy Ben living in Sydney who flies to London. And there's a companion colouring in book. So give some kids some pencils or crayon on a long flight, they're amused. It's a travel survival pack. Excellent, Stephen. Thank you. Thank you very much, Joanne. As we bring Joanne Lockwood: this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that choose challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.