--- title: "Beyond Reflection, Towards Belonging" episode: 181 date: 2025-10-31 guest: "Gillian Russell" canonical: https://inclusionbites.co.uk/podcast/181-beyond-reflection-towards-belonging audio: https://cdn.seech.uk/podcast/episodes/ibs-181/audio.mp3 --- # Beyond Reflection, Towards Belonging Joanne Lockwood is joined by Gillian Russell to explore what it means to move beyond reflection towards genuine belonging, in the context of a UK Supreme Court ruling on the definition of “woman” and its impact on trans people. They discuss the emotional and practical fallout of the decision, the erosion of rights, and why the trans community can struggle to coordinate fast, strategic action. The conversation covers lobbying, working with allies, and the need for better organised advocacy, alongside the value of cross-community collaboration with other marginalised groups. Gillian shares her background across the arts, corporate life, charity leadership, and trans advocacy, reflecting on language, identity, and why being trans is only one small part of a person. Together they explore resilience, vulnerability, mental wellbeing, and the importance of robust conversations that educate rather than entrench division. The episode closes with pragmatic optimism: focus on what can be controlled, seek support when needed, and build the collective capability to adapt, organise, and drive change while continuing to pursue a society where people can belong and thrive. ## Chapters - 00:00 — Introduction and Welcome - 01:30 — Action Over Endless Talk - 05:55 — Reflection on Gender Rulings - 06:59 — Uniting Allies for Change - 10:53 — Advocating for Trans Awareness - 13:51 — Gender and Arts Exploration - 18:56 — Gender Identity and Societal Shifts - 20:53 — Woke Scolding and Equality - 24:29 — Minority Influence and Tolerance - 28:58 — Support and Advocacy for Trans Rights - 32:32 — TSA Screening Irony - 33:12 — Facing Challenges, Finding Support - 37:25 — Jon Stewart Challenges Anti-Trans Logic - 42:00 — Identity, Responsibility, and Football - 44:08 — Identity Beyond Labels - 49:01 — AI's Impact on Architecture Firms - 49:47 — Key Skills in AI Era - 54:14 — Beware Fake CBD Products - 57:50 — Contact Gillian Russell ## Key takeaways - Lessons from political and legal changes affecting trans inclusion and how communities can mobilise more effectively. - The critical distinction between individual identity, social labels, and the complexity of belonging in organisations and society. - The impact of intersectionality on building advocacy: why broad, cohesive strategies matter. - How commercial change management and lobbying can inform advocacy for marginalised groups. - Resilience and wellbeing: navigating external hostility whilst fostering internal strength and compassion. - The transformative potential of arts, neurodiversity, and new technologies like AI for empowering young people and breaking traditional barriers. - Practical approaches for allyship, self-advocacy, and connecting with support networks to sustain change and build inclusive cultures. ## FAQs ### What is the central theme of this Inclusion Bites episode? This episode centres on the concepts of reflection and belonging within the context of trans rights, inclusion, and the resilience of marginalised communities. Joanne Lockwood and Gillian Russell discuss how historical events, current challenges, and community dynamics shape opportunities for younger generations, with a strong focus on moving the conversation from introspection towards creating tangible belonging. --- ### How did the recent UK Supreme Court judgement impact the speakers and the trans community? Both Joanne and Gillian discussed the emotional toll and practical ramifications of the ruling on the definition of ‘woman’. The judgement was described as a setback, creating legal distinctions that affect the rights and recognitions of trans women, resulting in feelings of exclusion and frustration within the trans community. Nevertheless, both speakers emphasised the need for resilience, reflection, and collective action moving forward. --- ### Why do the speakers argue that the trans community struggles with unity? The speakers highlight that the trans community is highly diverse and intersectional, often lacking a cohesive organisational structure or collective approach to change management and lobbying. They note the absence of dedicated advocacy and effective coordination, compared to well-organised groups with clear lobbying objectives. This diversity, while a strength in many ways, presents a challenge when unified action is necessary. --- ### What role do allies and advocacy play according to the episode? Gillian and Joanne recognise the importance of allies, both individuals and organisations, in amplifying the voices of the trans community. Public figures and passionate advocates are acknowledged, but a coordinated and strategic approach is identified as necessary for making lasting societal change. The episode encourages building bridges with other marginalised groups and fostering stronger alliances. --- ### In what ways do generational differences shape opportunities and attitudes within the trans community? Gillian, identifying as an ‘elder’ in the community, describes a strong desire to provide opportunities and resources to younger generations that were unavailable to preceding ones. She notes that younger people benefit from improved language, access to information, and broader societal understanding, but stresses the importance of passing on skills related to resilience, lobbying, and negotiation. --- ### How do the guests describe the intersection of identity, labels, and belonging? Identity is framed as a deeply personal construct, far richer than societal labels. Joanne contrasts externally imposed labels—such as ‘IT expert’ or ‘trans woman’—with self-perceived identity, expressing that true belonging arises from being authentically seen and included, rather than being defined solely by a characteristic. --- ## Transcript Joanne Lockwood: Foreign. Welcome to Inclusion Bites, your sanctuary for bold conversations that spark change. I'm Joanne Lockwood, your guide on this journey of exploration into the heart of inclusion, belonging and societal transformation. Ever wondered what it truly takes to create a world? Remember, everyone not only belongs, but thrives. You're not alone. Join me as we uncover the unseen, challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate deep within. Ready to dive in? Whether you're sipping your morning coffee or winding down after a long day, let's connect, reflect and inspire action together. Don't forget, you can be part of the conversation too. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk to share your insights or to join me on the show. So adjust your earbuds and settle in. It's time to ignite the spark of inclusion with Inclusion Bites. And today is episode 181 with the title Beyond Reflection Towards Belonging. And I have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Gillian Russell. Gillian is the CEO of Beyond Reflections, who champion mental well being and inclusion by empowering the younger generation with chances the older generations never had. When I asked Gillian to describe her superpower, she said it is giving younger people those opportunities her generation was developing. Hello, Gillian. Welcome to the show. Hey, Jo, how are you? Yeah, well, yeah. No, yeah, it's been a tough day at the office. Tough day at the office. 16th of April, 2025, and we had the Lord Chief Justices of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom rule on the definition of woman. And that as a trans woman, that affects me and without wishing to out you any further, other affects us both in some ways. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a tough day. It has, it has. It's been one of those days. It's Gillian Russell: not unexpected, I suppose, but it's still. It's still a kick in the guts really, isn't it? That's. That's the trouble. Brutal is the word already is. It is. It is brutal. But no, not unexpected. And I think the problem has been, if I may say, is that in my view. How can I put this, I don't know that we've done enough to a protect the freedoms we had to protect the rights we have. I don't know if we've done enough to take enough action quickly and effectively enough. I don't know. Because we're such a diverse community, as a group of transgender people under that huge umbrella, it's hard to get everybody to come together. You know, I sit in meetings with CEOs and other structures in the trans health and I listen to people to go talking and talking and talking and talking and talking. And just sometimes I just wish, can we just do something? And I think. I think, you know, there's an orange man in the White House at the moment, and he has proven one thing above all for me. It's something which has been my mantra all my life. It's not what you do, it's how fast you do it. And if you're gonna make change happen, you do it fast. And that means that things happen. And I just think we spent a lot of time consulting, coordinating, thinking, policy making, pontificating. And I understand why, get me wrong? Because of course, you know, it's. But there's this idea that we have to have everybody on the same train, all going the same direction, whatever that train is and where the tracks are. Sometimes I think. And I'm looking at myself, by the way, Joe, you know, I think this is really important. People like myself, the elders in the community, as it were. And I'm proud to say I'm older than you, so I can call myself a true elder if I'm older than you. That is something, isn't it? But, you know, we've not pressed hard enough. And I think we fought so hard to get the rights we had, and then we sat down and thoroughly celebrated them, and then we sort of went to sleep and we just assumed that was all ours. And I think what we've seen in the States is that erosion of a democracy. And I think we're seeing it in the UK and I think we're seeing, you know, the big picture, a big political movement against trans people for all sorts of different reasons, but in the day to day, you know, it's the case, isn't it, that who really cares about this decision? It's about 25 people with a particular agenda. Sorry, there's probably maybe 250 people with a particular gender. And of the other 79¼ million people in this country, no kids are monkeys about it, apart from us, who are severely disadvantaged by it. And. And that's the. That's the trouble with this. That's the trouble with this rule. Yeah, but we don't want to talk all day about this because that's just moaning and pitching, isn't it? You know, that's why, just like opening. Salvo, it's a car Joanne Lockwood: crash on the way to work. I guess it's probably the best way of describing it. Yeah. And you know what's really brilliant about it? It does two things. It Gillian Russell: polarises People, doesn't it? So you have people. I was on LBC this morning chatting and I had someone called Graham who rang in, say ah, Gillian with the blokes voice. Ah, you know, what's the reason this is important is for the protection of our spec. And are they great? Yeah, because I'm single handedly not doing my bit to help them. You know, the carry on of the species having fathered children in the past. So, you know, my job is done here, both as a man, as a woman. Was that Nick Ferrari you did, Joanne Lockwood: was it? No, it was on James Bright or Brian, part of the phone Gillian Russell: in the thing. Yeah, I did GB News this morning. I'm sure you did. You live on there now, don't you? I don't know. You can't live Joanne Lockwood: there, it's far too toxic and soul destroying. But I was sat in the green room or on Zoom waiting to go live and I just listened to the two presenters, they were just piling on the bigotry, the bias, the anti trans rhetoric and it was just like by the time I got on there I was feeling kind of unclean and dirty. And then they had someone outside the court in Scotland who was basically celebrating from one of the board of Sex Matters charity and they were euphoric and it was kind of. And I was trying not to be too doom and gloomy and just be very practical. You know, we've got to accept the decision, we've got to work out what it means. Today is a day for reflection, tomorrow is a day to regroup and re establish, you know, I still have a gender recognition certificate, I'm a certificated woman. According to the judge, I may not be a biological woman and I never claimed to be a biological woman, but I'm legally, for all intents and purposes a woman. I'm just not covered under the Equality act under the sex protection. And let's, let's be really clear about this. Gillian Russell: What we need to do is look back in six months time and say, and see how the figures of rapes, crimes, violence against women have dramatically dropped because all of these transgender women are being excluded from these spaces. It is ludicrous. Well, what it shows is that well funded, well invested, well organised, small groups of people can make a big impact and we can do that. And that's why I keep sort of, you know, we have great allies out there, we have advocates who speak passionately on behalf, you know, Joe Lysert, Dave, David Tennant. We've got good people out there and we're just Not. We're just not joining the dots to bring it all together and make that process work. And, you know, that's what we have to do. Simples. But isn't the problem we're not Joanne Lockwood: really a community? Yeah, we're not. We're a. A group of people who share a characteristic. Yes, but we're so diverse, so disparate, so intersectional. We're not really a community. And even within. We're organised as a community. But we are a community, as I would say. Gillian Russell: But I remember Bobby Pickard saying this in Trans. In the City. You know, we don't have a hut, we don't have a badge, we don't have a flag that we always. Which is funny because we do have all those three things. But. But you're absolutely right, we don't. And we don't have people who, dare I say, have been in the commercial world enough to understand how large scale change management lobbying works in the real world. Like lots of people, we've got a lot of people running this sort of community interest companies who have come from that community. We don't have people who've maybe got the breadth of experience. You and I have been in the corporate world and managing huge changes and understanding. How do you get a government to change and understanding if you've got a thousand people heading in one direction, how do you change that really quickly? And all of this, all of this can happen. Just needs. It just needs some. Hold the first meeting. I always think, and I've often. If you look at. If Joanne Lockwood: I look through the sex matters and looked at the who's who there on their website and they have people on their board who are specifically targeted at lobbying mps and ministers and people like that. They have someone deliberately working with the press and media to get that. Stories. We don't have that. We don't have an advocacy charity. We used to. I mean, Press for Change used to be Gillian Russell: that organisation wasn't there and. And we. But we didn't. And we didn't. But we didn't have the forces against us in that time. But I genuinely. I'm actually genuinely. What's the word? I mean, across. I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm bloody mad, actually. But I'm actually quite optimistic as well because there comes these points in the road where what they've done is. They've said, right, it's this. So now we know what we're dealing with because since 2010 it's been anything and no one's known what they're dealing with now, we might not like the result we've got, but now we know what we're fighting against. And actually, it's better to have a fight against something than half a fight against lots of different things. And what's important for us now is that we're a wedge piece of. This is a wedge piece of legislation against all marginalised communities. And, you know, we have to get others, those marginalised communities, to stand behind us and with us, because there's also already attacks on gay marriage. And this is, you know, Project 2025. I had the joy of reading all 900 pages at one point. This is all written down. This is actually a plan. This is not someone, you know, actually sort of making up goes along. This is a well considered, well thought out, well funded, well organised plan and we can do the same. I'm very hopeful. Let's get to it. Yeah, we Joanne Lockwood: just gotta. We just gotta come together. I think you're right. But, yeah, we said in the green room before we went live here that we weren't gonna spend the entire episode talking about this. So we've done a bit of a prelude and we got it off our chest and we've kind of screamed at the world and committed it to tape. But, Jillian, tell us a bit more about what your real passion is in your other life, if you like. It's interesting, isn't Gillian Russell: it? Because being very old, even older than you, as you said, I mean, I've had a number of different careers and not just working for Beyond Reflections. I'm the chair of Support you, which is a LGBT charity up in Thames Valley, and I'm the host of TransVox, which is a campaign and podcasts such as your own, but specifically in the trans world, and trying to, you know, making change happen in the trans world with a colleague of mine, as well as working in Beyond Reflections. So I've always said that because I left it so late to transition, I look at some of the younger people who come along behind and say, it's a real. You know, I want those people to have what I didn't have. Now, what I didn't have is through my own choice, and sometimes because of a lack of opportunity and knowledge and time and resources and such like. But you see, when I started out, and maybe you're the same, we didn't have the word transgender. We didn't really talk about identity as a psychological construct. We didn't really talk about. Certainly didn't talk about gender identity. We had. You know, I come from the Northeast of England. And you. If you were wearing women's clothing, were you just seen as a pervert? And there was no concept or construct. I mean, we had that, you know, documentary about the person that was born in the wrong body. And, you know, I remember that being discussed. And I think, you know, the youngsters today, they've got the language, they've got. They've got evidence, they've got science, they've got all sorts of things which are there to be able to make things work for them. And I think it's, you know, the job of us elders to be able to facilitate for that next generation the opportunity, but also the skills on how to fight and how to lobby and negotiate and do the things that we've done. Because arguably, trans people are very resilient, but also they're not. At the same time, they're very vulnerable. So it's about how we transfer those skills. Now, I was lucky. I remember when I was very young, a conversation with my uncles, actually, and my uncle was a very large man. He just come from Poland, working in the steelworks in Poland. Steelworks, remember those? And he was sitting. He used to work for Swan Hunters, the people that made the tanks in the war. And he was sitting there. And I used to be a musician. I used to play A musician, play music. And I used to say to him, E. E. Because we always say E at the beginning everything in Geordieland. He's a funny un. He's a funny un. But at least he's not a Tory. Joanne Lockwood: There are worse things, aren't there, than being trans. And I always think, and this is no disrespect to any of my friends or anybody that listens to this, I'd rather be trans than a Morris dancer or a Tory. And, sorry, that's not meant to be pissed anybody. That's very funny. And it is interesting, though, isn't it? It's Gillian Russell: interesting that, you know, I have met trans people in the Reform Party and in the Tory Party, and it's. And it's that lovely idea. So your point about not being a community, isn't it? We're not all. We don't need to be cut from the same place. The point about our, you know, the trans existence is that it's. It's separate to our lives. It's possible to have views which are not linked to being transgender the whole time. So I suppose I was lucky, you see, because I grew up in the arts world, so I had gender dysphoria, but didn't know it was gender dysphoria. I was often caught, you know, dressing in clothes, female clothes, not knowing that was a bad thing. Remember coming to London and going to Transformation, you know, like, I'm one of those people that went to the Old Place and Euston Road, you know, it was great. Used to see the adverts and used to come down, you have to make a phone call from the call box around the corner. And I was about 13, 14, coming down to Newcastle, from Newcastle to London to have music lessons, such like. And then, you know, sort of trying to experiment with this, but at least the arts. And I've always been a big fan of the arts and I always think lots of trans people come from the arts and they come from it as well. Being in the arts gave me that ability to express yourself through music. And, of course, that was marvellous because I wasn't able to express myself with words because the words sort of didn't exist at that time. And at the time, you know, we're talking, I remember a friend of mine, I was a musicologist who committed suicide because, you know, gay rights weren't even a thing really, back then. You know, early set, it was, you know, it was. I can't remember when gay homosexuality was decriminalised, can't remember it. But there's a huge amount of, you know, negativity around the whole thing. So the idea of being transgender was just nowhere. So. So I think it's been. It's been a classic story of you. You find your way, you understand yourself. I mean, how many people we met in the military have tried to deny it themselves? You know, how to try and fight against it, got married, had children, all that sort of stuff, you know, try to deny themselves. I mean, a lot of people I meet who are trans say, I wish. I just. I wish I wasn't. Wouldn't life be easier not being transgender? People don't understand this, who aren't transgender. I remember sitting recently and saying in a board meeting, you know, I sit here now and I used to have white male privilege. And whatever I said, whatever, whatever it was, people just listened to and go, oh. I used to suck their teeth and say, that's very profound. And then a woman would say something and it was, ah. And then a transgender says, this person says that. And they're sort of saying, oh, are you a she or a they? And it's like. It's just not the conversation. And it's like, we. We lose our. This, you know, this idea of crossing identities is very Very powerful. And, you know, which is something that's fascinating. But I think having a world for me built in the arts gave me this access, especially from the Northeast. It gave me access to people from different classes, different aspects, different journeys, you know, and it was a. It was a marvellous thing. It was true inclusivity and, you know, because actually what you're trying to do is to produce a performance and no one cares after a while. There was quite a lot of sexism at the time, but no one cared after a while whether you know, what you were, what you. Who you were or where you come from. It just mattered. That was a great performance. I say that as if it's true. I mean, clearly there was a lot of untruth sitting behind that. But, you know, that was really what it's all about. I was in the freelance world as well. So freelance players were either you were either up to it or you weren't. And so, you know, it's been a founding part of my life before I went into commerce and even in commerce. I've always understood and had that sort of musical brain being able to see the world differently. I mean, I now think, you know, neurodiversity. I think Howard Gardner talked about this idea of multiple intelligence is slightly erroneous thing, but musical intelligence is quite an interesting concept and musical language and such like for those who habit. So I've always been able to see the world differently. And to a certain extent, I think I thought that explained being trans because I already looked at the world differently. I already used to think that everybody used to look at the mirror and think, well, I'm this. And I look in the mirror and think, who's that? I thought every. Like posadamba. Don't know whether you had that experience. It's peculiar, isn't it? Just seeing a person you want being reflected back. Who is that? It's like when you watch Cats. So don't you see Cats in the. Looking in the mirrors and the sort of, you know, that thing where they jump into the air and I think I spent a lot of time doing that. Yeah. I probably only became Joanne Lockwood: hyper aware of that mirror image at the point when I was transitioning, I guess. And the dysphoria, you know, the. I was okay here, I was okay here. But it was on that bit in the middle where you just didn't see the reflection of the somebody who you believed you were on the inside. I could handle it. Looking at a bloke when I was a bloke, sort of thing, it didn't bother me but it was when I was embarking on my transition I was hyper aware imposter syndrome, passing a test, not being good enough for anybody. Who am I kidding? All that kind of dysphoric self loathing kicked in and it's only when I was able to break away from that self loathing and that focus on what I look like because actually that became irrelevant. Actually what I looked like was not irrelevant at all how I felt and loved myself. And that's when I focused on that. It doesn't matter what you think of me, whether you criticise me or you slag me off. You don't like my voice, whatever it may be, that's not relevant. It's what's in my heart and my soul and my being that's the important. Who you are, Gillian Russell: the root of you. And I think sometimes I genuinely envy some of the young members of the trans population because just younger people because they've not grown up with those sort of stereotypical roles. Lots more gender fluidity, there's lots more accept. I mean, you know, people used to be out there in my world if you had a pink shirt on, sorry a purple shirt on with big, big collars now I mean people come in wearing the most amazing clothes and you look at them and think that's incredible because societal breakdown has happened around fashion and, and those sorts of things and I think the traditional idea of what a woman and a man looks like has broken down. This has allowed I think the non binary community to, to sort of go ah, okay, that makes a lot of sense because I'm none of those things. And you know that's, that's been a really wonderful opportunity for people to, to think about that. Whether they're always a non binary or they move from one side to the other or you know, it's part of a path, whatever that might be. I think, I think being non binary is very misunderstood possibly because it is that concept which is, it's not this rather than being a something which is, which is very clear. It's an Joanne Lockwood: absence rather than a positive statement. Yes. It's like a vacuum, isn't it? It's Gillian Russell: like, you know, okay, I, that's not, doesn't got, hasn't got that in. But what is it that, what is it you are rather than what is that you're not? And I saw a good old J.K. rowling launching Seven Pennyworth into the conversation about agender people on a website and. You know, asexual people. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So there you go, confusing sexuality and gender again, as usual. But there you go. Well, there was this person, one of the presenters Joanne Lockwood: on TV news this morning, pontificating about the fact that now they don't have to pander. The people who use they them pronoun. We know it's all rubbish. It's like, no, you're just extrapolating BS from this. It doesn't weaponize. It doesn't empower you. No, but you see, I was talking to someone and Gillian Russell: talking to Jenny, colleague of mine, who's a big YouTube on the podcast, and it's something I've talked about for a long time. And I remember a couple of the tech bros talking about this idea of woke scolding, this idea that you're talking down to people, telling them this is not right and that's not right. And. And I've been a huge advocate of removing all that. And you know, what you're. You're saying is, I don't want to be treated differently, I want to be treated the same as everybody else. And I'm not going to get bent out of shape for some of some of these things, because I understand. Takes you time to understand because you've got limited intelligence and you know, that's hard. And I get that. And one of the things I think is we have spent a bit too much time focusing on the wrong things. I do think we spend too much time talking down to people. I don't think we've. Actually, if I always like to say this, if you took our community and looked at the ROI from our community in the performing arts and the soft power of the UK in the IT world, for goodness sake, we would be a significant community in terms of impact. No one talks about that. No one talks about the part we play within LGBTQIA umbrellas. No one talks about the impact of those people. And if they do, they don't talk about enough in a way that people get. And I think for me, this is your point about not being a community. We never sit down, do we, and think, actually, what are we worth? Not just individuals, but what are we actually worth in the UK economy? We're worth a lot. I mean, how many IT firms would grow into a halt if we took our transgender people out of coding? Nothing would be flying for a while, would it? Well, certainly gender queer, gender fluid, gender expansive people. Yeah. The Joanne Lockwood: whole spectrum. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Gillian Russell: And I think. And I think we. And I think that's the point, isn't it? The point is we need to Stand up for ourselves. We need to bring this evidence together. You know, one of the things in the arts funding at the moment is they're saying things like, well, actually, if you invest a pound into the arts community, you get something like three or four thousand pounds back into the cultural zeitgeist. And I mean, so that's the argument, isn't it? So invest, because actually you're going to get a return on investment. The issue is how quickly does that return come? Okay, it's not quick enough. Let's figure out how we get that to return fast enough. Now we've got a different conversation. We're not saying we shouldn't, we're just saying how do we do it? And I think this is the thing that's being missed again in our community. I'm not, by the way, suggesting that this is a piece of work we need or should be doing, but it's that sort of commercial thinking about the world. It's about how we lead, how we manage, how we develop, how we think about cultures. It's about we've. We can, we can become so protective. We don't give people the tools to be able to have robust conversations. We can remove people and say. I remember someone asking me a question at a speaking event and one of the facilities on the panel there was something quite innocuous saying that's hate speech is anti trans. I said, it's not hate speech and not anti trans. A. I'm not offended because I've chosen to be, but actually it's coming from a place where you're finding out when he wasn't calling me something, it was asking. And I think this is the thing, isn't it? We. We run the risk of closing down arguments. We run the risk of being vulnerable to the extent that we don't actually educate and inform people. And a lot of people, once they educate and informed, are quite okay there. I mean, it's a classic piece of research, isn't it? Once you met a trans. If you don't like trans people, A, you probably met one never knew. But if you have met an explicit trans person, you tend. Your opinions about trans people completely change at the end of it. Yeah, I think Joanne Lockwood: we've tried to create people accuse us of having an ideology and I think to a certain extent we've created language that seems complex. We're forcing people to conform to our way of thinking. As a minority, we're trying to influence the majority. And I think sometimes what we probably need to do is be more tolerant ourselves I totally agree. And learn to navigate a world where we're not the majority, we're not the default, and therefore we have to figure it out. And no minority ever wants to fit here, that they're not included. But sometimes we have to work at it. And I think, I know if we attack people, your argument, if we go there with pitchforks, people tend to put the barricades up. So how do we lower the drawbridge? How do we get people to sit around the table and have conversations? And that's what we've lacked. I Gillian Russell: think that's absolutely right. I think it's that a classic thing is that you've got to understand the other person's perspective. Now, I've listened to the turf, what people, what we call turf stuff. We listen to the extreme feminist argument. Do you know what? They're pretty right. They've fought for many, many years to get the rights of women to be where they are, and then they suddenly find them swept away because as they see it, a bunch of blokes dressed in frocks are going to come along and get their rights. I mean, I think I'd be a bit hacked off about that as well. And I don't think we've thought clearly enough about that. There's been a heck of a struggle for 30, 40, 50 years. You know, at a visceral level. I don't mean visceral. I mean at a really fundamental level for women to get, I mean, I remember my mother in 74, whatever it was, having to go get a, open a bank account and having to have my husband go, my father, to go along with them to open their bank account. That's only 50 years. You know, that's, that's been a long time. And I don't think we appreciate the fact that this has been a long struggle. And, and then we sort of, in their perception, come swanning along at the end and go, well, we want all the rights that you've got. Thanks very much. And in their world, you know, we're just, we're just taking it, taking away again as what they see as men who dress up and okay, fair enough. Let's start there. Let's have that conversation. And because we're a broad church, there are people across that spectrum Joanne Lockwood: who, from gender fluid, cross dressing, transvestite people, whatever language you want to use historical, who do it for identity reasons or for expression reasons or for fetish reasons. And again, we're such a broad church that we rebranded the word trans or transgender to mean lots of different Things to mean nothing. Everybody gets caught up in everybody else's description and that's where confusion arises. And I can hear that the judge this morning talking about we couldn't have a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate who looked like a man in women's spaces. It's like, well, okay, we're conflating the whole thing there of course. But it comes down to perception. Yeah. And never mind trans masc people Gillian Russell: just because they don't have penises, they look more alaid. Some of the transmascape people have fantastic. I mean they're just, you know, broad. Shoulders and Joanne Lockwood: trans men with penises. I'm afraid I've been there. I mean of course. And they're keen to show it off and go look what I've got. Yeah, it's. And they're Gillian Russell: allowed toilets. And it's not like. And it's not like we've got the third option because of course now what we're talking about. So we're back in bathrooms again. Let's get off, let's get off that subject. You know, less than 5. You know, I was in London in the Royal Exchange. You probably note that lovely place. Go down to the loos down there. Everything is just non gendered or any. Just going to the toilet or you know, whatever the Americans say. Bathroom I've never understood because I'm from the North. I never understood the concept of a bathroom because a bathroom is a place you go for a bath and a toilet is a place that you go to how good to the toilet. Call me old fashioned. Well they call them restrooms as well, don't they? Restrooms, Joanne Lockwood: bathrooms. I mean I go to the Louvre. Yeah. I go, I go and spend a penny. Yep. So I think, I think there's going to Gillian Russell: be interesting challenges. I think there's going to be, as you say, there's going to be many different people who consider themselves leaders in the trans community, as it were, who are going to get out there and going to say stuff. It's going to be not coordinated. It's going to be all over the shop. It'll be a shame. But I do think some traditional corporate change management would actually help this and would allow things to move forward. And at the same time you've got an organisation like the charity I work for who's not political, doesn't have. That's why we have trans voxers, so we can campaign and be political, but they're just supporting trans people. Many hundreds of members who are going in needing support with trans issues. Well, being safety, dealing with hate crime, thinking about challenges with the National Health Service, for God's sake, you know, because we know that's another area of exclusion, you know, And I think, I think there are organisations to just get on under the surface and just deliver something and then you've got people who want to make a song and dance about it. And I think the good thing to know is that for trans people is we're not alone. And there are some really good trans support charities out there consider arrows to be good, obviously, but there's others and you should reach out to them and you can talk to them and have a chat and then say, okay, so that's one thing, that's support and safety and all that sort of stuff. And then the next thing is, right, okay, so what we're going to do about this. And I think that's the part where people have got to be standing up and saying something and I think that's the process of change, isn't it? You've got to have places where it sort of bubbles along and then you've got to have people who are pushing envelope who are out there saying things. And you've done this in GB News, you stand up and say stuff, it's not popular and people throw all sorts of insults at you and, you know, they do to me and, and, hey, yeah, I'm a trans woman and. And I'm proud to be. And I've always said I am. I've never pretended to be a cisgender woman. Certificated woman. Joanne Lockwood: Now I'm a certificated woman. Congratulations. The difference. The judge told me I'm a certificated woman, not a biological woman. So. Exactly. I've got a new title. Yeah, congratulations. We need, we need, we need a. You need a Gillian Russell: badge. Yeah, you have to carry that around. Now Joanne Lockwood: I get my gender recognition certificate and I frame it and I keep it in my pocket just in case I'm a certificated woman. Yeah. And I think, do you Gillian Russell: know what, it's interesting that, because it is, it does beg the question of how they're going to check this stuff out, because I do have this idea that we're going to have a new employment strand of gender in a toilet police who are going to be standing there saying, now there's a special test I'm going to give you to see whether you're a cross dresser, a transvestite, gender fluid or a CIS woman. It's like. It's hilarious, isn't it? So we already see the people being. Called out by Joanne Lockwood: teak with a. A brush. And then you're gonna DNA test it and. Yeah, and then by the time you've done that, I've already peed and washed. My Gillian Russell: hands down his leg. This is all good stuff, but, you know, it's. The trans community has had these challenges many, many times and it's adapted and it's grown and grown and it's, you know, it's like weeds. It pops up through the cracks in the. In the pavement. And we're not going away as a community, but we might have to be a bit more smart about how we operate over the next period of time. And it's clear that this Labour government aren't going to be particularly interested in this and they're going to use this the same way as the Tories did last time around. And so we've got to deal with. They really started talking Joanne Lockwood: on the news today about how we fully support the judgement. We knew they were right. And of course you think, well, yeah, everyone's throwing us under a brick under a bus right now. And so, yeah, so we've got to be clear. Let's see what happens when trans people are being discriminated against under the protected characteristic agenda reassignment. If I start seeing some cases where trans people start winning back and limiting the. And, yeah, all this rhetoric, you know, about banning me from sex, separated spaces, like hospital wards. I think last time I went to hospital, they looked at me, scratched their head and put me in a private room. And I thought, well, okay, segregate me and put me in a private room every day of the week. Give me my own telly. That's. Yeah, go for it. You're not having any complaints from me. Yeah. So, yeah. Is that what you. Is that what you mean? You want make me happier by putting me in a private room? That's fine. That's good. It did make me laugh, Gillian Russell: dealing with the level of sophistication from some of this. I was reading an article on LinkedIn about the guy who didn't want to be subjected to the TSA screening process because apparently the TSA screening process makes you gay. So what he'd prefer is to be patted down by a male operative. And I did chuckle, I think. I don't know if you've seen the irony of what you were just said there, but you'd rather have a man cup your testicles than actually just go through a screening process. So this is what we're dealing with. We have to be smart. We have to look after ourselves and look at each other for the next period of time and then things will. Because we can't see what the world's going. We can only do a risk analysis and say it is the case that very, very powerful organisations, outfits, political institutions are moving against us and when it's expedient to go the other way, they will. And you know, it doesn't help that we've got west treating in the Ministry of Health, but we have, you know, we know things are going to be getting tough, but that doesn't mean we can't do stuff about it. And certainly in the charities I've worked for, what's been fascinating is the degree to which funding organisations still currently are on our side, still the case that arts organisations are still on our side, it's still the case that you can get jobs where you can get jobs. I mean, there is discrimination against trans people. I've done that thing where I've applied for a job, an identical, the same job with the same cv, but the word trans on one and a boy name on the other one. I've got an interview as one and not as the other. So, you know, it's there. But then that also can be just about AI and rubbish as well that goes on in the world. And I think we've got to just say we can only control the old state stuff that we can control and that's what's inside of our, you know, between our two ears and we can get out royally bent out of shape about all this or we can actually say, look, we need to be resilient, we need to be cute, we need to stick together and then we need to think about what we're going to do running for, how we're going to cope and adapt to this new world until we've got a chance to change it. And once we change it, it'll be different again, it may be worse, it may be better, we just don't know. And as you said, control the controllables. And if it's outside Joanne Lockwood: of your control, you have to work out how you can adapt around it and cope with it and stay resilient and stay strong. Just don't burn all your energy up on reentry. You ought to save some for the landing. Yeah, well, I've spent many years as a psychologist Gillian Russell: working with people and building resilience. You know, I do see a lot of. I do see huge amounts of resilience in our non community, as it were, but I also see a lot of victimhood and victimisation as well in the community. And understanding that role of choice and controllability and such like is really important. And understanding about how to ask for help and helping and asking people how to help you think if you don't know how is really important as well, because you don't need to suffer alone with things like the effects of anxiety or depression and such like. Some of it needs to be sorted out and that works. And that works in a work setting as well. You know, organisations need to be more resilient and think of different ways to being that way and need to be more adaptable and think more. I mean, there's a massive crisis coming to the world of work soon, according to all about AI. And as trans people, we should be thinking a lot about that, because many of us are in that community, could do something about that. There's going to be a lot of seismic change hitting the UK over the next 20 years, maybe over the next two. I sincerely hope, as a woman, as a certificated Joanne Lockwood: woman, no less, that we do start focusing on what matters to women and that is safety and not experiencing some of the sexist behaviour we get all the time. And I really would like some of these charities who purport to be for women to actually start tackling the real shit and challenges that are out there. And that's predatory men, often in a family environment, looking at people in positions of power and responsibility who are adversely affecting women's opportunities in the workplace. Sexism exists, disparity in. In pay and reward in sport and other sectors. That's where we want to put the effort in. And 0.5% of the population who are just getting on with their lives are not a threat. So let's hope that we start actually starting to call out people who are trying to bang on about trying to save women and actually. What are you doing? Really? We should be talking about Gillian Russell: that. We should be talking about health and safety for women and girls, because we are women and girls and we should be part of that debate, not being seen as the threat. You know, the vast majority of rape is from people you know, I mean, those statistics are. Have been well borne out over the years. Very well documented, very robust. You know, bumping into a stranger in a toilet wearing a wig is unlikely to be the source of your most extreme discontent. It's. It's like the. I don't know if you're familiar with Jon Stewart's work. I remember in the States, I think he's on the Late show or whatever it is, sitting down with one of the anti trans campaigners and saying, why are you stopping drug shows? And they're saying, well, drag shows are very, you know, harmful to children. So he said, okay, that's really interesting. What's the number one source of harm for children in the us? And the person looked at him, said, you're going to say guns, aren't you? And he said, of course I'm going to say guns. Because there've been four and a half thousand deaths from guns and zero from watching a drag show. And it's exactly the same in our world. So it's not about that. And that's the thing we've got to figure out. It's not about that, it's not about toilets. Toilets are just the thing. That's the gathering point. It's something else. And that's the bit we've got to get. It's not about prisons, it's not about children, it's not Joanne Lockwood: about this, it's not about the other. It's all about. It's playing find the lady with the cards, isn't it? Don't look at this hand, look at this hand. That's what it's all about, isn't it? The troll of the masses. Fox News that has. Gillian Russell: Whenever there's a positive story about Donald Trump, they have positive story about Donald Trump. Here's the stock market, it'll say this, it's that he's jumping up and down. Negative story about the stock market. Transgender athlete. That's a headline. And it's just we have always been the dead cut, haven't we? Rishi Sunak, Boris Johnson, we've always been. Let's just roll out a transgender issue. You know, let's get that very tall swimmer. I forget that their name. There you are, Sharon Davies, straight on the scene, flipping X right into war. Sharon Dick. And you know, good. And of course what we have to do is not just let ourselves be radicalised by the radicalised others and that's about just staying sane in this world. And I do think that's part of our job, isn't it, as elders, is to be saying, we've been through this before. You know, I've sat on and board meetings and takeovers and such like emergence and acquisitions, where two sides have been literally yelling, screaming, inches away from each other's faces, pointing about the punch people in the faces and you can talk people down from that. And this, this situation of ours can be dealt with, it just can't. I don't want to be an elder, I want Joanne Lockwood: to Be a youngster again. Sorry. You're an old certificated woman and be proud Gillian Russell: of it. Yeah, but you're younger than me. You're younger than me, so I'm still looking at you, thinking you youngsters. So that's good, isn't it? Oh, that's good. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I was talking to earlier. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I'm back on again. Yeah. I'm only 25 in my head. Yeah. No, I do think. I do think. I do think with everything. It's about what's in your head. For me, I'm always optimistic. I always think there's no need for us to start running for the hills and, you know, all moving. Well, don't move to Spain because that's. That's not so great. Or moving to Norway or wherever it is where we're accepted. This is a good country. It's. It's relatively free, it's relatively benign. It's about what we do with it. So, you know, let's get together and sort out. Yeah. And I Joanne Lockwood: mean, the grass is never greener. The grass is just grass. There's always been a cow's shit on it somewhere, whatever it may be. It's. You just got to make do with what you've got. And you can keep looking over the fence, you can keep wishing or wanting, but the reality and people. I often say to people, when they say to me, should I transition? I said, well, what do you. What's in it for you? What's the objective? You know, if you're looking for a greener grass, a better life, that's not what you. That's not what it's about. The ultimate aim is for life to be ordinary and boring and just like everybody else's. If that's what you're looking for and that's what's missing in your life. Ordinary and boring. Yay. Welcome to. Welcome to my club. Yeah. So I was chatting Gillian Russell: online to someone and said to me, oh, it must be great wearing tights all the time. I said, really, really have. Do you know, I mean, you've obviously not done it because it's not become the massive sexual fetishization thing for them. And. And that's the problem, isn't that people look at this and think that we're like that and we don't think like that anymore because this was never about fetishization. It's just been about finding out who we are. Identity is really fascinating, isn't it? People get it because everybody understands the concept of Identity. So, for example, you'll live on the south coast, don't you? And you'll know people who support Portsmouth and somewhat very quietly support Southampton at the moment. And there are people. And I get the same thing up here in Newcastle and Sunderland as well. Rivalry, you know. And, you know, you'll have people in Portsmouth who won't have red stripes in the house and there'll be massive fallings out between the family. And if you. If you support them and they identify so strongly with that club, they are, I am Portsmouth here. I am Portsmouth through and through. You'll hear them saying that, oh, the. Song is Portsmouth till I Die. Chant it Joanne Lockwood: on the. On the. On the terraces. Yeah, yeah. And it was one of the Gillian Russell: things. I did some work with Southampton Football Club, so you may not like them, but I remember them saying to me that if they hear hate speech or victimisation or one of their supporters who are in their fan clubs committing hate crime or offences like that, they lose their ability to come to the football club because that's the bit they care about. And I thought, you know, that's a really positive thing. But people get that. You know, I was in Australia three years ago and I met someone and he said hello to me in some strange context, and they said, oh, where are you from? He said, I'm Welsh through and through. That's identity. I'm Welsh. How long you lived in Australia? Oh, I've been here since I was 16. How old are you now? I'm 57. And you're still Welsh? Oh, yes. I'll always be Welsh till I die. And you see, people understand identity when you start telling them, oh, yeah, I get that. But didn't I just choose that? Well, yeah, but it was more than that, wasn't it? You became it as well. Oh, yeah, that's right. People choose that. And of course, what happens is, you know, people choose their jobs, right? And how many people have evoked into men it people, I'm a man, I'm an accountant. It's the second thing to say. Or a man, I'm an actuary. And then they lose their job and they completely lose that sense of identity. They lose that sense of who they are. People get that, they understand it. I've been a mum all my life. I'm a mom, I'm a mum. Kids grow home. What am I? What am I? Oh, thank goodness, I'm a grandmom. So you get about this idea of identity is at the kernel of who we are. So why doesn't it Just click over to the last. The last piece. And I know it's much deeper than the others. People get it, don't they? Once you start explaining identity. I've never explained it. It. And people go, no, I don't believe in identity anymore. Because they'll say, well, you know, there's a bunch of nurses in front of you. I'm a nurse. I'll always be a nurse. I want to be a nurse. Would you like to be a doctor? No, I want to be a nurse. I'm a nurse, I'm a nurse. I've always been a nurse. I've always wanted to be a nurse. Here I am, I'm a nurse. I celebrate. Okay, sure you don't want to be a kind of doctor with a parent? No, I'm gonna. Because that's who I am and that's what it's all about. And I think it goes. It goes to culture and organisations, it goes to charitable, you know, organisations. It goes to who we are are who we are is who we are. And you can't really do much about it until it's taken away from you. There's the thought. Because identity Joanne Lockwood: is all wrapped up in belonging, isn't it? Because, you know, being Welsh, you're part of a Welsh community. That identity is all caught up in that sense of self, who your communities are, who your echo chamber is, your affinity group. I mean, you talk about it. And I spent a large chunk of my life, 20 or 25 years, with people labelling me as an IT guru, as an IT expert, as an IT this and the IT rocket scientist. But it was never an identity that I was proud of. It was always something that I thought, exactly, I don't want to be known as the IT person. And so it made me realise the difference between identity and labels. You give me a label how I see myself, and when I shed that IT person label and sold my business 10 years ago, it was easy to let go because it was caught up in how other people saw me, but it wasn't caught up in how I saw myself. Yeah, my new identity is a professional speaker, educator, trainer, whatever you want to do in the EDI space. And being labelled with the trans identity, it's not a label that I resonate with. Yes, if you want to tick some boxes, yes, I'm trans, yes, I'm a woman, therefore tick, tick. I'm a trans woman, fine, great. Logically, it makes sense, but it's not something I want to be all my life. It's that label stuck on My chest all the time. So yeah, it's working out who you are. I Gillian Russell: get it. I mean, I was working in, I think you know, as a speaker as well and consultant and I was working. I lost a hundred grands worth of revenue last year just because I used to work in Africa. And then suddenly I couldn't work in Africa anymore. And you know, that's just speaking revenues from one year and it's like, like, well, that's gone. And then when people ring us up now and say, oh, I'd like you to come and talk. Oh yeah, what do you want to talk about? Change management, Culture? Leadership activity? No, no. Being trans. So, okay, right, I Joanne Lockwood: know, it's, it's like, is it Paranoid Marvin, the paranoid Android? You know, brain the size of a planet and you want me to clean the floor or something? It's like, yeah, it's almost like, hang on a minute, I've got this big brain, I've got all these ideas, I've got all this oomph. You want me to talk about being trans? Okay, yeah, yeah, great. Yeah, well done. I know, Gillian Russell: and I get that all the time. I mean, it's. Luckily it's sort of interesting, but you know, it's, it's not that interesting. I mean, I was in Naples and Florida the other day and last week for two, three weeks ago for my holidays. And it was not a pleasant experience. And, and I think it's going to be a differently unpleasant experience as life rolls on. But you know, it's not, like I said right at the beginning, the least interesting. I mean, we probably haven't talked enough about what makes, what. What's more interesting than being trans, other than being just ranting. But you know, it is the least important thing about me. I remember one of my colleagues in BR saying exactly that. You know, one of their, one of their kids has said the least important thing about me is that trans is true. Because we're not defined by our transness. That's just a really small part of who we are. And once that's achieved, you know, there's that thing, isn't there, in the transition journey? It's like a change management thing. The old idea of change management is you have this, you have something that's frozen, you unfreeze it, you refreeze it again. Sometimes that's part of the trans journey, isn't it? You're something, you transition and you become something else. But you don't realise that's just the beginning of it because that's done now. And it's finished. You're not defined by your transness and the journey you've been on. It's just a small part of who we are, like everything in life, you know, otherwise we wouldn't have any potential to change. I mean, it's like if we've got a member of staff who comes in and says, I can't do Python coding, they say, well, that's it then. That's you doomed. That's the end of you. Because it sort of precludes the idea that we have potential and can learn. Yeah, you see, you can. You just gotta get Chat Joanne Lockwood: GPT, you gotta use the Deep seq. Deep Seq. And I write Python code now. Is it jibe coding, they call it, where you basically ideate into pseudocode and you just get. And Canva just released a Canva AI which writes brilliant code. I've just developed a whole lot of stuff, okay? It's not like push the button, it just happens. You've got to massage it a lot. But I've created two great things. One is an LGBT history of 200 years of LGBT history as a timeline map, which I did in Canva AI and then refined it. I've got like 130 timeline entries with drill downs and clicks and all this kind of thing, which is going to be just ready for Pride Month to show, to share with the world. And I designed all that in camera AI with, With. With Chat GPT backup on the end of it. And yeah, it's. You can develop stuff now. You haven't got to be a Python expert, you've just got to be a business analyst. Probably is where we go back to. If you're a business analyst and process analyst, you could then fill the gaps in to get the code to do the black box stuff. And you just put the black boxes together. Input, output. I was doing an interim CEO role because I do spend a long Gillian Russell: time doing that now. And I was working with a specific type of architecture firm. I don't want to say too much about that because they're very famous. And I said to them, because I was doing this work too, a couple of years ago, I said to them, so what about AI in your business? And they said, AI will never affect us. And I said, okay. I said, well, what you could do is you could maintain that view, say nothing about it, sit down with AI software people and be the first people to market, or you can do nothing thing. And I was just online the other day, had my phone, I just took a picture of my Garden. I know this is landscape design rather than landscape architecture, but I took a picture of my garden and I've got 17 designs with levels on the back of my ChatGPT stuff and deep and deep seq or whatever on Perplexity. All these different AI tools are out there and they're all giving you results you never knew. What matters now is that ingenuity of understanding the question you want to ask, that's going to be the key skill, isn't it? It's that originating need. You know, again as a therapist, counsellor, all that sort of nonsense. Go to ChatGPT and just type in, hey, ChatGPT GPT. You can't say I don't feel so good today. And they'll say, oh, I'm sorry to hear you're not feeling so good and especially if you switch the voice on, you've got a counsellor. All these non skilled jobs are going and it's time that we all woke up to the real big seismic changes which are going on, which our community could be a real big part of if only we could get ourselves, get our head out of the toilet. Pace there's a brand. I, I, I appealed Joanne Lockwood: a parking charge the other day with Chat gbt. I scanned, I took a photograph of the front and back page, fed it into Chat GPT and said, look, what causes can I, can I contest this parking charge with? He went, ah, under the British code of parking whatever, you're entitled to a 10 minute overstayment, which seemed fair and reasonable. You were 41 seconds over the 10 minutes. I think that's a good cause to go back, say it'd be a waste of the court's time to take this to court because of de minimis or whatever the legal term is and that 41 seconds is kind of like so trivial. They should deny it. If they don't, it's worth appealing. I thought, go on then, I'm going to go for this. So, yeah, it allows you to have this empowerment. A bit like YouTube gave us the idea of how to fix a car. You find the bit you want to do and YouTube shows you all the bits. I another story with ChatGPT is I've, I've got rid of Sky TV. They're just charging way too much money a month. Hang on a minute, I could do freesat, my TVs got freesat errors on. I could plug it in and I just asked CHAT GPT, can I just do this? They went, ah, no, your Sams will not like the LNB which is the module on the, on the satellite dish that Sky Q has. Because it has a different frequency or different characteristics, you need to swap out the LMB for one that is supported by your tele. I went, okay. I said, how do I do that? Take a photograph of the LMB you've got. I went. He said, right, I can see if what you've got there is definitely Sky Q. It's not the one you need. I recommend you go to Amazon and buy one of these. Okay, I've got that. So now on my telly, what do I do? It says, oh, you need to go to this setting, into this tuning, select that and do this. And it says, if you want to get hold of Far east satellite, you need to add this one in as well. I coach myself, I'm now a satellite engineer. We joke about the film the Matrix in trans circles, about being kind of our allegory, if you like. But that idea of plugging a module in to fly the Apache helicopter, the AI can now upskill us rapidly at the point you need that information. And of course, if we're six, seven or eight, we're Gillian Russell: not even thinking, this is remarkable. We think it's remarkable because remember. Do you remember dial at modems? Oh, yes. Remember that? Joanne Lockwood: The sad thing is I could tell you what bold rate and what error correction the modem negotiated and go, ah, yeah, I've got 14, 400 there. That's a good one. Or, oh, that's a 5600 connection. Yeah, that's how sad I was. I knew that. I knew the negotiated speed, face to. Gillian Russell: The knob, I could sing it and play it back to you. So there you go. You said, we'll have a little. It was like a neighing donkey, wasn't Joanne Lockwood: it? Okay, yeah, that's connected. Brilliant. Well, there you are. So there we are. We've Gillian Russell: come to the part, come around to the circle where we said, this is what we wanted to do. We want to empower young people to get on do it. And I think AI is the way it's going to happen. I think there's going to be such seismic changes over the next 20 years. If we don't have a war, which is entirely part of the risk management of the next four to five years, that's entirely likely to happen. But if it doesn't, I think we're going to have some. It's going to be a very interesting world. And we've only got another 40 or 50 years in front of us. So, you know, it's Going to be a challenge. I wish. I hope. Yes. Now we do buy a hacking and it's all written down, what you need to have. And you get your butter rail and sort your microbiome out, you know, it's all, it's all this stuff. And buy probiotic yoghurts for breakfast. Yes, Joanne Lockwood: Yeah, I know. As long as you don't buy the main brands because they're worse Gillian Russell: for you than having none. That's the challenge of all this stuff. I'll ask ChatGPT Joanne Lockwood: later than what it. Recommends you should do. That's a no. You should really watch Gillian Russell: out for some of the supermarket type stuff and anything off Amazon. I used to have a little alternative therapy unit in Port Solent years ago, which you'll know it's around the corner from you because I used to live on the south coast, which is why I manage a charity on the south coast. And I remember we used to sell CBD way before the time it was popular because I've always been at the bleeding edge of thought, thought, thinking. And Amazon did a test of all their CBD and Holland and Barrett did, and at the time, of the 16 products, none of their product had CBD in it. Isn't that amazing? Just makes you wonder, who'd have thought, eh? Who'd have thought? American companies making rash claims. Yeah, make claims. And I love the TikTok thing with all the Chinese people saying, this is how we make your designer stuff at the moment. That's a very good tick tock meme. I like that. Yeah. It's the future, Joe. It's the future Joanne Lockwood: young people of the future. And I'm. I'm envious because I'd love to have another go around. I'd love to, love to have another go around and think, actually, what I know now. Yeah, wow. What I could do with that. Yeah. But hey. And people say, oh, I wouldn't want to be back in Gillian Russell: this time because the social media thinking, no, no, I'm very happily, I'll be 16 again. I'll swap. You can be 63. Joanne Lockwood: Know what I know now. Yeah, let's have another go. Give me another roll of the dice. I could do this one more time. What single thing would you do? Gillian Russell: What single thing would you do differently. Or change like myself today? Joanne Lockwood: So I'm one of these people that if I changed something in the past, I wouldn't be me today, who I am today, my family, my friends, my children, you know, that butterfly wing that changed. But things I would do differently is not smoke or ever start smoking and. And I would recognise how alcohol impacted my life negatively and my weight management. I think those are the health. But all those three things I mentioned are health related, not ambition or good capability. So I think being more mindful of my body from an earlier age, that's probably. It's not regret, it's just if I was doing it again. I've learned in my late 50s that this is how I should be. So, yeah, I think be more health conscious, be more aware of my body because I want it to last a long time and by, by not looking after it, I'm. I've potentially stunted some of my capability. I might even start flossing just because my. My hygienist keeps telling me I should floss every time I go and see her and. Are you talking about guns Gillian Russell: or the teeth? My teeth. Floss my teeth. Floss my teeth. Not flossing. The dust. So I don't get long in the tooth, as I keep Joanne Lockwood: getting told. I'm long in the tooth, though. That's terrible. Apart from that. No, I would. Don't split the small stuff. Believe in yourself. Believe in the kindness and warm heart of other people and keep being the best you can be. I think those are. If you can live by those sort of mantras, then life is what you make it. That's a really privileged thing to say, isn't it? Why not? Why not? You've earned the right Gillian Russell: to be privileged because you've put all that work in before today. Yeah, well, it's Joanne Lockwood: just time served, I guess. Yeah. It's not luck. I don't believe in, bloke. I Gillian Russell: think it's all about what you've done before today to make that butterfly wing thing come together. Yeah, well, we are a product of our environment and our history, Joanne Lockwood: aren't we? So we are here. We are. We are. Gillian Russell: Are we done? Yeah, we're done. Gillian, tell us how to get hold of Joanne Lockwood: you now. Well, you can send me an Gillian Russell: email@transvox.co.uk if you want to do that. You could send me an email to gillian@supportu.org.uk or Gillian, what is it? Gillian Russell, Beyond Reflections. Or you can just go on LinkedIn and just look for Gillian Russell, FRSA and yet another one of those FRSA people and send me a LinkedIn, have a chat, send me something contentious. Let's write an article together. Come and be a podcast guest, come and volunteer, Come and be contentious. Make a difference in the world and I'll help you get. Wow. Joanne Lockwood: Wow. Wow, wow. Gillian, it's been a shit show of a day so far, but you've lightened it up. The sun's come out. It's been great having a chat, so thank you so much. Take care. You'll be good. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want to express my deepest gratitude to you, our listener, for lending your ear and heart to the cause of inclusion. To today's discussion struck a chord. Consider subscribing to Inclusion Bites and become part of our ever growing community driving real change. Share this journey with friends, family and colleagues. Let's amplify the voices that matter. Got thoughts, stories or a vision to share? I'm all ears. Reach out to jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk and then lets make your voice heard. Until next time, this is Joanne Lockwood signing off with a promise to return with more enriching narratives that challenge, inspire and unite us all. Here's to fostering a more inclusive world one episode at a time. Catch you on the next bite.