---
title: "From Chaos To Calm"
episode: 182
date: 2025-11-07
guest: "Sally Bisbee"
canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/182-from-chaos-to-calm
audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-182/audio.mp3
---

# From Chaos To Calm

Joanne Lockwood is joined by Sally Bisbee, a Minnesota-based mum life simplification coach, to explore what it takes to move from daily overwhelm to a calmer, more sustainable rhythm in modern parenting. Sally shares how juggling children with a wide age gap pushed her into constant stress, and how simplifying routines, creating boundaries, and prioritising guilt-free self-care helped her reclaim a sense of ease. Together they dig into perfectionism, the never-ending to-do list, and the pressure many mothers feel to carry the full mental load. The conversation also looks at shared responsibility at home: why partners often aren’t mind readers, how clear communication can reduce resentment, and how letting go of “my way is the right way” can make delegation actually work. Joanne and Sally touch on shifting gender-role expectations, the importance of maintaining identity beyond parenting, and the added reality for some families of caring for ageing parents alongside raising children. Listeners will leave with practical, relatable ideas for reducing unnecessary stress, building supportive habits, and creating more breathing space for themselves and their families.

## Chapters

- 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome
- 01:30 — Inclusion Bites: Spark Change
- 05:40 — Balancing Parenthood and Personal Life
- 09:20 — Parenting Different Personalities
- 10:02 — Sibling Bonding Across Age Gap
- 15:35 — Sharing the Load as Mum
- 18:28 — Addressing Gender Roles at Home
- 20:21 — Mental Load of Motherhood
- 25:54 — Priorities Shift with Age
- 27:21 — Importance of Everyday Communication
- 32:39 — Simplifying Motherhood and Stress
- 35:21 — Prioritising Downtime and Balance
- 38:15 — Finding Time for Yourself
- 39:43 — Perspective Differences in Marriage
- 45:28 — Parenting, Growth, and Life Balance
- 47:24 — Balancing Motherhood and Ambitions
- 51:51 — Simplify Life, Manage Stress
- 54:44 — Join the Inclusion Journey

## Key takeaways

- The root causes of overwhelm in modern parenting and how societal expectations, social media, and generational norms shape daily stress.
- Techniques for identifying and prioritising what truly matters, enabling a shift from perfectionism to self-compassion.
- Strategies for effective communication within households, focusing on partnership, sharing the mental load, and reducing resentment.
- The significance of establishing and maintaining boundaries for self-care, including practical scheduling and delegation methods.
- Insight into how flexible routines, routines adapted for each household’s unique needs, can unlock regular moments of calm.
- The evolving nature of parental identity: how to remain more than ‘just a mum’ or ‘just a parent’ and model independence for children.
- Preparation for life transitions, including the ‘empty nest’ and ageing parent responsibilities, with tips on future-proofing family relationships and well-being.

## FAQs

### What is the main theme of this episode?

The episode "From Chaos to Calm" explores how overwhelmed parents, specifically mothers, can simplify their lives and reclaim a sense of calm amidst family chaos. The discussion centres on guilt-free self-care, the importance of routines, and practical strategies for managing competing demands from children, household responsibilities, careers, and personal ambitions.

### Who is the guest and what does she do?

The guest is Sally Bisbee, a mum life simplification coach based in Minnesota, USA. She specialises in helping overwhelmed mothers move from stress and chaos to a place of ease through routines, self-care and the delegation of household tasks.

### What personal experiences led Sally Bisbee to focus on life simplification for mums?

Sally Bisbee recounted her journey of parenting across two decades, with children aged 22, 9, and 6. Experiencing intense overwhelm after the birth of her youngest, she realised she was constantly behind before each day even began. She decided to redefine her approach, focusing on simplifying life, delegating responsibilities, and intentionally carving out time for herself.

### Why do mothers often struggle with overwhelm and self-care?

Both Sally Bisbee and Joanne Lockwood highlighted societal and internal pressures on mothers to “do it all,” ranging from household perfectionism to parental guilt. Social media amplifies unrealistic standards, and many mothers internalise the belief that prioritising themselves is selfish.

### Is the pressure mothers feel mostly self-imposed or external?

The episode revealed it is largely self-imposed but often rooted in cultural expectations and childhood modelling, such as witnessing previous generations where mothers were stay-at-home homemakers. While outside judgement exists, most pressure comes from mothers themselves striving for an ideal that is often unattainable in modern dual-income households.

### How important is communication in sharing the load at home?

Extremely important. Sally Bisbee discussed the necessity of open communication with partners to divvy up chores and responsibilities. She emphasised that many partners are willing to help, but clarity and regular discussions about needs and capacities are essential to avoid resentment and burnout.

## Transcript

Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world without Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 182 with the title From Chaos to Calm. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Sally Bisbee. Sally is a mum life simplification coach who helps overwhelmed mothers create calm through simple routines and guilt free self care. When I asked Sally to describe her superpower, she said that it is turning everyday overwhelm into empowering ease for busy mums. Hello Sally, welcome to the show. Hello.

Sally Bisbee: Thanks for having me. Absolute pleasure. And

Joanne Lockwood: from the accent, I can tell you not in the uk, so whereabouts in the world are you? I am not. I am in the United States. I live in

Sally Bisbee: Minnesota, which is. Which is in the central northern spot of the United States.

Joanne Lockwood: So the Canadian wall is just above. Is that. Yes, yes,

Sally Bisbee: we are. We. We live in south of Canada. Yeah. Wow.

Joanne Lockwood: I forget how big the states is. You know, six hours for me is a long way up the country. So. Yeah, you forget. Yeah,

Sally Bisbee: the states are very big. To get from, from Canada down to Mexico is probably, I would say 30 or 35 hours if you were to drive straight from top of Minnesota, the bottom of Texas. Yeah, I tried driving from

Joanne Lockwood: LA once down to San Diego and then from San Diego I ended up in Mexico. That took a long drive and I also tried to drive from LA to San Francisco and I gave up 3/4 of the way there. It was just too far. Just like. Sure, everything's much closer for you. There

Sally Bisbee: it is over in the uk it's much more contained.

Joanne Lockwood: So did you have a good Easter? We just come back for an Easter break, haven't we? Yes, yes, we had a wonderful Easter. We hosted and

Sally Bisbee: two, two of my three kids are young still six and nine, so they're in you Know, just the, like, Easter is so fun still. And yeah, it was a really great weekend. So

Joanne Lockwood: you've got, you just said there you've got two young, youngish children. They're not babies, but they're youngish. Yeah. Have you managed to reclaim your own calm? I have,

Sally Bisbee: I have. It's been a process, but I have, yeah. So what made you realise that maybe you

Joanne Lockwood: weren't calm, which meant you had to try to develop this way of helping other mums? Yes. So just a little

Sally Bisbee: background. So those. I have the two quote unquote younger kids, they're six and nine, so they're not little, little anymore. But my oldest, I have a third, she's 22, so big gap. I've been doing this mom thing for a long time and when my third came and she was about 2, I would say they were 2, 5 and 17. I just went through this period of time in my life where I was so overwhelmed. I woke up every morning just feeling like. Just overwhelmed and behind for the day already, before the day had even started. And I just finally thought, I can't, I can't keep living this way. Right. Like, I've got another 16 years of these kids for sure, being in my house. And probably more, as most of us moms of olders know, they. My. My oldest is about to graduate college and move home for a little bit, so they, they come back and I just thought, I can't. I can't keep living this way. And so I just decided to start making some changes in my own life and really just simplify my life. So it wasn't just a ball of stress all the time. And I just really wanted to be a present happy mom for my kids because I know that they deserve that I deserve that, all the things. So that really was kind of what started my journey of. Of my own stuff and then turned into. Into my passion for helping other moms do the same thing. Wow. Yeah. I mean,

Joanne Lockwood: our kids are. I say kids, they're not really kids anymore. They're. They're grown. They're grown people. Okay. Our daughter's in their 30s and our son's 30 as well. So, yeah, we went through the kid zone in the early 90s, so it's been a while. Sure. But I do remember because you think you've got your. You think you got it all together with the first one, you come out the first one, you kind of get used to it and they're two or three years old, as our daughter was, and suddenly you have the second One. You think, wow, this is a lot harder than I remember. Yeah, you forget quickly, don't you? You do, you do. Which I always laugh. That's why

Sally Bisbee: we have multiple kids. Because you do it, you get a couple years into it and you're like, oh, it's another one, another one spot. And then you add a couple more and you're like, oh my goodness. And you know, for me it was my, my husband and I are both, you know, one of the things that's always been important to us is that we, we keep our life outside of just being mom or dad. My husband is an avid fisherman and hunter and does his own thing, which I love. I am super social and so finding time with friends is super important. And I feel like when I was at that stage where I was like, so overwhelmed that like, the thought of finding time for myself was so hard. And it's just a common thing. I talk to many moms about, like, finding any time for themselves seems impossible. And I thought there's, you know, there's got to be a way because I'm not going to wait until these kids are 18 or, you know, even, you know, 15, when maybe life gets a little bit easier to like get back my own time in life. So it's been, it's been a fun journey figuring out how to find the calm amidst the chaos. Do you

Joanne Lockwood: think some of it is just the, the perfectionism in us that we want everything just right or I want the house tidy, I want my kids to look the part, I want to keep my schedule. I've got to maybe do some work. I've got to look after my partner or my partner's got to look after me. And we're going to try and try and box everything in and we end up overstressing ourselves. Is that, is that what's going on? Yes, a lot

Sally Bisbee: of it. So much of it. And you know, I'm myself, I'm a super type A person. I will say I'm less type A now that I have three kids. Because they do that to you, right? Okay. It's been, it's been a blessing of that. I will say that I've let go of a lot of my type A ness because you just realise that life doesn't happen the way that you want. You can plan, plan as much as you want and kids, you know, laugh at that. So. And I think, you know, all the things of societal norms and societal pressures and you know, now social media and you see all these picture perfect families and they got it all together and you're like, you know, I always tell people, like, people don't post the bad stuff. Like nobody, nobody has it all together. Right? They just don't. And so it's just finding, you know, finding what works for you. And, you know, when I talk to other moms, it's always about, you know, I always tell people it's not about having a perfect house or perfect life or everything cleaned up. It's about what works for you that keeps your stress level down and allows you to be that present mom. And, you know, I have the, you know, benefits of really. Everyone knows how fast time goes as the older we get, the faster time goes. And you know that. But with me having a 22 year old and then a 9 and a 6 year old, my, my youngest is in kindergarten and my oldest is weeks away from graduating from college. And so I have that big gap. And so it just has really given me that, like, perspective to really just be present to figure out, like, what do I need to do to simplify my life so I can really, like, be here to enjoy these little years before I blink in there. And they're actually out of the house. So there's such an age group

Joanne Lockwood: that they are effectively different generations. Millennial versus Gen Z. Yes. Or Gen Alpha even, I guess. Yeah.

Sally Bisbee: I don't even know what they are, but it's. Yeah, they're. There's 15 and a half years between my oldest and my youngest. So it's, it's a big gap, but. But it's also pretty awesome. You know, I always tell people, like, it wasn't if I would, if you would have asked me when I was, you know, teenager if this is how my life would be, I would say, no way. But it happens how it happened, and it's such a blessing. My oldest is super, super close with my two youngest. And just like watching the bond and I think as a parent too, you know, like having two, you go through that stuff with your first one and then you have a second one who you're like, wait, now the stuff that I, that worked for the first one doesn't work for the second one. And then for us, we threw in that third who's a total. I love her, but she throws everything out the wind. You're like, nothing is the same for you as it was for the other two. And so it's just a constant, like, game as a parent. Right. Figuring out what works and what works for this kid and what, you know, what, what does this kid need from Me and what, what do I need? And all those constant things we have to figure out. I was the eldest of three and my,

Joanne Lockwood: my youngest brother is six years younger than me. I would say it took us till I was in my late 30s, maybe 40s, to finally get on the same wavelength. Because when you were younger and you. I was in my 30s, even his 20s, or I was in my 20s, even in his teens. It's really hard to create relatable experiences, but once you get past about 35ish, then your experiences are kind of, kind of the same, aren't they? You've got the same sort of. You're a parent, you're married, you've got a house, you've got commitments, you've got all that sort of stuff. So is your, as your elders found the challenge of being not a surrogate mum, not a surrogate sort of babysitter and, you know, trying to resist that, I'll take over and give you freedom or something like that? Was it. Are they allowed to be themselves still? Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah.

Sally Bisbee: I mean, my oldest certainly helps. You know, Easter weekend, she happened to be home from college, so she babysat for us, which was wonderful. And we're very blessed to have that ability to have her do that. I also joke to people having little brother and sister is about the best form of birth control you can have. Because I'm like, this is real life. It is not cute baby cuddles and kisses all day long. It is, you know, kids that have their own opinions and don't always want to listen and, you know, are annoying at times. And I love them with all my heart. But kids are kids, right? It's, it's, it's fun. She gets to. Our oldest gets to see really like real life of like, what it's like in the throes of being a busy parent and, you know, they're, they're in sports and all those things that are. Our schedule is busy all the time. So she, she loves it and gets, you know, gets to love on them. She certainly is helpful for us, but she also gets to go do her own thing too. And she's old enough that if she needs a break and needs to get away from these kids, she can hop in her car and go do whatever she wants, which is great too.

Joanne Lockwood: So when you help other moms, how do they come to you? Are they already in burnout? They're already struggling to cope. What's the sort of things that normally triggers them to say, I need some help? Is it postpartum Is it. Is it all that? Yeah, I will say,

Sally Bisbee: you know, it's mostly. It's usually moms that have. Have been doing the mom thing for a little bit. So I really, you know, my kind of sweet spot is. Is midlife moms, moms that maybe aren't in the throat. You know, the throes of little, like a toddler and a baby are a lot, but. But it's all new and. And all that stuff. It's the moms that have, like, been doing it for a while and are like, something's gotta give, right? I can't. I can't keep going on living this way. One of the biggest things moms say to me is like, I never have enough time. I never have enough time. And I'm like, I get that. I get that. But I also like to tell people like, I. I own three businesses. I have three kids. I have a husband who's gone a lot because I let him go do his hunting and fishing and all his things he loves. And I still find time for myself every single day. I just have been intentional about carving out the time and really making my life to a part where taking care of myself comes naturally. And that wasn't easy for me. It took time. But it is those moms that are just like, something's got to give, and I can't keep going on this way of just feeling constantly overwhelmed and, you know, so it's just great to be able to. You know, so many of my moms that I've talked to are like, you know, it's just great to have somebody to talk to that, like, gives you permission that it's okay to take care of yourself. I think as moms, we all know, like, we're supposed to take care of ourselves, and, yes, we need to, but moms are so good at pouring their all into their kids and their family that we so often forget to take care of ourselves and put our own needs first. And I always tell people, as cliche as it sounds, you know, you can't. You can't pour from an empty cup, right? Like, we. We have to take care of ourselves first. And when we do that, we're better able to care for our kids and our spouse and all those around us that we love. And I just love being able to help moms see that and realise that they're worth that. Is that the kind of biological imperative, if you like the

Joanne Lockwood: nature of being a mum, that you have to be that the person that takes all of the weight of the family on their shoulders and feels they're a failure if they leave a dirty plate or if they. The child isn't self pressure. Often people often are. Well, I suppose you do get judged by others, don't you? You're a bad parent, you're a bad mum, you're whatever I don't want to be. I don't want my friends to think I'm a bad bum. So you're all these pressures there all the time, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. And I mean

Sally Bisbee: I think it's so much self pressure, I think, I mean I think that self. Sometimes there's judgement from people. I also tell people, you know, at my age, which most of the moms I hang around, I'm 44, I don't mind saying that. But you know, being this age, you kind of get to that point where you're like, I don't, I don't care what other people think. Like if, if you're going to judge me, that's on you. But it is, it is just that pressure of, you know, moms want to. We feel like we need to pour in our everything to the kids, we got to take care of them, we have to. It has to be perfect. It has to. And you know, it. It took me a long time to get to this point where I am now, but it really is in the last five or so years that I was like, wait, I have a husband who's amazing. My husband is amazing. I love him, he's a wonderful guy. But he's a guy and he doesn't. Things don't click the same as as a mom. I think there's this difference of how men and women are wired, of how we think and care for people. But he's very willing to help. And one of the things I finally realised that he and I sat down and had a big talk about was like, this is our family and this is our house and why, why am I doing so much of this stuff and he's not? And because. And it wasn't that he didn't want to, it was just that I did it all because as a mom I think we just feel like we need to do the laundry and the dishes and all the things. I need to start passing off some of that stuff to my husband who was very willing to help. And so that's another thing I really help moms with is just seeing that need that we feel like we need to do. It all is on us. And the only person who can change that is also us. And we need to, you know, ask for help and delegate and simple things like my husband now does the dishes every single day, I do all the laundry, but he puts all the laundry away and just divvying up those things to realise that even though there's still those things of like, you feel as a mom that you should be doing it all and you should be able to do it all, it's like, well, it's not realistic. How do you work full time, care for the kids, keep up on the house, find time for yourself? Like, it's just, it's not realistic to do it all. So I think learning to let go of some of that need of perfection and needing to do it all is, is the biggest move moms can take to really better their lives. You

Joanne Lockwood: said, you said your age. So I'm not outing you from an age. No, I'm

Sally Bisbee: totally open. I'm 60. I'm 60. So awesome. I grew up, I grew up in

Joanne Lockwood: a world where my mum was a stay at home, full time mother, homemaker. Me too. And so we've been brought up in an era where that's kind of the, the plan and the expectation, but the realism today and probably many of the mums you, you help have also grown up in a world where mums were full time mums, stay at home homemakers. So that's not the reality anymore is that we need to have dual incomes. We need, and also, even if we don't need the money, we want a different passion and purpose. We want our own lives, we want our own careers. So we're trying, we're trying to have everything. We're trying to have our own life, our own passion, our own careers, our own friends and be an amazing mum. That's where the best, where the conflict happens, isn't it? Yeah, so much. Yes.

Sally Bisbee: And I think, I mean that is a huge thing. I was, my mom was a stay at home mom and my dad owned a business and worked crazy hours and all that stuff. And so I look at like, well my, my mom did it all. She cooked and cleaned and made, you know, did the laundry and brought us to school and all those things where my dad worked and made the money and you know, now it is, it's a, it's a different world. And I always laugh like I'm, I'm the least feminist person there is. I'm all about girls having strength and doing their own thing. But I, but I think that there's, there's just that difference now too of women are out there and we work and we have our own passions and all that stuff. And I think that there is a big rewiring that needs to happen in our brains to know that when you're both working, why is, why is it that you both work full time, but then all this stuff still falls on the mom, right? And I think again, a lot of us is that we just do it. Like, I look at, you know, mine and my husband's relationship, and I think, well, why would he think he needs to do X, Y, Z? Because I just automatically do it. And so he doesn't want to step on my toes because he knows I already do that. Well, he's not going to do it unless if I ask or mention, like, hey, it'd be super great if you could start emptying the dishwasher every day. He's like, oh, I'd be happy to do that if that's what, you know, that's what would help. Like, great. You know, he's so great about it. But I think just. We just do. We feel that, like, well, our moms did it all, we should be able to do it all, but we forget that factor in that, like, our moms were not working full time while also doing it all. Right,

Joanne Lockwood: so do you think part of the problem for that is a failure to communicate with your. Your partner, your husband, your wife, and actually saying, this is how I feel. This is where I am right now. And often when you have this communication, you must go, what if what you said? And then you expect the other person to be a mind reader and it's, why didn't you just step in? Well, I thought you were coping, etc. Yes. Oh,

Sally Bisbee: a hundred percent, 100%. I find that with many of the moms that I talk to, I know it was something for my husband and I for a long time. Communication is a huge thing. And, you know, I always tell people, my husband and I sit down once every a few months, four or five months. We'll just sit down and have a real come to Jesus talk. Here's where I'm at. Here's what I'm feeling. And, you know, we've talked a lot about just the differences of, you know, we hear a lot about it these days, the mental load of motherhood and what we take on. And I say, you know what? At any given time, my brain is going with a million things. What do the kids have? What do they now in, you know, in Minnesota, it's almost summer, so it's like, oh, do they have all their Summer clothes because we switched from snow to kneading shorts. So do they have clothes? What sports do they have? What? You know, all those things constantly going through my brain that my husband does not have going through his brain on any given day. And so just sitting down and having those talks with my husband has been very helpful of, like, hey, I'm just going to download and tell you a little bit of, like, what is constantly going through my head. And here's some things that would be super helpful if you could take off my plate, because I'm already doing all these things. I have this. And he's like, great, that's great. And, you know, at our house, I always laugh like, I'm super type A, so I like things done a certain way. So my husband, who's very, like, laid back and go with the flow, he also. It's always a game of, like, you know, he doesn't want to, like, step in and do something that I might be like, oh, you didn't do that, right, honey? Which I've also learned to let go of a lot of. But, you know, just finding that communication. And I do I really talk to moms about, you know, does your. Does your spouse even know how you feel? Do they know that you're doing all this? Your husband might work full time, you might work full time, but why are you working full time coming home and doing all the stuff with the kids and all the stuff for the house while your husband comes home and doesn't do that? Like, does. Does he even know how you feel? And they're like, well, he should. And you're like, well, have you talked about it? Like, yeah. And, you know, I always look back to. I had. I had a friend years ago that she used to get mad that her boyfriend didn't just know what she wanted. And I was like, okay, well, here's. Here's what you can look at. You can say, I'm bummed that he didn't just read my mind, which he's not going to do, or you could tell him what you need, and then. And then if he doesn't do something with it, then you. Then you have a right to be bummed about that. Right? If you tell them your needs and they're not being met, then you could be sad. But I'm like, isn't it just easier to say, like, here's what I would love if. If you could help with. Or here's what I'd love if you could do. And then they do it, Then you're Like, great. That works great yourself. Yeah. I think there's

Joanne Lockwood: also a, I think we touched on it is a desire not to step on the other person's toes. You know, if you've got a routine, if you, if you go and do it your way, as you say, you're a type a person, you go, actually, you've done really good. But I'm, I'm now stressing because that's not the way I would have done it. Yes. Yeah. You haven't quite dressed the children in the way I would address them. I wouldn't have put those socks on them, you know, so suddenly you're, you're inheriting more stress because you want to control the plan, don't you? Yes. And I think, you know,

Sally Bisbee: one of the things that, that I learned so a little, little also backstory to me. I was a single mom. I had my oldest my senior year of College. I was 22 when my oldest was born and oops as I hit my mic. And we got married when My daughter was 11. And so I was a single mom for many years. And then my husband came in and he adopted my daughter and we had two more. And it's, it's all awesome and great, but it was, I was very set in my ways and used to being it just my daughter and I, so everything was my way. And then he came in and I had to learn how to parent more kids with having a spouse. And so it was a thing. And so one of the big things for me that I constantly remind myself of is he's not doing it wrong. He just does it different than I do, which doesn't make it wrong. You know, he, he puts away all the laundry and still to this day, bless his heart, I love him. He puts some of my daughter's clothes in the wrong drawers. And she's six, so she calls them out on it every time. She's like, dad, why are my pyjamas in my T shirt drawer? And I was like, hey, like he's putting clothes away and mom's happy about it. So just, just switch it. It's all right. You can fix it. You know where they go. So I think just, you know, again, the type A ness. I think as a mom or as a parent or grown up or anything, like just learning to let go of some of that. That once you have kids and a spouse, like, things are not going to be 100% your way anymore. And the greatest thing you can do is just learn how to let go of some of that need to have it all be perfect or just your way and know that if you're going to ask for help, you're going to have to be okay with it being done. Maybe a little bit different way than you would do it. Yeah, completely. Completely. Yeah. I was just

Joanne Lockwood: thinking there that, you know, it is this sort of not wanting to overstep or not fully understanding what the other person's doing, feeling the other person's in control when really their feet are flapping under the water. They just look like a calm swan on top of the water. So yeah, it's a challenge. And I guess again, without putting words into your mouth, you get 40s and your body changes again, doesn't it? And you have other needs and other challenges with perimenopause, menopause, which also affects how you interact with each other as husband and wife or even the children. Yeah. And that's another dynamic that people don't realise that when it hits you it really changes dynamics between people. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I will say I'm lucky enough

Sally Bisbee: that I knock on wood somewhere. I haven't experienced a lot of that yet. I'm like super careful that I won't. But it is at my age it is talked about all the time. All my girlfriends talk about it. So it's a very common topic of conversation at this age. But for sure, stuff, stuff changes. And I think even just you know, outside of that, I think, you know, constantly as you grow in age, right. Stuff just changes in life. You realise what your priorities are and where your time and energy should be and stuff that mattered to you in your 20 or 30s maybe doesn't matter as much in your 40s. You know, I always tell people like I've always been a person that I haven't, I've never super cared a lot what people think. Like I'm not, I'm not affected by like, I don't need to wear name brand things to be cool or any of that stuff. I want people to like me and you know, those common things. But I think something about turning 40 was a really like eye opener to me of like, you know what? This is my life. Like I, I don't need to live for somebody else. I need to live for me and what makes me happy and what works for me and my family and just really, you know, living that life that like works for me, what, how I live my life might not work for somebody else. And I understand that, you know, a lot of my friends, I've been with my husband for 14 years and he is gone a lot. Hunting and fishing and people like, how, how do you do that? How do you let him be gone? I was like, oh, that's actually why I married him. Like, I love that he has a passion that like, lights his fire. Like, lights his soul on fire. Like, he loves that and it makes him so happy. And I love having like, I'm super independent, so I like having that me time or just time with the kids to go do what I want, but just really, you know, doing what works for you. Right? And. But back to that communication with spouse. I think that, that, that is a huge thing for every aspect of life, really is, you know, letting them know what's going on, what are you feeling, what, you know, and it doesn't have to be a big sit down, one hour deep conversation. It can just be those, you know, my husband and I have gotten really good of. You know, we try to have family dinner as often as we can and just really like, how was your day? What's going on? You know, is there anything you need from me? Just having those simple conversations really is, is a game changer. And not only parenting, but, you know, that whole effective marriage thing and making sure that, you know, I always tell my husband, I'm like, I'm only doing this once, so we're gonna, you know, make sure this works forever. And I'd like to still like you when the kids get out of the house. So having that communication is a big thing.

Joanne Lockwood: It is. And I, I remember when our, our son, the last of our two to leave and move out, even though he was 25, I think 22, 23, 24, 25. He was quite a, an adult when he left. So there's still, there's still a kind of an emptiness in the. We had an apartment at the time. My wife not worrying about buying him pies for his food or not having to strip his bed, or not having to this, that and the other. There's a whole load of things you realise you're just not doing and then you're sitting there watching telly in the evening and you feel. Even though he never spend time with us, he was always playing on his Xbox, his Game Boy or something in his room, does not start having his heartbeat. Yeah. 10Ft away from you. Just. There's a real emptiness. And it took us longer than we thought. It was a sadness. It was just. You just feel that lack of human vibration, don't you? Or the energy. For sure. Yeah. Definitely

Sally Bisbee: a readjustment. And I think you know, I think that's one of my big things, too, of something I really work with moms with right now is. Is remembering that you are something outside of being a mom. A mom is part of you, but it's not who you are. It's part of your identity, but it's not your whole identity. And I think so often as moms, we get so lost in. We're a mom, and we have to do all the mom things, and we have to. And, you know, that's great. And it's a season of our life, a long season. Right. But you also want to remember who you are so that when they do finally leave the house, that you remember who you are and what you like outside of that. And then I also think that whole thing, you know, with your spouse, like, that's something big I talk to people about. And, you know, one of my big things, my. My parents are a week away, eight days, I think, but a week away from selling. Celebrating their 48th wedding anniversary, which is so amazing. And they have a great marriage. They love each other. It's, you know, far from perfect. I mean, they certainly have had moments, you know, 48 years with the same person. Yeah, you butt heads at times, right? But I just always tell my mom, like, I. I want that. I want to make sure, like, you know, my parents, they work together, they live together, all those things, they really enjoy each other's company. And I really want that for my husband and I, you know, we. We really do still enjoy each other's company. But I think that's such a hard thing in the. When you're in the depths, like the throes of parenting and little kids and stuff, that sometimes that. That marriage part gets so pushed on the back burner, and you're like, well, then. Then what happens when those kids are out and you are finding your footing again, right, with that. And, like, if you can figure out now how to make sure and nurture that marriage and that have that open communication and all those things. I think it's such a benefit to setting yourself up for when those kids leave. I mean, I think you'll still miss them, right? Because that's just. That's just something, having them not in your house anymore and not there to just check in on every single day. But I think those things are such. Such important things to remember, to really remember when you're in the depths of. Of the parenting, in the little years, to really keep on top of that stuff. So you're good to go when they do Move out finally. Well, I

Joanne Lockwood: think I've noticed, you know, in my life, as I say, I've 60, I've had. I've had a fair bit of 23 years of being an adult, I suppose. 43 years of being an adult. No, 60. Oh, God. A long time being an adult. I've even lost it. I can't work it out. 43 years of being an adult. Yeah. Anyway, a long time. I forgot what I was gonna say now. Blimey, I'm having that senior moment, so. Yeah, well, I think what I've learned, what I've learned over those years is you don't realise how full you are until you. And until you allow the load to come off. Because sometimes you're so over capacity, you're 20%, 30%, 40% over capacity, reducing by 5%, you're still over capacity. So sometimes you got to strip right back to realise how busy you actually were. And that's the challenge, isn't it? Because we got to let go of stuff to realise that we have to let go of stuff. And I remember doing some coaching with a person in business saying that they were trying to carve out time. They had their boss demanding this, they put people putting stuff in their diary. This, that and the other. I said, you need to create this firebreak where you can actually take control of your schedule. If you can't do that, you can never see what's really going through your head at any one time.

Sally Bisbee: So important. And that, I mean, that's a big thing that I did in my own life. And now I help other moms figure out, you know, my, my whole thing is how, how to simplify your life as a mom, as a parent, for sure. But as a mom, like, there's there's so much stuff that we take on and there's so much unnecessary stuff we take on. You know, I always tell people, like, what. What are the things causing you stress? And what, what can you a do about them? What can you let go of? I mean, you know, his joke. As, as silly as it is, laundry is one of the things that gets talked about the most. You're like, okay, could you. I mean, sure, in a dream world, could you like pay somebody else to do your laundry? Sure. But not many people do that. And I, you know, know whatever. But I think, you know, for me it's a lot of. It's acceptance. Right. The laundry is always going to be there. So figure out a system. You know, for me, I do one load of laundry every day. That way I don't spend my weekends doing laundry. I just keep on top of it. Again, my husband puts away the laundry. So that's a big thing of like learning, okay, I can wash it, dry it, fold it. He puts it away. It's great, it's done. I think acceptance of some of those things, like, okay, this is the stage of life I'm in. There's a lot of laundry. I gotta do it, move on. But also things like schedule and stuff. I look at a lot of people who just have crazy busy schedules. And I think as a mom too, we think that, that, that busyness, constantly being busy is like a sign of like, we got this, we're doing this. And you're like, no, like, where's. Where's the white space in your life? Right? We have to create those. Those down moments and having that space that we can take care of ourself and have those moments to breathe and, you know, not over committing to things is such a huge thing. And then

Joanne Lockwood: suddenly the kids get a bit older. You become a soccer mom, you become a. A base, a basketball mom or whatever. You're suddenly traipsing around, driving them here, driving them there. Yes. And all the extracurricular mum stuff or dad stuff. Dad's. Dad did some of it as well. But, yeah, you suddenly take on label, don't you?

Sally Bisbee: Yes. Yeah. And I mean, you know, that's great too. I mean, I look at. We. We grew up, you know, in. In Minnesota, hockey is a big thing. So my older and younger brother both played hockey. I actually played hockey real briefly. Turns out I'm not super competitive. So it wasn't. I love the game, but not the competitiveness of it. But, you know, my. My parents were hockey parents and they're like, best friends were all hockey parents, and they love that. And so I don't think, you know, having those new identities is ever a bad. Doesn't have to be a bad thing. But it's. I think it's just important to, you know, I look at some of. I have friends that have, you know, kids that are in five sports at a time. And you're like, how do you have a moment for yourself or your marriage or anything when you are just constantly running kids to sports all the time, you know, So I think that sometimes it's important to look too of like, okay, what's our capacity for? Okay, our kids can do two sports at once because the schedules. The schedules work. And, and maybe volunteering for the event that you really want to volunteer for is just not in the books right now because of knowing your capacity and needing some of that just space to have some downtime in your life. I think is. Is such a important thing for, for us to remember just to. To not over schedule ourselves. I'm gonna say mums

Joanne Lockwood: come to you. You know, when parents come to you. It doesn't have to be. Could be a dad, it could be a mum, it could be someone. However you want to describe yourself. What do they really want to do that they haven't got time for? Because you said at the beginning, they come because they haven't got time. I haven't got time. I've got time. Time for me is always about priority. So what, what can't they prioritise in their life? What's the biggest thing that go, I want time to do this. What is it? Yeah, I don't know that I have an answer for that. I

Sally Bisbee: mean, it's definitely that. There's never enough time to get everything done. You know, it's. I have this to do list and I can never get through it. And then I also know that I'm supposed to fit in self care and people are like, I don't. I can't even imagine the last time that I've taken, you know, a day for myself. I always. I always laugh. One of my former life coaching clients came to me and she was. She was working crazy hours. Her husband is. Oh, okay, there's one of those. Sorry, someone's at the door. I thought I wouldn't be bothered at. All, but that's

Joanne Lockwood: okay. Okay. We're all right. I thought it was. I thought it was my husband.

Sally Bisbee: It's. It's not. Some. Somebody dropped. We're just talk. We're just

Joanne Lockwood: talking about him. It's okay. Don't worry. It's fine. I also run a craft business,

Sally Bisbee: so people drop stuff off when my friend stops. So that is what that is. Um, my former coaching client, her husband was a fire chief, so he worked, you know, 24 hour shifts and he was gone a lot. She was working crazy hours. And. And so one of the things really was just that teaching her to put better boundaries around her time and what she spent it on and all that stuff. And so I really encouraged her to just. I'm like, find one night that you can go to dinner with a girlfriend. And she's like, I just. I don't like that sounds hard. I'm like, okay, like, let's just. Just one night, you know, Two hours. It doesn't even have to be at bedtime. And like a week later she sent me a text and said, I, I just booked a trip, we're going to Florida. So instead of just a one night dinner, she booked a like four day girls trip. Which was great, but really just like being intentional of, of finding that time, I think is, I think finding time for yourself is, is one of the biggest things that moms come to me with of like, like I can't stay on top of everything I'm supposed to do. Raising the kids and laundry and keeping the house clean and decluttering and all the things, much less find time for myself. So it's super fun just to be able to walk alongside moms and be like, okay, I can look at your life from an outside view and be like, tell me what you have going on. And here you know, why, like explain to me, you know, what's, what's the importance of why you're putting your time in over here and, and them seeing like, maybe that's not where I should be putting my time. And that's right, I could gain back some time and actually use that time for something I love that refreshes me and fills me up again. Go back to I mentioned earlier, is it, is it nature or nurture or

Joanne Lockwood: just being a mum? I read something somewhere, a magazine or online or something popped up and it talked about when, when a woman sees a bit of mess in the toilet, they immediately go, germs must clean it. It has to be down now, now, now. A man goes, it's all right, it's fine, it'll keep. And so is there a different sense of urgency? And again, I don't want to stereotype here. I'm not trying to say that men are this and women are this, but is that sometimes what happens where your husband, a man may not see the problem, but a woman, the mom sees it and thinks I have to do that now. 100%.

Sally Bisbee: I mean there just is, I think there is just, there's just a difference on how people see it. And you know, again, I think that that's something I love about being married to my husband, is that I try sometimes to see it through his eyes. I'm like, okay, why do I like feel that? Like, oh, it like works me up and it has to be done now where, where he can just like look at it and walk by and it doesn't bother him. I'm like, like I would give anything to like not be bothered by some of those things. Like that's, that's an amazing thing to have, but I do. I just think that, you know, I think each. You know, and maybe man and woman, but also just each person I think is bothered differently. I have. I have a real good girlfriend who is not type A, and her house is messy. Every time I go there and I walk in and she's like, oh, you. You must just judge me every time you walk in here. And I'm like, honestly, I don't. I said, part of me is honestly jealous that you can live like this. Because she's just accepted that that's how her life is. She's got two boys, they're busy. She's just accepted and she's okay with it. I'm like, I physically couldn't do this. Like, my skin would crawl. Like, it just. The feeling inside me is so horrible that I couldn't do it. But it. But because I'm so type A, I can't imagine being so type B that you could just be okay with the mass. And I think, you know, that's. I have a degree in psychology because I love how the brain is wired and how everyone thinks differently and does things differently. And it just fascinates me in that sense of like, everyone does things differently. And just because, I mean, my house is always sparkling clean at all times. And I've accepted that that's okay. That's. That's how I want it. And it's not because I feel like it needs to be like that or I think that that makes me better or anything. It's just what makes me happy, and it's how I like it. But I don't ever expect that from anybody else. You know, I think it's for self. You know, when I.

Joanne Lockwood: When I talk to my wife about things sometimes, or she talks back to me or whatever, if I was to say to her, it's okay, just leave it, let it go. What that's not doing is understanding her imperatives. Me saying, let that go, leave it, don't worry about it, doesn't reduce the stress levels, doesn't reduce the anxiety, doesn't. So what we're trying to do here really is when you talk about how to simplify someone's life or overcome the overwhelm it's trying to de. Trigger some of these things that create this high level of anxiety in people. Is that. Is that what you make them more manageable? Yes. Yeah, definitely.

Sally Bisbee: Definitely. And I think, you know, again, like I said, I think for me, helping people figure out how. How to let go of some of it, you know, it's hard. I think some of it is just naturally how we're wired. Right? Something that bothers me might not bother you. And, and so I mean that again, that's a great example. What you just said about you and your wife is that that's something for my husband and I that we've talked about. Like, I get this doesn't bother you, but it does bother me. And so how, how can we find like a middle ground where, like, just because it's my thing and it's not your thing doesn't mean it has to go my way. Because if it doesn't bother you, then, you know, it's finding that middle ground. But also, I think, understanding and, you know, I. It's just a constant, right? It's a constant ebb and flow of what, what works and figuring it all out. I think

Joanne Lockwood: you said it earlier, it's trying to learn what matters to the other person, what doesn't matter. The other person, what needs to be a big deal and really what doesn't. If you, if you want to load the dishwasher your way, it still washes the dishes. It doesn't matter if the glasses aren't all the right way up and the spoons are in the correct way order. And it doesn't matter. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. So it's not taking on the, the extra anxiety of trying to fit the other person into your definition of right and wrong as well, isn't it? Yes. That. That is huge. One of my

Sally Bisbee: favourite lines, my mom has always told me, is pick your battles. Which is a lot about the kids, but, but also with, with the spouse too, right? She, early on to being married, she said to me, pick your battles. Figure out, figure out the things that matter to you that like, yep, you really want things done this way because of xyz. And let him know and make sure he's on the same page. Other things, the dishwasher per se, not being loaded correctly, Let it go. The dishes are being cleaned. I'm not doing it. It took it off my plate. Great, right? And so that is one of those things that I really learned and I try to help other people see that too. Like just because they do it differently or not the same way. You know, people say, oh, like I asked him to wash towels and he washed them, but he folded them wrong. And you're like, well, it's, it's a towel. Is it clean and put away in the linen closet? They're like, yeah. And you're like, then it, it shouldn't matter. Right. Like if that's where your energy is going, then we probably have bigger issues that we need to work on of figuring out where, where is your stress and anxiety being focused on. I just, you know, better ways to spend your energy than being upset that something like that isn't done correct correctly. Yeah. One of the things I

Joanne Lockwood: often say to people is you in a marriage you can't always be right and happy. Sometimes they're incompatible. So you don't. Once you realise you don't have to be right. Yeah, you can be, you can be a lot happier for sure. Yeah. I mean it is, it's. It's

Sally Bisbee: that constant ebb and flow and compromising and figuring all those things out and makes it run a lot smoother when you can figure that part out for sure. Do you think you're obviously got kids of different ages,

Joanne Lockwood: children of different ages. Do you think they're learning a new way as pre parents? Maybe they'll be parents one day in their life. Are you bringing them up in a way that teaches the skills you're talking about now? I hope so. I hope so. I mean

Sally Bisbee: that is a big thing. Somebody once said to me, I can't remember exactly but you know, it's our job to raise our kids not to stay home but to, you know, to spread their wings and fly right to. The thing is you want them to leave the house and be good people in the world. And I think, you know, it's fun Talking to my 22 year old just the things that she sees. You know, like I said, I, I run three businesses. I have my, my coaching business and organising business and a crafting business and so I'm busy all the time but I, I run three businesses and do a lot of the mom stuff but just, just showing her, you know, she'll say, you know and, and I actually for the last eight years I just recently retired from this. I ran an in home daycare so that I could be home with my little kids and be the ones to raise them. And you know, I always. She knows and the little kids will know eventually. Like wasn't ever my dream to be a daycare lady. Like that wasn't grow up and be a daycare lady but it wasn't my dream to be a mom and to be able to be with them but also to still to earn that income and have money and those things. And so I think showing these kids that and also that my husband is so involved and stuff, you know, my dad is an Amazing man. And I love him and I'm still super close to him, but he was, he worked 70 hours a week, six days a week. Like, we didn't see him much as a kid because he was the, he was the breadwinner. My mom stayed home and did the stuff with us and growing, you know, raising these kids in a family that they see like, dad is home and dad does stuff. And like when I leave and go have my girls night with my friends, dad isn't babysitting. You know, that's one of those, like when people say that, oh, my husband's babysitting, you're like, it's not babysitting when it's your own kids. Right? Like, nope, he's just home with his kids. Much like parenting. Parenting for sure. And so, you know, I love that my kids get to see that, that dad gets to go do his thing. Mom does her thing. We have life outside of them. We both work. You know, I am running these businesses on my own, following my dream and my passion and all that. And so just showing them all those things is just such a cool thing. And so I do, I think that they're going to grow up in a, in a different way that we, that you and I especially were raised with. Having stay at home moms will forever be grateful that I had that and love that my mom was a stay at home mom. And as much of why I run my own businesses is because I want to be able to be home still and be here for my kids. But I love that they get to see that me being a mom didn't mean that I got to give up on my, on my dreams and my passions just because I was a mom. So I'm glad they get to see that for sure. Talk about

Joanne Lockwood: raised by our mums. I was just also thinking there that I'm now hitting that sandwich generation. You know, where I'm now. Look now, both my wife and I, we're now becoming more responsible for our parents. My wife lost her mother two years ago. I lost my father three, three months ago. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. They, they had a fantastic life. They, they didn't suffer. They, they were, they were old. They part, they passed when they were old. They had a good life. And my wife's father at the moment is, he's 92. Wow. And he's, he's, he's, he'S a fantastic 92. But he's just getting to the point now where he spent some time in hospital. Yeah. We almost have Our own parking spot accident in emergency. The ed. Yeah. Or we, we hear in the car park again we go, oh yeah. We're back to our overnight hotel where he's, he's in the bed, we're sitting in the chairs waiting all night to be seen. And my, my, my mum's a few years younger so she's quite, she's 86 and a good 86, I love it. But we're recognising that we've now got to go back through that parental cycle because we're now having to manage our parents not as if they're baby children, but they, they need help, support, worry and also you need to persuade them to do the right thing, to get it right, to regard themselves. And persuading our father in law to stop driving was a real challenge because a proud man. I can still drive. It's when he says it's okay, I take it really, really careful when I'm driving. I thought you should be taking it really, really careful anyway when you're driving. Not so. So fortunately, fortunately he decided on his own. Okay, good, stop driving. He got to the point where I think he'd had a fall and he didn't drive for about a month and he went to try and drive. He said, I've realised now, having not driven for a month, I can't. Here's my licence. But so yeah, we sold his car and it was fine. So yeah, it's. You become a parent again, don't you?

Sally Bisbee: Yeah, yeah, I, I'm not there yet, thank God. But I can only imagine that, that, that, that's just a whole thing, right? You gotta watch out for them and care for them and there's a way more fine line there because like you said, I mean those things of like you can't be driving, you shouldn't be driving anymore. But to tell a grown adult that, I mean, I always think like I don't ever want to be told that ever. But you know, eventually I, I hope I'm blessed enough to get there, you know, 92 years, that's. That's awesome, right? To be afforded that. You got to live a great life that long. Like great. But yeah, that's a whole new, a whole new responsibility.

Joanne Lockwood: It's completely different conversations, you know, you go around, they're making sure they've eaten properly, checking on their food in the fridge, is there anything mouldy in the cupboard? It's like, it's like in some respects it's like dealing with a two year old again in some Respects. It's like dealing with a teenager again because they're petulant, they're fighting back, they go angsty about the whole thing, don't want to be told. Sometimes they're just, they just need to be treated like a child. So it's, you know, think about your simplification coach. I'm guessing that some of your, your mum. Mum friends are about to hit that part of their life as well. You know, got kids, got menopause, got elderly parents. But nobody trained you to be an elderly parent carer. Because when you're, you're going through your pregnancy, when you're going through starting a family, everybody's got the manuals, the books, the tools, the antenatal classes, scans. When parents suddenly become old, there's no guidebook. People just go, wow, it is what it is. And then you find that social services, support services are just. You have to fight for everything. It's like a nightmare. Yeah,

Sally Bisbee: yeah, it's. Yeah, that's a whole new, A whole new thing that I'm not super versed in experience yet or. No, but, yeah, whole, whole new thing. But I will say if you simplify your life and get rid of that, you know, I always tell people, like one of my big things just in the overall thing is when you simplify your life and get rid of any unnecessary stresses, when new stresses come up, then the thing is you can just focus on that new stress and you don't also have to focus on that new stress along with all the other stresses. Right. When you, when you have all those other things figured out and taken care of, then, then you're able to just deal with that new stress of figuring out how to navigate that, the ageing parents or whatever, without also having 80 other stresses still in your life.

Joanne Lockwood: I think that's important. You're right, because when we, when we speak from a position of stress, the wrong brain chemicals are flowing. We're not in our prefrontal cortex, we're not calm, we're often not completely rational. So sometimes it's being able to step back because some of the stresses come from our employer, the environment, society, not just the children or the husband. So being able to say how I feel to others, that's a really good technique to learn, isn't it? Yes. Such a good one,

Sally Bisbee: Sally. It's been absolutely fascinating. I mean, we could do a volume two on. And

Joanne Lockwood: I'll. You can, you can interview me on, on elderly parents with my, my new special subject. I love it. How do people get ahold of you. How do people get hold of you? Um, sure. So my website

Sally Bisbee: is simply sallyco.com you can find me on Facebook or Instagram at Simply Sally Coaching. And that's, that's where I'm at. And you're Sally

Joanne Lockwood: Bisbee. Sally Bisbee. Are you on Instagram, places like that? Yeah, the, the Simply Sally Coaching is my

Sally Bisbee: Instagram and Facebook. Both of those and Facebook. Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Joanne Lockwood: So people want to Google you, track you down, search for you. Yes. Wave, say hi. Like a few of your posts. Yeah, I would love that. Do you do kind of a bit of ad hoc messenger support type stuff? So if someone's having a bit of burnout struggle, can you give them a bit of. A. Bit of a bit of a sample coach over the. Over the dms? Sure. Yes. If someone wants to message me.

Sally Bisbee: Yep. And I've got free free resources on my website. Different, you know, time saving hacks and just different things like that. I host free workshops every once in a while for people to hop on and learn different. Just ways to get more time in your life and different things like that. So awesome to check out Sally. It's been a blast. It's been lovely to

Joanne Lockwood: talk to you for just over an hour, so thank you so much. Yes, thank

Sally Bisbee: you so much for having me. It's been great chatting with you too.

Joanne Lockwood: As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to, to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. Today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and let's make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.